Behavioral Finance / Podcast

YFP 318: Midyear Tax Planning and Projections

Posted on July 27, 2023July 25, 2023 by Caitlin Boyle

YFP Director of Tax, Sean Richards, CPA, EA digs into what midyear tax projections are, why they matter, and specific examples where a midyear projection can help someone optimize their financial situation. We discuss the importance of adjusting withholdings, ensuring record keeping is up to date, common pitfalls business owners and side hustlers can avoid with a projection and tax considerations with student loan payments coming back online.

Episode Summary

YFP Director of Tax, Sean Richards, CPA, EA is here to explain the incredible benefits of doing a midyear tax projection. Sean defines a midyear projection, illustrates how projections can lead to peace of mind, and clarifies why everyone should be doing their own midyear projections. Our conversation explores why being proactive is always better than being reactive, why proactive planning is necessary when making big life changes like getting married or buying property, or getting a new job, and a host of real-world examples that highlight the undeniable benefits of midyear projections. Plus, Sean describes how midyear projections can help with tax optimization and strategies for student loan repayments, and the wealth of opportunities that become available to business owners who embrace proactive planning.

Key Points From the Episode

A warm welcome back to the show to YFP Director of Tax, Sean Richards.
How he’s spending his free time post-tax season as a father of two under two.
Sean explains what a midyear projection is.
How projections can lead to peace of mind.
Why everyone should be doing a midyear projection for themselves, according to Sean.
Real-world examples of the benefits of doing a mid-year projection.
How being proactive is better than being reactive.
Why proactive planning is a necessity when making big life changes like buying property.
The role of midyear projections in tax optimization.
Exploring the opportunities available for business owners who do midyear projections.
How a midyear projection can help you optimize your student loan repayment strategy.

Episode Highlights

“A lot of people get stressed out about taxes, and I don’t blame them — when you’re in high school, you learn that the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell, but they don’t teach you how to file your taxes and do basic finance things.” — Sean Richards [04:52]

“At the very minimum, anybody who’s paying taxes and has a job and has to file a tax return at the end of the year should be doing some level of projecting the end of the year, to make sure that there’s no crazy surprises.” — Sean Richards [09:27]

“To the extent [that] you can mirror your tax strategy with your financial plan; it’s always just the best way to do things.” — Sean Richards [34:25]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

EPISODE 318

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and welcome to this week’s episode of the YFP Podcast, where we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome back to the show, YFP Director of Tax, Sean Richards. We discuss mid-year tax projections, what they are, why they matter, and specific examples for how a mid-year projection can help someone optimize their tax situation. We discuss the importance of adjusting withholdings, ensuring record keeping is up-to-date, common pitfalls that business owners and side hustlers can avoid with a projection, and tax considerations with student loan payments coming back online in a couple of months.

You can learn more about YFP tax services for both individuals and businesses, by visiting yfptax.com. Again, that’s yfptax.com.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:00:50] TU: Sean, welcome back to the show.

[0:00:52] SR: Thank you. It feels like I was just here, but it also feels like it was just tax season yesterday. So I think things are all sort of blending together at this point, which is understandable given the rush of everything, and now that we’re in summer and all these other stuff going on, but I love being here. I appreciate you having me back on.

[0:01:08] TU: So, we’re post-tax season, you’ve got a new baby in the house, we’re gearing up for mid-year projections, which we’re going to talk about in this show. You should have ton of free time right now, right?

[0:01:19] SR: Yes. I really haven’t been doing a whole lot of anything, just kicking back on the couch, and kind of watching a lot of TV and stuff. It’s baseball season, so you get these games that you can just sort of put on the background and sleep all day. That’s basically what I’ve been doing. Yes, nothing really going on at work, at home with the new baby, and the other baby who’s under two. Two under two right now, so yes, a lot of free time. So if you’ve got anything for me to work on, please send it over.

[0:01:45] TU: I’ll keep that in mind. Two under two is intense. Yes, I remember, I shared with you our oldest two are separated by 17 months, and our other two are a little bit further spaced out. Two under two is the real deal, so kudos to you and your wife for making that happen. As you were talking about yesterday, I can remember very well. All of a sudden, baby comes in and your oldest, who still is relatively young looks much older all of a sudden, right?

[0:02:11] SR: Yes, she does look much older. But she also – and I swear it’s not just a comparison of or – I shouldn’t say the comparison, but now, we have a little one at home, so she seems older. But I swear, overnight, she went from being one and a half to being two and getting those terrible twos right in there. Because, man, it’s like you said, it’s intense. But it’s really exciting, it’s awesome. I mean, I couldn’t be happier with everything. But it definitely – it’s exciting challenge what I would say for sure.

[0:02:38] TU: Well, last time we had you on was Episode 309. We talked about the top 10 tax blunders that pharmacists make. That was coming off of the tax season. Here we are, end of July, people may not be thinking about taxes in the middle and dead of the summer, but we’re going to hopefully make a case of why tax is important to consider not just in tax season, not just in December, but really year-round. That’s our philosophy, our belief at YFP Tax, that tax planning, especially for those that have more complicated situations, when done well, is exactly that. We’re doing year-round planning, we’re proactive, we’re not as reactive. We’re going to talk about an important piece of that year-round approach, which is the mid-year projection today.

Before we discuss that midyear projection and some of the details and reasons of doing that, Sean, just define at a high level by what we mean by that term, right? We throw that around internally all the time, mid-year projection. All of our listeners certainly are familiar, hopefully, with filing taxes, but maybe not as familiar have experienced with a mid-year projection, so tell us more.

[0:03:42] SR: Yes. I mean, it really is. I mean, if you look at what it says, it’s a projection, right? You’re projecting out what you expect to have at the end of the year. Really what it is, is kind of like putting together your tax return now based on what you think it’s going to be at the end of the year. Obviously, there’s some variables there and some uncertainty with everything, as it always is with forecasting, and budgeting, and that sort of thing. That being said, given that there are uncertainties, there are things that you want to keep an eye on. So, yes, it’s really just doing a projection of your finances for the year, and really coming down to what we think your tax return is going to look like. Are you going to have a bill? Are you going to have a refund or not? Then, looking at that and working backwards to say, “What can we do to tweak things?”

[0:04:29] TU: If we go a layer deeper on that, Sean, why do one? What’s the case to have one done? What’s ultimately the goal that we’re shooting for here?

[0:04:38] SR: I think the goal, and I mean, you kind of alluded to before saying, people probably aren’t thinking about taxes right now, and that’s totally fair. I don’t expect people to be thinking about taxes right now, unless you’re maybe me or somebody in similar shoes as me. But, I mean, the goal is that a lot of people get stressed out about taxes, and I don’t blame them. It’s one of those things where I joke that when you’re in high school, you learn that the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell, but they don’t teach you how to file your taxes, and do basic finance things, right?

What generally happens is, you’re kind of – I don’t want to say sweeping things under the rug, but you’re not thinking about taxes, or it’s not top of mind throughout the course of the year. Then you get to the end of the year, and you’re doing your return. It’s all looked back, all historical. There’s not much you can do at that point, right? So if you’re filing your return next year, for this year, and you have a big refund, it’s nice to have a refund, but you’ve got all this cash all the sudden that you could have been doing stuff with last year or vice versa. You get to the end of next year, or the end of this year, you’re filing next year, and you have a huge bill.

Whether you have the cash ready to pay it or not, it’s nothing that anybody wants to have, right? The idea of doing the projection now is that you’re not getting to a point where you’re stressed out, thinking what could have been, what should have been last year. You’re getting ahead of those things and saying, “Hey, right now, things look great. Don’t have to do anything, or things don’t look as good as they could be. Let’s tweak that.” Or maybe not even any of those. It’s just, “Hey, right now, we have status quo, but there’s some things that are changing in my life. I have a new job, or I’m thinking about opening up a rental property, or something.” And making sure you have those ideas in your head now as opposed to, again, in April and handing it to your accountant saying, “I forgot to mention, I bought that house last year. Oops.”

[0:06:30] TU: Yes. I think with most things, and we’ll talk about some specific examples here. But most things when we shift to more proactive planning versus reactive, and obviously, for those that have more complicated situations, the more the proactive planning is going to help, and we’ll talk about that in more detail as well. But anytime we make that mindset shift, there’s an opportunity for peace of mind as well, right?

I think a lot of people I talked to, Sean, when I say, “Hey, what are the opportunities? Are you thinking about opportunities to really optimize tax as a part of your financial plan?” Everyone’s like, “Yes, I want to do that. I want to make sure that I’m paying my fair share, but no more.” But then actually, executing on that. It’s like this cloud of not exactly sure what to do, how to best navigate it. I think that is the opportunity with the year-round planning. Ideally, we’ll make the case of why it’s important to have a CPA in your corner throughout the year as well. But I think that peace of mind part is just such an important piece, especially for many pharmacists, I know that have this lingering question of like, “Am I doing everything that I can?”

There’s the cleanup part where maybe we’ve made mistakes, or we don’t want to have a big bill or refund, but then there’s the second layer of that, which is that nagging feeling of like, is there something else I could be doing? I think that’s one of the values of projection.

[0:07:49] SR: Yes. I mean, the peace of mind thing, like you said, is that I feel like going back to the whole high school idea of how they don’t teach these things to a lot of folks. I remember getting my first job out of college, and I had an accounting, and finance, and even tax background from college. You start getting these things, “Hey, do you want to do an HSA? Do you want to do 401(k)?” There’s ROTH and traditional, there’s IRAs, and everything, and people are like, “I don’t know what any of this stuff is. I’m just – I’m getting a nice paycheck for the first time now. I know I want to save, but I don’t know what any of this stuff means.” It becomes overwhelming to have all these things happen.

Like you said, you don’t want to come to the end of the year and say, I wish I had done these things. Because I didn’t know that that – there were opportunities for me to save here and there. I just thought that I was doing the right thing by putting my money in this savings account or in this account. So yes, I think, again, the uncertainty, and just sort of lack of general tax knowledge in the country, and world can be stressful, and not having to worry about that is very important for peace of mind in general sanity.

[0:08:55] TU: To be fair, the process is more complicated than it probably needs to be. And because of those complications, there’s some of the ownership and work on us to be planning throughout the year. One of that part piece, of course, would be the mid-year projection. Sean, I have to admit, prior to really building our tax team over the last several years, a mid-year projection was something that was never on my radar. My question for you is, should everyone do a mid-year projection? Is this necessary for everyone?

[0:09:26] SR: I think it is. I think at the very minimum, anybody who’s paying taxes, and has a job, and has to file a tax return at the end of the year should be doing some level of projecting the end of the year to make sure that there’s no crazy surprises. You might be listening to this and saying, “Hey, my situation is really simple. I filled out my W-4 when I started my job. I don’t have any crazy stuff going on. I don’t think I really need to do this.” But again, we keep coming back to this peace of mind thing and that could be great. Maybe your return last year was fine, and there’s not a lot of stuff that’s changing, but there’s always changes to the tax law. I mean, the W-4 system changes all the time, and I know it’s not – people don’t even realize, “Hey, can I claim one or two exemptions?” That’s not how it works anymore.

There’s always changes to the law, and changes to things going on. Even if you think your situation is pretty simple, and doesn’t apply to you, just doing a quick check to make sure, “Hey, there’s not going to be any crazy surprises.” Again, with something like that, you’re not necessarily going to be saying, “Oh, am I taking advantage of all the laws that exist out there, and all the different ways to maximize my tax savings?” But you just want to make sure. “Hey, am I going to owe a ton of money to the IRS at the end of the year? Or am I going to get a ton of money back that the government was borrowing for me for free for the entire year?” What I would say is, if your situation is simple, you can even just go on the W-4 calculator that the IRS provides. It’s not perfect, please. No one from the agency come and chase me down. It’s not a perfect system, and there’s a couple of different things that can happen there.

You might go through the whole process and get a bad answer, and then say, “Well, what am I supposed to do with this? It just says that I’m going to owe a lot of money, but I don’t know how to fix that.” Or you might just use the tool, and like I was alluding to, you might just get frustrated with it and say, “Why all these questions they’re asking me? I don’t understand any of this stuff. Why is it so complicated?” It is a good starting point, I would say, especially for those with simple situations. But I would just advise to be wary when you’re doing it that. It’s not a perfect system, and it definitely can be a little confusing.

[0:11:34] TU: Yes, and I’ll be honest. Admittedly, I’m a little bit impatient, and want these tools to always be better than they are. I’ve been on the IRS W-4 calculator tools, and I’ve gotten annoyed, frustrated playing with that, and I’ve left. I think the decision tree to your point, for people that have a very simple tax situation, can they do it themselves? The technical answer is yes, there’s an IRS calculator. It’s going to give you some basic information. The follow-up question is, do you want to do it yourself? Then the follow-up question to that is, if you have a more complicated situation, and/or you’re looking for more input of advice based on the output of that number, that’s really where some of the assistance and help that can come in from working with professionals.

We’ll link to the show notes to the IRS W-4 calculator. Certainly, people can play around with that, which I’d recommend regardless of working with someone else. Just have a better understanding of the different inputs in these numbers, and hopefully to get the conversation started as well.

[0:12:33] SR: Yes, absolutely.

[0:12:34] TU: Let’s talk about some common examples where a mid-year projection can help. You’re in these conversations every week with our year-round tax planning clients. We talked about several these in Episode 309. Again, we’ll link to that in the show notes. That was a top 10 tax blunders that we see pharmacists making, which we recorded after the tax season. But I think there’s an opportunity here really to bring to life, not just the academic or theoretical side of why a video projection may be necessary, or what it is, but some actual examples where a mid-year projection can help. I’ll turn it over to you to talk through some of the most common places where you see this having value.

[0:13:11] SR: Yes, sure. I would say, the number one thing probably is just adjusting withholdings in a very – to put it in two words, it’s adjusting your withholdings, or adjusting withholdings, get rid of the “your” and “there.” But I swear I’m better at math than I lead on when I do these things. But yes, it’s adjusting withholdings. Like I said, the W-4 system changed a few years ago. Some people don’t even realize that. Some people probably set up their withholdings 20 years ago, and they started a job, and haven’t done anything since then. That might work for some folks, but the way that the W-4 holdings works now with the IRS is, if you get a new job, or your spouse gets a new job, or you have changes in salary, and everything, your withholdings might not be working the way that they did in the past.

You can also have other life events that sort of throw a wrench into that. You can get married, have kids. Even if you are married, you can kind of consider, and we’ll talk more about this when we get into some of the other blunders, but consider whether you’re going to file separately or file jointly. That changes the way you do withholdings and everything. That’s probably the number one area. Like I said, not withholding properly at the end of the year is almost certainly going to cause a problem whether it’s you’re over withholding, and you’re getting that big refund back, or you’re under withholding and you have a big bill.

The biggest and easiest way to kind of course correct. If we do a projection and we see that that’s the case, submit your W-4 to your employer, all of a sudden, you’re withholding appropriately. We can do a catch up to get you to where you need to be, or make an estimated payment or something like that. But I would say that’s the number one thing, and it sort of encapsulates everything else. Not entirely, but just because holding down a W-2 job and getting the taxes taken out of your paycheck is the way that most folks are paying the IRS. I would say, that’s probably the biggest one.

[0:15:04] TU: Let me jump in real quick, Sean, before you move on to other common examples, because that one is so common. I just want to highlight, when you think about the situations where withholding adjustments are necessary, you mentioned individuals getting married, and need dependents, I think about people that are moving different locations. They’re buying homes, new job, changes in income. These are things we see all the time. The key here is, we want to give ourselves as much time as possible to make a pivot, or a change on either side of this. We find out that, “Hey, because of X, Y and Z, we’re anticipating a big refund. All right. Let’s start making some adjustments, so we can put that money to work in other parts of the financial planning.”

We find out that we’re going to have a big liability due. Well, we just bought ourselves some more time to kind of budget, and plan before that payment is going to become due, and to make those adjustments. That’s so important, because this is the phase of life where we least want a surprise, right, especially on the O side of things, right? Getting married, moving, new job, new house, expenses that come with that. We want to avoid as much as possible, the surprises that are going to put a wrench in the other part of the financial plan.

I think withholdings, adjusting withholdings, we all are familiar with. You take a new job, you fill out the paperwork, but I think we can lose track of that throughout the year, or when those job changes aren’t happening. Just wanted to drive that home further.

[0:16:26] SR: The two things I would add to that are also – the big thing is that people are always excited about getting their refunds, right? If you get a big refund back, it’s cool. It’s almost like you found the $20 bill in your pocket, and went to the washing machine that you didn’t know about. But would you rather find out about a refund in April and get the cash back now, or find out now that you’re going to be getting that refund back, and then be able to actually put that in a savings account, or deploy it somewhere where you can get a return on it, as opposed to getting that cash back in a few months with nothing, right? It’s like a net present value sort of thing to borrow finance term. But would you rather get $10,000 in six months or $10,000 now? The answer is now, right?

[0:17:09] TU: Especially with where interest rates are on high-yield savings accounts and other things.

[0:17:12] SR: Exactly. I mean, any way that you can get a little bit of extra cash now as opposed to tomorrow, or anytime in the future, it’s better. Then the other thing that I would say, I keep going back to the whole W-4 withholding thing, is that you might be perfectly fine at your job and nothing has changed. When I say perfectly fine, status quo, right? You’re working the same job, standard raises every year, nothing crazy going on. But with the way the W-4 systems work now, if your spouse goes and gets a new job, and they update their W-4, but you don’t do anything on your end, that can mess things up. People don’t realize that. They’re thinking, “Hey. You go and claim the exemptions that you’ve always claimed in the past.” We have one kid, or two kids, or whatever it is, but that’s not the way it works anymore.

Even if it’s not you that’s had changes to your life, specifically, you have to think about your entire family and everybody who’s landing on that tax return at the end of the day. That’s one thing that definitely slipped some folks minds, I would say.

[0:18:05] TU: Great stuff. So just withholdings, I’m hearing you loud and clear, probably the most common thing that we see. It’s one of those things that big impact, but not a huge amount of work to be done to make this pivot. That’s a low hanging fruit. Talk us through other common examples where a mid-year projection can really help.

[0:18:24] SR: One good one is, this is another kind of, “Hey, this comes up every year with tax and filing is record keeping.” So we get to the end of the year, you purchased a rental property, and you’re excited about it, you’re getting some cash and everything. And now it’s time to file taxes. Instead of just your typical, “Hey, Sean, or Mr. CPA, here’s my W-2, and here’s my 10-99, and I’m good to go.” You have a rental property now. There’s a lot of things that need to go into something like that. You might not be thinking about some of the ins and outs that happen with that. I mean, if you have improvements to your property, those are treated differently than if you have electricity costs that go into your property. There’s a lot of different things that people don’t think about.

It’s not even that people don’t think about it, you don’t want to be scrambling at the end of the year to say, “Ah, I got to go get all those receipts, and get all my finances together and all that stuff, and try to get pulled all together when everybody’s trying to all do the same thing.” The extent you can get ahead of that now is great, obviously from a getting your ducks in a row and helping your CPA out at the end of the year. But also, going back to this whole idea of what am I going to owe at the end of the year? If you’re able to come to me or whoever you’re working with and say, “Hey, here’s the settlement statement for the house that I just bought. Here’s all the details. Here are all the closing costs and everything. Can you build that into my projection?”

The answer is absolutely yes. I’ll run that through and see what your rental is going to look like for the year or anything. It doesn’t have to be a rental property. You can be starting a side business, or doing anything like that. But just having this stuff together gets you ready for the end of the year, but also allows us to be able to, again, do those calculations to say, “Hey, you know, that rental that you built, or that you just bought, and you just did that big addition on? Well, that’s going to save you in depreciation this year, so you’re going to get a refund back. Let’s redeploy that cash.” Maybe you put it back into the rental property, I don’t know. But now we have the opportunity to do something with it.

[0:20:27] TU: I’m so glad you mentioned this one, because we are seeing a larger and larger part of our community that’s jumping into real estate investing. We’re seeing a larger percentage of our community that’s jumping into a side hustle or a business. Just so important, and we’ll talk about other things for business owners here in a moment to consider. But what we’re trying to avoid – not that this ever happened, Sean. But we’re trying to avoid is, hey, we get to tax filing, and you ask for the information come February and March. It’s like, “Oh, yes. By the way, I bought a rental property eight months ago. Can you figure this out right for me tomorrow?” Again, proactive planning.

[0:21:05] SR: Now, that example, “Hey, I bought a rental property last year, I forgot to mention it to you.” People might be rolling their eyes saying, “Okay. Well, if you work with an accountant, who is not going to tell their account about their rental property?” Sure, that’s totally – that might be unrealistic to some folks, I get it. But we’ve seen plenty of circumstances where folks have been, say, living in their house for 20 years. They decide, I’m going to rent out a couple rooms in the house this time for the first time. Hey, that’s awesome. Get some side income, be able to write off some of the expenses. It’s great. You’ve been living in this house for 20 years. We need to start taking depreciation on this house for rental, we need all the costs for the last 20 years that you put into that thing.

I mean, I know now some people might be sweating saying, oh, boy, that’s a lot of look back, right? But it’s something that’s going to need to get done anyway, so we rather get ahead of it now or have me looking for that in April, right?

[0:21:55] TU: Yes, good stuff.

[0:21:56] SR: A little bit of a different example there. But hopefully trying to get some people thinking about things.

[0:22:01] TU: Yes. I think, just a proactive, when people are starting, I’m thinking about a lot of individuals in our community that are new real estate investors, first property. So I’m not sure, number one thing on their mind, especially if they’re not yet working with an accountant would be thinking about a lot of the record keeping and get ahead of the proactive tax planning. Now, if they’ve worked with an accountant, or they are multiple properties in, different situation, the trigger goes off. Similar if you’ve been in business for a while, the light bulbs go off more often, like, “Oh, yes. I got to talk to the accountant about this.”

What about opportunities for tax optimization? One of the things I think about with a mid-year projection is, “Hey, we’ve got an opportunity.” Again, proactive not reactive, to really look ahead and say, “Hey, there are the things that we can be doing to pay our fair share, but no more, and optimize their overall tax situation.” Tell us more here.

[0:22:51] SR: Yes, and this one’s good, because it applies to everybody in a very broad spectrum of things, depending on what you have going on in your financial life. That could be something where it’s as simple as, “Hey, I’m working a W-2 job, my spouse is working a W-2 job, we don’t have any kids, nothing else really going on. What can we do to optimize our taxes given our situation?” That’s a perfect example of where it’s an awesome time for your accountant and your financial planner to sort of work together. Because there’s always the idea of, “Hey, we want to maximize our tax savings, but we have a life. We need to be able to have cash to pay our bills and do other things too.” It’s a very delicate balancing act of, “I want to maximize my tax savings, but at the same time, have enough cash to do all the things that I need to do.” It’s a perfect time to work with both your accountant and financial planner to say, “Hey, should I put more money into my HSA? Should I put money into a 529 plan? What kind of thing should I be doing with my extra cash? That opportunity cost of $1?”

But you can also have more, I say, more fun examples, because it’s the ones where you can really think about different opportunities that are out there, and how to take advantage of these laws. An example of that would be, say you have a side business, and you need to buy a new vehicle. There’s so many different things that you can do with that. I could spend an hour maybe. We’ll have a separate podcast on buying a vehicle in the active locations of doing so. I mean, get side business. Hey, how much are you going to be using this thing for business? Are we able to take a section 179 deduction? Is it a type of vehicle that would qualify for something like that?

We have all these new EV credits with the inflation Reduction Act. Are we going to be able to take advantage of all those? What if we use it for business? Can we still take the credits and everything? That might be a little bit of a nuanced example to some folks, but it’s a perfect example in my mind of how something that is, maybe on a day-to-day thing that happens. But something that purchase that folks are going to need to make in their life, most likely. You can really use that as an opportunity to say, “Hey, I got to do this anyway.” How can I also maximize my tax savings at the end of the day, when you’re sitting in a car dealership, and the people are trying to sell you on all these different tools, and upgrades, and everything. You’re probably not thinking, “Hmm. I wonder if I can save my taxes with this purchase?” But it’s always possible.

[0:25:15] TU: I’m going to give credit to our community. I think they are asking that question, Sean.

[0:25:18] SR: They are, for sure. I’m getting that one a lot. In fact, I would be – I challenge you to find another community that’s as interested in the EV craze right now, which is awesome, I have to say. Really, folks should be looking more and more into that, because of those credits I just mentioned. They’re just every year getting better. But yes, I love it. I mean, every year I’m seeing more folks buying EVs, or buying used EVs and getting the credit now. It’s good stuff.

[0:25:46] TU: So, as we continue talking about some of these common examples where mid-year projection can help the other one that I think about, Sean, that we’re seeing a lot more of is, business owners, especially new business owners, right? Maybe they are thinking about tax considerations, withholdings, making sure they’re making quarterly estimated payments if they have to. What’s the opportunities here with the business owners as it relates to the mid-year?

[0:26:11] SR: Well, this is where I say, take all the examples I was just giving you, and throw them out the window. Not exactly, but when I was talking about how adjusting your withholdings is such an important part of this entire thing – I shouldn’t say throw out the window, because they do definitely go hand in hand. But if you’re a business owner, you have a side gig, you’re making money doing that, you’re almost certainly not getting W-2 income from that job. Or I shouldn’t say, you’re almost certainly not, but there’s a good chance you’re getting income from that business that is not having taxes withheld on it.

That is probably the number two or number one and a half blunder that we see where folks have these businesses. They’re not setting aside cash. They get to the end of the year, and are excited to give me the P&L that shows, “Hey, look at all this money I made.” Then I say, “That’s awesome. You owe some money in taxes, do you have that ready to go?” And it’s like, “Oh, I wasn’t thinking about that.” It goes hand in hand with the withholding, but it’s really just hey, let’s look at the business right now. Where are we mid-year? What’s your P&L look like to date? What kind of expenses do we have coming up for the rest of the year?

I talked about these EVs and things. How can we think about maximizing your savings there to reduce your business income, and be able to say, “All right. Well, at the end of the year, we’re expecting that we’re going to have $10,000 in business income.” Being able to say that now, and make your estimated payments up to the IRS is not only a good thing, it’s actually what you’re required to do per the law, right? That’s where I would say that a projection isn’t a nice to have, but an absolute necessity if you’re a business owner. It’s something where you can’t really say, “Hey, I’ll think about this later, or let’s just hope the chips fall in a good spot.” You really need to be doing a projection now to say, “What am I going to owe? Do I need to pay estimated taxes now? Should I have been making estimated quarterly payments up until now? Maybe I need to do a little catch up to hopefully not have a penalty at the end of the year at this point?” But again, to any extent you’re able to get ahead of that now, when I’m looking at the calendar, it says July versus December, January, April, it’s always better.

[0:28:25] TU: Yes. Especially, Sean, think about those new business owners again. Where, often, there’s excitement around the growth, there’s a reinvesting of any of the profits that tried to continue to grow the business. If we can identify some of this mid-year, sometimes that even inform some of the business strategy of like, “Hey, are we charging appropriately? What’s the service model look like?” And making sure that accounting for taxes as I look at the bottom line, and making sure we’ve got cash on hand to do these other things, and of course, not being caught off guard as you mentioned, as well.

[0:28:59] SR: Yes. To give – I don’t want to say a very specific example, because it’s something that we see very, very often. It might seem specific to some folks, but I think a lot of people here will resonate with this. But big one is, business owners, especially first-time business owners paying themselves. A lot of folks will do that, and then they’re maintaining their records and saying, “Hey, my net income is going to be pretty low at the end of the year, so I don’t have to worry about estimated taxes or anything like that.”

Then, we get to the end of the year, you provide your P&L, and I say – actually those $10,000 that you paid yourself, it’s not really a salary expense of the business, because it’s just a sole proprietorship. It’s actually just taxable income to you whether you took the cash or not. That can be very eye opening in a bad way for a lot of folks at the end of the year. It’s not entirely intuitive to think of it that way. You might be thinking, “Well, I worked with the business, I’m paying myself. Isn’t that an expense?” In the eyes of the IRS, depending on the way you’re set your setup, it may or may not be right. Getting ahead of that now and having your accountant maybe give you that bad news of, “Hey, that money is actually something you’d have to pay taxes on the end of the year now so you can plan ahead.” — Is always better than getting that during your tax review meeting in April or May

[0:30:14] TU: Yes, and I get it. For the small business owners, we were there several years ago. For the small business owners that are just getting started, you’re looking at working with a CPA, it’s another expense in the business. I get it, right, but it’s going to pay dividends when you talk about making sure you’ve got the right entity set up classification, separate conversation for a separate day. Making sure we’re withholding correctly, getting financial statements set up correctly, making sure that we’ve got the books in good order. These are all going to be critical components to building a healthy business. You’re not going to get all of it right as you’re getting started, and that’s okay. I think some of that is natural. But making that investment, and building that in as an expense of the business from Jump Street as a part of just doing business to make sure you’ve got all of that in order is going to be really, really important.

[0:31:05] SR: Right. It’s not just a nice to have, like I said, it’s something where that should be part of your plan from the get go, and you’re building this out. People might be thinking about, well, “Hey, isn’t this podcast supposed to be about doing a mid-year projection? Why are we talking about what my business looks like? That’s kind of different than my taxes, right?” But like I said in the beginning when I was explaining what a projection is, you’re really just basically doing your tax return for the end of the year with the information that you have on hand. One of the lines right there is, “Hey, what’s your business income?” If you want to do a correct projection for your taxes, you’re going to actually have to do a projection for your business as well. Even though it might seem like it’s going a little bit too far, or you might not be able to connect those dots there, it’s something that it’s absolutely intertwined and something that you need to do for sure.

[0:31:51] TU: Last but certainly not least on our list. What would be a YFP episode if we didn’t talk about student loans? We’ve got student loans coming back online here in a couple months. A lot of questions that are coming up related to the restart of those payments. We’ve talked at length before about how tax and student loans can certainly be intertwined, depending on one’s loan repayment strategy. What is the value or potential value here, Sean, for someone that’s optimizing, or looking to optimize your student loan repayment strategy, and where the mid-year projection can play a role?

[0:32:24] SR: Yes, I can’t take any paternity leave anymore. Because when I do, it seems like they announced all these student loan changes, and everybody’s all excited and wants to talk to their CPA, and I’m sleeping on the couch with the kids and everything. So lesson learned there. But yes, absolutely. This is another example that I would say is a perfect example of where mirroring your tax strategy and working with a financial planner, or whoever manages the finances in your household and does the budgeting and everything is absolutely instrumental in making all this work together.

Yes. I mean, with student loans, there’s a lot of different things that can happen there. People have been asking me about, “Hey, so I’ve heard that you can file separately, or file jointly, or do these different things to maximize, or I should say, maximize savings, minimize my loan payments, or my spouse’s loan payments.” Yes. I mean, that is something that you can make that decision when you’re doing taxes to say, “Hey, am I going to file separately or am I going to file jointly?” But it all goes back to that idea of withholding and making sure that you were know how that works. Most of our clients who aren’t doing the student loan thing that are married, generally, are filing jointly. That’s what you’re told from the get go, right? “Hey, you get married, you file jointly, you get all the benefits of doing it, it’s the best way to do things.”

For someone to come and tell you, “Hey, actually, going forward, filing separately might be better for you.” Not only is that shocking for some folks to hear or like a complete change of what they’ve been told throughout the course of their life, but it also changes how they need to do withholdings and how they need to think about credits that they might have, whose return is that going to land on, and just one spouse withholds a little extra and recognize at the end of the year, they might get a refund that offsets their spouses tax bill or something like that.

There’s a lot of things that you want to make sure that again, even though you think that might be something you can make that call at the end of the year, just given all the different stuff going on with the loans, being on top of that now, and trying to minimize those surprises is always a better thing to do. To the extent you can mirror your tax strategy with your financial plan, it’s always just the best way to do things.

[0:34:31] TU: Great stuff. As always, Sean, as we wrap up this episode talking about the mid-year projection and the role it can play in some of the areas where it can effectively be utilized. Let me encourage folks to check out the resources and services that we have available, yfptax.com. We’ll link to that in the show notes. We have individual year-round tax planning led by Sean. As well as for those that do own a business, bookkeeping to fractional CFO, as well as some of the business tax planning that’s associated with that. Again, yfptax.com, you can learn more, you can schedule a call with Sean as a discovery call to learn more about that service, and whether or not that’s a good fit. Sean, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

[0:35:13] SR: Thanks, Tim. Talk to you soon.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:35:15] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide, and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 317: YFP Planning Case Study #7: Balancing Student Loans, a Wedding, Home Buying, & Saving for Retirement

Posted on July 20, 2023July 19, 2023 by Tim U

The team at YFP Planning discusses a case study that includes balancing student loans, a wedding, home buying, and saving for retirement.

Episode Summary

Welcome to our seventh installment of the case study series with Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP®, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA®, and Angel Melgoza, MS CFP®. During this episode, we are sharing a fictitious case study with you about an engaged couple in their 20s. We delve into their finances, expenses, and their goals before discussing their assets, savings, investments, liabilities, and debt. Angel and Kelly discuss why they would tackle student loans before anything else in this couple’s financial plan, how recent changes announced to student loans will impact their loan repayment strategy, how marriage, children, and other big life events affect financial planning, and the importance of emergency funds and savings. Finally, we talk about why wealth protection is so important and why we see clients struggle with that the most.

Key Points From the Episode

A warm welcome to today’s guests, Kelly Reddy-Heffner and Angel Melgoza.
Some details of the fictitious case study we will be discussing today.
The first thing they would tackle with regards to this fictitious case study.
How Biden’s bid to forgive some loans will affect the power of PSLF.
How financial planners work with clients on massive life events such as marriage and children.
The importance of having an established emergency fund and focusing on savings.
Why clients struggle most with wealth protection and why it’s imperative.

Episode Highlights

“Figuring out a strategy is key to the plan.” — Angel Melgoza [0:11:48]

“Our clients need cash flow because – the goal is to pay off – the loans – sooner rather than later.” — Angel Melgoza [0:11:58]

“Clients do need to be candid about their goals and one of our objectives is to help clients do what they want to do within those realistic [goals].” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner [0:24:09]

“Layers of life typically influence how much [wealth] protection is needed and how comfortable you feel with what you have.” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner [0:30:36]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] NH: What is up everyone? Welcome to our seventh installment of our case study series. I am joined by Angel Melgoza and Kelly Reddy-Heffner. Guys welcome back. We have a great case study to talk about today. How is everything going? Angel, Kelly, what’s going on in your worlds?

[INTERVIEW]

[0:00:18.2] AM: Trying to keep up with the heat, trying to stay cool here in Texas. We’ve hit triple digits though, making sure my AC is still working.

[0:00:25.9] NH: How about you, Kelly?

[0:00:27.5] KRH: Yes. I know, what’s up with all the weather and weird things? I am avoiding the outdoors due to smoke infestation and hoping some Canadian wildfires get put out soon.

[0:00:39.7] NH: Yeah, our very own Paul Boyle sent out some pictures of where he’s at in Ohio and some of the smoke that’s coming down from the Canadian fire. So definitely has some air quality issues here in Ohio and Angel, I am with you. I am not in Texas, our case study today is actually in Texas.

But our AC is on the fritz and right now, we are kind of battling with our home warranty people to try to figure that out. So hopefully, we get that figured out before the hot temperatures get here to Ohio but good to have you guys on, and looking forward to run in through the case study here.

So what we’re going to do is we’re going to kind of go through the case study and then obviously, if you’re listening on the podcast, we’re going to talk through this as best we can. If you’re watching this on YouTube, you’ll be able to kind of see the case study as we walk through it. So we’re really going through it.

This is a fictitious couple, they are an engaged couple living in Texas and Angel will kick us off, and then Kelly, we’ll kind of go through some of the goals. I’ll go through the balance sheet, and then we’ll just kind of look at this case study, what are some of the things that pop out to us, and how we would approach this from a planning perspective.

So, Angel, let me share my screen. So the people that are watching can see this. Let me see right here, share. So without further ado, Angel, why don’t you take us away as this pops up here?

[0:02:00.4] AM: Let me kick it up, these are my fellow Texans, right? Even though they’re a little fictitious. So we have Meghan Myers, who is aged 29, is a clinical pharmacist. Mathew Higgins, age 27, he’s an IT tech. You know, pretty typical age of current clients that we have, right?

Salaries for Megan, she’s earning USD 150,000 annually. Mathew’s earning USD 100,000 annually with supplemental income, USD 10,000. I’m guessing that may be some add-on work that they’re just taking on. Currently, of course, single. Filing single but they are engaged to be married.

See, they’re residents of Austin Texas, five hours north of me. Tell me you’re Texan by not telling me you’re Texan. You mentioned this in five hours and not by having on debate. So on a combined gross income front, they’re both earning, combined 260,000.

A little bit about their expenses, we try to divvy up fixed variable and poor savings as well. From expenses standpoint, the fixed expenses or about 32.50 monthly, USD 2,000 on variable, and about 1, 242 in just savings commitments that they have.

[0:03:11.3] NH: Awesome. Kelly, why don’t you go take us through Meghan and Mathew’s goals?

[0:03:15.6] KRH Sure, so I have reached out to do some financial planning because they’ve got a couple of things on the horizon. There are some student loans, which is not uncommon for our client base and we know there’s been a lot of chatter all summer about student loans and finally, some of the next steps are starting to unfold. So that’s often a prompt to reach out and start a conversation.

So they want to have a plan in place for Meghan, she does work for a qualifying 501(c)(3). So PSLF and a forgiveness strategy is part of the conversation. They are planning to get married so honeymoon, wedding expenses, we know one of the inflation items that’s still up is travel. So they’re planning a very fun honeymoon, it is good to plan ahead for that and as far and advance as possible.

They are looking to make sure that retirement’s on track and feel like they’re a little bit behind. Also, again, not an uncommon feeling. So that’s one thing we will want to dive into and see what that looks like, try to come up with a student loan plan that also matches a strategy for some of those other goals like wedding, marriage, and retirement and then of course, big things with life in general, often include that first home purchase.

We know that’s been an interesting environment as well, so we’ll kind of talk through what the home purchase environment looks like, what the resources are available to expand, and be knowledgeable about that big, that big purchase. Children, not too far down the road as well, and then of course, vehicles, open to the conversation about owning versus leasing but do identify having a new car need in the next couple of years as well.

[0:05:09.2] NH: Yeah, good stuff Kelly. Thanks for taking us through that. So I’m going to go through kind of the balance sheet, the net worth statement. So I’m going to start on the asset side. So they have about USD 5,000 in checking and joint checking. USD 20,000 in joint savings. When we look at their investment accounts, they both have 401(k)s. Meghan has about 10,000 in her current 401(k). Mathew about 15,000 they’re both in target date funds.

About 90% in equity, so probably goes 20, 60 target date funds that are out there. Currently, they’re both putting in 5% but Mathew actually gets a match up to 6%. Meghan’s is 5% so that’s a plan and opportunity right there. Meghan has a little bit of money in her HSA, USD 2,000. I mean, she’s contributing the max to that and Matthew does have access to an HSA because he’s got a high-deductible health plan but he’s not getting enrolled.

I believe Mathew has a Robin Hood account that has about USD 5,000 and he’s putting about USD 200 a month into that and then Meghan is not sure what to do with her old 401(k), which has about 5,000. So total assets of about 62,000. On the liability side, so these are the things that we owe, it’s a little bit of short-term debt there, about USD 5,000 on a credit card for Meghan, USD 3,000 on a credit card for Mathew.

They try to pay that off monthly, Mathew does have a car note that is USD 250,000 per month at an interest rate of 4%. So we’ve seen those obviously go up recently, so not terrible, right? In this environment and then the big, you know, monstrosity there I think are the loans. So she has about USD 425,000 in loans between her private and her federal loans. So total liabilities of 453,000.

So that puts their combined net worth at negative 391,000. So just to reiterate, they’re doing their own taxes now. So definitely, something that we would look at as we’re looking at the student loans, and then we do have a section here for like wealth protection. Meghan does have group life insurance coverage so two times her salary at USD 300,000. Mathew has one and a half times so $150,000.

They both have, you know, kind of a standard work term and long-term disability policies through their employers so own-Oc for two years and any-Oc after that and then professional liability, Meghan does have her own policy, which is good to see, and then no estate plan at this time, so definitely something to look at. So to kind of reiterate, Meghan hates the loans and wants to see them gone but is open to hear about PSLS.

So that would definitely be something that we would want to walk through and show her the math. Mathew again doesn’t have any loans, student loans. They are looking into stopping and funding the taxable account and put those dollars towards debt, and then as Angel mentioned, Mathew does have some contractor work that he makes on the side. So as we look at this, Kelly, what would you say is the first thing that you would tackle with this particular client as you review the case study here?

[0:08:08.7] KRH: Well, I’m going to assume that probably, the prompt was the student loans to get that plan in place. So there are a couple of little low-hanging fruit items but they all do work together like pieces of a puzzle to fit. So I guess that would be where I would start to just have an idea of what that monthly payment would be so that we can build the rest of the plan around that.

[0:08:35.9] NH: Yeah. I mean, I think, for a lot of our clients, you know, the tail that wags the dog for their financial planning is the student loans. So as the loans go, so does the rest of the plan. So if we’re talking about this amount of debt, I think again, it’s not necessarily a push to pay them off. But more of a push to have a plan to pay them off.

So I think you know, one of the things and I’ll skip over to this tab here and that kind of outlines the student loans, I think really with this particular client, you have lots of moving pieces here. You’re probably going to have a strategy that is related to the federal loans and then a strategy that is related to the private loans.

I think the thing that I often say is that the range of outcomes here with regard to the loans can be vast and if you’re looking at our tab here, the total amount paid, and this is kind of the rough numbers given the present student loan plans that are out there, is anywhere from 143,000 to 480,000.

So we really want to make sure that as we are approaching the loans, the idea is that we’re going through our process. So what we typically do and what we do for this client is that we’re going to inventory the loans and we typically do this through the NSLDS ugly text file that we have you retrieve.

With potentially, with private loans, look at the credit report. Sometimes, we look at promissory notes as well, and then from the inventory, now that we know where we’re at, we’re going to look at all of the different possibilities related to said loans, right? So we want to put the emotion that Meghan has with her loans with the math that supports it.

I’ve joked about this, Kelly and Angel, in the past, that I remember talking to a client that basically is working 20 hours at a for-profit job and 20 hours at a nonprofit job and didn’t qualify for PSLF because you essentially need to be 30 hours and they were like – and they had substantial debt. I don’t think it was up to this and now but they were asking like, “What was my advice for the student loans?” and I was like, “If I can push a broom in a nonprofit for 10 hours a week, I would do that” because it just unlocks a lot of the benefit that PSLF affords.

So the third part of this really is once we figure out what that strategy is, we want to optimize that, and that’s where you know, looking at the tax situation, looking at the investment strategy and the pre-tax situation, making sure you’re filing the taxes correctly, so I would obviously want them to talk to Shawn Richards, who is our director of tax and make sure that the tax situation is jiving, not just with the financial plan but specifically the student loans.

So that’s my take. Angel, would you add anything kind of in the student loan picture as you’re looking at this? Obviously, it’s a huge decision in terms of what they’re going to do and will hugely affect the balance sheet as they kind of start, you know, their careers and their lives together.

[0:11:44.9] AM: Absolutely, just like you said, just like Kelly said, that figuring out a strategy is key to the plan. What I would do also is really engage in budget. You know, we have to understand that our clients needs cash flow because if the goal is to pay off you know, the loans, more sooner rather than later but the cash flow just isn’t there, then we have to say, “Okay, what adjustments do we need to make as planners to our recommendation?” PSLFP in the strategy but the repayment plan may be a little bit different than what they may expect.

[0:12:19.5] NH: Yeah, and to that point, the B word, the budget word never goes away. I mean, even if you are looking at you know, a retirement picture, we kind of know, have to know like what we need to build out as a retirement paycheck. That all stems from the budget, right? So I think that is going to be consistent.

I think to the sheet, I don’t know if we outlined it, I think there was a budget for like two to three thousand or three to four thousand for Meghan to apply towards the loans, and the strategy might be a compromise in strategy where we are aggressive with the private loans, try to get them into an aggressive payoff strategy because obviously, we know that those loans are not going to be eligible for PSLF.

But then we are doing what we can to maximize forgiveness on the federal loans and that’s kind of where the two-prong approach to the loans really stems from. Kelly, if we stay with the student loans, obviously, we’re still waiting for and waiting and waiting and waiting for the Supreme Court to kind of rule on Biden’s effort to forgive some loans and we think that based on that decision, the president or the government will try to put a plan out there that might be more favorable to borrowers.

Can you kind of elaborate a bit on what you’ve heard or what you’ve read about that and kind of how that could potentially affect PSLF and the power of PSLF in the future as we come out of the pause here?

[0:13:43.1] KRH: Sure. So, great, Tim, you were referring to that you know, one time, 10 to USD 20,000 discharge decisions. So you know for some clients, that’s a substantial part of their loans but for many pharmacists who have accumulated student loan debt, it’s not quite as big of a percentage.

So the kind of flip side to that that you referenced is, we’re still waiting to hear about new income-based repayment plan like new repay that would have a different formula to calculate the monthly payment. The goal with the PSLF program want us to complete it and be in it for the 10 years, 120 estimated payments but also to pay the least amount over time, which is why you see that 143,000.

I can understand Meghan’s concern about a 10-year period to have the loans in existence but referencing Angel as well with the budget, you know if you have USD 3,000 and you’re putting 20 – like 1,400 to 2,300 towards the private loans. One, there’s only going to be so much left out of that budget but two, why would you pay extra if you qualify and are doing the work in the nonprofit?

But you need to get the loans in the correct position. So if that new repayment plan comes out and is very advantageous, the formula, making that payment lower, will create a lower amount total paid over time, which is a win. It does feel like we’re continuing across a couple of presidential administrations to make PSLF as easy as possible. So sometimes, clients still have concerns, “Will the program still be in place, will I qualify?”

All the answers point towards yes based on what we know, you know across a couple of different administrations, there have been you know, programs put in place to make it easier but you do have to put the loans in the right position. So we’ve seen these wavers as well and there’s still one more waver until the end of the year to pick up as many payments as possible. Pretty much the key being that you did work for the nonprofit during the timeframe.

But if you had odd forbearances, if you were in the wrong repayment plan, if you were in the wrong loan type but that’s some of the work that we do as part of the planning processes. Making sure that every loan is in the correct position to qualify and to not have that outcome when you get a surprise. There’s no surprises, you’re keeping track of your cumulative account. You know, there’s – that’s what the issue was in the past.

[0:16:44.2] NH: Yeah, and shout out to Tim Ulbrick who recently held a kind of impromptu webinar about student loans and you know, what’s beyond the pause, I think we had about 600 people register for that webinar and there were a lot of questions about PSLF and there’s still a lot of misnomers out there about the program and is it viable, is it not viable.

To your point Kelly, there has been things that in the past, would lead borrowers to question the longevity. I would say that everything that I could have read about that has always been for future borrowers. I mean, if you’re in the program, I think they would grandfather it in. This is my belief and I think if you’re reporting a strategy of forgiveness, you know there’s a good case, especially if they put out this new payment plan that your balance is going to grow.

So to kind of take that away, you know, retroactively I think would be catastrophic, and even with tax law, they typically will write things and that’s why we have so many versions and layers of tax law. I will point out as we’re showing the slide if it is a pay as you earn, the numbers that we’re showing on the screen is, “Hey, in ten years, you’re going to pay off 143,000.”

There is two assumptions here that are, I think are wrong, one is if let’s say Meghan’s been at work for the last two years or maybe it’s the last year, she’s already a year in. So we’re projecting 10 years as if this were starting right now, so she potentially already has 12 to 24 months that are counted or potentially counted if we do the right things and then I think the other thing is that we’re showing a first monthly payment of a USD 1,080, which could also be a lot less given a new repayment plan.

So this again, so many advisors out there still to this day as I talk to a lot of prospects will say, “Hey, I’m working with an adviser and they say don’t worry about the loans, it will figure themselves out” which is the worst advice that you can give to many pharmacists that are dealing with six figures worth of debt or they’ll do a, “Hey, pay the highest interest rate off or pay the lowest balance.”

That quite frankly is subpar advice, so because the spectrum of outcomes is so why with regard to what you actually are paying out of your pocket for the loans, you want to make sure that you get a professional advice on this because it’s that impactful. So guys, let’s set the loans aside for a hot second and talk about the other parts of their plan.

Angel, obviously with wedding, honeymoon, first home, kiddo in the next two years, car in the next five years, how does a planner work with a client to kind of wade through all of these things that obviously are huge life events but obviously, from a planning perspective, hugely important to kind of road map? Walk me through how you would approach Meghan and Mathew in that instance.

[0:19:40.0] AM: Sure. I mean, I think firstly as we address the student loans, the second thing looking at their budget, what’s left over after we define a good repayment plan for them, and as a planner, we want to make sure that we are being very upfront, real, and having real conversations as to expectations, right? The last thing we’d want is to take out more debt when we don’t need to.

[0:20:04.7] NH: That’s right.

[0:20:06.2] AM: Just going through what their expenditures are, what’s left over, and coming up with a comfortable budget for all these things, you really can’t plan them for an additional family member but at least, you know jeffing up what does that look like on a nationwide kind of average scale. Typically, when I am working with younger individuals I like to throw in an extra two, three grand a month for raising a child.

You know, that is very subjective but that is very much kind of my flat conservative rule of thumb.

[0:20:37.5] NH: Yeah. I mean, I am a big believer in if I’m breaking this down with a client, and Kelly I’d love to hear your thoughts on this too, I’m a big believer in saying, “Okay, you know wedding, honeymoon, how much is that? Is that paid for? What other sources of income or what is the sources of savings for that?” “First home, okay, is it within the next year, the next two years? So what are we looking at for a down payment?”

Obviously, I want to put them in front of someone like Nate Hedrick, to help with an agent and finding an agent or even Tony Umholtz to look at First Horizon and potentially a PharmD loan and make sure that that is positioned and then you know, yeah, first child in the next two years, what does that look like from a daycare expense or just hospital bills, who’s and where are we funding that and then car.

You know, if that is a five-year, so kind of backwards plan into this and you know we talk about purpose-based investing. You know, kind of by proxy, I’m a big fan of purpose-based savings, so I would love to see a bucket for a house, I would love to see a bucket for a car, I would love to see a bucket for kiddos. Like I was joking around with someone, we have an ally account that is the kid’s account and the sub-accounts are Olivia, my daughter, Liam, my son, and Benji, our dog.

So, Benji, you know for his grooming and vet bills and things like that, Olivia for swim and other things like that. So it allows Shay and I to kind of break these expenses down when we throw all of these things against the wall, Kelly, it’s overwhelming, right? It’s just a lot of things one right after the other. So walk me through kind of like how you would approach that, how you would select buckets, how you would determine like, “Okay, overlaying the student loans” and maybe that’s where the student loans were like, “Well, maybe we need a little bit of extra discretionary income and go out.”

Not five years in the private loan but maybe 10 years to free up some income for us to do some things, so walk me through that in terms of the savings perspective.

[0:22:35.0] KRH: Right, because once we have like one set of numbers with the student loan, you want to build out, as you said Tim, those buckets but you need to run some estimates. So typically, you know I probably would start with the house but clients do need to be candid about their goals and one of our objectives is to help clients do what they want to do within those realistic like giving pros and cons and, “Well, that might take a little bit longer if you want to do it at that amount.”

So certainly it would be up to them, what the priorities are in terms of wedding, house, preparing for a child, and that new car but giving some context to those decisions. So like if the new house is in a year, you’d be looking at some estimates if you bought a USD 250,000 home versus a 450,000. Right now in the current environment, it’s super fun to do the two interest rates like this crazy but you know, are people still able to buy homes?

Yes, but you need to know what that’s going to look like in terms of a mortgage payment but then, I also like to run the numbers at like a 4% so in case the environment changes in the next year, it makes a big difference in the monthly payment. Are you doing a 3% down, a PharmD loan, or are you doing 20% down, something in between? So kind of run a couple of those numbers you can see a range.

You know, if this is what you want to do on the lower end or on the upper end, this is the amount per month in a year timeframe to do it and to get to the down payment. Definitely, childcare, one of the biggest parts of a child expense. So making sure that we have a good holding place in the budget for that. Looping back to the house, you know, it seems obvious but doing that amount for a year and knowing you can do it for a mortgage amount makes a lot of sense.

Like if your rent’s a thousand, you want to buy a house and the mortgage is 2,500, typically that USD 1,500 difference, can you consistently put that away for a year, one for the down payment but two, that’s becoming your new average monthly expense. So like if you can do it for a year that feels pretty good that you’re going to be able to sustain it and continue it. So yeah, putting some context, some hard numbers knowing they’re not going to be to the penny.

But this gets you or I say, we can calculate to the penny but there is going to be lots of things that happen in between, you know, anything. A job change, a new dog, all the things you know that help influence that monthly budget, you know, we need to have a placeholder for.

[0:25:33.5] NH: That’s right and I think one of the things that we haven’t really discussed that I think is important to discuss, you know typically when we talk about a budget, we’re always looking at where can we potentially cut expenses and things like that. The thing I would really dig in with Mathew, in particular, is, “Hey, you have supplemental income of USD 10,000, is there a way for us to grow the topline income that’s coming in?”

So can we push that 10,000 to USD 25,000 next year? Meghan, you know, if we do have pretty hairy audacious goals, are there ways for you to also make additional dollars by picking up extra shifts or whatever? So I think sometimes we always look at the expense side of the ledger and I want to grow the pie and make sure that’s looking healthy and we have other levers that we can potentially pull.

Angel, let’s shift to the wealth-building stuff real quick. They’re kind of just starting out, they had this one old 401(k), they’re in some target date funds in their current 401(k), we don’t have many IRAs established, which I don’t know if I would necessarily do that now. Mathew has a taxable account of USD 5,000, which again, I would try to apply like when we’re asking questions about, “Hey, how are we going to fund the home payment, home down payment, or the car?” That’s where I want to start drawing those lines but how would you approach the wealth-building portion of their financial plan with kind of the facts that we have?

[0:26:50.5] AM: With some of the facts that we have, wealth building, and what I’d like to look at first is, “Do you have an established emergency fund?” because we all know that things do happen and stuff. I want to make sure that our clients are prepared for that. More on the, “Are you on track with savings?” things of that nature. I would definitely start off by looking at the 401(k)s, making sure that they’re at least maxing out the amount that they would receive an employer match.

From looking here, I believe that Mathew’s more deferring 5% but the match is 6%, maybe trying to get him up to that 6% is the next step for him. On the HSA fronts, it looks like they don’t put any money into an HSA. I think that is a very good tool for young healthy couples, right? That you traditionally just have your physicals, your checkups, and maybe a couple of doctor visits because of a cold or flu, what have you, and making sure that those are maxed out.

You end up saving on the payroll tax front, you end up saving on the federal income tax front, and to the point of going back to the student loans, Meghan can also reduce her adjusted gross income and that will even save her on the back end to know but yeah, to your point on the taxable account, seeing what’s that account for, right? You have a lot of goals that you want to achieve and maybe putting some purpose behind it.

We have it here listed as a play account but to me on a scale, if we have a pyramid of what’s important, play accounts would be at the tip. That’s the cherry on top for me, right? I would definitely want to address the menial things like again, your emergency fund. Are you putting into your 401(k)s and are your current savings do they have a purpose?

[0:28:33.5] NH: Yeah, that’s right and I think to circle back, I think Meghan is contributing the max HSA even though it is not showing, it is just showing in text there and she has about USD 2,000. I’m assuming it’s in cash and not invested. I think the discussion I would have about that is, “Are we planning on using this for the birth of a child or do we see this as like a long kind of that stealth IRA?” and maybe it’s, “We’re going to use it for the birth of a child then afterwards, build a backup and then it will be a self-IRA” or something to that effect.

You know sometimes, it is good to be able to cash flow health expenses when you get to that point. So for the current 401(k)s, I think you know looking to make sure that those target date funds, Kelly, look good. You know, often times we like to get out of the target date funds because they are a little bit more expense and basically pick the allocation ourselves, and then probably the last thing that we haven’t really talked to is just what do we do with the 401(k), the old 401(k)?

Do we roll that over to a rollover IRA for YFP to manage on behalf of Meghan or do we move that over to a current 401(k) to be able to assess that? Let’s chat Kelly, really quickly about the wealth protection stuff. My initial gut on this is probably, they’re probably okay at this point in time and I would want them to focus on the debt and wealth building but probably phase two, phase three might be looking more closely at the wealth protection stuff.

What’s your thought on that? Do you kind of differ in your opinion or would you say, “Hey, let’s kind of get through some of these other things that are on fire and then kind of pivot to life disability, estate plan” et cetera?

[0:30:10.0] KRH: Right. I mean, certainly the wealth protection piece, you know as much as some of the other things feel overwhelming and the volume is to tackle this actually is probably the area where our clients struggle the most just to see like how much to prioritize and what they really want to have and to figure that out. So right, I would agree, you know layers of life typically influence how much protection is needed and how comfortable you feel with what you have.

I do like that Meghan has enough coverage to cover her private student loans. That’s an area that’s a bit grey depending on the loan’s officer. So she’s got that covered, so really we try to look at liability need like if there’s something that needs paid off, that would be a big one. From there, we do, do that as part of our planning to do a very thorough assessment, see what they have, but I would agree.

You know, the estate planning we can do some conversation and work on that during the protection meeting like checking your beneficiaries, making sure the titling is correct on accounts. That’s one layer ahead of getting a will and formal documents in place. So yeah, I would say that something that we work on, you know, as we move through the financial plan, it is important but the amounts of coverage do look fairly reasonable.

I probably would address at some point the own occupation for two years on those disability policies. Our gold standard is typically to recommend own policies for clients in that area but again, they do have coverage. That would be just a note that I would just check into further.

[0:32:08.8] NH: Yeah, I think in this regard, what I’m doing as I am going through the wealth protection part of the financial planning is I’m looking at what the baseline coverage is and I’m planting seeds. I’m saying, “Hey, it probably makes sense in the future to look at your own life insurance policy. It probably makes sense in the future to look at your own disability policy. It probably makes sense in the future to have an estate plan that’s drawn up by an attorney.”

You know, I think these are typically most important and I say this a lot when you have a spouse, a house, and mouths to feed and we know that Meghan and Mathew are kind of treading in that direction. I think anybody needs an estate plan if they’re a human and they want to kind of, you know, their care and be able to pay their bills if they’re unable to but I think the ante is upped when you have other people that are kind of relying on you for their livelihood and we want to make sure that we take care of the family.

So in my mind, I’m kind of planting those seeds that say, “Hey, this is important now, it’s going to be more important in the future. So let’s take steps when we kind of get the dust cleared and settled on the student loans and the investments and things like that, a budget can make moves here in the future.” So great stuff guys, I really appreciate the conversation. I feel like we could go on and on about this particular client.

So thank you for kind of going through this with me in the seventh edition of the case study series. If you are out there listening to this and you’re thinking, “Hey, this sound vaguely familiar to my situation” don’t be shy, reach out to us, book a discovery meeting, and you know, let us know if we would potentially be a good fit to work together. So Angel and Kelly, thank you once again and looking forward to doing this next time.

[0:33:47.9] AM: Thank you for having us.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:33:51.8] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 315: An Interview with Rachel Cruze (YFP Classic)

Posted on July 6, 2023July 3, 2023 by Tim U

Know Yourself, Know Your Money with New York Times Bestseller Rachel Cruze

Rachel Cruze discusses her new book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money.

About Today’s Guest

Rachel Cruze is a two-time #1 national best-selling author, financial expert, and host of The Rachel Cruze Show. Since 2010, Rachel has served at Ramsey Solutions, where she teaches people to avoid debt, save money, budget, and how to win with money at any stage in life. She’s authored three best-selling books, including her latest, Know Yourself, Know Your Money: Discover WHY You Handle Money the Way You Do and WHAT to Do About It. Follow Rachel on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube or online at rachelcruze.com.

Summary

National best-selling author and financial expert, Rachel Cruze, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss her newest book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money: Discover WHY You Handle Money the Way You Do and WHAT to Do About It. Tim and Rachel delve into various portions of the book, highlighting specific lessons and concepts relatable to pharmacists, parents, and anyone interested in learning more about themselves and their relationship to their finances.

Rachel walks listeners through “Discovering Your Personal Money Mindset,” including how we form our ideas about money and how we learn to handle money as we do through “Your Childhood Money Classroom.” Rachel goes through the four money classrooms. She reminds us that regardless of the quadrant that you grew up in, you can choose your quadrant from this point forward. Rachel outlines seven money tendencies, how they not only impact your financial picture, and how these tendencies affect interpersonal relationships with significant others. Tim and Rachel share an earnest discussion about money fears, detailed in Chapters 5 and 6 of the book. They close with an eye-opening discussion on part 2 of the book, focusing on the “Power of Contentment.” Rachel shares how contentment changes your motivation for spending. She explains a practical exercise for determining what brings you joy and demonstrates how learning where and how you find happiness allows you to focus your spending on what is truly important to you.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Rachel, welcome to the show.

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s really an honor to have you on, and I’m excited to talk about your latest book, “Know Yourself, Know Your Money.” And for those listening in the YFP community that are already familiar with the Ramsey baby steps, I think this book does an excellent job covering much of the mindset, the behaviors, the beliefs that are the foundation to ensuring your goals and dreams become a reality. So Rachel, in Part 1 of the book, which is “Discovering Your Personal Money Mindset,” you talk in Chapter 1 about your childhood money classroom. And you make a strong argument that this is the first step in understanding why we handle money the way that we do and that “there are really two ways we learned about money: what our parents communicated emotionally and what they communicated verbally.” Tell us more about these two modes of communication and why it is so important to dig into our past for some honest reflection before we chart our path forward.

Rachel Cruze: Yes, well whenever you talk to any great psychologist or counselor or therapist, they will tell you that so much of who you are today is from how you grew up, whether that’s coping mechanisms, defense strategies, all of that. Learning to kind of survive really in your childhood is something that’s engrained in all of us. And so when I was writing the book, I wanted to go in and say, “OK, I want to understand why we handle money the way we do.” Like you said, it’s not just the what — you know, we talk about the how a lot around Ramsey Solutions, how to get out of debt, how to invest, how to refinance, how to give, but I wanted to answer that question, why? Why do we do the things we do? And it always stems back to that classroom that you lived in, which is your home growing up. And there’s a lot of lessons in those classrooms that we grew up in that you want to unlearn. As an adult, you’re like, I don’t want to take that with me. And there’s a lot of lessons that you do want to take with you. And so being able to just pinpoint, hey, my money habits, the way I view money, part of that is because of my environment growing up. And so those two modes of communication, like you said, the verbal, what is said out loud, and then that emotional state, is really important. So as I was writing the manuscript for this book, you know, kind of coming across these two things, and I remember thinking, oh, OK, it’s like a quadrant. God gave me a graph to explain this, and I’m so happy because it ends up being this four quadrant where that verbal communication and emotional communication intersect. And it ends up really showing these four different money classrooms. And so for you to be able to identify OK, I grew up in Classroom No. 1 or Classroom No. 2 there, and to understand that really will show you why you handle money the way you do today.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and this was really a gut check for me, Rachel, as a father of four young boys, you know, I feel like I do a decent job in communicating verbally about money. It’s something I talk about daily, but it was a gut check on like the emotional part and what are some of the messages that we’re sending to our kids? And so part of this as I read it is unlearning in part or reflecting upon your past but also for those that are out there that are parents, thinking about some of the money scripts and messages that we’re sending in our own homes as well.

Rachel Cruze: That’s right. Yeah. And even that nonverbal, you know, in the classroom, Classroom 1 is the anxious money classroom. And that’s where it’s verbally closed but emotionally stressed. Classroom 2 is the unstable money classroom where it’s emotionally stressed but verbally open, so it’s lots of conflict, lots of fighting. That Classroom 3 is the unaware money classroom, which is emotionally calm but it’s verbally closed. So it’s not talked about, but it’s also not felt. Like it’s a stress point, so you don’t really even — your head is kind of in the sand, if you will, about money until you leave home and realize, oh wow, there’s a lot to do with this subject. And then Classroom 4 is that secure money classroom. And that’s where it’s verbally open but emotionally calm. So that fourth classroom, kind of like what you’re saying, I really wanted the readers to think about their current nuclear family to say, OK, if I do have kids or if I want kids in the future, how am I going to do this on the verbal and emotional scale? And so moving to that Classroom 4 is really important for people because the thing about that is you don’t have to be a perfect parents by any means to be in that classroom. You also don’t have to have a ton of money, right? You don’t have to be like a millionaire to be in that. It’s these habits that you create. And what’s funny is when you’re emotionally calm about money, usually there’s a plan around it, usually there’s a level of healthy control. There’s some safety nets in place like an emergency fund, you know, there’s these habits that you do in the how-to of money that set you up to create that emotionally stable home around this subject where for so many people it’s not safe, it’s not emotionally calm, it is very stressed. And when you look at the statistics of the average American today, I’m like, yeah, I would be stressed too, right? Living paycheck-to-paycheck, having $16,000 of credit card debt, all of it. So I understand why that is, but getting yourself in a place financially where you’re more under control, you’re naturally going to bring in that emotional side in your household, which is amazing. And then the verbal side you pointed out too is talking about it. And I think it’s less taboo today than it was even 20 years ago. I think parents engage their kids in more conversations maybe than the Boomers did for their kids, you know, like when you look at the different generational differences. But again, engaging it and showing the mechanics but also the other side of it of hey, here’s what contentment looks like. Here’s what generosity does to your heart and your viewpoint in life. I mean, you know, bringing in those hard and soft subjects of money are important to talk to about with kids.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I love, Rachel, how you take folks through this journey of understanding these four different classrooms you mentioned in the quadrant. And it can be heavy to kind of walk through and reflect on some of this. But you end Chapter 3 where you talk about calm money classrooms, you end Chapter 3 by reassuring us that our childhood does not define us. You say, “Your childhood may have given you a rocky start, but it doesn’t make or break you, regardless of the household you grew up in. You get to choose your quadrant from this point forward.” What an awesome view, right? We learn from the past, but we’ve got an opportunity to chart a new path going forward.

Rachel Cruze: That’s right, yeah. I mean, there’s so much hope and I think even in the money piece of my messages that I communicate with people is like no matter what mistakes you’ve made, yeah, maybe you do have a ton of debt. So on a more logistical side, yeah, maybe you have a deeper hole to dig out of than the person next to you, but no matter what, you get to make the decisions to say, no, I actually want to change how I view something or the habits around money. And the same is true with your classroom. Some people, a lot of people I would say, grew up in a hard environment when it came to money with their parents. But yet you don’t have to just mirror that story, right? You can take charge of your life to say, you know what, I’m not going to sit here and bash my parents, but I’m also not going to defend them. I’m going to just tell the truth of what happened, and here’s the truth. OK, there’s some good stuff, and there’s some bad stuff. And the bad stuff I can forgive, and I’m going to move forward though to choose something different for my life and my family. And I think it’s powerful. And I think we have to do that in all of parenting. I’m not a parenting expert by any means, but I’m like, you know, my husband and I have said, OK, this is our family. What are we going to choose to do in this? And so the money pieces is part of that.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And give yourself some grace along the way, right?

Rachel Cruze: That’s right. Oh, absolutely. There’s hope in grace. Absolutely.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Rachel, in Chapter 4, which is “Your Unique Money Tendencies,” you introduce seven major money tendencies. And we’re not going to go through all of these, but I’ll read them off quickly. And those seven are save or spender, nerd or free spirit, experiences or things, quality or quantity, safety or status, abundance or scarcity, and planned giving or spontaneous giving. And I want to break down one of these further that I suspect our audience has heard of before, and that is the concept of being a nerd or being a free spirit. And so this as one example of these different tendencies, tell us more about the difference between these two and why each really has its own benefits and challenges and we want to think about these on a scale.

Rachel Cruze: Yes. Well, when I did these seven tendencies, I didn’t want one to be right or wrong because I feel like that can happen a lot. You know, it’s just no, these are naturally where you’re bent, and if you go to the extremes of any of these tendencies, that can get unhealthy. Kind of that middle ground is to say, ‘OK, I’m naturally bent towards this, but I can actually have a little bit of both,’ which makes you I think more well-rounded, honestly. But yeah, the nerd and free spirit, that was kind of a phrase that was coined, two terms that were coined by my dad, honestly, about probably 20 years ago talking about the budget specifically and how I make it a little bit more broad in just the idea of how you view money, but one of you — or if you’re married, usually opposites attract. But you either lean toward a nerd, which is the one that yeah, you’re just organized, you probably have Excel spreadsheets all over the place, you love to budget, you love to feel in control, you know what’s going on, you keep up with everything, numbers are your friends, it feels great to know what’s going on. And so that nerd is naturally going to be bent one way towards money, which obviously is more the control factor. Sometimes more the scarcity mindset, they want to just know what’s going on. And then the free spirit is on the opposite end, and that’s the person that is more hey, everything is going to work out. It’s fine, it’s fine. A budget to them, it feels restrictive. It feels like there’s no fun in life if I have to live on a budget, that means I have to say no a lot, and I don’t want to say no. I want to say yes because you only live once, you know? It’s a little bit more of that mentality. And what’s funny is I actually lean more free spirit in who I am, so this money stuff and budgeting, some of it was hard for me to say, OK, I have to learn this because I don’t have to become a nerd to be good at money. That’s not the reason behind this. But it is to say, “Hey, there are qualities that I need to pick up,” because if I’m a free spirit on the extreme of the free spirit side, I’m probably going to be broke. I’m probably going to have lots of debt because I’m not keeping up with anything, I’m just doing what I want in the moment, what feels good. And that’s not wise. But I also don’t have to absolutely love numbers like my husband. He is more of the nerd. Like I mean, he has spreadsheets. He’s like all about the five-year goal and what’s going in each month, looking at the mutual funds. I mean, he just loves it. And I’m like, I’m the money person that talks about this every day, and I don’t love it that much. Like I’ll do the budget and track transactions, but that’s about it. So again, it’s just pinpointing hey, here’s where I lean, here’s places I can learn, and here’s some really great things about that side of the nerd or great things about the free spirit. And then if you’re married, again, it’s good to call that too because I think in marriage, money can be such a difficult subject. But to be able to say, “OK, you’re not my enemy in this. You’re just more of a nerd in that or you’re more of a free spirit, so how can we come together and work as a team?”

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, you do a great job in the book going through each one of these sets that I mentioned and not only what they are and some of the differences and where that balance might but also some great exercises at the end of the chapter where folks can reflect upon those, and I think it would be great conversation starters as well for couples that are going through this together. Rachel, Chapters 5 and 6, it gets real, right? You start to talk about your money fears, six of them in total. And I want to pick apart the fear that you say is the most common one you see, which is not having enough. And essentially, this is if something bad happens, the fear that I won’t survive financially. And as you talk about in the book, this could be job loss, this could be a huge health bill, this could be a major house issue. And really, the list can go on and on of all of the things that might go wrong. And it could be a today thing, a today fear, or it could be a future fear. For example, will I have enough when it comes time to retirement? And I think this quickly becomes overwhelming and for many can become paralyzing. And as you say in the book, the “what if” question, it’s a scary question. And so tell us more here, how can we face this fear head-on without it ultimately paralyzing us to take action with our financial plan?

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, when we talk about fear — for this book, I did a lot of research around it because usually fear is just seen as a 100% bad thing, right? Face your fears, don’t let your fear hold you back, all that. Well, some of that, yes, is very true. I remember talking to Dr. Chip Dodd about this, and I loved what he said because he said, fear can actually be a gift. Fear is your body’s response that you are in need of something. Now, again, when that fear becomes paralyzing or turns into anxiety, like any of that, we don’t want that. But just that initial fear, OK, what is that telling you? Because it actually could be telling you something that you need to listen to to diminish that fear. So for a lot of people — and gosh, we just walked through 2020, right, which was just the craziest year I think of all of our lives, around this. And so you could say, OK, my fear is that if something happens, am I going to be OK? If we lose a job, am I going to be OK? Well, you look at your situation and again, just pulling in just stats that I know that 78% of Americans live paycheck-to-paycheck, the average car payment is around $548, the average family owes $16,000 just on their credit cards. So you put all that together and if something happens, are you going to be OK? Well yeah, you’re going to be able to literally survive. But financially, you’re going to be in a mess. You’re going to be in a mess if you don’t have another paycheck to pay these bills. So let’s look at the reality of what’s going on. Again, it’s not to paralyze you, but it’s to say, OK, what can I do now to get in better control of my money? Am I budgeting? Am I living on less than I make? Do I have an emergency fund? And do I have a goal that I’m working towards that actually puts my money towards something, right? Am I giving? Like am I doing these things? And for a lot of people, if they say, “No, I’m not,” hopefully it’s a little bit of a motivator. I don’t think fear has to be the only motivator, but I think it’s a good jumpstart to it of OK, let’s get some things in place so that we can say, OK, maybe you look up in 24, 36 months, three years down the road, and you’re completely debt-free, you have a fully-funded emergency fund of 3-6 months worth of expenses. You now have retirement planned out, you know how much you’re putting in each month, like you actually have a plan in place. And what caused that may have been that fear of wow, if I lose one paycheck, this entire thing just implodes is what it feels like. So again, let that fear drive you. And again, it’s a big one, that fear of am I going to be OK? And what’s interesting is prior to 2020, it was women’s top financial fear. So for some men, it was oh, there’s a dream that I have that I can’t get to because of my life or you fill in the lank. But women day-in and day-out, consistently when surveyed, it was am I going to be OK? And then I think you fast forward to 2021, I don’t have hard data for this, but I would say a lot of people now are in that bucket.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Rachel Cruze: Because of what we walked through. So again, I want this fear to not turn into something that’s super unhealthy, but I want it to be a little bit of that jumpstart to say OK, is this rational? OK, maybe it is. So maybe I need to change some things. But then also I’ll tell you this too: It could be irrational. I mean, my husband and I have been doing this plan for 11 years of marriage, so we are, we’re debt-free — I mean, we’ve done it to the t. And it works, No. 1, I can say that. I’m the proof. But No. 2, even during the pandemic, I had a few nights where I went to bed thinking, oh my gosh, are we going to be OK? But what allowed me a little bit to have that safety is realizing No. 1, black-and-white on paper, the numbers, yes, we’re going to be fine because we’ve been doing this, we’ve been diligent. But also No. 2, Rachel, it’s a little bit of a wakeup call for me emotionally to say why am I so fearful that this foundation that I’ve set, this financial foundation, that if it was shook, who am I? Right? And it made me do a gut check, honestly, to say OK, where is my identity? Where have I been putting value? Because money, while we need to be responsible with it and we want to be able to do things like get out of debt and build wealth and change our family tree and be generous to others, all of these wonderful things, money is not our God. And if it’s the thing day-in and day-out that you’re looking toward, it’s not going to fulfill you. And I kind of got to a place where I had to do a gut check on myself last year to think, OK, who am I emotionally on that side, right, if that foundation is shaken? So again, this fear conversation I think is a really important one to have. And I think it’s a really good one to have.

Tim Ulbrich: I do too. And I think it can be motivating for the reasons that you mentioned. Our listeners have heard me say many times about really building a strong financial foundation and think about what the building blocks of that are. But there are challenges that can be had in the security of that foundation and what you’re ultimately putting that security in. So I think a great reminder. And this section of the book, as I mentioned, really powerful. You talked through several other fears. We’re just scratching the surface here. You talk about the fears of not realizing your dreams, of not being capable, external fears, past mistakes, repeating the past, you know, all types of things that we want to be considering. So I hope folks will pick up a copy of the book and check that out. Rachel, Part 2 of the book, “Discovering What You Do With Money and Why,” you connect the information the reader learns in Part 1 so that it can then be applied to their personal situation. And one thing that stood out to me in this section was the concept that you talk about, the power of contentment. And you say that “contentment is a process that changes your motivation for spending money.” Tell us more about that.

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, contentment I think is a huge piece of this financial conversation that has to be in place because money is like a magnifying glass. It makes you more of what you already are. And so if you are a discontent person and you think — and it’s all of us, you know, at different times in life for sure and maybe different parts of the day too, so I’m not speaking out of that I have found the answer to it all — but realizing though if we live in a discontentment state, which usually results in OK, if I can just make x amount of money, if I can just buy this kind of car, if I can go on that kind of vacation, if I live in this kind of house, then everything is going to be fixed. And we think that in our culture in our country that our problems are fixed by stuff. And that discontentment is just magnified, and the problem is that if you build wealth and you actually have the money to go and get these things, you get the things, and it doesn’t fulfill you and you’re discontent again with just more stuff around you. And so there’s that heart piece that I think is important to keep in check. And for me, it’s calling out to people, OK, what are the things in your life that money — there’s not a price tag towards. And this was kind of my journey even just last year, I thought, Rachel, what are the things in my life that I can’t pay for. Well, that’s a great marriage, having children that I am trying to raise in the best way possible, my health, my spiritual walk, my family, you know, my friendships, like relationships. So kind of mapping those things out and realizing OK, if I can invest my time and my energy in those things, life is so much richer, right? And again, not that it doesn’t mean you can’t have a great house or go on a great vacation. My husband and I just got back on Saturday from a fun trip that him and I just took, you know, for a few nights. It was fantastic. It was wonderful. But those things don’t fulfill you, right? It’s the fact that I was with my husband. And we got to have that time together. That is what was fulfilling. And so all of that I think stems to that contentment, and that contentment piece, again, I think is — we tried to find it in stuff, and I really push people to find it in things that money can’t buy.

Tim Ulbrich: My favorite part of the book, Rachel, is that you make a really good case for the importance of connecting saving and dreaming. Saving and dreaming. And we talk a lot on this show about having a strong financial why. And this chapter reminded me of that concept. You say that, “Not having any savings is a worrying sign for two big problems. The first problem is that your house isn’t in order. You’re not prepared. But not having savings is also a worrying sign of a second problem: that you’re not tuned into your dreams.” What do you mean by this?

Rachel Cruze: Well, when I did this part of the book, you know, I wanted to kind of walk through OK, why do we spend the way we spend? Why do we save the way we save? Why do we give the way we give? And so when I was in that saving section, I was like, OK, why do we save the way we save? And I’m like, well, what are the things we save for? What are the — I’m like, well, it’s because we have these dreams. Is it to build a house one day? Is it to be debt-free? You know, whatever it is, and that gives purpose behind our dollars. It gives us purpose to say OK, when the money comes in, I actually know where it’s going. It’s going to something that I value in life. And that’s what makes things rich, right? That’s what brings joy. And people that just live life and they’re not intentional, it’s just kind of that paycheck-to-paycheck, I go to work, I get paid, I just keep doing the same thing. And you look up in five years and not much has changed about your life, I bet your savings hasn’t changed either because you don’t have a goal, you don’t have something you’re saving towards. And so that dreaming portion, it is, it’s so, so critical. I mean, any great book motivator that shows you how to be better in certain parts of your life, goals are always in there. Those dreams are always in there. And so there’s the short-term dreams, have something that you’re working towards five years and less so that you can get to it quickly. And then have those dreams that are five years or more that you say, OK, out there in the future, what do I want? And then also have shared dreams. If those two dreams don’t coincide with your spouse, then have something you guys are working at together. I mean, all of this is going to be a partnership if you’re married. But I think having those dreams together is so crucial where yes, we are individuals, so my husband may have a dream to go on a hunting trip, you know, to South Dakota. That’s not my dream. That’s great if that’s his dream. It’s not my dream. So what are the dreams that we have together? And so all of that, it gives you such motivation. And it was funny, that trip we just went on last week, we had an agenda. We had like four things we wanted to talk about. But one of them was we literally set our financial dreams. One of ours was to build a house, and we moved in November of ‘19. And honestly, since then, I mean, we went through 2020, which was crazy. Now, we’re kind of on the other side saying, OK, what do we want? Besides just a number, what are the things that we’re shooting for? And just having those conversations, it’s so fun. I mean, it just brings life to you or again, if you’re married, to your marriage, just to have things that you’re working towards together. Again, it gives you purpose. It gives you purpose to save. And if there’s not purpose to save, you’re more than likely not going to do it.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think shared dreams, it’s so important. Great wisdom. I think especially for folks that are in the weeds and maybe frustrated with the budget or feeling like a goal is taking forever, I think some of those dreams can lift folks together and get excited behind the vision, you know, especially while there’s other things that are happening along the way. Rachel, I want to wrap up our time by talking about giving. And you make the case that giving is ultimately the antidote to fear. Why is that the case?

Rachel Cruze: There’s something about living life with an open hand where you say, “You know what, I’m actually going to give things,” because I think the opposite of that is that closed fist mentality where you’re going to just control everything and it’s all yours and it’s just all right here, and there’s a level of that that just, it gets exhausting. And there’s not joy in that. And so when you actually open your hand and give, which sounds counterintuitive, right, if I’m trying to put money towards a dream or I’m trying to put money towards getting out of debt or building an emergency fund, but I’m giving some of it away, like that just seems so backwards where in fact what it does is it fuels you. Because when you live a life that you move on the spectrum from being selfish where it is all about you to selfless where you actually see other people and you see OK, the needs that are out there, things that your money can do, even if it’s not a lot of money, but using it as a tool to help people, it changes you. I mean, it really, really changes you. And there’s nothing like it. It’s cliche to say, but it’s true. The joy that you get from giving is unlike any other joy that you can have in life. Like it gives something to you, to your soul. Because I think we were created to be givers. And when you’re living in that, it changes your perspective. And I also think selfless people have a better quality of life. I think they’re better spouses, better parents, better coworkers, better friends. You know, people that actually care about other people, it’s an amazing thing, but I think it does, it gives you a quality of life that’s so deep. And I think that it can be — obviously you can give all different kinds of ways, but your money is one of those. And when you live that life with an open hand, it does something to your soul that I think is so, so healthy in a world that is so self-centered.

Tim Ulbrich: Rachel, great, great stuff. Where is the best place that our community can go to connect with you and learn more about your work?

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, you can go to RachelCruze.com. The book “Know Yourself, Know Your Money” is anywhere books are sold. And I’m also — I have a podcast, “The Rachel Cruze Show” you can check out as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So to the YFP community, make sure to pick up your copy of “Know Yourself, Know Your Money,” available really anywhere, also available at RamseySolutions.com. We’ve just scratched the surface during this interview. I’m confident you’ll gain so much more from digging into the book and completing the activities at the end of each chapter. In the book, you’ll discover what’s at the root of your money tendencies, including how to overcome your biggest money fears, how your childhood impacts your money decisions today, and what really motivates your spending, saving, giving, and more. Rachel, thank you again for taking time to come on the show. Really appreciate it.

Rachel Cruze: No, thanks for having me. Really, really thankful. Thanks.

[END]

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YFP 313: 4 Reasons Your Financial Planner Should Manage Your Investments

Posted on June 22, 2023October 5, 2023 by Tim U

Tim Baker CFP®, RICP®, RLP® discusses the 4 reasons why your financial planner should manager you investments on this podcast episode sponsored by First Horizon.

Episode Summary

Financial planners often get a bad reputation because people either don’t trust them or they feel like planners are a waste of time — they could be doing the job themselves. So on today’s episode, sponsored by First Horizon, YFP’s Co-founder & Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker is here to discuss the four reasons why having a financial planner is crucial for managing your investments. From our conversation, you’ll gain a better understanding of the type of accounts that a financial planner could manage on your behalf, what an Investment Policy Statement (IPS) is, and why it’s vital for your financial plan. Then, we dive into the 4 reasons why, if it is the right fit, having a financial planner manage your investments is a good idea. Spoiler alert…hiring a financial planner to beat the market didn’t make the list!

Key Points From the Episode

Introducing Tim Baker and today’s topic: Financial planners managing your investments
Taking a closer look at the investment accounts that a financial planner could manage for you.
What an investment policy statement (IPS) is and why it’s important.
How having a financial planner will save you time and bring you peace.
The importance of an integrated financial plan, and how a financial planner can help.
How a financial planner will ensure that don’t fall victim to behavioral mistakes and biases.
Using a planner to avoid technical mistakes, and the common technical errors that Tim sees.
Why the role of a financial planner is not necessarily to help you beat the markets.
What you can look forward to in the next episode.

Episode Highlights

“On my time off, on the weekends or whatever, I would rather pay a professional that knows what the hell they’re doing — they’ve done it, it’s not their first rodeo — than me waste a weekend.” — @TimBakerCFP [14:33]

“The more that you continue on and accumulate wealth; working with a coach [or] a planner is in line with that. The management of the investments and the stress of it should be delegated to someone else.” — @TimBakerCFP [15:31]

“If we don’t have the assets and the investment management integrated with the plan, it’s almost like we’re trying to fight with one hand tied behind our back.” — @TimBakerCFP [19:13]

“I often say that with investment, you often want to do the exact opposite of what you feel. But the statement that you have to make, even before you make that, is that investment is an emotional activity. It is. [And] a lot of that has to do with our aversion to loss.” — @TimBakerCFP [25:12]

“[Go] by the market, don’t try to beat the market, and the market will take care of you — if you invest in it consistently without bad behavior over long periods of time.” — @TimBakerCFP [36:46]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome YFP co-founder and Director of Financial Planning Tim Baker to talk about four reasons you should have your financial planner manage your investments. Spoiler alert, beating the market did not make the list. As a supplement to today’s episode, download our free checklist, “What Issues Should I Consider When Reviewing My Investments.” You can get a copy of that resource by visiting yourfinancialpharmacist.com/investmentreview. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/investmentreview.

Now, at YFP Planning, our team of fee-only certified financial planners pride themselves in helping clients manage their investments in a tax-efficient, low-fee manner. While that in and of itself is a win, that’s just one part of the financial plan. Our planning team that services more than 280 households in 40 plus states guides clients through the entirety of the financial plan, including retirement planning, debt management, wealth protection, and more. All centered around our philosophy of helping you live a rich life today and tomorrow. You can learn more about our one-on-one planning services while visiting yfpplanning.com. Again, that’s yfpplanning.com. Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, First Horizon and then we’ll jump into my interview with Tim Baker.

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[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:40] TU: Tim Baker, good to have you back on the show.

[0:02:42] TB: Good to be back, Tim. How’s it going?

[0:02:44] TU: It is going well. We’re going to be doing back-to-back episodes focused on managing investments. Next week, we’re going to talk about RMDs or required minimum distributions. We’re going to get in the weeds a little bit over the next two weeks, which I’m excited to do as we talk about some of the investing side of the financial plan. Tim, today we’re going to talk about four reasons you should have your financial planner manage your investments. Now, before we get into those four reasons, I want to make sure we’re all on the same page with what we mean by this. So, having your financial planner manage your investments. Talk about this at a high level, so we can have the right context throughout the show.

[0:03:23] TB: Yes. My attitudes have changed about this over time. Really, this is because of just working with pharmacists on their financial plans and just some of the things that we’ve come up against with regard to being effective and efficient with the financial plan. When we say we feel that your advisor, your planner should manage the investments, what we’re talking about are the investments that you’re managing, that you don’t necessarily need to. This means – these are things like your traditional IRA, your Roth IRA, your brokerage account, old 401(k)s, old 403(b), TSPS, 457 Plans. These are things that you’re not actively contributing to as part of like an entire employer-sponsored retirement plan.

What we found over the years, because I used to be more location agnostic, meaning, my viewpoint was, it didn’t really matter where it was. We either manage it or help your management. I think, in theory, that sounds nice. But in application, it’s not, it’s messy, there’s lots of hands in the cookie jar. There’s lots of moving pieces in regards to the financial plan that the investments are absolutely part of that. Our belief is that if there are held away assets, so held away are defined, you know, when advisors talking about this or assets that are not at their custodian. We use that YFP Planning, we use TD Ameritrade, which is recently merged with Charles Schwab. Schwab will be the predominant brand there. We feel that those client assets that can be managed by us, the advisor should be managed by us. We’ll get into a few reasons of why that is. That’s held away piece.

[0:05:25] TU: Let me give a for instance to define these just a little bit further, and hopefully put something that people can hook on to. Tim, if I, let’s say, I’m working with Kroger pharmacy right now, and I’ve been with them for five years, contributing to their 401(k). Then prior to that, I worked for, let’s say, CVS for five years. Once I left CVS, that money, I moved into a traditional IRA, let’s just say for that example. I’ve got $100,000 in an IRA, and then I’ve got this, let’s say, another $100,000 in my current employer, Kroger, with the 401(k).

When you say held away, that Kroger, my current employer count $100,000, would be a held away asset through my current employer and the contributions I’m making. When we talk about today, managing why you should have your financial planner manage your investments. We’re talking about that previous $100,000 that’s sitting in an IRA that maybe I’m self-managing right now, or it could be someone’s listening to another advisor that’s managing for it. But that’s a differentiation we’re making, correct?

[0:06:33] TB: Yes. You’re going to have held away accounts that some are going to be eligible to potentially be moved over for us to manage. That would be like the old employer, and then you’re going to have some that aren’t because you’re actively contributing to said account. Yes, that would be the distinction I would make.

[0:06:50] TU: Okay. An assumption I want to put out there before we get into the weeds here is that when we say why we believe your financial planner should manage your investments. The assumption we’re making is that that planner, from our perspective, best practice is, there’s a fee-only with a fiduciary responsibility. They have a really thoughtful approach to how they’re managing their investments, which would include an investment policy statement, an IPS, where you’re really spending time with the client to understand their goals, understand their risk tolerance. All of that is informing the direction that we’re taking with the investment. Let’s spend a moment just to break that down a little bit more in terms of what is an IPS, and why is that important? Obviously, the context here of fee-only as well.

[0:07:37] TB: Yes, IPS is not something that every advisor has or even employees. I think regulators like this because it’s kind of a set of instructions for them to see how they are managing client accounts. When I was in my first job in financial services, we didn’t have an investment policy statement. We knew, based on a risk tolerance assessment that we give them, that, “Hey, they’re conservative, or they’re a moderate, or they’re an aggressive investor,” but that was essentially it. We had it in their file that that was what they were, and then we try to match up their portfolios at such.

The way that we do it is, before we invest any dollars on behalf of our client, so let’s pretend that we moved that $100,000 over to a rollover IRA at TD Schwab for us to manage for the benefit of the client. Before we do anything with those dollars, we essentially go through a risk tolerance and questioning goals about the investments. And we issue an investment policy statement, so this is something that we send to a client via DocuSign. In the investment policy statement, it’s essentially an executive summary. What the purpose of the document is, and it’s really to outline investment goals, expectations, strategies, and responsibilities related to the portfolio? It’s to create reasonable objectives and guidelines in the investment of your assets.

We outline things like, what was your risk tolerance, what portfolio do we agree to, what is the asset allocation. Is it a moderate 60-40, or is it more aggressive 90-10, or an all-equity portfolio? What is that investment objective? Is it aggressive growth or growth with income? Are there any type of liquidity needs, any type of tax considerations that we should be aware of? What is the time horizon?

If Tim, you’re the client, and you have 25 years left to retire, then the time horizon is 20, 25 years. What type of accounts most of – a lot of our clients will have an IPS, an investment policy statement for retirement accounts, but they might have something that is related to a tax bomb or a more near-term goal. So we have a different asset allocation. We outline what are the duties and responsibilities of reporting. I think one of the fears that people have, if they’re having their advisor manage their asset is, I think they fear that the money’s not theirs. One of the things that I’ll say is that we don’t have necessarily access to the money. We trade the account, but I can’t go in there and say, “Hey, Tim, you move from this part of Ohio to this part of Ohio.” You have to do that yourself. Because they want to make sure that the chain of custody from where they’re sending account statements is not broken. We used to be able to do that recently.

It’s very, very much like we have very deliberate and specific responsibilities related to the portfolio, but we’re not – it’s not our piggy bank, which I think sometimes people get afraid about that. So, we do know the custodian does all the reporting with statements. We talk about what our responsibility is with rebalancing, how often we’re going to review the count if we take discretion or not. Then, part of our IPS is we outline the different positions that we’re in. So we go through what’s our large cap, or mid-cap, and all the different positions that we’re in related to the portfolio, what the allocation is, some nerdy stock analysis.

What parts of the world that we’re invested in, so whether that’s North America or Asia developing, Asia emerging, Latin America, what the bonds look like, so if they’re double A or single A, we show performance. We look back one, three, five years and show the annualized return, the risk, some charts. We’ll show what the income is on this portfolio. It’s a look back in terms of what the yield is, the stress test, which is a big thing. In the subprime mortgage crisis, this is how the portfolio would react, or when coronavirus happened, or the tech bubble? So, we show some of the stress testing on that. Then, the expense, which often is a huge driver in the overall ability for the portfolio to grow, what does the expense of the overall portfolio look like? That’s our north star, Tim. That’s the document that we use to trade and manage the portfolio as we go here.

[0:12:44] TU: I think that’s time really well spent, right? Because I think for folks, as you mentioned, especially I would say for people who have maybe not worked with an advisor before, who have gone through this type of process or experience where you have someone that is helping to manage your investments. This can feel scary, it can feel big, it can feel — at least as you hear, for the first time, a little bit like a black hole. I think when done well, and that’s the backdrop. We’re assuming as we go through these four points here today. When done well, as you just described in great detail, there’s a lot of time spent, a lot of thought, a lot of attention to make sure that there’s alignment and the decisions that are being made.

Obviously, that’s an important part of the trust process as you’re working with a financial planner, and that should be something that you feel good about, number one. And that you understand and make sure you understand as you’re reviewing those documents and having the conversations with the planner.

[0:13:34] TB: Yes, absolutely.

[0:13:34] TU: With that in mind, let’s talk through four reasons that we believe you should have your financial planner manage your investments. Tim, number one, perhaps most obvious on the list is saving time. I’m busy; I don’t have to worry about this, maybe less stress involved as well. Tell us more about this.

[0:13:50] TB: Yes, I definitely think it’s a time thing. Obviously, this is something that we often talk about, less is more. But I think having your hand on the wheel with regard to this is important. I probably even more so than time; it’s just the brain capacity, Tim. I think sometimes we often really undersell or overlooked fee, the things that drag on our mind that don’t necessarily need to. I always – we’ve kind of talked about how the two of us were not necessarily the most handy people in the world. Could I go out and learn basic plumbing and things like that? Yeah.

But I look at that as, like, on my time off, on the weekends or whatever, I would rather pay a professional that knows what the hell they’re doing; they’ve done it; it’s not their first rodeo. Than me waste a weekend, and either complete it at an hourly rate that is well below that than what I would make during my day job, or that it’s half done or not done. That’s the thing, is like –

[0:14:58] TU: With some curse words.

[0:14:59] TB: With a lot of curse words, and stress, and things like that. That’s just my mentality. I think that becomes more of a thing. The more you look at yourself as a professional as pharmacists should, right? To me, this is an area. We talked about this with small – it’s kind of a no-brainer with small business owners. The first thing that probably needs to go is bookkeeping. It’s one of those things, and I would say that the more that you continue on and accumulate wealth, this thing, working with a coach, a planner is in line with that. And the management of the investments and the stress of it should be delegated to someone else. Obviously, again, it assumes you trust the person, the team that you’re with, which is not something that I take lightly, or anyone takes take lightly. One on our team takes lightly.

One of the things that I really like about being a financial planner is that you’re in that position of trust, and I think pharmacists can relate to that. Again, not taking that lightly, I think is important. But just think about the convenience, and ease of management, paperwork that’s involved. I would love to be more paperless than we are now. We’re getting there. But it’s a slow go. But the ongoing account maintenance, rebalance, and other strategies that you’re going. If you can delegate that to others, I think that’s a huge time savings, but just a brain capacity savings. Then, I think you see this with people in the accumulation stage. But I think, even more so, retirees. I’ve joked about this with my dad, like when he retired, he was no longer doing his day job. He knew that I was, obviously, building out my business and I’m a financial planner.

It was almost like every time that we talked, we talked about the market. He almost preoccupied this, and it was almost a substitute for his job. His livelihood is very much connected to what the market is doing. But I think if you’re doing it correctly, you want to inoculate yourself as best you can. Those near-term ups and downs should not really affect your overall well-being. So to me, a lot of people miss the mark on that. I think that’s where a professional can help you as well.

[0:17:22] TU: Tim, that’s a really good example in terms of the retirement and the preoccupied nature of investments. It’s funny, my father, father-in-law, every time we visit, this comes up within 10 minutes prior. We’re talking about the markets and trends. I think it’s just human behavior that now you get more time available than you did, obviously, than when you’re working. But you’re thinking about things like distributions and strategies, especially if you’re DIY’ing this and not working with a planner.

The ups and downs of volatility, especially the period we’ve been in here the last couple of years that can weigh on you. I think having someone in your corner to help talk you through that, coach you through it, making sure that we’re sticking to the plan, and that we have accountability to stay to that plan, it’s important all the way throughout, but probably even more important than that time period, where you just have the time and it’s front and center top of mind.

[0:18:14] TB: Yes, and I probably should give my dad less of a hard time. He’s probably just trying to find ways to engage me and talk about my business and things like that. But I know for a lot of retirees, definitely one of the things that they talk about quite a bit.

[0:18:29] TU: Number two on our list is ensuring an integrated approach, that we’re not considering this in a silo. Something we talked about often on the show, Tim, that it’s really important we look across the entire financial plan. When we’re looking at investments, retirement planning, debt pay down, insurance, any part of the financial plan that we’re really looking in its entirety, and we’re not just focused on one part of the plan, perhaps at the expense of other parts. Tell us more here.

[0:18:58] TB: Yes. I think, just like we talked about systems of the body, everything’s interconnected. I think one of the things that we’ve learned over from my time at script financial and now, YFP Planning is that if we don’t have the assets and the investment management integrated with the plan, it’s almost like we’re trying to fight with one hand tied behind our back. What we’re really trying to do here see the full picture. We want to make sure that the investment philosophy and management of such assets is aligned with your goals and your life plan. I’m a big, big believer in purpose-based investments. Another buzzword. But what I often find with people that are coming in the door, even do-it-yourself investors is, I’ll say, obviously, Roth 401(k), a Roth IRA, a traditional IRA, we know that those are for retirement by and large.

But I’ll often will see brokerage accounts and accounts like that. I’m like, “What is this money for?” It’s like, “Well, I don’t know.” Why do we even have it? So really aligning and drawing clear lines of distinction between what this bucket of money is for and executing to that. But probably – so you have that, which is more broad to the overall financial plan, but then making sure there’s alignment with other technical areas of the plan. Whether that be debt, the tax situation, retirement. It could be estate and charitable given. All of those things are interconnected. I think if you don’t have eyes on our hands on that, again, it makes our job a lot easier. From the depth perspective, Tim, we know this with regard to PSLF, and non-PSLF, that these things are interconnected. Oftentimes, they are disconnected if they’re not managed, I think, by a QB, one person that is overseeing the plan.

We know that tax is another thing. Is there synergy with the financial plan and the tax plan? By and large, most advisors will say, “Hey, that’s a tax question, go talk to your accountant.” Which is like nails on a chalkboard for me. That’s one of the things that we do differently. We have YFP tax that works in concert with YFP planning. We have a CFP, that is your financial planner, that is working in tandem with a CPA, which is your tax accountant. Looking at things like, are we going to have a big refund? Are we going to owe a lot of taxes at the end of this year? What are the tax loss harvesting strategies as we get more advanced multi-year tax planning? It might be bunching for charitable giving.

We know that retirement and the investment strategy is intertwined. In the accumulation phase, which a lot of our clients are in, that simply bucket creation, so having the different buckets. But then, where are we putting different assets? A lot of people don’t think that probably in your Roth, you need your most appreciable assets, which might be small cap or emerging market. Should probably go there. Where do we put tax advantage accounts that are in the brokerage, or is that somewhere else?

Just knowing where to actually put the investments that you’re putting in that bucket is important in the accumulation stage, where a lot of people overlook that. Then in the deaccumulation, or the withdrawal strategy, whether you’re using a foreign strategy, a bucket strategy, a systemic withdrawal strategy. All of these have rules, Tim, that are clearly linked to the traditional portfolio, and how we either refill bucket one with bucket two or refill bucket two with bucket three. Or how we’re going to with inflation and the gains on the portfolio. How are we going to essentially send that paycheck to you in concert with social security in 2024? How do we create the floor? What are the tools that we’re going to use, and then how are we going to supplement from the investment strategy, and give those dollars to you in retirement?

Then, just overall, how do we manage the liquidity needs. There’s lots of things that happen in real-time. Over the course of many years, that if we’re managing through the client by proxy, is a is a challenge. We’ve had instances where clients will be upset because they’re trading their own accounts, and this is related to tax, and they’re generating lots of short-term capital gains. Then they’re upset with us because our projections are off. It’s like, “But we don’t have any visibility or vantage point of what you’re doing in these accounts that we’re not controlling or we’re not overseeing for you.”

It’s one of those things that, this is what we do. We do this for our clients across the board, and we think we do it well. So working in that way, I think, is important for us, and I think for the effectiveness of the overall financial plan.

[0:24:22] TU: Tim, I think for folks that are hearing some of these terms for the first time, when you talk about things like flooring, bucket tragedy, systemic withdrawal. We talked about this on episode 275 of the podcast, where we had a month-long series on retirement planning, and that episode specifically. We talk about how to build a retirement paycheck. I hope folks will check that episode out in more detail. That’s number two. Ensuring that we have an integrated approach. I think you explained that well, Tim. Number three, which is one that maybe our DIYers are going to get a hate, that we’re challenging this. But this is avoiding behavioral mistakes and biases. Tim, I tend to fall under this – I’ve come to appreciate where I need help. But perhaps, I’m over overconfidence, and really understanding the behavioral mistakes and the biases that we may fall victim to.

[0:25:11] TB: Yes, I often say that with investment, you often want to do the exact opposite of what you feel. But the statement that you have to make, even before you make that is that, investment is an emotional activity. It is. A lot of that has to do with our aversion to loss. Sometimes, it can be also chasing a big payoff if we’re doing things like chasing hot stocks. The market volatility, I think, really plays on our emotion. I always joke, like when the market took a downturn during the Corona Virus or during the subprime mortgage crisis. As you’re seeing your portfolio go from X to X minus 30%, 35%, you want to then take your investment ball and go home, Tim. It doesn’t feel good to see your balance get sawed off like that. But it often leads to bad behavior, and that’s typically where we’re doing things like selling low and buying high.

When we sell to avoid that pain, then we wait on the sideline and buy when the market seems like it’s returned to normal. All of that upside. Again, l think people don’t see this in themselves. I would say that, Tim, that this is true for advisors as well. It absolutely is. But I would say that, if you’re, again – I’ve talked about this, related to the any type of salary negotiation. The big disadvantage that you have as an employee of a company when you’re – or a prospective employee of a company is that you might have a dozen times during your life where you’re negotiating on your behalf with an employer. Whereas your counterpart, whether it’s a hiring manager, an HR manager, they might do it a dozen times in that week. You’re at a disadvantage just because of reps. I’m not saying that we as humans or as advisors, we don’t have these. It’s just that I think we’re more aware of it, and we try to mitigate that with the way that we build out our portfolios.

The behavior thing is huge, and that can be again, it can be chasing hot stocks, it can be trading too much, trying to time the market, which we talked about the buying high, and selling low. Ignoring diversification that’s another issue. Sometimes we see portfolios that are overloaded in tech stocks or one particular security or even act on unreasonable expectations. I still frequently we’ll talk to people who are super confident in their prowess as an investor. But they will say things that just are not in line with reality. Like, “Hey, within the next year, I really want to start making passive income off of my portfolio.” I’m like, “That’s not a real thing in any time in the near future.”

We have to be aware of our common biases, and I think a lot of the ones that you mentioned are things like overconfidence. I probably see that the most. Typically, that is more male than female. It’s just the reality of situation. But even things like hindsight bias, like, of course, the market went down, and this is why. Or herd mentality, or overreaction, these are all biases that I think that we don’t see in ourselves that really can affect our ability to grow our portfolios consistently over time.

We always cite Vanguard. Vanguard has done an advisor alpha study. Vanguard doesn’t have advisors. They’re kind of – they don’t necessarily have a horse in the race, but they basically said that an advisor can add 3% per year in return to your assets. Half of that Tim, 1.5%. I think it’s 2.9 or it might be three. But essentially half of that, Tim, is related to behavior. Paul Eichenberg, he talks about – he does manage some cash, or some investments himself. But he basically said, the core of his investments, what he talks about is, there’s a wall between him and his investments. It’s just so he doesn’t do anything foolish or crazy. That’s part of this as well, is sometimes, something – it’s the overreaction, something happens in the market and it’s like, part of our job is to say, “Hey, we’re okay here. Let’s continue to execute to the plan that we have in place.” The behavior and the emotion drives so much of this, and it can either be bad behavior or you can, again, delegate that out to help you with that.

[0:30:19] TU: Yes. I think, Tim, the time we’re in right now with the volatility, we talked about this a little while going in Episode 213 of investing considerations in a volatile market. But we are living at firsthand the ups and downs, the announcements from the Fed, the anticipation, the reaction to that, the inflation numbers. I mean, it’s just June, June, June. More than ever, I think there’s that risk of access to information volatility on top of that. Obviously, there can be some fear that’s layered on top of that, as well. All of a sudden, we’re feeling that edge to make a move, make some decisions, move our investments. Obviously, there’s tax considerations. There’s timing of the market; you talked about those considerations that can have a negative impact as well.

Great explanation there. Number three on the avoiding behavioral mistakes and biases. Number four probably the favorite of our team. Right, Tim? As it relates to clean these up, is avoiding some of the technical mistakes. You’ve talked about this at length on the show as it relates to backdoor Roth and some of the mistakes. I think one of the challenges here, and we even talk about this behind the scenes that we love putting out content and education. We do a lot of it. But as I often say, in presentations, one of my fears is that I’m oversimplifying information to try to explain and to do in a short period of time. And that someone may run, make some decisions, and maybe not have the full understanding. We just saw that, as we talked about some of the changes that are coming to tax laws and different things. We may not understand the whole picture. Talk to us about avoiding technical mistakes and some of the common ones that we see here.

[0:31:54] TB: Yes. I mean, it’s most base. Sometimes it’s just understanding what accounts that you have. I still hear investors that will say, “I have this mutual fund account.” I’m like, “Well, mutual fund isn’t an account, it’s a type of investment.” That’s very extreme. But then, understanding what are inside of those accounts, those investment accounts, which could be a mutual fund, an ETF, a stock. Again, this is not to – this is not to belittle anyone or make anyone feel bad. Again, I always joke that when I first got out of the Army, I was picking the investments for my 401(k). I looked at all 50 investment choices, or whatever, I’m like – Investing for Dummies, and I bought that book, and I read a few pages, and I’m like, “No, thanks,” and I just picked whatever.

This isn’t something that necessarily is – we know this, Tim. It’s not taught in school or anything. It’s not to make anybody feel bad. It’s just that – this is what we do. It could be the types of accounts that you have, what are in those accounts, transfer accounts wrong. Sometimes this happens where accounts are moved between custodians, and they’re not performed accurately, and that can cause a lot of problems. You have the hyper investor, so it can be someone that’s trading in and out of positions that’s triggered in short-term capital gains tax.

Then, we have issues with the tax bill at the end of the year or other things that are going on. I’ve seen portfolios that have 20, 30, 40 positions, and I’m like, “What the heck is going on? What are we doing? What is the goal of this?” Sometimes it’s just overheard a stock, or I heard this, and I just bought it. Yes, overconcentration. That’s a technical mistake. Is there too much cash in the accumulation, too little cash when you’re in the withdrawal stage?

But yes, one of the things that you’re talking about that, I think, is, again, we gloss over is just things related to backdoor Roth. Most of the people that we are working with are in that Roth IRA eligibility phase-out. So even us managing this as a team, it’s a project. It’s something that we have to be on top of. It’s difficult to do when you have to factor in phase-outs, pro rata rules, you have to look at other accounts that you have, the step transaction rule. There’s lots of things that go into that.

On the technical, I always joke like – kind of related, but unrelated, Tim. When I lived in Ohio the first time, there’s no way that I filed my own Ohio taxes correctly. This is impossible. There’s no way that I did it correctly because of the nuance there. Even some of this stuff is kind of in the same breath; it’s like there’s no way that if I had a similar savviness with regard to investments that I did back in the day, that I would be able to do this correctly without mistake.

There could be a mistake with RMDs for retirements, obviously fees and things like that that are less technical but more an awareness thing. So the list is long with regard to this. Again, what often happens is we read a blog or a podcast. Some say, “Hey, that’s really easy,” and then we do it. Then, the reality is that it’s much more nuanced than – it depends on your particular situation in terms of how to execute some of these strategies.

[0:35:31] TU: Tim, we just talked about four reasons that you should have your financial planner manage your investments. What’s not on the list perhaps is something that everyone is thinking about of, “Hey, I’m going to have my planner manage my investment so that I can beat the market. Isn’t that why I’m hiring you after all? Where’s that on the list?”

[0:35:49] TB: Yes. I mean, I think it’s not on there. I think the reason, Tim is that, in order to beat the market, in order to beat the S&P 500 consistently, and there’s still no guarantee of that, is that you have to spend so much time, effort, energy, and money to do that. They say, we look at the most active mutual fund managers out there. By and large, the research and the studies show that, though, that type of active management in an effort to beat the market does not pay off on a consistent basis.

The strategy that we employ that I feel like a lot of fee-only financial planners employ is more of a passive by the market, don’t try to beat the market, and the market will take care of you if you invest in it consistently without bad behavior over long periods of time. It’s more of a singles and doubles approach versus, “I’m going to hit a home run in 2023, and then strike out for the next three or four years, and then maybe the home run in 2026, 27.” It’s kind of the singles and doubles approach to invest in. And over time, I think that’s a good equation for success.

[0:37:13] TU: We’re going to talk more about that. We have an episode plan for the near future on passive versus active investing, so we’re going to dig into that a little bit more detail in the future. Tim Baker, great stuff. For those that are listening to this episode, and would like to talk with us about the financial planning services at YFP planning and what we offer. Obviously, we’ve talked about managing investment, just one part, an important part, but just one part of financial plan. We would love to have that conversation. You can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Again, that’s yfpplanning.com.

Whether you’re in the early stages of your career, in the middle of your career, nearing retirement, whether you have an advisor, you don’t have an advisor; we’d love to have a conversation to learn more about your situation so you can learn more about us and determine whether or not what we offer is a good fit. Again, book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Tim Baker, great stuff, and looking forward to talking about R&Ds next week.

[0:38:06] TB: Thanks, Tim.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:38:07] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% downpayment for a single-family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to get started with the pre-approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacists.com/home-loan. As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide, and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 312: Secrets About Financial Planners (and How to Feel Confident in Who You Partner With)

Posted on June 15, 2023June 12, 2023 by Tim U

Justin Woods, PharmD, MBA shares takeaways from 350 financial conversations with pharmacists looking to work with a financial planner.

Episode Summary

Navigating the world of financial advice can be a tricky thing. You’re often confronted with baffling jargon, an overwhelming amount of choice, and a lack of transparency, which will typically leave you feeling more confused than when you started. Here to help us unpack these topics today is YFP team member, Justin Woods, PharmD, MBA who has had over 350 financial conversations with pharmacists! We talk with Justin about why pharmacists tend to be skeptical when it comes to hiring a financial planner, the various terms and titles used in the financial services industry, and what outcomes you should expect as part of the financial planning process. Tuning in you’ll learn about key factors that hold people back from pursuing financial advice — like previous negative experiences — as well as an overview of how the financial services industry has changed over the years, and how this impacts clients. We also discuss key terms, like “fiduciary”, and how understanding their implications can help you navigate the industry, before unpacking the four factors of financial decision-making and how planning can help you live a rich and meaningful life.

Key Points From the Episode

We welcome back Justin Woods, PharmD, MBA Director Of Business Development at YFP.
Some of the reasons why pharmacists tend to be skeptical of financial advice.
How past negative experiences can prevent people from getting financial advice.
Why it can be so challenging to navigate the financial advisory market.
The concept of “fiduciary”, what the term means, and why it matters.
How the financial services industry has moved towards tailored advice.
Optimizing for a particular niche and the benefits and value that come with that.
The variety in the types of services on offer (and why it can be overwhelming).
What clients should expect from their financial advisors in terms of scope.
An overview of the four factors of financial decision-making: financial analysis, money scripts, emotions, and overall well-being.
The importance of being comfortable with raising questions with your advisor.
Establishing the ROI you expect from your financial plan.
An overview of the various fee models of financial advisors and what to be aware of.

Episode Highlights

“Most pharmacists I talk to have a difficult time really thinking about one person in their circle who works with a financial advisor.” — @justin_woods [0:05:41]

“[Fiduciary] is just a fancy term, right? But it basically means that it’s a person that you can trust with your life savings that is ethically bound to act in your best interest. So oftentimes, I compare it to taking the oath of a pharmacist that a lot of us did.” — @justin_woods [0:12:56]

“You want a particular outcome, but you may not be as concerned with how it’s done as long as you get there. And there is a lot of complicated financial jargon out there that oftentimes can scare people away or make them feel stupid.” — @justin_woods [0:27:05]

“I feel like pharmacists work so hard for this six-figure income and view it as the ultimate security in life. And what I see from pharmacists that I talk to is that the income alone doesn’t give you the freedom, flexibility, or time that a lot of people are looking for.” — @justin_woods [0:30:49]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrick here, and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome back on to the show, YFP team member Justin Woods. During the show, Justin shares takeaways from over 350 conversations that he has had with pharmacists, looking to hire a financial planner.

Some of my favorite moments from the show include hearing why pharmacists are skeptical when it comes to hiring a financial planner, the various terms and titles used in the financial services industry, why fiduciary and fee-only matter, what outcomes to expect as a part of the financial planning process, and the various ways that financial planners get paid.

Whether or not you decide to work with our team of certified financial planners at YFP Planning. Our hope is this episode will give you the insights and information of what to look for when hiring a financial planner.

If you are interested in joining more than the 280 households in 40-plus states that work with YFP Planning for one-on-one financial planning and wealth management, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether you’re just getting started, in the middle of your career, or nearing retirement, our team is ready to help. Again, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

All right, let’s hear it from today’s sponsor, Pyrls and then we’ll jump into my interview with YFP Director of Business Development, Justin Woods.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:01:26.6] JW: This is Justin Woods from the YFP team with a quick message before today’s show. If you’re tired of relying on shared passwords or spending hundreds of dollars for drug information, we’ve got great news for you. Today’s podcast sponsor, Pyrls, is changing the game for pharmacy professionals. Pyrls offer us top drug summaries, clinical teaching points, a drug interaction checker, calculators, and guideline reviews all in one user-friendly resource.

They also recently add free weekly quizzes to test your pharmacotherapy knowledge. Whether you’re on your web browser or accessing the mobile app, Pyrls has got you covered. Visit pyrls.com to get access to more than 25 free pharmacotherapy charge to get you started. Upgrade your drug information resources today with Pyrls, don’t miss out on this game-changing resource.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:21.8] TU: Justin, welcome back to the show.

[0:02:23.7] JW: Thanks for having me, Tim.

[0:02:24.8] TU: Excited to have you in this discussion that we have today. Also, an exciting time for you Justin, some of our listeners may know, many may not that you and Sarah, you have twins on the way, super exciting phase of life. How’s the preparation coming? I don’t know if you can be fully prepared but how are you feeling?

[0:02:42.4] JW: Yeah, we feel, I guess, mentally prepared, right? As two pharmacists, we want to plan for everything and so we’re just anticipating the arrival. My wife is 33 weeks pregnant right now. So I guess, on average, twins go to 38 weeks. So it could be any time now to be honest.

So yeah, we put the car seats in the minivan this morning, and yeah, exciting stuff around here, a very expensive season of life with daycare and whatnot but yeah, we are excited nonetheless.

[0:03:14.4] TU: You know, it’s funny, I was reflecting back. You know, I’ve talked about this, you know, as Jess and I had our four boys and you know that adjustment from one to two and then you go two to three, everyone says, “Hey, you go from man to man to zone defense.” You’re going right there, right? One to three so.

[0:03:26.6] JW: Yeah, we’re going right there, we’re going right there. So thankfully, our toddler who is two, a little bit over two, already knows that there are two babies on the way. She’s already been trying to be very helpful, so we’re hoping to bring her into the defensive scheme a little bit as well.

[0:03:42.2] TU: Yes, I love that, I love that. Well, it’s been a while since we had you on the podcast on episode 250, we talk about 10 takeaways that you had from 50 financial conversations with pharmacists, colleagues. We’ll link to that episode in the show notes and for today’s episode, we’re going to dig deeper into the now over 350 conversations that you’ve had with pharmacists and what you’ve learned, and why we struggle evaluating professional financial advice.

Why we struggle perhaps in choosing and hiring and evaluating a financial planner. Our goal being, Justin, that we can pull back the curtain on some of the secrets about financial planners so that our listeners can feel confident in who they partner with, whether that’s with us, we hope so, or whether that’s with someone else and certainly, that’s okay. We want them to be informed in that process.

So Justin, let’s start this off. One of the key takeaways that you’ve had, again in now over 350 conversations with pharmacists all across the country at all different phases of their career, which I too noticed early on in my experience building YFP is that pharmacists are skeptical when it comes to hiring a financial planner. That’s not to say a bad thing, right? Tell us more.

[0:04:54.2] JW: Yeah, it’s not a bad thing, right? But when I talk to pharmacists and I survey them to understand how they feel about financial advisory services they shared, we’re just confused about what advisors do, skeptical if they can actually trust them, right? That trust piece is huge or some folks who have actually regretted their decision to work with a particular advisor and oftentimes, when I tell people about the work our team does and the breadth and depth of the topics, the advice that we offer, they share, “Gosh, I didn’t know financial planning covers all of that” right?

And in my opinion, a major factor of that is that people often don’t talk about money with family, with friends or colleagues, and from that standpoint, it’s not talking about money, they’re probably not talking about their financial advisor either. So in most pharmacists I talk to have a difficult time really thinking about one person in their circle, right? Who works with a financial advisor.

In fact, in 2022, only 35% of Americans worked with a financial advisor, and a more interesting stat, is that a study done by AARP found that 45% of people would rather visit the dentist than make an appointment, an initial appointment to talk with a financial advisor and nothing against a dentist, right? Because my mom was actually a dental hygienist for about 35 years but people distrust financial services as an industry.

They don’t know how to choose or vet a good advisor and they don’t even know what an advisor does, right? So the other side too are folks who are in that pre-retirement phase is 74% of Americans have shared that they wish that they could get a financial planning do-over or set up a better financial situation. So there’s really that this gap between what people are afraid of, maybe because they don’t know enough about it, and what they wish they had done about in the first place too.

[0:06:46.4] TU: Yeah, that’s really – I mean, the visit to the dentist is fascinating, right? I think of you know, that process obviously. I love dentists too but not necessarily my favorite place to go and so I’m curious to pull this back a little bit further, Justin. From all these conversations you’ve had with pharmacists, why is this discomfort, this feeling, this, “Hey, I’d rather not do this at all or look at it” do you have a sense that it’s from maybe some that have had a previous experience that left a bad taste?

Is it influence of you know, maybe a parent or family or friends or others? Is it just this topic of personal finances you mentioned is one that especially if I’m maybe not exactly where I want to be that I don’t want necessarily someone, you know, making that worse or me feeling judged by where I’m at with my financial position, what’s the read you get on why the pharmacists you speak with maybe are even though they’ve taken that step, obviously, to meet with you or you wouldn’t have those conversations, still maybe not the most comfortable thing that they want to be doing?

[0:07:47.7] JW: Yeah, because there is a lot of confusion out there about what is a financial advisor and when most people think of financial advisor, they think of just the investment piece and realistically, that is only one piece. If you think about the term “financial advisor” technically, it’s just a generic term with no precise industry definition.

So this title can describe many different types of financial professionals like stock brokers, life insurance agents, tax preparers, investment managers, and financial planners. There are some estate planners and bankers who also may fall under this category as well. The only distinction is that this person has to provide guidance and advice.

If they just press a button and place trades for clients or simply prepare your tax return without providing that advice piece, they would technically not be a financial advisor and according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are more financial advisors than pharmacists.

In fact, the job outlook for financial advisors has a growth of 15 per percent compared to 2% per pharmacist and these numbers alone show that the demand for people seeking professional advice about their situation and the number of options a pharmacist has when it comes to actually hiring a financial advisor.

So that process of vetting an adviser and find out where that best fit is that can feel overwhelming at the same time.

[0:09:15.8] TU: Yeah, I’m so glad you brought up the numerous titles that can be used. One is I often share with folks is you know, the term financial advisor or financial planner or wealth manager, whatever term you may see in and of itself isn’t really going to tell you a whole not about what this person does. We’ll talk about fees and how they charge and scope of services and all that.

Really, the ownership is on the consumer to understand you know, “What does that mean and are they qualified and are we a good fit?” we’ll talk about fiduciary and some of those responsibilities as well and I think because of that variety and because of that confusion, Justin, I suspect that that may be playing into not only the low percentages of folks that are engaging with advisor but also that feeling of like, “Uh, I’d rather just not engage.”

I do still think there’s a piece of, “Hey, maybe I had a bad previous experience that validated some of the concerns that I had” or maybe I have a family member, a parent, a relative, someone that’s saying like, “Hey, don’t work with an advisor” Because they had that experience that maybe was less than ideal, you know, themselves or as we talked about just a little while ago, I do think for some, especially if they’re in a position where they think, “Hey, maybe I should be progressing further than I have thus far.”

That you know, engaging with someone that is going to, you know, reinforce some of the opportunities of where things could be a little bit better could add on to some of those negative feelings and feelings of self-judgment that people may have as well. So lots to consider and unpack there and this reminds me, Justin, when Tim Church and I wrote the book Seven Figure Pharmacist.

We sat down to write this chapter and I kid you not, a chapter on evaluating a financial planner, understanding your financial planner, by far it was the chapter that took us the longest to write and had the most edits and revisions and it’s because of everything that we’re talking about. You know, there’s not a simple understanding of what these terms mean.

I think, more than anything, there’s some good questions that people can be asking to try to figure out more about, “What are the credentials, what does the scope of service look like, what does the fee, is this a good fit for me?” but you know, we’re used to the model of, we know what a PharmD means, right?

There are variances in educational programs but there’s a set of accreditation standards for good reasons when it moves to you know, the public understanding, what is a pharmacist, what does a registered pharmacist mean, what does a PharmD mean, there’s some level of consistency, right?

Same thing with the PGY1 accredited, PGY2 board certification and I think my experience and I suspect for many of our listeners, we adopt that mindset and we try to apply it to the financial services industry and it doesn’t work because there’s so many differences and nuances in this industry, and if we don’t do the homework and understanding a lot of what we’re talking about here today, I think that further validates that feeling of like, “Ugh, this is confusing.”

“I have this skeptical feeling, maybe this is a little bit you know, not ideal for what I’m looking for” or “Hey, I don’t mind paying a fee” is something I hear often but I just want to make sure that it’s transparent and I know that you know, this is a good investment that I’m making. So really good breakdown, Justin, of the titles and some of the concerns that are out there in the confusion of it. What about the concept, Justin, of fiduciary?

This is a common question that I get. I think we’ve made some end roads into this term becoming something that people are looking more for but there’s still a lot of confusion of like, what is a fiduciary, why does this matter and why isn’t everyone a fiduciary? It just seems like common sense.

[0:12:54.6] JW: Yeah, definitely, and it is just a fancy term, right? But it basically means that it’s a person that you can trust with your life savings that is ethically bound to act in your best interest. So oftentimes, I compare it to taking the oath of a pharmacist that a lot of us did, right? But if you partner within an investment broker, technically, they only follow a suitability standards.

So they believe that a recommendation of a transaction involving a stock or bond, right? It’s based on what the customer may disclose in connection with that recommendation. So they’re only looking at a piece of that person’s life or what that person has told them. So in most cases, those who follow suitability, they’re not required to collect as much information, data about you before they tell you what to invest your money in.

It’s kind of like a pharmacist only reviewing half of a patient’s medication list before making a recommendation, right? I actually met with a pharmacist last week who said that she asked her financial advisor if he was fiduciary and he replied with, “I always do what’s best for you” and that may be true, right?

There are a lot of good financial advisors out there but being fiduciary, right? Had taken that oath, demonstrates a level of commitment and transparency that the advisor is held to that standard at that standard at the same time.

[0:14:19.5] TU: Yeah, that’s a good call, Justin, right? Just because someone is not a fiduciary or something we’re biased toward and obviously not a fee-only advisor, meaning that you know, in a fee-only model, you are compensating the advisor for the advice that you – they are giving you, they’re not getting paid by recommendations of insurance products, your investment where they’re essentially getting a kickback.

You know so we use these terms, fee-only and fiduciary but just because someone is not fee-only or fiduciary, it doesn’t mean that they’re incompetent. It doesn’t mean that they’re a bad person. It really means that “Hey, we got to do a little bit more homework to line up.”

Well, why aren’t they a fiduciary, why aren’t they fee only and what implications may that have to me and my financial plan, and is that the best option or not in terms of engaging or working with someone in that area? So I think it is a really important concept, John Oliver, Justin, has a great segment.

[0:15:08.2] JW: He does. Yeah, I’ve watched that a few times, it’s funny.

[0:15:10.4] TU: Great segment on fiduciary and suitability if you want to learn more about this. The example I always give Justin, when I present in this topic is that if I’m going to buy a suit, right? And I got to two different suit shops, one is providing suits under a suitability standard, if we play this out, one is under a fiduciary standard.

I like a nice slim-fit suit, right? That’s appropriate for the width of my shoulders, my arms, my leg, overall physique and so if I go to the fiduciary shop and I say, “Hey, these are my measurements, they’re going to do the work and they’re going to get me a nice fitting to that is the best. It’s the best fit for me and my personal situation” that’s the comparison to the fiduciary standard of the financial plan.

If I go to the suitability standard suit shop, you know maybe they don’t take the right measurements or they don’t have to do all of that analysis. Maybe I’ll leave with a little bit of a baggy suit, right? Too long, doesn’t get tailored. It’s not terrible, maybe it is on some level. You can argue it’s appropriate but it’s not necessarily the best fit, right? Or the best option for me and that comes to play exactly in the financial plan.

Whether you’re working on, you know, retirement planning or other parts of the financial plan, you know we really want to make sure that as you are evaluating, are all parts of the plan that that fiduciary is really looking at what is the best option for you and your personal situation. So a fun example and I think, you know, to draw this to pharmacy.

Like could you imagine walking into some pharmacies, Justin, whether the pharmacist was you know, obligated to do all of these things whereas in some cases, you know and the other that they only have to do half of the DUR. It just doesn’t make sense, right? As we think about drawing lines.

[0:16:45.8] JW: Right, exactly, exactly, and Tim, to tie off your analogy a little bit, imagine if you were to go into that fiduciary suit shop and that suit shop only worked with pharmacists or people of your body type and height and I think that gets to what the financial planning industry has molded it into is this focus on niche or niche. We can debate that term too, but the financial advice industry for a long time was predominantly transaction-based, where the advisers earned a living solely from those commissions that they earn on whatever product that they sold.

So there was really no need to meet with those clients until there was an opportunity to implement a product, say like life insurance for example. So it was essentially for advisors to be as broad in their messaging and marketing as possible, right? To cast a really large net to reach anyone with a pulse who might buy that product but then in the last decade, we’ve really seen a movement to provide tailored advice and it’s a really caught on, where you developed a unique expertise for working with those clients and the problems that they face and that in turn, leads to development of services and scope and a business model that really fits a client for their need.

So for example, obviously I’m biased because I’m a pharmacist but if I was asked to recommend a treatment regimen for like Osteomyelitis in an adult, right? I could spend hours researching that topic and hopefully feel confident in my decision or I could just call a friend, who is a PGI2-trained infectious disease pharmacist who has that experience, who has that knowledge to help me feel confident in the solution for that patient specifically.

So that’s kind of where I feel the benefit or the optimization of that niche comes in. Obviously, that perspective is biased too since our financial planning team, we primarily work with pharmacists like us.

[0:18:52.5] TU: Yeah, it’s a really important point though, Justin. Someone recently was kind of challenging this concept on LinkedIn a few weeks ago and I really started to think more deeply about it. Obviously, it’s the bread and butter of what we do and the more I think about it, the more I even firmly believe in the value of the niche and this individual is really, you know, kind of arguing against like, “Why is there a need to really differentiate financial planning services for healthcare professionals?” or more specifically, in what we do with pharmacists and we see very specific examples of this on a weekly basis.

There is value in repetition here. We have a planning team of five CFPs that work with you know, return on 80 households all across the country and you know some of the things that come up over and over again like, “Hey, I’m working on a student loan forgiveness plan and I’m working with a nonprofit hospital.” “Oh, by the way, we’ve had you know, 15, 20, 30 other people that are navigating this” maybe not that same employer, although we do have some of that overlap with institutions like the VA for example.

But we’ve been down this path, we’ve crossed these T’s, dotted the I’s, we’ve seen where the bumps are along the road or even just more generally in some of the trends that we see of pharmacist in terms of income and barriers and challenges and you know, where they’re at, at certain points of net worth throughout their career. I mean, all of these things compound over time with some of the experience and I do think that there’s a lot of value that can come from the niche.

[0:20:21.4] JW: Yeah.

[0:20:23.0] TU: Variety also comes Justin, in the types of services that are offered. This is one that I think gets overlooked so often. You have these conversations way more than I but it feels like there’s this general assumption that like, “Hey, I’m looking at three financial planners” and not necessarily asking the question to understand, “What does that relationship actually look like? Who are the clients that they work with? Are they like me?”

Do they have experience in these areas? So I’m really referring here to the financial planning process and what a client can or cannot expect in terms of scope of service and there are wide variances here. Tell us more.

[0:21:02.7] JW: Yeah and I first want to start with an example that I had last week, I’ve gotten on a call with a pharmacist from Ohio, and right out of the gate, she kind of asked us about our fees and I was very transparent that if you’re only evaluating based on fees of cost, it’s going to be a raise to the bottom because our financial planning model is not the “cheapest out there” but you really have to advocate for yourself and understand, “Okay, does the scope of the service, does the process that this team or this person offer, does that fit me exactly?” and pharmacists want that structure and the financial planning process provides that too.

So it really starts with collecting all of your data and talking with clients that understand your financial situation. So through that conversation with a planner, they can map out both the short and long-term personal and financial goals. So if you look at my financial plan, it certainly has all the big things like retirement and paying off our student loans that are still there but it’s got other things too like going to Disney every year, right?

My wife and I want to do a trip to Africa for our 10-year anniversary, it’s got our beach home in there. So it is really establishing, okay, a road map of where all your goals fit in and then how do we use your income or money as a tool to reach those outcomes at the same time. So it’s kind of a traditional soap note, where the CFP professional, right? Your financial planner will look at this objective, the objective, then they’ll develop that assessment and plan to maximize the potential, the probability that you will reach those goals and achieve those outcomes.

So they often support you put the plan into motion and then monitoring some financial lab value, so to speak, to really understand that progress and making financial decisions, that can be broken down into the interplay about four factors that often aren’t talked about. So there’s the financial analysis, there’s the money scripts, there’s emotions, and there’s the overall well-being too.

And unfortunately, financial analysis has been viewed for too long as the overriding predominant factor in making a good decision but if we boil every decision down to a cost-benefit analysis without giving it the proper – consider the other factors, then we’re doing a disservice to our clients too. So without understanding the money scripts, you know we can’t really understand the client’s beliefs and values in financial decision-making.

An example of that is, you know, some of our clients have student loans and so often times that may come up in a conversation. I had one pharmacist couple who shared that their partner had been in a life-threatening accident. So that really changed their perspective on what they found meaning on in life and they really didn’t care about the student loans. They didn’t care about the math around interest.

They just want to pay the minimum amount and live their life now too. So it is all about working with somebody who understands what that process is and can really help you balance those personal and financial goals at the same time.

[0:24:17.3] TU: Yeah and Justin, the more I experience, you know, for Justin and I and our family and our financial plan, I feel like with each passing year there is a greater and greater appreciation for less about the math, more about the emotions, more about the goals, more about the behavior and I think part of this might be some overconfidence. You know, I even had that I would say early in my career of like, “I’m good with math, I can punch a bunch of numbers.”

But executing on the financial plan versus just developing one or two very, very different things and I think this is such an important part as you’re evaluating different services. You know I think that many pharmacists, myself included, we’re analytical human beings. We see service, we see price, we compare, those often are not apples to apples as you’re looking because of what we’ve been talking about here throughout the episode.

So you really have to pull back the onion of, “You know, what is the scope of service? What is the fees that are being here? What are they going to cover, what are they not going to cover?” you know? Do they typically work with individuals that are working through the challenges that I have in my financial plan? You know, if I have USD 200,000 student loan debt, you know most firms may not work with individuals that are early on their credit.

Do they even know some of the nuances on student loan repayment? So I think there’s an appreciation that’s happening that to your point, much of the history around the planning relationship is focused on the math on the analytical side I think because of the evolution of FinTech. We’re seeing some of that become more of a commodity and I think that’s going to lead to more of a value of the relationship and really looking holistically at the plan.

The things that you mentioned are what ultimately we hear from people about success and living a rich life, right? The trip to Africa, the beach home, the going to Disney every year, like if you and Sarah wake up and because you had a really good analytical math person doing the planning and you have USD 3.5 million saved but you haven’t lived a rich life, who cares, right?

[0:26:12.5] JW: Right.

[0:26:13.0] TU: So I think that as individuals are looking at option A versus B versus C, what’s the scope, what’s the price, what are the expectations, do they have my best interest in mind, how often are we going to be meeting? These are the types of things that we want to be evaluating.

[0:26:27.8] JW: Yeah, yeah. I think pharmacists, myself include the way that we are trained, the way that we think. We often get focused in on the mechanism action or the process in ensuring that the process itself will help us achieve those outcomes. When we think about it from our profession, so the general public oftentimes does not have an understanding of how the drugs that they take work nor do many of them care, right?

But they have confidence in their doctor and their pharmacist who give them advice, education, recommendations as well. I feel like it’s the same thing when you consider financial advice, right? You want a particular outcome but you may not be as concerned with how it’s done as long as you get there. And there is a lot of complicated financial jargon out there that oftentimes can scare people away or make them feel stupid too.

I was actually speaking with two pharmacists last week from Kansas and they shared how they’re trying to balance their personal and professional life, acknowledge that they are not confident about their financial literacy or what they know. So they shared, they were really looking for somebody who could educate them, help them understand their financial situation to feel more in charge, take control, and just give them peace of mind of where they might end up.

I felt like the husband brought a really good analogy there, he went on to show that as a pharmacist, he doesn’t jump into a conversation with a patient about the Pharma Co. connects of Vanco, right? But I feel like many financial, traditional financial advisors do that exact thing where they show you some fancy charts and graphs to make it just feel confusing, to justify their value over time but if you currently work with an advisor, right?

Are you comfortable telling them you don’t understand something and asking questions because I’ve heard this exact scenario from my sister in fact, where she doesn’t feel comfortable saying she doesn’t know something with her adviser. So as you said, it is a lot about that, that relationship piece.

[0:28:34.1] TU: Yeah and I think that’s a great example. You know, that couple you mentioned, you know just last week, I heard things like peace of mind, I heard making sure that we have our goals defined. I heard comfortable in terms of financial knowledge and literacy, which is interesting because I think those are some of the greatest outcomes that come from the relationship but they also aren’t necessarily the ones that we look at and say, “Hey, we can punch this in a calculator and determine the ROI” right?

[0:28:59.2] JW: Yeah.

[0:28:59.5] TU: So this is where I think you feel as a buyer, as someone who is evaluating financial planner is a common question, Justin, I’m sure you get is like, “What’s the ROI?” right? “I’m going to invest X and what am I going to get?” and I actually think the better we’re doing on the planning relationship, you talk about living the rich life with the Africa trips, the Disney trips, you know what you guys are doing as family experiences, putting a dollar amount to the joy in living a rich life, we know what that feels like.

But to answer the ROI question, that’s not an easy one and perhaps, maybe not even a good fit if that’s the focus.

[0:29:33.8] JW: Right, exactly. I actually spoke with a pharmacist recently who shared that his expectation working with a financial planner was that our team would return a hundred bucks for every dollar that he paid to work with us and I try to think about that if a patient had come to a pharmacist like that. So imagine if a patient has said, “I expect this medication to reduce my A1C by five percentage points” right?

In reality, there’s so many other factors like compliance, adherence, diet, exercise, access for building too that would be impossible to quantify the exact ROI there too. So what the pharmacist asked, “Okay, if we lower your A1C by five percentage points, what would that actually do for you?” right? I think for most patients, it would help them, one, feel a lot better, right? Less fatigue so that they can keep up with their grandkids at the playground.

Maybe more time, right? Maybe you avoid some microvascular complications that don’t derail your ability to drive across the country in an RV, right? Or maybe prevent a major heart event that allowed you to live longer too. So I feel like pharmacists work so hard for this six-figure income and view it as the ultimate security in life and what I see from pharmacists that I talk to is that the income alone doesn’t give you the freedom, flexibility, or time that a lot of people are looking for.

[0:31:05.8] TU: You can see this. You again, do a lot more of these discovery calls, talking with colleagues across the country that are looking for hiring a financial planner. You see this more than I but I recall many of these conversations where you can in real-time see and feel kind of the split-brain feeling of like, “You know emotionally, these are the things that mean, are most important to me” right?

The peace of mind, the security, making sure I’ve got a good plan, perhaps on the same page with the spouse or partner, and we know that those are very difficult to quantify but then are buyer mode goes on. It’s like, “Okay if I am going to spend X, what’s the return and why?” and so I think this is a hard thing to reconcile but it is an important one for obviously someone to feel good about moving forward.

I think for the expectations from a planning relationship, you know we always say that Justin, sometimes we can move forward with us. We don’t want them coming on board and having buyer’s remorse. That’s not a good fit for them, that is not a good fit for us. So the discovery process, the evaluation when done well and I think this is good advice whether someone’s looking to work for us or with someone else is that you want to feel good about that relationship on both sides.

So if someone is expecting a 101 ROI and you know, we kind of navigate that and we move it forward, guess what? In two or three months, we’re probably going to realize this isn’t a good fit and so I think establishing that upfront is really valuable. Fees, Justin, let’s save the best for last, right? So much variety here when it comes to fees and what someone is paying. Often we hear from folks that, “Hey, I am not paying anything.”

We’re like, “Well, not so fast” so sometimes, this is transparent, sometimes it’s not. So what have you learned in terms of the various fee models that are out there and the expectations that clients have for how they’re compensating a planner for their advice?

[0:32:48.3] JW: Yeah and this is the one question that not many people can answer, right? How do advisers get paid? I say that from experience because my first four to five years of working with an adviser, I had very little understanding of the fee structure, how much I paid, and from you know, 350 conversations with pharmacists, they have a very similar perspective as well. I believe it speaks to the industry as a whole, right?

They are not very transparent about fees, which can certainly add to that feeling of distrust and being skeptical too. So if you’re listening to this podcast, you currently work with an adviser and don’t feel you pay anything, right? That should be a red flag, to ask more questions and be an advocate for yourself to make sure it is a worthwhile investment and if you are working with a financial adviser, there is no such thing as free advice.

So financial advisers typically fall into one of three different payment models, right? There’s commission, there is commission and a fee model, typically it’s called fee-based, and then finally, fee only. So both commission and fee-based, they receive compensation based on specific financial products that they sell you. It could be insurance products, annuities, investment options too like mutual funds.

Fee-only though, those financial planners are compensated directly by their clients for advice, planned implementation, and that ongoing management of all of the assets but I feel like oftentimes people just stop there but that’s not all because if you’re not informed and educated, there are other fees that you may not consider and I learned this the hard way. So in a commission-based model, there are fees tied to the sale and ongoing management of a product too.

So it could be life insurance or disability insurance too, there are things like transaction fees, periodic charges, annual operating expenses. When you look at things like mutual funds, there are often sales charges, also known as sales loads, those are commissions you pay when you invest in a mutual fund. So there are also expense ratios too, so when a lot of folks come to me and say, “Hey, I’m paying X amount for my adviser” oftentimes those do not include those additional expenses like the sales loads, the expense ratios as well.

An example that I had, it is a pharmacist who is working with an adviser, asked that adviser, “What are your fees or how can I understand this a little bit better?” and that adviser replied with emailing them a 46-page document talking about –

[0:35:35.5] TU: I’ve seen those, I’ve seen that.

[0:35:37.0] JW: Exactly, exactly and I feel like you know, seeing a document like that is just kind of praying and hoping that your client won’t read that because I often wonder if the adviser themselves can even explain what their fees are.

[0:35:51.9] TU: Yeah, we talked about this Justin, Tim and I in episode 208 of the podcast, we broke down some of the fees on investments, why that’s so important. You talked about a handful of them. I think the transparency piece here is so important not only for understanding but also again what I shared just a few moments ago, you want to feel good about this relationship, and you know we’re not shy about charging fees.

We feel like our planning team provides a ton of value and the return on investment is much more than the fees that are paid by the client and we’re proud that those are transparent and if we get to that point through transparency and we determine, “Hey, it’s not a good fit because of X, Y, or Z” so be it, right? But the transparency is there and again, whether we’re the solution or someone is looking at hiring another adviser, I think feeling good about that decision.

Feeling good that you know and understand the fees and I think the separation piece is a really important one. So you know, if you’re in a planning relationship where we hear this all the time, “Hey, I’m not paying anything for financial planning, it’s free financial planning but I just bought a whole life insurance, I had a commission associated with it” right? So there is a natural inherent bias in the advice that is being given.

It doesn’t mean again, that they’re a bad person, it doesn’t mean that they’re incompetent but where does the incentive lie for them to be spending your time? Not on comprehensive financial planning, not on your student loans, not about setting your life goals and making sure we’re on track with living a rich life both today and tomorrow. It is about spending time where the dollars are going to be earned. And in that model, it’s selling a product.

That’s one of the things I love about the fee-only models that you’re paying the planner for the advice that they are giving and sometimes that means you are working on traditional things, like investments or retirement planning. Sometimes that means you’re getting in the weeds on student plans or budgeting or buying a home or buying an investment property or working through a difficult conversation with a spouse and getting on the same page.

Talking to mom and dad about finances, teaching your kids about it. I mean, all of these things are important parts of the financial plan but they’re not traditionally incentivized where an adviser is going to spend time on those things if they’re going to be compensated through recommending a certain product.

[0:38:04.4] JW: Exactly, exactly, yeah.

[0:38:06.6] TU: Great stuff, Justin, it’s hard to believe it’s been over 350 conversations. That’s pretty wild, right? When you come back to that.

[0:38:12.7] JW: Yeah. Yeah, I had to look at that number before we jumped on but yeah, 353 as of today.

[0:38:20.0] TU: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So for those that are listening, if you want to learn more about the comprehensive financial planning and wealth management services that we offer through the amazing team at YFP Planning, our five CFPs, and the folks that support them as well, you can book a free discovery call with Justin. We’ll link to that in the show notes, which is the direct link to his calendar.

You can also go to yfpplanning.com and get to that as well. Again, that discovery call process, that conversation is all about understanding what are the goals, what are the things that you are facing in your financial situation right now. More than anything, Justin is going to be asking good questions, listening, sharing more about the services, and trying to identify “Is it a good fit with what we offer or is it not?”

So it truly is meant to be the discovery in nature, there is no obligation through that process, and again, yfpplanning.com or you can book directly to Justin’s calendar. We’ll link to that in the show notes.

[0:39:12.5] JW: And Tim, I would just add one more thing there if there’s time, is that you know through our conversation, we’ve really only scratched the surface on a couple of these topics. So if somebody is still feeling pretty skeptical like confused about this, I do have an on-demand webinar that I recorded with all of my learnings from these conversations, my own experience too that goes into a lot more depth about the various topics like scope and fees and whatnot.

I feel like for a lot of folks, I think there’s been 60 people who have watched that so far. It really helps them understand and feel empowered about evaluating financial advice if it works for them or not. So that’s typically a really good first step if you are still a little bit uncomfortable.

[0:39:58.1] TU: Awesome, we will link to that webinar in the show notes so folks can access that as well. Justin, thanks so much.

[0:40:04.3] JW: Thanks, Tim.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:40:05.6] JW: Hey, this is Justin again from the YFP team. Thanks for tuning in to today’s podcast. If you’re a pharmacy professional, you know how crucial it is to have access to reliable drug information. That’s why we’re excited to tell you about Pyrls, today’s podcast sponsor. Gone are the days spending hundreds of dollars for access to drug information, Pyrls offer top drug summaries, clinical teaching points, a drug interaction check or calculators, and guideline reviews all in a user-friendly resource.

Whether you prefer accessing information to your web browser or Chrome extension or mobile app, Pyrls has got you covered. Plus, for a limited time, you can visit pyrls.com to get access to more than 25 free pharmacotherapy charge to get you started. Upgrade your drug information resource today with Pyrls. Visit pyrls.com, that’s pyrls.com to learn more. Thanks again for listening.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:40:58.7] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 311: Raising Money-Savvy Kids

Posted on June 8, 2023October 5, 2023 by Tim U

Julia Myers, PharmD discusses strategies for teaching kids about money, all the way from elementary age through young adults. This episode is sponsored by First Horizon.

About Today’s Guest

Julia Myers is a practicing pharmacist and pharmacy leader at the University of Missouri Health Care in Columbia, Missouri. Julia received her Doctor of Pharmacy degree from the University of Wyoming School of Pharmacy and her Masters in Business Administration from the University of Tennessee- Knoxville. Her 15-year career encompassed clinical and leadership roles in community pharmacy, ambulatory care, health system, and specialty pharmacy. In 2020, Julia was recognized as a member of the Class of 20 Under 40 by Columbia Magazine for her achievements in medication affordability, specialty pharmacy, and overall community impact. After experiencing a life-changing medical event, Julia semi-retired in May 2022 and is now pursuing her best life focusing on family, lifelong learning, and travel. Julia enjoys spending time outdoors, reading and writing, and raising 5 children with her husband Brad. Follow her on social @Juliamyersrx

Episode Summary

Less than half of parents feel confident in what they are teaching their children about money. Even fewer regularly discuss money with their kids. Julia Myers is a practicing pharmacist and pharmacy leader at the University of Missouri Healthcare. During this episode, sponsored by First Horizon, we discuss how the type of money household you grew up in influences your financial management today. We explore strategies to teach your children about money across the full spectrum of ages, from early childhood to young adulthood. Julia weighs in on the loss of generational wealth, why mistakes are the best teachers, and how self-reflection can lead you to better equip your children to build their financial futures. Throughout the show, Julia offers practical tips on approaching money conversations with your family and empowering your children.

Key Points From the Episode

An introduction to Julia Myers, practicing pharmacist and pharmacy leader.
The Pharmacist Home Loan offered by First Horizon Bank.
How Julia’s career journey in pharmacy has led to her current role.
Where her interest in the topic of kids and money began.
Julia summarizes her vision to help families build a legacy of generational wisdom.
Julia’s perspective on what is taught in the classroom and how parents need to take it further.
Why it is important not to project your feelings about financial habits onto your children.
The loss of generational wealth today.
Why we often learn the most from mistakes,
The importance of self-reflecting on the money scripts you were raised with.
Applying different strategies to different age groups.
Resetting ‘I deserve’ to ‘I am responsible for’.
Explaining money to your elementary school-aged child.
Discerning between ‘need’ and ‘want’.
Introducing delayed gratification to pre-teens.
Bringing the financial conversation into dating and marriage with your adult children.
Where to find Julia’s 5 Family Financial Conversation Starters online.

Episode Highlights

“I inspire and empower families to expand their legacy beyond generational wealth to generational wisdom.” — @juliamyersrx [0:06:36]

“‘Someday’ always happens. How are you preparing and being intentional for that someday?” — @juliamyersrx [0:14:29]

“They’ll say, ‘Well, what’s money for?’ and I say, ‘Saving, spending, and sharing or giving.’” — @juliamyersrx [0:28:48]

“Generational wealth without wisdom is playing the lottery. It’s leaving your legacy to a lottery rather than being intentional and passing it on.” — @juliamyersrx [0:34:04]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week I welcome Julia Myers onto the show to talk about a topic near and dear to both of us, kids and money. Julia’s a practicing pharmacist and pharmacy leader at University of Missouri Healthcare. After experiencing a life-changing medical event, Julia semi-retired in May of 2022 and is now pursuing her best life focusing on family, lifelong learning, and travel.

During the show, Julia and I talk through how an understanding and awards of the type of money household that you grew up in plays an important role in the money script you are passing down to the next generation. Furthermore, we discuss strategies to employ teaching kids about money, ranging from elementary age to young adults.

If you are looking for one-on-one financial planning, look further than the team at YFP Planning. Whether you’re just getting started in the middle of your career or nearing retirement, our team of certified financial planners and tax professionals are ready to help.

You can learn more about our financial planning wealth management and tax services by visiting yourfinancialpharmacist.com. All right, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, First Horizon, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Julia Myers.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:01:17.2] TU: Does saving 20% for a downpayment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a downpayment on a home may take years. We’ve been on a hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home loan with a lower downpayment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon.

First Horizon offers a professional home loan option, AKA, doctor or pharmacist home loan that requires a 3% downpayment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers, has no PMI, and offers a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage on home loans up to USD 726,200. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed.

To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:29.7] TU: Julia, welcome to the show.

[0:02:31.4] JM: Hey, thanks so much for having me. It’s such a pleasure.

[0:02:34.7] TU: I’m very much looking forward to this conversation. You and I had a chance to connect a couple of months back after I learned about your passion for personal finance. It was really a great conversation, where two personal finance nerds were in their element, not only talking personal finance but also shared interest in kids and money, which is our topic here for today’s episode.

Julia, before we jump into today’s topic, kids and money. Tell us more about your career journey in pharmacy starting with what led you into the profession and the work that you did after graduating from the University of Wyoming.

[0:03:06.4] JM: Yay Tim, and thanks so much for having me, excited to share my story today. I got into pharmacy the way most students do, they wanted to help people. I spent a summer in the mini med school program while in high school and realized I very quickly did not want to see another dead body again.

So I headed out to the University of Wyoming, I was a student-athlete for my first year on the swimming and diving team. So, fun fact about me, and then I jumped right from the pool into the library and worked for four years at the University of Wyoming, I got my PharmD and I came out of school with a really clear passion of I want to make money and I don’t want to waste time doing the residency.

So I told my professors and my mentors and preceptors, I want to get out, do clinical work, and make retail money and everybody looked at me and said, “I don’t think that’s possible” and I did it. So I moved to Phoenix and worked for a chain pharmacy there and then very quickly got in the world of HIV and was a clinical pharmacist one day a week in an infectious disease internal medicine primary care clinic, spent seven years in Phoenix and wanted more.

I kind of wanted to stretch my wings and grow in a leadership capacity because what I did in my clinical role was explain to my chain why what I was doing with adding value to what they were doing and I figured, “If I can do that for one chain, why not do that for more?” I moved to Columbia Missouri where I’ve been for the last 12 years at the University of Missouri Healthcare.

I started off as a retail pharmacy manager, managing our hospital-owned pharmacies for our health system and then I started our specialty pharmacy program, some ambulatory pharmacy programs called patient medication liaison technician career ladders, and then most recently, was sort of able to semi-retire and about two years ago, I moved into a part-time kind of consulting role and got really passionate about getting clear on my family values and my vision and that led us to what we get to talk about today.

[0:05:05.6] TU: I love it. I love it. Now we share two, I was a competitive swimmer growing up, so we have another shared connection right there as well. So were you a swimmer or a diver? What was the –

[0:05:13.8] JM: I was a diver. Springboard and platform. I never competed 10-meter but I trained 10-meter. We did Christmas training at ASU in 10P and that’s what made me fall in love with warm weather in the winter because we were swimming outside in December.

[0:05:27.1] TU: So where does your passion and interest in personal finance, where does that stem from and more specifically, the interest you have around this topic, which is kids and money?

[0:05:36.6] JM: I think the passion came from working hard translating into money. That’s the value I grew up with, one of four siblings in my family and we had enough but there were always people around me that had less and always people that had more and I was just fascinated by this concept, and as a mom myself, we’re a blended family of five kids, we range in currently, ages from first grade to a freshman in college and all the grades in between.

And what I found is the things that I learned growing up had a similar look and feel to what I was teaching my kids and then at the same time, there’s a lot of gaps and a lot of opportunity, not a lot of information on you know, when and how and what are some of the more tactical ways that we can engage children in conversations so that they can raise themselves up and move out of the house eventually.

It shouldn’t be a surprise that kids when they grow up that they move out and that is what I’m so passionate about. So to kind of summarize, I inspire and empower families to expand their legacy beyond generational wealth to more generational wisdom.

[0:06:44.8] TU: I love that. I love that vision and the clarity around that vision and you know, it’s going to be fascinating to hear your experiences, first grade to freshman in college. We’ll talk more towards the latter half of this episode about strategies, you know, activities, ideas, conversations we want to have based on you know, age groups and where people are at in the journey, so you’re living it, right?

The spectrum is there and my eldest is turning 12 years soon so you’re going to be able to share some wisdom with me as well, which I’m really looking forward to.

What does the data tell us, Julia? You know, I have a sense in my conversations that this topic is becoming more comfortable. It still feels like it’s somewhat of a taboo topic, although generationally, that feels like it’s shifting but conversations in the household around money.

You know, I often share with people, probably for many, it’s what’s unsaid, sometimes what’s said but what’s unsaid that we often, you know, carry some of those behaviors, some of the stress, the anxiety or perhaps some of the positive behaviors as well but what does the data tell us in terms of how often these conversations are happening in the household as we engage with our kids around money?

[0:07:51.9] JM: Yes, that’s probably the second most important question to ask. The first one is, “Have you had the talk with your kids at home?” and then the other one would be, “Have you had the talk about money with your kids at home?” So about 42% of parents feel confident that their kids are going to be able to manage their finances successfully.

So less than half of parents, just in general, across the board. 24%, about a quarter of parents regularly talk to their kids about money, so that’s really interesting. If you ask young adults, so 18 to 29-year-old young adults, only 39% really feel confident in their ability to manage their finances, and the most staggering of all is going to be 70% of wealthy parents worry their children will become entitled as a result of their inheritance.

So, so many pharmacists and pharmacist couples, dual-income couples, financially free, they retired early, they’ve reached independence and they are worried that their kids are not going to know what to do or even worse, become entitled because of that inheritance.

[0:08:57.1] TU: And you see the seesaw effect. I think you’re speaking to some of it in a literature, where you know, you often may see this in terms of someone who is you know, first generation you know, college or you know obviously, had to work very hard for what they have and then we get to a point of financial independence, they’re building wealth, and they’re worried about that shifting back to the next generation.

So you can see some of these patterns go back and forth. I’m curious to hear your thoughts. There are states, we see an expansion across the country, it’s happening with more states requiring personal finance education in K through 12 but from your experiences, you know, how much of this do you think is valuable foundation from a classroom experience versus you’re just at home?

You’re living life, you’re having dinner conversations, you’re at the grocery store, you’re working through the budgets. Again, you know sometimes I even notice my kids are picking up on Jess and I, my wife having conversations that they weren’t even intended to be a part of but I can tell they’re picking up things and it feels like that learning environment is really where the richness is happening of this topic coming to life.

But perhaps there’s also value in some of the foundational education that we’re seeing, you know hopefully, more in the higher education level as well but also in the K through 12. What are your thoughts there?

[0:10:11.7] JM: Yeah, I agree, it’s an all of the above model. So you can learn and different children learn in different ways. I have a saver at home and you probably have one somewhere in your bunch as well, where everything that they can get their hands on about learning how to save money and save money, and so that topic comes very naturally for us to talk about.

However, I have another one that is a very creative brain, can’t keep $100 in his pocket past Christmas morning. Yet, they receive that same kind of foundation in their academic journey or didactic kind of classroom journey. I love what you said about sharing and kind of pulling them into those conversations.

I will also say that there’s financial literacy and then there’s common sense and as parents, there’s not a textbook that tells us how to do this. We’re all writing this individually, just like our financial plan, your family dynamic is not something that you can find, and check out a library and check all the boxes.

So as you approach these topics and areas, sometimes parents can be the best storytellers, what did you do growing up or how are you raised or what were some of the maybe dumb decisions you did with money and how do you share those in a way that is more memorable and meaningful to your kids. So I think it’s both.

[0:11:29.6] TU: It’s interesting, you just talk about a saver and a spender and perhaps you’ve got others that are in between that or more balanced. You know, I see the same in my boys. My oldest, classic saver, my second born, much more creative, you know, if there’s a need in the moment, you know, I’m going to spend the money.

But what’s interesting is, I find myself projecting my tendency, my feelings around what’s good or bad onto them and I’m trying to be very careful of that and I think that’s one of the things I want to talk about here for a moment is that as a financial personal finance nerd, as someone who is focused on you know, saving for the future as we often say on this podcast, we really believe a good financial plan balances living a rich life today and saving for the future. Both have value.

And I tend to put too much weight into the future at the expense of today, and I think that being careful of both the projection but also attaching the positive or the negative emotion, you know, to the behavior. So you know, I could very easily affirm in my oldest, “You’re doing a great job saving” right? Because that resonates with me.

But I think there’s a period where he’s really going to have to learn, you know, that it’s okay to invest in experiences and make sure that we’re present and how we’re spending money today and perhaps with my, you know, second born that – or he’s enjoying more the moment and the present that we can work on also focusing on saving for the future.

So I’d just be curious to hear your reflection on thoughts of what you’ve experienced both projecting your personal finance scripts behaviors on your kids and how you can help balance some of that conversation.

[0:13:00.7] JM: Great points and I couldn’t agree more. I think when you attach emotions to money, it’s kind of like as a parent, you want to talk about eating healthy or managing your time well but you don’t want to obsess over it, you don’t want to make that all that you talk about at all and so I like to think of money as just a currency, something that you exchange for something that you want.

Whether it’s food or whether it’s time, to me, those really stand out as important to balance. Knowing that how you were raised, everybody has kind of things that they came up with or you know, they remember the one time you went out to eat growing up because it was your birthday and all the rest, you did home-cooked meals and there will be times that as families, you make decisions and choices and you might share with them why you’re doing that.

Why you drive a used car instead of a new car or whatever it is that’s important to your financial plan, pulling the kids into those conversations but then also sharing with them more under the hood of why to me is really important because children today, if you’re listening to the podcast, they’re very likely to be growing up in a different socioeconomic class than how the parents were, than how you and I were raised and I see that creep up everywhere.

I see that as that “E” entitlement word but then I counter it with money is not a four-letter word either. Money doesn’t solve all of these problems and when you put this like a prize, dangled it, you know, someday, always happens. How are you preparing and being intentional for that someday? As parents, kids are going to grow up, we blink and they’re in grade school and we blink and they’re graduating and we blink and they’re moving out of the house, hopefully.

And so at the same time, that someday is going to come and you only have so many days, weeks, months, with them to impart all of this knowledge. So figuring out what’s important to you at home, how do you share those stories and share them well and it takes a little bit all the time.

[0:15:02.4] TU: That’s beautiful, I love the wisdom there. Julie, when we talked to – a few months back, you mentioned a concept that I thought about often since that conversation, which was around the loss of generational wealth. Tell us more about what you see there or what the data shows in terms of the transfer of that wealth and how it may be lost.

[0:15:21.7] JM: Absolutely. Some people call what you’re talking about, that transfer is the short sleeves to the shirt sleeves generation. So basically, folks that are able to become financially independent, retire early, fire movements, they are generating a lot of wealth, and 70% of the time when it gets passed down to that first generation, it will be spent or consumed or divided up in a way that is not materially passing down to the next generation. 70%.

[0:15:52.6] TU: That’s wild.

[0:15:53.7] JM: Taking a generation further, so you and I will have grandchildren maybe someday or grandnieces and nephews, 90% of our wealth that will be passing down will not be material for that grandchildren generation. So you see this in the movies, you see this in Hollywood, right? Wealth is lost because of the shift in generation and there’s a couple of things that really play into that, which is just fascinating and it all comes down to just three really basic things.

Lack of financial literacy. If your kids are growing up without having to worry about where their food comes from and their basic needs, they may or may not be as literate in being an adult. I call it life lessons in adulting, that’s my job as a parent. I think also another thing that plays into that is lack of clear financial goals and expectations. As a parent, what are you expecting your child to do? Do you expect them to never have to work again?

So that short sleeves that you’ve created that they grew up in, might mean that they’ve got to go back to work mid-life or after they graduate. They don’t have just a very expensive piece of paper that’s their diploma, they actually have to use it and then the third and final one I think we as parents but also society, the world we live in today, especially, you know, in the US economy would be that sense of entitlement or that sense of complacency.

That inheritance is going to take care of everything or on the flip side, the government is going to take care of everything, or student loans will all be forgiven and it will all be fine. So those real three things are a big part of how generational wealth is just kind of lost and that’s where I really focus on generational wisdom, in addition to or expanding upon generational wealth.

[0:17:38.2] TU: I love that, right? Because the generational wisdom can transform, lead into generational wealth but sustainable generational wealth, which is really exciting and I think we do have some very unique circumstances right now that make sense that if there’s not some of the lessons learned or the experiences, some of the hard knocks, right? If you will of getting punched in the face and kind of figuring out what you need to do differently.

I always share that in my journey paying off way too much student loan debt and making some you know, very significant but obvious mistakes as I now look back on, “Yeah, well of course, I could have done that differently” those are all valuable lessons at a very early stage of my career that there were some costs to them but if you look at that, in terms of the lessons learned and how you’re able to grow from that over the next 30 to 40 years, there’s some gratitude to those mistakes as well and some of the learning that it can happen in that also.

[0:18:31.4] JM: Absolutely. As parents, sometimes we want to protect the kids and we want to block and tackle from life and then we, when we reflect upon our own experiences, that’s often where we learned the most, was when it was hard and navigating with your kids where our safe places to make mistakes versus where those will follow you for a very long time or be much more detrimental or impactful.

[0:18:53.3] TU: And we’ll talk about strategies here in a bit but I think that’s the mindset I often try to carry is, you know, even as they potentially make some mistakes and learn and you know, maybe there’s some emotion or tears that come from those mistakes, it’s within a very safe sandbox that they’re playing right now and so this is the place, this is the time, you know, to stretch their wings a little bit and let them learn from those mistakes along the way.

Julia, I think we would both agree that it’s important to do some self-reflection on our own experiences with money, the money scripts that we grew up with, the stories that we tell ourselves related to money before we even think about how we’re going to execute and teaching our kids. So tell us more, not only in your own personal experiences but what you’ve read and worked with others, why is understanding these money scripts, what we carry around, the stories we carry with us is so important as we think about teaching our kids about money?

[0:19:45.3] JM: I think it starts with, “Are you a saver or a spender?” Like just knowing that that inherent side of you means there’s somebody else on the other side of the table or the other side of the aisle. Maybe it’s your partner that you’re just kind of at odds with and you’re trying to understand, “Well, from my perspective, it’s this and from their perspective, it’s that.”

For me, I think it’s growing up with what’s the value of money and in an age where I grew up, it was a lot of you work hard for money and you put in your hours and you clock in and you clock out, and then at the end of 60 years, you can retire and so I carry that with me and I find that when I start telling those stories, the average time of employment for someone who is in their 20s is less than a year, right?

And so as we’re hiring pharmacy technicians or as I’m talking to my kids about their first job, you know, the longevity piece is just so very different, and so I think reflecting upon your own stories, maybe you grew up in a scarcity mindset or an abundance mindset or maybe you grew up with Dave Ramsey or you grew up with Robert Kiyosaki, both very different approaches to debt but asking yourself those questions, “Do I think debt is bad?”

“You know, do I think being rich is good?” and then asking your kids those questions that you get very, very different answers. The types of charities that I’m interested in are so very different than my kids and it’s based on maybe some o those stories you told yourself or what you were exposed to growing up and always remembering that the stories our children are telling to your grandchildren and then well after you’re gone, are going to not include you.

So what are you doing today to make sure that they’re either seeing or being part of some of the things that you’re passionate about and then realizing that their freedom and their flexibility is, they’re going to do whatever they want anyway and so you could just hope and pray that they are making the wise choices rather than just the easy choices and our job as parents is navigating those experiences.

[0:21:51.6] TU: Yeah, and I think this validates to me what you’re saying, you know, obviously if you’re talking about kids and money certainly but also even in our own financial plan, whether you’re DIYing it, working with a financial coach, working with a financial planner, it’s so important to peel back the layers here and understand the why behind so many of the decisions that we make or don’t make, right?

You ask some great questions, how do I feel about debt? Does debt have a good connotation, does it have a bad? And you gave the spectrum, right? Dave Ramsey to Robert Kiyosaki, leverage to no debt and what I often share with folks is we have to understand and be honest with ourselves about how we feel without judgment to it before we can enact a plan that’s going to take that into consideration.

Take your future goals into consideration, establish what your risk tolerance is, and maybe there’s some movement on that over time but you know I think often, we carry a lot of judgment around those terms, right? Debt and leverage and how do we feel about that and you know so often, that we’ll go back to the stories that we’ve told ourselves, the experiences that we’ve had along the way.

I would love, Julia, if we could spend the remainder of our time breaking down and picking your brain on how we might begin to approach or think about approaching this discussion of kids and money in different age groups and I’m going to be eagerly awaiting to hear what you have to say about the elementary age and pre-teens because that’s where my boys are at but also that we could talk for a bit about teens and young adults.

I think I love that you consider this as a journey from elementary to young adults and certainly, there’s a lot of work to be done along the way. So let’s just go through this one by one and thoughts you have on you know, within each age group, what are some areas that we might want to focus on. Are there specific types of activities or teaching strategies that we might employ? So let’s begin with elementary age.

[0:23:41.3] JM: Absolutely. So I think you start about mindset shifting, right? So you talk about, “Okay, this is the lesson you need to learn, and here’s the competency that I’m going to use to asses can you perform this task or this skill?” I think there’s an art and a science to it.

So as we got through these different ages, just like what the financial plan age isn’t everything, money isn’t everything and so it’s going to have a different experience. Each family is going to have a different experience. If you’ve never had the talk with money, that talk with your kids. Don’t feel overwhelmed. I want you to feel encouraged and inspired and empowered to pick one or two of these.

Please don’t try all of these, day one, you’ll get, you know, eye rolls and, “Mom, this is a fad and this is going to go away” or that’s not how we do it but what’s different. So lean in and start with that mindset shift of, “I deserve” is often something you’ll hear your kids say. All the ages say it, “I deserve.” We as adults say it, right?

I went to college and I have a PharmD, “I deserve…” Let’s reset that as we go through these, into, “I am responsible for.” What am I responsible for? That kind of gives you some accountability along with that and then when talking with kids and you might have had this question like, “What do you want to do when you grow up? What do you want to do?” And tying everything about what you do as what generates money or what you do as your value in society.

Let’s shift that. Who do you want to be? I’ll say that again not “What do you want to do but who do you want to be?” and if we can approach some of these life lessons with that in the background, the tactical pieces I think come a lot easier. Meal times are my favorite, everybody’s all together, we’re a big family, we have five kids and sometimes you will get the most random of conversations, and other times you’ll get different perspectives.

So I would encourage everyone if you have a regular meal time, maybe you had it a lot during COVID, we’ve kept it since COVID like that’s our protected family time but find a time that kind of works for you but meal time are great to cover some of these topics and especially in elementary. We’ll jump in there first, explaining money like what is money and why do I need it, like why is it so important, right?

How do you really break it down that it’s just a reality of life and it’s important to understand in the way that you learn all these other things about science and math and reading like money is inherently in there. If you study social studies like lots of governments have problems with money, lots of people have problems with money. Why are they fighting over this, can’t they just share? That’s a really great question.

Understanding where money comes from, as our generation I say it usually just was money comes from hard work and that’s an easy answer. As we get into the digital age and as we get into passive income and some of these more advanced topics, I think I am starting to shift my vocabulary a little bit. It is not just hard work but smart work, so how are you working smarter and not harder, which sometimes will come back to bite you when they’re doing their homework and they’re like, “I just worked smarter and not harder.”

So making sure that if even in the elementary age you are paying for chores or you are paying some sort of an allowance, that’s a hot topic, that you are paying for the behaviors you want or you’re incentivizing the performance that and the effort. So it might not be that they clean the windows perfectly but if they worked really hard on it, you want to reward and encourage that just as much as straight As on a report card.

If it was super easy, that might be a different level that each kid and each situation is going to be different.

[0:27:21.4] TU: I have found, Julia, with my boys, high energy, I have found that engaging them and teaching them through engagement is where I find the most value. So there certainly are, you know, we’ve got a regular dinner time at home and as you highlighted well like topics of conversation are very fascinating at the dinner table and what directions we may go and so that occasion will come up and often it will be you know, my son or one of them over here as my wife and I talk and ask a question and bringing them into that conversation.

We’re out at the store and they are asking questions or you know, I’ll never forget my oldest, whose soon to be 12 when he was four or five, we were at the grocery store and he looks at me and he says, “So dad you used that card and then you get what you need” and I was like, “Oh” like lots to talk about here, right? Of credit and debit and how money gets on a card and you know when I grew up I remember vividly my mom paycheck to the bank, cash went into envelopes, we spent from the envelopes.

You could see the direct connection from work to the paycheck to the money to the spending and with all the advances and positives that have come from obviously the technology and what that affords us, you know that could be harder to grasp onto at a very young age like in elementary age.

[0:28:39.0] JM: And I think the envelopes is a great way to do it, especially at the elementary age and I say that money has you know, three purposes because they’ll say, “Well, what’s money for?” and I say, “Saving, spending, and sharing or giving.” Some people use sharing, some people use giving and then I will invite them into that conversation to say, “Here is an example of here’s how we’re spending our money today” or “Here is how I’m saving my money” or Here is how I’m giving or sharing.”

Having those conversations with them about, “Well, where would you like to share your money, where would you like to give some of your money?” or okay, each had a birthday, “What’s an amount that you’d like to save?” “I don’t want to save any of it” “Well, we’re going to talk about you know, how in that envelope you’ve got to have something, and before your birthday, you said that you wanted to have half of it in your savings envelope.”

So it is less about the amount, it is less about compound interest at this age. It’s more about can they see those dollars and can they see them adding up overtime and going to the bank is fascinating. How many kids have actually ever been into a bank, turned in the coins and they count it for them and then they give them a piece of paper and like, “It’s worth this much.” You know, my saver was concerned that he had to turn in all those coins.

He’s like, “Why? I want them back, I just want to know how much is in there” and then like, “No honey” “They went into a machine and they’re not coming back.”

[0:30:04.6] TU: Yes and explaining some of that banking, I had a very similar situation with one of my boys where I think they got cash, maybe it was a check for their birthday and we put it into an online savings account and the view was, “It’s gone, I just gave my money, what the heck?” like it’s gone and you know then you get into all types of conversations about banking and interest and all that when the time is right but it can be very confusing. What about pre-teens and teens? What are your thoughts there?

[0:30:29.3] JM: I think pre-teens and teens, understanding that money is not just for saving, spending, and giving but stepping it up a notch of it’s to provide for your needs and your wants and discerning the difference between what do you need and what do you want and I say a lot if they jumped on this podcast would say the same thing is, “Mom and dad will always provide our needs but we’ve got to figure out how we’re going to work for our wants.”

So we’ll always provide for your needs but we’re going to work together to figure out how to provide for the wants and so I think that those responsibilities and accountability are learned behaviors. If they’ve never had to count back change or they’ve never had to shop from a budget before, now is the time to start pulling in maybe some of that vocabulary, back-to-school shopping depending on if you’ve got boys or girls, there’s different shopping expectations already in the pre-teens.

Annual subscriptions or they think that Netflix and all of the streaming things are just – they just come with the TV, right? So every time you have these little opportunities, you get a new piece of technology and you’ve got to upload it or buying in the app store and currency like they want Roblox dollars, right? They want to figure out how to do this, so often it’s getting under the hood even further to explain like why something was purchased and just as importantly, why didn’t we purchase it and then have them kind of identify, “How do you think that aligns with our family values?”

How do you think that aligns with what we’re doing? Especially in the pre-teens these are some of my favorite situations and tell me if these resonate with you at all is, “Buy this, you can afford it, right?” and so maybe an alternative would be, “We want to spend it differently.” So they see the neighborhood you live in, they see maybe not the background you came from but what they are experiencing today.

The schools they go to, the friends they have, the sports or the activities they’re doing, the extracurriculars, all the blessings that are around them like doesn’t mean that we’re going to continue to fill all of your wants. We as a family are going to spend it differently, “But Mom, I need it. I need it.” “Well, is this a need or is this a want?” having some of those conversations. “I really want this like I really want this.”

“Okay, well, what are you willing to do to earn it?” maybe it’s through good behaviors, maybe it’s through money, figuring out what that currency is, maybe it’s screen time. You know, figuring out what that currency is so that they can identify making wise choices with the results and the outcome that they want and sometimes that’s delayed gratification. Sometimes we make them wait until payday on Friday after they did their chores.

Probably don’t do that at elementary but pre-teens probably could start thinking about a little bit of delayed gratification and then one of my favorites is on the flip side, it’s not just on the spending side but the saving side when they see how much something is. “Well, I could never save that much.” “Okay. Well, how long do you have to save?” So when something starts to get more zeros behind it, especially in your pre-teens.

If you shop for them for Christmas or birthdays like the zeros get bigger and so I will often ask, “How long do you have to save, and what are we going to do to match funds or what are we going to do to think outside of the box?” So my favorite has to be this funny story about, “Okay. Well, we’re saving. Can I just buy a whole bunch of lottery tickets and that will be my investment?”

So we had the conversation about how lottery tickets are not retirement, lottery tickets are not an investment, and that just you know, and we explained how it works and how can you just win a lot of money and what does that mean and so sometimes, I tie back just generational wealth without the wisdom is playing the lottery. It’s leaving your legacy to a lottery rather than being intentional and passing it on.

Pre-teens to me probably should get a bank account. There are many rules around minor bank accounts in different ways to do it, tons of information out there. I am not the expert, I don’t have referral or affiliate links, find something that works for you. Some people have investment accounts, some people let them see it but pre-teens if they are part of the process, they’ll see it’s not easy to just have a bank account.

So even if it’s the exercise of creating a new one, now is a good time. I do think before you get into anything digital like a debit card or credit card even, probably not a pre-teen credit card, physical money. Spending USD 20, giving them a budget and I often let them keep the change, so I let them start to be a little more price-conscious of, “Okay, we’ve got USD 20 to feed three people. Who gets a soda and who doesn’t?”

They will be like, “Ooh, I don’t want a soda, I want an ice cream.” “Well, it spends differently when you got to keep the change” versus “If mom is just going to pay for it and you can have whatever you want.” So I think yeah, pre-teens is really where the rubber hits the road and you start to get the varying personalities that show up, just meet them where they are. There is not a right or wrong, money lessons come sooner than later for some and later for others.

[0:35:29.8] TU: Yeah and what I’ve observed and you have the experience with teens and young adults that I haven’t got to yet is you know, I can see with my oldest who will 12 here this summer like really in the last year, year and a half, the questions are coming forward, the light bulbs are going off, the signs are there, wanting more independence or responsibility and kind of leaning into that and stepping into that.

But I can already tell, his three little brothers are perhaps going to get there a little bit faster because guess what? He’s paving the road, you know we’re working through that with him and you know the other three are naturally involved in those conversations that are asking questions and I think that just speaks to the difference between them, meeting them where they are, and you know really engaging in the conversations along the way the best that you can.

One of the things I’ve heard others do with teens especially later teens or maybe in that gap before they start earning their income if they are working a job is to start shifting some of the dollars that maybe you know you’re going to spend back-to-school clothes if you have a budget for your kids or it could be for certain more the discretionary types of expenses that you know are going to be accounted for in your budget.

But to start to shift those dollars and the responsibility of those spending of those dollars to them for management, for learning, for getting to some of the realizations that you’re talking about here of how far might the dollar go, is it a soda, is it ice cream, some of these decisions and I really like that stepping stone and obviously once you start earning and come, I think that comes to light even a little bit more.

But if I know I am going to spend USD 100 for my 14-year-old on back-to-school clothes, can I give them to him to manage that and kind of work through that as well? What are your thoughts on that?

[0:37:14.7] JM: I love that idea and we’ve actually grown into that. So it started with athletic shoes because you know at some point the ones that you buy for them on sale or clearance just don’t cut it and you know we’re very privileged and blessed to have that problem and so I would give them a dollar amount for their shoes. Anything more than that had to come out of their budget.

I am providing for your needs, you have to queue us if you will, to the want and then that has evolved into the bigger things like prom. You know, you’re going to have to pick between are you doing your hair or your nails and new shoes or eating out. We’re going to give you a set dollar amount and then this year when prom came around, it was, “What about inflation?” because I just reset with the same amount from last year and –

[0:38:00.3] TU: Well, if they’re asking about inflation that’s a good sign so.

[0:38:03.8] JM: I thought that was very entertaining or to the other one that did not go to prom, he’s like, “Do I just get to keep it if I don’t go?” “You bet, that’s for you if that’s what you want to focus on and do instead and do a different social activity.” It is interesting the way that money spends when it has ownership that’s belonging to the kid and that ownership I think is really important.

At this age, especially in teens maybe they’re too busy with extracurricular or they’re too busy with their academics to have a job or a part-time job. I think there’s a balance here and are you working because it’s you need to provide food on our table for us at home? Probably not, maybe it is, and that’s okay, but for us, we actually encourage them to volunteer in something they were passionate about.

It’s a safer place to fall if they no-call no-show. It’s a safer place to interview. It’s less competitive, especially where maybe there is some social apprehension or during COVID there was not a lot of face-to-face interaction. So where these common sense skills and we would actually pay them for their volunteer hours, whether it’s through church or whether it’s through the community organization or the senior center and really encouraging them to take a risk of something they’re interested in outside of our family bubble.

For us, that worked, that might not work for all families, but the value of hard work to me says you can also see that in volunteering, less about earning a paycheck per se.

[0:39:36.9] TU: So knowing you have a freshman in college, let’s talk about the young adult phase, right? Our work isn’t done when they’re a graduate from high school, and I think maybe these are exciting but also tricky conversations, increased level of autonomy and independence, you know, maybe less direct control and observation of decisions that are being made. What advice would you have for folks here as it relates to parenting young adults when it comes to money?

[0:40:02.8] JM: Something does not magically happen when they turn 18 from a cognition standpoint; however, in the letter of the law, they are now fully-functioning voting adults and they will tell you all about that as well. So funny story, a week after my now 19-year-old turned 18 and I share this story with permission, she came home and said, “Hey, I was at the dentist and I signed this thing, I am getting Invisalign,” and I saw the bill, and I saw the paper and the copy.

I said, “Why did you sign this?” she goes, “Well, they said that I should.” Okay, so when it comes to common sense and in all households, there will be those things that you come home and you’re just like, “As long as we can recover from this, I think this is going to be okay.” So it turned out there was a conversation and that she was part of that customer service call that just said, “Oh, that was an estimate, not a real one.”

“We would never have them just sign away and not be able to pay for it,” but I thought that was really interesting that something magical happens and that we, as parents, if you’ve got a senior now, you probably have four or five weeks left of lessons with them, weekend dinners or weekend events. If you’ve got a middle schooler, you might have a few hundred weeks left, that’s it, and so very quickly, you realize you ran out of time before you ran out of things to teach them.

So get the big things right as it relates to what is a value or piece of your family. What are the big things? Are they signing for student loans solo or not? Are you cosigning a credit card for them or are they getting it themselves? Are you walking them through safe ways to navigate borrowing money for whatever it is that they want? Are you making them save up cash for a car or not?

Used cars are expensive these days, and the conversation I had was, “I can’t come up with USD 5,000 in a year and live,” and I’m like, “Well, it’s 13.27 a day” and she’s like, “Oh, okay. We might be able to do that eventually” and so I think that it comes with the financial lessons along with the legality. The problems get bigger as they get bigger, and the risks get bigger. So something as simple that you and I might do, like call customer service and cancel an overcharge.

Where are they looking to see that there were overcharges or incorrect bills? Are they Venmo-ing each other and hitting the purchase icon? That means that you paid your friend actually less because they kept a percentage of it. So what are the technical pieces navigating? Opening a Roth IRA is something that we did with our now 18-year-old, but that is not something I can do on her behalf.

She’s got to do it, and then we can walk through how do you transfer funds, how do you match those funds, all of those things that just magically happen that we learned overtime I think, is compounding in a quick way for young adults for sure. Vehicle research, how many of them have ever been into the DMV? They took their ACTs online, you know? I remember we have two drivers in the house now and both of them were just amazed at the amount of people and the types of people that waited to the last minute, or they’d never had a license, or that there wasn’t a fast pass.

They’re used to being able to buy things as a fast pass or early boarding, and they’re like, “Can’t you do that here?” “Hmm, let’s talk about entitled just a little bit. We’re going to stand here and talk and have a conversation because cellphones aren’t allowed in the line,” and so all the things you’re doing as an adult, renewing insurance premiums, homeowners insurance premiums, pick one thing, teach about it, talk about it and then at some point, it’s going to be teaching them to navigate those landmines.

What are those keywords to really look for or watch for that can be powerful and it can be dangerous? Buying things and investing in yourself, buying assets even though young kids know, “We buy assets not liabilities,” but do they really know what that means? Comes to fruition when you have more zeros in your bank account as a young adult. Whether it’s from a big giant student loan refund or at the beginning of the semester, you’ve got to live on it.

There is a difference between buying assets and just consumerism. There is a difference between signing and cosigning, especially to people you’re not married with or especially with roommates, having a written financial plan and then sticking to it. At the beginning of the semester, you say you’re not going to spend at all, but by the first week of Christmas, if you are hungry and you’re coming home for food and laundry, let’s have some conversations, or you didn’t budget for laundry because these places say, “laundry included.”

But they didn’t realize, funny story, that they are coin-operated laundry and you have to go now and cash in cash for coins for coin laundry. So that’s where that common sense piece comes in, but really safe teaching moments, where are the things that they can kind of slip up on and be okay and where is it when there is a car accident, and you walked away because you didn’t think there was anything worth calling your parents about is a different conversation.

Where does the deductible come from when the car hits the garage? Those things happen, and as parents, we want to jump in and fix and there may be some lessons there that we want to slow down a little bit and say, “We can financially fix this but what’s the lesson here that we might be avoiding if we’re not encompassing them in those conversations?” As kids get older, they start dating, and they date seriously, and for all of the singles out there, prenup is a scary conversation.

Inheritance is a scary conversation but as it takes you into your dating life and your long-term life, I think those in the financial world say, “You know, your best and biggest investment is a healthy and happy marriage” or a healthy and happy cohabitation. Whatever those are, really can have lifelong consequences, especially as it comes to large inheritances and different things like that.

You also have a luxury tax on families that have a lot of wealth associated, either with their name or with their family or with the reputation that they have and you’re going to be targeted for lots of things that might not be as altruistic as you would think and being aware of those and how do you have those healthy conversations. Insurance plans, everybody has a will, I hope if you’re a listener.

If you don’t, stop what you’re doing and start with that and then you have to talk with your family about it. Our kids know that we have a black book, unfortunately, it’s black, that has all the things in it and they know about it and they know that every once in a while, we’re going to have to pull this out and talk about it and not because it’s something we want to pretend doesn’t exist but because that’s part of being an adult too, it’s thinking about us getting older.

[0:46:45.2] TU: So much wisdom there, Julia, that was fantastic and I think it connects to many other topics as well. You know, you talked about estate planning, you mentioned the cosigning, you know just so much to think about the insurance side of the plan and what’s really jumping off the page to me, especially as we think about the conversations with our kids at all stages is really the ability to have an open dialogue and a conversation, which goes back to the foundation we’re setting, the relationships that we have along the way.

To your point, there is going to be more topics and we probably have time to cover with our kids, especially if we’re getting a later start on this and so how can we build to that trust, some of the foundation, the open conversations that when those difficult conversations or situations happen and they’re out of the house and they’re at college, you know we have a foundation to work through those and make sure we’re addressing the lessons to add to the wisdom, right?

Wisdom to the generational wealth as you said earlier, I think is such a powerful way to view this. Where can folks learn more about you, follow your journey, connect with you as they hear this episode?

[0:47:49.0] JM: Absolutely. So you can find me on all the social medias, Julia Myers RX, and if you’re interested in a free download, I’ve got five family financial conversation starters for all ages at generationalwisdom.co, that’s generationalwisdom.co. I would love to connect with you, hear your journeys, share your stories, as parents our job is big and we find support with each other in sharing these stories and these conversations. So looking forward to keeping in touch.

[0:48:21.1] TU: Awesome. We will link to those in the show notes. So Julia, thanks so much again for joining the show.

[0:48:25.6] JM: Thank you so much, enjoy your day.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:48:27.8] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to get started with the preapproval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:49:11.8] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 310: Dusting Off Your Estate Plan

Posted on June 1, 2023May 30, 2023 by Tim U

Tim Baker CFP®, RICP®, RLP® discusses the significance of the estate plan, what it includes, and 3 action steps you can take to button up your estate plan.

Episode Summary

On this week’s episode of the YFP Podcast, we tackle getting your estate plan buttoned up. We’re joined by Tim Baker, CFP®, RICP®, RLP®, Co-Founder of Your Financial Pharmacist, to talk about estate plan preparations. We go through why it’s important to plan your estate, what an estate plan includes, and what happens if you do not have one in place. Tim then shares his thoughts and insights on three action areas; documentation, beneficiaries, and legacy folders.

Key Points From the Episode

Tim shares some statistics related to estate plan documentation and preparations.
Why it’s important to have your estate plan.
Tim defines what exactly an estate plan is and what it includes.
Tim explains what happens if you do not have an estate plan in place.
Who needs an estate plan.
The objectives of having an estate plan.
We dive into three action areas; documentation, beneficiaries, and legacy folders.
Why having things in order makes life and estate planning easier.
How they tackle the estate plan as part of the YFP Planning financial planning process: The First Five.

Episode Highlights

“[The estate plan] it’s one of those things that a lot of people have a blind spot for — [we] don’t like to think about our death or our income or [of] being incapacitated, essentially, which is what the estate plan tries to solve.” — @TimBakerCFP [0:04:48]

“At the end of the day, [an estate plan] is peace of mind in making sure that your loved ones are cared for in a way that is in line with your wishes.” — @TimBakerCFP [0:10:52]

“What the legacy folder is meant to be is that gathering place of all of the things that are important related to this topic. The estate plan documents, life insurance policies, trust documents, and tax returns.” — @TimBakerCFP [0:19:02]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week Tim Baker and I tackle an important and often overlooked part of the financial plan and that’s the estate plan. We get it. It’s not fun to think about end-of-life preparations, so we keep this one short and sweet. Covering what documents you need in place, why it’s important to check your beneficiaries, and why you should create a legacy folder if you don’t already have one.

At YFP planning our team of certified financial planners is ready to help you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. Yes, financial freedom includes ensuring you have your estate plan buttoned up. If you’re interested in joining more than 280 households in 40-plus states that work with YFP planning for one-on-one financial planning and wealth management, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether you’re just getting started in the middle of your career or nearing retirement our team is ready to help. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, you know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. All right. Let’s hear from today’s sponsor the American Pharmacists Association and then we’ll jump into my interview with YFP Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker.

[EPISODE]

[0:01:19] TU: Today’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast is brought to you by the American Pharmacists Association. APHA has partnered with Your Financial Pharmacists to deliver personalized financial education benefits for APHA members. Throughout the year APHA will be hosting a number of exclusive webinars covering topics like student loan debt payoff strategies, home-buying investing, insurance needs, and much more.

Join APHA now to gain premier access to these educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APHA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacists.com/join and using the coupon code YFP. Again, that’s pharmacists.com/join and using the coupon code YFP.

Tim Baker, welcome back to the show.

[0:02:08] TB: Yeah. Good to be here Tim. How’s it going? It is going, I’m excited for today’s discussion which we’re going to keep somewhat brief knowing that the talk around end-of-life planning is admittedly not the most exciting or uplifting topic. We’re going to be talking about exactly that dusting off the estate plan, making sure we take a minute to take stock of where we are at with these important documents.

Tim, perhaps we have some people that are listening where it’s a chance to revisit the work that they’ve already done and to make sure those documents are up to date whereas for others it’s maybe just a point to get started. We’re going to cover some of the basics, obviously, this is not legal advice. We’re not attorneys but it is certainly an important part of the financial plan.

Tim Baker, I think building off of what I just said I would expect that there are some gaps here as it relates to estate planning for some that again similar to insurance, not a really fun topic to think about let alone execute on, but the data really is eye-opening in terms of just how big of a gap this is for many when it comes to their financial plan. Tell us more about that.

[0:03:17] TB: Yeah. There’s a stat out there Caring.com 2023 Wills and Estate Plan Study that said two out of three Americans do not have any type of a state plan document. I would say that with our work with clients, it’s probably more dire than that. I would say that nine out of ten, eight out of ten clients don’t have any type of documents in place. Now typically the further along you are in life, in your career the more dependents that you have or things that major life changes the more that that might force you to take stock, pause a little bit and say, “Hey, this is important,” But it is one of the major overlook components of a financial plan.

It’s important for anyone to have an estate plan, but I think it’s more important if you same thing with life insurance, Tim, if you have a house, a spouse, and mouths to feed. Now those are typically the things that trigger people to start thinking about this, but on the other side of the coin as you’re retiring and moving into that state of your life, it’s important to make sure that it’s there and you have updated information, you might start thinking more about legacy and charitable things that you need to sprinkle into your financial plan, your estate plan that is warranted to dust it off a bit. But yet, it’s just one of those things that a lot of people have a blind spot for, if you don’t like to think about our death or our income or being incapacitated, essentially which is what the estate plan tries to solve.

[0:05:01] TU: Tim, when I present on this topic, I always put a disclaimer out there that, hey, this is not as we’re talking right here, the most exciting part of the financial plan for obvious reasons and the timing of this is really good. I’m actually in the middle of this section of the plan with our lead planner from YFP planning Kelly Reddy-Heffner. I’ve got some outstanding tasks at dragging my feet on to go back and review some of these documents that we established several years ago and update the legacy folder. We’ll talk about that here in today’s session. Unlike other parts when we came off the section on looking at investments and updating our nest egg it’s like, I’m all in. Let’s do those calculations. Let’s get the work done, right? That’s fun. That’s exciting. We’re planning and thinking about the future.

This, not so much. I think, the data certainly shines a light on that, but it’s what we’re going to talk about here today such an important and often overlooked part of the financial plan that we want to make sure that as we’re building other parts of the plan that we’re playing a little bit of defense with the protection part as well. Tim, what exactly is in an estate plan before we get too far into the episode?

[0:06:06] TB: A lot of people when they hear state they think real estate, Tim, right? It’s not that. I mean, real estate could be part of your estate plan, but the estate plan is essentially the process of arranging in life the management disposal of your assets and property at death or even at in capacity. It’s really important. For a lot of people, the people that really value this type of work have either been burned by it themselves or have a family member who’ve been burned by it, but you really want to direct attention to this. It’s also a plan for health and property in the event that you are capacity like I mentioned.

If you are unable to pay your bills or you are unable to care for a child like, what happens? Unfortunately, if you don’t have an estate plan in place, the state in which you live in writes one for you in what’s called the probate process. Oftentimes, more often than not, you don’t want the state, you don’t want the government to basically say, “Hey this is what happens to your property. This is what happens to your kids.” You might have charitable intentions in your brain that are if they’re not written down in a will or something like that, it’s not going to happen. If these are things that are important to you which I think for most humans, making sure that I know who’s going to take care of my kids. We want to make sure that we’re working within a state attorney to do so.

[0:07:34] TU: Next question I have for you, Tim in terms of, who needs one? As folks are listening you mentioned this previously talked about the house, the spouse, the mouths to feed, but generally speaking as our listeners hear this discussion, who really needs to have this front and center part of the plan?

[0:07:50] TB: Yeah. I think if you’re not in that population of people. If I’m a single person and maybe I’m rented or whatever. It doesn’t mean that you don’t need an estate plan. If you want to make sure that you are directing medical decisions and things like that, you need a state plan and you need to go through that. We put the emphasis on this, because again at the end of the day, we don’t want the dependents that are there if you leave us to not have a proper plan, but that doesn’t necessarily diminish any type of healthcare or plan in need if you’re single and you don’t have dependents or things like that.

I would say, everyone. Everyone should have an estate plan. I think working with an attorney I think is the best in class. Obviously, attorneys cost money. There are a lot of solutions out there that are more DIY forms and things like that which are a little bit cringe for me. But yeah, if you’re in the population of you’re a human and you have a heartbeat, it’s just one thing you should at least consider and go down the path to evaluate if it’s for you.

[0:08:53] TU: We think about what we’re trying to address with the specific parts of the estate plan which we’ll get to here in a moment. I think peace of mind this is something that wherever you are in terms of the different phases and areas of life, knowing that you’ve shorted up this part of the plan. I would suspect that is one big part of the objectives of the estate plan, what else would you consider here?

[0:09:15] TB: Yeah. It’s peace of mind. Given a plan for your family for them to execute in terms of like, how you want to be cared for. How you want the property to be handled. All of that stuff. I think it is really an exercise in the efficient transfer of assets. What we’re really trying to do is minimize cost, so that could be things like taxes, probate, all the documents, all that stuff. Make sure that your stuff goes to the right person, so you hear horror stories of like, the life insurance policy goes to an ex, instead of like a current spouse. All that stuff is on the table.

Those are the objectives. Create a plan so than in the event, Tim, that you’re not here that you have a quarterback for someone that can make sure that property and healthcare decisions are taken care of. It doesn’t have to be the same person. These are typically through power attorneys and the kids are taken care of. Could be that you have a testimony trust that’s set up in the event that you and Jess are no longer here, so then the trust would be created for the benefit of the boys. All of that stuff.

It could be, part of the estate plan. It could be directions that you give directly to your doctor. That’s called the Living Will. That says, “Hey if I’m – I don’t want a breathing tube or I don’t want a feeding tube.” Those types of things. Every state’s going to be different. There’s lots of stuff to cover, but the objective, I think at the end of the day I would put at the top of the list is peace of mind. Peace of mind for you. Peace of mind for the family. The cost and all that stuff is important too, especially if you’re looking at larger estates.

[0:10:52] TU: Yeah.

[0:10:52] TB: But at the end of the day, it’s peace of mind in making sure that your loved ones are cared for in a way that is in line with your wishes.

[0:11:01] TU: This is one of those areas too, Tim, I see there can be momentum that comes from not only having this complete but also having the clarity and the peace of mind of the documents in place. It reminds me of some of the discussions we’ve had around, whether it’s doing an estate calculation as we plan for retirement, whether it’s figuring out how we’re going to tackle the student loans. Sometimes those numbers won’t change dramatically in the short term, but if we can have some of the peace of mind and the clarity around knowing that we’ve done some of the calculations, the evaluation. We’ve considered different factors and now we have a plan that we’re working towards. That momentum can be really powerful as we look at the financial plan at large.

I think the same thing here that this is one of those looming things of like, I know I should do it. I don’t really want to do it. There’s a lot to consider here. It’s overwhelming. It’s confusing. It’s not fun to think about. But once we can see through this and again not something that we just complete and put up on the shelf. We want to revisit this as well. Really, I think gives us a space to be able to move forward with other parts of the plan, as well.

[0:12:04] TB: Yeah. I feel like once this gets checked off it’s a little bit of like, all right like, we have more capacity to look at other things and be excited about some other things knowing that this is taking care of. Again, it’s not necessarily that we just throw it on the shelf and we never look at it, but for a lot of people just to get over that hump and having those documents in place is a big boulder to roll up the hill. Yeah, super important to get it in there. Then our job as planners is to dust it off every once in a while and say, “Hey, what does this look like? Are there changes that need to be made etc.?”

[0:12:41] TU: In terms of action items. Let’s talk about three areas that folks can think about. One would be getting the documents in place and we’ll do a quick mention of what those documents are. Again, the work to be done there really with an estate planning – estate planning attorney, ideally in collaboration with your financial planner. The second would be considerations around the beneficiaries. Then the third, we’ll talk about the legacy folder. Tim, as we move into action items here, number one get your documents in place. At a high level, what are the documents that folks should be considering?

[0:13:12] TB: Yeah. I’m just looking at the estate checklist that Shayna and I have in our financial planning portal, so I can just go through these.

[0:13:19] TU: Yeah.

[0:13:20] TB: Imagine a list on the left and then my name and Shay’s name on the top of the column. These are things like a will. Essentially, once you pass away the court in probate will read your will. Then if it’s a valid will, they’ll basically execute to that. Do you have a will in place? Power of attorney. Really, two types of power of attorney. There could be one for property. Basically, someone that’s going to take control of your bank account, your credit cards, your investment accounts. Either in the event that you’re incapacitated or at your death and figure out work with the courts to dispose of those or move those to the beneficiaries in an orderly fashion.

It could be a Living Will. A Living Will is those instructions that are made out to the doctor. Every state has a different term for it, but you would say, “Hey, do not resuscitate.” Any of these conditions. It could be a Living Trust. A Living Trust is essentially, where you are – if she and I had a – in some states, this makes a lot of sense, but if Shay and I decided to set up a Living Trust we would essentially, instead of our house being in our names it would be in the Baker family trust and all of those assets essentially avoid probate. The trustee in that moment would essentially take control of the trust and any assets that are inside of it whether it’s a house, an investment account, or whatever, the trustee is in charge of that.

It could be if you have kids, it could be like a testimony trust for the benefit of a minor, so some of those become in force or they’re created at one’s death. That would be another thing. Is just, there’s a trust, there are lots of different flavors of trust, but that would be another one that I would ask the attorney about to see if it’s in your best interest to create those. Then the last thing, if I didn’t mention this already is a check on beneficiary designations and get to that a little bit more, but those are the main documents.

[0:15:13] TU: Great overview. We also talked about this with two state plan attorneys, in Episode 222 of the YFP Podcast. We’ll link to that in the show note. We had a good conversation with Nathan and Notesong. I love the way they break down and explain these documents in a very easy, to understand way. Even as you’re engaging and working with an estate plan attorney again, I think it’s valuable to feel like you have some background knowledge and exactly what do these terms mean. That’s number one, get your documents in place. Tim, number two. You alluded to which is something that I’ve overlooked in days gone by. It’s really considering the beneficiaries, especially after you have some of these documents in place. What are the areas that we want to consider as it relates to the beneficiaries and why is this important?

[0:15:57] TB: Yeah. Again, looking at Shame and I’s financial planning, software here, we’re looking at the beneficiary rundown. It shows all of our different accounts from check-in, savings, CDs, investment accounts, our life insurance, and that type of thing. It basically, says like this is the account balance and then like, what’s the death benefit? Typically, if it’s like a cash account or investment, it’s the same. For a life insurance policy, it won’t have an account balance, but it’ll have – unless it’s permanent, but it’ll have a death benefit.

Account balance column, death benefit column. Then it has a primary and a contingent beneficiary. Essentially, if I were to pass away all of my stuff would essentially go to Shay. If we were to pass away, then all of our stuff would go to the contingent beneficiary, which might be direct to our kids or in a trust in the name that’s created for the kids’ benefit. Going through this exercise is really, really important, because again, you hear those horror stories of like this – my stuff didn’t go to the right person and that’s causing pain and additional pain and anguish to the surviving heirs.

Having a checklist to go through and make sure that things go to the right people is really, really important. If you haven’t done that in a while, it’s important to do so and a lot of people don’t have a beneficiary set up. If that’s the case, then that goes through probate. If there isn’t a beneficiary that IRA for example goes right to Shay or goes right to the trust and that is good, because it avoids probate and you don’t have to worry about that in court. That’s a really important thing to make sure that you’re on top of.

[0:17:46] TU: Yeah. I think the thing that might get overlooked here, Tim, is maybe someone has a spouse where on an IRA or on a life insurance policy whatever it may be where before they set up some of their state planning documents. It might be the spouse and vice versa that are listed as a beneficiary and depending on how they set up the trust in the estate planning documents, they may need to switch some of that over time.

Again, I think it just speaks to yes, there’s a lift up front of work to be done, but as other parts of the plan evolve this is something we want to be revisiting every, so often. We’ll talk about what this looks like in relation to our planning services and how the planning team is regularly engaged in this activity. That’s number two. Check your beneficiaries. Number three. Tim, again, I think such an important part of this process especially from a peace of mind is around this concept of a legacy folder. Creating one if you don’t have one. Updating one if you already have one. Tell us about what this looks like.

[0:18:43] TB: Yes. If you’re all buttoned up in those other areas of the docks in place and beneficiaries, that’s great. You’re ahead of a lot of people. However, if your loved ones don’t know where to find everything like the documents or passwords like, it makes their life a lot harder. What the legacy folder is really meant to be is that gathering place of all of the things that are important related to this topic. The estate plan documents, life insurance policies, trust documents, and tax returns. You could include something there like a side letter.

Tim, if I pass away, I want my ashes to be sprinkled on a linking financial field that’s not going to be in an estate plan, so things like that, that you want your loved ones to know about, maybe final wishes and even like passwords like, I can’t tell you Tim, how many – we probably have 10,000 passwords each day. Where are those? How do your loved ones access them?

I think if you can create a legacy folder and either put it in a fireproof safe or a safety deposit box or some people do this electronically and you can give that to a loved one along with a death certificate, they’re able to operate and basically manage your estate much, much easier than if they’re trying to look for things and dig through folders and drawers and parts of the house that they don’t necessarily know where to go.

It’s that, hey, this is a folder or a filing system that has all of the things that are important related to this topic that your loved one knows about. Communicate to them where this stuff is. It’s really important, too. This could be important for your own stuff. This also could be important for if you are the executor or the person for say a parent. It’s important to have your house in order, but I think it’s also important that if you are the person that might be taking care of elderly parents that you know that what the plan is for them, as well.

[0:20:52] TU: Yeah. Have a copy of those documents as well on hand. This reminds me, Tim. One of the things you’ve said before on the podcast is for you, I think when the clocks change you use that as a signal to pull your credit, right? Do check in your credit report.

[0:21:04] TB: That’s right.

[0:21:05] TU: I think a similar rhythm here like whatever that is, especially with how quick information can I change whether it’s passwords, whether it’s new accounts, new documents, transfers of accounts like making sure that you’re looking at this on the regular. I love what you said, right? That we can do such a great job in getting all these documents together, but do others and our loved ones know where these are at in the event that something would happen that this is needed.

This reminds me much, Tim of a great conversation I had way back when with Michelle Cooper who wrote a book on the topic of her journey as a widow to Love, Happiness and Financial Independence navigating some of the challenges that can come when you lose a loved one. Not only, obviously, emotionally what’s happening at that moment, but also then being able to navigate through that difficult time, especially if you’re in a situation where maybe one of the people in a household taking over a more active role of the finances, making sure that all parties have a good understanding, but what’s going on and where those documents are located.

This is an area, Tim where I get a lot of peace knowing that. Hey, if my financial planning team has access to these documents or knows where this information is as well, as parents, and in-laws, or whoever is going to be an integral part of the execution. That also helps in understanding that there’s more than one party that’s going to be involved to be able to sort this out and to be able to work through this.

[0:22:33] TB: Yeah. Again, if you put yourself in maybe in the state of a grieving spouse and you’re working with a planner that has visibility on this type of thing like the life insurance companies or whoever you’re dealing with. They’re not coming out of the woodwork to pay a claim. I would be like, “Hey, what about this?” Again, not to be morbid, but I would say, “To Jess. Hey, what about this life insurance policy?” Or this that she might not be thinking of because that’s not where her brain is.

I was talking to a loved one recently. I think it was something like some type of insurance policy. He was the executor for another family member. He was like, trying to find this document. He got lucky like he found like the policy that he was able to put in a claim, but they’re not like, if something happens, they’re not like banging down the door for them to pay you money. If you have everything in order here, it just makes life a lot easier.

[0:23:33] TU: Yeah.

[0:23:33] TB: And from a financial perspective it makes things a lot easier to get the support that you need for the heirs, for the dependents that are left behind.

[0:23:44] TU: Tim, do you see for folks that choose to do the legacy folder electronically, I would assume there’s still somewhat of a hybrid approach, right? I’m thinking about things like social security cards, birth certificates, and other things that they might want to have physically of court, a physical document in a fire safe proof, whereas other things they want to house electronically that makes it for easier updating. Probably, I’m curious from your perspective or either how you and Shay do it. Do you see folks doing more, hey, everything is hard copy in a safe or try to do as much electronic, a hybrid, what do you see?

[0:24:19] TB: Yeah. I mean, I think there’s some services out there that trying to do like an electronic offering. For us it’s like, it’s both. I’m a big Google user, so like we have a folder that has essentially everything in it. We use a password vault. There’s a document that has instructions related to that.

[0:24:42] TU: Yup.

[0:24:43] TB: But then there are some things that the way that I do, it’s “see hard copy” and then there’s a spot that, because I’m like, for me to go back and scan some of these things or like policies like, I don’t know, but we got time for that, Tim. It’s a hybrid approach. I think the ease of use of being able to share some folders electronically using something like Google along with some of the paper stuff is how we’ve pieced it together so to speak, yeah.

[0:25:13] TU: Tim as we wrap up, I want to talk about how we functionally execute on the estate planning part of the financial plan as relates to the financial planning services that our team offers at YFP Planning. I would say to rare that someone comes up to the door interested in our services and saying, “Can’t wait to work with you guys. We’re going to work on the estate planning part.” –

[0:25:32] TB: That’s right, yeah.

[0:25:32] TU: The insurance part of the plan. Usually, it’s, “Hey, we’re focused on saving or investing for the future, retirement planning, perhaps those folks earlier in the journey student loans, home buying, growing family, etc.” But this is one regardless that we’ve got to make sure that we’re looking at whether it’s the first thing on the list or not. What does this look like in terms of the planning team and the service we offer and how we execute on this?

[0:25:55] TB: Yeah. The way that we do this. The way that we tackle the plan and then this part of the plan is we have the first part of our engagement with clients, we call the first five. The first five is really designed to go through the critical pieces of a financial plan. The first one is, get organized. This is where we are going to do a deep dive into your client portal. We’re going to look at your checking, your savings, your investment accounts, your house, your mortgage, your student loans, all of the things with an eye for what’s your net worth? What’s the quantitative starting point?

The second meaning of the first five is we call scripture plan which is all about, now that we know where we’re at from a balance sheet perspective, from a net worth perspective where we’re going, so like, what are the goals? Like what’s important to you? This might where you might say like, “I want to take that trip to Paris. I want to maybe go down to part-time or four days a week. I want to retire in the next five years. I want to start volunteering.” It’s like a roadmap of where we want to go. For us to be able to advise clients we need to know where they’re at balance sheet and where they want to go balance sheet and like the goal stuff.

Then from there, it’s a plan overview. We’re looking at hash positions, savings plan, debt management, student loans for a lot of our clients and making sure that we do have the balance sheet and the goals right, so we’re confirming that. Planning for major purchases that type of thing. The fourth thing is typically what we call wealth building, so that’s the investments retirement planning, making sure that we’re moving accounts over for us to manage, allocating that in a way that’s in line with the risk profile, potentially looking at building retirement paychecks that type of thing, social security stuff.

Then the fifth one, typically, is wealth protection. This is where we really get into things like life insurance, disability insurance, or through the heavy hitters. It could be health insurance, other things, property casualty insurance, but also the other protection is the estate plan. In the absence of an estate plan, we’re going to recommend that they work with an attorney to get the state plan in place or it could be reviewing that and making sure that it’s up to date, it’s in line with what they need. They’re not exposed in any way and that, it’s in line with their wishes.

Then from there, the plan goes into more of a plan review and implementation. It’s the things that drives that agenda and the things that the client wants to talk about, the things that we feel are maybe the bleeding head wounds like, “Hey did you sign your will? Did you sign your state documents yet?” Make sure that those are in force. The things that are — we view as exposure or risks to the plan and then our regularly scheduled program. Hey, it’s been two and a half years, Tim, since we actually like, did a formal beneficiary review. Let’s get into the client portal, go through these accounts, and make sure, oh, you add it. You bought the CD, where is that going to go? Or we added this Roth IRA, can we check the primary condition, and beneficiaries and make sure that we’re sprinkling those types of checks in as we go? It’s been a while since we looked at the credit report. Let’s look at that.

That’s our rhythm. That’s our cadence, so we want to make sure that throughout the course of our relationship with clients that we’re touching all parts of the financial plan not just the parts that are exciting like maybe investments. Unfortunately, the estate plan falls to the bottom of the barrel. We want to make sure that we bring that up from time to time. We want to make sure it’s there, but then also, it’s current and in line with everything that the client wants.

[0:29:41] TU: Its a great overview. I think that’s valuable for our listeners to hear. I think sometimes when folks are looking at financial planning services, we throw that term out there generically and that can and does look wildly different from one firm to another about what they cover, what do they not cover, how often do they meet, as we’ve talked about before variants and fees and charges and scope of services and fiduciary responsibilities or not. All of these things can be different and to get a sneak peek into the first five and what to expect with the planning team obviously estate planning as one part, but a lot of work to be done getting that plan set up to begin with as well as ongoing.

We feel strongly Tim, whether someone’s coming in the door, “Hey, I’m near retirement and I’ve got three, four, five million dollars saved.” Or they’re coming in the door with a net worth of negative three hundred thousand dollars, because of student loans and other liabilities that it’s important that we walk through methodically. Those steps as we’ve seen that – in some cases maybe they’ve done some of that work, but often there’s some opportunities to be able to shore that up and make sure as you point out before we develop the path forward of whatever that plan is, whether that be starting at the beginning of saving or withdrawing some of that as they go into retirement. We got to have a good vision of where we’re going. We got to get organized before we can even do that.

Great stuff, Tim. Dustin off the estate plan quick overview as we mentioned we’ll link to some of the previous episodes that we’ve talked about on this topic. One that will revisit occasionally as well for folks that are looking to learn more about YFP Planning, this comprehensive financial planning services. You can go to yfpplanning.com. We’ll also put a link in the show notes where you can book a free discovery call to learn more. Thanks so much, Tim.

[0:31:21] TB: Yeah. Thanks, Tim.

[OUTRO]

[0:31:22] TU: Before we wrap up today’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, I want to again thank our sponsor the American Pharmacists Association. APHA is every pharmacist ally advocating on your behalf for better working conditions fair PBM practices and more opportunities for pharmacists to provide care. Make sure to join a bolder APHA to gain premier access to financial educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APHA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code YFP. Again, that’s pharmacist.com/join using the coupon code YFP.

As we conclude this week’s podcast an important reminder that the content on this show has provided you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog, posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless, otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week

[END]

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YFP 308: YFP Planning Case Study #6: Balancing Retirement Savings With a Major Purchase & Education Planning

Posted on May 18, 2023May 17, 2023 by Tim U

The team at YFP Planning discusses a case study that includes balancing retirement savings with a major purchase and education planning.

Episode Summary

If we don’t earmark our cash for specific items, we’re very likely to spend it. In this YFP Planning Case Study, Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP®, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA®, and Angel Melgoza, MS CFP® use a hypothetical couple (Joe and Jane Script) to discuss balancing retirement savings with a major purchase and education planning. After being provided with an overview of the couple’s finances and their goals for the future, Kelly and Angel pick apart their investment approach and offer advice for how they could make it more sound. From the importance of saving with the intention of avoiding getting hit with a surprise tax bill, this episode will make you think more deeply about the way you approach your financial plan!

Key Points From the Episode

Setting the scene for the Joe and Jane case study.
Joe and Jane’s net worth and their assets and liabilities.
Goals that Jane and Joe have for the future.
Kelly and Angel share their thoughts on the first steps Joe and Jane should take to optimize their financial situation.
How Angel recommends Jane and Joe deal with the funding of their children’s college education.
The importance of being open to making adjustments to your financial plan.
Working out which elements of your financial plan to prioritize.
Why many people end up saving less money than they could.
How to avoid getting hit with a surprise tax bill.
Angel’s approach to insurance.
Documents that you should have in place to protect your family in case of your death or disability.

Episode Highlights

“When I talk to clients and I look at their balance sheet, the first thing I want to make sure is that you have a sound emergency fund.” — Angel Melgoza [0:08:15]

“We can’t do everything. We have to prioritize and decide what makes the most sense to overall have the best plan for the future.” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner [0:13:16]

“We tend to save, but we also tend to spend anything that is not earmarked.” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner [0:19:05]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00] TB: What is up, everyone? Welcome to our sixth edition of YFP Planning case study. Really excited to get into this one today. We’re going to talk about Joe and Jane Script. It’s a really creative name that we have here. We’re going to do something a little bit different for this particular case study. We’re going to basically set the client up in our planning tool, which is RightCapital. We’re going to stay, not necessarily so much in a spreadsheet, but in the planning tool and outline the details of Joe and Jane Script and their family and what they’re looking for. I am once again joined by our lead planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner and Angel Melgoza.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:00:36] TB: Really excited for you guys to be here to chat about the scripts. What’s going on? Kelly, first to you, what’s going on in life?

[0:00:43] KRH: Not too much. End of tax season, doing quarterly meetings and hoping that it stops raining in Pittsburgh at some point.

[0:00:53] TB: Yeah. Crazy weather. When you guys were out here after tax season it was like spring-esque. Now it’s really cold again. It’s super weird. I put a vote for warmer weather here too. Angel, you’re probably accustomed to some warmer weather. How’s it going where you are?

[0:01:12] AM: Very warm. Hot and humid actually. We’re preheating to our summer already. Yeah.

[0:01:18] TB: Awesome. Let’s get into it guys. I’m going to share my screen, so apologies for those listening on the podcast, because this will be very visual. We’re going to talk through some concepts, but if you’re interested, check out the YouTube channel, we will have our beautiful smiling faces on the YouTube with a screen share of what we’re working through with the client. I’m going to work through this. What we’re looking at here is a snapshot and what this tells us at a very high level just what is going on with the client. I’m going to dig into some of the juicy details about Joe and Jane; the job, the balance sheet, some of the goals.

The first thing I’m going to look at for Joe and Jane is just like where are they at? What are they doing? What’s the family look like? Joe recently accepted a new MSL job based out of Louisville, Kentucky. They’re both Louisville, Kentucky, University of Kentucky grads. That’s where they went to pharmacy school. Joe is an MSL. Jane is an oncology staff utilization pharmacist. They have twins Addison and Sean, age 11. Their home is in Louisville. They filed their taxes jointly, but they’re actually from the Boston area. They have a lot of family in the Boston area.

The balance sheet really looks like this. I’m going to click into the balance sheet. Their balance sheet at present, their net worth is about, we’ll call it $894,000. They have about $1.3 million in assets with about $386,000 in liability. The assets break out a good amount in cash accounts, so they’re joint checking, they have $35,000, they have 80,000 in joint savings, so that’s 115,000, that’s liquid. Then they have a non-qualified or a joint taxable account that has about 15,000 in it.

Then most of their investments are in qualified assets. Joe has an old 401k that he’s rolling over to YFP planning for us to manage that has about $196,000 in it. He’s currently contributing to his new 401k with his new MSL job that has 5500. Jane, her 401k is currently at 236,000. Joe has a Roth, it has about 85,000. He also has an HSA that has about 15. Then the kids, they both have 529s that are identical, about 19,000 that they’re currently contributing to. They own their home in Louisville. The property’s worth about 575,000 with a mortgage that has about 281,000 left.

The other liabilities they have is a joint credit card that has about 15,000 that they normally pay off. They have a HELOC for home improvement that’s hanging out there that has about 19. Jane has a car note at 28. Then Joe still has some lingering student debt that’s about 12,500. One of the surprises that they had when they went to file, we were talking about tax season earlier guys, is they found out that about $30,000 tax bill and those are some surprises that are not fun to get, but they basically have to figure out how to pay off this $30,000 tax bill to the IRS.

Overall net worth about 893. Now, to pivot to some of the goals that they have, they very much want to make sure they get back to Boston to see family. They want to make sure that they’re supporting the twins’ activities in sports. Between the two of them have more frequent date nights. From a career lifestyle, they want to make sure that in the future, they have the ability to work less if they can. They’d love to be able to purchase a vacation home, maybe pivot into a retirement home in Florida. They’d love to take a domestic, annual big trip with the family.

One of the big goals that they have is to take the whole family to Australia before the kids go off to college in the next seven-ish years. Then they have some legacy goals where they want to be able to pay 100% of the twins’ college, at least for the four years of undergrad. They want to be able to give back to the University of Kentucky and also some other charities. That’s the picture of where they’re at. I know we have some topics of discussion listed here, but Kelly, what would you say jumps out at them. We didn’t get really too much into some of the insurance stuff, which we can dip into. Obviously, they have some debt that they have to work through, but what are some of the big things that you would tackle first with Joe and Jane?

[0:05:30] KRH: At first glance, definitely a bit of a large cash position, so trying to figure out what is their spending to see like what the emergency fund should or could be and then seeing if they have some resources left to take care of some of the debt. The little student loan out there would probably be top of mind, making sure the credit card really is paid off each month. Those would be really important things to tackle early on, I would say.

[0:06:05] TB: Yeah. I think one of the cool things that the tool has shown us is just a liquidity analysis. How much should you keep in that emergency fund? The target that we have here, if you assume current monthly expenses, which I think we should confirm, right? That’s one of the things that sometimes you can put in a box like what we spend, but when we actually connect actual spend accounts, it’s more than that. But their target for their emergency fund is about 40,000 and their actual liquidity between their checking and their savings is about 115.

There’s probably a scenario that we could peel off some of those extra dollars and potentially pay off the credit card to your point, Kelly, to make sure that that is completely paid off, which the balance is 15,000 at this point. You also have a 19,000-hour home equity, which was one of your highest interest rates. If we look at the interest rates, and again, we didn’t necessarily go through this from the jump, but the mortgage is not bad, 281,000, three and a quarter percent. Home equity, line of credit, 6% which is a little bit higher.

Jane’s car, which is about 28,000, 4%. Joe’s student loan, three and a half percent, so not terrible. The IRS would have to figure out what the payment plan is for that. I just put in a placeholder of three percent. Then the joint credit card, obviously 24%. Making sure we tackle this first. I agree. I think something along the lines of like right sizing in the cash position to either clear out debt or the conversation that we could have is does it make sense to put dollars towards things like an education goal or retirement?

Again, I wouldn’t necessarily be sleeping very soundly at night if I knew that I owed the IRS money or if I had a credit card balance hanging over my head. I think a good analysis to go through with the two of them, just to see how do we deploy these extra resources, so to speak? Angel, how about you? When you look at their scenario at a high level, what jumps off the page for you?

[0:08:12] AM: I have to echo Kelly’s thoughts here. Really, when I talk to clients and I look at their balance sheet, the first thing I want to make sure, because of course you have two little ones, is that you have a sound emergency fund. If you have an excess cash position, I think the second thing I’d like to look at is, of course, any debt that’s over. My rule of thumb is usually 6%. I think credit cards fall within that. Paying down that is just as good as investing. It goes back to the old saying of paying, saved as a penny earned.

[0:08:43] TB: Yup. Yeah. I think that’s one of the things is like, if you can guarantee a 6% investment, that’s not terrible. That’s where the S&P is, once you account for inflation over long periods of time. Definitely, looking at the debt would probably be first on the list. How about Angel, when you look at one of the big things that they have that I think is probably not one that we get a lot of in terms of, “Hey, this is my education plan for my kids,” it’s more of, “I’m not really sure how I want to approach the education.”

A lot of pharmacists, again, they feel the pain and the sting of student loans. They would rather not replicate that for the kids, but when you look at, “Hey, we want to send both of them 100% for four years in the next seven years or so,” how would you break that down for them in terms of the feasibility of it?

[0:09:36] AM: I mean, twins are 11 years old right now. They’re not too far behind on the saving aspect of it, but of course, we want to make sure that we try to meet our clients’ goals as much as possible within the confines of keeping things realistic. When I say realistic, of course there’s so many ways to fund college from student loans to savings and cash flow. But there’s really only one way to fund your own retirement. When I get clients that are adamant and that’s just the number one most important thing to them, I just like to just go back and say, “Okay, well, what happens if you have to work a little longer to do this. Four or five, six more years? Are you okay with that?”

One of the things that I love about RightCapital that it shows us, is there going to be a shortfall? If there’s a shortfall, how do we right that ship? But from a rule of thumb perspective, I mean, kids are still 11 years old. We don’t know if they’re going to get scholarships. We don’t know if they’re even going to be one to go to college. I would say a good starting point is maybe funding a third of the college tuition.

[0:10:40] TB: Yeah. If we look at the analysis on the tool and we messed around with the twins. We basically said, “Hey, both Joe and Jane are University of Kentucky grads so maybe one of their kids will go to Kentucky.” We picked Sean as the recipient of that. When we looked at that and we looked at Sean’s college goal and we basically looked up University of Kentucky, one of the interesting things is we can actually click in and we can choose either in-state or out-of-state. If we assume that we’re going to be in-state, the total cost for in-state tuition is about 35,600 per year.

If we compare that to Addison’s college goal, it’s actually more. Addison’s college goal, if we use a goal to fund a public four-year in-state, it’s actually a little bit less at 28,000. But the interesting thing is right now what they’re saving, they’re saving about 200 bucks per month. $2,400 per year into the twins’ 529. $400 total, but separate 529s. If you look at the analysis, Sean, if we assume he’s going to the University of Kentucky, they’re not at 100%. They actually have a funding shortfall of about $157,000. That’s about 23% to the goal.

Now Addison should be a little bit ahead, because if we use the four-year average versus University of Kentucky, she’s at 30%. The funding shortfall is about 112,000. This is probably an exercise, Kelly, in saying, “Hey, this is the reality of where we’re at today.” We know the goal is 100%. We’re pretty well below that. We’re not far from that one third rule that we always talk about. How would you approach it? I mean, Angel talked about affecting retirement, but maybe there are some levers that we can pull today to get closer to that, but how would you approach that with this particular client in terms of looking at the numbers?

[0:12:47] KRH: Well, I think once you talk through some of those goals, I do think that Angel is right, like that conversation of how it directly impacts other goals. Most people do wish to retire at some reasonable point in time. I think that the next step is to show how retirement’s looking and how on track the household is for that. Often, we can’t do everything. We have to prioritize and decide what makes the most sense to overall have the best plan for the future. This already looks, like you said, Tim, in the range. We’re at 30% for Addison, a little bit lower for Sean with decisions. I would look at retirement and I’d also start laying the groundwork for having conversations with their children as well about what is going to be available and how to make good choices. Yeah, I guess I would look at the retirement numbers next to see, do those look like they’re in great shape? How are investments flowing for that?

[0:14:00] TB: Yeah. I think that’s a great segue. I do want to come back to the tax bill, because I know we’ve had some discussion about that off-camera and what that looks like. Let’s look at the retirement analysis. Angel, can you set the tone here in terms of what we’re looking at? Right now, what they’re showing is a 54 probability of success, which doesn’t look that great. To Kelly’s point it might be where we’re looking at things like the vacation home that we haven’t yet talked about, sending the kids 100% through college, working longer in retirement and maybe rank order in those things in terms of what’s most important. How would you approach, you know, this is more of a dire outlook in terms of how the probability of success is looking here?

[0:14:48] AM: One of the things I like to go over with clients is the 30,000 square foot view of it all before we really dive into the details and just let them know, “If we keep on going at the pace you’re going. If we keep your goals the same, that 54% or as I like to say, five out of 10 times you’re going to have to make adjustments. When adjustments need to be made, that’s what we’re here for to help you out with, of course.” That’s what this probability really says. I mean, the software in and of itself runs thousands of simulations of probabilities. Of course, because the clients are a little younger, there’s more than that. But it lays a good foundation to say there needs to be a change done and that’s what we’re here to help you with.

[0:15:30] TB: Yeah. I think one of the things that we haven’t even talked about is just even like the way that they are invested might be a little bit more conservative compared to maybe what they need to be. I think looking in terms of other levers to pull might be where you don’t necessarily have to save any harder, but they have to maybe take a little bit more risk with their investments. That might be something to look at.

Yeah. I think one of the things that can be lost here is that if you look at it, it’s like half the time you’re going to fail, half the time you’re going to succeed. It’s not really about that. It’s really, to your point, it’s like, we’re going to make adjustments on the fly meaning like, if we don’t do these things, the idea is that at the end of the rainbow when the plan is over is typically at Joe and Jane’s death, there’s still money there. If there’s not, then that’s what they would say is a failure, so to speak.

Let’s talk about the Florida home. One of the big things that we were looking at when we were talking about their goals and some of the cash flow, we’re looking at a blueprint of, “Hey, we’re going to take it in annual vacation every year.” I use this nerdy lifestyle cargo, some new vehicle every seven years. Q7Y, so nerdy script shorthand. We have an Australia trip baked in here. What I basically did was just added it to the 10,000 that we’re saving, plus the 15. We’re saying like 25,000 for a family of four to go to Australia. No idea what that costs, so that would be something that we’d have to adjust as we approach that.

Then the big outflows that really occur at Sean and Addison’s college in 2030 when Joe is 50 and Jane is 46, and really for the next four years. Then what he’s saying, or what they’re saying is that, “Once the kids are out of college, we’d like to be able to move on a vacation home.” I think what we’re seeing is that if we assume a vacation home is half a million and we put 20% down, we just see the plan be a bit exasperated. It’s like, “Hey, we don’t have enough cash money to put towards this.” It’s starting to pull from things like retirement accounts, which we would say probably don’t want to do that, correct?

[0:17:43] AM: That’s right.

[0:17:45] KRH: Yes.

[0:17:46] TB: Then what’s the process here? As again, it goes back to what’s most important? How would you – Kelly, how would you break this down in terms of just prioritizing the goals for the client?

[0:17:56] KRH: I definitely think part of it is conversation and talking through what is most important, like when you start to see data align that everything may not be possible. This is quite a bit of stress on a budget to have the four years of college for two children at the same time. Then the vacation home to be on the backside of that. The college timing is unlikely to change, but like the vacation home, if it’s done at a different time interval, does that make a difference? But looking at the numbers, the stressor is pretty significant. It pulls quite a bit from the retirement accounts.

Then it’s looking at savings capacity. If you’re having the conversation that these items are all very important, you’d like to do as many as possible, then it’s looking to see, is there room each year now where you could be saving more if this is really what’s most important? We tend to save, but we also tend to spend anything that is not earmarked. We talk a lot about smart goals like, if college is a goal, if the Florida home is a goal. Really looking at how much you need to be putting into each account and do you have that like, some of the cash flows when we had looked off screen, look like there’s years where there could be some additional resources. Like, can we start there and say, “If you really get a little bit more intentional with saving, like those unsaved cash flows and the second to last, can you take some from there and help better meet the goals?” But we do tend to spend what we make. We tend to spend the extra almost before we’re going into goals a lot of times.

[0:19:59] TB: Yeah. I think to your point, Kelly, if you look at their cash position, again, they have some debt, but there’s probably per their plan, they’re running a surplus of unsaved cash flows that if you say, “Hey, double your education or double the amount of money.” Right now, they’re putting 200 bucks into a taxable account, which we’re earmarking for a vacation home, 200 bucks to Addison’s 529 per month, 200 bucks to Sean’s 529. If you double that, maybe these numbers are closer to zero, maybe there is more of a shortage, but those are the things I think that, it goes back to one of the things we talk about all the time on the podcast is just like investing or saving with intention.

I think it’s easier to do that than to put it in a dark hole, which is like a savings account. Now it’s good to have that when you do have a tax bill and things like that, but those would be the things that I would be pressing on. It’s like, can we do more from the aspect of dollars going into those three accounts? Even Joe’s 401k. He’s putting in 10% and he gets a decent match. Jane’s maxing that out. Can we get to 11, 12? What’s the road to get them to max out so we’re not seeing so much of a surplus of cash or basically on spend cash, but we’re directing them more intentionally towards the goals, if that makes sense?

Can we pivot and talk about the surprise tax bill? Like, this does happen, right? How does this happen? What are the ways to get in front of this? Cause this is never fun to go and file your taxes and say, “Hey, congratulations.” It’s better if you have $30,000 back, although we know that having that $30,000 in hand throughout the course of the year is important. When you’re on the other side of that, not many people are just putting money aside to pay the tax man. Why does this happen? Angel, how can we get in front of this? What are your thoughts with regard to the tax bill?

[0:21:57] AM: One way it happens is that you don’t pay enough taxes during the year. Typically, what we do here is we do tax projections with tax professionals’ mid-year to see, are you on pace to paying your fair share of taxes? If you’re not, of course, we have to adjust that through your employer. Of course, that’s how to get in front of it, just to see, are you on pace to pay your fair share from this year’s taxes?

[0:22:24] TB: Yeah. Probably what happened, because Joe’s employment is new, he left his old employer, is that the withholding was never set up correctly. Kelly, we know the tax bills, there are things that you can do to reduce that, but at the end of the day, you can’t circumvent that, right? Part of the problem that maybe why they’ve amassed more cash recently if we make that assumption is because we weren’t withholding enough to pay the IRS as we were earning those paychecks.

[0:22:56] KRH: It’s an excellent first red flag like, “Oh, there’s more in my paycheck than I expected.” That’s probably the first place I would go is withholding. I do think working with the tax professional can be very helpful. I think the purpose of a projection is to minimize that huge surprise like, there’s going to be things that change. Over the course of a year, an average client household might change a job, which we have here, additional family member, the kids going to college, contributing to the 529 accounts can have an impact on the state tax.

Doing a Roth conversion, at first, I was like, oh, maybe that bill was somebody decided to move a pretax into a taxable account and didn’t have professional advice on what might happen. Lots of things happen over the course of the year. A projection is not going to get to the penny, but it could help eliminate a big unpleasant surprise that would give a couple of months to change the withholding to look at the retirement contributions and get prepared.

[0:24:09] TB: Yeah. Shout out to Sean Richards at YFP Tax. These are some of the things that he’s going to be doing with clients, a projection to get in front of some of those surprises. The tool that we have here gives a rough number based on last year of like, “Hey, at the end of this, Joe and Jane, we think that you’re going to have to pay about $42,000 in taxes. If we’re halfway through the year and you’ve paid around 20, 21,000, we’re good.” Again, very much broad strokes, but definitely would want to work with a tax professional to make sure that those types of surprises are mitigated because even things can happen at the very end of the year. It could be that Jane got a bonus that was higher than she thought and we have to make sure that the right amount is withheld.

The other thing that we see for some of these tax surprises is like, if you do have side hustles, you’re making 1099 income and you’re not paying tax on top of that, it might make sense to withhold more from your W2 paycheck just to soften the blow a little bit. That would be one thing that hopefully we’re not going to replicate in the future and get in front of. The last area guys I want to just focus on is the insurance piece.

We’re not going to get into disability, because I don’t think we have a whole lot of detail on that. But when you look at the life insurance right now, they’re really just showing a life insurance policy through Joe’s employer that’s about 50,000. Jane has 162,000 through her group policy. Obviously, I think with college on the docket, a mortgage, young kids, this is probably insufficient where we probably need to look at policies. Angel, how would you purchase with the client?

[0:25:49] AM: There are a couple of ways, but I mean, I like to use rules of thumb to begin with. I mean, typically I like to look at our clients’ income, make sure they have either 10 times or 15 times insured, but there’s a formula that we use where it’s very need-based. We look at final expenses, the nationwide average. We look at liabilities that are happening, things like mortgages, things like student loans or other liabilities included in that. Definitely, because you have children, we like to throw in maybe about $100,000 up front if something does happen, if somebody predeceases the other, to make sure that your kids go to college and get educated. Then after that, we just throw in a couple of years of income to make sure that there’s a readjustment period and that any savings that you would have made while you were alive go into an account or your spouse can not take a dip in lifestyle.

[0:26:46] TB: Yeah. I think you can definitely use the rules of thumb. I would probably sleep more comfortably at night if they had probably a million dollars each at a minimum between the two of them on top of their group policies. I think you can very much break it down by liabilities, adjustment period, all that stuff. I think some work to be done definitely with that. How about Kelly, if we look at the other part of wealth protection, believe it or not, they’re pretty decent. I think when the twins were born, they went through a lot of the state documents. Anything that you would call out here, maybe outside of just updating documents and just making sure that they’re good, that you would want them to work on from a state plan perspective?

[0:27:26] KRH: I’m excited that they have any documents in place, so that was a huge check mark. I don’t know if it’s just our discomfort with this conversation, it slightly surpasses the life insurance in terms of discomfort, but these documents are very important, especially with two young children, but even with a two-person household like, it just makes things so much easier. I’m amazed at the number of stories, I don’t know if it should relate to us, even though it’s famous people that are in the news, just how difficult it is to get through. I feel like there was just a recent article about another famous person in the news who passed away suddenly unexpectedly and his wife has been navigating for months, even though the state laws are friendly for the spouse.

Always making sure that they’re up to date. Certainly, the guardian is big with having younger children. In this case, they don’t have a trust. That is a conversation with an attorney to see if – oh, actually living trust would be good to add to that. Sorry, I did not see those were not checked off. Yeah, that would probably be the one thing on the list just to make sure if anything is needed there. We are not attorneys at YFP, so we would default to legal expertise, but we can help provide guidance on looking into resources, documents needed, how to have those conversations with each other and with a professional.

[0:29:07] TB: Yeah. I think this is a phased process, right, Kelly? It’s education of, “Here. These are the things you probably need.” Then bugging clients to get them in place. Then probably the last phase is, I think next level is make sure that you have a legacy folder. It’s all in one spot. The people that know that the people, the guardian, the executor know where to find this stuff. But to your point, it’s a tough one for us to really execute, because unless you have some experience with this, because again, not many of us want to think about our premature death or disability. Definitely the will, the power of attorneys for property, for health, the living will, even a basic beneficiary check, just to make sure that all of the things are where they should be. This tool actually has, I think a pretty good list of the different accounts out there and who’s the beneficiary and who’s the contingent beneficiary.

Going through that every couple of years, I think is a good, good practice. Probably, just some little bit of touch up to do much more work on the life insurance side from a wealth protection perspective, but pretty okay from the estate plan. We just need to brush it up and make sure it’s current and well-rounded. We’ll leave it there. Kelly, Angel, thank you so much for joining me for this sixth installment of the case study. Hopefully we changed up a little bit. Hopefully this will be meaningful for our listeners out there and really looking forward to doing the next one with you.

[0:30:37] AM: Thanks for having us.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:30:40] As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offered to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists, unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 306: Investing in Yourself

Posted on May 4, 2023May 3, 2023 by Tim U

Erin Albert, PharmD, JD, MBA joins the YFP podcast to discuss why you should approach your career development like you do your financial investments.

About Today’s Guest

Erin L. Albert, PharmD, JD, MBA is Vice President of Pharmacy Relations and Chief Privacy Officer at Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drug Company, PBC. She is both a pharmacist and an attorney. Prior to joining Mark Cuban, she worked in a variety of pharmacy roles, including pharmacy benefits, taught pharmacy students at Butler University College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences for over a decade, served as a director of content for two different ACPE accredited Continuing Pharmacy Education programs, consulted in both fee for service and managed care Medicaid, worked in the pharmaceutical industry in a variety of roles—(including pharmacovigilance, clinical trials, medical affairs, and medical marketing), and in community practice pharmacy as a staff pharmacist and pharmacist-in-charge. She is also a freelance writer and author of over a dozen books, and podcaster (at The Edutainer Podcast.)

Episode Summary

Investing your money is one thing, but people often overlook the fact that they should also be investing in themselves. An article in the Wall Street Journal in late 2022 suggested that “The Best Investment to Make in 2023 Is in Yourself” and that people should treat their own career development like they do their investment portfolios. To discuss, we are joined by Erin Albert, PharmD, JD, MBA. Erin is the vice president of pharmacy relations and the chief privacy officer at Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drug Company. In addition to being a pharmacist, she’s an attorney, author, and podcaster. She explains the concept of investing in oneself by building a portfolio of how we spend our time and money and how she applies this to her own life. She talks about the five categories that make up her professional development portfolio, how often she revisits this framework, and what it looks like to pay herself dividends along the way. She also talks about what she looks for in education and training programs and how her personal brand and network have accelerated the achievement of her goals.

Key Points From the Episode

An introduction to today’s guest Erin Albert, PharmD, JD, MBA and a brief summary of her career journey.
How she came to work at the Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drug Company.
The concept of investing in oneself by building a portfolio of how we spend our time and money.
How Erin applies the strategy of developing a long-term vision to her own life.
Why she revisits this framework or portfolio annually.
How she became comfortable with the uncomfortable and was able to jump at the opportunity to work for Cost Plus Drugs.
What a “jar of awesome” is and how Erin celebrates the small wins.
The value of traditional and non-traditional education and training programs in the pharmacy profession.
Why you should create the course you’re looking for if you cannot find it.
How Erin’s personal brand and network have accelerated her personal and professional goals.

Episode Highlights

“My portfolio looks like a five-way intersection. It’s really your strengths, your values, what you love to do, what the world needs, and what someone will actually pay you to do.” — Erin Albert [0:10:11]

“You have to keep investing in your own personal learning and development so that when you do get that blank piece of paper, you can run with it.” — Erin Albert [0:18:07]

“When I’m looking at different educational opportunities for myself, it’s not so much about formal learning anymore. It’s much more important to me to look at the content and who is teaching it than anything else.” — Erin Albert [0:24:57]

“Whatever your niche is, you should be sharing it because part of the journey in becoming a leader or a thought leader is that you’re sharing what you’re learning along the way.” — Erin Albert [0:30:47]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome Erin Albert on to the show to talk about investing in yourself. Erin is the vice president of pharmacy relations and chief privacy officer at Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drugs Company. In addition to being a pharmacist, she’s an attorney, author, and podcaster. Prior to joining Mark Cuban, she worked in a variety of roles, including pharmacy benefits, taught pharmacy students at Butler University College of Pharmacy for over a decade, served as a director of content for two different ACPE-accredited CPE programs, consulted in both fee-for-service and managed care Medicaid, worked in the pharmaceutical industry in a variety of roles, and in community practice as a staff pharmacist and pharmacist in charge.

Before we jump into my interview with Erin, I recognize that many of you may not be aware of the work that the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 280 households in 40-plus days. YFP planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:33] TU: Erin, welcome to the show.

[0:01:34] EA: Thanks, Tim. It’s great to be here.

[0:01:35] TU: Well, it’s been a long time in the making. I feel like I’ve been following you on social media, LinkedIn in particular for some time. I feel like, I know you at this point in time, which is weird. I guess social media can have that effect, right?

[0:01:46] EA: Yeah. I think it’s a good effect, though, right? Like, I love podcasting and listening to you as well. A lot of our fellow pharmacist podcasters are doing their thing now, which I think is great. I think we need to have more voices on pharmacy and in pharmacy and in healthcare, because let’s be honest, there’s a lot of work to be done.

[0:02:06] TU: That’s right. Well, speaking of work to be done, today we’re going to be talking about investing in yourself. A different take than the normal Xs and Os of the financial plan. Erin, before we dig into that topic, give us a brief summary of your career journey, including the current role that you have as the vice president of pharmacy relations, chief pharmacy officer at Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drugs.

[0:02:29] EA: Yeah. Thanks again, Tim, for having me on the show. My career started right here in Indiana, where I’ve gone full circle and ended back up at. I went to Butler University College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences. I won’t say when because now I’m too old to own up to that. I really always loved chemistry and science and was one of those nerdy little kids that geeked out going to the library. I played some musical instruments in high school, I always had my paws on a lot of different things in a good way.

When I chose pharmacy, I knew that I was staying in-state. It was between that other pharmacy school, Purdue and Butler. Now we have Manchester here in Indiana. I chose Butler. I loved pharmacy but ran screaming from the building after five years. I had had enough education thinking, “Oh, I’m going to go launch my career and I’m never going to go back to school again.” Well, that was not what happened in a good way, in a good way, right?

My life took me out to the Philadelphia area back in the late 90s when pharmaceutical manufacturers were having their heyday out there. Had a lot of great experiences on the pharma manufacturer side, working in a lot of roles, but came home here to Indiana, continued to do that in industry. Then somehow, I wound up in academia, taught at Butler University again, right back where I started in the school, the College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences. I did that for 10 years. I had the hair-brained idea to go to law school at night, also went to business school at night.

All my graduate programs were always when I was a working professional, doing it part-time, either in the evenings or on the side. Lo and behold, I was working for a broker advisor here in Indiana called Apex Benefits, and shout out to them. I love them. They’re still all my peeps. At the time, one of the drug manufacturers was pulling their copay coupon at the beginning of a new plan year. I reached out to, lo and behold, Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drugs, because they had an incredible price on Imatnib. Imatinib as you know is chemo. It is not low cost.

I was trying to figure out a way to get our patients access to that drug at that low cost. Suddenly, they reached out, the CEO and I had a chat, and all of a sudden, I had a job offer. I do believe that somehow Kismet played a role in all this because each and every day I get the opportunity and the honor to use my pharmacist brain, my lawyer brain, and my MBA marketing brain in a variety of different things that I’m doing here at Mark Cuban Cost Plus. I’ve been here almost a year now, although it feels time is a relative thing post-pandemic.

Now I serve as our vice president of pharmacy relations and chief privacy officer here at Mark Cuban. My colleagues are fantastic and phenomenal to work with. I work now for the smartest individual, Alex Oshmyansky that I think I’ve ever had the honor to work for. He’s an MD Ph.D. Oxford guy. He’s got a Ph.D. in math, super brilliant. Then of course we can’t leave out Mr. Cuban. He’s been great to work with, as well. He is very entrenched in the business, by the way, in a very good way, because pharmacy benefits are not easy to understand, but he’s a lifelong learner too. I’ll just put it out there that he’s very inspirational because he’s always asking questions and he always wants to know what the ramifications of everything are in our daily operations.

[0:06:38] TU: I got that vibe. I’m an avid Shark Tank watcher, right? As I suspect many people may be familiar with Mark Cuban through that or through his ownership of a variety of companies, including professional sports teams. I’ve gotten that vibe in watching Shark Tank of that he is constantly asking questions. He’s always wanting to learn, always wanting to grow. I think that’s a sign of not only a good business owner, but that’s a sign of someone who’s looking to stretch themselves, understand more. Of course, as we can have more information, we can make better decisions along the way. It’s really neat, Erin, to see you as a pharmacist representing our profession inside of an organization like Mark Cuban Cost Plus is obviously is having, I think, a positive disruption on our healthcare system. Exciting to see that evolution.

We’ll talk about some of the behaviors around professional development the educational path you’ve taken, the networking that you’ve obviously done, which has led to an opportunity like this. We talk often on the show about where to put your investments, but we haven’t yet discussed this concept of investing in yourself. To guide this conversation, Erin, you shared an article from the Wall Street Journal back at the end of 2022 that we’ll link to in the show notes, that article is called “The Best Investment to Make is in Yourself in 2023”.

To set the stage for our conversation, let me read an excerpt from the article and then I’m going to get your input. That expert excerpt is this, “Just as we buy stocks and bonds to generate financial growth, we can build a portfolio of how we spend our time and money now that pays off in the months and years ahead.” Erin, I like to think that I’ve been pretty intentional about professional development, but I honestly can’t say I’ve been as intentional and as structured about it as I have been in building my own long-term investing plan. This feels to me like a big mindset shift and a reframe. Would you agree?

[0:08:36] EA: I do. I really love that article. We like to focus on our investment portfolios. Now I think more than any other time, maybe. Inflation has gone up or looking to think about retirement in some instances, there’s been huge dips in the stock market, but that whole approach to looking at your bank and your money and dollars in the bank versus treating your own career development like that, having a portfolio, having different educational opportunities, networking with other individuals, and treating it much like you would your own investment portfolio, I think is a really great parallel to what we all should be doing as professionals inside particularly healthcare and pharmacy.

[0:09:25] TU: Yeah. I think as I read that article, Erin, this concept of setting a long-term vision seems to be a really important piece to then be able to inform the steps that we’re going to take today, right, and in the short-term to get that long-term vision. They talk about in the article some big questions that we want to be thinking about that inform that long-term vision and lead to those shorter-term action items. Questions like, what is my purpose? What is my passion? What am I doing this for? As I’ve mentioned already, I see you as someone who’s very intentional about goal-setting and taking action. Share with us about how you apply this strategy of developing a long-term vision with short-term actionable steps. How do you implement this in your own life and your own professional development?

[0:10:11] EA: Sure. My portfolio looks like, almost a five-way intersection. It’s really your strengths, your values, what you love to do, what the world needs, and what someone will actually pay you to do. Okay. That’s the framework for my own portfolio. I call it an ikigai or the French call it a raison d’etre. It’s your reason for being, right? That to me is the long-term legacy game that we’re all trying to play, I think.

We all are incumbent upon ourselves to find out what that meaning is for each of us individually. When I coach students or other professionals, one of the first questions I ask them is, what are your values? What do you personally value and hold above all other values? I think that has to be the starting point for unearthing whatever your ikigai or your raison d’etre is. Understanding what is personally important and valuable to you.

One of my values, my personal values, is working on the frontiers of knowledge, new knowledge. I am a huge junkie of the future of whatever, XYZ, constantly looking ahead, looking at the best hits, and figuring out how to pull those best ideas into today to make the future happen today. Values are super important. I think the other piece that, frankly, a lot of pharmacy schools, I think, have done a better job in the last few years is assessing your personal strengths, knowing what those are. There are some great tools out there like strengths finder, for example, where you can figure out what your strengths are.

What you love to do like my favorite question there is thinking about what was the last day that time went by and you didn’t even notice? Like what were you doing that day? Because those are hints and clues for you to figure out what your purpose in life is. Also, things like, what the world needs. Right now we’re constantly trying to fill gaps. What are those gaps? What does the world still need? Let’s be honest, particularly in healthcare, there’s a lot of opportunity there.

Then what somebody will actually pay you to do? I think, is important too. Because otherwise, it’s a hobby. It’s something that maybe you’re personally interested in, curious about. I just read a recent book called Unicorn Space that talks about this element as well. These might not be in your day job, but by having this curiosity about different things, that actually can be another mechanism by which you invest in your lifelong learning portfolio and drag better ideas for your curiosities into your day job as well. That’s the framework that I utilize when I look at my own purpose or calling.

[0:13:13] TU: I love that, Erin. I love the visual of the intersection of those things, right? I think so often when I talk with folks, you may see people, “Hey, I’m making a great income, but I’m feeling that dissatisfaction, because of these other things are missing.” Right? That you mentioned as you think about values and some of the impacts forth or we don’t want it to be a hobby. I might be doing those other things, but it’s not paying the bills or it’s not valued in the way that it’s being compensated, so there’s that rub there.

The intersection of these things coming together is beautiful. One of the things I used to share often with students when I was doing some career development is what you alluded to is, “Hey, what are you doing when you’re spending time and you don’t realize time is passing? What are those things or that you could spend a day, a week, whatever, working on a project and you feel more energized through that work”, right? Then on the other side of the coin, what are those things that you do in a day? obviously, all jobs, all work are going to come with some element, some percentage of these things, but that time can be even limited, but it drains you, right? It pulls the energy away from you.

Being aware and observing those things, aligning those with your strengths, understanding what the market value isn’t going to pay for. I think the intersection of those is a really powerful visual. My follow-up to you with that is how often do you revisit that framework? What is the process for you to look at that portfolio? Is it something you do in an annual goal setting to track your progress to rebalance, if you will, right? If we’re off track. How do you evaluate your progress towards achieving that intersection?

[0:14:50] EA: Yeah. I think that’s twofold for me. The first point is annually. I know it’s cheesy to set goals or basé to do that this year or any year for that matter, especially post-pandemic, right? Because we never know what tomorrow is going to bring. But still, I need that order and structure in my life, so usually, the month of December preceding the new year, I really sit down, put pen to paper, and start thinking about what do I really want to bring to my portfolio, my learning portfolio, my life portfolio in the coming year?

The other point in time when I do it is when I change jobs and things derail in a good way, right? Because you weren’t expecting necessarily that great opportunity to come your way, but if you’re offered a seat on a rocket ship, you get on and then you start asking questions later. You don’t ponder things and let the great opportunity pass you by. I mean, with Cost Plus Drugs, I didn’t even have a job description when I rolled in. I basically got keys to the building and they told me to write my job description and it’s changed a couple of times since I’ve been here.

I think any time you have your life’s work or whatever is really, truly important to you at the time and there’s been radical change, I think that’s always a good time to do a little bit of janitorial, if you will, on your portfolio to make sure that you’re still headed in the right direction for you based upon your new situation.

[0:16:22] TU: Erin, the example you just gave of coming to Cost Plus, not having a job description, getting the keys, you figure it out as you go. I think for many folks listening, they may not be comfortable with that type of an opportunity, that type of an unknown. Your mindset around that is really interesting to me. Where do you attribute? How have you become comfortable with the uncomfortable that you say yes to an opportunity like that, knowing that there’s certainly going to be some bumps along the way?

[0:16:49] EA: That’s a really good question. I think where your roots came from like, I grew up, I think we were talking off camera a little bit about or before we recorded about the fact that we grew up in entrepreneurial households. I mean, I grew up in an entrepreneurial household. I watch Shark Tank. I’m a junkie when it comes to Shark Tank like I taught a Shark Tank, literally at Butler University. We had an entrepreneurship in healthcare and life sciences course and their final exam in that course was to do a Shark Tank.

I am a controlled or conservative risk taker. For me, I think it’s empowering to be able to have a blank piece of paper or a blank slate to create and craft a job description or even your portfolio in life, what you really want to accomplish, what you’re here to do, because we’re all here for a reason. I know that sounds really woo-woo, but it’s true. For me, I love to just get keys to the building and I’ll figure it out one way or the other, but I get that sometimes people can be a little more reserved or conservative and they want the checklist, right? I think post-pandemic, if nothing else, it’s taught us that sometimes there isn’t a roadmap. There isn’t a checklist. You have to keep investing in your own personal learning and development so when you do get that blank piece of paper, you can run with it.

[0:18:17] TU: Yeah. I would encourage any listeners out there that are managers, supervisors, ask yourself, what could I be doing to create that culture that allows people to figure it out and to get in the messy middle? That’s one of our core values, Erin, at YFP, is that we really want to have the team comfortable with taking some calculated risks, right? Obviously, there’s discernment there. Sometimes that means we get it right. Sometimes that means, we don’t and permission to fail and to fail quickly and to get back up on our feet and move forward.

I think anything we can do from a management leadership perspective to foster that culture and to role model that is going to allow us to hopefully make the strides that we need to make in pharmacy, but also in healthcare at large. I love that. I love the concept of getting comfortable with the uncomfortable. I want to shift gears. One of the things Erin, this article talks about is how valuable it can be to pay ourselves dividends along the way, as a way to really start to reap some of the rewards and to keep the motivation going.

Admittedly, I am terrible at this. I’m someone who will set big audacious goals and I’m all in grinding it out, waiting to celebrate until the finish line is achieved. The problem with this approach is that we know that the feelings associated with achievement, right, with getting to that “finish line” are short-lived. We can be spending a significant amount of time grinding and grinding some more only to have that feeling of accomplishment be fleeting right in that moment. One, I’d love to hear your thoughts on that and what strategies you implement for these type of micro rewards along the way, these dividends.

[0:20:02] EA: I call that the hedonic treadmill, right, like especially pharmacists. There’s something about us that we love to set big, hairy, audacious goals. Then when we get there, it’s like, what’s next? For me, especially later in my career, I started focusing on the tiny wins, because really, that’s what it’s all about at the end of the day. You get to that big picture, final countdown, whether it’s you’re graduating from pharmacy school or you’re getting that new cool job. It’s not about the big wins. It’s about the tiny wins.

I’ll try to look visually around my day, mentally around my day, every day to sit down and think about, okay, what was the tiny win of the day? What was the best part of my day? Then even keeping what I call a “jar of awesome” around. I have a little 365-day calendar, each day I pull the tag off, and then whatever that was, that particular day, I’ll write it on that calendar posting and I’ll jam it in my “jar of awesome”. Then at the end of the year, I go back and look at it and say, “Wow.” Especially on those bad days, right? When you’re really struggling to find that tiny win, you have something to go back to and say, “Okay, it’s not really that bad after all.”

We’ve had a tremendous amount of tiny wins along the way, XYZ year, so it’s really about the little things. It’s not about the big picture stuff. I know we all need to have those large goals, those lofty goals to get to, but don’t forget the tiny wins along the way as well, because I think they’re equally, if not more important.

[0:21:49] TU: Yeah. I really like that. What I’m hearing there is some type of process or system or activity behavior, whatever we want to call it, that really captures those wins, captures the things that we’re grateful for in the moment because it’s easy to lose sight of those. One I started doing recently and shout out to my partner, Tim Baker, who gave me this idea is, I’ll do a morning gratitude exercise five minutes, micro things of the day that I’m grateful for from the day before. I’ve started organizing those by day. I can see it by year. For example, on March 15th, I can see it 2023, 2022, and the goal would be over time you can look back several years. That has been really powerful.

Even things just one year ago, where it’s like, “Ah, I totally lost sight of that.” Like in that day, that was such an important win. I find it to be very grounding for exactly what you’re saying enjoying those small wins and join the day in the moments and being present in that. Resisting against that urge to be focusing on these massive goals that may or may not come in the future. That to be a fleeting reward when it does come. love what you had to share there.

I want to pick your brain on disruption and education. You and I both were former academics. I feel like we’re academics at heart always, but considering the disruption we’re seeing in education with expanded accessibility at a lower cost, some really referring to things like the massive online open courses. It feels like we’re stuck between a traditional model that values the more structured training programs defined by degrees and credentials, right, think PharmD, residency board certification.

All the while, those structured programs may not be as customizable, affordable, or relatable as other learning opportunities that are coming out there. As someone, Erin, who holds four degrees, if I follow the journey correctly, Bachelors, PharmD, MBA, JD, but also values ongoing professional development and learning, right? Books, podcasts, courses, etc. what do you see as the future of the value of traditional and non-traditional education and training programs in our profession?

[0:24:01] EA: Yeah. I think the MOOCs to your point earlier are a wonderful opportunity to dip your toe into the pool before you go to the deep end with another degree. Okay. I see it as a pool, right? You’ve got all these different lanes in the pool that you can dip into. You can start with a certificate, you could start with an online course, you could talk to your mentor and get their wise advice or sage advice. You should, by the way, have multiple mentors, not just one.

You could formalize that education and go get a graduate degree if you wanted to, or even shift and get a different bachelor’s degree. You could even go get your Ph.D. if you wanted to. I think the range of opportunity has never been better historically than it is right now. I think we have to seize that opportunity. When I’m looking at different educational opportunities for myself, I got to tell you, it’s not so much about formal learning anymore. It’s much more important to me to look at the content and who is teaching it than anything else. I will pay gobs of money myself. I will invest in myself. No questions asked, if it’s content that I cannot get from other sources and the person or the thought leader that’s teaching that content is truly a leader in their arena.

Whether that’s pharmacy benefits, that’s a certain therapeutic area like oncology or whatever the case may be, business ownership as an independent pharmacist. We now have more choices than ever. Sometimes that’s a little bit overwhelming, right? That’s why, again, you want to tap back into your mentor network, and your mentors can be peers, too, by the way, which I think is really important and talk to your network and find out, “Hey, well, that’s really the best program out there in XYZ and go from there?” I think it’s actually a beautiful thing, a great thing that we have a range of different types of ways that we can learn, both live and online or on demand.

[0:26:14] TU: Yeah. I think that’s a great point, right? The access information is greater than it’s ever been, which can be a blessing and a curse. I see it as a blessing, but it can be so overwhelming, whether it’s things we just pick up and read, whether it’s taking online courses, whether it’s more formal certifications or academic degree programs. There are so many different pathways that are out there. I think having a system, having a filter, whether that’s mentors, whether that’s going back to the things you mentioned earlier in the intersection of those five different areas and trying to figure out where do these align and fit in, do they align or do they fit in? But really asking yourself those questions before you make that investment of time and money, right?

I think that’s the thing I was encouraging people is you’re thinking about, especially a traditional degree, right? MBA, MS, whatever, post-PharmD like, what’s the return on investment of both your time and money? I think with so many options that are now out there having some type of criteria, some type of framework, some type of funnel to be able to really filter those opportunities.

[0:27:17] EA: Exactly. I use that mindset when I published and wrote all my books, Toni Morrison, who’s another famous author, said, “If I’m trying to find a book that I want to read and it’s not available, that’s the hint from the universe that I need to write it.” An example sometimes means you have to create the course. In that case, I’ll give you a recent example as immediate past president of the American Society for Pharmacy Law, one of the things that I noticed was as a mid-career professional, there is nothing out there for people like me who are passionate about the intersection of pharmacy and law and leveling up on their own leadership.

We decided to create the diplomat for the American Society for Pharmacy Law program. It is a one-year longitudinal mentor-mentee program that lets you go down a rabbit hole and study an area of pharmacy and law that you are personally passionate about. You present it at the subsequent annual meeting. You get paired with a mentor. You have a leadership seminar series. All those components have swirled together to bring the very best professionals in the realms of pharmacy and law together, to bring along the next generation of leaders in that arena that are mid-career right now.

That didn’t exist before, but darn it, I wanted it like, I wanted to be part of that. We decided to build it. Now we’re getting ready to launch our second class at our next annual meeting coming this fall. We’ve already got a lot of interest in it. Sometimes I have to say as much as I hate to say it because this extra work, if you’re looking around for something and you cannot find it, maybe that’s the sign that you need to create it. Then, in turn, that’s going to wrap right into your own learning portfolio.

[0:29:08] TU: It’s a great example, great example. Since we’re talking about professional development, I want to tap in your expertise as someone that I view as a role model in personal branding and networking. I think my observation, Erin, is that you have intentionally yet authentically built a personal brand that has obviously led to networking and other opportunities. My question for you is, how has your ability to develop the personal brand that you’ve built to develop the network that you’ve built? How has that accelerated your personal and professional goals?

[0:29:43] EA: I mean, that’s everything. I think one of the first touch points that I made with Mark Cuban Cost Plus, I didn’t talk about this earlier, but Mr. Cuban himself was being interviewed by one of the news editors at LinkedIn on a live stream, now that LinkedIn has live stream video. They took one of my posts that I compared and contrasted drug prices that are out in the internet, Cost Plus, and some other sites and integrated it into the live stream. I had no idea that they were going to do that. I was shocked.

I still don’t know how they figured that out, but I think that was definitely part of the conversation that led me to joining Mark Cuban Cost Plus, as well. I guess, the best advice there is number one, you can’t fake it. If you’re passionate about something, you should be sharing it with the rest of the world, if you can. My world is nerdy. I do pharmacy benefits, pharmacy law and career development.

Those are my three niches, but whatever your niche is, you should be sharing it, because part of the journey in becoming a leader or a thought leader in that arena is that you’re sharing what you’re learning along the way. There’s always that opportunity, I think. It’s super important to share that. I mean, that’s part of being a good learner. In academia, as you know, we always say, see one, do one, teach one, right?

[0:31:11] TU: Yup. Absolutely. What a tangible example of personal branding leading to an opportunity. That’s a really neat one. Erin, this has been awesome. I love this topic, investing in yourself. Your passion comes through the microphone, certainly. I’m excited to get this out to our community to be thinking about how does investing in yourself accelerate your personal goals? I do think there’s a return on investment financially, as well. There’s a connection there to the financial plan. As we wrap up, though, where’s the best place for our listeners to go to connect with you and to learn more about the work that you’re doing?

[0:31:46] EA: Sure. LinkedIn is a great place. Right now, at Cost Plus Drugs, we’re very focused on what we’re calling The Team Cuban Benefits Card and the Cuban Pharmacy Affiliate Network. I’m excited to partner with independent pharmacies across the US, right now to work with them into Brick-and-Mortar pharmacies and get our amazing pricing into their pharmacies, yet offered them a solution where they’re getting paid and reimbursed for their awesome services and our patients can get their prescription drugs closer to home. If you’re an independent pharmacist, I personally love to talk to you. Please connect to me on LinkedIn.

Every Saturday morning that I am home, I also do a quick 20-minute live stream on LinkedIn. That’s audio only. You do not want to see this camera face. This face is not ready for camera at 9 am, Eastern time on Saturday mornings, but I do, do a quick update there on pharmacy benefits, pharmacy law and career development for the week incoming. Then I do publish a newsletter around that after we have our little morning coffee clutch and chat. If you want to check me out over there, I do that live stream again every Saturday morning at 9 am, Eastern.

[0:33:04] TU: Awesome. Great stuff. Hopefully, you all connect and follow Erin on LinkedIn. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Erin, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time. I appreciate it.

[0:33:12] EA: Yeah. Best of success to you, Tim. I know it’s hard to leave Academia where it’s seemingly “stable” to go do your own thing, but you’re brave doing it, and kudos to you for that.

[0:33:23] TU: Thank you, so much. Appreciate that.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:33:25] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show has provided you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 304: How This Pharmacy Entrepreneur Helps Pharmacists Transition Into Their Careers in Canada

Posted on April 20, 2023April 19, 2023 by Caitlin Boyle

Havalee Johnson, pharmacist and Founder of Immigrant PharmAssist, shares how and why she made the move from Jamaica to Canada, how her business helps immigrant pharmacists transition into their careers in Canada, and her business goals.

About Today’s Guest

Havalee is a Jamaican immigrant in Canada. She holds dual pharmacist registrations in both countries and has a combined 8 years of practice experience. Feeling the need for growth and expansion in her life and career, Havalee successfully pursued her pharmacist licensure in Canada, completely self-sponsored, and moved from Jamaica to Canada at the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic in early 2020. She seamlessly transitioned and integrated into the Alberta healthcare system where she practices as a clinical pharmacist. Havalee is people-centric and multi-passionate and loves to help, empower and inspire others. Noting the myriad of challenges encountered by pharmacists’ peers and colleagues who have been unsuccessful in their many attempts to transfer their licenses to Canada, Havalee is on a mission to support and assist as many immigrants as possible. Through her business Immigrant PharmAssist, she helps international pharmacist graduates (IPGs) successfully navigate and accelerate through the licensure process so that they can smoothly transition into their lives and careers while thriving as newcomers in Canada.

Episode Summary

Havalee Johnson is a pharmacist in Alberta, Canada, and her new company, Immigrant PharmAssist, focuses on helping fellow pharmacists transition to a pharmacy career in Canada. After explaining why she stepped into a career in pharmacy, Havalee gives details on her community pharmacy experience, why commitment is one of her most important values, and the financial strategy she implemented to make the move from Jamaica to Canada. Havalee then opens up about what she wishes to accomplish with PharmAssist, whether pharmacies in Canada and America are going through the same struggles, common misconceptions that she encounters about moving to Canada, and where her business needs to be in the next three years for her to consider it a success.

Key Points From the Episode

A warm welcome to today’s guest, pharmacist and entrepreneur, Havalee Johnson.
Havalee’s background in pharmacy, including where she trained and her first job after school.
The community pharmacy experience that made her enroll in pharmacy school.
Why the John Assaraf quote about commitment resonates with Havalee and her life’s journey.
Havalee’s reasons for immigrating to Canada.
Her financial strategy for moving to Canada, and her unique relationship with money.
The problems that she is trying to solve with her business PharmAssist.
Why Canada is an attractive destination for pharmacists to consider.
Whether pharmacies in America and Canada are experiencing the same challenges.
Common misconceptions that aspiring pharmacists have about moving to Canada.
Where Havalee wants her business to be in three years to consider it a success.
The mindset shift that has had the biggest impact on her life since moving to Canada.
What Havalee does to reenter herself when she feels overwhelmed and out of focus.

Episode Highlights

“I’m a very committed person. And it’s not just in my professional life, it’s in every area of my life. If I have an appointment with someone, I’m going to make that commitment; I will show up for the occasion. If I have to do something, I just get it done.” — Havalee Johnson [08:47]

“When other people are having challenges or they have this sort of mindset that things will not work out, it’s because their level of commitment is not in alignment with what they think they truly want.” — Havalee Johnson [09:18]

“There’s so much wealth and information tied up in knowledge. It is very indispensable.” — Havalee Johnson [18:05]

“I worked, I saved, I bought the things that I needed to buy. I didn’t focus on the things that I wanted. It’s called delayed gratification. A lot of us know about it but we don’t subscribe to it.” — Havalee Johnson [18:40]

“It is not a matter of resources, it’s a matter of being resourceful.” — Havalee Johnson [27:39]

“I’ve embraced the fact that if I want to get to where I want to go, I need to do things differently and I have to invest in me. And not just investment in terms of monetary investment, but invest in my mindset, in up-leveling my mindset.” — Havalee Johnson [34:23]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

EPISODE 304

[INTRODUCTION]

This week, I welcome to the show, Havalee Johnson, a pharmacist-entrepreneur from Jamaica, who helps pharmacists transition into their careers and thrive as newcomers to Canada. During the show, we discuss why she decided to move away from her family and hometown in Jamaica to live and practice some 2,000 plus miles away in Canada, some of the biggest misconceptions that folks have about moving to Canada as a licensed healthcare professional and the steps that she took financially to pay off her student loan debt, her car, accumulate savings, and to ultimately fund the move and transition to Canada.

Now, before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 280 households in 40-plus states. YFP planning offers fee-only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Havalee Johnson.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:29.4] TU: Havalee, welcome to the show.

[0:01:30.6] HJ: Hey Tim, thank you for having me.

[0:01:33.1] TU: Really excited to follow up on the conversation from a couple of weeks ago to share what you shared with me, which is a really cool career journey and I think an inspiring story for many with the work that you’re doing now with pharmacists. We’ll get to that here in a little bit.

Let’s start with your career journey. What led you into the profession of pharmacy, where did you do your pharmacy training, and what was your first job out of school?

[0:01:56.1] HJ: Oh, that’s interesting. So interestingly, my first job, I will start with that one, my first job was in a pharmacy, that I think propelled me into my career being a pharmacist because I never wanted to be a pharmacist growing up. So my back story is that I was born and raised in Jamaica.

I lived in Jamaica for pretty much my entire life until I moved to Canada at the start of 2020, and that’s where I also did my training in Jamaica, at the University of Technology. I did my undergrad studies with my bachelor of pharmacy degree. So it’s interesting that I never thought of pharmacy, it wasn’t on my radar.

But as a student in high school, we were required to do some voluntary work prior to graduating and it so happened that I volunteered at the hospital’s pharmacy. So that was my first introduction to pharmacy but I never thought anything of it then. But after I completed six form, which is the equivalent of community college. In Jamaica, you can go to six form if you’re in high school.

You do your A-level studies and then you move into university. One of my colleagues was like, “My mom was saying pharmacy is a cool profession and all this stuff.” I was like, “Pharmacy? No.” I actually wanted to become a linguist. I was the Spanish student, I was the math student, and I did a mixture of the sciences and the arts. But as I’ve told you before, Tim, when we met, that I’m very multi-passionate and a multi-potential.

So I could just basically segue from pharmacy into just about anything, which to me that right now is really exciting. I started my pharmacy career in Jamaica where I practiced for five years before moving to Canada, where I interestingly transferred my pharmacist license and I practice as a pharmacist in Canada as well.

[0:03:45.1] TU: What I like about what you just shared there, Havalee, is that pharmacy is a part of your story, it is not the only story, right? So it’s an important part of the journey, you’re obviously helping other pharmacists but you know, you mentioned you can pivot in different directions. We’ll talk about the value of diversification here in a little bit and if I heard you correctly, it was a hospital experience that led you into pharmacy school. But you would end up practicing in community for a while, is that correct?

[0:04:11.0] HJ: Yeah. So after high school, so we had financial challenges growing up and my mom was basically a single parent and my sister went to nursing school prior to me going to pharmacy school, and she was like, “I can’t afford to send you both to university at the same time. So you have to work for a year.” And I was like, “No way, I’m not working.” Because for me, school was the only thing that I knew and actually, I found my value and my education.

As I told you from my back story that I never felt worthy, and I was told growing up that I was ugly. So, I just buried myself in academics. So when my mom told me I had to work prior to going to university, I was crushed. And I thought she was actually kidding but she was serious. So she went and got me a job basically. She made recommendations because she loves to talk about her children and she found a pharmacy owner.

She was like, “My daughter, she’s very brilliant, she’s interested in starting in pharmacy.” I did not want to go to work in a pharmacy. I wanted to go to university and I did an application to the pharmacy owner. That’s an interesting part of my story, we’ll have to talk about that another time, but it was my penmanship that was the hook. Like, my penmanship is really great, if I may say so myself.

So the owner saw my penmanship and he’s like, “I need to meet this person” and so I interviewed. My personality and I fit right into the pharmacy setting. I worked there for 15 months as a pharmacy assistant. So that was my first introduction to business as well because I got to do a little bit of cashiering, I did the OTC stuff, I got to do account reconciliation, I got to do just about every little thing in the pharmacy.

So I was like a floater and I worked there, but the impression that was left upon me by the pharmacist, who was the chief pharmacist at the time, her name is Alicia. Alicia, she was very impressionable. She was very proficient. She was very professional and I like the way she dealt with the parents, and that was my inspiration for going to pharmacy school. I wanted to emulate her and I was like, “Wow, this is really nice.” I enjoyed my 15 months there and I apply for pharmacy school.

Interestingly, I applied for pharmacy school prior and they didn’t have any space and they’ve gotten a letter, an email, a letter saying that I didn’t meet the qualification requirements. I reapplied the following year and I got through but all they needed to tell me was that they didn’t have any space. They didn’t have the capacity but I applied, I reapplied because I’m not the person who gives up easily. With the same credentials, I got in and then I had a whale of a time.

I suffice to say, I mentioned earlier that we had financial challenges and then the pharmacy was how I got through university. My mentor, my support system came through the pharmacy and that was how my accommodation was paid for. That was how my books were taken care of, that was when I got my first laptop.

I was 20 years old when I got my first laptop and just looking back now, it’s amazing to see how far I’ve come since then. Yet, that’s how I got through pharmacy school and I mentioned my friend Alicia the pharmacist, every single month that she got her salary, she sent me some pocket change, every single month, and I just feel so blessed.

[0:07:32.9] TU: Let’s make sure Alicia hears this episode, we’ll have to share it with her as you give a shout-out to her. But one thing that really stood out to me when you and I talked a couple of weeks ago is, you know, I have the opportunity to talk with different pharmacists, pharmacy owners, entrepreneurs all across the country every week, which is an incredible part of the job and the work that I have and doing the podcast.

But something really stood out about our interaction. I think it was your mindset, it was your passion, your enthusiasm, your resilience, you described that a little bit, your optimism, it’s contagious. And you shared recently on LinkedIn a quote by John Assaraf. You said, “If you’re interested, you will do what’s convenient. If you’re committed, you’ll do whatever it takes.” Tell us more, why does that quote resonate with you and resonate with your own journey?

[0:08:23.3] HJ: It absolutely does. Thank you for bringing that up. I tend to forget the things that I put out there sometimes because I’m just, you know, going from what’s inside that I wanted to share. But again, I buried myself in my academics and I found that for me, things just seemed so easy. And it’s just when persons are approaching me and asking, “How did you do this, how did you accomplish this?” that I realized that I was a very committed person. And it’s not just in my professional life, it’s in every area of my life.

If I have an appointment with someone, I’m going to make that commitment, I will show up for the occasion. If I have to do something, I just get it done. So there are no entrances and even if there are obstacles along the way, it doesn’t prevent me from going ahead because I’m so committed to whatever task it is that I have in front of me, whatever commitment that I’ve made. So, when other persons are having challenges or they have this sort of mindset that things will not work out, it’s because their level of commitment is not in alignment with what they think they truly want.

So I thought that quote was fitting for the post that I did. I didn’t realize that it had gone over on to your platform as well. So thank you for the reminder, but I’m actually very committed and it makes the process much easier. It makes things — like, you don’t focus on the problems when you’re committed, you find creative solutions, and one problem has more than a thousand solutions if we were to go through and think about it logically.

[0:10:01.2] TU: Yeah, I mean, mindset really matters, right? I think that’s what you’re alluding to there and you could have two people that are facing a very similar problem but how they approach it and how they receive that challenge can be night and day. I had a chance to talk with Lauren Castle recently on the podcast, who is the founder of The Functional Medicine Pharmacist Alliance, and she talked about a book that its purpose is not a side hustle.

Meaning, what you said is, we bring our purpose and our intentionality to every single interaction, every single day. Now, easier said than done, right? And I often wonder, “Hey, what would the day look like as a parent, as a father, as a business owner, what would it look like if I did that every moment?” But such a good reminder.

Let’s talk about your transition to Canada. So you mentioned your upbringing in Jamaica. After pharmacy training, you worked a little over five years in community practice and then ultimately, you make a bold decision to move 2,000 plus miles to Canada, away from your home country, your family, your friends, your professional network. Why, what led you to that decision?

[0:11:07.0] HJ: I just don’t, it just came out of nowhere. I think Canada for me signified not security, because there’s not security anywhere, but Canada had some of the things that I desired as an adult. For example, growing up, our healthcare system is not the best. I’m not here to criticize our healthcare system but I lost my dad through him having health challenges going through dialysis, kidney failure, we couldn’t afford the dialysis.

I recognize that in order for me to serve people, I need to be healthy and I need to have that access. I’m not focusing on being ill but if things were to happen, if things were to hit the ceiling, I want to know that I have the accessibility. Also, when I completed pharmacy school, I got a statement for three million Jamaican dollars for my student loan debt.

I was like, okay, I didn’t come from the typical middle-class or upper-class family that had the financial means to send me to school. I had that. I was like, “Okay, I need, when I start my family, for my children to have access to work less education.” That was one of, again, these things were my deep why’s. Why I decided Canada.

Canada is underpopulated and they love bright young minds. I should just try for Canada and I had that thought when I went into the pharmacy. The first pharmacy I worked in after I got my license, my boss actually, they were selling the pharmacy and they were like, “Are you interested in buying?”

I’m like, “No, I’m on my way out of here.” I just told her, “I’m on my way out of here.” That was 2015. I didn’t know how, I didn’t have any connections. At that time, I had persons telling me I needed to go back to school and here I am, in three million dollars worth of student loan debt, now I’m at the phase in my life where I think I need to acquire things, which no, in retrospect, I didn’t need to acquire things. I need to acquire experiences instead.

So I had Canada in mind and I made it happen. I was committed, I did whatever it took. I had the two jobs. I was trying to be very savvy with my finances because again, we had the challenges of not having things that other children had that you probably, why you would have had but no, I’m like, it’s okay. I didn’t really need them but the mind of a child is totally different from the mind of an adult.

When you’re a child, you’re very impressionable and we have very receptive minds but as an adult, you know that you might need to be receptive as well as fertile and the things that we allow into our spaces has to be totally different from the focus we had when we were much younger.

So, I had Canada in mind and I’m like, “Okay in Jamaica, you get two months maternity leave when you start your family” and I was like, “That’s no time for you to nurture and care for an infant” and I’m like, “Okay, Canada, you could get up to a year as maternity leave” and also the scope of practice.

I was frustrated at times, so I had to do a year’s internship in the hospital after pharmacy school and I was frustrated with the way things were systemically, like the things that patient — I’m very passionate about patient care and I’m an advocate for people because I treat people the way I would want to be treated, the way I want my family members to be treated. And they have to go through too many hoops and hurdles to get even a registration number and a prescription, for example. These are things that I would have done differently but I’m not in administration.

I’m not in a certain position to implement those changes. So when I completed my internship, I said, “I cannot work with this system because it’s not in alignment with me.” And then going into community, I had so much autonomy and my boss’s wife is a pharmacist and my boss. They respected me, they allowed me to practice to my fullest scope but my scope was still very restrictive.

If the doctor wasn’t available, I couldn’t fax, I could make changes to the prescription. I love that about Canada, because the scope of practice here is that much greater. You can adopt a prescription, you can prescribe for a minor ailment, you can order labs, you can see the patient’s actual lab results, and that to me was exciting and that was one of my reasons for wanting to move to Canada as well.

[0:15:29.1] TU: And when you take a bold move like that, whether it’s moving from Jamaica to Canada, whether someone decides they’re going to start a business, which you did that as well. We’ll talk about that here in a little bit. But any bold move I think often requires one to feel like they’re in a sound financial position to make that move with confidence, and I talk about this in the show all the time.

If you’re starting a business, not that we need to have every single T crossed and I dotted with our financial plan, but we want to have some level of a foundation that we can approach that business with confidence, and not be having the stress and anxiety of personally not being where we need to be. So I ask that because, for you, you shared with me before that you paid off three million dollars in Jamaica debt from pharmacy, which was equivalent to about 30,000 in Canadian, is that correct?

[0:16:20.1] HJ: Correct.

[0:16:21.1] TU: Paid off a car, you accumulated savings, there is cost of moving, what was the strategy for you to get yourself in the financial position to be ready to make that bold move?

[0:16:33.6] HJ: Thank you for that question. I think that my relationship with money is very unique. I used to say that I don’t know how my mom makes more than a hundred cents out of a dollar because she did it, and I think I got some of that from her in terms of being very savvy about my finances. The minute I started working, I said I’m going to start saving towards this Canada journey, and that’s what I did.

I earned, I took care of my obligations. So in pharmacy school, we actually learned about the reducing balance method. I’d never done any business subjects, I never done accounting prior, I learned about the reducing balance method. I applied that to my student loan and my debt payoff but I also did it smartly. I also referenced my friend Alicia. She allowed me, whenever I needed to do any business transaction, not business but any personal related transaction if I wanted to travel to buy an airline ticket.

She was the person that got the credit card print posts from. You use, you pay on time and in full so you don’t accumulate an interest, and then I just started learning that, “Okay, if I use it directly after the due date, I get at least 51 days to make that payment.” Because the date for the statement will come and then you’ll have time to pay. So I adopted that from Alicia, that was where it started initially and then I started reading the financial section of the local newspaper.

There’s so much wealth and information tied up in knowledge. It is very indispensable and I did that, and using my credit card to pay down my student loan was a part of my strategy because I had a credit card that had cash back. So I would pay the student loan and I’d get back some of the money and I built up great credit. I honestly never checked my credit back in Jamaica, but I knew that my credit was great because I started out with a credit card of USD 100,000 in 2016 and by 2018, my credit limit increased to over a million dollars.

So I worked, I saved, I bought the things that I needed to buy, I didn’t focus on the things that I wanted. It was called delayed gratification. A lot of us know about it but we don’t subscribe to it . And just being very disciplined in my finances, paying my debts, honoring my financial obligations, doing everything that I needed to do, it allowed me to save and I also set up, I didn’t even know for sure but I invested in a life insurance investment policy.

I just heard about this in financial advisor. I called him up and met with him, he explained some stuff to me, then it was just all his. I didn’t understand what were mutual funds, I didn’t know the jargons, I didn’t know what was going on behind the scenes but I knew I needed to make plans and preparation for my future. So I invested in a policy and I started saving every single month from my salary.

I told myself, “This is my retirement plan” and over a period of time, it accumulated so much funds. I was like, “Whoa, this is amazing.” It is amazing to see the tiny steps that we take, and over time, we adapt quickly and I think that was a very big thing for me. But I think it really boils down to me being the disciplined person that I am with my finances. I have never paid any money for credit card interest while I work in Jamaica. Never.

I paid on time, in full, and over a two-year period, I got back over USD 130,000 in cash back just by using my credit card.

[0:20:19.6] TU: It makes sense when you’re paying big student loan payments, right? And the cashback of that. So I’d like what you share. I think there’s a couple of things that really stand out there, your relationship with money and really, understanding what is that, where does that come from, our upbringing typically, what are the good things that we have a positive relationship with money, what are the not so good things.

Being aware of that and then really, what I heard is a lot of discipline in setting your goals and being intentional with how you were going to achieve those goals, which obviously, allowed you to make some of the transitions and move that you did make.

I want to shift gears and talk about the work that you’re doing through PharmAssist and as you say on LinkedIn, “I help pharmacists transition into their careers and thrive as newcomers in Canada.”

So two questions for you here, what problem are you trying to solve with this business, and what benefits does living in Canada for pharmacists, that it may be an attractive option for people to consider?

[0:21:17.0] HJ: Thanks for that question, Tim. So in my business, actually I just studied shortly a backstory, PharmAssist started off as a podcast but it was a podcast to help patients, because I wanted to use my voice that I wanted –

[0:21:29.9] TU: I saw that, I found it, yes.

[0:21:32.4] HJ: You did? I wanted to utilize my voice in a way that could be meaningful and impactful. I’ve always stayed away from public speaking, anything that required me to be in the spotlight. So, I started PharmAssist but I didn’t, at the time, know how to get in front of the right audience, but it was well working in pharmacy. I’ve noticed certain trends, I saw the frustration, I heard the stories.

I’ve met several international pharmacists who were struggling and when I say struggling, in terms of transitioning into their careers in Canada. They’re already in Canada but their credentials have not been recognized. And if you have noted recently on my platform, I’ve been talking about decredentialization, having high credentials is not yet recognized. So you end up doing survivor’s jobs and so your income earning potential has been significantly diminished.

So what I aim to do is to empower especially persons who are coming into Canada to let them know, “Hey, there is a possibility for you to transition smoothly into your career.” You can take an alternative route than coming to Canada as an international student, which is I believe one of the most expensive roads to come to Canada, or even coming and not having your degrees transferred, getting, passing your board exams.

Getting your pharmacist license recognized so that you can continue in your practice to create impact but also to make an income so that you can have a higher standard of living. I successfully transferred my license and I started while I was working in Jamaica, because I was so fortunate I had the discernment to know that if I move to Canada prior to getting my license, I’m going to have to move into the fast lane, but also be doing menial jobs, low income, so I might end up burning out.

I need to be doing maybe two or three jobs just so that I can survive because when you convert the dollar, it’s totally about being a millionaire in Jamaica. I’m a ten thousand-narian in Canada. A million Jamaican dollars is 10,000 Canadian. So it doesn’t stretch very far, especially with the cost of living. I wanted to help those international students who have the misconception that they need to first move to Canada and get their credentials transferred.

But if their desires or they desire to move to Canada, there is a way for you to zone in focus on passing those exams and getting into practice because statistics show that it’s in the low 40s the amount of international students who pass the exams, the statistics are very low. I think, again, it’s because of lack of knowledge. People are not aware of the commitment that they need to make to pass the exam.

The investment that they need to make to get through the programs that they need to go through so that they can, and I believe every single pharmacist across the globe, they are capable of going into their careers in Canada successfully, it’s just that they don’t know the right strategy. They need someone to maybe hold them accountable, someone to show them what pathway they need to take, what direction they need to go. They just probably need like a human compass and I think that’s where I stepped in.

[0:24:55.8] TU: They need a guide, right? They need someone that will help them along. I’m curious, our listeners know very well that there’s many challenges right now in community retail practice in the United States in terms of burnout and expectations and staffing. There’s obviously a lot of work that’s being focused in advocacy on that.

Because of that, are you seeing interest from pharmacists in the US potentially moving to Canada as well, or are those same challenges we see in community retail practice here in the US, are those very similar in Canada?

[0:25:28.7] HJ: I have seen interest from pharmacists in the US who want to move to Canada for a myriad of reasons including — it’s like in the US, where it’s state-to-state practice, each state they have their own scope of practice or their own regulations. It’s the same thing in Canada with provinces, but a province like Alberta where I was practicing, we have a wide scope of practice.

So it may be for the scope of practice, it may be to escape the burnout. The thing about pharmacy practice in Canada as well, because immigration, and people are coming in full force. A lot of people are migrating to Canada then the workload becomes that much heavier as well. So there is burnout being experienced by pharmacists in Canada as well but it depends on the settings.

It depends on whether you’re working with a corporation or if you are working for an independent, or you could be working in just about any setting. But I don’t know if the challenges that are being faced in the United States if it’s that the same magnitude in Canada. Again, the cultures are very different, things are quite subtle here and maybe Canadians, they don’t want to seem as if they’re complaining.

But a lot of the challenges that people are experiencing in the US I can say that, from my own experiences, that some of them are similar in Canada. It’s just that people are not advocating at the level that it’s been done in the US.

[0:26:59.4] TU: Havalee, as you are talking to people that might be thinking about making the transition as a pharmacist to Canada, I suspect you hear from a lot of folks that their interested but they may have some type of misperception about what that transition may look like. Is there a common one that typically folks have that might hold them up in their journey?

[0:27:18.4] HJ: Yes, Tim. So one of the most common misconceptions that persons have in terms of transitioning into their careers in Canada, they believe that they don’t have the money to get it done. They don’t think they have the financial needs. And I am here to tell them that, like my coach said to me, it is not a matter of resources, it’s a matter of being resourceful. So a lot of these folks who, they will say, “I am going to pursue the school road, I am going to apply for school.”

And this is where the misconception comes in, because it is more expensive for you to apply as a student than it is to apply to transition into your career as a pharmacist, and even to move to Canada as a pharmacist, as a skilled educated professional. And this is not limited to pharmacy alone. I’ve had just today a connection on LinkedIn sent me a message saying, “Hey, I came to Canada as a student and it lasted for three months and then I just spent my six months and I returned home because it was so expensive.”

The connection just said, “I spent 15k.” And if you are moving to Canada as a skilled, educated professional and you are a single person, you need about 14k to show the government proof of funding, about 14k. If you come as a student for one semester for three months, that’s 15k. You will not see that money again. The money for a year of residency, you will get to keep that money.

So the misconception is, “I need to come as a student, ride along on the struggle bus, and then struggle to get my credentials transferred, and then five years later, I’m still not registered.” I’ve had a colleague in pharmacy who has been in Canada for 10 years and still unregistered. I’ve had a colleague who’s been in Canada for four years and still unregistered. Another misconception if I may is that the exams are too hard.

Because the statistics are low, it doesn’t mean that it’s not passable. You just need to have a strategy, you need to have a plan, and you need to have your commitment. You need to have these things in place and once you pursue the exam, it’s kind of like going to pharmacy school, there’s no difference. You go through the exam, you pass your exams, you can transfer your licenses. So those are two of the biggest misconceptions that I have had.

[0:29:48.8] TU: Havalee, I am curious, since you are on the front end of this business journey, which I think many people will find refreshing hearing some of the early experiences you’ve had of starting the business. I’m curious, as you think out let’s just say three years as a marker, what does success look like for you three years from now?

Personally, with the business, I mean, I’m sure there is a lot of overlap there but as you’re at the beginning of this and obviously, you’re in the day-to-day, you’re kind of in the weeds, you’re thinking about growing it. But I know when I have these conversations there’s often these feelings of, even if it’s not clear, I kind of see the vision of where things are going. What does that look like for you in three years?

[0:30:26.5] HJ: In three years from now? Wow. I see myself running a very well-organized, fully-automated, technologically included business that merges healthcare with immigration. In three years, I see myself there. I see myself onboarding more people to solve the many problems that we have, whether it’s in the health system and also to help a lot of people to change their lives. The way immigration and moving to Canada has changed my life, I want that other person to have a similar experience and especially if they have a family.

They will get that social support and also to help them to up-level in their finances. I could introduce them to Tim. I was like, “Tim is a financial pharmacist.” Yeah, so in three years from now, I can see myself positioning myself in the marketplace as the go-to person for any internationally educated pharmacist as well as persons who are interested in migrating to Canada.

[0:31:29.8] TU: I love that. Here’s the reason why I asked that question, well one, I’m curious but two, as I talk with a lot of aspiring or early pharmacy entrepreneurs, I’m often encouraging them like you’re in the weeds, you’re building it, you’re wearing every single hat of the business. That’s what you need to do when you get started but it’s so important even if you don’t know exactly where things are going to go, because none of us do.

This will evolve over time. It is so important to have even a fuzzy north star of what is this vision for a couple of reasons, one, that gives us the focus of, “Does the activities I’m working on, the products and services I’m developing, how I’m spending my time, does that line up towards that vision?” And obviously gives us clarity to the messaging that we have both for ourselves as well as externally.

Then I think it also provides a really important source of motivation, right? Because something you just shared there highlights that so well. You said, “In three years I really see running a well-oiled technologically included business with a lot of automation that is focused on the intersection of immigration and healthcare.” Now, pharmacists moving and practicing in Canada, that can be one piece of that business, right?

But the intersection of immigration and healthcare is a much bigger vision and obviously, you are taking a very important first step right now. So I love that you’ve thought about that. I think it is such a good example of what are the things that I am doing right now, the steps that I am taking, the efforts that I’m moving, the products and services I’m developing, and how does that align with where I want to see things going in three to five years, so really cool.

Thanks for sharing. I want to wrap up by asking you two questions, which I have stolen from Tim Ferriss who ask some really great questions on his podcast. That first question is, in the last let’s say couple of years since you’ve made this transition, what new belief, behavior, or habit has had the most significant impact on you personally or professionally?

[0:33:34.0] HJ: So over the last five years or let’s say ten years, let me just even say even three years, a lot has shifted for me both personally and professionally and I’ve had to embrace a new mindset, I’ve had to embrace a new philosophy and I’ve had to become a student. I have had to question my belief system and the things that I grew up knowing. I’ve had to unlearn a lot of the things, unlearn the belief that I wasn’t worthy enough, I wasn’t good enough.

That there were limited supplies of everything out there when there actually is an abundance. I’ve had to retrain my brain and I’ve gotten into personal development. But one of the things that I’ve done most is embrace the fact that if I want to get to where I want to go, I need to do things differently and I have to invest in me. And not just investment in terms of monetary investment, but invest in my mindset, in up-leveling my mindset.

So, I’ve had to surround myself with other women in business, in a community setting where there are people who are empowering you and inspiring you and not just settling for mediocre things. I’ve had to make that shift and I’m so grateful that I’ve had, again, the discernment to know that. If I see things going on a particular trajectory and they want a different outcome, then I can. I have the power within to change that direction, so yeah.

[0:35:05.5] TU: That’s a really good one. I think it’s so important that we are aware of what are those external influences or the stories that we’re telling ourselves that are leading to some of those self-limiting beliefs and behaviors that we have. Well, one of the real examples of this, you probably see this all the time is you mentioned the 40% passage rate of that examination, right?

I can almost assure you that if you talk with someone that does not know that number and you know, maybe they are confident about this transition, they’re feeling good about it, they’re confident in their abilities and all of a sudden, you throw that number on them like I am sure you can see the confidence and the demeanor change, and all of a sudden the ceiling comes down of what they think is possible.

I think it is so important that we’re constantly examining where do these beliefs come from and why do I have this ceiling in my mind? We all have them, when we think about our goals over the next year even in 2023, even if we are challenged to think big, dream big, we all have a ceiling. It is just a really interesting question of like, “Where does that come and why is that there?” Gay Hendricks talks about this in The Big Leap, which is a great book that I kind of –

[0:36:12.5] HJ: That’s the book that I just completed, just completed.

[0:36:14.5] TU: Oh cool.

[0:36:15.6] HJ: Yes, talk about that ceiling and how when we get there, we tend to self-sabotage. I love that book, I love the concepts that it brings across.

[0:36:25.7] TU: My second question for you Havalee here again, stealing this from Tim Ferriss is when you feel overwhelmed or unfocused, what do you do to refocus and get yourself back on the right path?

[0:36:36.5] HJ: So, I tell people that I have a really short attention span but that’s not true. What I’ve come to realize is that I’m not focusing on the most important things that I need to get done, so I get distracted. I get sidetracked. Whenever I feel unfocused or overwhelmed, I first have to check my environment. What is it in my environment that I need to remove? What is it that I need to, what systems do I need to put in place? What habits do I need to reinstall?

For me, I listen to Patrice Washington’s podcast, where she said, “Clutter is a physical manifestation of chaos in your mind.” I check my environment to see if everything is organized, what do I need to clear out. I also try to do some brain dump, I do write out the things that just free up my mental queue. I also do journaling and sometimes I do meditation, I don’t do it often enough. I know I need to get centered and get focused and get realigned and write out the things that are most important to me.

What is it that I need to get done right now that’s going to have the greatest impact on the big goals that I have for myself and just to add to that, it’s funny that when I was operating in my imposter syndrome, that I felt fearless because I didn’t know that I had imposter syndrome. I was just smashing through goals and moving from one goal to the other and then when people were like, “Okay, so how did you do that?”

I was like, “It’s no big deal” because I was just operating. But now that I am more centered and becoming more aware of who I am and what I bring to the table, I am smashing through my imposter syndrome and just showing up anyway and trying to de-identify. It will take some time but try to de-identify, I need to divorce imposter syndrome altogether so that I can operate in my greatness and operate in alignment.

[0:38:38.5] TU: I love that reflection and I think the comments you have about clutter are really interesting. I found that as well that sometimes it needs to be a brain dump, sometimes it needs to be a physical organization of the space so that we can focus and align and get ourselves working on the thing that’s most important.

Other times I have found that sometimes we’re not working on the most important task, because typically there’s some fear that might be underlying us wanting to lean into that. We’re working on something that’s maybe a little bit easier or not as significant or that fear doesn’t reside is kind of an escape route, that typically fear of failure, but it could also be fear of our identity or what other people think, fear of success, exactly, so.

[0:39:20.2] HJ: I have experienced that myself.

[0:39:22.6] TU: Yeah, an important question for folks to reflect on, if you find yourself often not focusing on perhaps the most significant or meaningful work that you could be doing, what’s driving that and if it’s fear, what’s behind some of that fear? So Havalee, this has been awesome as I knew it would be. Where is the best place that folks can go to learn more about you and to follow your journey?

[0:39:44.8] HJ: Oh, absolutely. So I may be found on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. I go by my actual name Havalee, surname Johnson. On Instagram, I’m @havalee_89. On Facebook, I’m Havalee Johnson and that is in fact my real name. I’ve had persons reach out to me like, “What is your real name?” I say that’s my real name.

That it’s because a lot of persons have been scammed, a lot of persons have had encounters with people who are not authentic and so they’re questioning whether or not this person is real. Like out of nowhere Havalee showed up prior to March, April of 2022, I was a ghost on LinkedIn. I would not show up, I would not write anything, I would not advocate.

If Tim had asked me to appear on his podcast, well, he wouldn’t have known me but if he just mysteriously came across me and say, “Hey, would you like to be on my show?” I’d be like, “No.” I have passed up important opportunities in the past. So I appreciate being on your platform, Tim. Thank you so much for having me and it was so great connecting with you on LinkedIn, that’s where it started.

[0:40:53.2] TU: Thank you for saying yes and I hope folks will follow your journey. I’ve enjoyed it as well. So thank you for taking time to come on the show, I appreciate it.

[0:40:58.7] HJ: Thank you for having me.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:41:00.0] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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