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Category: Behavioral Finance / Podcast

YFP 237: 5 Financial Moves to Make to Crush Your 2022 Goals

Posted on by yfpadmin


5 Financial Moves to Make to Crush Your 2022 Goals

Tim Ulbrich talks through 5 financial moves you should consider making in 2022 to accelerate your financial plan. 

Episode Summary

Every New Year is a chance to turn the page and reset. That means this new year is the perfect opportunity to refocus those financial goals and clarify your plan and vision moving forward! This week, host Tim Ulbrich is flying solo to talk through five financial moves you should be making in 2022 to accelerate your financial plan or re-energize and remind yourself of the plan and goals you’ve set up. Hear about the importance of setting quantitative and qualitative financial goals and how to strike a balance between both. Discover some ideas for how you can button up your financial record-keeping systems and use the turn of the New Year as a chance to revisit and update those important financial documents. Learn about the importance of a legacy folder, what it is, and why it’s important to revisit each year. Tim also talks through some considerations on optimizing your tax strategy in 2022. He also takes a quick moment to touch on the end of the administrative forbearance, which is right around the corner, and what it could mean for your student loans. 

Key Points From This Episode

  • How to take advantage of this time to reset, refocus, or create your financial plan. 
  • Finding the balance between your qualitative and quantitative goals. 
  • Tim offers to be your accountability partner.
  • How to take your tax strategy to the next level.
  • Updating your important financial documents: what is a legacy folder and why you should get one.
  • Revisiting your student loan game, plus some great resources to help.
  • Set your personal learning plan with our top book and podcast recommendations. 
  • A reminder of the YFP services and community available to support your financial journey

Highlights

“Quantitative goals are really important: we need to be thinking about those and planning for those. But let’s not lose sight of those qualitative goals that help keep us focused on living that rich life today while also planning for the future.” — Tim Ulbrich, PharmD [0:04:14]

“Tax, in my opinion, is one of the most underappreciated and overlooked parts of the financial plan. Think of tax as a thread that runs across your financial plan that must be proactively considered and evaluated when making financial moves.” — Tim Ulbrich, PharmD [0:06:00]

“At YFP one of our core values is optimize you. We believe that when we live as the best version of ourselves, we’re more likely to achieve our goals.” — Tim Ulbrich, PharmD [0:13:38]

“Learning is one thing, but learning plus action plus accountability is where things really start to happen.” — Tim Ulbrich, PharmD [0:14:47]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. Happy New Year. Thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. Hope everyone is enjoying the holiday season, has had a chance to reflect on 2021 and is ready to chart a path forward for 2022. This week, I’m flying solo to talk through five financial moves that you should consider making in 2022 to accelerate your financial plan. 

Specifically, I talk through the importance of setting both quantitative and qualitative financial goals, some ideas for how you can button up your financial record keeping systems, and use the turn of the New Year as a chance to revisit and update those important financial documents, considerations for how to optimize your tax situation in 2022. And, briefly, I talk through some of the considerations around student loans considering the end of the administrative forbearance that is right around the corner. 

Before we hear from today’s sponsor, and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does, in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40 plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner, may help you achieve your financial goals. You can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP planning, these financial planning services are a good fit for you, we know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

[EPISODE]

[00:01:40] TU: Happy New Year to the YFP Community. Let’s jump right in with five financial moves that you may consider in 2022. Now we know that every New Year is a chance to turn the page, to reset. Yes, it’s just an artificial point in time and day that really is no different than any other day except for some tax reasons and for those of you that might have some benefits that are changing compensation and so forth with the New Year. But really it’s any other day of the year, right? However, it’s an opportunity for us that we can take advantage to reset our financial plan, to refocus where we’re trying to go in both defining and achieving our financial goals. 

Perhaps for some of you, you’re listening and saying, “No, I feel pretty good. I feel like I’m on track.” This might be an opportunity to remind yourself of the plan that you’ve set, and celebrating some of the success and wins that you’ve had along the way. For others, maybe you’re listening to this, saying, “You know what, at one point, I had a good plan, but I feel like I’m off track for whatever reason.” This is an opportunity, of course, to reset that course and make sure we’ve got that vision clear heading into the year. 

Finally, for those that are saying, “What plan?” Rightfully so, for many that – multiple competing financial priorities, perhaps feeling overwhelmed with how to best tackle those individual priorities and to put them all together in one plan moving in the same direction. Today is an opportunity to begin to set that path, to put those ideas, those priorities on paper and begin to have that plan for how we’re going to execute those into the future. Let’s walk through five financial moves that you may consider either making or perhaps for those of you that already doing some of these things to refresh or improve in these areas. 

Number one, is setting both quantitative and qualitative financial goals. Shout out here to the planning team at YFP Planning that does an awesome job of finding the balance between living a rich life today and caring for our future self. As Tim Baker says, “It can’t just be about the ones and zeros in the bank account.” As you say, your financial goals for 2020. Yes, let’s focus on those important quantitative things. The things that we talk about often on this show, could be how much you want to move the needle on the net worth or your assets minus liabilities. What we talked about in the book, Seven Figure Pharmacists, is your financial vitals check, or perhaps you’re thinking about how much progress you’re going to make on any outstanding debt, or how much you plan to save and various investment accounts. 

Or for those of you that have been thinking about real estate investing for some time, after listening to David and Nate, on the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, maybe you’ve been thinking about how much you need to save to pull the trigger on that first property. Those quantitative goals are really important. We need to be thinking about those and planning for those. But let’s not lose sight of those qualitative goals that help keep us focused on living that rich life today while also planning for the future. 

Perhaps, we have some newlyweds that are listening, that have a long lost honeymoon to take that the pandemic disrupted? What’s the plan to make that a reality and who is keeping you accountable? Or for some, maybe you’ve been considering making a move to part time or reducing hours for whatever reason. Again, what’s the opportunity here? Have we evaluated that? What’s the plan to begin to see that through? Or how about those interests and hobbies that we used to long for, resuspend time on and prioritized that have gotten lost in the busyness of life and work? How is that going to be a priority and a focus? Perhaps that side hustle business, project that you’ve been dragging your feet on to take the first step on. 

Let’s make this year, 2022, the year that we move the needle on both our quantitative and qualitative goals. While goals are good accountability is where it’s at. I’ve seen the power of accountability in my own life, and I want to see you achieve your 2020 financial goals. Here’s my offer. If you email me with one to two of your top goals, perhaps one qualitative and one quantitative, along with your why and motivation for achieving that goal. I’ll reach out a couple times this year to check in, see how you’re doing and perhaps provide some motivation along the way. You can send me an email [email protected], put Episode 237 with your first name in the subject line, so I don’t miss it. I look forward to hearing from several of you. 

All right, so that’s number one, setting both are quantitative and qualitative goals. Number two is we have to take our tax strategy to the next level. Tax, in my opinion, is one of the most underappreciated and overlooked parts of the financial plan. Think of tax as a thread that runs across your financial plan that must be proactively considered and evaluated when making financial moves. Now, it sounds so obvious, but I used to view tax very much in the rear-view mirror. Filing each year by April 15, to meet the IRS requirements, and to account for what happened the previous year, and ultimately hold my breath and I would either get a refund aka paid too much throughout the year, let someone else hold on my money for a while, or I’d have a payment due. Less than ideal for obvious reasons, and indicative that I could have done more proactive planning. 

So we need to shift our attention from tax preparation to tax planning. A very important distinction, that YFP Director of Tax and IRS Enrolled Agent Paul Eikenberg talked about on episode 233 of the podcast, along with other strategies for how to optimize your tax situation. If you don’t already know your key numbers, things like your marginal tax rate, your effective tax rate, your adjusted gross income. It’s time to nerd out a little bit. Let’s make a commitment this year to start there. These numbers help give us insights in the why tax planning and being proactive is so important. AGI one example, Adjusted Gross Income has important implications on student loan payments, especially for those that are pursuing public service loan forgiveness through an income driven repayment plan and of course, certain phase outs on child childcare credits, IRA contribution, student loan interest deduction, and more. 

Some of the common mistakes that we run into, some that I’ve made myself is, number one, having an unexpected balance due on April 15. Less than ideal. This could be due to under withholding throughout the year, perhaps on accounting for self-employment earnings and tax and unique this year would be for those that have been taking advance child credits and making sure that we’re accounting for that, and expecting that, when we go to file in early this spring. 

Another common mistake that we see, number two is having non-qualified IRA or 401K, 403B contributions from over contributing. This obviously creates a lot of headaches for both the prepare, as well as for the individual to correct and misunderstanding of the rules around Roth and traditional phaseouts, is often what is causing this problem. Number three in terms of common mistakes, would be missing deductions and credits that are applicable. So of course, beyond these mistakes, there’s opportunities to optimize our situation. HSAs, Health Savings Accounts, we talked about this on Episode 165, in terms of the power of an HSA and why from a tax standpoint, this is one of those optimization strategies. 

Other optimization strategies we see that is frequent among clients, would be deducting qualified business related expenses for those that are side hustling or for those that own a business. And of course, the many benefits that are available for those that have children or childcare expenses, including the childcare credit dependent care FSAs, child tax credits in 529. As Paul helped me understand some of the strategies for bunching itemized deductions for further tax efficiency. It’s easy to see the value of a good proactive tax plan and why it’s worth its weight in gold. So for those that have not yet checked out Episode 233, Hot Optimizer Tax Strategy, I hope you’ll do that. 

Also, we understand at YFP that filing your taxes and figuring out how to optimize your strategy can be stressful. That’s why YFP tax this year is opening up its tax filing services to 125 additional pharmacist households. So you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/tax to learn more, put your name on the waitlist and we’ll be in touch from there. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/tax. 

Number three is, button up your financial documents. Not necessarily the most exciting part of financial plan but the New Year is a great time that we revisit things\ like our insurance policies, our savings accounts, retirement accounts, looking at beneficiaries. Is that information correct or do we need to update anything? 

I also think here about the concept of a legacy folder. I first heard of the idea of legacy folder when taking Dave Ramsey’s FPU, Financial Peace University class. I remember thinking, “Wow, it’s so obvious, yet so important.” And something that my wife, Jess, and I had not done yet at the time. Essentially, the idea of a legacy folder, whether it’s physical electronic or both, is a place where you have all of your financial related documents, so that in the event of emergency, others would be able to quickly assess your financial situation, get access to those documents and accounts that pertain to your finances. This type of folder could include things like birth certificates, social security cards, marriage certificates, passports, insurance policies, wills and powers of attorney, login information for accounts and so on. 

I think one of the benefits of putting this document together is, it also tends to spur good conversation that might allow you to also look at other parts of the plan that have been either ignored or just perhaps need to be updated. Speaking of some of the wills and powers of attorneys, we think about the estate planning side of the financial plan. That’s another part I think, about hearing “Buttoning up your financial documents.” If you haven’t yet, listened to Episode 222, Why Estate Planning is Such an Important Part of Financial Plan. We had Nathan and Notesong from Thoughtful Wills, to talk about the different parts of the estate plan, why that’s so important, who should be considering the estate planning process and how that fits in to the rest of your financial plan. Again, not the most exciting part of the plan to think about, but really important, and using the New Year is an opportunity to refresh or to set that information for the first time. 

Number four is, revisit your student loan game plan. Now, what we know as of the first of the year, is that the extension of the administrative forbearance is expiring January 31st, 2022. Now is the time. We’ve got to have a plan in place. We had several extensions of that forbearance dating back to the beginning of the pandemic in March 2020 and all signals are pointing to that, this is the end. Last week Episode 236, certified Financial Planner, Lead Planner at YFP Planning, Kelly Reddy-Heffner joined me to talk about some common questions around Student Loan Refinancing, including who should and should not refinance, how you evaluate multiple offers, some of the considerations for refinance as one of many different repayment options that are out there. And some of the timing questions of when potentially to refinance, as we look at the end of that administrative forbearance period. 

This is a great time. I’ve talked many times on this show, as we reiterated last week, that the decisions around student loan repayment – we think about the average debt of a pharmacy graduate today as around $170,000. We think about not only the amount of that debt, but the various options that are available both federal private forgiveness, non-forgiveness, taking the time to understand the nuances of student loan repayment and to ultimately find and adopt the strategy that is best for your personal situation is time well spent. 

If you’re looking for more information about which student loan repayment option is best for your personal situation, looking for one-on-one help to make that decision, we have a student loan analysis service that we offer. You can learn more at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/sla. This is a one-on-one service that we have with one of our certified financial planners at YFP planning that will help you inventory your loans, federal and private, evaluate eligible repayment options including loan forgiveness, income driven repayment, private refinancing. And ultimately help you determine the best repayment strategy for your personal situation. Again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/sla and you can use the coupon code why YFP for 10% off. 

Number five is, set your learning plan. At YFP one of our core values is optimize you. We believe that when we live as the best version of ourselves, we’re more likely to achieve our goals, and we believe that for ourselves for our team and for you, the YFP Community. So what are some opportunities to learn? Of course, podcasts, you’re listening to this one. For those that are interested in in real estate investing, I hope you have checked out the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast that David Bright and Nate Hedrick are doing a great job releasing episodes each Saturday. Bigger Pockets, another great resource if you’re looking at information resources on real estate. 

Some of the books that might make it to your reading list in 2022. Some of the classics my favorites, Rich Dad Poor Dad, The Millionaire Next Door. A couple other books that have been favorites of mine over the past couple years, The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy, The Truth About Money by Ric Edelman. Tax Free Wealth by Tom Wheelwright, for those that are looking to date a little bit more into the tax strategy and part of the plan. The Automatic Millionaire by David Bach, The Behavioral Investor, by Daniel Crosby. Happy Money, this one by Elizabeth Dunn and Michael Norton, Looking at the Science of Happier Spending. So just a few ideas of ways that you can learn, in terms of personal finance books. 

Certainly learning is one thing, but learning plus action plus accountability is where things really start to happen. My hope is you’ll find a community and you’ll find a coach for accountability and guidance, if you’re not yet a part of the YFP Facebook Group, I hope you’ll join more than 7000 pharmacy professionals across the country that are really committed to helping empower and encourage one another in the financial plan. You can join that group if you’re not already part of it. 

For those that are looking at one-on-one planning, YFP planning offers accountability and customization of the financial plan specific to pharmacy professionals, and you can learn more at yfpplanning.com, you can schedule a discovery call today to see whether or not those planning services are a good fit for you. Thank you so much for joining me. Again, Happy New Year to the YFP Community, looking to a great year that’s ahead. My hope is you will take these five financial moves for 2022 and begin to apply them in your own plan. 

[OUTRO]

[00:15:41] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment, or any other advice. Information to the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation, or offer to buy or sell any investment, or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 236: Gen X Pharmacists: Financial Challenges and Money Strategies

Posted on by yfpadmin


Gen X Pharmacists: Financial Challenges and Money Strategies

On today’s episode, sponsored by Thoughtful Wills, Tim Baker talks through the unique financial needs and considerations of Generation X.

Episode Summary

Often referred to as the sandwich generation, Gen X is a big group of people that’s often set on the sidelines when compared to Gen Y, the millennial generation, and baby boomers. Financial planning can be hard enough by itself, but supporting your young (or not-so-young) children often at the same time as aging parents, all while trying to save for retirement, creates a unique strain on finances that requires some specific financial planning! Today on the YFP Podcast, Tim Ulbrich is here with YFP co-founder, co-owner, and director of financial planning, Tim Baker, to talk through the financial needs and considerations of our Generation X pharmacy colleagues who are well beyond the new practitioner phase, but perhaps not yet at that traditional retirement age. We talk through why this generation has some unique financial challenges and touch on how to tackle the pessimism and inertia that often comes with changing or leaving your financial planning too late. We discuss the challenges this generation face, how their debt position and accrued retirement savings compare to other generations, and some strategies to chart a successful path to independence and stability, despite the tough economic hand dealt in their lifetimes. This episode may focus on a specific age group, but all listeners will hear valuable advice and insights that would benefit anyone!

Key Points From This Episode

  • An introduction to today’s topic of Gen X; the sandwich generation.
  • How Gen Xers are often providing for their parents, plus a young child or a child over 18.
  • How these financial expectations are often overlooked or pushed to the side. 
  • We talk about average incomes, the rising cost of education, and what their debt load is. 
  • The impact of the ups and downs in the last few years on their financial mindsets.  
  • How Gen X wants stability but might not have the financial plan or means to get it. 
  • You can take out education loans for your kids, you can’t get retirement loans.
  • Hear how Tim Baker follows the one-third plan and a reminder of what that is.
  • Relying on the act of planning, versus having a plan. 
  • Some important questions Gen Xers can ask themselves to get financially stable. 
  • Making sure you’re not on autopilot, particularly in your peak earning years.
  • Tackling the fear and inertia of having left it so late in life to start saving and planning.
  • Having empathy for Gen X needing different priorities from the previous generation. 
  • That Gen X really wasn’t dealt a great hand economically, but the problems are fixable. 
  • Reigniting the vision and finding the motivation to do things differently. 
  • Speaking about the lack of confidence in social security for future retirement. 
  • Tim shares a great exercise you can do to check your retirement age and benefits!
  • We discuss the shifting dynamics of generations and the transfer of wealth.
  • Some parting words of encouragement from us here at the YFP team!

Highlights

“[Gen X] is a generation that probably has some of the most important, or probably the most urgent needs in terms of their finances and financial planning.” — Tim Baker, CFP [0:04:34]

“39% feel of Gen Xers feel that they’ll never have as secure a financial life as their parents’ generation. As parents, you always want your kids to have a better upbringing.” — Tim Baker, CFP [0:09:26]

“What can you do for your kids? What do you want to do for your kids in terms of an education plan? At the end of the day, your retirement should take precedence, because you can’t take retirement loans. You can take education loans.” — Tim Baker, CFP [0:15:17] 

“If I’m a Gen Xer and I’m 50, and I know that I have a decade left if I want to retire by 60, you can do a lot in 10 years. You can.” — Tim Baker, CFP [0:25:29]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I had a chance to sit down with YFP co-founder, co-owner and director of financial planning, Tim Baker, to talk through the financial needs and considerations of Generation X; those born between the mid-60s and early 80s, falling between the baby boomers and the millennials. That would be our pharmacy colleagues well beyond the new practitioner phase, but perhaps not yet at that traditional retirement age. 

Whether you are a student pharmacist, or a new practitioner anticipating some of the financial opportunities and challenges that may face you in the future, or you’re a Gen X pharmacist listening, my hope is that you’ll have something to take away and apply to your own personal situation.

On the show, Tim Baker and I talked through why this generation has some unique financial challenges, and is often referred to as the sandwich generation. We discuss the challenge this generation faces and the balance taking care of themselves, their children, perhaps, as well as their parents, how their debt position and accrued retirement savings compares to other generations, as well as some strategies for a Gen X pharmacist to chart a successful path boards, despite some of those challenges that they may be facing.

As we wrap up another year of the show and are knee-deep into the planning for 2022, I want to say thank you to the YFP community for entrusting us with your time, by listening to the show. We don’t take for granted your support and encouragement of the work that we’re doing at YFP, to help pharmacists on their path towards achieving financial freedom.

Also, a big shout out to YFP members Caitlin Boyle and Rose Mercado for the engine behind making them YFP podcasts a reality each week. Caitlin and Rose, your contributions to the team and the YFP community are truly appreciated. Okay, let’s hear it from today’s sponsor, and then we’ll jump into my conversation with Tim Baker.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[00:02:00] TU: This week’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast is sponsored by Thoughtful Wills. Let’s take a minute to hear from Co-Founder, Nathan.

[00:02:08] NK: My name is Nathan Kavlee, and I’m one of the founders of Thoughtful Wills. Our law firm spends a lot of time thinking about the process of estate planning. There’s no way we can get around the yuck of death. Instead, we focus on being lawyers that you’ll actually enjoy working with. We pride ourselves on being approachable. Then, we take the extra time to draft documents that are actually understandable. Then we pair that with technology to make the process cheaper and more convenient. Please visit our website thoughtfulwills.com/yfp and poke around. Then book a meeting with us, please. We are genuinely excited to chat with you.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:46] TU: Tim, excited to have you back in the mic.

[00:02:48] TB: Yeah. Good to be back for a full episode, Tim. How’s it going?

[00:02:52] TU: It is going. We are just a couple days away from the New Year, and hard to believe that we’ve had another year of the podcast, another year of the growth of the YFP community, growth of the team at YFP, and so much to be grateful for as we roll the calendar into 2022, and excited for what lies ahead as well.

[00:03:13] TB: Yeah. It’s been a year of change, I think, with everything that’s going on. I think, all for the good. I’m excited for what 2022 brings in. Hopefully, we can continue to crawl out of this pandemic, and we don’t have too many more of the variants that are shutting things down. I’m excited for what’s ahead, though.

[00:03:33] TU: We’re going to start to dig into this topic, one that we haven’t covered in great detail before. Today, we’re talking about the financial needs and considerations of Gen X pharmacists. I think, it’s worth noting that we’re talking about generations, we’re obviously talking in general generality and general form. Certainly, unique situations are going to apply here. Tell us a little bit more about why we want to delve more into this this topic on the podcast as we look at financial needs and considerations of Gen X?

[00:04:02] TB: Yeah. I think, just like the generation, it’s kind of like the forgotten middle child. When we’re talking about Gen X, we’re talking about a group of about 65 million people that are born between 1965 and 1980. The youngest is in their early 40s, turned 41 this year, and then the oldest being in their mid-50s, turning 56 this year. It’s a big group of people that it’s often set on the sidelines when compared to Gen Y and the millennial generation, or baby boomers.

I think, it’s a generation that probably has some of the most important, or somewhat, probably the most urgent need in terms of their finances and financial planning. This generation, it’s called the latchkey generation. A lot of kids after school would go to this latchkey programs. I’ve also heard him them called, Oregon Trail generation, the Trapper Keeper generation. I have a personal affinity.

[00:04:59] TU: Oregon Trail. It’s good.

[00:05:00] TB: Yeah. I’m technically part of the Gen Y. I’m an I’m an older Gen Y-millennial, born in ’82. Well, my brother was born 80, so he’s a young Gen Xer at the end of ’80. I see both, I feel I fit in between both generations, and I see both sides of it. It’s also often called the sandwich generation, which really entails a Gen Xer taking care of not only themselves, but their kids that are coming of age, but also aging parents. 47% [inaudible 00:05:33], 47% of adults in their 40s and 50s have a parent over age 65, and are either raising a young child, or providing financial support to a young child over 18.

You can imagine, Tim. Before I had kids, I’m like, “Man, I can barely take care of myself. How can I take care of another human being?” That’s what’s going on here as their adult, and as they got to take care of themselves, and then they have to basically take care of parents, and then their kids that are coming of age. It’s a daunting task. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of – I feel like, there’s a lot of negativity and cynicism, not just even around the coverage of Gen X, but even inside of Gen X, as you see some of the things that they experience over time. It’s something that I think needs to be talked about more, because I feel all of the press, all of the language is either for baby boomers, or this Gen Y generation, baby boomers – Gen X are just left on the side.

[00:06:36] TU: It’s really true. It’s something that I’ve observed, since we’re prepping for this episode, is when you hear generational news that’s out there, the millennials get a lot of love. Gen Z gets a lot of attention, baby boomers. This concept of a sandwich generation, a generation that’s often overlooked but has some significant things that they’re facing financially. Hopefully, some things that we can turn into opportunities may get overlooked in terms of the stress and the burden that that group is carrying.

You’ve laid the foundation, Tim, in terms of Gen X. So, people born approximately 1965 to 1980. We’re looking at early 40s to mid-50s, known as the sandwich generation, and between millennials and baby boomers. That concept of being caught between taking care of their children, as well as aging parents.

I just talked with a prospective client earlier this week, young family, two kids under the age of four, going through their own student loan, debt repayment scenario, trying to get investing off the ground, and get some early momentum there. Then also, the prospect of potentially having to take care of their elderly parents in the near future. That’s weighty, right? I think, you and I would both argue from individual experiences, as well as the pharmacists that we talk with all across the country, that financial planning can be hard enough in and of itself, without having to think about an additional burden that might be placed upon something like, having to take care for elderly parents.

[00:07:58] TB: Yeah. I think, this is the start of many sandwich generations, unfortunately. Maybe not unfortunately, but I know, a lot of our Gen Y clients are, they have a bucket of money that’s just like, “Hey, my parents either got me here because they immigrated here.” Or, that’s what our culture says, “My job is to is to make money and take care. I am my parents’ retirement plan.” That’s not just related to Gen X, I think, that’s going to be a common theme in Gen Y and Gen Z.

I think, the difference is that the year – it’s upon us already for Gen X. They’re already doing it. Probably, haven’t really planned for it. The good part about Gen X is that they’re approaching their peak earning years. On average, they make more money. I think, I think the average household income was something like, in the $130,000s or something like that. On average, they make a lot more than baby boomers who are winding down, or they’re already retired. Then Gen Ys are still – and we know in pharmacy, it’s a little bit different.

Average net worth for – if you’re if you’re clocking this average net worth, I think I saw a number out there, it was about a $168,000. That’s not a lot, especially if you’re thinking you only have 10, or 20 years left to work, if you’re going to retire in your 60s, that type of thing. I think, the one thing that came out to me when I was looking at this was, 39% feel of Gen Xers feel that they’ll never have a secure as a financial life as their parents’ generation. Which, and that’s one thing is like, as parents, you always want your kids to have a better upbringing. 

I think, the other thing that is interesting about Gen X, as you’re looking at the data, and just some of the editorial comments, they are sandwich in terms of – they have a lot of the consumerism that baby boomers had. It was like, Gen X spends more than any other generation in terms of consumer goods, but they also got hit with the rising cost of education. Now not to the degree where pharmacists are coming out today. We have charts where the income was pretty close to what the debt levels are for a PharmD, and then the PharmD debt just raced by the income.

I think, to a lesser degree that the debt, and obviously, they’ve had years, a decade, or more of paying, 15 years of paying off student loans. I think, the biggest portion of what they’re seeing in terms of debt loads are coming in the form of mortgages, credit cards, auto loans. But also, still having those student loans. 

Unfortunately, Tim, we see a lot of pharmacists that are in this generation that haven’t put that big of a dent into their student loans at all, because of I think, the construct of “Hey, you just pay the least amount and you drag it on forever.” Unfortunately, you’re left with a large sum, even 10, 15 years into your career, 20 years of your career, unfortunately.

[00:11:07] TU: Tim, one of the things I was thinking about recently, I graduated in 08, was that – 13 years ago or so, that was shortly after the requirement to the PharmD. This group, most of them, unless they went back and got – PharmD would have been in the BS period, before the PharmD was required. One of the things I’ve been reflecting upon is that I graduated in 08, obviously, the recession of 08 was what it was. I was in residency making $31,000 and didn’t have a whole lot of focus, or attention on savings. I didn’t really feel that very much, even though I observed it and lived in it.

All I know, is what has been a pretty wild market ever since then, that’s only been on the up and up overall, obviously, outside of some dips and so forth in between. I often think like, “Man, what kind of overconfidence has that led?” Potentially, not only my situation, but others that are in that window that have graduated in the last 13 years and have not experienced a significant downturn and has had that real impact, where you’ve accumulated savings, and you’re like, “Oh, my gosh. This is real.” I see the dip.

We look at this generation, they’ve been through the dot-com bubble. They’ve been through the 08 financial crisis, and they’ve been through what has been the wild, last couple years on the market, since the beginning of the pandemic, in terms of the ups and downs, and even within a given week, ups and downs. What impact do you suspect that has had in terms of their approach to savings and investments?

[00:12:35] TB: Yeah. I think, it’s had a great impact. I think, it was often documented that a lot of Gen Xers were very, very much educated, but underemployed, especially dot-com. Talk about swings of wealth in markets in dotcom. Then, the subprime mortgage crisis. I think, it’s led to a lot of asceticism, and a lot of the – some of the rhetoric that you see. 

I guess, to bring my point full circle, what I was trying to compare to go back to that real quick. Baby boomers, no student loan issues there, but spent and had mortgages and things, car loans and things like that, credit card debt. I think, notoriously not having been great about saving for retirement, and I think, so security’s going to definitely help them. I think, Gen Y have been more adverse to home buying and taking on a big mortgage, and less consumer debt.

Whereas that, with Gen X, you’re seeing the ugly on both sides. You’re seeing the student loans, but you’re also seeing some of the other – that other debt it’s piled on. I think, with regard to investments, I think, that I saw a stat that Gen Xers, they’re thinking, “Yeah, we probably should be –” I think, the number was like, “We’ve probably should be saving 11%.” It’s probably closer to 20%, where they’re at in their career, if you count all of the things that you should be putting in to retirement. I think on average, they’re saving about 9%.

I think, some of the things that you’re seeing that baby boomers are working more into retirement and they don’t have confidence in their money lasting, I think, you’re going to see that compound with Gen X, unfortunately. I think, one of the things that often will buoy the Gen Xers is, as that wealth generation or wealth transfer happens, so baby boomers dying off, you’re going to start to see windfalls that are going to fix some of the ills, unfortunately, that happen.

It’s having a plan for that, and having a plan for that windfall. Gen X wants stability, but they’re not necessarily doing a lot to help their financial future. I think, what they’re just trying to do is get through the day in terms of like, “Hey, I have to take care of myself, my parents.” Then, I’m also looking at, and the whole – we can have a whole other discussion just about education and sending your kids to college, and not experience – Sometimes that, your own experience can color that for your kid. You have some people that are like, “I never want my kids to have an ounce of student loans.”

Or some people would say like, “Hey, I had to deal with it. They have to, too.” There’s no right or wrong answer, but it’s really cutting through that and understanding, what can you do for your kids? What do you want to do for your kids in terms of education plan? At the end of the day, your retirement should take precedence, because you can’t take retirement loans. You can take education loans, and hopefully, they start to figure out how to make this a little bit better, which again, that doesn’t necessarily help. It might help our kids, Tim, in the future, but it’s not going to help Gen Xers whose kids are in college, or approaching that age right now.

[00:15:43] TU: Yeah. Jess and I were just talking about that the other night, of really fighting against some of that gut and emotional reaction of wanting to over – potentially, over-contribute on the college side at the expense of other things, because of the pain we felt in our own journey, and how front and center that is.

[00:15:58] TB: Well, and I just got an email from Ohio529. They’re like, “Hey, if you put this much in, you can max out your $4,000.” Yeah. I’m like, “All right, well, we have this plan” but I’m torn to say like, “Okay. How can I get that just for the tax benefit?” Again, I think, people sometimes do things for the good of the taxes, or at the detriment of their financial plan. I mean, it’s never a bad thing to, I think, save for the future expense that hopefully will be there in the form of college.

At the same time, I had to take a step back and say, well, this is not really what Shane and I talked about in terms of our – what we want to do. And we follow that that one-third plan, which I think we’ve outlined in previous episodes of, one-third is going to come from our – the 529s that we’re saving. One-third is going to come from hopefully, that’s something I can cashflow, as our kids are in college. That present income in the future, if that makes sense. Then one-third from hopefully, scholarships, grants, and then last but not least, loan. 

That’s ours. Again, at the end of the day, we’re making sure that we’re trying to fill that retirement bucket, because we want options. We went options as we approach retirement to say, “Okay, we want to work until this, or not have to work, or whatever.” To me, that’s something that the Gen X generation is also dealing with. I think to, again, it’s more into a heightened degree. One, because I think resources are scarce. You’re just dividing up between many more people, because typically, bigger households, and then we talked about again, taking care of parents and things like that. Yeah, I mean, it goes back to relying on the act of planning, versus having a plan. I think, that’s definitely something that Gen Xers should look to do if they’re grappling with all these different issues.

[00:17:53] TU: Yeah. I think, as we’ve talked about many times on the show, and something I know, we both worked through personally, and I sent it in the individuals that we talked to that are considering coming onboard as clients of YFP Planning. Sometimes there’s just so much emotional stress that we carry around related to financial planning, because of all of these things that are swirling in our mind.

We’ve talked about, many of them here is really, to Gen X in terms of debt that might be hanging around, thinking about the college for kids, or grandkids, caring for elderly parents might behind on retirement. Should I be thinking about diversifying other revenue streams? The list goes on and on. So much value from my perspective of the planning process, and what you’ve done, even with Jess and I is, “Let’s get all of these out of our head, onto paper. Let’s talk through them, let’s prioritize them, let’s beat them up. Think about how they fit in with the bigger vision of the plan and where we’re trying to go, what we’re going to try to do. Even if those numbers don’t change drastically tomorrow, we’ll get there over time.” Having that plan just provides an incredible amount, I think, of confidence, and hopefully, at some level, some peace as well.

[00:18:59] TB: Yeah. The plan touches so many things. We touched briefly on the investment retirement stuff. You could talk about just that whole thing for Gen Xers. It’s like, okay, what does retirement look like? Is it early? Do we have dollars that we can access, if it is early retirement? If it’s not, what’s the plan for that? Is the asset allocation correct? Are you working with an advisor and paying too much in fees? What are they actually doing for you? We’ve got a lot of clients where it’s like, when the comparison of what we do at YFP, which versus what an advisor somewhere else would do. It’s a different offering.

Again, I think, that the nice thing about Gen X is that they’re not shut out of the game of financial services, like Gen Y. Because Gen X, at least has investable assets that can be managed, and that’s typically what advisors look for. If you have negative wealth and no money to invest, most advisors will say, “I can’t help you.” Gen X doesn’t have that, and so you have that problem, because if they’ve changed careers that they’ve accumulated money in their IRAs over time, they do get attention. Is it the right attention, is what I would I would argue?

The other thing that we haven’t talked about, that’s about this is, is the protection stuff or the financial plan. Over time, things change. Are your life and disability safe? What are the deductibles? Do you need umbrella policy? We could probably go back to the episode that we have Cameron Huddleston on, which is, Mom and Dad, We Need to Talk.” Not just having a state document for you and a state plan for you, but your parents. 

It was also, it could be where you are to a point, as a Gen Xer, where there is more that you can potentially give and maybe, there’s charitable intentions and could be a lot of – sometimes we see Gen Xers that have worked some of these things, it’s that big-pot-of-money syndrome. It’s like, “I have $80,000. I have money in my investments. I have $80,000 in savings account.” Okay, what’s this money for? What are we earmarking it for?

Then, if we’re expecting inheritance, what’s that going to be used for? Have we reviewed our emergency fund lately? There’s so many things here that, I think, Gen X, especially as they proceed through and they’re approaching their peak years of earnings, just need to make sure that they’re not on – I hear autopilot all the time when it comes to a financial plan. There’s typically, tons of things to look at, and do and plan for, and assess. As you’re taking care of parents and sending kids to college, and the one thing we haven’t talked about is taxes, and what that looks like, there’s just a lot – there’s just a lot on the plate.

To me, it just goes back to the idea of sitting down, and building out a plan, but then engaging in the act of planning. As the years go on, and you’re in this last decade, or two of earning, so you can set yourself up for the best retirement that you can.

[00:22:02] TU: Two resources, Tim, I want to point folks to that build on some of what we’ve been talking about here. You mentioned that interview with Cameron Huddleston, who wrote Mom and Dad, We Need to Talk. Great conversation I had with her about how to effectively talk with your parents about their finances. So many good takeaways that I’ve been able to apply in my situation. That was episode 108. We’ll link to that in the show notes.

Then the second thing, we’ve been talking a little bit about kids’ college education, and that was episode 195, where we talked about how to save for your child’s education. That highlights some of what you were sharing in the “thirds” approach. Tim, one of the things I want to ask you about is, I suspect many in Gen X, you’ve given some data here about folks that may not be on track “statistically” or what they think they should be in terms of retirement savings. There’s probably that lingering feeling of like, I’m behind. I’m also maybe trying to pay off some student loan debt, but I’ve got all these other competing expenses that are taking on some of the priority as well.

The question here relates to how to get past that inertia of feeling behind. The best time to invest would have been 20 years ago. The next best time is right now. How do you begin to coach folks through not having that mindset, or approach of like, “Well, at this point I haven’t done it. Therefore, I’m not going to be able to get to that goal anyways.”

[00:23:20] TB: Yeah. I think, I equate it to for some people, it’s like going to the doctor. You don’t want to go to the doctor and talking about, like if you smoke, or if you’re overweight, or things like that. You have this block that, that you know that the answer is bad. There’s this feeling of being judged. I think, from the professional standpoint, we’ve seen it. We’ve seen a lot of things. Just like, doctors have seen it all. It’s not about that. It’s just about changing course, and saying, “Okay, this is what happened, or this is what’s happening. How can we make this better? How can we proceed?”

The thing that, and I hear this all the time, even from clients that we have that are younger, that are in their 20s. I hear throughout all the generations. Really, it’s like, I’m never going to be able to retire. I’m always going to be working. I think for Gen X in particular, because of some of the downfalls in the market, and the investment in education, being under employed, at least from the beginning, that is that pessimism. There was a study by, I think, it was T. Rowe Price that said, 12% of Gen Xers say that they will retire before age 60. Compared to 26% of millennials.

Millennials are more optimistic about that. I guess, to bring it back in terms of where to start, my belief in financial planning is very – it’s very absolute. Meaning, I think, if you engage with a professional, an objective third-party that has your best interests in mind and is really rooting for you to achieve the goals that you want, I think if you do that for years, we have people that really do well with their financial planning in a span of a year, or two, or even three. If you can imagine stacking a deck – If I’m a Gen Xer and I’m 50, and I know that I have a decade left if I want to retire by 60, you can do a lot in 10 years. You can.

If you’re a younger Gen Xer, if you’re 41, if you’re my brother’s age, 1980, and you have say, 20 years, or even 25 years, there’s just so much that you can do in 20 years. If you’re stacking intentional years of working on your financial plan, and thinking about it and revising your goals, and making adjustments and protecting yourself and having those conversations of like, “Hey, is this what I really want? Am I on track?”

There’s this feeling. I think, sometimes it happens with our clients, even just through the first meeting, where they just look at and they can see their balance sheet and all of their things. Then even more so, the second meeting, we’re actually talking about what are their goals, what is a wealthy life for you? Just to have that exercise, to go through that exercise, I think, is empowering. Then it’s like, “All right, let’s get to work and actually get into the financial plan.”

I look at as a very much a glass half full. Whereas, I think, a lot of people, it’s a glass half empty. We know that inertia is a thing. You’re more likely to do what you’re doing currently, than to take the leap to do something different. I think, to answer your question that you originally answered, I think it’s – You have to get over that, because at the end of the day, you’re going to have to get over it, eventually. Whether it’s in your 40s, or if you’re in your 60s, where you have to actually plan to say, “Okay, can I shut this income stream off, that is my livelihood?”

Because eventually, you can’t do the work as a pharmacist in your – It’s really hard to do. It’s a demanding profession. To me, it has to come sooner, or later. Then as a planner, I would advocate sooner. I would just think of it from a – I’m just thinking of it from a patient’s perspective. I’m sure, lots of pharmacists work with patients, which have those anxieties. If you approach it as well, they’ve probably seen it all, which we have, then just have solace in that that you’re not going to be judged, or it’s more about moving forward from here than anything. That’s the best I can – advice I can give.

I know, I get it. I understand. No one wants to be judged, or a lot – sometimes we double down, because pharmacists are your doctors, you’re educated. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re a doctor of money, right? We put that on ourselves, or PharmD’s put that on themselves that they should know better, or things like that. I think, that’s crap, to be honest. I think, Gen X, again, you were dealt a not-great hand, because you’re in that sandwich, where baby boomers, my parents are baby boomers, they’re like, “Buy a house. Don’t have credit card debt.”

I didn’t necessarily want to buy a house right away. That was what you did. You got the best education. You would pay whatever you could to get the best job. You buy a house and you have kids, and that’s it. That wasn’t for me. I feel like, Gen Xers were still put in that. They had that appetite for the non-student loan debt, but then, they also had the student loan debt that baby boomers didn’t experience.

That’s the thing that I have to – I would say, it’s cool. That’s where you’re at in terms of the run of things. I think, millennials learn from baby boomers and Gen X, and more like, “I don’t want to rush into marriage, or a house, or things like that. I want to figure this out first.” You had a little bit more, I think, leeway even than Gen Xers did, because Gen Xers, again, because of all the different recessions and things like that.

I think, that’s where, and even things like forgiveness. Gen Xers are probably looking at forgiveness and they’re seeing all these things come off the board here, all these loans. PSLF and things like that.

[00:29:46] TU: I wish. I wish.

[00:29:49] TB: That would have been nice. Because back in my day, shake their cane. Back in my day, this is how – I had to walk uphill to school and the stone -those are some of the things that you weren’t afforded those, because I think, it was President George W. Bush that put that into effect back in the early 2000s. That’s the thing, Tim, is it’s not a great hand. I think, at the end of the day, it’s what you make of it going forward. Again, the nice thing about Gen X is that a lot of these problems, I think, are fixable, because there’s still time. There’s still time. They’re approaching, peeking earning years, like I said. Again, it’s more of the process of planning and making sure that what they’re doing is what they want to do.

[00:30:32] TU: Yeah, the thought that comes, too, Tim, is it’s a great opportunity to re-ignite the vision. I think that, I’m thinking about all the issues we’re talking about that are getting thrown at Gen X. It’s fair that you might feel beaten down and you feel like, “Man, I’m behind, or I wish I’ve done this, or I wish I’d done that.” To reignite the vision a little bit of, okay, where are we trying to go? What are we trying to achieve? Hopefully, that provides some motivation to get over some of the humps to be able to accelerate the plan into the future.

One other thing I want to ask you about, Tim, we’re going to come back and talk about a lot of these in more detail into the future. This episode is really meant to lay the foundation of some of the financial issues that Gen X is facing. We’re going to come back and talk about social security in great detail in the future, which I think is relevant for folks that are in benefit, for folks that are getting ready for benefit decisions, and for even younger practitioners that are maybe asking some questions around, well, how do I factor this in? What might this mean in terms of my long-term planning savings?

I think, there’s a little bit for everyone to learn as it relates to social security. Tim, from Gen X’s perspective, talk to us about confidence in social security, or lack thereof, and how this may factor into some of what they’re working and facing through?

[00:31:48] TB: Yeah. I think, there’s a T. Rowe Price article that basically, said that there’s very little confidence in social security. I think, it’s something 56% of Gen X expects that social security will be bankrupt by the time they retire. A full 73% agree with the statement that I’m expecting some security benefits when I retire, but nothing as generous as what today’s retirees get. I think, there’s two different things at play. One is, will social security not be there at all when I retire in 10, or 20 years as a Gen Xer? Versus, will it be there, but at a diminished amount?

I’m in the camp that I think, social security will always be there in some form or fashion. I do think that it’ll be either funded with a tax increase, or like a payroll increase, or something like that. Or it will be a diminished benefit, either pushing out for retirement age, or just a lower amount.

I think, an exercise, a good exercise for a Gen Xer, and I just did this recently just to check is to go on this socialsecurity.gov website. You can sign in and actually, see what your full retirement age is, if you retire at this age versus this age, what your benefit would actually be. If you have all the quarters that you need to do to qualify for social security. I think, this warrants probably a full episode, but the confidence is not there.

I hear it. Baby boomers, they feel pretty good about it, because a lot of them are approaching – already drawing on it. Gen Xers, very cynical about it. I think, Gen Y is like, “Yeah, I’m not counting on it.” At the end of the day, and we plan as if it’s not going to be there. At the same time, I think, it will be and I think it’ll be a much lower percentage of your retirement paycheck than the average American. It’s going to be there nonetheless. It’s just a matter of what would that be? At the end of the day, I think, it’s always smart to plan for retirement as if it’s going to be you all the way.

I don’t see it going bankrupt. I think, there’s a lot of people that I respect and following the industry that says, “It’ll be there. It might be a diminished benefit.” At the end of the day, it will be a part of your retirement paycheck, Gen X and even Gen Y as we proceed here.

[00:34:09] TU: Tim, this reminds me a little bit of some of the discussion around loan forgiveness. Not to say there won’t be changes or challenges to social security. I think, this has been well-documented, but some of the fear and angst around public service loan forgiveness. We have to think about, to, what would be the fallout if the plug got pulled, right?

I mean, there’s a lot of people, especially with social security, more so than loan forgiveness that, I mean, that would – especially if you’re 10 years away or less to retirement. That’s a big deal. Might there be transitionary phase, or smaller changes made along the way, same thing with loan forgiveness. We talked about making sure objectively evaluating some of those risks, considering them, but also, looking at some of the upside of the plan.

I like your suggestion and solution of, “Hey, let’s plan as if it may not be there and perhaps, even running some best case, worst case, middle of the road type of scenarios, and seeing how that fits out in terms of other savings that we have, and how social security would be complemented by that.”

[00:35:04] TB: Yeah, funding aside, it makes sense. I wouldn’t be surprised, because we live longer. I think, we’re just living longer. It makes sense for us to work longer than previous generations, because people just live in longer. I think, the fallout of – what we said about the loan forgiveness is that people are on track to count on this program. For the government to say, “Hey, psych, just kidding.” At a minimum, I think it would be grandfathered in. I think, if social security would ever go away, which I don’t think you would ever would, but I think it would at least be grandfathered in, in terms of a new account on this. Anybody born after year 2100 or something like that, then maybe that’s not.

I think, a lot of people, because we are really poor at saving for our future, it’s a necessity that I think, needs to happen. It’s a forced way for us to save for retirement. We pay for it out of our paycheck, so we have to save for retirement. One of the things that was a big headline, as baby boomers were going to retire, is they were going to bankrupt the system, right? I read, I think, somewhere that Gen Xers will outnumber baby boomers, by I think, year 2028. That’s not too far away.

I think, the dynamics in the numbers are changing. There’s going to be, again, a big transfer of wealth from generation to generation, which again, could buoy some of these years. I’m not necessarily doing a great job of saving for the future. Again, that would be where I would have a plan for that. I remember, my parents received a small inheritance, and I think, they redid their kitchen. If that’s a goal, then that’s great. I would also want to make sure that everything is on the up and up in terms of retirement. That’s going to be more so the case for Gen X pharmacists, where they have to go further to save for their own retirement, because the social security benefit, it’ll be there, but a much smaller percentage of that paycheck that you’re going to build in retirement. I think, you’re going to want to have the 401k and the IRAs, and some of these other accounts there to build that out.

Yeah. I think, Tim, it’s probably one of the things that we should probably dedicate a few episodes on is, just that whole picture of what that looks like in terms of security and some of those other things that are going on as you’re approaching retirement age.

[00:37:26] TU: Great stuff. Tim, again, intention here was to do somewhat of a high-level overview of some of the financial issues and challenges facing Gen X pharmacists that are in the YFP community. We’re going to dig into some more of these topics in the future. For those that are listening to this episode, and you find yourself thinking about many of these different priorities financially, whether you’re currently working with a planner, looking for a second opinion, not working with a planner, we’d love to have the opportunity to talk with you to see if the services at YFP Planning are a good fit for you. You can schedule a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Again, as we get ready to turn the calendar into 2022, just another thank you to those that take time out of their schedule each week to listen to the podcast. We don’t take that for granted. We appreciate the feedback, and the encouragement that we get. If you have ideas for future episodes, we’d love to hear from you. Wishing everyone a happy and healthy New Year and looking forward to seeing everyone in 2022.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[00:38:23] TU: Today’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast was sponsored by our friends at Thoughtful Wills. If you haven’t created your estate plan yet, we urge you to reach out to Notesong and Nathan. They draft custom estate planning documents, like wills, trusts, healthcare directives and durable powers of attorney that fit your situation and reflect your wishes. This is key. These are custom legal documents created and reviewed by actual attorneys.

Thoughtful Wills created to cut to the chase packages, designed for pharmacists who are ready to get their estate planning in order. You’ll really appreciate their dedication to approachable lawyering, and they charge about half of what most law firms charge for the same documents.

These documents are such a gift to your loved ones. If you haven’t created them yet, please just get it done. Reach out to Notesong and Nathan by going to thoughtfulwills.com/yfp. Go ahead and book a meeting with them. They’ll take such good care of you.

[END OF EPISODE]

[00:39:20] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment, or any other advice. Information to the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation, or offer to buy or sell any investment, or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 232: How Mindfulness and Money Intersect with Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz

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How Mindfulness and Money Intersect with Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz

On this episode, sponsored by Thoughtful Wills, Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz discusses the intersection between mindfulness and money.

About Today’s Guest

Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz is one of the first national board-certified health and wellness coaches in the United States. She received her coaching training through Duke (University) Integrative Medicine and served as an instructor in the advanced certification program. Cynthia offers training and coaching in mindfulness, health, and wellness on a private practice basis through Being in Balance Coaching.

Cynthia speaks frequently on topics related to mindfulness, resiliency and well-being, work/life integration, time management, and health behavior change. She also shares this information on her blog, Pharmacy Work/Life Matters (www.pharmacyworklifematters.com).

Cynthia has more than 20 years of experience in mindfulness-based practices. She has studied and attended trainings with a number of prominent teachers, including Jon Kabat-Zinn, Kristin Neff, Sharon Salzberg, Elisha Goldstein, Thich Nhat Hanh, and Pema Chödrön.

Cynthia received her pharmacy degree from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and completed a residency in hospital pharmacy at Rhode Island Hospital in Providence, Rhode Island. Before moving to Ann Arbor, Cynthia held increasingly responsible positions at several national pharmacy associations, including the American Society of Health-System Pharmacists, National Association of Chain Drug Stores, American Society of Consultant Pharmacists, and American Pharmacists Association.

Episode Summary

In the last few years, a much-needed light has shone on the issues of resilience, burnout, and wellbeing in the pharmacy industry and we are finally seeing strategies of mindfulness and meditation entering mainstream conversations in an impactful way. But can these practices extend into the realm of financial wellbeing too? Today we are honored to sit down with the enigmatic Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz, pharmacist, coach, consultant, and mindfulness expert, to discuss the intersection between mindfulness and money. A solopreneur, Cynthia has always had a personal interest in stress management, time management, and continuing education. In this conversation, she shares how her 20 years of training in mindfulness and meditation apply to her monetary plan and behaviors. The listener hears how her financial struggles early in her career led her to implement changes and behaviors she still depends on today, as well as a simple outline of how to practice meditation to stay in the present moment. Plus, we’ll touch on evaluating the root cause of overspending and over saving and why having a healthy balance is important. This crucial episode explores the intersection of pharmacy, mindfulness, neuroscience, and balanced living – and how the financial piece fits into all of that. Tune in to begin your mindful money journey today!

Key Points From This Episode

  • Getting to know Cynthia, starting with the pivots and arc of her career.
  • Discussing how her 20 years of mindfulness training began intersecting with pharmacy.
  • How the topics of burnout, resilience, and wellness have only recently gained traction.
  • Cynthia shares her turning point from irresponsible money management to intentionality.
  • Using the analogy of the Weight Watchers approach to get real with your spending.
  • A step-by-step outline of how she first took control of her finances.
  • How our relationship with money has changed in the age of automation and plastic.
  • Defining mindfulness and how meditation trains us to live in the present moment.
  • The various purposes and ways meditation can be practiced.
  • Debunking a common misconception about meditating.
  • Exploring different ways to use breathing as an anchor for your attention.
  • How mindfulness meditation is like a bicep curl.
  • How being present and mindful is key to making the right decisions with your money.
  • Peeling back the onion of our emotional baggage and unconscious script around money.
  • The importance of acknowledging our underlying fears and getting curious about them.
  • Dealing with the changing goalposts on the question, “Do I have enough?”
  • The concept of hedonic adaptation; we get used to what we already have.
  • Setting yourself up with a solid foundation and then giving yourself permission to spend.
  • Cynthia shares some resources from her website, and some exciting future offerings!

Highlights

“Think about mindfulness as the ability to pay attention to what is happening in the present moment.” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:25:12]

“About 50% of the time, we’re either thinking about things that have already happened, or we are planning or rehearsing for things that have yet to happen. Only about half of our time is focused on what’s actually happening right in front of us.” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:25:40]

“Shift your thinking about meditation. Think that the objective is that your mind is going to wander and your goal now is to notice that it’s wandered and to bring it back.” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:27:36]

“The idea is to train your attention. You sit in meditation, you focus on your breath, you realize that your thoughts have wandered away. That is your win. Your win is that you’ve noticed and then you return your attention, and then you wait, you notice again.” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:28:47]

“So much of what we do with money is automatic, unconscious, or conditioned.” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:30:44]

“You should have some amount of money that you feel comfortable setting aside, but that you are setting aside specifically for fun, for now, for doing things. Because you don’t want to get further along your life journey and regret not having done things.” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:42:10]

“Set yourself up with a solid foundation. But once you’ve got that foundation, give yourself the permission to have some enjoyment. Otherwise, what is all this for?” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:43:21]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Cynthia’s Recommended Books

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had a chance to sit down with pharmacist, coach, consultant and mindfulness expert, Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz to discuss the intersection between mindfulness and money. Some of my favorite moments and takeaways from this episode include Cynthia sharing how her training in mindfulness and meditation applies to her financial plan and behaviors. Hearing her share how her financial struggles early in her career led her to implementing some changes and behaviors that she still depends on today, and evaluating the root cause of overspending and over saving and why having a healthy balance is important.

Before we hear from today’s sponsor and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one on one with more than 240 households in 40 plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one on one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor that helps make this show possible and then we’ll jump in my interview with Cynthia.

This week’s episode of your financial pharmacist podcast is sponsored by Thoughtful Wills. Let’s take a minute to hear from co-founder, Notesong.

[00:01:40] NT: Hi, there. I’m Notesong, one of the founders of Thoughtful Wills. Our law firm specializes in creating custom estate planning documents that are understandable. We’ve leveraged technology to offer a lower price point than most law firms. Honestly, it’s refreshingly affordable. As our client, you’re in the driver’s seat. We’re here if and when you have any questions or just want our input. Our explanatory worksheet and online interview gathers your answers whenever and wherever is most convenient for you.

As a busy mom of three sweet kids and two fluffy sheepdogs, I totally get it. Life is crazy busy. Who has the time? We designed our firm around that too and we poured our hearts into making our estate-planning process less of a hustle. I invite you to visit thoughtfullwills.com/yfp to learn more. Give us a jingle or drop us a note. We’d love to chat with you.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:39] TU: Cynthia, welcome to the show.

[00:02:40] CKD: I am so excited to be here with you today.

[00:02:44] TU: I am as well. Our paths have crossed several times over the last decade through various pharmacy circles. I’m grateful for the opportunity to talk with you about the work that you’re doing to explore the intersection of pharmacy, mindfulness, neuroscience, and balanced living and how the financial piece fits into all of that. Certainly, a very important topic. Before we jump into our discussion around mindfulness and money, tell us more about your career path in pharmacy, both the work you’ve done up until this point, and what you’re now doing with your blog, consulting, and mindfulness programs and coaching.

[00:03:18] CKD: Sure, thank you. Well, I got a pharmacy degree at the University of North Carolina and I came out of a bachelor’s degree program. Choices weren’t necessarily as clear cut back then. The residency programs were really just starting up and there was such a thing as a post-baccalaureate PharmD. A program that was an add-on after a bachelor’s in pharmacy. Not sure that I wanted to pursue the PharmD pathway at the time, I did a residency in what at the time was called Hospital Pharmacy. During the year of the residency, and then the few months that I worked as a staff pharmacist at the hospital, didn’t really think that was my calling.

Fortunately, though, while I was there, there was an ad in the newsletter for the American Society of Health System Pharmacists. They were looking for someone to join the editorial staff of AJHP. If there is one thing I am confident in, it is my editorial ability. I applied for that job, and was fortunate to get it and that moved me to the Washington DC area, to my initial job in a pharmacy, in one of the national pharmacy associations. And I spent then the next, oh gosh, 15 or so years working for various – probably closer to 20 years working for various national pharmacy associations. I worked first for AJHP, and then briefly with NACDS, and ASCP, the American Society of Consultant Pharmacist. Then finally with APHA.

It was while I was on staff with APHA that I met my husband on a parking lot shuttle bus at Dulles Airport. We got married, and he was at NIH wrapping up a fellowship and he took a position at the University of Michigan. That relocated me and him to Ann Arbor, Michigan, where I live now. At the time, this is the late ’90s, I was a telecommuter for a while to APHA. But I mentioned the year just because at that point, telecommuting wasn’t possible the way it is today. I did a lot of – it was like I had a remote office and I went to travel to headquarters maybe once every two months or so. But it was very challenging at the time being a member of a team but not being physically present with the team.

Then I took a brief detour with the University of Michigan College of Pharmacy as their director of experiential training, and decided that really wasn’t my calling. And ended up – this is, by the way, a very – I’m trying to make this as fast as possible, this summary. I ended up at that point making the decision to work on a freelance basis. At the time, I was able to work to do a lot of freelance work with APHA. When I had been a full-time staff person, I actually would manage some people who were working on a freelance basis. They would do a lot of the actual content development meant work on programs. I would manage that development. Now, I flipped to the other side. Now, I was the person developing much of the content and someone on staff was managing me.

Because of the contacts I had made along the way, and especially because I had a history, I neglected to mention that much of the work I did in various pharmacy associations was in the area of continuing education. Because of that background that I brought to freelancing, I was able to both work on, again, like this content development for programs, but also occasionally, associations would contract with me to manage some program of theirs. For example, right now, one of the things that I do is manage the student pharmacist P&T competition for the Academy of Managed Care Pharmacy.

I do a lot of different things. In my work, it’s just – I think the easiest way to describe it is that I have a freelance business, and I get contracted to do various kinds of projects, mostly in the area of continuing education. But as you see, that single sentence has a lot that goes into it. That is kind of where I am at now. I still do that kind of freelance work. Now, along the way, going back to the time that I still lived in Washington, DC, and before I started working on it as a solopreneur. I had always been very personally interested in stress management, and time management and in those areas. One of the things that I was introduced to, again, toward the late ’90s was this idea of mindfulness. At the time, kind of very closely connected with meditation. I was introduced to meditation and mindfulness. This is back at a time when many, many people, most people I encountered had no idea what I was talking about and meditation was something still a little bit off the beaten path.

[00:08:58] TU: There was no head headspace and tools, ain’t that right?

[00:09:01] CKD: There was no headspace. There’s none of that. As a matter of fact, most – when I wanted to learn more about this, when I wanted to get more training, to get more understanding, first of all, all of the training that I went through early on, really was rooted in the concepts of Buddhism. I differentiate it from not really what I think of as Buddhism as a religion, but Buddhism as a psychology. It was rooted in these Buddhist concepts, and I really had to go to retreat centers, and especially a place up in upstate New York called the Omega Institute, where I would go and study with teachers.

Over the years, I have studied with teachers like Jon Kabat-Zinn, who is very closely connected with mindfulness in our country, and who is the developer of Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction program. I’ve done workshops with – I’m dropping these names for any of your listeners, any of the listeners who might recognize them. I’ve done workshops with Pema Chödrön and with Thich Nhat Han. I dropped those names in because, at that time, those were really kind of the leading teachers in mindfulness. I mean, they still are. Then some American-based teachers like Sharon Salzberg and Jack Kornfield, so those teachers.

It wasn’t nearly as easy, or as – I want to say plentiful, the instruction available. I started doing that and again, pursued it over all the years, really on my own. And I would tell some friends about it, and I would make some offers here and there to speak about it. Say, “Hey! I think this is really – I think pharmacists would get a lot out of the information that I’m learning here in this – as I called it my parallel life.” I would be met sometimes with a little bit of eye-rolling or a little bit of like, “Yeah, sure.” Really, not much would come of it. But then I feel like it was around 2018, 2019 and I feel like all of a sudden, in pharmacy, we exploded with the concept of burnout, and resilience, and wellbeing. Not that it wasn’t always there, not that we weren’t paying attention to it. But to me, all of a sudden, it burst forth as an issue that many, many people were engaged with and paying attention to. I remember, at the time, around one particular meeting, I think, saying to a friend who was involved with the meeting, “What do you guys think I’ve been doing for 20 years? Like all of these practices that are right, that are being discussed now and starting to be shared. This is what I’ve been training in for 20 years.”

I have this strong background in mindfulness-based practices and the psychological underpinnings that go with it. And I have increasingly been trying to bring those forth to pharmacy audiences. I do that in one way, in the blog I started, Pharmacy Work Life Matters. And because now I feel like there is some interest. I am also starting to develop some e-courses related to some of these topics, that I hope to launch early in 2022.

[00:12:45] TU: Cynthia, I think you’re spot on. My observation matches yours, that burnout, resilience, wellness have become topics that – they’ve been there in the profession, but there’s definitely been a light that has been shown on those topics, and that we’re having more discussions around. We’re obviously very much interested in the work that we’re doing at YFP, around the connection of the financial part of that. I think and believe from personal experience in talking with many, many pharmacists all across the country, that there is a financial thread that certainly transcends some of these issues of burnout, resilience.

Your career story is relevant, because you shared with me previously that you felt like early in your career, you didn’t necessarily have a good approach to your financial plan, you weren’t necessarily as intentional as you would have liked to be, or at least looking backward, have liked to be. After being in a rut for a while, with spending more than – you ultimately were hoping to achieve the other goals you had in mind, that you had to make some drastic changes for how you are going to manage your money. That you still use some of those techniques today. Tell us more about that journey for you individually and how you realized that you weren’t on the right path financially.

[00:14:02] CKD: Absolutely. Tim, you introduced that topic very kindly. I will be far more blunt in my retelling of it. I got out of pharmacy school, as I said pharmacy school, did the residency. During pharmacy school and I would even say during the residency, I feel like I was kind of on top of – essentially on top of my money stuff. With the residency, kind of getting like that, like half pay I think of it as. Our salary was about half what we’d be making if we had been on a staff pharmacist. It wasn’t like I had a lot of room for error there.

Then I took the position and move to Washington DC and I think a switch clicked in my head that “Hey! I’m earning money now. I’m going to be – it’s my time to be spending money, finally. Finally, I’m a free and easy high earning gal.” I really wasn’t internalizing the reality that how much I was making at the time, while it was a very respectable salary was not a salary that went really, really, really far in Washington DC, especially as a single person. As a single person, I mean, I was living alone. No one was sharing the cost of rent, or food, or any of the basics that we all have.

Bluntly, I overspent and I got myself into – not only do I overspend, but I also didn’t really have a good system set up for keeping track of bills and paying bills. Now, we are scrolling ourselves back to a time where this was all paper-based, right? This I think is before the internet. Bills would come in, I would sort of get busy doing fun things, I would forget about them and then, oops, my phone would get turned off. Or I would realize, “Oh! Oops! I didn’t really plan well, this month. Let’s delay writing the check for this payment for a little while.” I don’t remember what it was, what like my rock bottom was, that point I hit that just made me say, “Okay. Something’s got to change.” But it was like, really, like there was a time when I realized that my internal discomfort about how I was managing this finally got the better of me.

What I ended up doing was a technique that – I don’t think I got it from Weight Watchers, because I don’t know that I had ever been enrolled in Weight Watchers at that point. But it’s a technique that is often shared with people who are trying to get better acquainted with – get on top of a situation that they’re in. That technique being that you write everything down. Just the way in Weight Watchers for many years, I think still you are encouraged to record everything that you eat. I started recording every single thing I spent money on. It, of course, quickly became apparent that I was spending too much. This is back in the days when this was mostly cash. I shouldn’t say mostly cash, it’s probably a mixture of cash, credit card, and cheque. But it was not nearly as fast or easy to spend money as it is today.

I started writing down everything that I spent. Then as the next step, I created a budget for myself, which was just the kind of budget that is recommended to create. It was putting down all of my mandatory expenses, the fixed expenses, I suppose. How much was my rent? How much should I budget for food? How much was phone and electric, and all of those? Then, what did I have left at the end of the month? I made the decision at that point that whatever was left at the end of the month was what I had to spend. There was no more spending ahead on a credit card. I treated all of my money essentially as cash. Then, I would never carry a credit card balance again. Actually, to this day, I have never carried a credit card balance. Because a credit card balance, let’s face it, it’s a loan, you’re essentially borrowing money that you don’t have, to pay off at a future time.

I don’t mean to summarily dismiss the utility of credit cards or why you might want to carry a balance. But for my purposes, it was just irresponsible money management. It took – back when I had joined Weight Watchers at one time, this is back at the time when Weight Watchers was encouraging the – essentially what was at that time the American Diabetes Association exchange approach to meal planning, where you counted everything you ate as like a certain number of proteins, a certain number of – I think they call them starches, vegetables, fats, fruits and you had this allotment every day. What you did at the time with Weight Watchers was, this lunch was two proteins, three starches and you colored in your little blocks. At the point that you ran out of blocks, you were done for the day.

During my first few weeks at Weight Watchers, I realized that I had eaten, as I viewed it, all of the good stuff by lunchtime. And all I was left for dinner was vegetables, and it had to be steamed vegetables because I’d already eaten all of my fats. I couldn’t put butter on or anything. After a couple of weeks of this, again, you have a little meeting with yourself in the mirror and say, “Cynthia, if you’re ever going to have anything other than steamed vegetables again, for dinner, you have to figure out a way to do this differently. You have to figure out how to apportion this stuff during the day.” It was the same thing for me with money management.

I realized, “Okay. You are trying to spend far more than you actually have available as your disposable income, so you’ve got to put the brakes on this.” Also, something I would say very, very importantly, that I did at the time, and I go back and I thank my younger self constantly for making this decision. Which is when I was putting – when I was tightening up on my finances like this, when I was really ratcheting down and saying, “Here is really what I have left for my fun stuff at the end of the month.” I made the decision, in addition to retire to 401k deductions, I made the decision to start saving 10% of – I can’t remember at the time if I did it as 10% of what was essentially like my net salary but before bills, or if it was 10% of what was left. But I have a feeling it was the higher one. In effect, I decided to kind of decrease my salary, my take-home pay by 10%. I just squirreled that away, I had – I set up automatic deductions to mutual funds and just never saw that money.

You can imagine over the years, that compounded quite a bit and I’ve been able to do so many – that money made so many things possible for me, because it was money just sitting there that I treated as money I didn’t even really have to spend. I did that as well. After a couple of months of that, I figured out a way to regulate myself to understand like, really, this is what you’re dealing with every month. Let’s just say it was, you have $50 per week to spend, just free and clear on whatever your heart desires here. This is clothes, this is entertainment, this is whatever, whatever might – what I think of as the discretionary spending.

I just had to, I was going to say resign myself to that, but it’s more that I had to align myself to that. Then along the way, as I would get raises, my little pot of money would pop up as I would then run through that budget cycle again. Oh, yay! My fixed expenses haven’t gone up that much, so now I have more discretionary. At least once a year, I would revisit this budget, I would keep really careful records, or at least save the record so I now knew on an annual basis, this is how much I spent for say, the phone. Which these days, I feel like phone costs are more fixed than they were back then. Back then, my bill would vary from month to month, because long distance was unpredictable.

I would figure out how much I had spent over the year, I would divide that by 12 and that’s what I would budget for the following year, and then keep a very close track on that to see. But it was very much this paying attention. Paying attention and understanding exactly what it was that I was dealing with, rather than hoping, which is what I had been doing. Just hoping that what I had was covering what I was doing. And it wasn’t. I had misplaced hope.

[00:23:26] TU: And intentionality just screams through that story of tracking, and paying attention, and automating your long-term savings. As you alluded to, some of that is, I think, more challenging today. When I hear the concept of mindfulness and money, I really think about this idea of making intentional choices that are not just happening. Ones that we think about, we perhaps feel on some level, we can attach an emotion to it. Let’s be real, this is so hard today with everything, essentially being automated and on some level, being transactional. That automation does have value if we can take advantage of it. Some of the things that come to mind, Cynthia is, plastic instead of cash. We never see or feel our paycheck, direct deposit, that we can connect it to the work that we’re doing. We’re saving for the future without the physical act of passing over money and making that conscious decision to delay something now for longer term. Even debt repayment, it’s a number on a screen. You alluded to me before in a conversation that you have a strategy to learn to pause, and not just spend, or save or whatever we’re working on and to make financial decisions in a way that are intentional, that we’re thinking about it and we’re experiencing it.

Tell us more by what you mean by that and if there’s a strategy that you employ for how to actually do that in a day like we’re in today, where so much of this is happening automatically and so quickly.

[00:25:01] CKD: Absolutely. That is, in essence what mindfulness is. I’m not going to offer up any of the official definitions of mindfulness right now. I’d say, think about mindfulness as the ability to pay attention to what is happening in the present moment, maybe elaborating a little bit on this concept of present moment. Our minds naturally wander into the past or into the future. If you ever sit and think about or try to notice what’s happening in your head, there was one study that characterized it that probably about 50% of the time, we’re either thinking about things that have already happened, or we are planning or rehearsing for things that have yet to happen. Only about half of our time is focused on what’s actually happening right in front of us.

If you think about mindfulness then as the ability to be able to focus your attention on what is happening in the present moment, and to notice that your mind has wandered off somewhere else and to bring it back to this focus on the present moment. That is what, to me, that is what meditation trains. It’s not the only thing meditation does. Meditation can have a lot of different purposes and can be practiced in many, many different ways. I believe that for most people, especially most people who are starting out with meditation, unless they are specifically seeking, say spiritual enlightenment, or they are specifically practicing loving, kindness, meditation for various reasons – the most useful application of meditation is meditation that teaches us to notice when our thoughts have wandered, and to return our attention to a point of focus.

If there is one common misconception I encounter when I talk with people about meditation, it is the idea that the goal of meditation is to make your mind go blank or to try to keep any thoughts from coming into sit in this kind of blissful, no thoughts arriving state. And then people get very, very discouraged. They get discouraged when they realize that they’re sitting in meditation and their minds have wandered. They feel like a failure, “I can’t do this. I’m no good at this.” Well, so then what I would say to you, Tim, and what I would say to anyone listening is, shift your thinking about meditation. Think that the objective is that your mind is going to wander and your goal now is to notice that it’s wandered and to bring it back.

Typically, the traditional focus of attention is the breath. That is typically the focus of attention, because our breath is always with us. There are different places where you can experience breath. You might feel the sensation of breath entering your nose, or you might focus on the exhalation and the feel of breath, say like at the top of your lip, or you might focus on just your – as we say in yoga and in meditation, like the belly. Your belly rising and falling. You don’t just have to focus on one thing. You can even count your breaths. You can make it a more cognitive thing. If you’re having trouble with the sensations.

That’s why the breath is often offered up as the first point of focus. You focus attention on the breath and you can find these kinds of meditations in Headspace, in Calm, I’m sure, in any of the online apps. You can find, I mean, in any of the apps, you can also find them online, in many different places. The idea is to train your attention. You sit in meditation, you focus on your breath, you realize that your thoughts have wandered away. That is your win. Your win is that you’ve noticed and then you return your attention, and then you wait, you notice again. As meditation teacher Sharon Salzberg has said, “It doesn’t matter how many times your mind wanders, what matters is how many times you notice and bring it back.”

Then, what you’re doing in meditation – now meditation is more kin to a bicep curl, let’s say. You are training a particular thing. Like with a bicep curl, you’re making your bicep stronger. So that when you are not at the gym or holding a weight in your hand, you will be better equipped to lift something heavy or whatever else your bicep will do for you. The same thing now with meditation, by sitting in meditation, which can – there’s actually a study that just came out this week. Ten minutes a day is a fine amount of time for this kind of formal practice. You are now strengthening your ability during the day to realize that you’ve been carried off somewhere or to realize that your thoughts are not in the present moment.

One quote that I will share with you is from a psychologist named Miles Neil, who has said that “Mindfulness can help us naturally resist the pull of our automatic, unconscious, or conditioned patterns of thought, emotion, and action.” I’ll say that again really quickly, “Mindfulness can help us naturally resist the pull of our automatic, unconscious, or conditioned patterns of thought, emotion, and action.” That to me, is where now we have mindfulness intersecting with money management. Because so much of what we do with money is automatic, unconscious or conditioned. With automatic and unconscious, as you mentioned, there are things we do out of habit. There are things that happen that we’re not even paying attention to these days, especially as you so aptly noted.

We also bring forth with us from childhood really conditioned patterns around money. We all have grown up with money attitudes and those can’t help but affect the way we manage money as adults. Mindfulness can help us realize that we have either started to get – we have fallen into an automatic habit or that something’s happening that we’re not even paying attention to. For example, we are about to – we might notice we are about to hit, click yet again on amazon.com. Not like I’m speaking from experience here, or anything. We maybe will notice, though, that we are about to one click and we can insert a pause. We bring our attention back and we say, “Wait! Okay. Hold on. What’s about to happen? Is this really what I want to do?” If for no other reason than to potentially save yourself a trip out to Kohl’s or Whole Foods or wherever you need to dump off your return these days?

[00:32:15] TU: Yeah. I think so as you’re talking, I’m reflecting on how exhausting this internal dialogue can be. You mentioned minds naturally wandering, you mentioned a study that 50% of the time or so maybe we’re present. I was thinking about financially, that seems generous. I think that because of some of the emotional baggage, whether that’s from childhood, money scripts that we carry, whether it’s societal pressures around money. I think it’s even maybe that much more difficult. I was thinking about, what are some of the things in the last 24 hours that have been on my mind financially, and things that were coming to mind questions were – just being aware of them like, are we saving enough for retirement? Or, counterpoint, maybe are we saving too much at the expense of experiences and enjoying the present moment? Should we be paying off the mortgage fast? Are we investing in enough experiences for our family? Are we on track with our kid’s college expenses? What’s the game plan for the next car? Have we appropriately protected ourselves from an emergency?

What really is disturbing as I – even just more aware of that is like, we have a plan for all of those things. Like we’ve thought through them, we’ve planned for them. On one hand, I look at those questions and I’m like, “My gosh! That’s frustrating. I talk about this daily, like I feel like we’ve got a good plan.” But I think that acknowledgement is so important, like just being aware, aware of some of those things, and then start to peel back the onion of like, “Where does that come from? What is the root of some of those feelings and pressures?” I think for me, personally, as I start to get two or three layers deeper, I can then start to uncover where is the fear or anxiety coming from this. Often I’ve uncovered it’s not rational, and then I can see it for what it is, and really try to address it at that. But I really feel like that awareness is such an important first step.

[00:34:14] CKD: Well, Tim, you’ve just hit on a really important concept, which is that – I think you are spot on that when you start peeling back some of these things, almost always what we find at the bottom is fear, some kind of fear. The more we can be present to what is going on, we can notice what’s going on and then as you were describing, can start to investigate what’s going on. We probably will eventually get ourselves back to some kind of fear and then we can explore the fear. What is this fear? And as you said, is it irrational fear?

I still, with everything I know about both mindfulness and actually money because I’ve – after my initial, let’s call them the follies of my youth, I have done a lot of self-teaching about money management. I’ve learned a lot from financial advisors, various things over the years. I feel like I am pretty financially literate. But even now, I seem to harbor this deep-seated fear of ending up pushing a shopping cart around with my few remaining belongings, because I have no money. Now, where does this come from? It fascinates me. I didn’t grow up – I grew up in a pretty firmly middle-class family. We were not wealthy, but we never wanted for any – I don’t remember ever wanting for anything as a child. Why is this a fear? Unless this might just be like the fear of public speaking. It’s one of the fears that we’ll end up with no money, for no rational reason.

[00:35:55] TU: Yeah. That’s a really good point, Cynthia. I think something I often ask myself is, where does this come from? And again, getting more to that root cause. I think that in my experiences financially, and working with many pharmacists, and even my own journey, we often talk about overspending and we talked a little bit about some of the automation that can make that challenge. We’re not feeling those expenses, perhaps we can pause, that might help some of that. But I also see folks, myself included, that have challenges on the other side of the spectrum with which is giving themselves permission to spend. I think we’re getting some of that here, as we talk about some of the fear anxiety, is there ever enough? But here’s the thing, is there ever enough? I mean, that is a – we can crunch some numbers and do all of that. But that feeling, if you’re not really trying to uncover what is the source of that and determine, is that a rational thought or not? That can be crippling.

I think that’s another component that we need to be thinking about around this conversation of mindfulness is both, not only behaviors that allow us to become successfully long-term, making sure that we’re taking care of our future self. But as Tim Baker, our director of financial planning says so well, it can’t just be about taking care of our future selves. We also have to make sure that we’re living a rich life today. I think there’s a balance here, correct?

[00:37:14] CKD: Absolutely. The concept of whether it’s enough, “Do we have enough?” That is such a difficult, a such a difficult and fraught topic. Because first, I’m sure you’ve gathered during our conversation that I am further along in my life journey. I’m a little bit older. When I was first starting out, when I made – when I sort of got myself back on the right track, and especially was absolutely contributing to a 401k plan to the point where I would get the match. Like I maxing out what I needed to do. I think at the time, we were being advised like – let’s say it was 10%. If you’re saving 10% of your income. Then somewhere along the line, it seemed to ratchet up to 20%.

Then lately, I’ve been getting things from one of the mutual fund companies I invest with, where they have this thing like how many times your salary should have saved at various points in life. I remember looking at where I was and how much I was supposed to have saved. Let’s just say I was shocked, I won’t repeat the exact thing I said out loud. Let’s call it shock. I thought, I don’t have that. I can’t possibly have that. You can’t spring that on me now. Because I don’t – I don’t have any more time to do that. Then somebody else send out a different graph and I looked like I was fine. So then I calmed down a bit.

I share that little anecdote just as an illustration that one, it seems like the goalpost is constantly being moved on what constitutes – I’m making air quotes here – that you can’t see enough. Then another thing that we all have to contend with is this, I think it’s innate, the concept of hedonic adaptation. We get used to what we have and then it feels like it’s not enough. I grew up in a home that was not very large and now I live in a house that I think is about 3,000 square feet. When I moved into this house, I think I we’ve lived here for about 20 years now. This place seemed cavernous to me, and it’s just me and my husband. Now I walk around and think, “Oh my gosh! This place is so small. Really, I think we need like 4,500 square feet.” We don’t.

It’s like, because you get used to what you have, or you see what other people have, and you start to feel again, “enough”, that what you have is not enough. You start always looking for the next thing. It’s very, very challenging to settle yourself around this notion of enough. My feeling is, if you are, if you are following the advice of rational experts, if there is some fight – there tends to be standard financial advice out there, about things you should be doing. If you’re doing that, you are probably as well set as you can be, is my feeling.

Now, using one of my weight loss analogies, again. I had at one point enrolled in Jenny Craig, because I had gained a little weight, I wanted to lose some. And it occurred to me, you know, what, Jenny Craig just handed me the food, and all I have to do is eat it and it worked. One of the things, though, that I really appreciated about that plan was that every day, I had a treat, they just worked it in that every day you had something that was, as I see it, absolutely no nutritional value whatsoever. It was just fun. That’s something I carry forward in now my just, you know, eating regular food again. I carry that forward with me.

Every day, I allot about 10%, 15% maybe of calories to something that I just want, you know. Whether it’s my sugar cookie flavored popcorn, or a cookie, but I have to keep it in that calorie allotment. I can’t eat a pack of cookies. I can eat my 150 calories worth of cookies. What that does for me, and what I believe it does, in general, we will move this over to money in a moment. But it, first of all, means that you don’t build up this sense of deprivation. Like I can’t eat cookies, I’m not allowed to eat cookies. As a matter of fact, I eat cookies every day or whatever it is, and I give myself permission to do that and I enjoy it.

Knowing that you have that, it’s a bit of a treat, but it’s not an excessive amount. That, I believe that same concept can be carried over, should be carried over to money management. You should have some amount of money that you feel comfortable setting aside, but that you are setting aside specifically for fun, for now, for doing things. Because you don’t want to get further along your life journey and regret not having done things. I don’t mean that, again, it’s this balance between – I’m not saying overspend, because “Woohoo! We don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow.” I mean, obviously, we don’t, but that doesn’t mean you every year go on around the world cruise, and sink yourself further and further into debt. It does mean that you have if you have allotted a pot of money to this, enjoying the present, then spend it. Because if you save it up, it’s just more money that you’re saving. Maybe you’ll spend it one day, but maybe you won’t.

As long as you’ve taken care of everything else, right? As long as, you know what I mean, Tim, as long as the things that you would be advising people to do, that I think you, and the podcast, and just everything you’re doing does so beautifully. Set yourself up with a solid foundation. But once you’ve got that foundation, give yourself the permission to have some enjoyment. Otherwise, what is all this for?

[00:43:31] TU: You said it just beautifully. I mean, that is something that our planning team, I think does such a tremendous job with the clients, which is – if we put the two spectrums, yolo on one end and squirreling money away, we’re miserable and we wake up 30 years from now, and you’ve got $4 or $5 million.

[00:43:48] CKD: It’s going to go to your children.

[00:43:50] TU: Yeah. We’ve got to find this balance between taking care of our future selves, making sure we’re living a rich life today. One step further on that, I would encourage folks, we do this a lot with the clients of YFP Planning is, actually setting up some of the buckets that name those funds accordingly, and allows for that visual permission to spend. One of the powerful things, if you’ve got all your money in one account, and we’re not separating – okay, this is earmarked for normal monthly bills. This is earmarked for emergency fund. But this small sliver, whatever that number is earmarked for those things that really derive some of the greatest joy or experiences, or give – whatever would be, those splurge type of items that folks like to do as well. Giving yourself the permission to spend is also incredibly, incredibly important.

Cynthia, this has been fantastic. It’s a conversation that I’ve been wanting to have for so long, because it’s something that I’ve been wrestling through as a topic individually for several years. I think, in this industry where we talked so much about X’s and O’s of the financial plan, I think this is such a refreshing aspect as we think about the intersection between mindfulness and money. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Where can folks go to further connect with you and learn more about the work that you’re doing?

[00:45:09] CKD: Absolutely. Sure. First, let me thank you. It has been such a pleasure to share this information. I look forward to sharing more of it. I mean, I am now getting to the point where I’m hoping to share more where people can actually access it outside of me, say speaking at a meeting. If you visit my main website, which is cynthiaknappdlugosz.com – are you going to have that written out somewhere?

[00:45:37] TU: We will. We’ll link it in the show notes.

[00:45:39] CKD: Excellent. That’s a lot of letters that I really hesitate to try to like spell out for people right now. If you visit cynthiaknappdlugosz.com, that will show you a couple of tiles that are the main things that I do. I mentioned earlier, I’m a solopreneur. I have the kind of a whole bunch of buckets really, as we were talking earlier. I have a bunch of different buckets that I do. On that page, you can click over to or you can visit directly my blog, pharmacyworklifematters.com. On there, you can sign up. I think I call it “Sign up for my newsletter” or “Sign up to be alerted to posts.”

I am working on converting that to an actual newsletter, where, originally I was just sort of letting people know, “Hey! I finally posted another blog post.” Now, I’m moving that to an actual newsletter, where I will start alerting folks to things that I am about to be doing or launching. One of the first things I am working to get up is what is going to be a free, I think I’m fashioning it as a four-week introduction to mindfulness and meditation, where I’ll try to set you up with a meditation practice. The kind specifically that I’ve been talking about that is focused on training attention. When I say four weeks, it’s just that every week, I’ll introduce something new and then you will be able to practice it during the week. Like I said, if you sign up for that newsletter, I will start announcing things through there and at least, that meditation program will be free. I look forward to seeing you.

[00:47:12] TU: Great stuff. We will link both of those in the show notes. I hope folks will check those out. I’m personally looking forward to the meditation mini-course, course, whatever you want to call it. Count me in as you launch that.

[00:47:23] CKD: Fantastic.

[00:47:23] TU: Again, appreciate your time and for sharing some of your insights and expertise on the YFP podcast. Thank you so much.

[00:47:29] CKD: Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.

[OUTRO]

[00:47:32] TU: Today’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist podcast was sponsored by our friends at Thoughtful Wills. If you haven’t created your estate plan yet, we urge you to reach out to Notesong and Nathan. They draft custom estate planning documents like wills, trust, healthcare directives, and durable powers of attorney that fit your situation and reflect your wishes. This is key. These are custom legal documents created and reviewed by actual attorneys.

Thoughtful Wills created two cut-to-the-chase packages designed for pharmacists who are ready to get their estate planning in order. You’ll really appreciate their dedication to approachable lawyering and they charge about half of what most law firms charge for the same documents. These documents are such a gift to your loved ones. If you haven’t created them yet, please just get it done. Reach out to Notesong and Nathan by going to thoughtfulwills.com/yfp. Go ahead and book a meeting with them. They’ll take such good care of you.

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it’s not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 230: 5 Steps to Get Ready for a Home Purchase

Posted on by yfpadmin


5 Steps to Get Ready for a Home Purchase

On this episode, sponsored by IBERIABANK/First Horizon, Tony Umholtz talks through five steps for getting ready for a home purchase.

About Today’s Guest

Tony graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants, and the New England Patriots. Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay, and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine, and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Episode Summary

If you are considering purchasing a home in the next six to twelve months, today’s episode with mortgage manager Tony Umholtz will equip you with the information you need to prepare for this exciting journey. Tony shares his knowledge about the importance of understanding interest rates, where to find the most up-to-date information on those rates, how to determine your home-buying budget without the lender setting it for you, and criteria used by the lender to calculate your maximum loan amount. Tony also shares the best time to get pre-approved and things to look for in a lender when going through the home-buying process. The discussion covers the five key steps to follow to ensure that you are ready to purchase a home including, understanding the landscape, knowing your budget, getting pre-approval, choosing a lender, and knowing which documents you need to provide once the property is under contract. If you have questions about interest rates, the difference between pre-approval and pre-qualification, the various types of lenders that you can work with, the pros and cons of putting a 20% down payment on a home, the 28/36 rule, or anything to do with credit scores, you’ve come to the right place!

Key Points From This Episode

  • Why now is a good time to buy a home.
  • Where you can find out the average interest rates in the home loan industry.
  • Tony explains what discount points are and why you need to understand them.
  • The importance of reading the fine print.
  • Know your budget!
  • How lenders determine how much they are going to lend.
  • What the 28/36 rule is.
  • Tony runs through the pros and cons of a 20% down payment.
  • How savvy investors look at returns.
  • Comparing pre-approval and pre-qualification.
  • The value of a credit report.
  • How lenders work out your credit score, and why this differs from what you will see if you use a monitoring service.
  • Examples of the different types of lenders that exist.
  • Information that you will need to provide to the lender you choose once you have a property under contract.

Highlights

“Lenders look at your gross income. We don’t factor in your after-tax income.” — Tony Umholtz [0:09:23]

“I’m a big believer in being diversified.” — Tony Umholtz [0:10:51]

“The higher your credit score, the better your rates tend to be.” — Tony Umholtz [0:23:12]

“There are advantages and disadvantages for every type of lender that’s out there. So, it’s good to know, get some recommendations, and also to compare the products and make sure it’s a fit for you and that you feel comfortable with the group that you’re working with.” — Tony Umholtz [0:27:20]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrick here and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had a chance to welcome back onto the show Tony Umholtz, a mortgage manager for IBERIABANK/First Horizon. During the interview, Tony and I talked through five steps to getting ready for a home purchase. So, for those that are listening and thinking about a home purchase in the next 6 to 12 months, this episode is certainly for you.

On the show, we discuss the importance of understanding interest rates and how you can find the most up-to-date rate information. We also discuss how to determine your home-buying budget and the criteria used by the lender to determine your maximum loan amount. When is the best time to get pre-approved and what is the difference between pre-approval and pre-qualification? And finally, what to look for when shopping around lenders and going through the application process.

Now, before we hear from today’s sponsor, and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one on one with more than 240 households in 40 Plus states. YFP planning offers fee only, high touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one on one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning’s Financial Planning Services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, IBERIABANK/First Horizon and then we’ll jump into my interview with Tony.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[00:01:42] SPEAKER: Does saving 20 percent for a down payment on a home feels like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20 percent for a down payment may take years. We’ve been on the hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home with a lower down payment and are happy to have found that option with IBERIABANK/First Horizon. IBERIABANK/First Horizon offers a professional home loan option AKA a doctor or pharmacist home loan that requires a 3 percent down payment for a single family or townhome has no PMI and offers a 30-year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $540,250. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii. To check out the requirements for IBERIABANK/First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to start the preapproval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/homeloan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/homeloan.

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:02:46] TU: Tony, welcome back to the show.

[00:02:48] TU: Tim, thanks for having me. Always good to be here.

[00:02:51] TU: Excited to jump into this episode, you’ve been a frequent guest on the show. Last episode we had you on was episode 216, where we talked about common credit blunders to avoid when buying a home. We’re going to link to that in the show notes and dig in some more detail on that topic as well during this episode. So Tony, give us the update. What are you seeing out there in the housing market? It’s been a wild year, right?

[00:03:14] TU: It has been a crazy year. It really has been. A lot of the same things we’ve seen before in the past, the inventory levels are still fairly tight and rates are still low. The one thing I will mention is you know is more of a timing thing for the time of year in the season we’re in, is the autumn in the fall is typically – there’s a little bit less buyers out there. We have Thanksgiving and the holidays around Christmas. Typically, there are less buyers, a little bit less competition. So, it’s often a better time to buy because there are less buyers you’re competing with.

[00:03:51] TU: I think that may be true for many folks in our community that perhaps we’re shooting for a spring or summer home purchase. Maybe they got delayed because of the inventory issue that is well known that’s out there. So today, we’re going to be digging into five steps that folks can take to get ready for a home purchase. We’re going to be talking through evaluating loan options, finding a lender, saving for a down payment, and running the numbers for your budget. So, if you’re thinking about buying a home in the next 6 to 12 months, this episode is really designed for you. If you think combined is in your future, whether that’s now or down the road, my hope is you’ll be able to pull some tips and lessons away from this episode to help you prepare for that journey.

No need to take notes. You can head on over to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. We’ve got an extensive resource at that site. You’ll be able to check out a lot of what we’ve referenced today. So Tony, five steps to get ready for home purchase. Number one, know the landscape. So, before you’ve been shopping around for lenders, it’s helpful to have a general idea of what’s going on in terms of mortgage, interest rates, what the market is. So, what do we generally seeing right now Tony, and knowing these, of course are subject to change, and where can someone go to research those rates?

[00:05:05] TU: Well, it’s a good question here, Tim. The first step, just to kind of get a very broad view of the landscape would be, you can actually go to Freddie Mac, freddiemac.com, and Fannie Mae, they actually post rates, but it’s an average rate. So, it’s an average industry rate. You can also find it like in The Wall Street Journal. Clearly online, you can find it but you would look for the weekly average rate, and by Fannie or Freddie Mac. Freddie Mac quotes typically have points in them. So, you do have to look at the fine print with that, that it’s an average rate, kind of a consensus of the industry to tell you where rates are, like a rough idea of where they are, but they’re often quoted with points. So, keep that in mind, because your lender may quote you something the same or a little higher, but it does not have points. That’s just kind of a good place to start, Tim.

[00:05:58] TU: Tony, I’m looking at those rates right now. So, at the freddiemac.com/pmms, we’ll link that in the show notes. So, showing 30-year 3.14 percent, 15-year 2.37 percent, a five-one-year arm, 2.56. And then what’s neat about this is you can look at the trends over the year, 3 years, 5 years, 10 years. And then also let you know what has changed within the last week or the last year. I didn’t know that about points in terms of how these are reported. Some folks may be looking at these and not thinking about the points or what that means in terms of expenses for them. So, just give us a quick definition of points and why it’s important that folks understand that as they’re trying to compare rates, and perhaps get to that apples to apples comparison.

[00:06:41] TU: Sure. Points are actually called discount points. They’re an upfront fee that the lender will charge and it is often a charge in the form of prepaid interest. And that helps you get a little bit better interest rate. But that is a percentage of the loan amount. So, it can be costly. Let’s say, it’s 0.3 percent of a loan amount, if you’re borrowing $400,000, well, that’s $1,200 in additional fees, you’re going to pay if you were to obtain that loan. So, you do have to be aware of points in fees as that is a big component. And then lenders all have different origination fees. That’s another segment of the costs and those are things that you want to look at too, because not all rates are equal, right? There are a lot of pieces of mail people will get. I’ll just leave it at that. There’s a lot of mailers you get with that will quote these really low rates, but then if you read in the fine print, you’ll see how much fees are charged. So, you really want to be aware of that because your payback period could be so long, and it makes no sense to pay points, and often it doesn’t.

[00:07:49] TU: So that’s number one, know the landscape. Number two, a topic we’ve talked about before when we’ve had you on the show, know your budget, and before thinking about pre-approval, it’s important to know your budget, as well as knowing how a lender is going to determine what they’re going to borrow to you in terms of that home-buying purchase. And those things can be an often perhaps should be different as you evaluate what fits in your budget and the lenders looking at what they’re comfortable in terms of you borrowing. So, down payment isn’t certainly is not the only cost. But Tony, talk to us about lenders, in terms of how they determine how much they can lend to individuals or to couples. And I think here, it’s worth talking about the 28:36 rule.

[00:08:37] TU: Sure. I mean, this step is is critical, right? You clearly want to review your own budget and know what you can and can’t afford, because even if a lender can qualify you for a certain payment, that may not be something you’re comfortable with, so it’s very important to evaluate your own budget. Lenders do look. There is, obviously, the 28:36 rule, and this ties back to what lenders can qualify you for, but often we can qualify people up to a back-end ratio, which is a total debt ratio of 45 percent, sometimes even 50 percent with enough down payment. So clearly, we can often maybe qualify you for more than you want to borrow.

The other component to this too, that’s very important to know is that lenders look at your gross income. We don’t factor in your after-tax income. So, that’s another method that we all look at in our industry. We use your your gross income that you report on your W-2, or the gross income before taxation. Same thing if you’re self-employed, we look at your gross income prior to to income tax. So, that helps people buy homes and afford homes, but it is a factor to consider when you’re running your budget. But historically, those numbers, we do go a little higher. Nowadays, instead of 36 which is – I think, let me just dive into what that means.

So, the 28 percent is called the housing ratio. That’s the total amount of your monthly income that is allocated to a home payment, like a mortgage payment on a home. And that mortgage payment includes your principal and interest, and your taxes and insurance, and any other HOA expenses you might have. So, when you buy a home, you had your principal and interest payment on the mortgage, you have property taxes, that you typically pay 1/12, so a monthly amount of the total amount of property taxes on a monthly basis, and then your insurance. So your homeowners insurance.

And then some communities have what are called homeowner’s association fees, that might be $100 a month or $100 a quarter, just depends on where you live. And those are all part of the housing expense. So, when Tim referenced the 28 percent, what that means is your total income, so let’s say you made it just for round numbers, let’s say you made 10,000 gross income as a household per month, we would use 2,800 as your housing expense. I’m not saying that that’s what you need to do. You can actually go a little higher, and of course, you can go lower. But that’s kind of the metric that historically lenders have looked at.

And then the back-end ratio means your total debt. So, that’s going to be the aggregate of all your other debts. So, your car payments, if you have auto payments, on auto loans, student loan payments, we take your student loan payment, any credit card payments you might have, and any other installment loans you may have. It does not include car insurance. Auto insurance, or cell phone bills, things like that, utilities, it does not include those at this juncture. So, we don’t look at those expenses. But that is going to be the aggregate of all of your debts and you cannot exceed that. We call it the debt to income ratio. So, that’s a very critical metric that lenders look at when they’re evaluating you for your pre-approval. That’s kind of a high level of what we would look at.

[00:12:10] TU: Tony relevant to our audience, if I zoom out for a moment, we’ve seen somewhat of a stagnation of pharmacist’s salaries, obviously, that’s very dependent upon the field and someone’s career trajectory. While we’ve seen a significant bump up in home prices, as well, as you know, I just read an article the other day in the journal about home insurance, homeowners insurance costs going up. So, if we think about what’s involved in that 28 to 36, rule 28 percent, again, being maximum monthly housing expenses, 36 percent would be maximum monthly gross income going to all debts, as you alluded to, and of course, student loan debt, has been going up, as our listeners know, too well.

So, these do have implications for our audience, in terms of understanding these rules, what’s involved and to your comment, just to reinforce it, the number that gets spit out by the lender, may or may not be in line with the budget and the rest of the goals. So, we’ve got to take a step back and determine what makes sense in the bigger picture.

Tony, one of the most common questions we get is 20 percent down, yay or nay? What are the pros and cons of putting 20 percent down? I think the reason it’s top of mind for many is just the amount of time and savings it can take to put 20 percent down. So, if I’m buying a $400,000 home, I stay true to that rule of thumb of 20 percent, looking at $80,000, I’ve got $200,000 of student loan debt, I’ve got other competing priorities. That takes time, to be able to do that. From your perspective, what are some of the things that you think about in terms of the pros and cons of that 20 percent down payment?

[00:13:46] TU: Well, you’re exactly right. It can take a long time to save 20 percent. This is a question that comes up a lot. Let’s start with the pro. Let’s look at the pros first. I mean, clearly, you’re going to owe less on your mortgage if you put 20 percent down. So, your payment would be slightly lower. But it’s not that much lower because interest rates are so low. So, that additional 20 percent is really not buying you much of a lower payment. It might be, maybe $100 a month, or something to that effect, maybe $200 depending on the price of the home, but it’s not going to be a substantial amount for the amount you’re putting down. So, that’s one pro clear, I’m going back to the pros, is you owe less.

The other thing is if you’re not a, for example, pharmacists, we have some programs that you can avoid PMI, which we can address later. But if you’re not, let’s say you’re in my role, you I don’t have a PMI option for my career path. So, 20 percent down would help a lot of people avoid PMI. So, clearly that’s a pro. And then, the other thing you owe less on your mortgage so you have a little bit more margin there. Those would be some of the pros. You can also maybe afford more home, because your payments lower, or you’re allowed a higher debt to income ratio, because I did reference earlier, we can often even get approvals up to 50 percent. Well, if you put 20 percent down, there’s going to be no constraints from the MI company or the lender’s underwriting, for example, they may allow you to go to a higher level, because 20 percent down frees you up. If you have great credit, and you’re putting a nice down payment, you can actually get a higher debt to income ratio, often, approved.

So, those would be some of the pros, Tim, of putting 20 percent down. Some of the cons, clearly, one is just how long it takes to save the funds, and that plays into a whole bunch of other things, too, that I see quite often. Number one, you could use that, those proceeds to pay off higher interest rate debt, because mortgage rates are low plus, the mortgage interest is often tax deductible as well. So, you’re really not even paying the actual note rate you’re paying in many cases, so you could use that extra money to pay off other higher interest rate debt, whether it’s auto loans, student loans or credit cards.

The other thing is home repairs, upgrades, if you’re looking to remodel, it’s very common right now. People will say, “Hey, I want to redo the flooring in the kitchen.” And that gives them greater margin to do that. They’ll have their own money, they can actually get into the home, acquire it with less money down. And then of course, they can do all those things they want to do the house which creates value. One thing just to address with like investment, a home is more of a lifestyle to place to live. It’s an alternative to renting, but if we do work with some savvy investors, too. I have referenced before on this climb. I’m doing this for 20 years. I’m getting kind of old. I have quite a few investor clients. And I’ve noticed over the years that some of the savvier investors look at their returns differently than a lot of us would, right?

For example, just think about this. I mean, the average appreciation, let’s take out the last few years it’s been way above this. But normally it’s like 3.5 percent to 5 percent a year, is kind of historical, average appreciation for homes over time. If you were to find a home, let’s say you bought a 400,000 home, and you put 5 percent down such that’s going to be a $20,000 down payment. Okay. Well, let’s say that house, the following year is worth 420. Well, you just made 100 percent return on your investment. You only put 20,000 down to secure the home. And now your home’s worth 420, you just made 100 percent return in one year. I mean, it’s an incredible return, right?

Where if you put 20 percent down, you would have made roughly a 25 percent return, right? So, it’s still a good return, but not the same return. That’s how a lot of the investors that are out there, look at their returns on real estate. So, institutional investors look at it that way. But even us we can look at that way, you know, because that’s what we invested truly, and we put down $20,000 to buy that 400,000 home. And now we’ve made 20,000 in equity. So, we’ve doubled our investment in that case. Versus if we put 80,000 down, which would be 20 percent down, and we made 20,000 and we got a 25 percent return.

So clearly, the con is you don’t get the same returns, right? Your return is not as high. I think I’ll add one more thing to that with returns is, you could also use it for other investments. For example, the team at YFP, IRAs, Roth IRAs, there’s a lot of other alternatives out there to diversify, instead of putting all your money into real estate. I’m a big believer in being diversified. So, I think, clearly a con, if that’s a lot of your net worth that 20 percent, you’re putting it all into one asset may not be the wisest thing. So, those are just some cons there, Tim, to consider. And I guess, as we compare those options.

[00:19:09] TU: Tony, you’re alluding to two really important concepts that tie into the financial plan, which is leverage and opportunity costs, right? Any purchase and financial decision we make, there’s an opportunity costs or an evaluation of an opportunity cost. Here we’re talking about putting more money into a home that might be used elsewhere. I think that for many of our folks, this is a time to do some self-reflection evaluation as you look at risk tolerance, as you look at other goals that you have, looking at student loan debt, looking at your long-term investment retirement picture. That’s one of the things I think the team at YFP Planning does so well with the financial planning clients is help them look at a decision like a home purchase decision, have these conversations about appropriate amounts of leverage and the other goals that they’re trying to achieve, and then help coach through that decision making while looking at home buying in the context of the rest of the financial plan.

I think this is a good place, Tony, that we just remind folks, that down payment, of course, is not the only expense we need to be thinking about, right? We’ve talked about this on the show before, you know, earnest money, closing costs. So, what you’re going to need in some to come at the table to close, but then also, beyond just the ongoing monthly payment, which you mentioned, the PITI concept. So, principal, interest, taxes and insurance, what about everything else associated with that home purchase? So, whether that’s maintenance, and upkeep, and things that you expect, remodeling, finishes, landscaping, equipment that you need for the home, now that you have that home purchase. Really taking a step back, especially for those that might be currently in a renting situation to say, “What’s the total cost? And are we ready financially to make this decision?”

So, that’s number two, is knowing the budget. Number three is getting prepared -approved. So, once you’ve done some research to understand rates, created a budget, safer down payment and some of the other costs I just mentioned, next up is getting pre-approved. Tony, why is the pre-approval process so important? What is it? And how is that different from pre-qualification?

[00:21:09] TU: Well, the pre-qualification is typically a very easy thing that can be done. But unfortunately, this doesn’t carry a lot of weight. So, the key differences are, an actual pre-approval is going to be when a lender looks at your credit report, and then also looks at your income. So, it’s not just looking at credit, it’s actually asking for a pay stub, for example, and we verified your pay stub. Where pre-qualification, you don’t even run credit, you just put in what your expenses are, and tell the lender what your income is, and say, “Okay, great, you’re pre-qualified”, that doesn’t carry a lot of weight in the real estate community.

We talked to a lot of realtors, they call us a lot of times on offers, the listing agents do when they receive an offer and the buyer will include our letter, our pre-approval letter and ask some – they want to know that the client is qualified because it’s a competitive marketplace, and they don’t want their properties being tied up. So, the key difference is the lender has run credit, has reviewed your income. Those are the key differences there between the two.

The other thing that the pre-approval, I mean, that really brings value that I’ve seen over the years is the credit report. I want to bring this up, because a lot of us follow our credit scores, whether it’s Credit Karma, or a lot of these other monitoring services that are out there. But they don’t truly give an accurate reading of what a creditor sees. They’ll give you a kind of a good idea of what your scores are doing, and like if they’re moving higher, then the trend is probably good for you. But they can often be 20 to 30 points, 40 points even lower than what a lender sees. Because we run all three bureaus, we don’t follow one.

So, the mortgage community runs a report that has all three bureaus, TransUnion, Equifax, and Experian and we use the median score. So, we use the median score of the three to determine your credit score. And the value that I think can come here is, clearly, you know your score, which can determine if you qualify, but also your interest rate, right? So, the higher your credit score, the better your rates tend to be. And some lenders, and not all lenders can do this, but some lenders have the ability to help you with rescoring.

Basically, they have a program where they can tell you what you can do to improve your score. And that’s been invaluable for many people that are home shopping right now that we’ve been able to get them either qualified or into a better program by telling them, “Hey, by the way, if you pay down this credit card, for example, your score will go up 20 points.” Or “If you consolidate this loan or whatever it might be, you can improve your credit by this much.” So, that’s been something that’s been helpful during the pre-approval process, Tim, that I’ve seen lately.

[00:23:56] TU: And that’s a good connection back to Episode 216, Tony, when you and I talked about common credit blunders to avoid when buying a home. Again, we’ll link to that in the show notes, but credit is such an important part of the home buying process for the reasons that you mentioned. So, really looking at any due to shore up credit and making sure that you’re understanding your credit scores and using the right tools, so that you’re not surprised when you get into that pre-approval process.

So, that’s number three, get pre-approved. Number four is comparing lenders. Tony, we know that not all lenders are created equal. Ultimately, we’ve got to make this decision of what lender am I going to work with? What type of loan am I going to pursue? I think sometimes these are recommendations that might come from an agent, might be recommendations that come from a family or a friend or coworker, might be a random internet search. So, I think it’s worth talking about what are some of the things that folks should look for in a lender?

Now, of course here, Tony, you’re representing IBERIABANK/First Horizon, and we’re talking about the pharmacist home loan products. So of course, there’s a vested interest in folks evaluating that option. But from your viewpoint, what are some of the things that folks should be looking for when choosing that lender?

[00:25:06] TU: Well, there’s quite a few different types of lenders out there, and all of them have varying pros and cons to working with. So, I could kind give you guys an idea of some of the lenders that are out there, you have what are called mortgage brokers who are true, almost like a middleman between lenders, and there’s pros and cons with working with those types of lenders, because they do have a lot of options where like a larger bank may not have as many options as a mortgage broker. But mortgage brokers tend to be more expensive. I find that they’re typically better when you have a really more tough case, whether it’s a credit score issue or some other issue, they can be more valuable than a bank in a lot of ways. Because they have some more greater flexibility.

Then you have the correspondent lenders, which are mortgage lenders that may have small branches in a city or a town. They’re not a bank, but they are able to lend directly to Fannie and Freddie. They use, not to get too complicated here, but they actually use bank warehouse lines to fund the loans, and then they’ll sell the loans, but they are true correspondent lender. And then of course, there’s banks. But there’s different types of banks, there’s large banks like the Citi groups and the Bank of America’s and Wells Fargo. And then there’s more of a medium sized bank, like the bank that I work for, and then there’s small community banks, too.

So, there’s lots of different sizes, and all have pros and cons. When you’re looking at mortgage lenders, programs are very important. The program that you can get is important. Rates are important as well. The other thing that’s very critical, is being able to fulfill the timelines, because there’s some challenges out there with certain types of lenders where they can’t meet the commitment letter deadline in the purchase contract, or they have a struggle with their appraisal process, or they have a struggle closing a loan in 30 days. Those are questions you need to ask the lender upfront, because different lenders had different operations. Some will actually use outsourced processing, which might be in another state, whether it’s not all under one roof, or the loan originator that you talk to may not have control over that process.

So, those are just some things to think through. But clearly, there are advantages and disadvantages for every type of lender that’s out there. So, it’s good to know, get some recommendations, and also to kind of compare the products and make sure it’s a fit for you and that you feel comfortable with the group that you’re working with. I think ultimately, that’s the most important thing, that you feel confident that they can help you and fulfill the closing date for you. That’s a key element.

[00:27:52] TU: Yeah, that’s a good reminder, Tony. Interest rates, of course, are very important for the reason we mentioned in terms of the length of the loan, and what that’s going to mean in terms of dollars out of pocket. But don’t overlook some of those things about abilities around appraisal and underwriting and closing on time and communication, and making sure that you feel comfortable. There’s, of course, going to be some open communication. There’s a lot of things that need to get done in a short amount of time.

So, I think it’s a good place to highlight the pharmacist home loan product that is offered, Tony, through your organization at IBERIABANK/First Horizon. We’re seeing a lot of interest in the pharmacist community about this product, which many listening might have heard of doctor type of loans and think, “Hey, I’m a pharmacist. I’m not eligible for that.” And here with IBERIABANK/First Horizon, we have an opportunity that is available to pharmacists. So, talk to us more about that program in terms of down payment, what’s involved or not with PMI, maximum loan amounts and where this option is available in terms of where folks may live?

[00:28:58] TU: Sure, sure. Well, this product is often a great solution, and it’s been really fun to be able to help so many people with this program. It is somewhat unique in that you can put very little down payment and not have PMI and still have very aggressive interest rates too. So, to kind of just highlight the program overall is, if you’re a first-time homebuyer, first time buying, you can put as little as 3 percent down. And of course, there’s no PMI. If you’ve owned a home before, it’s 5 percent down. You’d have to put a 5 percent down payment and the no mortgage insurance clearly is an advantage. But the other thing too is oftentimes the rates on this program, the 30-year rate that we offer on it is often better than my 20 percent down rate. So, you’re still getting a really competitive rate and priced very, very well. As far as the minimum credit score is 700. So, there is a minimum credit score you have to be above 700. There’s no like clear reserve requirement. What that means is having extra money reserves of payments in your bank account or investments, which is nice too, for a lot of first-time homebuyers and those that are buying their first home.

But the other piece about the loan limits that Tim referenced, currently, our loan limit on this product is 548,250. But that’s about to change. I think we’re probably looking at at least 625,000 starting January 1, 2022. So, we’re going to see a nice bump up. It may even be higher than that, and that’ll be across the country. So, this program is available in basically the 48 lower states. Alaska and Hawaii are the only two states that we’re not licensed in, but we can offer it in 48 states. So, it’s a nice footprint that we can help and we’ve helped individuals in pretty much every state, I think, that I referenced.

But the loan limit thing is exciting, because I think that’s going to enable a lot more people to buy in higher priced areas. And we may even see that go higher than that in certain areas that are even higher priced. And there are certain parts of the country that priced markets, housing prices are much higher, clearly in California, in and around DC, Northern Virginia. So, those are some places where this could be even higher than 625. So yeah, it’s exciting to see a little bit of a move higher there.

[00:31:19] TU: So sorry to our friends of YFP in Alaska or Hawaii, as Tony mentioned, this is available in the lower 48. We’ve got more information that goes into more detail on what Tony just shared there. You can find that at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. And again, that’s a summary of much of what we’re talking about here on this episode as well.

So Tony, we’ve talked so far about knowing the landscape of interest rates. We referenced the Freddie Mac resource, folks can go to find that information, making sure that they’re considering that points may be including those rates, as they’re looking at various options. So that was, number one, know the landscape. Number two, we talked about knowing your budget, the importance of not only the down payment, but also other costs that are involved in the transaction, as well as ongoing costs with the home purchase. Number three, we talked about pre-approval, why that’s so important, how it’s different than pre-qualification, and how the credit score has implications there. Number four, we just talked about comparing some of the lenders and the options that are out there and we talked about the pharmacist home loan product.

So here we are, finally, we put in an offer on that home, we’ve got our lender obviously lined up, we’re working with that agent, hopefully that offer is accepted. And now we’ve got this process that happens from offer accepted to ultimately closing on the home where those keys are handed over. So, what should folks expect in this application underwriting process in terms of forms that they’re going to need to prepare, documents that they’re going to have to show, and any work that they might be able to do in advance to get some of that ready?

[00:32:55] TU: Yeah, so the exciting part happens, right? We’ve got the property under contract, but there is quite a bit of of items that lenders will need. Once you feel comfortable and you found the lender, that’s a good fit for you, lenders, we’re all really going to need the same things, and it’s going to be income information. So, if you’re self-employed, we’ll need typically two years of your tax returns, both your corporate returns and your personal returns. And then for income for those that are employed, it’s a little easier, just need two years of your W-2s, and your most recent pay stubs for the past 30 days. Those are what lenders will need to verify income.

Then we’re going to have to verify your down payment. And typically, that’s going to be bank statements and lenders have different types of ways to do this. We actually have a technology that we’ve – no, it’s not our proprietary technology, we have a FinTech company out of California, that has been doing very well in the mortgage space. They built a platform where when clients enter their information, we can actually do a read only format for your bank statements. So, you don’t even have to supply them. It’ll tell us what’s in the account, and the average two months and we verified it that way. So that’s been really helpful and a lot of clients have liked that.

But outside of that alternative, traditionally, it’s two months of statements. So, two months of your most recent bank account statements to verify the down payment. If they need additional reserves, if the lender needs additional reserves in, if you have an IRA or 401(k), or any investment account, brokerage account, those assets would be verified with a two months of statements or a quarterly statement as well. And then of course, we’ll need a copy of the purchase contract. So typically, once you have a purchase contract available, you’re able to lock a rate in and that’s important because rates can be volatile. They can move in, especially with economic reports, that can cause rates to move up and down and lenders typically cannot lock rates until they have a purchase contract so they know how long to lock it and they have an actual property address for the bond that they’re locking, basically. So, that’s another step that we’ll need.

The other items that you need to work on too, is homeowner’s insurance. I always encourage people that to get started with that as soon as possible, especially if you’re in the southern states, southeastern states during early July, through the end of October. We have some tropical storms down in this area and hurricanes, even if they’re not any threat to you, if they are in, what’s called the box, insurance companies have limits on when they can write insurance. So, we’re always very encouraging to get that process started soon. So, homeowners’ insurance is an important component. And typically, driver’s license, things like that.

The application will go through all the questions about your employment, where you’ve worked the last couple of years, a lot of your vitals, date of birth, social security number, those types of things, and you’re on your way. So, it’s an exciting – that’s when the process officially begins. Typically, the appraisals ordered shortly after that mortgage application is put in. So, we also need to know who your realtors are, if there are realtors involved, so they can open the home – they can be the point of contact for the appraiser. That’s another item that we need to know. We need to know the parties who are involved. And often we do, but I just included that because that’s something else the lender will need to know. You may need to supply that to your lender, make sure that you do. That information, the key contacts in the transaction. But from that point on, that the journey is on, and you’re moving through the loan process after you make that formal loan application.

[00:36:33] TU: Yeah, and I mentioned a few moments ago, Tony, the importance of open communication. This is an exciting time, this can feel overwhelming, there’s a lot of moving pieces and parts. I think much of what you just shared to me is a good reminder of folks of like this is the time to over communicate on both sides, for both the lender, as well as the home buyer, and making sure that you’re being responsive, things need to move quick, there’s a lot of ducks that need to get in a row. The other reason, I think, this section here on our final one on completing the application and bringing this whole process to ultimately a close is folks should be thinking about some of the information that’s been requested and what implications things like job transitions may have, big financial purchases people are making, right?

Ideally, we’re trying to have as little disruption as possible in this time period, because of the information that the bank is requesting from you and wanting to have the stability of both that funds to close as well as looking at your income. So, for folks that are in transition, for folks that have pending large purchases, I’m thinking of the residents or the fellows and those that are moving from a first to a second job. Just be thinking about some of the timeline and the implications that has on finishing up this process and ultimately the overall home buying process.

Tony, great stuff as always. It’s been a great year of having you on the show, and always appreciate your input and your expertise. And folks, again, more information, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. You can learn more about all of what we talked about here on this episode, as well as the pharmacist home loan product and get in touch with Tony and the team at IBERIABANK/First Horizon from there. Tony, thanks so much.

[00:38:10] TU: Thanks for having me, Tim. Always good to be here. Thank you again.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[00:38:13] TU: Before we wrap up the show, I want to again, thank this week’s sponsor of Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, IBERIABANK/First Horizon.

We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20 percent for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of IBERIABANK/First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3 percent down payment for a single-family home or townhome, and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed rate mortgage. To learn more about the requirements for IBERIABANK/First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to get started with the preapproval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[OUTRO]

[00:38:55] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 229: How This Pharmacy Professor’s Debt Free Journey Ignited His Passion to Teach Others

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How This Pharmacy Professor’s Debt Free Journey Ignited His Passion to Teach Others

On this episode, sponsored by GoodRx, Bhavik Shah talks about his debt-free journey, his early missteps, and how he used his experience to further the financial literacy education of other pharmacists.

About Today’s Guest

Bhavik Shah earned his doctorate of pharmacy from Rutgers University and completed post-graduate training in pharmacy practice and infectious diseases at Thomas Jefferson University Hospital in Philadelphia, PA. He is an associate professor at the Jefferson College of Pharmacy and co-director of the Pharmacology thread in the JeffMD curriculum at Sidney Kimmel Medical College at Thomas Jefferson University. He is an active member of ASHP and ACCP. Within ASHP, he has served as vice-chair and chair of the Year-Round Educational Steering Committee for 2019-2021, where he was able to promote including personal finance education through podcasts with the New Practitioners Forum and Clinical Leadership section advisory groups.

Bhavik is passionate about teaching personal finance to students and colleagues. He has created a personal finance elective at JCP.

Episode Summary

Today, we host pharmacist and educator Bhavik Shah for a candid conversation about his journey of becoming debt-free and the financial missteps he took early in his journey that you can avoid. Fresh out of pharmacy school, Bhavik knew he wanted to pay off his student debt, but he did not have a plan. Bhavik shares the story of how he paid off a hefty student loan of over $80,000 in just six years and shares his advice to develop a plan for student loan debt payment along with a plan for making the most of your income. Bhavik also shares why he believes it is critical to take advantage of Roth payments and how he was motivated by the idea of being his own financial steward. Listeners will learn why Bhavik believes it is essential to get a grasp on the basics of financial literacy before hiring a professional (tax, insurance, or otherwise), and what drove him to create his course on financial literacy, including the reality that student debt creates a barrier to entry for many pharmacists to pursue post-graduate education. He believes that this problem could be solved by including a financial literacy piece in the PharmD program. Listeners will be introduced to several great resources that have enriched Bhavik’s financial understanding and more!

Key Points From This Episode

  • An introduction to today’s guest, Bhavik Shah.
  • Bhavik’s academic background and why he chose a career in pharmacy and teaching.
  • The money scripts Bhavik was raised with and how they impacted his mindset.
  • How he graduated with $80,000 of student debt and paid it off in just six years.
  • Why he considers it a mistake not to have taken advantage of Roth contributions to get tax-free growth.
  • What Bhavik means by emphasizing being your own steward, and what motivated this.
  • How he learned the importance of understanding the basics before hiring a professional.
  • Financial education and literacy and why it is important.
  • What motivated Bhavik to create his course on financial literacy.
  • Bhavik’s thoughts on whether a personal finance piece should be included in the PharmD program.
  • Resources he has found helpful, including the White Coat Investor and the Money Guy.
  • How student debt deters people from pursuing postgraduate education.
  • The role of financial education in preventing this barrier.

Highlights

“The core, the concepts of living below your means, saving, understanding the value of money, those experiences stuck with me. It made it a lot easier as an adult to approach my own finances with that mindset.” — Bhavik Shah [0:05:02]

“Another mistake I made was not taking advantage of Roth contributions, especially as a student or as a resident, being in that lower-income bracket and having not much time on your side to get that tax-free growth. That is something I wish I had done more of or at all.” — Bhavik Shah [0:14:02]

“There is a taboo centered around talking about money and so I realized people are making the same mistakes and so we need to learn from one another so that is really what drove me to create this course.” — Bhavik Shah [0:23:24]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrick here and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week I had a chance to sit down with Bhavik Shah, an associate professor of pharmacy practice at Jefferson College of Pharmacy. I had an opportunity to meet Bhavik a few weeks prior to recording and really appreciated his passion and his enthusiasm for personal finance. On this week’s show, we talk about Bhavik’s journey to becoming debt-free from student loans and why he felt like that was just the beginning of his overall financial journey. We also talk about some of his early missteps and how that helped shape his current mindset and approach.

We talk about why and how he has taken the experience from his own journey to further the education of other pharmacists through podcasts that he’s done with ASHP new practitioner’s forum, as well as by creating and offering a personal finance elective at Jefferson College of Pharmacy.

Before we hear from today’s sponsor, and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40 plus states. YFP Planning offers fee only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, GoodRx, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Bhavik.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:01:44.7] TU: It’s American pharmacist month and to honor the occasion, GoodRx has created the Above and Beyond Pharmacy Awards. These awards recognize pharmacy professionals that go the extra mile, every single day to improve the health of their patients and communities and we need you, the pharmacy community, to nominate your incredible colleagues.

Pharmacists, technicians, residents, and interns that show true leadership, compassion, pride and dedication. Pharmacy professionals are on the frontlines, working every day to transform their communities. The time has come to show them some appreciation. Nominations are open now through November 19, 2021, and recipients will receive education credits and more.

Go to GoodRx.com/pharmacy-awards to nominate someone today. Now, again, that’s GoodRx.com/pharmacy-awards.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:36.5] TU: Bhavik, welcome to the show.

[0:02:37.5] BS: Thanks for having me, Tim.

[0:02:39.8] TU: Looking forward to this interview. You and I had a chance to connect a few weeks ago, and we’re going to get to where that connection came from and some of the work that you’re doing in personal finance education and your passion for this topic. I really left that conversation feeling inspired and empowered in my own journey, based on the intentionality, I really heard of how you have approached your financial position and I think that information is going to be really helpful for our community.

Let’s start with your background and work in pharmacy, what drew you to the profession, where did you go to school and then what type of work are you doing now?

[0:03:14.0] BS: Absolutely. I went to pharmacy school at Rutgers University, I did the zero to six program and what drew me to pharmacy is because I knew I wanted to do something in healthcare. And I was sort of deciding between medicine and pharmacy, and I had family pursuit pharmacy and you know, the more I learned about it, it seemed it fit my strengths and my personality. So that’s what drew me to Rutgers and I did my residency training at Thomas Jefferson University and pharmacy practice as well as in infectious disease and I’ve been a faculty member here since 2010.

I have a student of four, hospital medicine rotation, and teach in a number of courses as well as in the medical school too.

[0:04:02.7] TU: Very good, we’re going to come back later about some of the work that you’re doing at Jefferson around personal finance education but I first want to talk about your own journey and your own story. And Bhavik, one theme I’ve noticed on this show, through interviewing other pharmacists, that I have also seen in my own journey, is their relevance of the money scripts that we carry with us.

What I mean by that is the said and unsaid things from our upbringing that impact the way we view money today. Tell us about your money scripts and how they impacted your own journey when it comes to your financial plan?

[0:04:40.4] BS: That’s a great question. My relationship with money started with my parents. They immigrated from India with nothing and they sort of built a life here. They had the means to provide for my brother and I, but it was never to the point where it was abundant, where we could talk about investing or anything but the basics, the core, the concepts of living below your means, saving, understanding the value of money, those experiences stuck with me. It made it a lot easier as an adult to approach my own finances with that mindset.

I really am appreciative of that upbringing, even though I didn’t necessarily have the rarer thoughts and know all the finer things about investing or anything like that. I think that came later but that relationship with money, I think was really key in understanding what it brings and what it doesn’t bring.

[0:05:36.7] TU: I like Bhavik that you used the word relationship with money because I think that is something that is healthy for us to think about is, what is the relationship we have with money? Whether that’s a healthy or an unhealthy relationship, where might that come from? Where do the perceptions and values and beliefs that we have come from in money, and obviously knowing that that very well and likely, is connected to the behavior and how we’re approaching our financial plan today.

Bhavik, as you know today’s graduate is facing on average, about $170,000 in student loan debt. Now, that is much different than what our peers were facing back in 2008 when both you and I completed our PharmD training. Tell us about your debt position after graduating and through residency and not only the position that you’re in debt-wise but also tell me about your mindset at the time around paying off that debt.

[0:06:29.4] BS: When I graduated, my expenses for college were all financed by student loans. My parents, coming from a working-class background, they didn’t have the means to provide for us and that was fine so I knew that sort of going in.

I graduated with about $80,000 of debt back in 2008. I was fortunate enough to go to a state school, I was fortunate enough to be in a zero to six program so that definitely helped mitigate some of the amount of debt that I graduated with.

When I graduated, I didn’t know, you and I know repaying debt, especially student loans, there’s so many different options and terms and it’s very dizzying and I made mistakes along the way. And when I went to residency, I put my loans into forbearance, which looking back that was not the right thing because I was confusing the terms forbearance and deferment.

As I sort of started learning more about things, my relationship with my loans was I wanted to pay them off as quickly as possible so I was – I was a resident for two years, I was moonlighting, picking up extra shifts. And once I became a faculty member, I was working, you know, having them sort of being accustomed to working every other weekend as a resident, I carried that forward so I was picking up shifts at the hospital.

I was able to pay off my student loans in six years instead of a standard 10-year plan. A part of that way that we were able to do that, it was dad’s idea actually. He suggested that we payoff, at the time interest rates on student loans was more high, they’re still high. At the time, he had access to a home equity line of credit. That was very low, that was right after the economy crashed in ‘08.

He had access to cheaper money and so he said, “How about we take a home equity line of credit” we pay off the loans and then I paid my parents back. I looked into that and I didn’t know what a home equity line of credit was back then, I didn’t understand these things but my dad was looking out for me and I really appreciated that because he was able to get a 2% home equity line of credit at the time or two out of 3%.

I was sitting at six and a half percent so I was saving money, he said, “You know, why pay the interest to the government when you could just pay it, keep it within the house?” I was just paying him interest to – he didn’t make any money off of me but he did get a tax deduction out of it so I guess he came out ahead a little bit but it really set me up for success and so I really appreciated that offer. Obviously, they trusted me to pay them back.

[0:09:19.9] TU: Yeah, there’s got to be obviously, trust in that relationship. That strategy, if I heard you correctly was, you’ve got federal loans and I remember, Bhavik, I had fixed interest rate loans 6.8% is the number I remember in my mind in 2008. Some are a little bit lower but many of them were at about that rate and so obviously, home equity line of credit that your father is able to help with lower. You mentioned two to 3% so obviously that difference between six, six and a half two and three percent is significant intra savings, even when you’re talking about a relatively short period of time, which that being six years.

Did you, Bhavik – when I graduated in ‘08 and I think there’s a lot more information that’s out there today. I’m finding that I’m having conversations with graduates today that already have an understanding of unsubsidized versus subsidized and public service loan forgiveness, and refinancing and income-driven repayment. I didn’t know what any of that was.

Did you feel like, at the time, you had an understanding of the nuances and options, and would you agree that it seems like a lot of that information has come a long way here in the last decade since we graduated or I guess, a little more than a decade.

[0:10:28.3] BS: Yeah, absolutely. I think back at the time, I didn’t know anything. I just knew I had to pay it back, I know that the standard 10 year plan was a default and that was, it’s sort of the mindset that I went in. I didn’t know there were other options at the time. I think student public service loan forgiveness was new and so in looking back, I certainly didn’t qualify for it because I was a previous borrower predating 2007.

I won’t have qualified but I didn’t know that at the time. I just knew I had to pay this off and so that’s why I was just motivated to pay it off as quickly as possible. So I was paying extra principle payments to my dad, turns out but I was able to pay everything off in six years. That was like a huge sense of relief.

[0:11:18.2] TU: Yeah, that’s great. One of the things you shared with me when we talked a couple of weeks back is, this resonates with me as I think back to our own journey. Once the loans are paid off, you kind of wondered, “Well, now what?” right? Had you thought much about that post debt payment journey and tell us a little hit about that transition from making big, aggressive, large on monthly payments to no longer, they’re gone, right?

[0:11:43.8] BS: Yeah, actually and that’s where my sort of personal finance journey started was after paying off my student loans, I was like, “Now, what?” and so at the time, I was dating my now wife, girlfriend at the time, I just transitioned my monthly student loan payment and I was just saving cash because I knew, engagement ring, and I’m Indian and when we do weddings, it’s sort of a big affair.

I knew that I want to pay for that and I didn’t want my parents to go into any debt for that. I transitioned towards those expenses, saving for those expenses and so that sort of – once those were done, then it was like, “Okay, now what? Where do I go?” I started learning more about where else to save and invest our funds.

[0:12:34.6] TU: We graduated in 2008, I guess we could call ourselves kind of that maybe second part of the career, right? That mid-career, we’re no longer new practitioners, we’re beyond that or there’s perhaps some evolution of the financial plan, the debt’s paid off, other goals that you’re working on and towards.

And so my question here is, Bhavik, you now sit in this vantage point of, “Okay, I’ve been through this journey, I paid off the debt, I’m now in more of that wealth building, next phase of the financial plan.” What advice would you give to the students that are listening to the new practitioners who are listening or even think about your former self as they are on the front end of this journey, and perhaps feeling overwhelmed by the magnitude of not only the debt but also other priorities of which you’re trying to work on?

[0:13:19.8] BS: Absolutely. I think for me, the challenge that I had was I didn’t have a plan. I had a general sort of vague approach to things but it wasn’t necessary purposeful. And so having a dedicated plan for your student loans is something that I would tell myself. I, looking back, I did what I wanted to do but then, was I optimizing every single dollar. I left money on the table because I wasn’t taking advantage of 403(b) matching at my employer.

I mean, I wasn’t spending the money, which is I guess good, I was still building net worth by putting it towards student loans, but finding ways to get the most utility out of your money was a real mistake I made. Another mistake I made was you know, not taking advantage of Roth contributions especially as a student or as a resident, being in that lower-income bracket, and having not much time on your side to get that tax-free growth. That is something I wish I had done more of or at all.

That’s what I tell students is just there’s a lot of information out there and so going back to your question earlier, which I realized I didn’t answer, because back then, there was not enough information out there, the new programs are really new. Now, there’s a lot of resources out there, just a matter of finding it. You have that, other websites have it blogged. Knowing that and I encourage my students, third year, fourth year, to start thinking about this and that way, in my elective, that when you graduate, you know what you’re going to do. Whether you’re going to pursue this line, what IDR is best for you or not, or if you’re going to refinance, which lenders you’re going to look into, that sort of thing so having a plan.

[0:15:02.7] TU: Absolutely, we talk about it all the time, right? The intentionality of the plan and even if that debt number doesn’t change tomorrow or next month or next year in a very significant way, the power of knowing you’ve evaluated your options and you have a plan, going forward that considers, not only student loans but also other parts of the financial plan, knowing that student loan debt is certainly going to be a big part of the puzzle for many folks that are out there.

When you and I talked several weeks ago, one thing that you said that really stood out to me was your desire to be your own steward, and how much of a motivation that was for you on your quest towards learning more about personal finance, and then applying the things that you’re learning in your own plan and on your journey. What did you mean by that in terms of the importance of being your own steward and what led to that motivation?

[0:15:52.9] BS: I think the biggest experience that I had was, after I had paid off my student loans, you know, we paid for the engagement ring and wedding, I mean those life events that are happening in your 20s and 30s you know, it was sort of like, “Now, what?” My wife and I, when we got married, we had an accountant.

I asked for advice and how to minimize taxes and what more we could do. They offered it and so that sort of got me into thinking, “Okay, they encouraged, a backdoor Roth.” That’s not what they called it at the time but it’s called a none – it was more confusing. I wish they called it backdoor Roth because I Googled it that way. Then, that got me sort of thinking. At the same time, when I graduated as a resident, I was approached by what I thought was a financial advisor but it was really an insurance agent.

He was recommending term insurance, term life insurance and disability insurance which I know I wanted to get, but they were pushing whole life insurance, which at the time for me didn’t make sense. And I pushed back but they have a really good sales pitch and it’s very tempting, but I did not go down that road. But he did end up selling me a term life insurance, which was not what I wanted, but I didn’t know how to communicate that because I didn’t know what specific terms to look for or ask for.

What I was sold was a term 80 policy by one of the big companies in the business. The premium increases as you get older, what I really wanted was a level premium where it’s just a fixed amount per month, doesn’t increase with the face value for a certain period of time. That’s what I wanted but I didn’t use that jargon.

Similarly, he also sold me a disability insurance and he was saying it was like an own-occupation et cetera. Similarly, it didn’t have – it was not a level premium so the premium was escalating and in your 20s and 30s, it looked pretty cheap and I didn’t really look at it how much of a cost in my 40s, 50s, 60s. The own-occupation ended up not being really own-occupation.

[0:18:08.2] TU: Yeah, it’s confusing, yup.

[0:18:09.9] BS: It was only for the first year or two of a claim and then it goes back to any occupation. Again, at the time, I didn’t know what to ask for or what to watch out for. Between that experience and going back to the accountant, I started looking more into the backdoor Roth, and doing it in one of the resources that I stumbled across was White Coat Investor. I learned about what that was and how doing it – and once I executed it and I – the next tax year, I went to my accountant. I said, “This is what I did, my wife and I. Can you help us file 8606?”

He did it correctly for me but he did it incorrectly for my wife. Now had I not known what to look for I wouldn’t have credit and so the basis would have been off of my wife. So that’s why I was saying, you know, I was trusting a professional and the accountant and this insurance agent, with a lot letters behind his name that seemed like he knew what he was talking about, but it was still not what I wanted or wasn’t in my best interest. So that really solidified for me and my wife that we have to sort of take the time to at least understand the basics.

That way if we engage with professionals then we know we are getting what we want to get and if it is appropriate for us.

[0:19:35.5] TU: I think what you just shared there, Bhavik, is a lot of things that are so valuable. Because I would advocate, as you just mentioned whether folks engage with professionals, you talk about accountants, you talk about insurance sales, you talk about financial planners and certainly as you’ve highlighted, not all professionals are created equal. There is some homework that folks have to do to understand the different professionals or credentials, how folks are getting paid, what standards are held under.

Does it makes sense or they act in their best interest or not, and we’ve talked about several of those things on the show but regardless if you are working with a professional or not, I think this concept of being your own steward is so important. One of the philosophies that we have at YFP planning is very much that folks feel that they have the education of the information whether that’s debt repayment, whether that’s investing, whether that’s insurance, whether that is tax as well as they feel empowered in that be in a shared decision that is being made between them and the professional in this case, who would be a financial planner.

Again, even if you are entrusting a professional, to your comment that you just made, really having that understanding, that baseline knowledge to make sure that you feel comfortable and confident in the advice that is given and that also you feel good that it affirms what you’ve been learning on your own. Or that you are able to then engage in that conversation, hopefully have some good and at times perhaps some hard questions and we’ve got more information.

There is a couple of things that you mentioned there, Bhavik, that I sense folks probably might want to dig into a little bit deeper. You mentioned both life, term life and long-term disability insurance. We talked about those on episode 44 and 45 of the show respectively, we’ll link that at the show notes and then back to our Roth IRA, probably one of the most common questions we get, I’ve got a blog post, why most pharmacists should consider it.

Episode 96 on the podcast talks a little bit about what is it, what’s the process, executing back to Roth, some of that, we’ll link to both of those in the show notes. A great example that I think you gave in terms of the importance of being your own steward. I want to shift gears and talk for a bit about financial education, financial literacy is I know that this was in part how we crossed paths and something that we both very much show and have a passion for.

This is evident, Bhavik, in the work that you’re doing and teaching personal finance elective at Jefferson, also within ASHP, you’ve been able to promote personal finance education through podcast with a new practitioner’s form and the clinical leadership section advisory groups. And so one of the questions I want to start with here is, as it relates to the course that you are teaching at Jefferson, tell us more about that course.

How did it get started? What type of support have you had? Some of the general concepts and information that you are trying to teach within that course, is that something that we certainly don’t see at all colleges but I suspect many listening whether it’s a student or alumni, perhaps a faculty member might have an interest in seeing this being offered or something similar through own institution?

[0:22:33.0] BS: The course was a – it sort of was a multi-year process of how I sort of got there. As I spent a couple of years teaching myself about personal finance and then becoming comfortable educating others or pointing to others the right resources, so I first started off with doing a faculty development program or a session on it, and then I start incorporating it with my API students.

I would do topical, topic clinical topic discussions but I would devote Mondays for personal finance topics and I made it optional because I didn’t want anyone to feel uncomfortable. But you know, I was saving on this is Money Monday, we’re going to talk about anything that you want to talk about and so students took me up on that. That sort of showed me that there was a need for it, especially since we don’t really get taught in any and I didn’t have any sort of formal education on it.

There is a taboo centered around talking about money and so I realized people are making the same mistakes. And so we need to learn from one another, so that is really drove me to create this course. I looked at the literature to see what was done at pharmacy schools and there wasn’t a lot published. There were a few papers published, there is really one paper that’s published by Michelle Qui out of the University of Wisconsin.

[0:23:52.7] TU: Yeah, I think that was back in ‘13 or ‘14. It’s been a while too, right?

[0:23:57.0] BS: It’s been a while, yeah and so there wasn’t out there, and I looked at different colleges to see what they had on their websites, how many schools had it and so this was like an untapped – this was a need but it had an untapped potential. In creating this course, I really didn’t have too much direction of what was done. I just sort of created something about starting from the basics like banking, credit scores, debt, what does the interest mean and what does inflation mean.

Then we talked about like module on tax rates, and then we get into the weeds of the different retirement vehicles, student loans. And so you know, it is pretty comprehensive, estate planning and so it’s a one-credit course over 14 hours. Now, it is going to be a two-credit course because there was just so much volume there that the students wanted, and so I expanded it to two-credit hours and so the type of assignments that I give are, I hope, that was sort of practical.

There is a long internal assignment in the course where I want them to finish the course with their own financial plan and so we build that out throughout the course. Existing debt, so what is your repayment plan, what’s your plan for getting life insurance, disability insurance? What’s your plan for your student loans, saving for retirement? Every week we go through that, each of those topics.

For life insurance and disability insurance, I go through policy genius or whatever resource just getting an idea of this is a resource you could use to look at when you graduate and how much it might cost. We go through student loans and we go through the different tech leaders online, and the studenta.gov and we go through PSLF. And so then that way they can put it to paper of what they are thinking about now. And obviously they could change their plan when they graduate, but having that something to refer to it will I think hopefully give them a starting point.

Something that I know I certainly don’t have but having that sort of framework hopefully sets them up for success.

[0:26:08.8] TU: I love you started one credit, you’ve gotten to two credits. I suspect there is a lot of interest from the students as well and I felt that similar but we started with one-credit hour personal finance like in the northeast to have Murdoch University about six or seven years ago, one to two-credit hours and then at Ohio State, we built the three-credit hour online asynchronous course and you know there is a lot to cover.

I think that the students, certainly there is a desire for that information and just some really cool things that you can do obviously in early management systems and other things to customize that learning experience for the students. I love the work that you are doing at Jefferson at that, and I hope for other colleges that we’ll see more of that. Bhavik, I’m going to put you on the spot and I didn’t tell you I was going to ask you this question in advance.

I am honestly curious to hear your input on this and of course, noting that you might have a bias, you probably do have a bias because you are teaching a personal finance elective. I think we have an interesting opportunity in front of us with the ACPE accreditation standards that are set to come out the next version in 2025 I believe and there is currently a comment period through the end of 2021 for folks to give feedback on those standards.

I have often thought and again, biased of course that you know, personal finance education should be considered as a part of the PharmD required curriculum and I think for good reasons, there is perhaps some split opinion on this ranging from is something like personal finance really part of a PharmD large at a clinical pharmacy training program. And I think there is other professions we could point to, whether it’s veterinary medicine and their associations or even medicine in AAMC who have done some more work in this topic than perhaps we have done in pharmacy.

I sense there’s two camps or two thoughts out there of, like absolutely consider what’s going on with the debt loads and the trends like it is a part, or our obligation to make sure students have a baseline understanding of personal finance education. Then others that are perhaps of the mindset of like, great philosophically, great in theory, great idea. I buy into the importance of the topic but is this something that really should be a part of the required PharmD program. What are your thoughts on that?

[0:28:27.8] BS: I think that is a fascinating question and honest, you know, you mentioned the comment period. I already added my comment to that asking that this be considered being incorporated in the document. I didn’t direct them to make it required or elective but I think it should be considered and I think there is an opportunity for it now especially I think there is a well for it and I think it relates to the current standard for where they talk about personal and professional development.

I think there is definitely a fit into that, because a part of personal finance is you need to have that self-awareness that what your own goals are and what you want out of your own career and your own personal life. And money is a tool that helps you achieve that or not, depending on how you use money. And so that’s one of the things I have in my elective is a reflection paper and for students to sort of put down why are they doing what they’re doing with their financial plan.

They just start thinking about it. I think there is a goal for it and I think there is certainly a need for it, and I saw that in the APHA House of Delegates. There was a motion too for every school of pharmacy or college of pharmacy to have such a course either be offered, whether it be required or elective, but at least be offered and so I think the momentum is there. I can comment out on the medical students because I also have a role at the medical college at Jefferson.

[0:29:50.0] TU: Yeah.

[0:29:50.5] BS: Currently, there isn’t a course. There is some content that they are exposed to but it is not as structured or in a course format, so they, the students themselves, they did a curricular gap analysis last year and there’s a strong desire from the medical students to have this kind of content. And so I am hoping that with my hand in two pots, you know, I can sort of bridge that in and open it up the elective to both students. I think that would be great in professional opportunities.

[0:30:23.6] TU: Yeah and I think we have some examples, you know the course you are doing at Jefferson others that are teaching courses, I probably know of 10 or 12 colleges that have some really good momentum in this and similar to other areas. I think in professional education being one, where really pharmacy took a jump out of the gates even ahead of other professions, and you get started, and then it continues to evolve, right?

It continues to evolve over time and so I agree, I think there is momentum. I think the house of delegates you mentioned at APHA SP, the students really being behind this, and credit to what I’ve seen AVMA and AAMC do for their members in both veterinary medicine and medicine respectively in terms of resources they provide with their membership. I think we’ve got a real opportunity in pharmacy especially considering what we have seen in the trends in debt load as well as some of the other pressures that we have on our profession.

That I think the timing is right to be able to see some of these forward. Bhavik, in your journey, again as you are in kind of this next phase in your career, what resources have you found to be really helpful as you’ve navigated this topic of personal finance in the first 13 or 14 years of your career?

[0:31:35.0] BS: Yes, so there is a number of resources that I’ve sort of used and they all have a different role and what is good. But the ones that I sort of go through, and sort of subscribed to on a, I guess daily basis, so The White Coat Investor, I mentioned. He has a blog, a couple of really good books. His bootcamp, financial bootcamp book was really helpful because it sort of laid it out in a very algorithmic manner of like what you ought to do.

That helped me sort of make sure my disability insurance, life insurance was up to date and of adequate coverage. I like White Coat, after White Coat, I was looking at other resources that’s when I stumbled upon YFP and so that was really good. It was good to see there is something in the pharmacy space as well, and it was very helpful to see that it was the same message and so that sort of solidified what I was doing. I also like, I don’t know if you have ever heard of The Money Guy, it’s a YouTube channel.

[0:32:35.5] TU: No, I have not.

[0:32:36.5] BS: No? I really like them. It’s a podcast that’s done by, and they have a YouTube channel of two CPAs/CFPs. And the way they present content is very approachable, very digestible. It’s very beginner-friendly. The one thing that I like most that they have that’s for free is what they call the financial order of operations, and for me, that was something I wish I had ten years ago because I was just trying to think about paying off debt but I didn’t know what to do next with my next dollar.

The way they laid it out it optimizes every single dollar to meet your goals. And so from the tax standpoint, from a matching standpoint, paying off debt, all of those considerations. And so it’s very easy and approachable to do an action plan, so I found that to be helpful.

Another thing to consider about the need for personal finance education in pharmacy curriculum is that there is data out there that shows that students, their career choices after graduation are impacted by their perception and stress related to their student debt and not knowing how to handle it. There is data that shows that folks are less likely to pursue post-graduate training and enter the workforce directly because they want to pay off their loans.

I think the profession will be served best by having this so that students when they graduate, they know what to do and have a plan and that way, they’re making their career choices because that is what they want to do not because they feel like they have to and so I think that will probably help our graduates the most in our profession by incorporating it.

[0:35:05.5] TU: Bhavik, I appreciate the resources and the recommendations. We’re going to link to those in the show notes, you mentioned The White Coat Investor, The Money Guy, YFP, I appreciate the shout out and I suspect our community will find those resources helpful. Bhavik, thank you so much for taking time to come on the show, for reaching out and I really appreciate your willingness to share your story with the YFP community and also very much appreciate your passion for teaching personal finance to others, so thank you again.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:35:33.6] TU: It’s American Pharmacist Month and to honor the occasion, GoodRx created the Above and Beyond Pharmacy Awards. These awards recognize pharmacy professionals that go the extra mile every single day to improve the health of their patients and communities and we need you, the pharmacy community to nominate your incredible colleagues, pharmacists, technicians, residents and interns that show true leadership, compassion, pride and dedication.

Pharmacy professionals are on the frontlines working every day to transform their communities. The time has come to show them some appreciation. Nominations are open now through November 19th, 2021 and recipients will receive education credits and more. Go to goodrx.com/pharmacy-awards to nominate someone today. Again, that is goodrx.com/pharmacy-awards.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:36:24.2] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blogpost and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 228: Why This New Practitioner Decided to Start His Own Business

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Why This New Practitioner Decided to Start His Own Business

On this episode, sponsored by Thoughtful Wills, entrepreneur and pharmacist, Chris Cozzolino, talks about his journey building several businesses as a recent graduate.

About Today’s Guest

Chris Cozzolino is a recent pharmacy graduate (Class of 2020) from the University of Iowa and the Co-Founder of Uptown Creation, a B2B Business Development and Consulting Firm. Prior to pharmacy school, Chris founded an Amazon Dropshipping store, which he still has to this day. During his time in pharmacy school, he Co-Founded Uptown Creation. Uptown Creation began as an Instagram Growth and Consulting company but has evolved into a more full-service Business Development Firm. Chris has a passion for business and hopes to merge this with his love for the pharmacy community.

Episode Summary

Content creation for social media and personal branding has grown exponentially over the last couple of years but is still fairly new to the healthcare sector. Today on the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, host Tim Ulbrich speaks to pharmacist and co-founder of Uptown Creation, Chris Cozzolino, about his journey into the social selling space and how it aligns with his pharmacy education. Chris shares his non-traditional career arc, from making money using video games as a teenager to starting his own dropshipping business in college and now to running a hugely successful business development company focused on direct outreach campaigns. In this episode, Chris shares his passionate mindset about impactful contributions and innovatively using all the resources available to create something bigger than himself. Chris touches on strategies in the growth hacking space to build authentic relationships and a trustworthy reputation, as well as always keeping your endpoint in mind. Listeners will learn about the importance of knowing when to pivot your business, focusing on the end goal rather than attaching to a product or idea, plus you’ll hear some insightful perspectives about the benefits and challenges of diversifying across available platforms. Tune in today to hear all this and more!

Key Points From This Episode

  • Chris shares what drew him into the profession, and the freedom of remote working.
  • Reflecting on Chris’s non-traditional career path, and building something impactful.
  • How social media is a fascinating concept of reaching so many people at once.
  • How making money in a video game as a teenager galvanized his entrepreneurial spirit.
  • Discussing the big barriers to starting a business, like upfront capital and inventory holding times.
  • Optimization through combining drop shipping and retail arbitrage.
  • Chris outlines the challenges and opportunities of not working on your platform.
  • Having the best of both worlds by making the brand bigger than the platform.
  • Diversifying across platforms to build community and then converting that traffic.
  • How Uptown Creation was founded, and key pivots in their journey.
  • Learning the Instagram algorithm and their specific social media marketing tactics.
  • Chris shares about his pivot to LinkedIn and what the clients and services entail.
  • Building authentic relationships and a trustworthy reputation.
  • Why creating content is still really new for the healthcare sector.
  • Where Chris sees Uptown Creation heading in the next few years.
  • The concept of developing your craft, and always being able to be close to the ground.
  • Always keeping your endpoint in mind.

Highlights

“What I’m trying to create is being able to build something that’s bigger than myself.” — Chris Cozzolino [0:05:53]

“I don’t want to sell anything in a salesy way. I just want to make something that’s really good and then people can decide if they want it or don’t want it.” — Chris Cozzolino [0:22:57]

“That became the ethos of what we are today, is getting rid of bots and automation, putting a human in all the seats that a bot would be taking, and being able to have genuine interactions with people using the internet as a means to contact the right audience.” — Chris Cozzolino [0:25:11]

“I think a big thing that people do wrong in entrepreneurship is they fall too in love with the product or the service or that identity of what they’re doing, rather than the end impact that they’re trying to have.” — Chris Cozzolino [0:33:47]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had a chance to sit down with entrepreneur and pharmacist, Chris Cozzolino to talk about his journey with several businesses that he’s been involved with as a recent 2020 graduate of the University of Iowa. Some of my favorite moments and takeaways from this interview include, hearing from Chris about his decision as a new practitioner to not pursue a traditional career path, but rather start his own business. Also talking about why he is prioritizing LinkedIn as the platform to generate authentic conversations that promote personal and professional success. We dig into the work that he is doing as the co-founder of Uptown Creation, a B2B business development and consulting firm. Really cool story, one of my favorite episodes of this year of a pharmacy entrepreneur who is using his PharmD in a non-traditional way.

Before we jump into the episode, I want to invite you to a free webinar that’s happening on November 10th at 8:30 PM Eastern. Dr. Jeff Keimer, our good friend and author of Fire RX: The Pharmacist’s Guide to Financial Independence will be joining me to talk about the FIRE movement aka Financial Independence, Retire Early. How pharmacists can overcome common barriers to achieving financial independence, how to calculate your retire and need and some investment considerations for those that are on the FIRE path. Plus, if you attend the webinar live, you will be entered for a chance to win a copy of Jeff Keimer’s book, Fire RX.

You can register by going to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/webinar. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/webinar.

All right. Let’s hear from today’s sponsor, Thoughtful Wills and I will jump into my interview with Chris. This week’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist podcast is sponsored by Thoughtful Wills. Let’s take a minute to hear from co-founder, Notesong.

[00:01:57] N: Hi, there. I’m Notesong, one of the founders of Thoughtful Wills. Our law firm specializes in creating custom estate-planning documents that are understandable. We’ve leveraged technology to offer a lower price point than most law firms. Honestly, it’s refreshingly affordable. As our client, you’re in the driver seat. We’re here if and when you have any questions or just want our input. Our explanatory worksheet and online interview gathers your answers whenever and wherever is most convenient for you.

As a busy mom of three sweet kids and two fluffy sheepdogs, I totally get it. Life is crazy busy. Who has the time? We designed our firm around that too and we poured our hearts into making our estate-planning process less of a hustle. I invite you to visit thoughtfullwills.com/fyp to learn more. Give us a jingle or drop us a note. We’d love to chat with you.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:51] TU: Chris, welcome to the show.

[00:02:53] CC: Yeah, thanks for having me, Tim.

[00:02:54] TU: Really excited to have you on and feature your entrepreneurial story and how that’s connected in with your pharmacy journey. One thing I’ve mentioned on the show over the last several months is a goal, I have to feature more pharmacy entrepreneurial stories with the hopes that more folks will see the PharmD as a potential pathway, they can go many different directions. My thought is not that, folks hear Chris’s story and say, “I’m going to go do exactly that.” But rather it inspires and motivates folks to think differently about how they might leverage and utilize PharmD. Chris and I actually share a mutual friend, Ashley Klevens Hayes that connected the two of us. We had Ashley on this show, Episode 95 when we talked about how to level up your career.

Just a couple weeks ago, Chris and I did a LinkedIn live and I left that conversation, really feeling energized and motivated to take some of the expertise and information I learned from Chris to accelerate our own business at YFP, and to be able to serve and fulfill the mission that we have to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. So excited to introduce Chris to the YFP community if you don’t already know him.

Chris, before we get into your entrepreneurial journey, share a bit about your background, where you went to pharmacy school. when you graduated, and what drew you into the profession.

[00:04:12] CC: Originally, I am from the southwest suburbs of Chicago. When I was looking at universities and everything, University of Iowa was close enough to be close to family, but far enough away to still get away, like you’re trying to do early in college. I was lucky that they have a great health care program going into it, I knew that I wanted to do something in healthcare. I grew up in a family, my dad was in the state police, my mom was a dietician, and my brother has cystic fibrosis and is doing really well with it. But I kind of saw medications my whole life. That was a big part of being interested in medicine.

Then going in early to college, really fallen in love with chemistry. I just really enjoyed those classes and also the – just the philosophical concept of being able to take a substance in medication that can then solve a problem, and providing control to otherwise uncontrollable situations. That’s kind of how I’ve always thought about medicine as it puts control back into people’s hands, which was a nice thought and I liked that component of everything.

Then the other big aspect of going to – I went to pharmacy school at University of Iowa. The big thing that drew me to pharmacy, outside of all those other things, was the ability to work remotely, and to be able to work in different places. A lot of times if you’re a physician or a dentist even, you kind of set up practice, and there’s a lot of opportunity to be entrepreneurial. But once you set up that practice, you’re building your book of business, and you’re kind of set there. Obviously, you can build it bigger, you can move yourself out of the role. But I liked the idea of being a pharmacist, there’s CVS, Walgreens pharmacies all across the country. So if I wanted to travel or live in different locales, it was very doable.

Then also, after that realization that I wanted the freedom to be able to move around, I also realized that there was a remote component with medication therapy management and those roles that were popping up. The concept of working remotely, before it was so common practice, was another thing that kind of drew me into the space.

[00:06:28] TU: Chris, you mentioned some things that I would think of as more traditional that drew you into the profession, in terms of some of the science chemistry, obviously the ability, the impact on patient care. But you’re taking a very non-traditional career path. I don’t know if I love that term, because I’m hoping we’ll get to a point where, you know, we recognize to my comment earlier that the PharmD is really just the beginning of one’s career path and their opportunities.

But when folks hear me say non-traditional, they know what I mean. So you’re relatively young in your career, you haven’t taken that traditional clinical pharmacy job where you’re utilizing your PharmD as much on a direct patient care. We’re going to talk about the work that you’ve done in various entrepreneurial efforts, whether it be the dropshipping business, other summer accelerator programs, the work that you’re doing uptown creation. But nonetheless, it’s been in a different direction.

My question here for you is, like what’s the why behind that as you reflect back on this first part of your career, like, why not a traditional career path? Why do you think you’ve gone in this other direction?

[00:07:30] CC: Yeah, that’s a good question. I think the biggest thing for me is, I’ve always enjoyed creating things and being able to play around. There’s a lot of opportunity to do that within healthcare and within pharmacy. Even though the projects that I’m working on right now, I have an inkling that it will come back to healthcare and come back to pharmacy in one way or another, where I’m able to tie entrepreneurship, growing companies, and doing that within a healthcare model. But the other thing that has always been kind of an ethos of what I’m trying to create is being able to build something that’s bigger than myself. If I’m trying to have as large of an impact on the world, as I want to have, knowing that, I’m going to have to take a lot of things out of my hands, and be able to build a machine or a processor system that is able to put other people into seats that can extend that reach.

That’s kind of one of the concepts of why social media, the internet, and being able to reach a lot of people at once has always been a fascinating concept to me. Because the impact that you’re able to have, as an everyday human is pretty robust with everything that we kind of have at our fingertips.

[00:08:50] TU: A really unique opportunity, right, in the time that we live in. Your desire for contribution, Chris really stands out to me. I just finished reading The War of Art by Steven Pressfield, which is just an awesome, awesome book. He’s got a follow-up called Turning Pro. One of my favorite passages from that book, as he says, “Creative work is not a selfish act, or a bid for attention on the part of the actor. It’s a gift to the world and every being. Don’t cheat us of your contribution, give us what you’ve got.”

I sense that desire in the conversations you and I have had, and we’re going to talk about how that’s threaded throughout your journey. But I often wonder, and obviously, I’m looking at it through the lens of the financial plan, sometimes being a barrier to folks being able to achieve some of the potential that they have, and the ideas that they want to contribute. We’re passionate about that part of it.

But I often wonder as a profession, what could we fully contribute, if everyone’s giving everything they’ve got, and they have that mindset and we remove some of the barriers. I think sharing your story and others is hopefully a source of motivation and inspiration for folks that consider that question.

Chris, your entrepreneurial journey, we’re going to talk in a little bit about the business that is today, in terms of what you’re doing with Uptown Creation. But you know, I think with most entrepreneurs, they can point back to a younger version of themselves, where maybe it wasn’t a formalized LLC or business structure, and you didn’t have a team and employees, but you’re hustling in some entrepreneurial way. Take us back to when you can remember that entrepreneurial journey beginning for you.

[00:10:24] CC: Yeah. I think the start was really, when I was like 12 or 13 and playing World of Warcraft, a video game, and seeing digital currencies that people wanted, and digital assets that people wanted, which is a whole another conversation that has started up again with NFTs and everything. But being able to sell like gold in World of Warcraft was the first way that I made money before even having a job. And then I started to referee as a soccer referee and then had a variety of jobs from there.

But really, that first playground that I had was being in a video game and kind of trying to learn supply and demand, but actually make money as a 13-year-old by selling a thousand gold coins through PayPal to random people on the internet was that original bug, I guess, where I was able to scratch that itch of fulfilling something.

Then, outside of that, I didn’t really do a whole lot other than having minimum wage jobs throughout my high school career and then early college. Then I always thought there was something that I was missing with, seeing stores buy something cheaper, and then sell it for more expensive and make money on that. It just seemed like such a simple concept that there had to be something that I was missing to – otherwise, everybody would be doing that.

It kind of coincided with Amazon Seller marketplace rising a lot and eCommerce rising a lot more. This was back when I was a junior in college. Probably 2015 was – yeah, a junior at Iowa. Yeah. I did my undergrad in biochemistry at Iowa.

When I was a junior, I was working as a pharmacy technician, I was working in a cystic fibrosis research lab. I was just looking for other ways to supplement income and the term dropshipping came up. And that’s something that I just became fascinated with because it was a way that you could sell physical products and not hold an inventory. That’s usually the biggest barrier I found with buying something cheaper, selling it for higher, is you have to put that upfront cost and to get that thing for cheaper, and then sit on that inventory to then be able to sell it. But drop shipping took away like that variability.

So the initial business that really got me involved in the entrepreneurship community at University of Iowa, which I’m lucky that they have such a good program and had so many connections, and ways to foster an environment. I know not every school has that. But that was the original business model.

To break it down even more simplistically, I was following somebody on Instagram, who was talking about finding products on eBay, and then selling those products on amazon.com and never having to purchase the product until it was already sold. Somebody would buy it from you on Amazon, you would get their shipping information, their name, and then you could take that information and go back to eBay, and put that into the shipment address, and then put your credit card information in and it would just ship the product directly to that Amazon customer and you collect the profit in between.

That was the first low barrier to entry that I had to be able to experiment again, and the risk was pretty low. I was able to do it with a credit line of like $1,000, because I was a college student with nothing but debt, and nobody wants to give you money or credit card, so I was able to do that with limited startup costs. That was a big factor of that being kind of the first step into, but I learned a lot about customer service, about human nature, and about expectations that people have when they’re purchasing something.

[00:14:10] TU: Yeah, and I love that as an example. As you mentioned, you know, some of the big barriers to starting a business can be upfront capital, can be inventory holding times, right? Especially when talking about product-oriented businesses. Being able to learn some of those lessons, which I would argue you probably already see a direct connection to the benefit that’s been and furthermore will into the future. But to be able to learn those lessons without having to go through that pain of going further into debt and so forth, extremely important to you. Did you continue that through pharmacy school then?

[00:14:42] CC: Yes, I continued that through pharmacy school and I continue that to this day, and it’s evolved a little bit more from an Amazon to eBay dropshipping model, so we have other suppliers. But the big versions of selling are selling products on Amazon and sourcing those from walmart.com and then vice versa. Selling things on walmart.com as a Walmart seller and sourcing those from amazon.com.

So really, the terminology for it, if people want to look it up, is a combination between dropshipping and retail arbitrage is really what it is. Retail arbitrage usually is done by people going into Walmart, finding a sale, checking it on other websites online. If they’re able to make money, then they’ll go check out at Walmart and then ship that product out. This is kind of the way to do it at scale without having to physically go into a store but just doing it online.

[00:15:34] TU: Chris, my naive – and I’m following the methodology, and I suspect we have many that are listening, maybe interested in a side hustle that are going to go down this rabbit hole, which is cool. My naive understanding of this type of opportunity brings up a question. I often think of businesses that might be built on the back of something else versus businesses that you have full control over.

We’re going to talk in a moment about what you do at Uptown Creation and in that environment. Chris and co-founder and partners can make decisions tomorrow, today and do what you want in terms of the business in the direction. When I think about a business model or a side hustle, whatever you want to call it, with something that we’ve been discussing that might be built on the back of like an eBay, or a Walmart, or an Amazon. What challenges does that present, as well as perhaps opportunities, how do you as an individual that is trying to grow something strategically, whether you look at that as a business or not? How do you plan for some of those unknowns that are out of your control when it’s not on your own platform?

[00:16:36] CC: Yeah. I think that is a great thing to bring up, and that that is one of the – I wouldn’t say risks, but one of the pitfalls is that, Amazon can stop people from selling at any point on their platform, and then you’re reliant on that as your sole business. You’re kind of at the mercy of whatever platform you’re using. By the benefit that you get is, you get all the attention that Amazon has and all the web traffic that Amazon has. That’s the benefit of using another platform that isn’t your own, but then you’re at the mercy of that platform at the end of the day.

That kind of goes into the whole social media part of things. Anybody who has tried to build a brand or build something on social media, probably understands that they’re at the mercy of that platform, whether it’s Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn.

To be able to mitigate your risk, I think first, being able to identify like that is a risk that needs to be overcome. I know with, let’s say, Instagram influencers, for example. If Instagram was to go away, so many of those influencers would be wiped off the face of the planet and nobody would know who they were. So being able to make the brand bigger than the platform is kind of the best of both worlds, in my opinion, whether it’s selling physical products, building your personal brand, or anything else where you’re leveraging something on the internet.

It’s a matter of being able to use that platform, that traffic, because it’s convenient and it drives a lot of traffic and attention. But then being able to do something with that, that you’re able to take people someplace else.

For example, if I wanted to make my Amazon business bigger than just my place on Amazon, I would include packing slips, for example, that would direct people to my personal website where they could check out the other products. Maybe there’s a little bit of a discount if they go there. But then now I’m taking the traffic from Amazon and directing it someplace that I have a little bit more control over.

[00:18:38] TU: And you see so many companies doing this, right, that are trying to get to that direct-to-consumer relationship and I think for the reasons that you’ve mentioned. That was a lesson, Chris, I learned early on in YFP. I think I might have picked up on that from some of Pat Flynn’s work with Smart Passive Income. The concept of being at the mercy of an algorithm, and that could change and has changed in different platforms. How do you diversify across platforms and then how do you utilize them not as the end game, but as a source to further promote, and build that relationship with the community, the audience that you have, and then convert that traffic?

Like for us, a big part of that is getting folks over to our platform, and thinking about a way we can then engage with them via email or other types of educational offerings that we want to do. But you know, if I’ve fully built the YFP community on the back of Facebook, or Instagram, or whatever, and something changed drastically tomorrow and I wanted to promote a webinar. All of a sudden, I don’t have an audience to promote to, right? I think there’s a lot of wisdom in what you said.

You started the dropshipping business while you’re in college, found some success in it. I’ve continued to grow it, but that didn’t stop you from starting another business. Talk to us about Uptown Creation, what it is, and what’s the story behind why you launched the business, and ultimately the problem that you’re trying to solve?

[00:20:01] CC: Yeah, that’s a great question. Uptown Creation was founded in early 2016, and with my current business partner, who also went to the University of Iowa, his name is Conor Paulsen, and we both had companies beforehand. He made a men’s leather good company, where it was very personalized leather good products that he was creating; bags, duffel bags, everything like that, belts. But you were able to have – his customer was able to have a part in the creation of it from meeting the leatherworker that’s going to be creating stuff, having things very, very customized. He was in a business where the customer relationship and their customer experience was really at the center of it, and that’s why they were able to do what they did because they provided a great customer experience.

Where what my business was, was more trying to scale things and do things at as large of a level as possible. Then kind of use the attention that was from another platform and drive it to myself. We became friends through the entrepreneurship communities at the University of Iowa, so the Founders Club was a club where you can kind of had to have a business, and then there were different tiers of it based on the income you were generating from your business. That allowed you to do pitch competitions, startup accelerators and everything.

Uptown Creation started in a startup accelerator at the University of Iowa. Conor, my business partner came to me and asked if I wanted to do this thing for the summer. We had some other people that were in it just for the summer. It started off as a YouTube company, essentially, which is nothing what it is today, but the goal of it originally was to be an educational company, and create YouTube videos to kind of teach people the things that college didn’t teach you. They went through that startup accelerator over the summer. I had already done one in the past, so I can be directly involved and compensated that way. But I kind of had a backburner role in it, and that was as I was entering pharmacy school in 2016.

At the end of that summer, Conor and I looked at each other and the other people that were involved, it turned out that we were the only ones that wanted to continue doing anything with the business. Now, it was Conor and myself, and we had to figure out kind of what to do.

That was the first big pivot is, we knew that we wanted to create some sort of education that we were able to provide other people, the format we weren’t married to. But we knew that YouTube was a way to make money from ads. But we knew that we also both had a background in selling physical products. This was at the same time that Instagram was initially talking about something called shopping on Instagram. This was back in 2016, they started to talk about it. It didn’t get launched until earlier this year, which is funny, but that drove us to learn Instagram.

One of the problems going back to Amazon, that Amazon selling brings up is that Amazon takes a 15% cut of everything that you’re selling. We were naturally looking for other ways to sell physical goods then and have a little bit less of a cut be taken. We saw Instagram as the potential for that if we were early on enough. We spent the next couple of months growing some Instagram accounts.

And long story short, we realized that we were really good at growing communities on Instagram and growing Instagram accounts that people started to come to us and want to pay us for that. When you are making no money as a business, and you have people that want to pay you for something that you’re doing, you usually take that opportunity, so you can keep the business going.

So that was kind of the next big pivot. Maybe we’re not going to sell our own educational resources or our own physical products on Instagram. Maybe we’re just going to help people do Instagram better than what they’re doing currently and then let them get more attention for whatever they’re working on whatever products they’re working on.

That kind of put me down the rabbit hole of learning the Instagram algorithm really, really well. Learning social media marketing tactics specific to Instagram, better than most people I can think of, and doing that through online forums, and the underground communities that exist in the growth hacking space. I was in pharmacy school, and also simultaneously doing that. I like to learn things, so that was a good hobby to have outside. But then we started bringing clients and people started to want to pay us for these Instagram services. Unfortunate that – so this is I guess a good touchpoint to have.

Another reason why my business partner and I decided to go into business together was, we complemented each other very well. He is very front-end sales, talking to people, networking, probably the best networker I’ve ever met in my life. And I was very – I don’t want to sell anything in a salesy way. I just want to make something that’s really, really good and then people can decide if they want it or don’t want it. I’ve always been more of the service fulfillment and service creation component of the business. Whereas, I had a partner early on that did the things that I didn’t want to do. I think that’s imperative because that set us up for success.

[00:25:28] TU: I think you’ve done that really well, Chris. Like when I look at – if folks haven’t looked – we’ll link in the show notes to some of the educational content that you’ve done on LinkedIn, which we’ll talk about here in a moment on YouTube. I think you have very much that persona of a desire to provide good value and good education. From there, I suspect the business development opportunities come to be so that complementary approach between you and your partner, I can see why that was so important and the value that you bring to the team.

Pivot is a word you mentioned a couple of times. You mentioned the beginnings with YouTube, the pivot to Instagram. And now I understand much of the work that you’re doing focuses on LinkedIn. Talk to us about that pivot to LinkedIn, and some of the services that you offer now and the types of clients that you serve.

[00:26:16] CC: Definitely. As a commonality that – about all the businesses that I’ve started have been kind of built on the backbone of something that already has a lot of attention, whether it’s Amazon selling, whether it’s Instagram, whether it’s LinkedIn, business development. It’s always been being able to drive attention from something else. As I mentioned, you’re also at the mercy of that platform. We were using a lot of bots and automation on Instagram, found out Instagram doesn’t really like that too much. They do their best to keep that stuff off of the platform.

We realized that if we wanted to scale the business, we needed to not have those variables, because it was easy to have 50 clients, 100 clients. But if we wanted to ever grow bigger than that, we wouldn’t be able to wake up one day and Instagram changes their algorithm and now we have to rethink our whole process and deal with customer service of 100 people.

That led us down, “Okay. What if we just played within what the social media platforms want us to do anyways? That’s creating real conversations, having a very human component to things.” That became the ethos of what we are today, is getting rid of bots and automation, putting a human in all the seats that a bot would be taking, and being able to have genuine interactions with people using the internet as a means to contact the right audience. As Uptown Creation sits today, it’s a business development company really focused on direct outreach campaigns.

What that looks like in practice is, targeting people on LinkedIn, and then starting conversations in their inbox, but not the spammy messages that everybody receives. More of a message, you know, I think given that example. If I was going to reach out to you, Tim, I would go to the YFP website, I would look at a podcast, I would try to find an episode where I’m able to bring up a guest name, listen to the first 10 minutes. And now, when I message you, I’m going to bring those things up. That’s how I’m going to inevitably start that conversation and hopefully get you to respond. Because while you have 20 other messages that are clearly spammed out to everybody, this is the message that you know is sent to you directly.

[00:28:26] TU: That’s how genuine conversations, and rich relationships, and meaningful long-term relationships start, right? Is having a true vested interest in someone else and identifying where that collaboration can happen. I love that approach and as I mentioned, we’ll link in the show notes. You did a great series on YouTube going step by step through the LinkedIn process, and what you guys have done with clients in terms of looking at that as a business development opportunity.

When I look at Chris, your LinkedIn presence, and again, we’re talking here from the mindset of, it’s not just about the number of followers and how many people do message, but authentic relationships. And the fact that you’ve been able to build those authentic relationships also build a large profile, a large following of what you do, I think over 20,000 something, folks that are following the work that you’ve done. Talk to us about the positive impact that has had on you professionally, personally, as well as for the business and what you’re doing at Uptown Creation?

[00:29:24] CC: Yeah. So personal branding has been kind of a buzzword that I’m sure everybody’s heard. That was a big component of the work I was doing on Instagram, a big component of what people talk to you about as you’re going through pharmacy school. The way that I like to talk about personal branding is really, it being your reputation, and nothing more, nothing less than that. But personal branding, kind of being the online word for it.

But in the real world, you have a reputation, people think of you or hear your name, and they think certain thoughts or remember certain things that they’ve seen. Really, since I’ve done so much consulting work with clients of trying to get them to create content, trying to get them to spread their message, use the free traffic that the internet provides. I realized I needed to also do that myself and be a practitioner of that, which was uncomfortable for me at first, because that’s not my natural way of being.

I think a lot of people think that, “Oh! If somebody is creating content or creating videos, like they’re seeking attention, they’re more outgoing than I am. They’re –”, all these other preconceived notions that people may have. When in reality, it’s really just being an effective communicator, and also building your reputation online.

With the community that builds up through my own LinkedIn outreach and content creation, there’s been a lot of great relationships that I’ve made. I mean, this is one of them, because I don’t think I would have ever met you, Tim, if I didn’t have those other interactions with other pharmacists that say, “You really need to talk to this guy.”

Just from a sheer meeting people in the industry component, I don’t think that that can be understated, how much that has helped. I mean, even with jobs that I’ve been offered in pharmacy, specifically, and just the conversations I’ve been able to have with people greatly exceeded my expectations. The cool thing about it, especially in health care, and pharmacy is that, in the entrepreneurship communities and business, this is nothing new. Everybody’s been creating content for a decade or more since YouTube came out as a platform. It’s still really new for healthcare. There’s not a lot of people that are known for things online, or have a brand. I think, ZDoggMD is probably one of the biggest brands that exists that a lot of healthcare people know. It can set you up for speaking engagements, for having those side hustles, those side gigs, but also creating something that you’re known for that then you can progress your career with.

[00:32:01] TU: I would add too, Chris. I think the benefits professionally to many folks, I think may seem fairly obvious in terms of opportunities, and the network, and the relationships that come from that or in your case, what that means for the business. I also just get a ton of fulfillment, and joy in really connecting with other pharmacists, learning about what people are working on, what problems they’re trying to solve, opportunities that have frustration challenges.

That’s one of the things I love most about the work I do at YFP, is I get to have conversations like this, or talk with prospective clients and pharmacists all across the country in all different phases of their career. The point I’m making is, don’t underestimate folks listening of, yeah, I mean, it’s going to have professional benefits for sure. But also, just some of that personal satisfaction and joy that can have from developing those meaningful relationships.

Chris, I know at the time of recording, you’re doing some strategic planning for the business right now. I’m curious, as you think about the evolution of the business thus far, you’ve talked about a couple of pivots that you’ve made, you put your hand on the crystal ball, like what does Uptown Creation look like in three or five years? Where do you guys see yourself going?

[00:33:09] CC: Yeah, that’s a great question. I want to make it like explicitly clear that Uptown Creation started as making YouTube videos on the Internet, went to Instagram, and is now at a completely different spot with direct outreach marketing. I think that’s a good learning lesson for a lot of people in that, especially pharmacists that are looking to do anything outside of pharmacy, or even just start a side hustle. It’s good to get out of your own way sometimes, and just start and know that it’s going to evolve into something else and that’s okay, as long as whatever that end mission or that end goal is being accomplished.

I think a big thing that people do wrong in entrepreneurship is they fall too in love with the product or the service or that identity of what they’re doing, rather than the end impact that they’re trying to have. If you know that the journey to getting to that end can change and it’s okay. I think that makes it a lot more freeing, that it doesn’t have to be what you’re doing right now, but you have to start to be able to get to that endpoint.

Going back to your question of kind of what the outlook for Uptown Creation is. We are very clear now kind of what we’re good at what we do, and that is direct outreach marketing. Meaning, you can use paid ads, Facebook ads, and other paid forms of traffic online to bring people in and that’s what’s called a one-to-many approach. You’re showing an ad to thousands of people. Well, we are the experts at, and growing our services in, is the one-to-one approach, and being able to have very specific targeted conversations.

So as the mediums change that are effective right now, LinkedIn, email marketing, even cold calling, and cold texting are still really effective ways if your targeting is right, but that’s going to change over the next five to 10 years, which is okay. LinkedIn might not be the best platform to do outreach on and that’s not where people are hanging out online. That’s when we’ll make more pivots, but really being on the bleeding edge of direct outreach, marketing, conversational marketing. Social selling is the term, that’s another buzzword, is where we’re headed over the next five years.

[00:35:24] TU: I love that. It’s so in line with what you just shared, which is great advice for folks that are growing something or thinking about something is, keeping that goal and vision you have in mind, understanding the methodology of getting there might change, likely will change, just given how quick things are evolving today.

[00:35:42] CC: The one thing that I want to plug as well, because I think that this is like interesting insight for people. The reason why marketing and direct outreach is interesting to me as – I’m 27 right now. I plan to have other businesses. I want to do things in healthcare. But if I’m able to build this engine of direct outreach, bringing in traffic, starting conversations, this is something that I can apply to future businesses that I create regardless of the industry. Building this engine early on in my career, that can then be applied to other companies in the future.

[00:36:17] TU: Great stuff. Chris, I want to talk about the concept of developing your craft. I’m a follower of the Uptown newsletter. This morning came out and you said the following, “What I love most about Uptown Creation is that what we do just makes sense. It makes sense that reaching out to someone on the Internet is an extremely personalized way, it would elicit a response. This is what sets the framework for us as an organization. As the marketplace continues to evolve, we will evolve faster because we are practitioners of our craft, and practitioners always win.” What does it look like to be a practitioner of your craft? What do you mean by that?

[00:36:55] CC: Yeah, and that’s a little Gary Vaynerchuk insight there. It was somebody that I follow and admire. But really, being the person that’s doing the thing that you’re selling, or the thing that you want to be known for can’t be overstated. That’s why there’s so many pharmacists out there that are experts in oncology, experts in nutrition, experts in all these different fields that are practitioners every single day, and have things that are worth sharing to people that aren’t doing that every single day, even if you don’t really see that yourself.

If you’re doing something every single day, you are an expert, whether you like it or not in that thing, and you know, more than 99.9% of the population that’s not in that thing. Really making sure that you always have your finger on the pulse so to speak, and by doing whatever you’re known for, or whatever you’re in business for, you can never be blindsided.

I think a lot of business owners start to grow as a company, and you have to put other people into a lot of the seats that you were doing before. But always being able to be close to the ground and be doing things yourself that are directly related can’t be overstated, because that’s the way that you stay up to date.

[00:38:17] TU: Great stuff, Chris. Really enjoyed the conversation. Appreciate you taking time to come on and share your story. Look forward to having you back on the show in the future as you further develop some other projects that are coming. What’s the best way that folks can connect with you and reach out to you if they have a question or want to learn more about the work that you’re doing?

[00:38:35] CC: Yeah, connecting with me on LinkedIn is probably the best. So Chris Cozzolino. Then my email address if anybody wants to email me is [email protected] and checking out uptowncreation.com is probably the next best way to learn more about what we’re doing.

[00:38:52] TU: Awesome. We will link those in the show notes so folks can reach out to Chris. Chris, thanks again for your time.

[00:38:58] CC: Yeah, I’m excited for future conversations.

[OUTRO]

[00:38:59] TU: Today’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist podcast was sponsored by our friends at Thoughtful Wills. If you haven’t created your estate plan yet, we urge you to reach out to Notesong and Nathan. They draft custom estate-planning documents like wills, trust, healthcare directives and durable powers of attorney that fit your situation and reflect your wishes. This is key. These are custom legal documents created and reviewed by actual attorneys.

Thoughtful Wills created two cut-to-the-case packages designed for pharmacists who are ready to get their estate planning in order. You’ll really appreciate their dedication to approachable lawyering and they charge about half of what most law firms charge for the same documents. These documents are such a gift to your loved ones. If you haven’t created them yet, please just get it done. Reach out to Notesong and Nathan by going to thoughtfulwills.com/yfp. Go ahead and book a meeting with them. They’ll take such good care of you.

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it’s not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog post and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist, unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclamer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 227: Why Tim Baker, CFP® Bought a Depreciating Asset

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Why Tim Baker, CFP® Bought a Depreciating Asset

On this episode, sponsored by GoodRx, Tim Baker talks about his recent decision to buy a depreciating asset, how his journey becoming a Registered Life Planner® (RLP®) impacted his decision, and how he coaches clients considering big financial purchases.

Summary

Your Financial Pharmacist co-owner & YFP Planning Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, talks about his recent decision to buy a depreciating asset. He explains why he would purchase an asset that he knows will go down in value and how it became part of his financial plan.

Tim shares what the depreciating asset purchase is and how he and his wife arrived at their decision. After learning a bit about life planning and its incorporation with the financial plan, Tim realized that one of his goals was to make lifelong memories with his family. Tim and his wife decided that purchasing a motorhome was part of their life plan, allowing them to take adventures across the country, creating those lifelong memories, as Tim did with his own family growing up.

He explains how his journey to becoming a Registered Life Planner® (RLP®) surfaced this experience-based purchase and how the financial plan can and should support the life plan. Tim further details his coaching philosophy when working with clients weighing whether or not to make a large purchase. He considers the entire picture, not just the ones and zeros, creating a plan that benefits the client financially, balancing financial wealth with the client’s idea of a wealthy life. Investing in yourself in ways that align with what a wealthy life means to you ultimately makes for a healthy financial plan by taking care of the whole person.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker: Yeah, good to be back, Tim. Thanks for having me on.

Tim Ulbrich: Before we jump into your story of purchasing a depreciating asset, you and I were talking this past week about how grateful we are for the journey that has been this podcast over the past several years. We started Episode 01 back in July 2017, didn’t know exactly where we were going to go, how long we were going to do it, but are grateful to be here today, over 225 episodes in, three different shows on the channel each week, recently surpassing an important milestone: 750,000 downloads of the show, so pretty awesome, right, to reflect on that journey?

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s incredible, really. You know, we talk with a lot of prospective clients that we work with one-on-one with YFP Planning. You know, when you get those comments of like, ‘I’ve been listening to you for so long,’ and you kind of build a relationship with your listeners and you know, after the red drains from my face experience in that, it’s also very something that I’m proud of and I think we should be. And it’s been a good forum to really showcase, you know, like what we believe and our approach to money, and I think this is — and wealth building — and I think this particular episode is another step in that. And you know, it’s just been a great forum for us I think to take something that maybe is a little bit — can be a little bit dry and boring for people and get them excited about it. And I think the podcast has been one of the most monumental things that we’ve done. And that was really kind of the first big thing that we’ve done together, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: And I think it’s been just a great launchpad for our partnership.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And one of the great joys we have is, you know, we get periodic emails from those that are listening to say, “Hey, Tim, I was listening to this podcast and I did this or it inspired me to take some action or to work toward this goal,” and you know, those mean so much to us. I think the goal with this podcast is to hopefully inspire, to motivate, to educate, and we believe this topic is a lifelong journey. It’s something that we’ve practiced in our own lives and I’m hopeful that folks find it as a source of inspiration. So all this to say thank you, thank you to the community for listening, for staying with us, for sharing the good news with others as well, and we appreciate those that have been listening to the podcast and many who have even contributed with being a guest on the show. Alright, Tim, it’s confession time. So I’m putting you on the hot seat in front of the 35,000 or so folks that listen to the show each month to really, you know, ask you why as a financial planner did you decide to make a purchase of a depreciating asset. And so let’s just start with the purchase. What was it? When did you make it? And give us a little bit of the why behind that.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so my wife and I, we purchased a Class C Thor motorhome over the summer. It’s about 30-31 feet. It sleeps 10, so it has a bunkhouse, you know, bunker with a cab, kitchen, bathroom, you know, the whole — dinette — the whole 9. And yeah, we purchased it over the summer from a guy here in Ohio. And it was a long time coming — well, I wouldn’t say a long time coming. It was and it wasn’t. But that was the purchase that we made, and for someone who is very much thinking about finances and things like this and growing wealth, this was not necessarily a move that helps in that department. You know, lots of storage costs and repairs and it’s a 20 — I think it’s a 2014 with about 40,000 miles on it, storage, insurance, the tax that we paid on all that stuff adds up. But probably one of the better decisions I think I’ve made, even in — it’s early, so check in with me later — but I think just great in terms of what I think this can do for our family and the experiences that we can have. And that’s really the crux of why we decided to kind of pull the trigger on this.

Tim Ulbrich: So it’s been over a month, right, now, maybe even two?

Tim Baker: Yeah. I think we bought it in August.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Tim Baker: So we’re recording here in October. I think August is when we purchased it. Yeah. So — and back up, like this was something — and I give my parents a lot of credit growing up. When I was preteen, my parents bought — we first had a travel trailer growing up, so like we had one of those old conversion minivans and a travel trailer. And we took a trip when the three of us were I think preteens. I have an older brother and a younger sister. And we did four weeks, and I grew up in south Jersey, kind of outside of Philadelphia. And we did a four-week trip to as far west as the Grand Canyon, Mount Rushmore, the Alamo, Yellowstone. And for me, that was transformational. And I think that’s one of the words that I would use for this episode is really that. And you know, it kind of really changed my perspective, oh wow, when you drive west, there’s just — just the topography and there’s just so much to see and people are just different and they speak different. And it really broadened my — I don’t know if I would say worldview, but at least my domestic view of the United States and really kind of lit a fire for me to want to travel and see other things. You know, we did other trips outside of that and my parents would take it up to West Point for football weekends, and it was always like a great reprieve, like being able to go inside and like kind of hang — like chill and not always be buttoned up in uniform and things like that. So I kind of just equated that to freedom. And for awhile, you know, I was like, man, I would love to do this with — I was first thinking like when I retire, so like when I’m in my 60s, 70s, and you know, get a big old rig and drive around. But I just started thinking more and more, and as I went through my experience with life planning, really kind of changed my perception or at least my timeline, so to speak.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, I want to talk for a moment, you know, we talk on this show before we — I know the planning team does as well. Anytime you’re making a significant purchase or any purchase, for that matter, it means you’re not doing something else with that money, right? So the economic term here being opportunity cost. So you know, as you’re looking at making this large purchase, I know I’ve heard you talk about real estate as a goal, obviously something that you and I are both bullish on and see a growing interest in our community and in large part why we’ve got the podcast that David Bright and Nate Hedrick are doing a bang-up job leading each and every Saturday. So whether you look at say, hey, could this money go to real estate? Could this money go into long-term investing or a brokerage account? You know, could this money go into the 529 account? I think this concept of opportunity cost is — we often talk about it in terms of the dollars and making a decision, but I think there’s also an opportunity cost to not making decisions as we make the connections of how our life plan is supported by the financial plan. So just to nerd out here for a moment, if you were to put $40,000 or let’s say $50,000 and save that for 40 years at 8%, you know, that’s $1 million. So there’s the $50,000 purchase, and then there’s that hidden cost of what that could be if that money were to grow over 40 years. So just talk us through that process as you evaluated this purchase. I suspect others might be thinking the same as they’re weighing big purchases. Like, how did you both consider the opportunity cost and then eventually get to the point where you overcame just the mathematical aspects of it to determine that this was the right decision for you, for the family, and the goals that you guys have?

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s a great question. And you know, I think for all the way up until almost like go time, you know, it was real estate investment. You know, we — my Ally account that this money was being, like where this money was, was called “Real Estate Investment Account.” It might still be called that. I don’t know if I ever changed it to like “Motor Home Account.” I mean, it’s fairly empty now. We paid cash for this, and I didn’t want to put a note on it, so I wanted to kind of keep in the budget that we were — that we had. But you know, I think it comes down to like windows, right? So I’m really bullish on real estate, and we have one property that we completely gutted and redid our home in Baltimore and are renting that out now since we’ve now moved out to Columbus, Ohio. And that’s been great. And I wanted, I definitely want to do more of this. But when I say “windows,” it’s kind of windows of time. And that’s what life planning is really about. And you know, specifically about the length of your life, but in this case, when we sat down and we were looking at our plan, I asked my wife Shea, I was like, “Is this really what you want to do?” And she’s like, “Yeah, of course it is. This has been — this is the plan.” And we kind of had this role reversal because I’m more of the — and I see this a lot in couples. I’m more of the person that is thinking like long-term and making sure that we’re doing what we need to do to have a wealthy life in the future. And my wife is typically like, hey, we’ve got to make sure that we’re doing — we’re living our life today.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: But in this case, it was kind of a little bit of a role reversal. And I asked like, you know, I asked the question, is this really what you want to do? And she’s like, well yeah, that’s the plan. But then once I said kind of a combination of these words, she’s like, you’re right. So I basically — what I said to her was, Olivia, our oldest — we have Olivia who turns 7 this Halloween, so in about a week or so. She’ll tell everyone about it. She turns 7 this year. And we have Liam, who turned 2 this year. What I was examining, like I was kind of thinking about this as like, we only really have with her, I don’t know, six, seven years maybe until, you know, we’re no longer cool, like she doesn’t want to hang out with us. You know, you get to the teen years —

Tim Ulbrich: And we’re running out of time.

Tim Baker: Yeah, we’re running out of time.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Tim Baker: And you know, I thought about that even with like the trip that I took that, you know, my brother two years older than me, he was kind of right on that preteen. And we had a good time, but I don’t know — like a summer or two after that, I don’t know if that trip would have worked. So when I put that in context in that kind of emotional tug that that gives you and specifically my wife, she’s like, where do we buy a motorhome? Like where do we do this? And that was really it. You know, that was really what brought us is that, you know, I view this purchase as an investment. You know, so many people view this as an expense. And if you do that, it doesn’t really work. And believe me, there are lots of expenses that are tied to this. But if you view this as an investment, you know, a memory-maker investment, that’s where it works. And I’ve had conversations, you know, we kind of bought the motorhome with my sister and her family in mind. They have twins that are a little bit older than Olivia and our boys are about 10 days apart, so they’re like best bros. So we kind of bought it with them in mind, hoping to share this with their family as well. But they’ve actually been thinking about buying their own and kind of doing big trips and like taking a year of that and all this kind of stuff. And for them, it’s hard to get — like they’re doing it down to the penny in terms of expenses. I’m just thinking — like it’s just tough, that’s a tough sell. It is a tough sell. And I get it. Like as a financial planner, it’s good to do that. But for me, this was really about letting go a little bit. And again, I know in the back of my mind that we’re going to be OK for the future and we’re doing a lot of things in that regard and we have a fully-funded emergency fund and all of those things. But to me, like the emotion, which is what drives our choices of I want my kids to experience similar things that I was fortunate enough to experience as I was growing up, and I think we only have a window of time — and not to say that when she’s a teen and things like that, but when you’re camping, like to me, it’s close quarters. Like you’ve really got to love your kids and your family and I think it gets harder as you get to be a little bit older. But that was the impetus, really. And a lot of that really is rooted in my own life planning journey of how we got to even make this transaction.

Tim Ulbrich: Such a good, reminder, Tim, about, you know, if we only look at the numbers — and here, you’re talking about one thing. I would argue that applies to other things as well where if you’re looking at this only as an expense, we would never make these life planning decisions.

Tim Baker: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: Or these decisions that spark the life, right? I mean, I get the numbers. If instead of buying a motorhome, whether that’s $40,000, $50,000, $60,000, whatever — let’s call it $50,000, if instead of buying the motorhome, you saved $50,000 and you put it into a long-term savings account and it grows for 40 years and you have $1 million. In one, we’re looking at $50,000 of a purchase that’s going to go down in value and has other expenses. And in the other, we’re looking at an investment that’s appreciating and is going to be worth $1 million or more. Like but what we’re really trying to highlight through this journey and through the discussion around the planning process and the importance of bringing out these goals and visions that you have for your plan and for the family and for you individually is that it can’t just be about the numbers and the expense. And Tim, you’ve mentioned a couple times now life planning. Tell us more about what is life planning and how did your journey in going through not only your own life planning but ultimately being registered as a life planner and being able to use that skill set for clients of YFP Planning and training the rest of the team? Like what is that life planning process? And how did going through that journey ultimately lead you down this decision here?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I found out about life planning kind of George Kinder, who’s kind of the founding father of life planning, and his three questions. And it’s something that once I went through the three questions myself years ago, I immediately incorporated that into kind of our goal setting. We call it Script Your Plan at YFP Planning. And we’re — that’s what we’re doing is we’re kind of saying, OK, now that we know kind of where we’re at, we’ve gone through a get organized, where is all the — what do the finances look like, let’s talk about where we want to go. So we do the three questions with clients now, but I think for me, what I — it was powerful to go through that myself when I was answering those questions, and I found out that there’s a registered life planning designation, RLP, that I just finished this year. And really, it’s been a couple years in the process that I have been going through that. What life planning is, to back up, they say it’s kind of financial planning done right. It’s really about putting first things first. You know, we often live our lives by like a paradigm that is not ours. It’s been kind of something that’s been dictated to us over the course of our lives, you know, get good grades, get a good job, earn a lot of money, that type of thing. But for a lot of us, we kind of get stuck on that, stuck in that, and we can sometimes fall into this state of not really examining our lives and not really saying like, is this really what I want? Is this what I’m doing right now, is this what a wealthy life is? And again, it’s not just about the 1s and 0s, it’s about what are you passionate about? What enriches your life? So years ago, I went out to Arizona and I did the first step, which was the seven stages of money maturity, which kind of focuses on listening, believe it or not. So as planners, we need to shut up. And so much of us, we see like student loans, OK, this is what you do, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And there’s a plan. But it’s really about focusing on your client and being there with them, being present with them, and not trying to overpower or not listen. And it’s about communication, kind of the client-planner attitudes, the biases and behaviors that we grow up with, so understanding that. You know, one being money is the root of all evil. Like where does that come from? Or you know, don’t trust — like some of those things were built into me I think. You know, my mom came from a very — her upbringing was tough. And I think some of those were kind of implanted on me. And you go, I have to understand that. And we see a lot of clients with that type of thing. So that was eye-opening. And really the next stage, which I think was truly transformational, was a five-day in-person training called The Evoke Life Planning Training. And this is where you actually go through the different stages of life planning. So I was life planned myself. And I life planned my partner Dan, so shout out to Dan. And I think this for me was very transformational. I kind of went into that training not knowing what to really expect but came out saying like, I am burnt out. My schedule is not mine. You know, kind of what I’m doing right now is not healthy. And from there, you know, I changed a lot of things. But the big thing that I took away from that was my vision meeting, which is the second — you know, it’s all about uncovering your kind of most exciting, meaningful, and fulfilling aspirations. And when Dan went through that with me and lit my torch, it was about really the motorhome and doing that with my family. And I still remember that meeting like it was yesterday. And you know, you go through that and you know, you create so much energy that that’s all I think about. Like that’s all I thought about for a while. And it took me longer than I thought to get it done, but you know, you could run through walls. And then finally, the life plan that you go through like a mentorship, which is like a six-month thing where you go through case studies and one-on-one guidance and group conferences and things like that. So that finished this year. And to me, the challenge that I have now is how do I best inculcate and integrate, I should say, the life planning methodologies into what we’re doing with clients. Right now, we do portions of it, and I tested out kind of the full Evoke method on clients and trying to figure out how to best balance getting to the core of what a client is passionate about but also making sure that we’re soothing the pain that are student loans, investments, tax questions, insurance, home buying, all that stuff. So that’s my challenge going forward. But I think to me, it’s where you really create and have meaningful relationships, meaningful conversations. And that’s what the RLP is about. And I think without me going through it personally, I don’t think that we would be at this step. And like I said, to go back to the whole if you invest this money, what would it be in 30 years? $1 million. I’m like, that’s great. But I would suspect that if you asked a 30-year-older version of myself, I would trade that $1 million for I think the experiences that we’re going to have with this investment, the RV, and with my family. And that’s I think what this is really about.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that’s what a good coach does, right, what you just mentioned there is ask that question or ask the right set of questions that get somebody thinking about what might 30-year-into-the-future self think of this looking back? And you know, I think there’s some good accountability in that process. I think as you’ve gone through the RLP and just briefly scratched the surface here, I think that has really enriched the planning process and obviously you seeing the value of that being able to bring that effort to clients of YFP Planning, so I’m grateful for that. Tim, I’m looking at your credentials now on LinkedIn. You’re starting to look like a pharmacist with all these letters after your name.

Tim Baker: Alphabet soup. Yeah, I know. I’m working on a few others.

Tim Ulbrich: I was going to say, you’ve got one coming down the pipe, right, the RICP is coming. So.

Tim Baker: Yeah, if I can study, if I can get studying for it, yeah. I mean — and again, I think, you know, one of the things that one of our core values at YPF is optimize you and you know, I’ve been in organizations where it’s stagnant because hey, we’ve figured everything out and we’ve seen everything. And I think that’s just poison to an organization. So you know, I’m not necessarily one for designations just to get them, but I look at it in terms of what can this provide to our practice? How can this further benefit the clients that we serve? And you know, I think that is important. And you know, having that. And it’s funny. I always kind of go back to this story. When I graduated from West Point, I’m like, ‘Well, that’s it. I’m done with school. I never have to pick up a book or do anything.’ And you know, really that changed more when I became an entrepreneur and now I’m a — I read all the time and listen to podcasts and I’m always trying to figure out ways to do things. And I think, you know, that’s the message really even to our clients is keep evolving and keep sharpening the salt, so to speak. You know, I think that it just, it leads to more of an enriched life but also I think it just can continually improve your skill set. And again, like the RLP, the Registered Life Planning, there are advisors, financial advisors, that have taken this training and have stopped being financial advisors. Like all they do is the front end life planning and then they hand it off to advisors. And I actually thought of like even doing that internally is you know, having just life planners that are doing this front-end work that it’s a form of planning, it’s a form of coaching, and then hand it off to our CFPs to kind of, you know, put a lot of that into practice. So it’s an option that I’ve been playing around with. And I think the cool thing about this is you don’t have to have all of the other financial designations to do this, but to me, it’s how do we further enrich ourselves, enrich the lives of our clients?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and you mentioned Kinder and the three questions. We’re going to link to those in the show notes for those that want to dig a little bit deeper. And for those that are hearing this in real time saying, “Hey, I’m really interested in having a financial plan that also considers some of what we’re talking about here around the life plan,” we would love to have an opportunity to talk with you to see if the services offered at YFP Planning are a good fit for you and the financial goals that you have. We do a free discovery call, you can learn more, schedule that at YFPPlanning.com. Tim, talk me through the process not only that you use but in coaching clients of YFPP that are making a big financial purchase, right? It could be a home, whether that’s a first home, an investment property, a vacation home, could be a car, could be a motorhome. What questions are you prodding to help them reflect upon that purchase that hopefully leads to a situation where there’s a purchase that has confidence behind it and not one that leads to buyer’s remorse?

Tim Baker: I think that you know, this is a process, right? So it’s not — you can’t look at it in a silo. I probably wouldn’t have made this type of purchase without a good, solid foundation. So like you know, cash emergency fund, a good savings plan beyond that, I think doing well in the investments, stable job, all those things. But beyond that, you know, like what we often ask clients is if we get into the Delorean, the imaginary Delorean, and we go ahead five years, like what does success look like? You know? If we look back at those five years. And I like to kind of equate age with that because I’m turning 40 next year, Tim, so like in 30 years, I’ll be 70, which is kind of like where my parents are. My dad’s a little bit older than that. So like trying to put myself in their shoes and like what do I want to accomplish because the further away it gets, the harder it is for us to kind of like feel that time. So I think framing it — and just for a lot of us, it’s actually just sitting down and actually asking some of these questions of ourselves. Like I said, I always tell the story when I was — my first job out of the Army was Sears/Kmart. So I would drive to work in the dark at 5 in the morning, and I would drive home in the dark at probably 6 at night or 7 at night or something like that. And those drives I would never remember. Like I would get in my car, and I was on autopilot. And so many of us, like that’s our life is like we’re not really thinking. It’s kind of an automatic thing, so like even asking ourselves these questions, so I think it’s — that’s part of it. It’s just going through that process and examining is this what we want to do? And if it’s not, what the heck are we doing about it? So like one of the things I say to prospective clients, you know, we might go through the wealth-building stage of the financial plan and we’ll do a nest egg calculation that says, ‘Hey, Tim, you need $5 million to retire.’ And that’s typically where they look at us like we have 5 million heads, right, because it’s a big number that’s in the future that doesn’t really mean anything to me. So you know, we go through the process of kind of discounting that back to a number that says, OK, if you’re putting this into your TSP or this into your IRA or this into your 401k a month, you’re on track or you’re off track, right? So we can kind of break that down into more of a digestible number to see if we’re trending to that goal given, you know, a handful of assumptions. But the point of this story is if we do work together for the next 30 years, and you don’t have $5 million, you have $7 million, $8 million, $10 million, whatever that is, that’s great. Like those numbers are bigger than $5 million. But if you’re miserable because you look back at that list of all the things that you wanted to do over 30 years, 20 years, 10 years, whatever that is, and you haven’t done anything and you’re miserable because of it or you’re disappointed, the question I would ask you is what’s the freaking point?

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: Why get this education, why earn this money, why pay down this debt, why invest, whatever, if we’re not going to intentionally direct it to the things that matter to you most? And I don’t think that I’m going to be on my death bed and I’m going to say, “I wish I would not have bought that RV.” I just don’t think that in my heart of hearts because of just — I just think about the reaction that my daughter and my nieces had, just when we pulled that up. And even the two camping trips that I had, I think I snapped a few pictures and texted them to you, Tim, even in our first camping trips, it’s going to be an adventure. And to extrapolate that out, like that’s our lives. Our lives are adventures. But we have to be willing to take it, you know, and seize it. And I think that’s what life planning really tries to get to the surface is what is that adventure? And taking that road and not necessarily adapt to a paradigm that’s not yours.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and you talked about this, I think there’s some really practical things, right, making sure do I have a good foundation in place? We talked about that on Episode 212, you know, what does it look like to have a good, strong financial foundation in place. You know, looking at the value that this purchase is going to add, what are the alternatives, right? We talked a little bit about opportunity cost. You know, waiting a little bit before making that purchase and feeling that peace and the thought that went behind making the decision. But you know, as you highlighted, I think the example of fast forward looking back and really asking some good questions to reflect on that, so, so important. So and you mentioned that — if I heard you correctly — it’s the Thor, right? Which is great. I just see like Tim Baker behind the wheel of the Thor and think of the Thor films, which is fantastic.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Where has it gone so far? Where is the Thor going in the future?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so we’ve just done basically weekend trips in Ohio. We’ve just done camping sites that are within a few hours’ drive. So we went up to Cedar Villa one — that was our most recent one. I think next year it’s really looking at some of the national parks. And it’s a lot — it actually is different than growing up. Like you have to book these pretty well in advance, so if we want to go to Yosemite or things like that. And you know, I kind of look at this as like, you know, some summers of adventure is really to get the kids, especially when Olivia is not in school, and go out and do it, you know? And you know, a lot of it is, you know, just being outside of your comfort zone. I don’t think I’ve ever driven something this big, but it’s fun. And you know, it can be a little stressful, and that can be true for whatever your life plan is is that it can be outside of your comfort zone. But it’s one of those things that, again, I’m tooling down the road and I look back and the two boys are in their car seat just gabbing on and the girls are doing their thing. And it’s brought me a lot of fulfillment already, and I think one of the things Shea and I have a long drive here this afternoon heading back to Maryland for a wedding. That’s one of the things we’re going to talk about too is what is the slate of trips? And start scheduling them. And I’m really excited for that. So it’s a journey. And I’m excited, I’m excited for what’s in front of us and again, to me, I look at this as a window of time with our kids. But just to extrapolate that out further, like we have a window of time, which is our life. And again, to kind of bring it back to life planning, it’s really important that we’re taking full advantage of that and not necessarily leaving anything on the table.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, one of the things we’re blessed with here in Ohio, Tim, shout out to the Buckeye State, is just some awesome state parks. So you know, trips locally and I know you’ve got a sabbatical coming up here. So one of the benefits we offer for the team at YFP is when you get to the five-year mark, we’ve got a month off and some funds to take a trip with the idea that we’re supporting the things that are central to the life plan. So pressure’s on, Tim, to be planning that, that sabbatical when it comes to the motorhome. Great stuff, Tim. Appreciate your willingness to share the story. And again, for those that are hearing this and interested in taking that next step with the financial plan, especially considering some of the dreams and goals that you have for you individually or for you and your family, love the opportunity to talk about the services at YFP Planning. You can learn more and schedule a free discovery call at YFPPlanning.com.

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YFP 222: Why Estate Planning is Such an Important Part of the Financial Plan

Posted on by yfpadmin


Why Estate Planning is Such an Important Part of the Financial Plan

On this episode, sponsored by Thoughtful Wills, estate planning attorneys, Notesong Thomson and Nathan Kavlie, discuss estate planning and its importance in the financial plan.

About Today’s Guests

Notesong and Nathan, Co-Founders, Approachable Attorneys, Thoughtful Wills

Notesong and Nathan met in junior high in Jamestown, North Dakota – a friendship forged in orchestra concerts and speech meets – much laughter in hallways and early-90s nerdiness.

They both started law school in 2001, bonding over the exciting concepts they were learning, the intense 1L reading requirements, and Legally Blonde (released that summer).

Years later, Nathan asked Notesong to help create a law firm that would emulate the automation of LegalZoom but pair it with actual attorneys to create custom, lawyer-drafted Wills at an affordable price point. Thankfully, Notesong said yes!

This friendship is our firm’s foundation – and with each passing year, both grow stronger.

Notesong Srisopark Thompson, Co-Founder | Attorney, Thoughtful Wills

Caring for so many ill and injured children led Nurse Notesong to law school – she wanted to advocate for children from multiple avenues beyond the hospital bedside. After practicing as a pediatric emergency/trauma nurse for over 18 years, Notesong took a break from paid work to be a full time mom to her three sweet and spunky kids – one of her most challenging and rewarding roles. Along the way, she and her husband caved, and their family also welcomed two fluffy sheepdogs who are constantly at her side as she helps translate estate planning into terms and concepts that are understandable – echoing her signature nursing style when she explained painful procedures (such as IV starts) to her tearful and terrified patients as they clung to their parents.

Having dealt with the yuck of creating her own estate plan, Notesong ensures the Thoughtful Will experience respects and addresses the anxieties of parents and non-parents alike, helping make the process as pleasant as possible. She infuses TLC into every aspect of our brand of approachable lawyering. Attention to detail is crucial in both nursing and law – Notesong doesn’t miss a beat.

Nathan Jay Kavlie, Co-Founder | Attorney, Thoughtful Wills

In high school, Nathan knew his science fair presentation was ready when he could explain the enzyme pathways to his grandmother. That ability to translate concepts was rewarded when he won awards at the international science fair, three years in a row.

Many years later after repeated nagging by his Uncle David, Nathan turned his attention to wills and discovered this whole new area of law that desperately needed translation for normal people. He took a year to learn and study wills & trusts law – rewriting the standard “legalese” will into something elegant and understandable. The Thoughtful Will is one of his proudest accomplishments to date (it’s a three-way tie with his marriage and rehabilitating two rescued terriers).

Summary

This week, Tim Ulbrich taps into a topic not yet explored on the YFP Podcast, estate planning. Estate planning attorneys and co-founders of Thoughtful wills, Nathan Kavlie and Notesong Thompson, discuss what an estate plan is, who needs one, the value of a living trust, and why estate planning is an important part of the financial plan.

Thoughtful Wills solves the issue of unpleasant experiences with attorneys, delaying the start of estate planning. Nathan and Notesong have worked to make death planning and lawyering approachable for everyone.

Nathan explains that estate planning is not just about your estate, but everything you own, even non-physical items, when you die. Estate planning is death planning, using our system of laws to make decisions, spreading goodness even after your death. Anyone who has children, people who have pets, married couples, anyone with some assets, and people who have family members that they care about should consider estate planning as a set of directives in the event of your death. Notesong explains that because circumstances in life change, revisiting the estate plan annually is a good idea.

Nathan and Notesong give a general overview of the estate planning documents, including the will, the revocable living trust, other relevant documents of estate planning, and how they work together to protect your estate after your death. Nathan details what probate is and how it affects a person’s assets when they die without a will, versus with an estate plan. Notesong provides an overview of the healthcare directive and the durable power of attorney, which authorize someone to make decisions on your behalf if you are incapacitated.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Notesong and Nathan, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Notesong Thompson: Thanks for having us, Tim.

Nathan Kavlie: Thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: So before we dive into all things estate planning, a topic that we surprisingly haven’t covered in detail on this show before, I’d love for you both to introduce yourselves and give us an overview of the work that you do with Thoughtful Wills. So Notesong, why don’t you kick us off? And then I’ll have Nathan follow.

Notesong Thompson: Sure. Well, it’s nice to meet everybody on the podcast. I am based in Madison, Wisconsin, and I am mom of three young kids — young, spunky kids. We have two sheepdogs who are very needy and wife of a really busy corporate attorney. But yeah, I’m a lawyer and I previously practiced as an emergency trauma nurse for 20 years, so I bring a lot of different perspectives to estate planning.

Tim Ulbrich: And we’re going to tap into some of your healthcare background a little bit later when we get into some of the healthcare directive pieces of the estate planning process. So very good. Nathan, go for it.

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah, so my name is Nathan Kavlie. I live in Minneapolis. Notesong and I, actually, we met in high school in Jamestown, North Dakota, back in the early ‘90s. But I am a lawyer. I was not a nurse, but I did work in a video store for several years, which, you know, oddly, I think was really I think formative, as much as probably anything else in how I sort of approach the world and my work, which is just sort of — we’re all customer service agents I think in the past. And if you aren’t, thinking that way I think you really are kind of missing the boat because I feel like especially in this new world where with masks and distancing, I think if you’re not spending time thinking about how to be friendly and approachable, you are not being friendly and approachable. I think you’re just missing a chance to sort of make people feel welcome and taken care of. But yeah, I live in Minneapolis with my husband, our two rescue dogs, yeah. Life is good.

Tim Ulbrich: Great comment, Nathan, about the importance of customer service and a priority. I actually — you made me think of the book by the founder of Zappos, “Delivering Happiness,” and great story about just that perspective and how important it is no matter what industry that one is in. So before we get into the weeds of estate planning — we’re going to try to make it as lively and fun to really highlight the importance of estate planning as a part of the broader financial plan — but before we get into that, tell us a little bit more about Thoughtful Wills. What is Thoughtful Wills? What’s the problem that you’re trying to solve? And what is the offering that you have, Nathan?

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah, so I think the problem we’re trying to solve is most lawyers are not very friendly or approachable. They kind of suck to work with. And people know that, right? There’s a reason why people — I’m sure you guys at YFP have heard of how often do you ever get clients that come in and they say, “Well, we’ve got all of our estate planning documents ready.”

Tim Ulbrich: Rarely.

Nathan Kavlie: Rarely, because they know that it’s like, you know, you have to take time off from work and go meet with this lawyer who’s probably going to make you feel like an idiot and charge a lot of money. And that’s the experience that I kept running into over and over again amongst my friends. And so you know, it was sort of an epiphany, like why does it have to be that way? And it doesn’t. We can just work online with people all over the country. We can — instead of sitting down and having this meeting, which is long and frankly then becomes expensive because we’re lawyers, right? We sell our time. We don’t do bookshelves, we don’t sell electric cars. We sell our time. And so you know, we can use technology efficiently to sort of save time, reduce expenses, and hopefully then if we’re being really sort of thoughtful about all of this process, we can sort of create kind of an experience for you that is sort of shockingly friendly and approachable. And that’s really what we’ve sort of done is sort of looked at every piece of our process to sort of ask ourselves, like is this understandable to normal people? Does it feel welcoming? Is somebody going to read this and feel supported? And if it doesn’t, then we work on it and frankly, we keep working on it over and over again just because when are you ever like perfect, right? So we’re sort of on a quest to really make lawyering approachable is I think really the crux of what we do.

Tim Ulbrich: So making lawyering approachable is really a big part of what you guys do. And folks can go to ThoughtfulWills.com/YFP and learn more. And we’ll reference that link again later in the show. I was telling my wife about this interview last night, and the way I was describing it, based on our experiences with a young family, going through the estate planning process, we really delayed ourselves in that process probably longer than we should because No. 1, it wasn’t exciting. It’s pretty boring, right? In my mind, it was going to be somewhat painful. And I felt like the industry wasn’t very transparent. As I look at what you guys have built, you really have addressed all three of those. And excited about what that means for not only pharmacists but also other professionals that want to do this part of the financial plan and do it well. Notesong, tell me about your background as an emergency — if I heard correctly, emergency care nurse. What about that experience led you to want to go back to law school and then specifically do the work that you’re doing now with Thoughtful Wills?

Notesong Thompson: Well, it’s funny you say that because Nathan and I reconnected after several years. And ironically, we were actually in law school at the same time. Started in 2001 and then we graduated in — did we graduate in 2004?

Nathan Kavlie: Uh huh.

Notesong Thompson: And I practiced law for a little bit in the juvenile defense world. I did some public defender work, guardian at litem, and pediatric nursing really drove me to the law because I saw so many things at the bedside that really, really troubled me. It just — it had me just wondering going home at night thinking, why is it like this? Why is this child with this abuser? Why is this informed consent issue an issue at all? So I will admit, nursing is my favorite love. And Nathan had to do a little bit of convincing to get me to practice law again, right, Nathan? And largely it was because of what Nathan talked about before is the traditional legal process is in many ways really miserable. And I practiced at a big law firm, and like I said, I did some more public defender work. But ugh. It was just yucky. And I went through the — I went through the estate planning process at my husband’s fancy law firm, and I just want to be clear that there is a place for attorneys and fancy law firms and for big estate planning too. And I’ve got to tell you, the only thing I remember going through that process myself was how much it was filled with yuck. And it was so anxiety-provoking, emotionally challenging, and we were doing this with a friend who took care of us. But it just was yucky, all of it. And so when Nathan finally convinced me to join in, it was after he heard me on a show called “Moms Every Day,” and he recognized that moms make a lot of decisions and keep the ball rolling forward with things that keep getting back-burnered. And as a mom of three young kids, you know, I — and having worked in healthcare in the nursing, I was faced with life-and-death issues every day. And even with that, at the bedside during a code, working with pharmacists who are handing me syringes of epinephrine and just on the ready — I love pharmacists, by the way. Can I just say? They’re the calm in the storm. And no matter what chaos is going on, the pharmacists were there, they just showed up in their cape and quietly handed us the meds we needed. It was like a miracle. But you know, that’s the thing. It’s the best part that I’ve found about being an estate planning lawyer now with the nursing background is that I still get to give TLC to our clients. And I think they are a little bit shocked when I say, “We’re going to take really good care of you and your family.” So yeah, that’s where I’m tying in nursing into estate planning. And it’s been really wonderful.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And as I mentioned, estate planning isn’t a topic we’ve covered a lot in detail on this show before but certainly an important piece of life and one’s financial plan. And we’re not going to be able to get into all the nooks and crannies and aspects of estate planning, but I do think we’ll be able to lay a good foundation and hopefully get folks somewhat excited about learning more about this topic and some next steps that they can take in their own journey. So Nathan, as I was doing research on Thoughtful Wills and your background, one of your claims to fame that’s listed on the website is having a lifelong obsession with making the complex understandable. And so I want to tap into that a little bit here as we just start the conversation of what exactly is estate plan? What do we mean by an estate plan? Who might need one? Why is it important? And what are some of the various documents at a high level that make up the estate plan?

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah. Let’s emulate — I think let’s start with just the word, right? So we’re talking about estate plan, and estate — so this is the weird part. Estate planning is not just about your estate. Estate really just means like all of your stuff when you die. So when you die, all of your cars, your dirty laundry, your CDs, your art, it’s all — everything you own. And not just physical possessions but if you sort of owned patents or if you wrote some music, all of those pieces of property are your estate. And so we’re planning for that. But the problem is it’s like sanitation engineers, right? You know, like garbage truck people? And it’s like, they’re like, “Now we’re going to be sanitation engineers.” Really, what we do is death planning. But nobody likes to say that. And so they’re like, “Well, let’s call it estate planning.” But the thing is that it’s bigger and more important than just your stuff. Right? Because that’s the thing, it’s like, how many people as they’re lying in the hospital bed dying are thinking about like, ‘Wow, I wonder who’s going to get my couch?’ Right? ‘I wonder who’s going to take care of my silverware collection?’ No one cares about that. You care about your family. And your family is not part of your estate because you don’t own your children, right, as much as people might want to. So we’re planning for death. The problem — and this is why people don’t think about it and I think probably at some level why you haven’t done this as a podcast is because it’s morbid. We’re talking about when you die or we’re talking about when you’re in a coma and can’t communicate. Like these are not fun topics. But they’re important topics because you care about the people in your life. And this is the law’s mechanism for how to do that. Our system of laws, it’s kind of amazing. And I feel like — and that’s the thing I try to sort of impress upon people. It’s like, these documents are frankly like superhero documents because they allow you after you’re dead — I mean, you’re gone. But you are still making effect — you’re having effects in the world. You are actually still spreading goodness and care in the world because of these documents that you’ve created. And that’s kind of amazing I think. And you know, our legal system wouldn’t necessarily have to operate that way. There’s no reason why we would sort of say like, Jim died, and he left this fancy house. And we’re going to let Jim decide who gets the house, right? We could say, “Everybody gets a piece of the house,” right? We’ll sell it and put it into the tax coffers. Or Jim’s oldest son would get it. Right? But no, we give people a lot of control to affect these changes if they choose to. And that’s the thing, that’s what estate planning is. It’s you are making affirmative choices to sort of change the world in the ways that you can by using these documents. So the bad news is we’re talking about death, but the good news is we’re talking about this amazing set of documents that can really change the world for the better for the people that you love and your pets because I don’t have kids so I’m always thinking about my pets. So that’s what we’re talking about. We’re talking about death. And I think just put it out there. You know, we don’t introduce ourselves as death lawyers, but that is what we do. And it’s really important. And that’s the thing, it’s like why should people do this? Well, you know, I guess the thing is like you have people in your life that you love. Do you have young children that you care about? Do you? Right? If you have young children that you care about, probably you care about who would raise them if you and your partner were in an automobile accident or something and you both died unexpectedly, right? And I get why people don’t want to think about it. I mean, I think about one of — my oldest dog is almost 18, and the thought of her passing kind of makes me want to curl up in a ball. So I get why parents, it’s like, it’s a huge hurdle to actually say like, let’s affirmatively think through all of those gory scenarios. But the fact is, it’s like, if you want to really take care of your kids, you have to do this. Right? That’s just point blank. If you care about your kids, you should do this. So who should do this? Who should do an estate plan? People with kids, people with pets they care about, people who care about their family. You know, the thing is is that our system of laws also does have a set of default plans. Every state has a system of default plans. So if you don’t do your will, it’s not like all of your property just goes to the state. There’s sort of a mechanism in place for who should get things. And you know, for a lot of people, that system works great. If you both die in a car crash, it’s not like your children are just wandering the streets, begging for money. There is a system in place to sort of decide who should care for your children, right? So I mean, there are these default plans in place. So just to be clear, the “if you don’t do this,” it’s not catastrophic. But yet if you don’t decide who should take care of your kids, most often all of your relatives fight about it in the courts. You know? I don’t know. But there are default plans. The default plans are not the end of the world, but they are not your choices. And there’s chaos and trouble involved with it because there are lawyers and there are custody hearings and it’s all kinds of yuck. And the way that you opt out of the default plan is by creating these estate planning documents.

Tim Ulbrich: And I appreciate, Nathan, what you said about — and I’ve never heard this perspective before, and I like it a lot, which is that we have a system, which has given folks a lot of opportunity to make decisions that might otherwise be made for them. And so I think if we take that perspective and apply it to the estate plan, it’s not as morbid — still a morbid topic — but you know, now we’re in that conversation of, OK, I’ve got some decisions to make. I’ve got some autonomy. I’ve got some choice. And you know, you’re touching on that concept of probate, essentially that process where if folks don’t make these decisions, yeah, there is a net that’s in place but it might not be the desired state that one has, whether it be related to those that are loved ones and their family or even resources that they have. One follow-up question I have here, Nathan, because I think we probably have many folks listening that maybe this is very obvious that they need these documents or have to update them, maybe there’s young children or just children altogether involved, maybe there’s substantial or growing assets, and I think that tends to be fairly obvious. But often, I’ll get the question from folks that maybe someone who’s more of a recent graduate, perhaps doesn’t have a partner or significant other, there’s no kids involved. So is there a point when it’s a clear like, someone should have an estate plan in process? Or is there a period in time where some folks it might be not now, but we need to look at this in the future?

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah, I mean, if you’re single and don’t have any kids and you get along with your family, you’re probably good to go. I can’t be certain, right? I mean, to be absolutely certain, I’d need to do an analysis of your actual circumstances, but if you’re single and get along with your family, you’re probably fine. If you’re single and you don’t get along with your family, you should definitely create an estate plan. One of my best friends from law school is totally estranged from his mom and his sister, and it’s like, well, you need to do an estate plan then because otherwise they’ll get all of the stuff. And that’s not what he wants to have happen. So when you have children, you know, when you’re pregnant or when you’re thinking about kids — and actually, the thing is when you’re thinking about kids is when you should do this ideally. But anytime in that process is great. We get a lot of clients that sort of say like, our due date is x months away, should we do this now? Or should we wait until the baby is born? And the answer always is, do it now. Because when the baby gets here, you will not have any time. You won’t even have time to sleep. So do it now. Do it when you’re thinking about having kids. We can write the documents to basically sort of already account — a lot of what we do as estate planning is we sort of create documents that anticipate many different futures. Because we don’t know what the future will hold. But we know there are some things that might happen. You might have children. You might not have children. And so we can sort of draft the documents as an either-or situation. So when you’ve got kids, when you get married is a good time as well. Yeah. And if you have some assets, that’s always good. I mean, it’s one of those things, I think people think of it sort of like senior photos, right, where it’s like, it’s going to be expensive and you just do it once. And I think it’s a real disservice. I think it’s driven, of course, by awful lawyers that are really expensive and really unpleasant. But I think it’s sort of weird that we think that like you should only do this once because you will know exactly what your life is going to be like. And circumstances change.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that’s true, right, with the rest of the financial plan. You know, we always say when you’re looking at investing or retirement or insurance or whatever it may be, it’s an evolution. It’s a journey, right? And that was, Notesong, a question I have for you before we come back and talk with Nathan about the living trust and then some of the other documents. This concept of OK, it’s a lot of work to get it done but is it something I should be looking at annually or every five years or as life events change? And I’m looking at the site where you’ve got a two-step process, which is evaluating the plan and then wanting to avoid probate and you know, a couple different options where one is you’re creating your plan in that Phases 1 and 2 where you’re then updating that or having some ongoing support, so talk to us a little bit more about what you typically do or recommend with folks in terms of OK, yes, we do this upfront work, but then how often we should be evaluating this.

Notesong Thompson: Sure, absolutely. That’s actually a very common question that we get all the time. We’ve reorganized the way to think about this because the whole process is yucky and it’s overwhelming. So Nathan and I really strive to break it down into nuts and bolts. And so on the ThoughtfulWills.com/YFP page, we’ve created two boxes that talk about Phase 1 and Phase 2. Phase 1 is essentially creating your plan. This is where all of the drafting happens and we can customize it as much as our clients want. And then we also ensure that the document is signed correctly and questions can be asked without, you know, worry of the clock ticking because we also want to try to avoid that because that’s always a fear is how much am I going to get charged for this email exchange? Like we try to avoid that. And then Phase 2 is really equally important because if you get a revocable living trust, it’s important that you actually fund that trust. And there are certain mechanisms that have to — that are in place that need to happen in order to put stuff into that trust. And so that is all under the umbrella of Phase 2. And so as far as like reviewing your estate plan, for example, my husband and I drafted our estate plan — gosh, 14 years ago. And we haven’t had a lot of major life changes. A lot of our — we’re still close to the people we’ve named as legal guardians and backups, my sisters and my sister’s mom, and so luckily, if nobody’s developed a gambling habit where we need to change up who’s going to be the trustee or durable power of attorney. That being said, it’s always — we think it’s always a good idea to review your plan every year, just to make sure your wishes are still reflected. And then also, the revocable living trust, it takes a little bit more work, a little bit more follow-up with that every year. But making sure that you fund your trust, make sure that you are updating your non-probate assets too — and I’ll let Nathan go into that later — but you want to make sure that all of your beneficiaries are up-to-date. So it really drives me crazy when all these online will-making services have really now come onto the scene in light of the pandemic, and everybody facing life-and-death issues, they talk about like all these unlimited amendments and things like that. But what they are not talking about is all of the legal requirements that are required in order to make sure that they’re valid, they’re actually valid. So every time you change your plan or you do a formal amendment, if it’s required, you also have to make sure that it’s re-executed, meaning signed and notarized where necessary. And that’s all based on your state. Each state has really super specific nuances and that’s where we rely on our local counsel attorneys in each state to help us ensure that we’re following their state’s laws exactly to a T.

Tim Ulbrich: And Nathan, Notesong mentioned the revocable living trust, the importance that document can play and I heard you guys talk about this on another podcast as really a magical and powerful document that when utilized and funded correctly can sidestep the high cost and hassle of probate and how important that is for professionals, especially professionals who have a higher income potential. So talk to us more about what is the living trust and the importance and the value that that plays.

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah. So I want to sort of back up before I get to that if that’s OK.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Nathan Kavlie: So I think we should first talk about the will, which is really sort of the foundational document to estate planning. I think most people know what a will is. It’s in TV, right? They all gather when somebody dies and reads the will and then people are all pissed off. But the will is the key, right? The will is sort of the foundational document where everybody sort of — where you create essentially your last testimony about what you want to have happen. And so that sort of superhero document that I talk about — I mean, the set of superhero documents. The will is the first one that people do. In like the 1960s, lawyers starting using what are called revocable living trusts. It was sort of a newer concept back then, but now it’s very subtle but it sort of was a little bit kind of cutting-edge back then, but now it is not cutting-edge because, you know, frankly, who wants to have — when you’re talking about your babies and protecting their assets, people don’t want to be experimental in the law. Right? You want settled law.

Tim Ulbrich: Not the place to be cutting-edge.

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah, exactly. So it was cutting-edge in the 1960s. It is not cutting-edge in the 2020s. Basically, so when you create a will or if you don’t have a will, basically, everything goes through probate. And I think it’s first important to say, what is probate? Because I think everybody sort of hears — if you listen to enough or really any sort of financial wellness sort of podcasts, everybody knows that probate is awful, but I don’t know that people necessarily know what probate is. And probate is our legal system’s sort of mechanism to wind up the affairs of people after they die. So it’s important to understand it’s a judicial process. And that’s why it’s expensive and a hassle because you have lawyers involved and you have a judge involved and then they have to send notice to the interested parties and there are hearings and it takes a long time. We probably all know somebody who is like, “Yeah, my grandfather’s estate took 15 years to probate.” That’s what it is. It’s — but it’s an important process because, you know, since we give the dead a lot of control over their assets, we need to make sure that we know what they really wanted. And if they didn’t make a will, then we need to make sure that the process, the sort of default plans, are followed correctly. And so that’s what probate does. So it’s an important thing, but it’s an expensive hassle. And especially — just somebody has to deal with it, right? You don’t just get to turn it over to the lawyers. Like somebody has to manage the process. And so there are ways that you can avoid probate. One of them is called non-probate assets. And I think people are becoming more and more familiar with these. These are things like life insurance and retirement accounts. Life insurance and retirement accounts, when you open them, you choose a beneficiary. So you say, you know, “When I die, this asset will go to my spouse or to my kids,” or something. And because the asset has a built-in beneficiary mechanism, it doesn’t go through the probate process because our system of laws honors life insurance’s own mechanism.

Tim Ulbrich: Makes sense.

Nathan Kavlie: Assets that are inside of a trust are non-probate. It’s like a $10 legal sentence, but it doesn’t really make sense without context. But the idea here is like your goal — because your house is not a non-probate asset. Your house is a probatable asset. So are your cars. Your cars are a probatable asset. So are your rights to music you wrote and your clothes and all of those things — some bank accounts — all of those things go through probate automatically. But if you move them into a trust, they can avoid probate. And so then the grand idea is well, let’s create a trust that will house these assets and then they can skip probate. Caveat: If you live in Connecticut, you don’t get to skip probate entirely. But this still is a very — it minimizes the hassle and the cost. So just a little caveat there. So the goal here, you create your own trust. Trusts are about as old as wills. They sort of hearken back to like the crusades in England. When the lord was taking up the holy cause and going out to the Middle East, you know, what happens to their assets? And so that’s where trusts came about. They were like, well, you can hold my assets, but you hold them for my benefit. You don’t own these lands. You’re just going to hold them for me because I’m going to be gone for like 12 years or something. So trusts — and trusts are used in many different contexts, not just in estate planning because like some charities are structured as trusts. But estate planning uses a lot of trusts. We can set up trusts for your children to protect their inheritance. We also use these living trusts. So it’s lots of different trusts, but this is the revocable living trust that we’re talking about here. And what it ends up doing is it becomes sort of a companion piece to a will so that together your will and your trust take care of all of your stuff together. But the will ends up becoming a much less important piece of this process. The will ends up acting like a backstop so that if you forget to move any of your assets into the trust, the will says, “Throw all these assets into your trust.” So if you forget to — or you know, if you sign all of your documents and you have like a Beetlejuice car accident on your way home and everybody dies, right, it’s like you won’t have had time to move your assets into the trust. So the will acts as a backstop. The will still is important because the will is still going to contain who should take care of your children, who should be the legal guardians, who should be the guardians of your pets. So the will is still an important document, but when we talk about like where your money should go, setting up trusts for your kids, or if you have somebody who has special needs, all of that goes into the revocable living trust. And we’ve described it as sort of a magic law box. Right? It’s like you create this account that you put your assets into, but it really only works if you put your assets in. Otherwise it’s just sort of really expensive paper. And so that’s when we talk about like Phase 1 versus Phase 2, Phase 1 is when we talk through how many kids do you have? Who should take care of your kids? Where should your stuff go? When we’re talking about Phase 1 and creating your plan, I don’t actually care about any of your assets, which is weird because a lot of people come and they’re like, “Well, I want to tell you all about my assets.” And it’s like, I don’t — it’s sort of jarring for them, their, essentially their death lawyer to be like, “We don’t actually care about your assets right now.” Right? And the reason I don’t care about them at this stage is because I don’t know what you’re going to own when you die.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Nathan Kavlie: No one does, right? So right now, we’re creating a plan that really is just sort of broad strokes. And so we talk more in percentages, right? Like half goes to my spouse and half is divided amongst my kids.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Nathan Kavlie: And whatever you own, you know, that’s the key because we just don’t know, right? So yeah, during Phase 1, I don’t care about your assets at all. At all. That’s where Phase 2 comes in because once we create your plan and we talk about who should take care of your kids and who should get your stuff, then it’s time to actually talk through your assets. Do you have some retirement accounts? Do you have an LLC? You know, maybe you have an investment property as well as your primary residence. Maybe you have a cabin in a different state. Maybe you have some expensive cars. All of those assets, then we start talking about the actual assets because we need to move them inside of your magic law box.

Tim Ulbrich: I mean this honestly, Nathan, I think that is the best explanation I’ve heard of the will and the revocable living trust in about a five or so minute period. So thank you. You’ve lived up to —

Nathan Kavlie: Well thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: — the obsession of making the complex understandable. It was really, really good, and I hope folks will hit rewind and listen to that as well because I think it can feel overwhelming, and that was very digestible. So thank you for that.

Nathan Kavlie: Thank you. Well, I appreciate it.

Tim Ulbrich: Notesong, pressure’s on now. So we talked about the will and the living trust. But that’s not it. We can’t stop there. There are other estate planning documents that we need to be thinking about. So talk us through some of those other documents and what they mean and why they’re important.

Notesong Thompson: Yes. Well, I mean, it’s the world we’re living in right now. Tim, you and I were talking about this before, but everybody is facing life and death right now with the pandemic in our face and its ever-evolving whatever it is. And so the phrase “accidents and illness happen without warning; there are no guarantees in life,” it just has so much more meaning today. And the healthcare directive and durable power of attorney are equally two magical estate planning documents that operate while you’re still alive. And the magic about them is that they both authorize somebody to act on your behalf if you’re not able to, if you’re incapacitated, if you’re in a coma. And we used to previously refer to these initially as coma documents because we tried to talk to people about them as incapacity documents and nobody got it. And they’d be like, ‘Oh, I’m fine. I’m young. I run every day. I do this. I’m so healthy. I’ll come back to you after when I’m older.’ And you know, we never want to pressure people, but at the same time, in that kind of blunt, very candid way, we just say, “OK. Quick question, do you drive a car?” You know? And it is, these are miserable topics. But we have to also consider that these things happen without warning. So both documents authorize someone to act on your behalf if you’re not able to. They authorize someone to act as a power of attorney. And so with the durable power of attorney document, they act as your durable power of attorney as it relates to finances and property. In your healthcare directive, you’re also a power of attorney, but it’s all related to your healthcare. They can make decisions for you. And the healthcare directive actually has two parts to it. The first part is power of attorney for healthcare. The second part is what a lot of people know as the living will. And that’s where you can get really specific as it relates to whether or not you want a feeding tube or assisted breathing, CPR, if you want altered CPR. I really have taken on the healthcare directive as my baby because I was my dad’s backup backup backup healthcare agent when he took his last breath. And as awful as it was, the saving grace there was that — you know, and he was a physician and he knew the importance of identifying exactly what he didn’t want — as awful as it was to be at the bedside, I was able to also give the poor resident who had to show up at 3:30 in the morning with a crying daughter at the bedside, I was able to tell her, “No compressions, just morphine, oxygen.” You know? And honestly, I think one of the greatest gifts that you can give your loved ones is that healthcare directive because otherwise, as Nathan mentioned before, estate planning is just rife with chaos and emotion. And in that moment, you don’t want somebody fighting over what your loved one wanted at the end of their life. So you can get really, really specific about that and also like organ donation as well. And so I think it’s a really powerful document that way. The durable power of attorney, you know, equally too. It seems like a no-brainer to have this in place, but the thing is you mentioned Zappos and wow, I mean, I know that — is it Tony Hsieh?

Tim Ulbrich: Tony Hsieh, yep.

Notesong Thompson: I’m not sure if I’m pronouncing — Tony Hsieh. I mean, the last I read, sadly, tragically, is that he died without an estate plan and that his dad and brother are in court, fighting to be able to take control of his finances, which are in the billions. And so not only is that a hassle, but they have to go through so many court proceedings, it’s expensive, and they’re trying to grieve the loss of their son and brother. So having this simple durable power of attorney in place lets your person of choosing and their backup, and you’re going to choose to have them as co-agents in case you want to have like a checks and balances. That could be a whole show in and of itself is choosing a durable power of attorney. That is equally important because you want to make sure that you’re choosing somebody who’s going to manage your finances while you’re not able to — or equally like if you’re out of the country and you want to move on a property that’s come available and you’ve been looking at it for 20 years, that person can also step in and act on your behalf in that capacity too. And that’s the durable part of it.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And we’ve scratched the surface on these documents but really important points. We’ve talked about the will, we’ve talked about the revocable living trust briefly, the healthcare directive, durable power of attorney, and as I mentioned at the beginning, the goal is not that folks hear this and say, “OK, I’ve got the textbook on estate planning,” but rather hopefully is stimulating some interest and a conversation among folks about where am I at in this process? What do I need? What do I not have? And what steps do I need to take? And I hope folks will check out ThoughtfulWills.com/YFP, where they can learn more about the work that you guys are doing as well as the services that you offer. I also suspect that we might have some folks listening that are saying, “You know what, I’ve done this or I’m going to do this, but perhaps Mom or Dad or Mom and Dad, it isn’t something they have done. And how do I initiate that conversation?” And it reminds me back to Episode 108 where I talked with Cameron Huddleston about how to effectively talk with Mom and Dad about their finances and this obviously being one of those very important conversations. So Nathan and Notesong, thank you so much for your time, for your expertise, for the collaboration. And looking forward to having you back on in the future so we can dig deeper on this topic.

Nathan Kavlie: Thanks. This was fun.

Notesong Thompson: Thank you, Tim.

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YFP 219: How to Negotiate Your Salary and Benefits as a Pharmacist

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How to Negotiate Your Salary and Benefits as a Pharmacist

Alex Barker talks about why pharmacists should negotiate their salary and benefits, benefits of negotiation, and two practical negotiation tips.

About Today’s Guest

Alex Barker helps pharmacists create fulfilling careers and lives. For a time, he was a burned-out clinical pharmacy specialist. Now, he is the Founder and Head Coach at TheHappyPharmD.com where, alongside his team, he creates classes to help over 750 pharmacists find and create new career paths. The Happy PharmD’s goal is to help 500 pharmacists transition into new jobs by January 1st, 2022.

He recently published the book Indispensable: The Prescription for a Fulfilling Pharmacy Career. When he’s not working with pharmacists, he spends time with his wife, Megan, and two lovely girls, Izzie and Addie.

Summary

Alex Barker, the Founder of The Happy PharmD, is back on the show discussing salary and benefits negotiation. He talks about why pharmacists should negotiate their salary and benefits, the benefits of negotiation, and two specific tips that you can use when having those difficult conversations with your supervisor. Alex also shares some insight from his e-book, “A Pharmacist’s Guide to Salary and Benefit Negotiation.”

Through the discussion, Alex breaks down the four benefits of negotiating. Your salary determines your future. Your salary can control, to some extent, when you retire. Your benefits depend on negotiation. Lastly, your salary now affects salary negotiations at future jobs.

Alex walks through some of the eight steps for negotiating salary and benefits listed in the guide. Pharmacists should do their research and document it. Research salary and benefits internally, externally, regionally, and for specific skills. Alex also suggests that pharmacists discuss compensation after the offer is made, and once you receive the offer, you do not have to act right away. Alex shares a typical response for negotiating a higher salary. In his example, the candidate expresses thanks to the hiring manager for the offer then takes some time to reflect. With some time to evaluate, you will be better able to discuss salary and benefits that you feel you are worth, based on your experience and the value that you add to the company.

In closing, Tim Ulbrich shares two real-life examples from the YFP Facebook Group, and Alex provides his advice and guidance for each.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Alex, welcome back to the show.

Alex Barker: Tim, it’s always a joy being with you, buddy. Thanks for having me again.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Glad to have you back as this time, we’re going to dig into salary, negotiation, as well as other things to negotiate beyond salary. But this is a good segue from our last conversation on Episode 205, not that long ago, where we talked about the pharmacy job market and considering the current state of the market, which we’ve talked about before, Alex, the Bureau of Labor Statistics projecting a decrease of about 10,000 pharmacist positions between 2019-2029. Some folks may hear that data point, may have listened to our previous conversation and be thinking, negotiation? What negotiation? Is that even possible? So let’s start there, Alex. Why should someone listening, you know, resist the urge to throw their hands up and say, ‘Not worth trying,’ right, considering the supply and demand changes that we’ve been seeing over the last several years. Is this even a relevant topic?

Alex Barker: I think it is. We put a post the other — a few months ago now on LinkedIn asking, ‘Do you feel comfortable negotiating your role, salary, or benefits?’ And obviously it was just geared at pharmacists. Vast majority of people said, ‘Absolutely not. No way.’ And I don’t think I blame them. You know, I’m actually working on as of this recording, we’re working on our Quarter 2 job market report. And things have kind of taken a downward turn, and I think it’s because of the COVID pandemic kind of wrapping up the hiring sequence as I think we all were predicting. And I think the tone of the market, particularly with newer grads and students is, ‘I’ll just take anything. Please just give me anything.’ And you know, you’ve been at a couple of universities, you’ve taught at different places. I don’t believe salary negotiation is taught.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s correct.

Alex Barker: Yeah. And there’s also this mindset of a residency is a major career pathway. And that role is non-negotiable in most cases. Most people I think enter the market now with this expectation of the market’s tough, so I’m just going to take whatever I can get. And whatever it is, I’m going to be happy because I’ll be able to pay off my loans, I’ll not be indebted, I don’t have to claim bankruptcy, you know, whatever the worst possible case scenario people go through in their minds. Why is negotiating important? It’s because you have value. And the pharmacy market is — yes, it’s in flux. But you have a doctorate or the equivalent of a doctorate for those BS pharms listening. And you are going to provide a lot of value to a company when you are offered a job. And you should be able to negotiate for the things that you want. And recognize as well that this is a long-term game. This is not, ‘I need to demand for the things that I want.’ Having this discussion in the beginning when you’re offered a position is laying the seeds for the things that you want for your career in the future.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. That’s right. Alex, I think that’s spot-on, right? You’re laying the seeds for what lies ahead, you’re initiating some of this conversation, the expectations. And we’re going to talk about other reasons and benefits to negotiation. Alex, I remember — I’m going to date myself a little bit here but 2008, graduated from pharmacy school, took a residency position, which as you mentioned, was non-negotiable, for a whopping $31,000. And thankfully, salaries have come up a little bit since then in residency, although not a whole lot. And then took that first position for an even $100,000. And it’s interesting, you know, here, we’re talking about 2021. You mentioned the Q2 report coming out here soon, which is showing that continued trend. Well, this was a different market in 2009. And I did have leverage to negotiate. But I didn’t know that. I wasn’t comfortable with that. I didn’t have the school, I didn’t have the skills, I didn’t have the tools, I didn’t have the mentorship, right? And I was excited. It was the first offer. The answer is yes. But as we’ll talk about here in a moment, remember, this is the starting point. And this is so important. It’s not just about the dollars. It could be benefits, it could be some of the confidence, the self-worth, the positioning, the value that you’re bringing to the organization. So some of these I think are very tangible monetary benefits and some of them may not be tangible monetary but very important, in some cases more important. Alex, you mentioned the LinkedIn post, right, and the answer was, ‘No, like I’m not comfortable.’ And I think this topic is one that folks either say, ‘You know what, I’m not comfortable.’ Maybe it makes folks a little bit uneasy. Maybe they squirm when they think about that conversation with their supervisor. It could be awkward, it could be overwhelming. Why is that the case? Is this unique to pharmacy? Or is this just something overall? Like we’re not comfortable, fear of rejection, lack of self-confidence, like what’s the why behind that?

Alex Barker: All of the above, I think. In pharmacy in particular, if you were to do an analysis of our personality as a profession, we would be the people that like avoiding conflict. We would like to be the people who everyone’s on the same team, we’re all working together towards the same goal. And so conflict is not something we’re typically taught in our education, conflict resolution, conflict management. But by and large, I think in most western societies, honestly, our value is placed on a dollar amount. And getting told that you make a certain amount is a reflection of self-worth and to change that, to think about negotiating for that self-worth when you may not feel like you are worth that, is a problem. So if you don’t feel confident in your ability to do that, then you’re probably not going to take actions towards that end. In fact, there’s quite a bit of growing research on this concept called professional identity in pharmacy in that pharmacists have a weak professional identity, which essentially means that we don’t tie ourselves strongly to the identity of a pharmacist. This has all sorts of consequences for our profession. One of the main ones — don’t want to deviate too much on this — but is the fact that our role is changing. You know, pharmacy, we’re trying to change our perception of who we are and what we do. And unfortunately, this just creates confusion for us as pharmacists. What do we do? What is our value? Are we just dispensing automatons? Or are we prescribers? We don’t know. And because we don’t know, that creates a lack of confidence in what we do. And that lack of confidence translates into, again, what we kind of talked about earlier, we’ll just take whatever we can get. I can relate to your story, by the way. I did the same exact thing. I remember the phone call. I was working a clinic, they gave me the call, and they said, “We’d like to offer you the position.” “Oh! Well, OK. Great.”

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Alex Barker: Yeah, tell me more. “Well, it’s $115,000 a year.” And dead silence on my end. “Oh, yeah. Of course.” You know? I’ll take three times my salary. OK, what’s next?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Alex Barker: It’s so foolish, but if you’re not informed, if you’re not trained to kind of handle that situation, why wouldn’t you take that?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think, you know, one of the thoughts that comes to mind, Alex, as you were just talking about — of course we’re overgeneralizing — but when we talk about some of the personality of a pharmacist or folks that may not be comfortable negotiating, I would have put myself in that bucket, especially early in my career. I think we need to be careful that we’re not pursuing an outcome of avoiding conflict or avoiding an uncomfortable conversation because while that may feel OK in the moment that you don’t have to be in that uncomfortable conversation, if it leads to resentment down the road or you feel like you’re undervalued, that can have significant ramifications, right? We’re not just talking anymore about dollars and am I making a fair market value? But do I feel valued as a part of this organization and do I feel like I’m advocating for myself? I think that’s a part of negotiation that often gets overlooked for a variety of reasons of which we probably all individually struggle with for different reasons of which is a different discussion but I think is important that we really, honestly evaluate and reflect of why might we be avoiding this conversation? What’s behind that, right? Let’s peel back the layers of the onion a little bit to inquire further. Alex, so your guide, “A Pharmacist’s Guide to Salary and Benefit Negotiation,” and folks that are interested in receiving that guide, 29-page e-guide that you put together, great resource — we’re going to hit some of the high points here on this episode, certainly not go into the full details of that — folks can get a copy of that for free by sending an email to [email protected]. Again, that’s [email protected]. Let him know you listened to this episode, get a copy of that. One of the things you start out with, Alex, is four benefits of negotiating. I think some of these are obvious but some maybe not as obvious. And we’ve alluded to a couple of these. But talk to us about what are these benefits of negotiating, laying the groundwork for why we think this is important before we get into the strategy.

Alex Barker: Yeah. You’re going to love them because you’re Mr. Money Man. So your salary, it determines future raises. Right?

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Alex Barker: If you start off at $100,000 versus $110,000, every raise you get thereafter will be more if you are at $110,000. This is obvious. But over time —

Tim Ulbrich: Compound effects.

Alex Barker: Exactly.

Tim Ulbrich: Compound effect of that.

Alex Barker: Yeah. It’s huge. You know, I remember starting that job at $115,000. And I think the year before I quit, it rose to $127,000. Now I worked at a very bureaucratic, very rule-driven, union-driven organization. So this may not be as negotiable in terms of salary as other organizations. But whatever you start with often determines the future. So if you’re thinking about a career transition, if it’s your first job, you need to understand you have to negotiate — you should negotiate because it’s going to determine what you get paid in the future. Depending on whatever strategy you take, the next reason is that your salary often determines when you retire. You know, I know you’ve talked about different retirement strategies on your podcast a lot. I’m in your community on Facebook and I see a few people wanting to follow the FIRE movement. So this may not be relevant, depending on how I guess driven you are to retire early versus later. But obviously a higher salary, if you decide early on in your career to save the majority of that, can help you retire earlier if you choose to. And one of the things that I think most people look at — because when you think about I guess like the salary aspect of pharmacy, there’s a lot of hullabaloo about it. I polled 500 people on LinkedIn, and over 76% I think said that they think salaries are decreasing. Now the data is actually contrary to that. The data actually suggests there’s a very small increase, if not over time flattening, of our salary. But the rumors obviously are more popular than data. A lot of people focus on it, but benefits matter too. If you don’t negotiate for those benefits, you could be missing out on some really just life-changing and lifestyle things. One of the best things I ever did during my pharmacist career working as a clinician was getting the change to the four-day work week.

Tim Ulbrich: I remember you doing that.

Alex Barker: Yeah, back when you and I both were working day jobs.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I couldn’t believe you pulled that off, actually, because you know, within the organization — that’s challenging if there’s not precedent for it.

Alex Barker: Absolutely. Yeah, so just full disclosure, I used to work at the Veteran Affairs. I don’t represent them obviously now. Never did, really, before online. But I loved the three-day work week. And it just felt like even though the days were longer, yes, and I did miss out on quality time in the evening with my kids, that three-day weekend was just so perfect. It’s so wonderful. Negotiating for your benefits can just make a huge lifestyle difference. And I know for me personally, when I had that, it made me significantly happier about what I was doing at my day job. And then lastly, the main reason why you want to do this is that this job that you take, whatever it is, it will probably not be your last and final job. All trends right now point to people changing jobs more frequently than ever before.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Alex Barker: And whatever salary you end up taking at this next job likely will influence the next job salary that you take because you want to use that, whatever your previous salary was, as evidence for your value, the contributions you make at your company, and you can use that as fodder for your next salary negotiation.

Tim Ulbrich: And Alex, so good. So you talked about four different things there: your salary determines your future, your salary determines when you retire, your benefits can depend on it, and then it affects salary negotiations at future jobs. And you know, I’m not going to get out the nerdy investment calculator, but I’ve talked about on the show before just one really tangible example beyond what this means for the income that’s coming into your bank account after taxes and all that. You know, take a simple employer match on a retirement account, right? If you’re making $110,000 because you’ve gone through a negotiation or $120,000 instead of $100,000 or $105,000, whatever that difference would be, it may not seem large. But that additional match on that benefit, you know, is going to have a compound — significant compound effect over time. And that doesn’t even account for your point, which is a really good one, you know, if you’re going to be changing jobs, which likely you’re going to be doing many times throughout your career, often your current position is the jumping point for that next position. And you’ve got typically pretty good leverage there if that organization really wants you in that role. And I’ve got a really tangible example of this when I made the transition from Northeast Ohio Medical University to my faculty role to The Ohio State University College of Pharmacy and overseeing the Master’s program in health systems pharmacy administration. At that time, I really was enjoying my role at NEOMed. I loved what I was doing. Interesting opportunity came up at Ohio State, love that institution, the people that work there. The opportunity was there, but there wasn’t really that pressing need to make that move. And you know, that’s probably one of the better strategies of negotiation is if there’s a recruitment that’s happening and you don’t necessarily have that need, obviously you’ve got some leverage. But using current position and salary obviously becomes — for me, it was and it becomes for many people — that jumping point to that new role. So it’s not just the first offer that you take that has the implications. For those that are listening, maybe they started a position five, six, seven years ago and have seen marginal increases in their salary that probably haven’t kept up with inflation, if they’re thinking ahead to that next jump, like it’s not just at the job offer. You can also negotiate while you’re along the way. And you should be having those conversations, right?

Alex Barker: Absolutely. You know, just on a quick point there, one of the reasons why I feel like a lot of people can’t negotiate or feel like they can’t is something you said previously. When they offer you the job, they want you. It means that they don’t want other people. They’ve made decisions collectively as an organization to give you the job, not someone else. This may not be true for every organization. You know, there may be some devious nature to some offers, which I know there are those kind of practices. But in general, major organizations in particular, when they give you that offer, when they say, “We want to offer you the position doing this and it’s for this much,” that means this is an offer to you, and this is where a lot of your practice negotiation strategy will come into play where you’re able to wrestle with that, hopefully it’s an offer that you love so there’s not a lot of conflict. But if you’re negotiating and what you’re asking for is reasonable, they’re going to work with you because they’ve already made the decision to commit to you. I have not heard horror stories nor actually does any research indicate that negotiation for the offer more often than not ends in the person’s offer being terminated. What happens actually more often is that offers are made to pharmacists and for whatever reason, budgetary restraints most commonly happen where the job is let through. It is not because of negotiations.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I agree. And I’ve been on the other side of these conversations, Alex, in several instances. And even if, even if there’s not a huge gap in preference between candidate 1 and 2, what often happens is when that offer goes out, that organization starts to envision that person in that role and what they bring to the table, right? So they’re starting to affirm the strengths that person is bringing, the opportunities that they’re bringing, and they’re starting to see that person in that role. And there’s a risk to the organization — so if I’m offering you a position, Alex, I’m waiting for you to hear back and let’s say you try to negotiate. And if I’m the employer and I’m like, “No, no, no, we’re going to make an offer to the second person. Just we can’t budget-wise do it,” like unless that number is way out in left field, like there’s a risk I now lose both of my candidates as the employer end. So flip the script. I think this is sometimes where we’ve got a lot of self-confidence challenge and issues and obviously this is a very individualized, you know, assessment and hopefully where some good mentorship can provide value, what do you bring to the table, why are you unique for that position, how are you different from other candidates, but really great advice there. Alex, in the guide, I think it’s in Chapter 3, you start off by talking about mindset and the connection between mindset and negotiating. And you write that your strategy doesn’t just start at the negotiation table. It starts with your mindset right now. What do you mean by that?

Alex Barker: Well I think the quote that I put at the beginning of the chapter fits it perfectly. If you fail to plan, you are planning to fail. You know, a lot of people think the biggest struggle in the process of getting a new job is the application, the interview. And most people put the majority of their effort when looking for a new career in those things. And the idea of success, the idea of getting an offer and negotiations often doesn’t even come into play when making this consideration. And so in most cases from what we’ve learned from talking with thousands of pharmacists is they don’t even plan for this. There’s a lot of pessimism about our job market, there’s a lot of pretty negative analysis and posts about it, and so why would you plan for success? In their mind, I think. And if that’s the case, you know, whether you think you’re right or wrong, you’re probably right. I was thinking as you were talking about this guide, when I first made it, I did a ton of research. Not only did I help people increase their offers by thousands of dollars, but I spoke with negotiation experts. I interviewed them. I talked with hiring managers, executives, I talked to them about this issue, and I talked with them about what the best practices were, and I gathered up all this research and information. And I thought, this is really valuable, this guide. And I remember thinking, OK, well, I’m looking to see what other businesspeople are doing out there about negotiation courses, books. And I thought, I could sell this. I could legitimately sell it. And it did make a few sales but nothing near where what I had hoped. And I just learned that after talking with people and presenting this, people were like, why would I pay for this? I’m not going to be able to negotiate anything. So I was like, what? Like, there’s such a low level of mindset around this issue that people aren’t even believing that this is possible.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Alex Barker: So now we just, hey, we just give it away for free because we have multiple reports of people using this guide, following the steps, and getting thousands of dollars more from the initial offer, which of course compounds over time. But this is why I feel like mindset is so important, it’s why I’m hoping that people kind of see the stories that we’ve posted online to social media and say, “OK, other people are doing it. Maybe it’s possible for me.”

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I think you do a nice job, Alex, in the resource, which is really valuable and I hope people will take a look at it, where you give some tangible strategies, eight steps to negotiate your salary and benefits. And we’re not going to talk through all eight of those. I want to hit just a few of them that I think folks can walk away with some very specific ideas and perhaps skills that they can take to those conversations that they’re going to have with their supervisors. So let’s walk through a few of these. First, Alex, is document your salary and benefit research. Tell us more about this one.

Alex Barker: Absolutely. So if you don’t know what’s going on in the salary world in pharmacy, you’ve got to get up. We’ve got a guide on our website, it’s very thorough. I recommend you check it out. But you should be doing your research in really three main areas. Internal research, meaning looking at what your company is paying people, what published information they have. External research, seeing what other companies are paying. Specific skill research, so if you have something specific to your career, residency, certification. Those are easy examples. You should understand what value that trans — how that translates into into the market. The reason why you want to document these things is because when negotiating, you want hard evidence, proof of the value of what you’re going to do for that company. Because you can’t just say in the negotiation, “We want to give you” — let’s say the hiring manager says, “We want to hire you as a clinical pharmacy specialist managing this HIV clinic. And we want to pay you $115,000.” You could just say, “Absolutely. Yes. I’ll take anything. Just give me the job.” Or what you could do is do your research. So look in the city and state and look to see what is the average pharmacist pay for that kind of job? There are of course information on our website, TheHappyPharmD.com, but there’s plenty of other resources as well like GlassDoor, Indeed, Mercer Job Salary Report.

Tim Ulbrich: Some state associations do some of this too. Not all.

Alex Barker: Absolutely.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Alex Barker: Yeah. And with that, you’ll be able to tell easily like what is an average. What’s the median? What could you expect even before you are offered the position because it’s becoming less and less common now for job postings to say — particularly for professionals — what is the salary reach. You want to have that evidence so that when the offer comes, you’re able to gauge whether or not this is something that you would want. Also, if salary isn’t the thing for you, like let’s say $115,000 a year is an acceptable salary for what your life expectations are and let’s say that you know that on average, this position gets paid $120,000, well that’s $5,000 difference. You could negotiate for that. But you could also negotiate for other benefits. “Well, because I’m not getting what the average is, and the average is this, here’s what I would like to ask for in return.” This research is so critical because it can lay a solid foundation on what is true because the company cannot dispute these external resources.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Alex Barker: I mean, they can certainly say no. But they can’t dispute what evidence is collected.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, it’s not Alex’s made-up numbers, right? This is data. Yeah. I think too, Alex, the other thing I think about here is if I’m in a position let’s say I’m getting an offer for say $110,000 and I really think because of my research and because of x, y, and z, I really think that should be let’s say $118,000, right? And the answer is no. Now there’s some strategies for how you navigate that conversation and there’s very specific techniques that you talk about in the guide. “Never Split the Difference” is another great book that talks about some of those techniques where you’re really trying to get to that yes and it’s not just that initial no and how do you approach that. But let’s just say for the sake of this example the answer is no but you’re really interested in that position, you think it’s a good fit. I think one of the thoughts I have here is if I’m that candidate, my next follow-up is remember, we’re laying the foundation. You talked about that earlier. What can I do? Like what can I do over the next 6-12 months to get to $118,000, right? What are some of the goals that I can work towards? What are some of the opportunities? Because if I’m a hiring manager and I really like a candidate and they say, “What can I do to get to whatever that number is?” like that starts to really become the road map of the objectives for that individual and perhaps some even opportunities, depends on the organization of course, the company you work for, of what are some things that they might be able to do that either is or is not in their job description to be able to earn up to that income.

Alex Barker: Absolutely. Hopefully by that point, when the offer is given to you, you’ve asked the right questions in the interview to have a really good understanding of what the position is and where the company or the department, pharmacy department is going in particular. This is a great place for you to provide even more value during the negotiation process. One example that comes to mind was a client we worked with who was wanting to get into academia — no prior experience, no residency — and wanted to run a clinic, something that this person hadn’t done before. The offer came, and what was offered was a lot lower. And they based this on the idea that ‘Hey, you don’t have a residency, you’ve never done a position before.’ It was quite a pay cut for this person. So what this client did was brilliant. They knew that what this college was struggling with was getting new sites. This was a relatively newer school, and they were struggling with that aspect. And obviously, if you don’t have the number of rotations, you can’t get always accredited. It’s a huge problem. You can’t market your school as well, which is becoming increasingly important for colleges. So what this person was able to do was twofold. Because the offer came in, they were actually able to renegotiate their position to where they were doing more of the kind of work that this person enjoyed, which was doing more experiential education management and getting more involved in that department, talking with more people, getting more sites on board, with certain guarantees that they were able to negotiate for. And in turn, this meant less clinic time, which this person still loved. But she was a kind of pharmacist who enjoyed a large variety of tasks. So being able to negotiate in the moment, knowing the company’s priorities, being able to get more of what you want — and ultimately, she was able to negotiate a salary change as well — is a brilliant strategy. Don’t think that no means no.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Alex Barker: In this case. In this case alone.

Tim Ulbrich: Alex, that too is a good example of like understand your environment. You know, I believe negotiation can apply to everyone, but understand your environment and where you may have more flexibility and leverage. So that example, an experiential education individual, there is not seven of those at a college, right? There’s typically a director of experiential education. So if I’m the department chair, I’m the dean, and I working with that person, I have some more flexibility of which is true just in that environment overall. But through things like administrative stipends, through how we split time, through other things that I’m not as concerned with like I’ve got 10 people that are in the same role and I have to have them all within this range, right? Because obviously that’s something that an employer might be thinking about. So I think understanding your environment — and I would even point to that position, that’s a really hard position to both recruit and retain. It’s one of the hardest positions to retain in a college of pharmacy is an experiential director because of the challenges and the stress that can come with it. So an experiential director is listening out there, like you’ve got leverage, right? Understand the leverage that you have. So good stuff. Alex, I want to fast forward to the offer. And again, there’s lots more in the guide. You go through eight specific strategies, but one you talk about is the offer moment, right? So this is what we’ve been waiting for, the offer is on the table, we can react to something. Talk to us about some negotiation tips after receiving an offer that folks can consider employing in their own situation.

Alex Barker: Practice, practice, practice. Practice with your spouse if you’ve got one, practice with your parents, practice with a friend. Role play the event. This is by far the best advice I can give you. It isn’t hard because most people have had a job. Most people have gone through this experience. While probably the majority of your friends and even parents are not managers and have actually done this, you can put yourself in that situation and script your response. You do not need to accept right away would be my first encouragement. You don’t need to say absolutely yes, no, or even negotiate in this moment. For me, I’m a very emotional person and so having — making decision in an emotional state often leads to not the greatest results. Hence, both probably your and my first job offer. Right? “Oh yeah, I’ll take it 3x my salary! Of course! That’s a great thing!” That was a great moment, but making that decision in that moment may not reflect really where you want to take your career. So be willing to say, “Thank you for the offer. I’m so happy to be able to have the opportunity to work with you. But I want to think about this, I want to talk with my spouse, I want to review my research and make an informed decision.” Having another call is not unexpected for people because everything they share with you about the offer — and by the way, get more than just the salary. Make sure that you understand the benefits package, make sure you understand the demands, make sure that you understand what their goals are for you in this role.

Tim Ulbrich: What you’re saying yes to, understand that.

Alex Barker: Absolutely. I think everyone has had an experience where they took on a job and didn’t realize everything that they were going to be asked to do. In fact, every time I talk about the offer with people, I often kind of get that response of, what happens when the unexpected happens? Like they tell me that I’m managing this now and I’m doing this and I’m doing this when that wasn’t a part of the offer. Well, that’s a whole other discussion. And my final recommendation to you is even when the offer is better than what you expected, still hold back your yes and ask yourself, what do I really want? Take that time before and during the offer to really consider is this everything that I want? Or is there something more can I get? Heck, even if it’s just $500 for an education fund. Something as simple as that can just make that much better and it also can create a better relationship with the team that you’re working with.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think sometimes, Alex, you know, it’s monetary. Sometimes it’s things that are maybe not in the form of salary but could be professional development-related. It could be carved out time to work on certain initiatives or projects, for some folks it could be an administrative role that are pretty easy to create from the employer side. So you know, those are often, again, you’re setting up future opportunities and leverage and then there’s other areas you can get into like maybe they can’t — because of how that position is classified, maybe there’s limitations on salary for that position, but if you have something else like an administrative position, you’ve opened up like stipends and other things that can be different ways that they classify income. So there’s certainly some strategy here to be thinking about. But great wisdom in that recommendation of take some time to think about it, right? And express the gratitude of the offer. Express, you know, some of the interests that you have in the position. But I think that pause is incredibly important, not only to give yourself space to think about it but again, flip the script, right Alex? So if I’m hiring and I’ve got Alex applying and I’m like, ‘I’m really excited about what Alex can do for this organization,’ I’ve got the offer out there, I’m starting to envision Alex in that role. When Alex says, “Hey, Tim, really excited about the position, the company, the direction what you guys are going. I’m grateful for the offer. I really need 48 hours to think this through and really evaluate how this fits in with my goals and talk this over with my wife, think about it for our family, like now I want you more, right? Now I want you more because you’ve created that space and you’re opening up the door for me to expect a follow-up conversation. And I would encourage folks, like in that follow-up conversation, if there are things that you are genuinely excited about as well as maybe some reservations, concerns, or questions, articulating some of that, giving the space for them to talk, is going to even further open up that door for some of the negotiation. And you talk in the guide, Alex, about some strategies that folks can read up to learn more about the use of silence and mirroring and active listening and again, this is something that you can read and I think apply in practice certainly so that you’re ready for that situation. And Tim Baker and I also talked about this on Episode 166, about why negotiation is an important part of the financial plan. And we talked through some of those strategies as well. So again, folks, check out the guide. We just hit a couple of the high points. You can get a copy of that guide by sending an email to [email protected]. Again, “A Pharmacist’s Guide to Salary and Benefit Negotiation.” Alex, I want to wrap up our time with a couple of comments that we had from the Facebook group, in the YFP Facebook group. And I said, “Hey, I’m going to be recording with Alex, upcoming episode on salary negotiation, give me your thoughts.” And two really that stood out to me, one that I want to get your reaction on based on everything we just talked through, what are you hearing as why that might have been a successful negotiation and then the second one is someone who’s got some questions around some difficulties that they’re having with the negotiation process. So you up for that?

Alex Barker: Hopefully my responses are adequate. Let’s go for it.

Tim Ulbrich: Alright, here’s the first one. And this comes from someone that put in the YFP Facebook group says, “I”m a recent graduate who is hesitant to negotiate, but I’ve been with the same company for 5+ years and knew I owed it to myself to at least counter once I got the job offer to move to full-time staff pharmacist. I was able to get $250 more per hour on top of the initial offer and build a great relationship with my boss to help reach my future goals as a pharmacist. Biggest things I learned throughout this process: No. 1, it’s not offensive to ask for more. Know your worth. No. 2, the company already likes you, so don’t freak out about taking back that offer. You’re now trying to reach an agreement that works for both parties. And No. 3, my biggest selling point was that I would be saving the company time on training for the day-to-day things since I was a pharmacy tech and intern, so not having to reorient, re-onboard somebody in that role.” What are your thoughts to that, Alex?

Alex Barker: Super smart kid. I shouldn’t say kid. But just that simple having that belief that they’re worth that value and demonstrating that through evidence earned this person $5,000 more a year. You know, I don’t know how much prep this person did, and I’m sure it was stressful, as most people think negotiations are. But that little bit of effort earned him $5,000 more dollars that he would not have made had he not made the effort. I love the angle of him deepening that relationship with his manager.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Alex Barker: That’s the thing. As you were talking before this example, I was actually just thinking that this kind of feels like dating all over again or like the phase before dating where you’re like, ‘Ooh, does she like me?’ You know, and your hands touch for the first time. You’re like, oh my gosh, electric jolts go up yourself and you’re like, oh my gosh, this is so, so awesome. But you don’t know if they like you. There’s definitely a misconception of yeah, they like you. They want you. And if you’re able to demonstrate with evidence, with proof, and with a strong agreement commitment to what you’re going to do for them, then they’re more than willing to likely give you what your value is.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Alex Barker: And it would be great to teach that in pharmacy school. It would be great to say, “Here’s the value of what you bring. Here’s what — for example, one pharmacist, here’s what they’re able to produce economically for a business, hospital, community pharmacy, whatever,” so that you have an understanding of it isn’t like the company is just throwing money at you and not getting anything back, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Otherwise that wouldn’t make sense. The position wouldn’t be there.

Alex Barker: Right. And salaries wouldn’t be at where they’re at if a company wasn’t making money.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Alex Barker: So $5,000 in the grand scheme of things to the company is not a lot of money to keep someone happy and retained because the cost of retention is higher than probably what you think.

Tim Ulbrich: I was just going to say that, Alex. For anyone who’s listening and has worked with an organization for a period of time and know that you’re an awesome employee and ambassador of the organization, go do some research on the cost of retention and I think that will give you a lot of confidence and feeling comfortable of why and employer wants to keep a valued and key employee. It is significant, not only in the cost of time of retraining but what that means for the culture of the organization, the time that’s spent, all of those things. And it can be underestimated, as you mentioned. Alright, next one I have here is a little bit of a hey, help me out here, what should I do? So this comes, again, from the YFP Facebook group. It says, “I don’t negotiate for salary and benefits because my employer doesn’t really discuss compensation at all.”

Alex Barker: Yikes.

Tim Ulbrich: “There have been two times that I have asked for a raise because I had taken on more responsibilities, so someone else who had left, grew metsync, implement of vaccinations, other clinical services, started diabetes prevention program, etc., etc. Both times, the boss essentially said, ‘I’ll look into it.’” And goes on to share another example where boss was paying a company to do something that she had been working on and so asked, “Hey, what can I do to earn that money instead of us using that money to hire somebody externally?” That ended up of her getting some raise, not the full amount, and so the question here is how can one more effectively negotiate with someone who really doesn’t seem interested in wanting to have that conversation?

Alex Barker: Yuck. It sounds like this kind of manager is the person who sweeps problems under the rug and doesn’t want to handle conflict themselves. So that is definitely an uphill battle. I do — I sympathize with you. But here, I would say at the core of all of this, is actually a word that Tim, you used earlier: agreement. Employee is an at-will agreement between yourself and the company. You are not forced to work that job. You have the right, the choice, to make that decision. And agreements change over time. They have to because the market changes, demands change, and clearly, you — I’m assuming everything you’re saying here is true and obviously we only have one side of this story — but I’m assuming that you’ve been providing consistent value over time and you’ve had two attempts without success. So my old ID mentor used to tell me, “Two points don’t make a trend, but three do.” I think a third conversation is warranted. And I think you need to say with great certainty what your value is, what you’ve produced for the company, and what your expectations are moving forward, letting them know what you’re willing to decide if a decision isn’t made. You know, the whole ‘Let me think about it,’ or ‘Let me work on it,’ response kind of — it reminds me of my children asking me to play with them throughout the day as I work from home, you know? Like, “Dad, we want to play! Let’s play! Let’s play!” “Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’ll do it later. We’ll do it later.”

Tim Ulbrich: “We will. We will.” Yeah.

Alex Barker: And it pacifies them knowing that I’ll eventually get to it. And I do. At the end of the day, I do. I fulfill on my promise. I play with them. This person hasn’t fulfilled. And they’ve done that now twice. That’s evidence for you. Now, you need to be willing to come to a decision about what it is that you’re going to be doing should they not give you a raise. And this is hard because, you know, one of those decisions obviously is ‘I’m not going to work for you,’ or ‘I’m going to work less,’ or ‘I’m going to look for a new position.’ And you’re well within your rights to negotiate for that. There is nothing forcing you to continue working for this company. And you can point out very clearly that they have not fulfilled the request that you made previously for negotiating your salary. Hold yourself to that high standard and elevate them along with you. You know, this shouldn’t be a us v. them, right, kind of battle. It should be about hey, you’re on my side. And this is what’s happened. Here’s the value of what I think I’m worth. And how can we move forward? Before you start suggesting or demanding what your actions are, try to understand what the limitations are. Maybe they did look into it and they ran into a roadblock and they’re too afraid to tell you of what that roadblock is.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep. Yeah, and I think the lack of communication here probably — you know, we don’t know the full story — but probably can lead to resentment, just like it does in any relationship.

Alex Barker: Oh, sure.

Tim Ulbrich: Right? So I think, you know, even if the outcome isn’t desired, I think the conversation can be really valuable. This also feels — and Alex, I might be wrong — but as I look at this question again, this feels like maybe an independent environment when somebody talks about what they’ve done to grow programs, some MedSync, diabetes prevention, stepping in for another pharmacist. So back to my comment earlier about leverage, if I’m an independent owner and I have a key employee of which probably not only developed these programs but probably of which these programs depend upon to run and maybe the owner doesn’t even necessarily know how to continue them and they’ve had a good impact on the pharmacy for both patient care and bottom line, like understand the leverage, you know, that you have in this situation, not to abuse that but to understand what you have as you’re coming into the conversation to really show and communicate the value. Alex, great stuff, as always. Appreciate having you on the show again. I look forward to these episodes that we do every so often. And this one certainly didn’t disappoint for me. So thank you so much for taking the time. And again, to the listeners, make sure you get a free copy of “A Pharmacist’s Guide to Salary and Benefit Negotiation.” And you can get that by sending an email to [email protected]. Alex, thanks again.

Alex Barker: Thanks for having me.

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YFP 215: Know Yourself, Know Your Money with New York Times Bestseller Rachel Cruze

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Know Yourself, Know Your Money with New York Times Bestseller Rachel Cruze

Rachel Cruze discusses her new book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money.

About Today’s Guest

Rachel Cruze is a two-time #1 national best-selling author, financial expert, and host of The Rachel Cruze Show. Since 2010, Rachel has served at Ramsey Solutions, where she teaches people to avoid debt, save money, budget, and how to win with money at any stage in life. She’s authored three best-selling books, including her latest, Know Yourself, Know Your Money: Discover WHY You Handle Money the Way You Do and WHAT to Do About It. Follow Rachel on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube or online at rachelcruze.com.

Summary

National best-selling author and financial expert, Rachel Cruze, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss her newest book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money: Discover WHY You Handle Money the Way You Do and WHAT to Do About It. Tim and Rachel delve into various portions of the book, highlighting specific lessons and concepts relatable to pharmacists, parents, and anyone interested in learning more about themselves and their relationship to their finances.

Rachel walks listeners through “Discovering Your Personal Money Mindset,” including how we form our ideas about money and how we learn to handle money as we do through “Your Childhood Money Classroom.” Rachel goes through the four money classrooms. She reminds us that regardless of the quadrant that you grew up in, you can choose your quadrant from this point forward. Rachel outlines seven money tendencies, how they not only impact your financial picture, and how these tendencies affect interpersonal relationships with significant others. Tim and Rachel share an earnest discussion about money fears, detailed in Chapters 5 and 6 of the book. They close with an eye-opening discussion on part 2 of the book, focusing on the “Power of Contentment.” Rachel shares how contentment changes your motivation for spending. She explains a practical exercise for determining what brings you joy and demonstrates how learning where and how you find happiness allows you to focus your spending on what is truly important to you.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Rachel, welcome to the show.

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s really an honor to have you on, and I’m excited to talk about your latest book, “Know Yourself, Know Your Money.” And for those listening in the YFP community that are already familiar with the Ramsey baby steps, I think this book does an excellent job covering much of the mindset, the behaviors, the beliefs that are the foundation to ensuring your goals and dreams become a reality. So Rachel, in Part 1 of the book, which is “Discovering Your Personal Money Mindset,” you talk in Chapter 1 about your childhood money classroom. And you make a strong argument that this is the first step in understanding why we handle money the way that we do and that “there are really two ways we learned about money: what our parents communicated emotionally and what they communicated verbally.” Tell us more about these two modes of communication and why it is so important to dig into our past for some honest reflection before we chart our path forward.

Rachel Cruze: Yes, well whenever you talk to any great psychologist or counselor or therapist, they will tell you that so much of who you are today is from how you grew up, whether that’s coping mechanisms, defense strategies, all of that. Learning to kind of survive really in your childhood is something that’s engrained in all of us. And so when I was writing the book, I wanted to go in and say, “OK, I want to understand why we handle money the way we do.” Like you said, it’s not just the what — you know, we talk about the how a lot around Ramsey Solutions, how to get out of debt, how to invest, how to refinance, how to give, but I wanted to answer that question, why? Why do we do the things we do? And it always stems back to that classroom that you lived in, which is your home growing up. And there’s a lot of lessons in those classrooms that we grew up in that you want to unlearn. As an adult, you’re like, I don’t want to take that with me. And there’s a lot of lessons that you do want to take with you. And so being able to just pinpoint, hey, my money habits, the way I view money, part of that is because of my environment growing up. And so those two modes of communication, like you said, the verbal, what is said out loud, and then that emotional state, is really important. So as I was writing the manuscript for this book, you know, kind of coming across these two things, and I remember thinking, oh, OK, it’s like a quadrant. God gave me a graph to explain this, and I’m so happy because it ends up being this four quadrant where that verbal communication and emotional communication intersect. And it ends up really showing these four different money classrooms. And so for you to be able to identify OK, I grew up in Classroom No. 1 or Classroom No. 2 there, and to understand that really will show you why you handle money the way you do today.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and this was really a gut check for me, Rachel, as a father of four young boys, you know, I feel like I do a decent job in communicating verbally about money. It’s something I talk about daily, but it was a gut check on like the emotional part and what are some of the messages that we’re sending to our kids? And so part of this as I read it is unlearning in part or reflecting upon your past but also for those that are out there that are parents, thinking about some of the money scripts and messages that we’re sending in our own homes as well.

Rachel Cruze: That’s right. Yeah. And even that nonverbal, you know, in the classroom, Classroom 1 is the anxious money classroom. And that’s where it’s verbally closed but emotionally stressed. Classroom 2 is the unstable money classroom where it’s emotionally stressed but verbally open, so it’s lots of conflict, lots of fighting. That Classroom 3 is the unaware money classroom, which is emotionally calm but it’s verbally closed. So it’s not talked about, but it’s also not felt. Like it’s a stress point, so you don’t really even — your head is kind of in the sand, if you will, about money until you leave home and realize, oh wow, there’s a lot to do with this subject. And then Classroom 4 is that secure money classroom. And that’s where it’s verbally open but emotionally calm. So that fourth classroom, kind of like what you’re saying, I really wanted the readers to think about their current nuclear family to say, OK, if I do have kids or if I want kids in the future, how am I going to do this on the verbal and emotional scale? And so moving to that Classroom 4 is really important for people because the thing about that is you don’t have to be a perfect parents by any means to be in that classroom. You also don’t have to have a ton of money, right? You don’t have to be like a millionaire to be in that. It’s these habits that you create. And what’s funny is when you’re emotionally calm about money, usually there’s a plan around it, usually there’s a level of healthy control. There’s some safety nets in place like an emergency fund, you know, there’s these habits that you do in the how-to of money that set you up to create that emotionally stable home around this subject where for so many people it’s not safe, it’s not emotionally calm, it is very stressed. And when you look at the statistics of the average American today, I’m like, yeah, I would be stressed too, right? Living paycheck-to-paycheck, having $16,000 of credit card debt, all of it. So I understand why that is, but getting yourself in a place financially where you’re more under control, you’re naturally going to bring in that emotional side in your household, which is amazing. And then the verbal side you pointed out too is talking about it. And I think it’s less taboo today than it was even 20 years ago. I think parents engage their kids in more conversations maybe than the Boomers did for their kids, you know, like when you look at the different generational differences. But again, engaging it and showing the mechanics but also the other side of it of hey, here’s what contentment looks like. Here’s what generosity does to your heart and your viewpoint in life. I mean, you know, bringing in those hard and soft subjects of money are important to talk to about with kids.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I love, Rachel, how you take folks through this journey of understanding these four different classrooms you mentioned in the quadrant. And it can be heavy to kind of walk through and reflect on some of this. But you end Chapter 3 where you talk about calm money classrooms, you end Chapter 3 by reassuring us that our childhood does not define us. You say, “Your childhood may have given you a rocky start, but it doesn’t make or break you, regardless of the household you grew up in. You get to choose your quadrant from this point forward.” What an awesome view, right? We learn from the past, but we’ve got an opportunity to chart a new path going forward.

Rachel Cruze: That’s right, yeah. I mean, there’s so much hope and I think even in the money piece of my messages that I communicate with people is like no matter what mistakes you’ve made, yeah, maybe you do have a ton of debt. So on a more logistical side, yeah, maybe you have a deeper hole to dig out of than the person next to you, but no matter what, you get to make the decisions to say, no, I actually want to change how I view something or the habits around money. And the same is true with your classroom. Some people, a lot of people I would say, grew up in a hard environment when it came to money with their parents. But yet you don’t have to just mirror that story, right? You can take charge of your life to say, you know what, I’m not going to sit here and bash my parents, but I’m also not going to defend them. I’m going to just tell the truth of what happened, and here’s the truth. OK, there’s some good stuff, and there’s some bad stuff. And the bad stuff I can forgive, and I’m going to move forward though to choose something different for my life and my family. And I think it’s powerful. And I think we have to do that in all of parenting. I’m not a parenting expert by any means, but I’m like, you know, my husband and I have said, OK, this is our family. What are we going to choose to do in this? And so the money pieces is part of that.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And give yourself some grace along the way, right?

Rachel Cruze: That’s right. Oh, absolutely. There’s hope in grace. Absolutely.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Rachel, in Chapter 4, which is “Your Unique Money Tendencies,” you introduce seven major money tendencies. And we’re not going to go through all of these, but I’ll read them off quickly. And those seven are save or spender, nerd or free spirit, experiences or things, quality or quantity, safety or status, abundance or scarcity, and planned giving or spontaneous giving. And I want to break down one of these further that I suspect our audience has heard of before, and that is the concept of being a nerd or being a free spirit. And so this as one example of these different tendencies, tell us more about the difference between these two and why each really has its own benefits and challenges and we want to think about these on a scale.

Rachel Cruze: Yes. Well, when I did these seven tendencies, I didn’t want one to be right or wrong because I feel like that can happen a lot. You know, it’s just no, these are naturally where you’re bent, and if you go to the extremes of any of these tendencies, that can get unhealthy. Kind of that middle ground is to say, ‘OK, I’m naturally bent towards this, but I can actually have a little bit of both,’ which makes you I think more well-rounded, honestly. But yeah, the nerd and free spirit, that was kind of a phrase that was coined, two terms that were coined by my dad, honestly, about probably 20 years ago talking about the budget specifically and how I make it a little bit more broad in just the idea of how you view money, but one of you — or if you’re married, usually opposites attract. But you either lean toward a nerd, which is the one that yeah, you’re just organized, you probably have Excel spreadsheets all over the place, you love to budget, you love to feel in control, you know what’s going on, you keep up with everything, numbers are your friends, it feels great to know what’s going on. And so that nerd is naturally going to be bent one way towards money, which obviously is more the control factor. Sometimes more the scarcity mindset, they want to just know what’s going on. And then the free spirit is on the opposite end, and that’s the person that is more hey, everything is going to work out. It’s fine, it’s fine. A budget to them, it feels restrictive. It feels like there’s no fun in life if I have to live on a budget, that means I have to say no a lot, and I don’t want to say no. I want to say yes because you only live once, you know? It’s a little bit more of that mentality. And what’s funny is I actually lean more free spirit in who I am, so this money stuff and budgeting, some of it was hard for me to say, OK, I have to learn this because I don’t have to become a nerd to be good at money. That’s not the reason behind this. But it is to say, “Hey, there are qualities that I need to pick up,” because if I’m a free spirit on the extreme of the free spirit side, I’m probably going to be broke. I’m probably going to have lots of debt because I’m not keeping up with anything, I’m just doing what I want in the moment, what feels good. And that’s not wise. But I also don’t have to absolutely love numbers like my husband. He is more of the nerd. Like I mean, he has spreadsheets. He’s like all about the five-year goal and what’s going in each month, looking at the mutual funds. I mean, he just loves it. And I’m like, I’m the money person that talks about this every day, and I don’t love it that much. Like I’ll do the budget and track transactions, but that’s about it. So again, it’s just pinpointing hey, here’s where I lean, here’s places I can learn, and here’s some really great things about that side of the nerd or great things about the free spirit. And then if you’re married, again, it’s good to call that too because I think in marriage, money can be such a difficult subject. But to be able to say, “OK, you’re not my enemy in this. You’re just more of a nerd in that or you’re more of a free spirit, so how can we come together and work as a team?”

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, you do a great job in the book going through each one of these sets that I mentioned and not only what they are and some of the differences and where that balance might but also some great exercises at the end of the chapter where folks can reflect upon those, and I think it would be great conversation starters as well for couples that are going through this together. Rachel, Chapters 5 and 6, it gets real, right? You start to talk about your money fears, six of them in total. And I want to pick apart the fear that you say is the most common one you see, which is not having enough. And essentially, this is if something bad happens, the fear that I won’t survive financially. And as you talk about in the book, this could be job loss, this could be a huge health bill, this could be a major house issue. And really, the list can go on and on of all of the things that might go wrong. And it could be a today thing, a today fear, or it could be a future fear. For example, will I have enough when it comes time to retirement? And I think this quickly becomes overwhelming and for many can become paralyzing. And as you say in the book, the “what if” question, it’s a scary question. And so tell us more here, how can we face this fear head-on without it ultimately paralyzing us to take action with our financial plan?

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, when we talk about fear — for this book, I did a lot of research around it because usually fear is just seen as a 100% bad thing, right? Face your fears, don’t let your fear hold you back, all that. Well, some of that, yes, is very true. I remember talking to Dr. Chip Dodd about this, and I loved what he said because he said, fear can actually be a gift. Fear is your body’s response that you are in need of something. Now, again, when that fear becomes paralyzing or turns into anxiety, like any of that, we don’t want that. But just that initial fear, OK, what is that telling you? Because it actually could be telling you something that you need to listen to to diminish that fear. So for a lot of people — and gosh, we just walked through 2020, right, which was just the craziest year I think of all of our lives, around this. And so you could say, OK, my fear is that if something happens, am I going to be OK? If we lose a job, am I going to be OK? Well, you look at your situation and again, just pulling in just stats that I know that 78% of Americans live paycheck-to-paycheck, the average car payment is around $548, the average family owes $16,000 just on their credit cards. So you put all that together and if something happens, are you going to be OK? Well yeah, you’re going to be able to literally survive. But financially, you’re going to be in a mess. You’re going to be in a mess if you don’t have another paycheck to pay these bills. So let’s look at the reality of what’s going on. Again, it’s not to paralyze you, but it’s to say, OK, what can I do now to get in better control of my money? Am I budgeting? Am I living on less than I make? Do I have an emergency fund? And do I have a goal that I’m working towards that actually puts my money towards something, right? Am I giving? Like am I doing these things? And for a lot of people, if they say, “No, I’m not,” hopefully it’s a little bit of a motivator. I don’t think fear has to be the only motivator, but I think it’s a good jumpstart to it of OK, let’s get some things in place so that we can say, OK, maybe you look up in 24, 36 months, three years down the road, and you’re completely debt-free, you have a fully-funded emergency fund of 3-6 months worth of expenses. You now have retirement planned out, you know how much you’re putting in each month, like you actually have a plan in place. And what caused that may have been that fear of wow, if I lose one paycheck, this entire thing just implodes is what it feels like. So again, let that fear drive you. And again, it’s a big one, that fear of am I going to be OK? And what’s interesting is prior to 2020, it was women’s top financial fear. So for some men, it was oh, there’s a dream that I have that I can’t get to because of my life or you fill in the lank. But women day-in and day-out, consistently when surveyed, it was am I going to be OK? And then I think you fast forward to 2021, I don’t have hard data for this, but I would say a lot of people now are in that bucket.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Rachel Cruze: Because of what we walked through. So again, I want this fear to not turn into something that’s super unhealthy, but I want it to be a little bit of that jumpstart to say OK, is this rational? OK, maybe it is. So maybe I need to change some things. But then also I’ll tell you this too: It could be irrational. I mean, my husband and I have been doing this plan for 11 years of marriage, so we are, we’re debt-free — I mean, we’ve done it to the t. And it works, No. 1, I can say that. I’m the proof. But No. 2, even during the pandemic, I had a few nights where I went to bed thinking, oh my gosh, are we going to be OK? But what allowed me a little bit to have that safety is realizing No. 1, black-and-white on paper, the numbers, yes, we’re going to be fine because we’ve been doing this, we’ve been diligent. But also No. 2, Rachel, it’s a little bit of a wakeup call for me emotionally to say why am I so fearful that this foundation that I’ve set, this financial foundation, that if it was shook, who am I? Right? And it made me do a gut check, honestly, to say OK, where is my identity? Where have I been putting value? Because money, while we need to be responsible with it and we want to be able to do things like get out of debt and build wealth and change our family tree and be generous to others, all of these wonderful things, money is not our God. And if it’s the thing day-in and day-out that you’re looking toward, it’s not going to fulfill you. And I kind of got to a place where I had to do a gut check on myself last year to think, OK, who am I emotionally on that side, right, if that foundation is shaken? So again, this fear conversation I think is a really important one to have. And I think it’s a really good one to have.

Tim Ulbrich: I do too. And I think it can be motivating for the reasons that you mentioned. Our listeners have heard me say many times about really building a strong financial foundation and think about what the building blocks of that are. But there are challenges that can be had in the security of that foundation and what you’re ultimately putting that security in. So I think a great reminder. And this section of the book, as I mentioned, really powerful. You talked through several other fears. We’re just scratching the surface here. You talk about the fears of not realizing your dreams, of not being capable, external fears, past mistakes, repeating the past, you know, all types of things that we want to be considering. So I hope folks will pick up a copy of the book and check that out. Rachel, Part 2 of the book, “Discovering What You Do With Money and Why,” you connect the information the reader learns in Part 1 so that it can then be applied to their personal situation. And one thing that stood out to me in this section was the concept that you talk about, the power of contentment. And you say that “contentment is a process that changes your motivation for spending money.” Tell us more about that.

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, contentment I think is a huge piece of this financial conversation that has to be in place because money is like a magnifying glass. It makes you more of what you already are. And so if you are a discontent person and you think — and it’s all of us, you know, at different times in life for sure and maybe different parts of the day too, so I’m not speaking out of that I have found the answer to it all — but realizing though if we live in a discontentment state, which usually results in OK, if I can just make x amount of money, if I can just buy this kind of car, if I can go on that kind of vacation, if I live in this kind of house, then everything is going to be fixed. And we think that in our culture in our country that our problems are fixed by stuff. And that discontentment is just magnified, and the problem is that if you build wealth and you actually have the money to go and get these things, you get the things, and it doesn’t fulfill you and you’re discontent again with just more stuff around you. And so there’s that heart piece that I think is important to keep in check. And for me, it’s calling out to people, OK, what are the things in your life that money — there’s not a price tag towards. And this was kind of my journey even just last year, I thought, Rachel, what are the things in my life that I can’t pay for. Well, that’s a great marriage, having children that I am trying to raise in the best way possible, my health, my spiritual walk, my family, you know, my friendships, like relationships. So kind of mapping those things out and realizing OK, if I can invest my time and my energy in those things, life is so much richer, right? And again, not that it doesn’t mean you can’t have a great house or go on a great vacation. My husband and I just got back on Saturday from a fun trip that him and I just took, you know, for a few nights. It was fantastic. It was wonderful. But those things don’t fulfill you, right? It’s the fact that I was with my husband. And we got to have that time together. That is what was fulfilling. And so all of that I think stems to that contentment, and that contentment piece, again, I think is — we tried to find it in stuff, and I really push people to find it in things that money can’t buy.

Tim Ulbrich: My favorite part of the book, Rachel, is that you make a really good case for the importance of connecting saving and dreaming. Saving and dreaming. And we talk a lot on this show about having a strong financial why. And this chapter reminded me of that concept. You say that, “Not having any savings is a worrying sign for two big problems. The first problem is that your house isn’t in order. You’re not prepared. But not having savings is also a worrying sign of a second problem: that you’re not tuned into your dreams.” What do you mean by this?

Rachel Cruze: Well, when I did this part of the book, you know, I wanted to kind of walk through OK, why do we spend the way we spend? Why do we save the way we save? Why do we give the way we give? And so when I was in that saving section, I was like, OK, why do we save the way we save? And I’m like, well, what are the things we save for? What are the — I’m like, well, it’s because we have these dreams. Is it to build a house one day? Is it to be debt-free? You know, whatever it is, and that gives purpose behind our dollars. It gives us purpose to say OK, when the money comes in, I actually know where it’s going. It’s going to something that I value in life. And that’s what makes things rich, right? That’s what brings joy. And people that just live life and they’re not intentional, it’s just kind of that paycheck-to-paycheck, I go to work, I get paid, I just keep doing the same thing. And you look up in five years and not much has changed about your life, I bet your savings hasn’t changed either because you don’t have a goal, you don’t have something you’re saving towards. And so that dreaming portion, it is, it’s so, so critical. I mean, any great book motivator that shows you how to be better in certain parts of your life, goals are always in there. Those dreams are always in there. And so there’s the short-term dreams, have something that you’re working towards five years and less so that you can get to it quickly. And then have those dreams that are five years or more that you say, OK, out there in the future, what do I want? And then also have shared dreams. If those two dreams don’t coincide with your spouse, then have something you guys are working at together. I mean, all of this is going to be a partnership if you’re married. But I think having those dreams together is so crucial where yes, we are individuals, so my husband may have a dream to go on a hunting trip, you know, to South Dakota. That’s not my dream. That’s great if that’s his dream. It’s not my dream. So what are the dreams that we have together? And so all of that, it gives you such motivation. And it was funny, that trip we just went on last week, we had an agenda. We had like four things we wanted to talk about. But one of them was we literally set our financial dreams. One of ours was to build a house, and we moved in November of ‘19. And honestly, since then, I mean, we went through 2020, which was crazy. Now, we’re kind of on the other side saying, OK, what do we want? Besides just a number, what are the things that we’re shooting for? And just having those conversations, it’s so fun. I mean, it just brings life to you or again, if you’re married, to your marriage, just to have things that you’re working towards together. Again, it gives you purpose. It gives you purpose to save. And if there’s not purpose to save, you’re more than likely not going to do it.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think shared dreams, it’s so important. Great wisdom. I think especially for folks that are in the weeds and maybe frustrated with the budget or feeling like a goal is taking forever, I think some of those dreams can lift folks together and get excited behind the vision, you know, especially while there’s other things that are happening along the way. Rachel, I want to wrap up our time by talking about giving. And you make the case that giving is ultimately the antidote to fear. Why is that the case?

Rachel Cruze: There’s something about living life with an open hand where you say, “You know what, I’m actually going to give things,” because I think the opposite of that is that closed fist mentality where you’re going to just control everything and it’s all yours and it’s just all right here, and there’s a level of that that just, it gets exhausting. And there’s not joy in that. And so when you actually open your hand and give, which sounds counterintuitive, right, if I’m trying to put money towards a dream or I’m trying to put money towards getting out of debt or building an emergency fund, but I’m giving some of it away, like that just seems so backwards where in fact what it does is it fuels you. Because when you live a life that you move on the spectrum from being selfish where it is all about you to selfless where you actually see other people and you see OK, the needs that are out there, things that your money can do, even if it’s not a lot of money, but using it as a tool to help people, it changes you. I mean, it really, really changes you. And there’s nothing like it. It’s cliche to say, but it’s true. The joy that you get from giving is unlike any other joy that you can have in life. Like it gives something to you, to your soul. Because I think we were created to be givers. And when you’re living in that, it changes your perspective. And I also think selfless people have a better quality of life. I think they’re better spouses, better parents, better coworkers, better friends. You know, people that actually care about other people, it’s an amazing thing, but I think it does, it gives you a quality of life that’s so deep. And I think that it can be — obviously you can give all different kinds of ways, but your money is one of those. And when you live that life with an open hand, it does something to your soul that I think is so, so healthy in a world that is so self-centered.

Tim Ulbrich: Rachel, great, great stuff. Where is the best place that our community can go to connect with you and learn more about your work?

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, you can go to RachelCruze.com. The book “Know Yourself, Know Your Money” is anywhere books are sold. And I’m also — I have a podcast, “The Rachel Cruze Show” you can check out as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So to the YFP community, make sure to pick up your copy of “Know Yourself, Know Your Money,” available really anywhere, also available at RamseySolutions.com. We’ve just scratched the surface during this interview. I’m confident you’ll gain so much more from digging into the book and completing the activities at the end of each chapter. In the book, you’ll discover what’s at the root of your money tendencies, including how to overcome your biggest money fears, how your childhood impacts your money decisions today, and what really motivates your spending, saving, giving, and more. Rachel, thank you again for taking time to come on the show. Really appreciate it.

Rachel Cruze: No, thanks for having me. Really, really thankful. Thanks.

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