yfpadmin

YFP 225: How to Navigate Open Enrollment and Employer Benefits

Posted on October 14, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How to Navigate Open Enrollment and Employer Benefits

On this episode, sponsored by GoodRx, Tim Baker, YFP Co-founder and YFP Planning Director of Financial Planning, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about open enrollment and evaluating employer benefits. Tim and Tim dig into:

Considerations for choosing a health insurance plan
How to determine whether or not your employer-provided life and disability insurance is sufficient (one of the most common questions we get)
Understanding the differences between an FSA, Dependent Care FSA, and HSA
What to be looking for when putting money into your employer-sponsored retirement plan.

Summary

This week on the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, Tim Ulbrich sits down with YFP co-owner and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, to discuss open enrollment and the process of evaluating employer benefits. As you go into making your benefit selections for 2022, Tim and Tim share some considerations for choosing a health insurance plan and how to determine whether or not your employer-provided life and disability insurance are sufficient. Tim and Tim provide a general overview into understanding the differences between an FSA, Dependent Care FSA, and HSA and what to be looking for when putting money into your employer-sponsored retirement plan.

Whether you are reviewing your benefits for the first time or are a seasoned professional with open enrollment, there are many factors to consider. Pharmacists may not think to consult with their financial planners when it comes to open enrollment or the process of evaluating employer benefits, but these decisions affect the financial plan. When choosing a plan for the coming year, pharmacists should consider future life events or changes impacting money spent on medical expenses such as a child being born, marriage or divorce, coverage for a significant other, or a child aging out of medical coverage. The open enrollment period is a time to review history in medical spending, how much is spent out of pocket, and how to optimize benefits and cost savings based on those findings.

Tim Baker touches on life insurance and disability insurance, how to calculate your total need, transferability issues to consider when deciding whether or not to purchase a policy outside of your employer policy, and tax considerations.

Tim Ulbrich closes out by breaking down the differences between an FSA, DCFSA, and HSA. He also touches on retirement savings accounts in conjunction with open enrollment and the opportunity to re-evaluate investing and savings goals and how each fits in with the financial plan.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, glad to have you back on the show.

Tim Baker: Yeah, good to be here, Tim. Looking forward to getting into open enrollment discussion. ‘Tis the season. So yeah, I’m ready for it.

Tim Ulbrich: ‘Tis the season indeed. Fall is in the air officially here in Ohio, which does mean it’s almost time for open enrollment and ensuring that we’re taking the time to understand and maximize employer benefits. And I think whether someone is reviewing their benefits for the first time, whether that’s accepting a new position, going through another round of open enrollment, a lot to consider here, including insurance, retirement accounts and HSAs, FSAs, to name a few. So Tim, our team at YFP Planning includes employer benefits as a part of the planning process, perhaps an area that folks don’t necessarily associate working with their financial planner on. So how does this part, employer benefits, factor into the financial plan? And why is it so important that we’re looking at it in the planning process?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I think this is another area, Tim, where like when we say, “comprehensive,” we mean comprehensive. And it’s just like kind of the same conversation with things like home purchase. Most financial advisors are not going to kind of walk you through kind of the A-Z of buying a home because most of the time, a financial advisor is working with people in their 50s, 60s, 70s, right? And the reason for that is because those are the people that have assets, and that’s how they charge their fee. We have many, many, many clients that are in their 20s and 30s. And things like home purchase is really important and is often a big step in their financial journey and their financial plan. So we kind of take the time to go through that based on, I know you’ve said it, I’ve said it, we’ve messed those transactions up in the past, and we just don’t want to see our clients do the same thing. So open enrollment is kind of the same thing. A lot of financial advisors don’t really talk about this stuff because if you’re working with people in their 50s, 60s, like they’ve done it dozens of times, right? So they’ve gone through this. And a lot of our clients haven’t. You know, it’s not something that is kind of what we understand. And so to define open enrollment, open enrollment is the period of time where you can purchase or apply for health insurance for the upcoming year without a qualifying event. And usually a qualifying event is something like a marriage or a divorce or a birth of a child. So it’s typically very centered on the health insurance plan because that’s the big piece of the benefits. But then what the employer does is kind of have you opt out of other benefits that they might offer, which might be life insurance, disability, I’ve even seen things like pet insurance and things like that. You know, some things that are not insurance-related could be like a legal benefit. So that’s what this is is open enrollment. And it’s important because your employer benefits are a major component of your compensation package. And you know, this is kind of the conversation that goes back to things like salary negotiation is I’ve seen clients, they’ll say, “Hey, I’m making $110,000,” and they get an offer for $120,000 but they take a major step back with regard to their total compensation because of the benefits that are associated with that. I think it’s really important to understand what the employer benefits are and how to assess that. So that’s really what’s at stake here is really understanding that piece. And we know this, Tim, because when we plan to hire someone, we know that it’s not just about the salary pay. We apply a multiple on top of that because we know that the benefits that we’re going to provide for the employee are going to be above and beyond that. So that total cost or what I would say is an investment in that person is really beyond the salary. So this is what is really that bell to that. We’re trying to assess an an employee to say, OK, how can I best optimize this part of my compensation. And I would say that there is a lot, you know, a lot of people that don’t necessarily fully optimize this part of their financial plan or give it the attention that it needs because it sneaks up on us or bad information or what have you. So that’s really kind of the overall picture here of what it is and why it’s important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and Tim, I think when you say sneaks up on us, bad information, it’s important I think for folks, basic stuff before we jump into individual benefits, you know, know your dates, obviously what’s the time span. You know, a lot of employers, depending on how they organize this, will do informational sessions, open Q&As, one-on-ones, group, and some of that might be automated, depending on the system and the platform they’re using. But making sure, understanding the dates, you know, simple things, how much time do you have if you’re going to be on vacation, things like that, making sure you can coordinate with HR. And then also, you know, just taking a look at your pay stub and your benefits. What do you currently have? And really taking a pulse on — and I think just a chance to go back and what’s gross pay, what’s net pay, what’s coming out in benefits, and taking this time that comes around every year as a chance to revisit some of these things that we want to be looking at often. And then of course, just thinking about upcoming changes, right, that might be happening. You know, I think of things like children that might be beneficiaries on the healthcare side, aging out if you think about 26 or folks that might be expecting or perhaps getting married, things that might have an impact on their benefits, considering those things as you’re in the benefits selection. And then of course just refreshing and updating the evaluation of who are the beneficiaries that are listed on certain policies. Tim, I want to start with health insurance. You know, I think it’s the one that typically carries the biggest price tag as we think about it relative to the other insurance and typically carries more options than things like dental and vision and life and disability, which I think for many employers it’s more of a one-way type of option. So the big question here is how do I determine which one to get? And of course, all plans are created differently but when folks are looking at these and you’re evaluating the deductibles and maximum out-of-pockets and premiums and copays and coinsurance, unfortunately, it’s a system that even though our audience is comfortable with all of those numbers because they live in it in the job that they’ve done or have been trained in it previously, there’s just a lot to consider. And if you look at plans, let’s consider a three-tiered plan where you’ve got like a bronze, silver, gold option, you know, you’re looking at OK, less out of pocket, more out of pocket, better coverage, but perhaps I could have lower out of pocket and I could use that money elsewhere. Like general framework, how do you begin to help clients think through this decision and not just look at it in a silo but also consider it in the context of the rest of the plan?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think it’s — you know, everyone can say it with me — it depends, right? So you know, I think a lot of it depends on past history or — you know, you mentioned a few things like what’s kind of on the horizon? Is it getting married or having kids? And some of those will allow you to kind of elect insurance outside of the open enrollment period. But those are typically qualifying events. But you know, an example is when we had Liam, when Shea was pregnant with Liam, we opted out of the bronze package, you know, the HSA plan to more of a gold package because we knew that the doctor bills and the hospital bills were going to be there. Our thought process was, you know, although in most cases we’re not going to the doctor a lot, you know, during a normal year, well, electing to a higher deductible plan, which means less coming out of our paycheck but then when we do go to the doctor, there’s going to be potentially more coming out of our pocket. So we did that to get in front of it a little bit. And you know, that’s really important from a planning perspective and kind of mitigating as much of the costs — and we probably saved ourselves if we did the math $1,000 by doing that. So that’s an important part of the plan. Now, sometimes things are going to come up and you’re just not going to — you know, it’s kind of like that emergency fund. You’re just not going to know for the future. But I would say is it’s a little bit of an exercise in looking at your past history, so looking at how often you’re going to the doctor and how often you’re reaching into your pocket to pay for things like copays and things like that. But then also projecting it forward, so that’s kind of where the conversation starts is that, you know, if you’re a younger, healthy professional and you’re not really going to the doctor, then you probably should really consider kind of a bronze, high-deductible, HDHP plan and couple that with the HSA, which we’ve said is a great forum to stash dollars. If you’re looking at regular doctor visits because of a chronic issue or something like that, that’s not going to be for you, regardless of your age. You just know that you’re going to be in and out of the doctor’s office. So I think it’s really looking at, again, kind of the budget and seeing what money has been spent on healthcare costs in the past and then what you think, project those going forward. And like I said, like this is not — it’s important, but these are taking it like snapshots one year at a time. So you can — like after Liam was born and the medical expenses were gone, then we went back to the high-deductible plan with the HSA. So I think it’s really important to kind of take stock of kind of your history, your medical history, your spending on healthcare, to form the baseline of your decision in that realm. The other comment I would make, Tim, is not all 401k’s are created equal. And as many of us know, not all health plans are created equal. So some are really, really great, and some are really, really terrible. And sometimes, that has to do with the size of the organization, sometimes the economies to scale, the bigger that you are, the less that each participant pays, whether that’s the 401k or the health insurance plan. So you kind of have to work with the sandbox, you know, that you’re playing in, so to speak, and something that can be very much out of your control.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think, Tim, your example of Liam is a great reminder of not putting open enrollment on auto pilot.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that’s what we’re trying to stress here is like, using this as a chance to re-evaluate each year, you know, what happened last year? What worked last year may or may not be what makes sense for this year for a variety of reasons. And I think this is certainly a place where we want to be evaluating what does the cash position look like? What does the reserves look like? And how do we feel about that? Especially if we’re going to be opting into a high-deductible health plan, you know, thinking worst case scenario — hopefully never happens — looking at those out-of-pocket maxes and really asking yourself, how comfortable are we with that happening? How does that make us feel? And could we weather that storm if it were to come?

Tim Baker: Yeah, and you know, and we’ve had some tough conversations with clients that are deep in credit card debt and they really need as much of their income to kind of like right the ship and get going, so sometimes it means sacrificing or being uncomfortable here. You know, one of the things I look at is like if we look at all the debts that are out there, medical debt is not necessarily a bad debt in terms of like they reformed a lot of things with it hurting your credit because it’s kind of been a nightmare, you’re typically not gouged with higher interest rates and things like that. So typically more forgiven. I would even say push back on a lot of medical debt because it’s wrong. I think Tim, you had a story about that when one of your sons was born. So there’s a little bit more give I would say than some of these other ones that goes like right to collections and you’re in a lot of trouble. So it’s kind of — this is all about like mitigating the risk and trying to understand where can we give a little bit so we’re OK.

Tim Ulbrich: I want to shift gears, Tim, to life and disability. Probably one of the most common questions that we get is, do I need to purchase additional life and disability insurance beyond what my employer covers? And of course the answer is it depends on a large part of the individual’s situation and what they have going on and what they’re trying to do with those policies and so forth. But you know, general thoughts and discussion on how one goes about making this decision in terms of understanding what coverage is there from an employer standpoint, determining what total coverage may be needed, and some of the gap and differences between an employer plan and if they purchased a policy out on the open market.

Tim Baker: I think if we look at most pharmacists out there, you know, professionals that are making a six-figure salary, I think there’s going to come a time when there probably is a need to purchase policies outside of what the employer provides. Now, the problem with the financial services industry is that a lot of “financial advisors” are trying to push those policies on a young professional when they probably don’t need them. That’s when you’re a pharmacist that has maybe six figures of debt that’s going to be forgiven if you die or are disabled with no dependents and really, you know, not much on your balance sheet. So there’s kind of like this gap of do I really need this? Or can I just make do with what my employer provides? I’ll say this about the employer-provided policies: Outside of health insurance, which is a health plan, I would say that things like life and disability insurance are not plans. They’re really perks. So they’re meant to supplement or meant to provide some type of benefit that will help the employee but also it’s a way to kind of retain you and things like that. So I really view these as perks and not necessarily plans. I would say, to your point, Tim, I think it’s really looking at the individual and say OK, does it make sense to buy a policy outside of that? Most employers will provide some type of life insurance benefit, whether it’s something like $50,000 or one or two times income, which you can then elect to either increase your coverage or not. I think the downside of that is, you know, if you’re working for an employer as a 30-year-old and you have all of your eggs in that basket and you’re saying, “Hey, I have $1 million” or a lot of times, they’re capped. Most times, pharmacists need a lot more than what their employer can provide. So that’s one of the drawbacks. But if you’re working with that company for 40 years and then you leave to go to another organization, which maybe that isn’t provided or it’s a lot less of a benefit, you have a gap, then you’re going out in the market 10 years older where you’re paying a lot more for that particular policy. So that’s one of the things that — sometimes they’re portable, meaning that you can take them with you, and sometimes they’re not. So for both the life and disability, you know, it’s really looking at your own situation. Just like open enrollment itself, this is one of the things that often overlooked, just insurance. And I know we’ve probably done a podcast in the past about what’s proper life and disability and things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: For the disability, the coverage is typically going to be a percentage of your income. And again, it could be capped, and some employers will offer both long-term and short-term disability. You know, both are great. But you know, oftentimes, because of one reason or another, there’s going to be a gap in the coverage either because of taxes or just that a pharmacist, what they make and what most professionals will say that you need to kind of cover down and typically, that can be anywhere from 50-80% of what your income is, that there is a need to go out onto the open market and buy individual policies. But from an open enrollment perspective, I think if you don’t have those policies, it’s really important to understand, you know, what is there for you? And what can at least tide you over until you get those policies in place? And again, it’s one of those things where it’s like, it’s not important to you until it’s important to you. And it’s really hard to kind of, to show that to clients unless they’ve experienced that pain themselves or a close family member.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: But it’s going to be a really important piece of protecting the overall financial plan, which is — this is really what this is all about is, you know, insurance is really protecting the financial plan from a catastrophic event and ensuring that you can continue to build wealth and survive into the future.

Tim Ulbrich: Episode 044, Tim, How to Determine Life Insurance Needs, 045, How to Determine Disability Insurance Needs, two that we’ll link to in the show notes. We’ve got more information on the website as well, YourFinancialPharmacist.com. Tim, I think one of the common mistakes I see made here just relating to that discussion on gap in coverage is not digging into the policies to really understand, you know, life insurance is maybe the most obvious example where if you have a policy — if you have a need for life insurance and you have a term policy that’s offered for $50,000 or $100,000 or one times salary or two times salary, typically, those have a cap on them. For many folks, there’s going to be a gap and a shortage. And I think this is where, you know, sitting down one-on-one with someone to really calculate the total need, think about the transferability issues that you mentioned and what does it mean if you pick up employment, tax considerations, and really getting into the weeds of some of the nuances of the policies and things like own occupation, we’ve talked about that before and its importance. And again, thinking about how this fits in with the rest of the plan. And just a shoutout here to our fee-only financial planning team at YFP Planning, this is really where I think the value of fee-only comes in in that really sitting down with someone to determine what is their true need in their best interests. Not too much coverage that there’s dollars being spent that could be put elsewhere in the financial plan, but making sure we’re also not exposing the plan to unnecessary risk.

Tim Baker: Yeah, I mean, you know, this — what we’re talking about here are products. Like insurance is a product. So any time that you talk about dispensing a device, “Hey, Tim, you need life insurance,” and you say, “OK, great. Like where do I get it?” Like we can sell you this product. There’s going to be a conflict of interest. So having someone that is a fee-only fiduciary that is not further enriched by the advice that they’re giving, you know, strips away a lot of that, well, am I being advised in my best interests or in the advisor’s best interests, the one that’s advising me. So that’s I think the beauty of fee-only.

Tim Ulbrich: One example I just want to give here, I just pulled up, Tim, our long-term disability coverage that we added recently for the YFP team.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And you know, if you look at it on kind of the main benefits platform, it says, “60% monthly income up to $6,000.” But this is an example where digging deeper is so valuable. You know, you get into things like what is the definition of earnings? So our policy, it’s base wage. So how you’re compensated could have an impact here.

Tim Baker: Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: What’s the elimination period or the timeframe from when the disability happens to when the benefit starts to pay out? Here, it’s 90 days. But if it’s shorter than that, perhaps longer than that, what’s the game plan to fund. Does it have own occupation coverage? We’ve talked about the importance of that before. What’s the maximum benefit? Our policy goes up to age 65. And then things like coverage restrictions, other incentives. So really, just a reminder of this time period and using this point here to really dig into this information and read the policies.

Tim Baker: Yeah, you know, and again, going back to those episodes you mentioned there, that’s where we kind of talk about the nitty-gritty, but I think the beautiful thing about this is like when we’re reviewing this and we kind of look at the — kind of go through the open enrollment optimization stuff is like as a planner, I’m looking at your balance sheet. So I’m like, alright, does it make sense to bolster — you know, because a lot of these, you can opt in. So like our policy doesn’t do this, but a lot of policies, they’ll say, “The employer pays for a 60% benefit of your earnings.” But then you can opt in to get that up to 80%. So you pay an additional — you pay out of pocket out of your paycheck for that additional 20%. If I’m looking at your balance sheet, Tim, and I’m saying, “Man, you have plenty of cash,” I would say, “Let’s not opt into that.” Or we might say, “Let’s do it,” because we know because the employer is going to pay for it, that that benefit’s going to be taxed.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: If the employer pays for the benefit, it’s going to be taxed. That’s the gap. You know, so the idea is looking at your situation and overlaying what’s out there. I think the open enrollment, what I say is we want to look at the things that you’re paying for and say, does it make sense for you to be paying for it? I see a lot of AD&D insurance, and I kind of look at this as like — and again, this is not advice — but I kind of look at those as like when you buy something at Best Buy and they ask you about the warranty. You know, most of the time, you say no because it’s just not worth the money. Some of these things in open enrollment, it’s the same thing. It’s like AD&D, for those to pay out is very rare. So even if it’s $2 per pay period, I’m like, I just don’t think it’s worth it. So we’re trying to make sure that you’re not paying for things that don’t necessarily provide you much benefit, much utility. But then you are paying for things that do. And you know, kind of finding that Venn diagram of sorts to make sure that, again, we’re fully optimized with regard to this part of your compensation package.

Tim Ulbrich: AD&D, for folks that are wondering, Accidental Death & Dismemberment insurance.

Tim Baker: Oh yeah. Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker dropping some financial lingo here.

Tim Baker: Sorry about that. Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, next I want to talk about FSAs, dependent care FSAs, especially since we’ve had some changes that have happened there as well as HSAs. And we’ve talked probably among these to the greatest extent, we’ve talked about HSAs because of the value of what that can provide as well as these other options. And we’ve talked about it on the podcast, we’ve got some blog posts, Episode 165, The Power of a Health Savings Account, also have an article on the blog, which we’ll link to, about really more of the strategic investing side of an HSA if you’re able to do that. So Tim, high level overview, FSA, dependent care FSA, HSA, and some of the differences and considerations for these accounts.

Tim Baker: The very crude way that I remember the difference between FSA and HSA is FSAs are really use-or-lose. So when you fund these with pre-tax dollars, if you don’t use those monies for the purposes of healthcare for an FSA for healthcare or dependent care for a dependent care FSA, you lose it. So it’s F-udge. Like I don’t get — you don’t get to use that money. Whereas the HSA, this is — can potentially be an accrual account, meaning that year over year, you can stack Benjamins and hopefully one day becomes that kind of stealth IRA that we talk about that has that triple tax benefit. So like I said, we’ve talked about the HSA ad nauseum. It has to be paired with a high-deductible health plan. You know, you can put the money in. It has a triple tax benefit, which means it goes in pre-tax, it grows tax-free so you can invest it like an IRA, and then you can distribute it in the near term for approved medical costs or when you reach a certain age, you can use it basically for whatever. So that’s the beauty of the HSA. But you know, again, it only works or you only have access to it when it’s paired with a high-deductible health plan. The FSA for healthcare is similar, but very different. So you’re allowed to use — you’re allowed to fund it with pre-tax dollars, meaning if you make $100,000 and you put $1,000 in there, you’re taxed on as if $99,000. So I think the limits for FSA for 2021, I think it’s like $2,750.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yep.

Tim Baker: Yeah. So the idea is that what you’re trying to do here — it’s a little bit of a game of chicken. So what you’re trying to do is really, again, see into the future and say, “OK, what do I know is a baseline that I’m going to use on my out-of-pocket healthcare expenses?” And if you know for sure that you’re going to spending $2,000 on that, then you should fund it with $2,000. And typically, there is a little bit of give at the end of the year where you can either carry some over or you have some time into the New Year to use it on.

Tim Ulbrich: Two months or —

Tim Baker: Yeah. And every plan is going to be different in its design. So you might be loading up on kind of some of the over-the-counter stuff. I’ve had a client buy a bunch of stuff for like contacts and things like that. So it’s going to be really important to kind of — again, this goes back to the spending plan, the budget, to understand what have you been spending in the past? Is that going to be indicative of what you will spend in the future? And then fund that with at least that baseline amount so you don’t lose it. The same thing can be said for the dependent care FSA. So this is a pre-tax account that you can fund that is used for care for your child who is age 13, for before- and after-school care, babysitting, nanny expenses, daycare, nursery school, preschool, summer day camp, and then also care for a spouse or a relative who is physically or mentally unable to care for themselves and lives in your home. So this money — this has actually been amended under the American Rescue Plan Act. So I think for single and married filing jointly couples, the pre-tax contribution limit went from where you could $5,000 a year, now it’s I think $10,500.

Tim Ulbrich: Significant jump. Yep.

Tim Baker: Yeah, very significant. So the higher limits apply to the plan year beginning Dec. 31, 2020 and before Jan. 1, 2022. So it is a temporary thing, but it allows you to park some dollars that you would otherwise — so if you’re in a 25% tax bracket, it’s as if you’re saving 25%, kind of thinking about it that way. So that’s what really — and for the FSAs, unlike the HSA, the FSA is — it has to be provided by the employer. I think we had a question on the Ask a YFP CFP about the HSA. And you don’t have to necessarily go through your employer. Sometimes, the employer doesn’t offer it. So you can go out and set up your own HSA. The FSA has to be provided by the employer for you to have access to it. So that’s really important. Again, these are all going to be — when you elect it, it’s going to take money out of your paycheck and basically fund these accounts for the appropriate purpose.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and this to me is where when we’ve talked with Paul Eikenberg, our director of tax, and working with our clients, one of the things he talks about here is these being untapped areas of potential.

Tim Baker: Totally.

Tim Ulbrich: And so I think there’s a lot of low-hanging fruit in the financial plan. And I think really evaluating these and perhaps the dollars of any one don’t jump out as being super significant, but I think as we start to add these up with other strategies, there certainly is value. And Tim, you had mentioned we did tackle a question recently on Ask a YFP CFP 084. The question was about fees on an HSA account, but we did talk about the opportunity to access an HSA account independent of the employer. So we’ve talked about health insurance, we’ve talked about life and disability, we’ve talked about FSAs and HSAs and dependent care FSAs. I want to wrap up our discussion by retirement saving options. And I think, again, this is an opportunity to take a step back, look at the overall progress on the investing part of the plan, overall goals, perhaps gap between the goals and where you’re currently at, and then to evaluate where does investing fit in with the rest of the financial plan. And so when we think about, Tim, employer-sponsored retirement accounts, two main buckets we have, which are those that are Roth contributions and those that are traditional. So define for us the difference between those two for folks that are — maybe have some outstanding questions about those or unsure as well as the limits of what we’re able to do in 2021.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so — and I’ll preface this by saying that most of — you know, open enrollment is a good time to check in on your retirement savings options. You’re not necessarily bound to that because you can go in —

Tim Ulbrich: Correct.

Tim Baker: — really at any time and say, “Hey, I was putting in 5%. I talked to a YFP planner, and they said I should put in 8%. That’ll put me on track to get my $5 million nest egg, so that’s what I want to do.” I can really do that at any time. Or I can say, “I want less Roth and more traditional,” or whatever the case is. So it’s just a good opportunity, it’s a good checkpoint to say, OK, where am I at and should I make any tweaks? So — and one of the things that they often do here is they allow you to put in an escalator. So you know — and you can do this any time too, but it’s a good thing to do in open enrollment so every year, you can increase that by 1% or 2% or whatever that looks like. So to answer your question, Tim, the Roth v. traditional, so most employers will offer a 401k or a 403b or if you work for the government, a TSP. So when you elect your retirement options here, a lot of them will now — you’ll have a traditional — so think of two buckets. You’ll have a traditional 401k and a Roth 401k.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: And they’re all under the same plan, but they segregate the monies because for a traditional, these are pre-tax dollars. So that example I gave you is if you put in $1,000 into your 401k and you make $100,00 — your traditional 401k — and you make $100,000, you’re taxed as if you made $99,000. For a Roth, it’s after-tax. So same example, if you put $1,000 into your Roth 401k and you make $100,000, you are taxed as if you made $100,000 because you’re not getting that pre-tax deduction. So for these dollars, the money is either taxed going in or coming out. So for a traditional, you’re not taxed going in, but then it grows tax-free inside of that account, and then you’re taxed when it is distributed, hopefully in retirement. For the Roth 401k, you’re taxed going in, so you don’t get that deduction, but then it grows tax-free and when it comes out, it’s not taxed because it’s already been taxed going in. So a lot of people will say Roth, Roth, Roth. And again, it’s going to depend on your plan. It’s going to depend on what you’re trying to achieve. And a lot of people get this wrong as well. So this is another good check on it to make sure that you’re putting the dollars in the right spot. Your match that your employer provides, if there is a match, is always going to go into a traditional account.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: So if there is a match, you’re going to have — some people get it twisted like, I’m 100% in my Roth 401k, but I see money in my traditional, like what gives? And I’m like, well, this is the money that your employer is matching. It’s going to go there, you know, regardless. So it’s really important, you know — so to kind of give you some numbers with 2021, to max out a 401k, a 403b, it’s $19,500. So you can put that in regardless of how much money you make. So that’s really going to be the limit for the 401k. IRAs are a completely different animal. They’re $6,000, this completely separate accounting mechanism. And that’s going to be dependent on your income whether you can put it in directly into a Roth or a traditional IRA and if you get the deduction. And I know we’ve had podcasts on that as well. But the point of this, Tim, is that the open enrollment exercise is a great opportunity to kind of just do a once-over for your retirement savings options and just make sure that one, you’re in the proper allocation but then it’s also in the Roth v. traditional, and then just making sure that you don’t get stuck in that hey, my employer matches 3%, so for 10 years, I’ve just been putting in 3%. You don’t want to do that because more often than not, it’s not going to be enough for you to retire comfortably. So this is another way to kind of check those things and push the envelope a little bit.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I point folks back to Episode 074, when we talked about evaluating your 401k plan, also more recently, Episode 208, when we talked about why minimizing fees on your investments is so important. Certainly relevant here as we talk about employer-sponsored retirement plans where we can see a lot of variabilities in those investment options and in the fees. As we’ve said a couple times now throughout the show, open enrollment is such a great time to take a step back and evaluate the financial plan. And for folks that are going through this process and think, you know, I really see the value in working with someone one-on-one to look at the financial plan holistically, to determine how to prioritize the goals, make some of these decisions around open enrollment, could be debt repayment, investing, tax evaluation, and so forth. We’d love to have a chance to talk with you about the YFP Planning comprehensive financial planning services that we conduct on a one-on-one basis. And you can learn more about those services as well as schedule a free discovery call by going to YFPPlanning.com. As always, thank you so much for listening. We hope you have a great rest of your week and look forward to having you join us again next week.

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YFP 224: How & Why One Canadian Pharmacist Paid Off $100K of Debt

Posted on October 7, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How & Why One Canadian Pharmacist Paid Off $100K of Debt

On this episode, sponsored by Thoughtful Wills, Sachin Duggal discusses his career journey, how and why he aggressively paid off $100k in debt, and trends in pharmacy education and practice in Canada.

About Today’s Guest

Sachin Duggal is a clinical pharmacist and consultant practicing within the Toronto, Ontario area in Canada. Sachin’s current areas of practice are community-based with a focus in complex geriatric care, diabetes education, and hypertension management where he works with family physicians to optimize treatment plans. He also works as an Academic Detailer, engaging with physicians on the latest evidence in different disease states.

Sachin obtained his Doctor of Pharmacy and Honours Bachelor of Science degrees from the University of Waterloo and has gone on to work in a variety of practice settings including hospital, community, and family health teams across the province of Ontario in Canada.

As a recent graduate, Sachin has taken a keen interest in personal finance, building wealth, and optimizing student loan repayment using various financial incentives and products within Canada.

Summary

This week, Tim Ulbrich welcomes Sachin Duggal, a pharmacist from Canada who works as an Academic Detailer, to the show. Sachin discusses his career journey, how and why he aggressively paid off $100k in debt, and what trends in pharmacy education and practice in Canada are similar and different to those in the United States.

Financial freedom was a driving force in Sachin’s debt-free journey. He felt the pressure of student debt and didn’t like the feeling of debt looming over him. By contributing up to 70% of his income to education loan repayment, Sachin is now debt-free with maxed-out retirement investments. Now he is looking forward to his future, investing in real estate, and enjoying the feeling of making his money work for him.

Sachin shares his observations on the differences in the education system and trends in the current state of pharmacy in Canada compared to the United States. While many Canadian pharmacists take on a slightly lower student debt, there are additional educational benefits. Professional students may be eligible for a line of credit, as in Sachin’s case, which can be used to drive down student debt with some intentional financial moves. Sachin’s observations on trends include a downward trajectory on pharmacist salaries in urban areas, similar to that of the United States, based on the supply and demand of pharmacists. He shares that in more rural areas, the salaries may be more competitive. He notes, pharmacists in the United States may be less willing to work multiple part-time positions versus a single full-time opportunity due to the necessity of medical benefits. Universal health care in Canada permits relatively low-risk opportunities to piece together part-time jobs when full-time positions aren’t available.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Sachin, welcome to the show.

Sachin Duggal: Thanks for having me, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich: Well I really appreciate you reaching out to me via LinkedIn several months ago to provide some of the viewpoint of a pharmacist that’s working in Canada, a topic we haven’t talked about on the show, which is exciting. And during a follow-up call that you and I had, I really enjoyed learning more about some of the similarities and differences of the profession that we both love in pharmacy and some of those differences in Canada versus here in the States. And I’m grateful for the opportunity to share that information with the YFP community alongside your journey to becoming a debt-free new practitioner. So Sachin, let’s start with your background and work in pharmacy. What drew you to the profession? Where did you go to school? And what type of work are you doing now?

Sachin Duggal: Sure. So you know, initially what drew me to the profession was I was in high school, didn’t really — I knew I wanted to do a career kind of in healthcare — didn’t know exactly which avenue I wanted to go down. And being a relatively healthy kid, I kind of had a little bit of a health scare kind of in my senior year of high school. I had appendicitis, had kind of the first time I was exposed to the medical system to kind of that degree. And then you know, I was thinking in my head, ‘I’m missing all this school, I’ve got to apply to college’ — in Canada, it’s universities, but I guess the U.S. equivalent would be colleges. I’m like, ‘I’ve got to apply to all these universities, I’m missing all this school, I’ve got to kind of recover.’ And being able to interact with different healthcare professionals in that environment, for whatever reason, the pharmacist was kind of the one that I was most drawn to. And I think part of it was just that empathetic listening, just taking the time to kind of understand my concerns, kind of where I was. And then I dug a little bit deeper after I got home into the pharmacy as a profession and how much schooling it would require. And it just seemed like the fit that would work best for me.

Tim Ulbrich: And so that led you to the University of Waterloo. So tell us about when you graduated, when you got licensed, some of the early work that you did in long-term care and then the work that you’re doing now as an academic detailer.

Sachin Duggal: Sure. Sure. So yep, so it led me to the University of Waterloo. In Canada, there’s about 10 pharmacy schools. The University of Waterloo is one of two in the province I’m in, so Ontario is the province. It’s kind of the first co-op pharmacy school in Canada. So what that means is they have designated placements or placements to apply to within kind of the program in between kind of periods of studying. At the pharmacy school I went to, it’s a four-year program. It initially starts as kind of 12 months of pure school, so you don’t really get summers in those four years. It’s 12 months of school and then it’s basically four-month increments of school and then a placement or a job placement. What’s really cool is that job placements are — all the potential jobs are on a portal and they’re in completely different environments.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s cool.

Sachin Duggal: Hospital jobs, government jobs, you’ve got community jobs, outpatient jobs, right? And you apply to them and you interview for them. So it is a little bit competitive with your classmates or cohort, but really great experience and there’s always more jobs than I guess students, so you’re definitely going to be able to find something or find a role that hopefully is right for you. Kind of fast forwarding a little bit, you know, finished school, there’s a little bit of — the way we get licensed in Canada, we do the PBC, so it’s a little bit different than the U.S. But there is a bit of a lag time between when we graduate versus when they offer that exam. It’s about — you have like a four-month lull there. You graduate in August, you don’t write the exams until November. And in this four months, you have the opportunity to travel, work, take a break, whatever you’d like to do. For me, knowing that I was kind of looking all this debt, I was like, hey, I really want to kind of get a head start on this a little bit, so I ended up starting right away and just working, working in the pharmacy, getting that exposure, and it also provides you a little bit of practice for those boards, getting exposed to different medications, counseling, all that kind of stuff.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Sachin Duggal: You know, fast forward, get licensed — you don’t find out you get licensed until around Christmastime, so it’s kind of like the worst Christmas of your life or it could be a great Christmas present. So for me, it ended up working out great. It ended up being a great Christmas present and then in January, I ended up taking a job in long-term care. It was about an hour and a half from where I live. I live in a suburb outside of Toronto with about a million people. It’s interesting, so one of the biggest challenges at least I’ve found in kind of the Canadian marketplace is especially for new grads is it’s almost like getting your first job again when you’re 16 in the sense of everybody wants experience, but how do I get experience, like pharmacist experience, if no one’s going to give me a job? Right? So one of the compromises I made was hey, look, time is kind of the essence in the sense of paying off this debt, and I really want to kind of move on it. And one of those sacrifices I made was location. So I was willing to sacrifice location if the right opportunity kind of arose and I didn’t have to necessarily stay at home and stay within kind of the environment I’m comfortable in. So I moved about an hour and a half outside of kind of where I lived, a city of about 300,000 people, working that long-term care environment. I was kind of in charge of about 14 different nursing homes. I was working in clinical operations, which means I was kind of on the bench or kind of in the pharmacy. It was a closed-door pharmacy, so patients can’t walk in and out. We really just focused on servicing these kind of retirement homes and nursing homes. And I was kind of the pointman or kind of in charge of all the new clinical orders that would come through on a daily basis, probably had anywhere from 200-250 new clinical orders. And the way long-term care is set up is really interesting because you don’t learn a lot about it in school is the pharmacists there completely focus on clinical verifications. And what that means is you look at lab values, you look at the drugs being prescribed, and you look at what patients are on, their histories, and is this medication appropriate or not? And if it’s not, you kind of go through the process of getting things changed or making recommendations that may be a little bit more appropriate. You have a large team. So I had a team of about four licensed technicians that would do a lot of the refill requests and the repeat prescriptions and then a whole kind of army of assistants doing all of the order entering, so I didn’t have to handle the start-to-finish that you may typically see in kind of a retail environment. You know, I did that for about a year and we were getting close to kind of paying off all that kind of student debt and some of the things that I employed while I was kind of out in this community was, I mean, one of the big things was it’s a kind of a student city, so there was a big university there, I guess the U.S. equivalent would be like a college, out there. And I lived in student housing, paying about $500 a month to kind of live there really cheap. And then I also cooked large — basically I didn’t eat out very often at all. So I cooked a lot of meals myself, almost like I’m back in school even though I’m not, right? So I was living that kind of student life of just trying to save every dollar and trying to put as much of that paycheck towards the debt. And I threw about — on a biweekly basis — about 65-70% of that check towards that debt repayment.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Sachin Duggal: So huge — basically, my car was fully paid off, didn’t have any debt from that perspective. I had basically apart from student loans, really didn’t have any other kind of debts to worry about. And I saved about 10%, you know, used about 65-70% on that debt repayment, about 20% was on living expenses like food, gas, rent. And then I took a little bit of a risk in not building that emergency fund necessarily right away, but I did try to pocket away about 5% every check or so towards that emergency fund. And you know, I really didn’t have, like I said, very many kind of expenses.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Sachin Duggal: No mortgage, right? No car payment. So my expenses were really low from that perspective anyways. That was kind of my time. I was there for about a year in that environment and then I was getting really close to paying off this debt and I was thinking, what are kind of the next steps and where do I kind of want to go from here, right? So I ended up taking a pharmacy manager position kind of closer to home, about 10 minutes away from where I was originally from.

Tim Ulbrich: Nice.

Sachin Duggal: Was able to negotiate a really great salary there as well. And then it was a Monday-Friday kind of 9-5 opportunity in a specialty clinic. And then everything was looking great, we had the balls kind of all kind of rolling, and then COVID hit, which kind of stalled that whole operation as a new pharmacy and a new pharmacy practice. When COVID kind of hit and everything just kind of locked down and shut down and you know, a lot of the physicians were working from home and had cross appointments in hospitals and everything was kind of sporadic. We lost a lot of that patient flow within the clinic, and it made it really challenging to keep kind of the pharmacy practice financially viable at the time. So in that instance, myself and kind of the team — it just kind of made sense to just kind of leave that opportunity on the back burner and it may be something we’ll revisit in the future. So now I was kind of stuck in a little bit of a limbo. And you know, I had opportunities. The fortunate thing about going to the university that I went to is those co-op experiences and being able to build that network and having kind of a couple of mentors and a couple of people that can really help guide me in the profession, especially — I’d only been about a year and a half out, right? So I had an opportunity from that point to really take a step back, take a little bit of a break, especially with COVID and seeing how impactful or how dangerous the virus was, right? At that time, we didn’t know a lot. This would have been about April 2020. Took some time and before I kind of jumped into my kind of next role — and that next role was taking a manager position in Toronto at a — basically, it was a pretty underserved community in kind of the northern end of Toronto. Again, another opportunity to be really resourceful and help these patients get access to care and to medications that may be challenging for them to get access to just with kind of some of the experienced I had and just knowing how the healthcare system works within the province. At that time, I saw an opportunity — this was where kind of the academic detailing piece comes in. I saw an opportunity that was posted in one of our — it’s like a Facebook group for our school and for any kind of job opportunities that have come up. And I had a previous preceptor that had done this role. So I reached out to them just to ask them about the role and I was like, this is really cool. I mean, I can’t believe you can kind of make a living basically looking at literature, looking at evidence, providing some of those resources to busy clinicians, so I can kind of explain what an academic detailer is briefly. But basically what we do is it’s a knowledge translation service, typically. So what we’ll do is we’ll pick a disease state. Maybe it’s a disease state that there’s been a lot of kind of evolution or changes, right? So for instance, diabetes.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Sachin Duggal: In the last 5-10 years, there’s been a lot of changes in diabetes and medications that are used to treat the condition. So it’s an opportunity for us to look at the evidence or look at the literature, see which medication if there’s new ones, see where they fit within the whole kind of treatment algorithms, right, from a cost-benefit perspective as well as from a harms and benefits perspective. And then once we kind of as a team with myself and a team of five other pharmacists that kind of come together as well as some other people on the team that kind of gather some of the literature and some of these studies. And we sit there and we sift through the literature and we kind of think about some key points or key highlights physicians will care about, right? Say they’re strapped for time and they really want to know, OK, I’ve got five minutes, tell me what I need to know about this change. We distill those down from mountains and mountains of literature and then we have an opportunity to kind of go out in the field and talk to physicians. And the beauty about it is our academic detailing program is not industry-funded, so there’s no industry bias. It’s funded by the government, so the Ministry of Health. Our healthcare system is a public healthcare system for the most part. The government kind of funds this program knowing that there’s a lot of literature that states from when medications or algorithms change, for them to actually be able to maintain the practice can take anywhere from 10-20 years.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Sachin Duggal: So there’s a big lag between fundamental changes or new breakthrough literature and actually seeing them implemented in practice for patients. That’s kind of the gap we try to fill. And the specific work we do is with family physicians, and we try to tailor every conversation to that specific practice, to their specific patient population, and work with them to see what we can do to help lubricate some of that transition and see what we can do to help them basically practice kind of the best available evidence we have in some of these different disease states.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, what a great use of, you know, a pharmacist skill set, expertise, and education. And I think the role that folks in the U.S. here will connect that to — also very different because you mentioned a publicly-funded healthcare system — would be an MSL position that is industry-funded. I do know a couple of pharmacists that work for the Veterans Affairs, VA, here in the U.S. that do something very similar. One of the things I love about your role, which is similar to what I’ve seen in the VA as well is a component of both practice and academic detailing. So you’re keeping your hand in practice while also providing the expertise in terms of evidence-based cost-effective prescribing. Sachin, at the risk of overgeneralizing an entire country of pharmacists, I suspect our audience is curious, as I was, to hear about some of the similarities and differences with pharmacy education and pharmacy practice in Canada compared to the U.S. And so let’s just start with debt loads. You know, a typical debt load here in the United States for a pharmacy graduate after 6-8+ of education, about $170,000 for the Class of 2021. So generally speaking, what were you seeing among your peers and graduates today when it comes to debt load?

Sachin Duggal: So from a debt load perspective, I believe in Canada, it is a little bit less than the U.S. or could be quite substantially less, depending on the school you go to. So typically on average, you’re probably graduating with anywhere in the ballpark of $100,000-140,000 of debt. Now, it just depends on the city you live in and the school you go to.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Sachin Duggal: So for instance, you live in Toronto and you’re going to pharmacy school in Toronto, cost of living is typically higher there versus where I went to in Waterloo or in the Waterloo and Kitchener kind of area, which is about an hour outside of Toronto. So it kind of depends on the school you go to, but I would say that would be kind of the range as far as the debt load you’re graduating with. Now, there are some opportunities in trying to help manage some of that debt load and there’s resources available to professional students within Canada. So one of them is the provincial loans. So in Ontario, there’s something called OSAP, which is a provincial loan kind of service. It’s also a federal loan service. So they kind of just mash it all together. A portion of it’s federal, portion of it’s provincial.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s interesting. Yeah.

Sachin Duggal: Yeah, so they don’t have separate applications for a federal one and a provincial one. They kind of just lump it all together. Now, that service is great and basically, you know, it’s an application process through the program you’re in, the school you’re in. Based on the program and the school, you go get basically that — and of course your own financial situation with your family and the money you make — they’ll basically spit out a number and be like, every term — a term here is about four months — so every four months, this is the money we’re going to spit out at you or we’ll give you. It could be like $5,000. It could be like $8,000. It could be more. It just depends on your situation. It is a loan, though. So it is money you have to pay back eventually. The beauty of applying to OSAP is even if you don’t need it out here, I would encourage you to apply as kind of being a student just because I think even if you don’t need money, there’s opportunities that open up where you’re able to get grants from the government as well for continuing your postsecondary education. Again, some of these grants, they range in value. It could be $500, it could be $1,000, could be more. It also opens up the opportunity at your own university to apply to bursaries. So bursaries are opportunities to just get, again, free money from your university to help pay for your education. But one of the qualifications typically to apply for those are you’re in need of some sort of financial assistance or you have some sort of OSAP application in progress or in student loans, basically.

Tim Ulbrich: And then in terms of repayment, you know, here — you and I talked a little bit about this — we unfortunately have a very complicated, overly nuanced federal loan repayment system, which includes about nine federal repayment options, we’ve got forgiveness, we have non-forgiveness, there’s of course private options, there’s income-driven repayment plans, there’s fixed plans. So you know, I think while that provides borrowers with a lot of options, as we’ve talked about many times on this show, sometimes that complexity prevents folks from really analyzing those options and determining which of those paths may be best for their personal situation. So when it comes to repayment of those loans, you mentioned both the more federal type and the provincial type, what does that look like? Is it a simplified repayment option in Canada? Or what does that repayment path look like?

Sachin Duggal: From my understanding, it’s a pretty simplified process. So if you’re going down the kind of, the student loan perspective, OK, so you graduate. Let’s just say you have $100,000 of debt. Now a portion of the debt is going to be a — and you can see it all broken down in your, like on the OSAP website in your portal. But you’ll see like, let’s just say $35,000 is federal and the other $65,000 is coming from a provincial student loan. Their interest rates are different. So I would just say the interest rate is anywhere from 5-7%, depending on if it’s a federal portion or the provincial portion. So when it comes to interest, when you’re looking at kind of the student loan that you’ve taken out, once you graduate, the school kind of notifies the student loan office that, hey, they graduated, you can kind of start that kind of clock. And basically, interest starts accruing from the moment that you graduate. However, you don’t need to make any payments on your loan, your student loan, for six months. It’s called like a six-month grace period. It gives you some time to get your kind of feet under you, find a job, figure out your situation and how you’re going to begin to I guess start repaying these student loans.

Tim Ulbrich: And when it comes to the profession, the market, you know, as it stands in Canada, you know, it’s well known here in the U.S. that again, generalizing for the sake of the conversation, but there’s some downward pressure on pharmacists’ salaries. We have supply of pharmacists and new graduates that’s been going up, so that has led to — again, very much depends on the field — but it’s led to an overall flattening, in some cases a reduction and pressure down, on salaries. And so we’ve got this debt load going up, and we’ve got this salary component that’s flat and in some cases decreasing, which obviously presents a financial challenge. So when it comes to the practice of pharmacy in Canada, what types of trends are you seeing that do or don’t align with what we’re seeing here in the U.S.?

Sachin Duggal: Yeah, so a couple trends that I’m seeing, but I think the U.S. and Canada are very similar situations when it comes to kind of pharmacy and the profession currently. One of the main things is currently, in some of the more urban areas, you know, salaries have been driven down pretty substantially from where they were kind of in the mid-2000s. Part of that is just, again, like you mentioned, that supply-demand piece. There’s just a lot of pharmacists out in urban areas, and the demand — the demand is there, but it’s just not quite where you’d want it to be in order to get those salaries a little bit higher. When you venture a little bit outside of kind of some of those urban areas and go to some of the smaller cities and even towns, I mean, the salaries are still very competitive and even in some cases, depending on just where — how far out you’re willing to go — you can really get, you can really have some good leverage in negotiating a good salary. Other trends I’ve kind of seen or something else I’ve kind of noticed — and part of that kind of lends to pharmacists who are willing to be a little bit more flexible and see if they think this lifestyle is right for them is there’s a lot of part-time opportunities. And there’s a lot of opportunities to blend multiple part-time opportunities to get that full-time equivalent. And I think that avenue, although it may not necessarily come with benefits and some of the other things that you may want from a stable kind of career, if salary is kind of a main kind of point for you and you’re like, hey, I’m relatively young, healthy, we have a public healthcare system, if I get sick, I’m taken care of, right, I don’t really need — you know, maybe I go to the dentist a couple times a year just for a cleaning, like everything’s pretty good, right, like I don’t need some of these other benefits, then maybe pursuing an opportunity or multiple part-time opportunities to get that full-time equivalent may lend well to negotiating a good kind of compensation package.

Tim Ulbrich: I think that’s a really interesting thought. And I will say, we do see I think some graduates that are taking that approach, partly out of need — maybe there’s not an offer for full-time — partly out interest, you know, two different opportunities that they want to explore past a little bit further. The challenge we have here, of course, is that healthcare benefit, right, and other benefits. So unfortunately, healthcare and purchasing that independent of an employer is definitely a pressure point. But I think we do see new graduates that are taking that approach, and certainly that can be viable. Sachin, when it comes to your own debt-free journey and some of the work that you’re doing now to really accelerate your financial plan, you mentioned that a typical graduate in Canada might have somewhere between $100,000-140,000. You know, you mentioned earlier that you went down this path of very aggressive debt repayment, you know, upwards of 65-70% of your salary that you’re putting toward your student loans, decreasing your expenses. So what was your debt position, No. 1? And No. 2 is what was really behind that goal of aggressive debt repayment? You know, why did you really want to press that forward, perhaps at the expense of other goals that you had in mind financially?

Sachin Duggal: For me, I think the No. 1 motivator was you’re in school — so I was in I guess from the start of university into graduation from pharmacy school, about a six-year process for me. And you know, the whole time, you’re just getting more and more in debt, right, trying to just live within your means comfortably and know that you kind of have some of that I guess that loan money in case you need it for emergencies and of course paying for your tuition and everything like that. But part of the journey for me was I didn’t like that feeling. I just didn’t like the feeling of being in mountains and mountains of debt that can’t be leveraged, right? Like student debt is not really, you know, it’s not a mortgage on a house, right? It’s not an asset, right? So it’s just kind of this debt that kind of just looms over you, kind of just sitting in the background like, ‘Hey, don’t forget about me. You’ve got to pay me back one day.’ And I just really didn’t like that feeling. And the idea — once I graduated, I went from making very little money in some of those co-op positions to now being able to make a pharmacist’s salary and kind of seeing those paychecks flow in, it really got me thinking, OK, this is a lot more money than I’ve kind of ever seen in my life up to this point. Like I need to make sure I set myself up so that I don’t ever have to feel like I’m in a position where I need this paycheck or anything like that. So that idea of freedom and working towards that was the kind Goal No. 1 for me in my life, right? So I looked at that debt and I went, OK, this is not serving me in any way, right? How can I aggressively pay this off? And one of the big strategies I used once I kind of fundamentally made that decision and one thing I recommend to some of my friends when they’re at a fork in the road, right, and they’re kind of like — for me, it was do I pay this debt off very aggressively or do I pay it off a comfortably kind of over x amount of years and save up for other things? And for me, I just kind of sat in a coffee shop and kind of, you know, I was like, OK, I’ve got a little piece of paper, I’ve got one side of this fork and I’ve got the other side of the fork, and I literally went through the pros and cons of each, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Sachin Duggal: And for me, it just stuck out that freedom piece on being debt-free, really having very little expenses, being able to kind of do whatever I wanted — if I wanted to go on a little bit of a vacation, right, I could. I didn’t have to worry about that paycheck-to-paycheck situation. And that really just stuck out to me. And at that moment, I was kind of committed to paying it off. And from that moment, I kind of looked at all the resources available to me and one of the big resources was leveraging my professional student line of credit. So I haven’t mentioned kind of here yet, but in Canada when you’re in professional school — or specifically at least I can speak for Ontario — when you’re in a professional program like dentistry, medicine, pharmacy are kind of the main examples, banks are willing to kind of offer you a line of credit that’s given to you in increments based on your successful completion of studies like —

Tim Ulbrich: Interesting.

Sachin Duggal: Basically, they’ll give you $30,000 per year. Once you’ve proven that you’ve completed Year 1, you haven’t failed, you haven’t flunked out, they’ll unlock the next $30,000. Once you complete Year 2, just shows proof you’re moving onto Year 3. The proof is really simple. It’s just kind of your schedule that you’re in third-year classes. And they’ll unlock another $30,000. So pharmacy school specifically, the major banks, they may have their own kind of rates on what they offer, but the one that I went with offered about $120,000 over the four years, unlocked in $30,000 increments with an interest rate of prime. So for us in Canada, the prime interest rate time I think was — it was around 2.2% or 2.25%.

Tim Ulbrich: Nice.

Sachin Duggal: Much lower than student loans.

Tim Ulbrich: Student loans, yep.

Sachin Duggal: Yeah, so an opportunity right there that I saw was OK, look, student loans, I’m not getting any more student loans. It’s just going to sit there. It’s going to have a much, much higher interest rate. You know, once I graduated, I really started dipping in that line of credit and just thought, let me just pay off these student loans with my line of credit. Much lower interest rate, right, in paying off the line of credit with the bank as well as you get to build your credit score as well. You’ve got a big loan here, you’re paying it back. With the student loans, you may not necessarily be able to build I guess as good will with the bank and kind of show, hey, I can pay off a large amount of debt in a reasonable amount of time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. That’s really interesting. I’m not aware, Sachin, of anything we have like that here in the U.S. Maybe I’ll stand corrected if a borrower lets me know something or perhaps there’s a unique situation here or there, but makes sense, right? I mean, most of our federal loans, you know, rough numbers, looking about 6%, many for pharmacy school outside of this time with the CARES Act and the pandemic and the administrative forbearance is unsubsidized. So makes a whole lot of sense in that strategy. Is that a widely-known strategy? Or is that something that you were able to crack the code on, you know, in terms of when you had that day at the coffee shop and not as many folks know about that?

Sachin Duggal: I would say like a handful of people in the school definitely know about it, at least when I was going through pharmacy school. So this would have been 2015, around that time. I think the program, at least from what I’ve seen in recent years, has been a lot more aggressive with different banks in the sense that everyone’s trying to I guess capture the professional students and providing that kind of service or kind of that option, right? At the time, there was really only one or two banks that understood the pharmacist, the potential salary, right, the safety of that kind of — giving up that kind of money to a professional student, right? I think now, there’s a little bit more of an acceptance with some of the other banks after some of the success of those that kind of pioneered or started it.

Tim Ulbrich: It makes sense, you know. Here, the banks are very much, for good reason, interested in health professionals but long-term relationships, right? Purchasing a home, eventually you might have a business, a line of credit, perhaps you do investments, you know, which wouldn’t necessarily be our choice, but that’s an option of where folks may go to do other things related to the financial plan as well, so they’re very much looking at that from a long-term relationship with an individual who has a good — in theory, a good financial trajectory that’s ahead of them. Sachin, were there specific resources, books, podcasts, blogs, you know, things that were really helpful and motivating to you in your own personal journey?

Sachin Duggal: For sure. So one, of course, was the YFP podcast. I discovered it close to when I graduated. I think it was around probably January of — like around when I got fully licensed. And I was staring at these biweekly paychecks like oh my goodness. Like I need to save this or invest this or pay off — I need to figure out what I’m doing with this stuff instead of having it just sit in my bank account, right, and not working for me. So YFP podcast was huge at the time. And you know, it’s still a great resource and I still listen to it and see what kind of episodes and I love the evolution and the trajectory you guys have taken. Some of the books that were really impactful for me, No. 1 — and it’s a common book I think that you’ve talked about was “I Will Teach You to Be Rich” by Ramit Sethi. That’s a huge book in the sense of there’s one thing that always sticks out to me, and I’m going to butcher kind of the quote, but he basically says, you know, cut back frivolously on the things you don’t care about and spend kind of extravagantly on the things you do care about, right, or you do want. For instance —

Tim Ulbrich: The money dials. Yep. I love that.

Sachin Duggal: Yeah, yeah. So it’s, for instance, like I’ve got the same laptop I’ve had — the personal laptop that I’ve had since 2012. Don’t really care about upgrading it, right? It’s been a decade, but it still works fine. But if I want to go out and eat and have a good dinner, I don’t want to feel guilty about that. I think setting those money dials and setting that up for yourself and being comfortable with that is huge. Another really good book was just “The Psychology of Money.” It’s by Morgan — I think it’s Morgan Housel.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep. Right.

Sachin Duggal: It’s basically a book about just our relationship with money, and this goes back to what I was talking about with — you know, as a student without very much money going to a pharmacist, right, with some money and how that relationship should evolve and should mature and should change and as you get older and get some responsibilities as well in your life. I thought that book was really great. And the last one for my Canadian listeners I have to mention is a really interesting book. It’s specifically on Canadian finances. It’s called “Beat the Bank.” Yeah, it’s called “Beat the Bank” by Larry Gates.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Sachin Duggal: It’s a great book on — so he’s a — basically, our equivalent of Wall Street is kind of Bay Street in Toronto. Let’s just call it Wall Street, right, for all intents and purposes. But basically, he was a big hotshot banker for one of the big banks out in Toronto. And he just saw how some of the bank would leverage the average Canadian and he saw an opportunity there to kind of write a book about some of the things Canadians should kind of look at and be cognizant of when you’re kind of working on that financial freedom journey or saving and investing. And he kind of breaks it down to a really easily digestible book on the different avenues of investing and what row advisors are and all those fundamentals. So I think it’s a really great fundamental book if you’re just getting started with investing.

Tim Ulbrich: Appreciate the recommendations. We’ll link to all three of those in the show notes, “The Psychology of Money,” “I Will Teach You to Be Rich,” and then “Beat the Bank.” I’m going to have to bring myself up to speed one, because I’m really curious, two, one of my boys wants to move to Canada. So I feel like I’ve got some homework to do to be able to help him in the future. Great stuff. You know, one of the last questions I wanted to ask you is we don’t talk enough, I don’t think, you know, as we do stories like yours where we share a debt-free journey, we don’t talk enough about that life after debt-free. And one of the things I felt in my own journey is that, you know, I had always the debt being paid off as somewhat of a finish line in my mind. But it very much is just a starting point. And you know, once you get to that position, then it’s like, alright, what’s next? What are the goals? What are the plans? So as you went through this very aggressive debt repayment, putting away 65-70% of your salary towards the debt, here you are, obviously in a good financial position with a strong foundation going forward, if you look ahead over the next 3-5 years, what’s happening? What’s the priority? What’s the goals now that you’ve got this debt behind you?

Sachin Duggal: It kind of goes back to that little fork in the road, right? I’ve been really trying to has out kind of the next steps and where I want to go. And one of the big pieces is owning a piece of real estate. It’s just been really challenging with where the market’s at right now and kind of seeing how that evolves and where that goes. But for me right now, it’s kind of staying the course and continuing to invest. So a lot of my money now goes into investments. You know, I’ve maxed out kind of our equivalent of kind of that Roth IRA and 401k as well. So our equivalents are kind of maxed out. It’s really just kind of seeing where the opportunities are. I think especially with the pandemic, it’s almost like — I’ve kind of never seen such a bounceback in the economics so quickly after I guess something that would be considered kind of a recession, right? When you look at kind of where the stock market was initially when the pandemic hit and where it is now, it’s crazy. It’s only been a year and a half. So I think right now, it’s just investing, looking for an opportunity to invest in real estate that makes sense. And then kind of going from there, I think the most important thing is just not letting your money or that paycheck kind of sit in your bank account and kind of die or lose to inflation. Have that money working for you in some sort of avenue.

Tim Ulbrich: And that’s what I love about the intentionality of what you shared. And I’ve heard among others as well is, you know, if we think about the debt-free journey for some just being the starting point, you’ve got years and repetitions of behaviors now, right? So you’re obviously not forever going to be living on the low expenses that you did. But you’ve done that hard work, you’ve got the mindset. And now it’s about OK, how do I be more opportunistic in terms of growing wealth, taking those next steps with investing in real estate and other goals that you’re going to have in the future. Greatly appreciate, Sachin, you coming on the show. Loved this conversation, learning more about what some of our pharmacy colleagues in Canada are facing and some of the opportunities. And I’m hopeful that not only your peers in Canada will find this helpful but also the YFP community and pharmacists that are practicing here in the U.S. So again, thank you for your time and for coming on the show.

Sachin Duggal: Thanks for having me, Tim. I really appreciate being on and looking forward to more great episodes.

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YFP 223: How First-Time Home Buyers Navigated the Current Housing Market

Posted on September 30, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How First-Time Home Buyers Navigated the Current Housing Market

On this episode, sponsored by APhA, Jacob and Michaela Soppe discuss their home buying journey in the current real estate market.

About Today’s Guests

Jacob and Michaela are graduates of Ohio Northern University who moved to eastern Ohio in 2018 so that Jacob could pursue his dream of starting a pharmacy with Southeast Healthcare. Since then, he has successfully grown his pharmacy and offers clinical services including diabetes and hepatitis C clinics. Michaela works at East Ohio Regional Hospital where she collaborates with doctors and patients in the inpatient, outpatient, and long-term care settings. In their spare time, they love to stay active and travel the world. They recently bought their first home and are excited to continue to serve God and their patients in their community.

Summary

In this episode, Tim Ulbrich turns the microphone over to Nate Hedrick, The Real Estate RPh and co-host of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, as he interviews two pharmacists, Michaela and Jacob Soppe, about their home buying journey. Michaela and Jacob share their experience working with YFP’s Real Estate Concierge, their home search, how they determined their home buying budget, and the realities of buying a home in the current real estate market.

Jacob and Michaela weren’t necessarily looking for a home after pharmacy school and focused their energy and funds on paying down student loans and investing. When they were ready to start the home buying process, they didn’t know what to do or how to start, so they contacted Nate Hedrick and started working with the Real Estate Concierge Service. Nate paired the couple with a real estate agent in their area who worked with them diligently until they found a home that met their budget requirements and exceeded their expectations on must-have items like room for a family and plentiful parking.

The couple shares their experience receiving regular emails with listings and changes to the housing market, a day with nine house viewings, their experience with their home inspection, and how their experience at closing differs from what many folks will see in the current market.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Nate Hedrick: Hey, Michaela, Jacob, welcome to the show.

Jacob Soppe: Thanks for having us.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, thank you for having us.

Nate Hedrick: Absolutely. Excited to chat today. We are talking all things real estate. I’m taking over the Tim and Tim show here on the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast so we can talk a little bit more about real estate today. So again, appreciate you guys joining us.

Michaela Soppe: Absolutely.

Nate Hedrick: So we are here to talk a little bit about navigating the current housing market, right? So you guys are first-time home buyers, just closed about two months ago on your first house, and what we thought we would do is kind of sit down and talk a little bit about that, talk about what it’s like to buy a house in the current market, what it’s like to be a first-time home buyer, how you guys navigated that, and just kind of get that information in front of people. So before we dive too deeply into the real estate side of things, maybe give us a little bit of background on your pharmacy journey so far and kind of what you guys are up to.

Jacob Soppe: I graduated in 2018, and I immediately got a job on rotations. I met with one of my preceptors and they wanted to open a pharmacy, and they wanted me to open it for them, and that’s something I’m interested in, and so I opened it. That was three years ago. And we’re continuing to grow, and I’m very happy with it. We’re a clinic pharmacy, but we also do long-term care, we also do diabetes clinics, and we’re just starting up Hepatitis C clinics.

Nate Hedrick: That’s great.

Michaela Soppe: So I graduated in 2019. We both graduated from Ohio Northern. And we actually got married while I was on rotations, so he’d basically said, “Hey, how do you feel about moving an hour and a half away from Columbus?” I’m like, “OK, that’s great. But I have rotations in Columbus.” So I started working with Rite Aid after I graduated as a pharmacist and kind of floated all over the place because we didn’t really know where we’d be living for sure. And then worked with them for a couple years and at the end of that, in January, I got a job working at a local hospital. So I do mostly inpatient, but I also have a mix of some outpatient stuff and long-term care in there with that as well. So I’m kind of running all over the place. But I love it.

Nate Hedrick: That’s great.

Michaela Soppe: And we finally made it out closer to where Jacob works. So.

Nate Hedrick: That’s nice, especially when, you know, you’ve already got long days at the hospital or at the pharmacy, you don’t want to add an extra long commute to that. So that’s great.

Michaela Soppe: Exactly.

Nate Hedrick: And when you guys graduated from pharmacy school, I know it was different years, but when you graduated, was buying a house kind of always in that mix? Was it always part of the “next step?” Or was this something that came along later?

Jacob Soppe: We knew we wanted to buy a house eventually, but there was student loans in the way that kept me up at night.

Nate Hedrick: Sure.

Jacob Soppe: And I was like, I can’t buy a house until I pay off these, we pay off these loans. And so after about two years, we paid off the loans and that’s when we started looking for a home.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, it was definitely student loans first and then, you know, it all worked out around the same time where my job brought us instead of an hour and a half away for Jacob, it’s now five minutes away. And at that point, we were like, OK, like we’re ready to find a house because we’re going to be out here for a while.

Nate Hedrick: Wow, yeah. So I know I’ve talked to others who have that feeling of like, man, I cannot buy until these are gone. And so you guys took that and said, yeah, let’s make sure that’s the case. Let’s go all in on the loans and then once that’s done, then we’ll go ahead and buy a house. Do you feel like that was crippling at all? Was it just like, this is what we have to do to get it done?

Jacob Soppe: It was definitely the second one there. We just felt like we had to do it and felt like it was the right way to go for us.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, it was kind of like, let’s still act like we’re college kids for a couple years, you know, not buy a bunch of brand new stuff. Like most of our stuff came from our families or stuff I had from college. And so until the loans were gone, we didn’t really spend much money on anything else. Like we’d go traveling, but other than that, it was just loans completely. Like our entire paychecks went to it, basically.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, avoiding that lifestyle creep can be a really great way to get ahead and make sure that those loans could be knocked out first. So that’s awesome. Were there any other factors that were holding you guys back? I mean, was the market something that scared you? Or talk to me a little about that too. Was it just the student loans and once those were gone, you were ready to move?

Jacob Soppe: The other thing that was holding us back was, like I said earlier, I was driving an hour and a half one way to work each day, so a total of three hours when we started and Michaela was still in school. We wanted to see where she was going to end up working and then when she ended up moving closer to my work, it worked out because it was like just after we paid off our loans. So we didn’t end up looking for a house at our old employer where I was still driving 45 minutes, and I really liked the idea of living like right next to work and the gym and church — and we’ll get into that later.

Michaela Soppe: I guess something I should say is that we moved four times in three years.

Jacob Soppe: Yeah.

Michaela Soppe: And progressively each time, every time my position changed, basically, going from rotation student to floater at Rite Aid to actually having a store at Rite Aid to getting the job at the hospital. Basically every single time, we moved closer and closer to where Jacob was working. And now, it definitely just where are we going to be settled was kind of like a factor that was holding us back slightly too because like my goal was always to get a job closer to where Jacob was working but just we didn’t know when that would happen. And it ended up being at a really convenient time for us.

Nate Hedrick: That’s great. And that actually, that’s a good segue because one of the things I want to talk about today is choosing the location and some of the steps that go into that kind of getting ready phase of buying a home. And that’s actually Step No. 1 of six steps that we’re going to talk about today. So we put together a video series — and actually, there’s a guide out there, we can link to that in the show notes. But if you head on over to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, we have the “Six Steps to Home Buying.” And what I’d like to do is actually walk through each one of those steps and kind of get your take and your experience as first-time home buyers and see what information we can share with our audience. There’s a lot of people that are probably in your shoes or who are about to be in those shoes here pretty soon where they’re graduating, they’ve got a lot of student loan debt, or they’re ready to buy a home, and now it’s time to figure out, OK, what does that actually look like? And more importantly, how do I do that in this kind of market? Because it is quite the seller’s market. It’s very competitive out there. And so trying to get a home today is more difficult than it’s been before. So we’ll start with the first step, which is making sure you’re ready. A lot of this step includes things like choosing a location, determining what is important to you guys, and also setting a budget and not letting the bank set the budget necessarily, not just going out and asking for the biggest loan we can get but setting our own budget. And so when you guys sat down and said, “OK, we need to figure out if we’re ready,” what did that look like? Was it a formal process for you or was this like, I don’t know, I’ve been on Zillow, let’s go take a look. You know, what was that like for you guys?

Michaele Soppe: There was definitely a lot of Zillow involved. So before we made our final move here closer to work, the apartment we were at, we were initially looking for houses there because it seemed like a good, you know, central location at the time when I was with Rite Aid still. So I think Jacob was on Zillow every single day, just you know, browsing houses for probably half a year or so at least and then continuing once we did move a little bit closer into another apartment, like OK, now we’re getting serious. What are we looking at? It wasn’t like a formal, let’s sit down and talk about this. It was just something we talked about almost every day probably for months just casually like, OK, you know, what do we want out of this? And everything kind of grew from there.

Nate Hedrick: And did you sit down and figure out, again, like not a formalized but at least like a budget for what you wanted to spend? And how did you go about doing that?

Jacob Soppe: One thing that we talked about even before we got married, we decided together that we both definitely wanted to live way below our means, less than 50% of our income, just because that’s what made us feel safe. Just in case one of us lost our jobs.

Nate Hedrick: Sure.

Jacob Soppe: It’s getting harder to find a job, especially with the growing concern of the pharmacist job market. Then also we want to have a family. We’re big givers as well. And so it just takes a lot of that stress off having a big cushion to make all those fit potentially with Michaela either decreasing work hours or going to 0 in the pharmacy in the future.

Nate Hedrick: Sure.

Jacob Soppe: But as far as budget goes, we decided that we wanted to really find a house for $200,000 or less. And I know like especially in Columbus, Ohio, where we’re from, that is very difficult to do in a nice place for a nice home.

Nate Hedrick: Sure.

Jacob Soppe: But the nice thing about where we moved is that the rural Ohio is much lower cost of living, and we were able to meet that goal of finding a home in that budget.

Michaela Soppe: Yes.

Jacob Soppe: Actually, way under budget.

Michaela Soppe: When we started looking at homes, there were a lot of homes we found that we liked that were more like $250,000-300,000. So like I’d say our upper limit kind of became $300,000 with the understanding of we’d much rather not spend $300,000 on the house. So we actually did find a couple that we liked, which we didn’t get a chance to put an offer in on. I mean, the market out here isn’t quite as crazy as it is in Columbus, but stuff still sells fairly quickly. So it ended up being a good thing because our realtor could kind of point us towards the house that we’re in now, which was like half of that but way big enough for both of us and even for a growing family. And yeah, so that — like we had that budget in mind the whole time. And it did shift a little bit as we were looking, but then it all ended up going back to what we were originally thinking.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I love that. And I think there’s two things that I think are really, really important. One is intentionality, right? You guys stepped back and said like, ‘This is important to us to live slightly below the typical means,’ right? Or ‘We can live at 50% of our income. And here’s why we’re doing that,’ right? The intention behind that is that if we want to cut back on hours, we lose a job, we’re not stressing about this home purchase. And I love that. I think that’s super important. The other thing that you said that I think is interesting because I advise my clients of this all the time is that it’s super easy to fall in love up to whatever amount, right? If I start looking at $500,000 homes, I’m going to love $500,000 homes. The trick is not to exceed that budget if it’s reasonable for your market. And so you guys took a step back and said, “Yeah, you know what? It’s possible to find a nice place under this $200,000 in our market.” And again, I know the West Coasters out there are probably like screaming at their radios right now. But the idea is that, you know, you guys took a look at your market and said, “This is feasible, and so I’m not going to push it beyond my means because I’ve set this budget, and this is realistic for where I’m looking. I think that’s a really great way to set yourselves up for success. So I admire that a lot. The other thing you mentioned is that you leveraged your realtor, and that actually leads us to Step No. 2 or point No. 2 here, which is assembling a team. And this is actually where you and I got connected back in May of this past year. And you know, you guys came to us, the Real Estate Concierge service, which is a service that we offer to pretty much anyone that if you want to get connected with a real estate agent, we will actually help you do that. And so again, if you head on over to YourFinancialPharmacist.com and head over to “Buy a Home,” you can check out the Real Estate Concierge service there, a free way to get connected with an awesome local agent. And again, that’s actually how Jacob and Michaela and I got connected. We got you connected with Sean, and I guess tell us a little bit about that process and what it was like to work with an agent.

Jacob Soppe: Yeah, I want to thank you guys, thank you again for finding Sean, our realtor.

Nate Hedrick: Sure.

Jacob Soppe: We had no clue on like what realtor, who should we go to, and we heard about your service through YFP, and so we reached out to you, you found us a great realtor. Sean has over 10 years of experience as a realtor, he’s also a broker. And he was amazing, mainly because one, he was super responsive, two, he found us homes, including the one we ended up buying, that we would like. And we didn’t think we would like this home, so we didn’t put it on our list of liked homes and must-see homes. But he’s like, “I think you guys will like it anyway. Let’s go.” And we looked at like, I don’t know how many homes.

Michaela Soppe: Well, the one day, I think it was a Saturday, we did nine homes on that Saturday. And he had it all set up like perfectly. And then honestly, the whole process only took a week or two for us. He was just on top of it. And you know, ultimately, we looked at 14 or 15, and this was one of the last ones. And we basically knew going into it like, this is something that we’re definitely open to buying because it was a great price, like great location, can’t really get any better. And I’m just really glad that Sean figured out what we liked so easily and you know, pointed us to this house because it wasn’t really on our radar initially.

Jacob Soppe: And one other thing I want to give him praise for too is every house we went to, he pointed out anything that he thought was a potential problem. And so like he was super honest, he wasn’t in a rush to sell us a home.

Michaela Soppe: Yes.

Jacob Soppe: And so I really trusted him and I think that you’ve really found a great realtor.

Nate Hedrick: Good, I’m so glad. That’s awesome. And that’s exactly what we want to hear, right? I mean, the agents you work with, it has to be somebody you can trust. And it’s so funny, that’s exactly what I try to do for my clients is point out the scary, right? My job is to walk around and look for things that you don’t recognize as bad while you just figure out if you’re going to like the house. That’s awesome that Sean was able to do that for you guys. Were there other members of the team along the way that were important as well? I know obviously the real estate agent is big, but were there other players that jumped in here as well that you found a lot of value in?

Jacob Soppe: Not really.

Michaela Soppe: Honestly, it all happened very fast.

Jacob Soppe: We weren’t even really seriously looking for a home.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, this was just to get our feet wet.

Jacob Soppe: We were actually in the middle of a lease.

Nate Hedrick: Ok.

Jacob Soppe: We were just like looking at homes, we’re like, ‘Oh, well, it takes about a month or two to start closing on a home, so maybe we should just start looking at homes for a couple months and then –’

Michaela Soppe: See what’s out there.

Jacob Soppe: See what’s out there. And so we started looking at homes and we found one that we really liked, and we’re like, ‘We kind of want to put in an offer. But I still have like six months left on my lease.’ And so I was just like, you know what? Let me call up the landlord tomorrow and see if they’d be OK if we put an offer on a home and moved out early. And we talked to them and we ended up having an agreement, and we were able to leave early. And so we’re like, ‘Oh, great.’ Well, the home that we really liked, apparently some other people really liked it too. So it was already gone by the next day. But that really opened the door for us to seriously look.

Nate Hedrick: That’s great.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, and I guess that’s something else I’d say is don’t be afraid to break your lease because we lived in three apartments before buying this house, and we broke our lease every time, which obviously —

Jacob Soppe: But it was with the —

Michaela Soppe: With their permission. Like obviously, it’s not ideal. But like, I mean, definitely talk it through with them and see what you can do if you’re ready to buy a house. That shouldn’t be something holding you back because usually, they will work with you and figure out a deal that way.

Nate Hedrick: It’s a great tip, and it’s something that I’ve done with tenants of mine. You know, if I can fill that vacancy quickly, it doesn’t bother me who’s in that house as long as they’re a great tenant. So that makes a lot of sense. That’s a good tip. That also leads me to you talked about putting in an offer and looking for a house, but what about the paying for it, right? So there’s dollars there, so talk to me a little bit about financing and did you guys have an idea of how you wanted to finance the home ahead of time? Or what did that look like?

Jacob Soppe: I mean, I’m really adverse to debt. I really don’t like debt. And Michaela really let me spearhead this. And so we went in — I don’t know, I was like, “You know what, I want to do” — how much down was it? I don’t remember anymore.

Nate Hedrick: 15% down?

Jacob Soppe: Not 15%, 20%.

Michaela Soppe: He would have rather paid cash, but reasonably, he wanted to do 20% down.

Jacob Soppe: Yeah, 20% down at 15-year fixed mortgage. But I kept, you know, I listen to YFP, I listen to a lot of other podcasts as well. And I looked at the offer that IBERIABANK has that you guys work with. And I felt like I really couldn’t pass up taking advantage of the low interest rates going on right now. And I was thinking to myself, ‘Well, if I’m going to pay it off early, I can still do that.’ We didn’t necessarily need to do a lower amount, but we ended up doing 5% down on a 30-year fixed. And we do a lot of investing as well, so we are putting every single dollar that we’re not spending on a mortgage into investments.

Nate Hedrick: I love that.

Michaela Soppe: So like when you have a 3% mortgage with IBERIABANK, we’re like, well, we can make more investing that money, you know, in the meantime than we would if we just kind of threw it at the house.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah.

Michaela Soppe: So that kind of changed his mind over a month or two.

Nate Hedrick: I definitely get that debt aversion, but it also makes a lot of sense if you break down the numbers, does it preserve your capital in a way that allows you to do other things, like you said, travel more, invest better, pay down student debt if you hadn’t already done that? Those are the things that that flexibility can allow. So I love that you guys took a look at that and even though you went in with one notion, you evaluated your options and made kind of the best financial move for you guys. That’s huge. And for those that want to learn more about that, definitely head over to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, and again, head over to the Financing section of the “Buy a Home” section, and you can find out more information about IBERIABANK and some of the pharmacist loan options that are out there. Great way to get a low down payment loan without having to get hit with PMI or things like that. So definitely a good option. So then Step No. 4 would be the search, so actually looking for the property itself. And we’ve alluded to this a little bit, but talk to us about that process. What were things that you guys were looking for? Or what were things that you learned after seeing a couple of houses or on that nine-house day, what were things that you learned along that process?

Michaela Soppe: We learned that house hunting is tiring on that nine-house day.

Nate Hedrick: I imagine.

Michaela Soppe: It was a lot of Zillow, a lot of probably other online websites too for houses. And honestly, Jacob looked at most of that because I got a little overwhelmed with all the options.

Nate Hedrick: Sure.

Michaela Soppe: But something we really wanted, which actually kind of excluded this house initially was we wanted a two-car garage was one of our main things because we’ve kind of done it all. We’ve done garage, no garage, all of that. So this house we ended up buying only has a one-car garage, but it has tons of parking, like a carport. You can have everyone over, and they don’t need to park in the street.

Nate Hedrick: Nice.

Michaela Soppe: So that’s kind of why we initially didn’t look at this house. And Sean was like, ‘Well, let’s go look at it.’ So we started out with Zillow. Once we got hooked up with Sean, he created basically an account for us on — was it MLS? On MLS, and basically every day, he would push emails to us of like, here’s any changes in the housing near you, like new houses, price drops, houses going under contract, coming back on the market, being sold. That was super helpful. You know, he’d send it to us after work each day so that he wasn’t interrupting our day and we could look at it, like them, communicate with him what we wanted to see, what we weren’t interested in, stuff like that. And then from there, he would call Jacob up and be like, “Hey, I have a list of these houses. Let’s go see them tomorrow if you’re free or whatever the next day you were free was.” And I mean, really, he just kind of led the way and was like, here’s houses you liked, here’s houses I think you would like, and kind of all over our price range too. We saw stuff under our budget, over our — not over our budget, but on the higher end of our budget — and kind of just pieced together from there what we really wanted and what was important to us.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, and sometimes just getting out there and seeing it in person can make all the difference. You know, you might think there’s one thing that’s super important or not realize something that is important to you until you get out and see a house that has that particular feature and recognize that. So that’s great. And I also love the tip about the auto-emails. That’s something I recommend for a lot of my clients is get that auto-email so that you are getting daily alerts. It helps us really learn that market so that you can move quickly. If you’re just looking at everything on Friday afternoon and then scrambling to try to react to the properties that have come up in the week, it’s going to be tricky. But if you can get that daily, just take 20 or 30 minutes out of your day to really learn that market, see what properties are coming available, you’ll have a lot more chance at the good properties, and you’ll know what the right price point is because you’re starting to learn that market and see what’s becoming available. So great tips. And then once you actually found the property, again, I know we’ve talked a little bit about this, but talk to me about that negotiation process because Step No. 5 is all about putting that deal together. And so I know negotiations are hard in the current market, there’s not a lot of wiggle room, but what did that look like? What was the putting together the offer process look like?

Michaela Soppe: So Sean was really great with this too because the house that we really liked, ended up buying that we’re living in now, we actually were able to get for asking price.

Nate Hedrick: Nice.

Michaela Soppe: So out here in Eastern rural Ohio, it’s a little different than Columbus, obviously. We knew when we were here he was in contact with the seller’s realtor, and she told him like, “Hey, there’s another offer on the table today. Do they want it or not?” So basically, we were sitting in his house at 8 p.m. like kind of putting together our offer. We knew that this is a house that we would really like, that it could be the house that we’re buying, you know? And we’re like, ‘Well, let’s offer them asking price.’ They’d already dropped the price $5,000 I think. This particular house was on the market for —

Jacob Soppe: Over 30 days.

Michaela Soppe: It was. Some houses go within a week out here, some of them are on the market for months, depending on the houses. You know, there’s not that many people in rural Ohio. But you know, so completely different from the big cities. So basically, we did asking price but we also really wanted this house, so we added an escalation clause just in case, which went I think like $8,000 over maybe.

Nate Hedrick: And could you enlighten our audience about what an escalation clause actually means?

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, so basically if you have an escalation clause on your offer, it means that you’re willing to go up so much more money if the other person bid higher than your or offered higher than you on the house. So like if you’re offering $200,000, the other person offered $205,000, but if you have an escalation clause going up to $210,000, they could take your $210,000 — or I guess $206,000 at that point. You know, something slightly higher than what the other person offered if your clause goes above that.

Nate Hedrick: Yep, that’s spot on. And it’s a great way to protect you from pitting you against yourself, right? Because then you can put in $200,000 and you pay $200,000 if that’s the final price. But if there are other offers, you can still protect yourself by getting higher than — just slightly higher than those next offers. So thank you.
Michaela Soppe: So hopefully it keeps you out of a bidding war.

Nate Hedrick: Exactly.

Michaela Soppe: So yeah, I mean, putting the offer in, I think the deadline was given to us by the seller’s realtor was like 9 p.m. or something. And he faxed over all the papers by 8:55 p.m. and called like, “They’re on their way,” you know?

Nate Hedrick: Nice.

Michaela Soppe: Basically, we knew an hour after that they were —

Jacob Soppe: They verbally accepted our offer.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, they verbally accepted an hour after that.

Nate Hedrick: Great. Yeah.

Michaela Soppe: It was a very fast process, I feel like, and probably a little less stressful than it is in the big cities for us. But at least putting the offer down was really simple.

Nate Hedrick: Still, yeah, it sounded like crunch time decisions, though, and faxing it then at 0 hours.

Michaela Soppe: It happened really fast.

Nate Hedrick: That’s great. And did you have inspection contingencies on the home as well? I know some people are out there waiving inspection contingencies. What did that look like?

Michaela Soppe: We did have an inspection. I guess something I should mention is we also offered to cover closing costs. I know that’s a big deal-maker or -breaker anymore. But we did have an inspection, and Jacob can talk more about that process.

Jacob Soppe: OK. So

Michaela Soppe: I set it up.

Jacob Soppe: Yeah, so I scheduled an inspection with one of the six recommended inspectors that our realtor gave us contact info for. And so I did some price shopping with them and got to know the guys who did it. And I picked one,s scheduled a time before our closing date, and they came in and they agreed to meet them at the house while they did the inspection and kind of showed me what they were looking at. And then they gave me a full report, photos, and descriptions of the inspection about two days later. So it’s like 80 pages. And we got to look through them, and they highlighted the things that they thought were a big concern and that what we should look at before closing. So what that led to is that we talked — we showed our realtor that report too, and most of the things we’re like, ‘Ah, don’t worry about it. We’ll just fix those problems.’ And our realtor was like, ‘No, no, no, no. The sellers are going to fix those for you. And so we’re going to use this contingency and try to barter for to see what we can get them to fix before we close.’ And we went back and forth probably like four times with the sellers.

Michaela Soppe: That sounds about right.

Jacob Soppe: And our realtor ended up saving us like $5,000 in repairs.

Michaela Soppe: And just like little — some of the stuff was bigger, but some was just little stuff that we’re literally like, it’s fine, you know. And some of the bigger stuff the sellers were like, ‘Well, we’ll split it 50/50 with you guys,’ and Jacob and I are like, ‘OK, that’s fine.’ Sean was like, ‘No. You’re not paying for it.’

Nate Hedrick: I love it.

Michaela Soppe: He’s like, ‘You guys offered asking price. They’re going to pay for it.’ And we’re like, ‘OK, sure, we’ll see what happens.’ And like Jacob said, I mean, they basically agreed to everything except tightening a railing outside. Like literally $5,000 worth of stuff, they got done for us before we closed. Can’t thank Sean enough for that.

Nate Hedrick: That’s great.

Michaela Soppe: Because we had no idea. We’re like, ‘Oh, this is fine. They’re never going to agree to that.’ But they did.

Nate Hedrick: And that’s exactly why you have a good real estate agent to lean on, right? Because again, without that experience, without that know-how, you would have lost out. So that’s a big, important point. The other thing I think is great there is that you guys went into it with this idea of I’m going to offer full asking, and so because of that, like there’s a renegotiation process that may occur. And so there’s two — I think a lot of people assume as soon as you put that offer in, that’s it, you’re done, that’s what you’re buying the house for. But the reality is you get to go back to them, and there’s renegotiations that can occur if you have the right contingencies in place. And again, lean on your agent for that. But that’s a really important factor to making sure you’re getting a good deal. So that’s awesome. Well, that leads to our last step, which is Step No. 6, all about closing. So you’ve gone through, found a house, put the offer in, renegotiated on the fixes and everything, and now you’re ready to actually sign the paperwork. So talk to us a little bit about the closing process. Anything that surprised you or things that you learned during that?

Michaela Soppe: I’d say it was pretty straightforward for us. I mean, basically with all of the negotiations that happened ahead of time, we knew exactly what we were getting, exactly what to expect. We did come walk through the house before we closed, I think the morning that we closed.

Jacob Soppe: The same morning that we closed.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, just to make sure everything was done, everything was what they said they would do. From there, everything was good. You know, Sean was there at closing with us for the first part. And then once you actually get into the more financial stuff with the bank, your realtor leaves and says, “See you later.” So I guess that was kind of surprising. I’m like, ‘Oh, OK, so he’s not here.’ But it makes sense too just that he would come for a little bit of it.

Nate Hedrick: I remember my first — when I bought my first house, I thought that like my agent was going to be there waiting with the keys as soon as I signed and he was going to drop them in my hand, but then there’s a whole — like title had to actually transfer, and there was the — like you’re working with the bank first and finishing the deal. Was that your experience as well?

Michaela Soppe: So we got the keys at closing.

Nate Hedrick: Nice. That’s pretty rare these days. That’s awesome.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, we didn’t have to wait until after for it in our case, at least. So I mean, that was kind of what I expected and I guess what I assumed was the norm. But I also wouldn’t be surprised if it does take awhile.

Nate Hedrick: No, that’s good. And again, that is — it’s more rare these days. And again, some states even require you to have different levels of closing with a lawyer present and things like that. So it’s nice when you can actually do it all in one fell swoop like that. That’s excellent.

Michaela Soppe: And we had kind of asked Sean like, do we need an attorney to be there with us? Are we good? He’s like, ‘Well, unless you have any questions about the stuff that’s already been fixed or gone over,’ like everything he basically had already gone over everything with us and there wasn’t any surprises.

Jacob Soppe: And there’s a lawyer at the title company.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, and depending on your state, that may vary, right? Some states will actually require that you have a lawyer present or that they’re actually the one doing the closing with you. But again, in Ohio where we are, that’s not the case. So good to lean on your agent there for the local guidelines. Well, great. Well Jacob and Michaela, I really appreciate you guys sharing your story. I think, again, it’s a tricky time to be a first-time home buyer, but you guys are proof that it can be quite easily done. And again, YFP is here to help you guys if there’s something to make the process easier. We’re along for that same ride. Any final thoughts or other tips you can share with our listeners?

Jacob Soppe: Well, I can share one thing that we did not include in our search talk, but we were actually looking at a home that we could potentially rent out in the future.

Michaela Soppe: Oh, yes.

Jacob Soppe: Once we outgrow it. It might be awhile before we outgrow it because there’s plenty of space here, but we were looking for a home that we potentially could rent out or even hack out. And we found this home, and the offer we put in fits the 1% Rule that a lot of landlords like to follow when they’re looking for a good home but also I wanted to make sure we bought a home that we could increase the value on. And there’s a lot of opportunity to do that in this home. But we also found that this was — in the neighborhood of like 20 homes, this was like the second lowest valued home in the neighborhood. So we feel like we can really use that to help increase the value of this home if we end up selling it.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, and part of the plan with this home too — and we’ll be here for awhile — but eventually, it’s something that we could easily rent out in the future because it’s a great size for a rental home, and it’s actually really close to the highway. Like you can see the highway, you can’t necessarily hear it all the time. But it’s in its own little neighborhood but in a really good location for people just passing through. So that was something that was always in the back of our mind that we knew we kind of wanted, our realtor knew we wanted it, you knew we were looking for it. So that was something that just kind of like fit together well with the home we ended up getting as well.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, that’s awesome. I think that, you know, your shameless plug for our other show, the YFP Real Estate Investing podcast with David Bright and I as cohosts, if you haven’t checked that out, definitely do so. And maybe we’ll have Jacob and Michaela on that show once they turn this property over and start renting it out. I love it. Well again, guys, really appreciate you guys being with us today and sharing your story. Where can people reach out if they want to get in touch with you?

Jacob Soppe: They can reach me at my email, [email protected]. Soppe is spelled S-o-p-p-e.

Nate Hedrick: Perfect. Well, I’ll make sure to put that in the show notes. And again, thank you guys so much for being here.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, thank you, Nate.

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YFP 222: Why Estate Planning is Such an Important Part of the Financial Plan

Posted on September 23, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Why Estate Planning is Such an Important Part of the Financial Plan

On this episode, sponsored by Thoughtful Wills, estate planning attorneys, Notesong Thomson and Nathan Kavlie, discuss estate planning and its importance in the financial plan.

About Today’s Guests

Notesong and Nathan, Co-Founders, Approachable Attorneys, Thoughtful Wills

Notesong and Nathan met in junior high in Jamestown, North Dakota – a friendship forged in orchestra concerts and speech meets – much laughter in hallways and early-90s nerdiness.

They both started law school in 2001, bonding over the exciting concepts they were learning, the intense 1L reading requirements, and Legally Blonde (released that summer).

Years later, Nathan asked Notesong to help create a law firm that would emulate the automation of LegalZoom but pair it with actual attorneys to create custom, lawyer-drafted Wills at an affordable price point. Thankfully, Notesong said yes!

This friendship is our firm’s foundation – and with each passing year, both grow stronger.

Notesong Srisopark Thompson, Co-Founder | Attorney, Thoughtful Wills

Caring for so many ill and injured children led Nurse Notesong to law school – she wanted to advocate for children from multiple avenues beyond the hospital bedside. After practicing as a pediatric emergency/trauma nurse for over 18 years, Notesong took a break from paid work to be a full time mom to her three sweet and spunky kids – one of her most challenging and rewarding roles. Along the way, she and her husband caved, and their family also welcomed two fluffy sheepdogs who are constantly at her side as she helps translate estate planning into terms and concepts that are understandable – echoing her signature nursing style when she explained painful procedures (such as IV starts) to her tearful and terrified patients as they clung to their parents.

Having dealt with the yuck of creating her own estate plan, Notesong ensures the Thoughtful Will experience respects and addresses the anxieties of parents and non-parents alike, helping make the process as pleasant as possible. She infuses TLC into every aspect of our brand of approachable lawyering. Attention to detail is crucial in both nursing and law – Notesong doesn’t miss a beat.

Nathan Jay Kavlie, Co-Founder | Attorney, Thoughtful Wills

In high school, Nathan knew his science fair presentation was ready when he could explain the enzyme pathways to his grandmother. That ability to translate concepts was rewarded when he won awards at the international science fair, three years in a row.

Many years later after repeated nagging by his Uncle David, Nathan turned his attention to wills and discovered this whole new area of law that desperately needed translation for normal people. He took a year to learn and study wills & trusts law – rewriting the standard “legalese” will into something elegant and understandable. The Thoughtful Will is one of his proudest accomplishments to date (it’s a three-way tie with his marriage and rehabilitating two rescued terriers).

Summary

This week, Tim Ulbrich taps into a topic not yet explored on the YFP Podcast, estate planning. Estate planning attorneys and co-founders of Thoughtful wills, Nathan Kavlie and Notesong Thompson, discuss what an estate plan is, who needs one, the value of a living trust, and why estate planning is an important part of the financial plan.

Thoughtful Wills solves the issue of unpleasant experiences with attorneys, delaying the start of estate planning. Nathan and Notesong have worked to make death planning and lawyering approachable for everyone.

Nathan explains that estate planning is not just about your estate, but everything you own, even non-physical items, when you die. Estate planning is death planning, using our system of laws to make decisions, spreading goodness even after your death. Anyone who has children, people who have pets, married couples, anyone with some assets, and people who have family members that they care about should consider estate planning as a set of directives in the event of your death. Notesong explains that because circumstances in life change, revisiting the estate plan annually is a good idea.

Nathan and Notesong give a general overview of the estate planning documents, including the will, the revocable living trust, other relevant documents of estate planning, and how they work together to protect your estate after your death. Nathan details what probate is and how it affects a person’s assets when they die without a will, versus with an estate plan. Notesong provides an overview of the healthcare directive and the durable power of attorney, which authorize someone to make decisions on your behalf if you are incapacitated.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Notesong and Nathan, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Notesong Thompson: Thanks for having us, Tim.

Nathan Kavlie: Thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: So before we dive into all things estate planning, a topic that we surprisingly haven’t covered in detail on this show before, I’d love for you both to introduce yourselves and give us an overview of the work that you do with Thoughtful Wills. So Notesong, why don’t you kick us off? And then I’ll have Nathan follow.

Notesong Thompson: Sure. Well, it’s nice to meet everybody on the podcast. I am based in Madison, Wisconsin, and I am mom of three young kids — young, spunky kids. We have two sheepdogs who are very needy and wife of a really busy corporate attorney. But yeah, I’m a lawyer and I previously practiced as an emergency trauma nurse for 20 years, so I bring a lot of different perspectives to estate planning.

Tim Ulbrich: And we’re going to tap into some of your healthcare background a little bit later when we get into some of the healthcare directive pieces of the estate planning process. So very good. Nathan, go for it.

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah, so my name is Nathan Kavlie. I live in Minneapolis. Notesong and I, actually, we met in high school in Jamestown, North Dakota, back in the early ‘90s. But I am a lawyer. I was not a nurse, but I did work in a video store for several years, which, you know, oddly, I think was really I think formative, as much as probably anything else in how I sort of approach the world and my work, which is just sort of — we’re all customer service agents I think in the past. And if you aren’t, thinking that way I think you really are kind of missing the boat because I feel like especially in this new world where with masks and distancing, I think if you’re not spending time thinking about how to be friendly and approachable, you are not being friendly and approachable. I think you’re just missing a chance to sort of make people feel welcome and taken care of. But yeah, I live in Minneapolis with my husband, our two rescue dogs, yeah. Life is good.

Tim Ulbrich: Great comment, Nathan, about the importance of customer service and a priority. I actually — you made me think of the book by the founder of Zappos, “Delivering Happiness,” and great story about just that perspective and how important it is no matter what industry that one is in. So before we get into the weeds of estate planning — we’re going to try to make it as lively and fun to really highlight the importance of estate planning as a part of the broader financial plan — but before we get into that, tell us a little bit more about Thoughtful Wills. What is Thoughtful Wills? What’s the problem that you’re trying to solve? And what is the offering that you have, Nathan?

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah, so I think the problem we’re trying to solve is most lawyers are not very friendly or approachable. They kind of suck to work with. And people know that, right? There’s a reason why people — I’m sure you guys at YFP have heard of how often do you ever get clients that come in and they say, “Well, we’ve got all of our estate planning documents ready.”

Tim Ulbrich: Rarely.

Nathan Kavlie: Rarely, because they know that it’s like, you know, you have to take time off from work and go meet with this lawyer who’s probably going to make you feel like an idiot and charge a lot of money. And that’s the experience that I kept running into over and over again amongst my friends. And so you know, it was sort of an epiphany, like why does it have to be that way? And it doesn’t. We can just work online with people all over the country. We can — instead of sitting down and having this meeting, which is long and frankly then becomes expensive because we’re lawyers, right? We sell our time. We don’t do bookshelves, we don’t sell electric cars. We sell our time. And so you know, we can use technology efficiently to sort of save time, reduce expenses, and hopefully then if we’re being really sort of thoughtful about all of this process, we can sort of create kind of an experience for you that is sort of shockingly friendly and approachable. And that’s really what we’ve sort of done is sort of looked at every piece of our process to sort of ask ourselves, like is this understandable to normal people? Does it feel welcoming? Is somebody going to read this and feel supported? And if it doesn’t, then we work on it and frankly, we keep working on it over and over again just because when are you ever like perfect, right? So we’re sort of on a quest to really make lawyering approachable is I think really the crux of what we do.

Tim Ulbrich: So making lawyering approachable is really a big part of what you guys do. And folks can go to ThoughtfulWills.com/YFP and learn more. And we’ll reference that link again later in the show. I was telling my wife about this interview last night, and the way I was describing it, based on our experiences with a young family, going through the estate planning process, we really delayed ourselves in that process probably longer than we should because No. 1, it wasn’t exciting. It’s pretty boring, right? In my mind, it was going to be somewhat painful. And I felt like the industry wasn’t very transparent. As I look at what you guys have built, you really have addressed all three of those. And excited about what that means for not only pharmacists but also other professionals that want to do this part of the financial plan and do it well. Notesong, tell me about your background as an emergency — if I heard correctly, emergency care nurse. What about that experience led you to want to go back to law school and then specifically do the work that you’re doing now with Thoughtful Wills?

Notesong Thompson: Well, it’s funny you say that because Nathan and I reconnected after several years. And ironically, we were actually in law school at the same time. Started in 2001 and then we graduated in — did we graduate in 2004?

Nathan Kavlie: Uh huh.

Notesong Thompson: And I practiced law for a little bit in the juvenile defense world. I did some public defender work, guardian at litem, and pediatric nursing really drove me to the law because I saw so many things at the bedside that really, really troubled me. It just — it had me just wondering going home at night thinking, why is it like this? Why is this child with this abuser? Why is this informed consent issue an issue at all? So I will admit, nursing is my favorite love. And Nathan had to do a little bit of convincing to get me to practice law again, right, Nathan? And largely it was because of what Nathan talked about before is the traditional legal process is in many ways really miserable. And I practiced at a big law firm, and like I said, I did some more public defender work. But ugh. It was just yucky. And I went through the — I went through the estate planning process at my husband’s fancy law firm, and I just want to be clear that there is a place for attorneys and fancy law firms and for big estate planning too. And I’ve got to tell you, the only thing I remember going through that process myself was how much it was filled with yuck. And it was so anxiety-provoking, emotionally challenging, and we were doing this with a friend who took care of us. But it just was yucky, all of it. And so when Nathan finally convinced me to join in, it was after he heard me on a show called “Moms Every Day,” and he recognized that moms make a lot of decisions and keep the ball rolling forward with things that keep getting back-burnered. And as a mom of three young kids, you know, I — and having worked in healthcare in the nursing, I was faced with life-and-death issues every day. And even with that, at the bedside during a code, working with pharmacists who are handing me syringes of epinephrine and just on the ready — I love pharmacists, by the way. Can I just say? They’re the calm in the storm. And no matter what chaos is going on, the pharmacists were there, they just showed up in their cape and quietly handed us the meds we needed. It was like a miracle. But you know, that’s the thing. It’s the best part that I’ve found about being an estate planning lawyer now with the nursing background is that I still get to give TLC to our clients. And I think they are a little bit shocked when I say, “We’re going to take really good care of you and your family.” So yeah, that’s where I’m tying in nursing into estate planning. And it’s been really wonderful.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And as I mentioned, estate planning isn’t a topic we’ve covered a lot in detail on this show before but certainly an important piece of life and one’s financial plan. And we’re not going to be able to get into all the nooks and crannies and aspects of estate planning, but I do think we’ll be able to lay a good foundation and hopefully get folks somewhat excited about learning more about this topic and some next steps that they can take in their own journey. So Nathan, as I was doing research on Thoughtful Wills and your background, one of your claims to fame that’s listed on the website is having a lifelong obsession with making the complex understandable. And so I want to tap into that a little bit here as we just start the conversation of what exactly is estate plan? What do we mean by an estate plan? Who might need one? Why is it important? And what are some of the various documents at a high level that make up the estate plan?

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah. Let’s emulate — I think let’s start with just the word, right? So we’re talking about estate plan, and estate — so this is the weird part. Estate planning is not just about your estate. Estate really just means like all of your stuff when you die. So when you die, all of your cars, your dirty laundry, your CDs, your art, it’s all — everything you own. And not just physical possessions but if you sort of owned patents or if you wrote some music, all of those pieces of property are your estate. And so we’re planning for that. But the problem is it’s like sanitation engineers, right? You know, like garbage truck people? And it’s like, they’re like, “Now we’re going to be sanitation engineers.” Really, what we do is death planning. But nobody likes to say that. And so they’re like, “Well, let’s call it estate planning.” But the thing is that it’s bigger and more important than just your stuff. Right? Because that’s the thing, it’s like, how many people as they’re lying in the hospital bed dying are thinking about like, ‘Wow, I wonder who’s going to get my couch?’ Right? ‘I wonder who’s going to take care of my silverware collection?’ No one cares about that. You care about your family. And your family is not part of your estate because you don’t own your children, right, as much as people might want to. So we’re planning for death. The problem — and this is why people don’t think about it and I think probably at some level why you haven’t done this as a podcast is because it’s morbid. We’re talking about when you die or we’re talking about when you’re in a coma and can’t communicate. Like these are not fun topics. But they’re important topics because you care about the people in your life. And this is the law’s mechanism for how to do that. Our system of laws, it’s kind of amazing. And I feel like — and that’s the thing I try to sort of impress upon people. It’s like, these documents are frankly like superhero documents because they allow you after you’re dead — I mean, you’re gone. But you are still making effect — you’re having effects in the world. You are actually still spreading goodness and care in the world because of these documents that you’ve created. And that’s kind of amazing I think. And you know, our legal system wouldn’t necessarily have to operate that way. There’s no reason why we would sort of say like, Jim died, and he left this fancy house. And we’re going to let Jim decide who gets the house, right? We could say, “Everybody gets a piece of the house,” right? We’ll sell it and put it into the tax coffers. Or Jim’s oldest son would get it. Right? But no, we give people a lot of control to affect these changes if they choose to. And that’s the thing, that’s what estate planning is. It’s you are making affirmative choices to sort of change the world in the ways that you can by using these documents. So the bad news is we’re talking about death, but the good news is we’re talking about this amazing set of documents that can really change the world for the better for the people that you love and your pets because I don’t have kids so I’m always thinking about my pets. So that’s what we’re talking about. We’re talking about death. And I think just put it out there. You know, we don’t introduce ourselves as death lawyers, but that is what we do. And it’s really important. And that’s the thing, it’s like why should people do this? Well, you know, I guess the thing is like you have people in your life that you love. Do you have young children that you care about? Do you? Right? If you have young children that you care about, probably you care about who would raise them if you and your partner were in an automobile accident or something and you both died unexpectedly, right? And I get why people don’t want to think about it. I mean, I think about one of — my oldest dog is almost 18, and the thought of her passing kind of makes me want to curl up in a ball. So I get why parents, it’s like, it’s a huge hurdle to actually say like, let’s affirmatively think through all of those gory scenarios. But the fact is, it’s like, if you want to really take care of your kids, you have to do this. Right? That’s just point blank. If you care about your kids, you should do this. So who should do this? Who should do an estate plan? People with kids, people with pets they care about, people who care about their family. You know, the thing is is that our system of laws also does have a set of default plans. Every state has a system of default plans. So if you don’t do your will, it’s not like all of your property just goes to the state. There’s sort of a mechanism in place for who should get things. And you know, for a lot of people, that system works great. If you both die in a car crash, it’s not like your children are just wandering the streets, begging for money. There is a system in place to sort of decide who should care for your children, right? So I mean, there are these default plans in place. So just to be clear, the “if you don’t do this,” it’s not catastrophic. But yet if you don’t decide who should take care of your kids, most often all of your relatives fight about it in the courts. You know? I don’t know. But there are default plans. The default plans are not the end of the world, but they are not your choices. And there’s chaos and trouble involved with it because there are lawyers and there are custody hearings and it’s all kinds of yuck. And the way that you opt out of the default plan is by creating these estate planning documents.

Tim Ulbrich: And I appreciate, Nathan, what you said about — and I’ve never heard this perspective before, and I like it a lot, which is that we have a system, which has given folks a lot of opportunity to make decisions that might otherwise be made for them. And so I think if we take that perspective and apply it to the estate plan, it’s not as morbid — still a morbid topic — but you know, now we’re in that conversation of, OK, I’ve got some decisions to make. I’ve got some autonomy. I’ve got some choice. And you know, you’re touching on that concept of probate, essentially that process where if folks don’t make these decisions, yeah, there is a net that’s in place but it might not be the desired state that one has, whether it be related to those that are loved ones and their family or even resources that they have. One follow-up question I have here, Nathan, because I think we probably have many folks listening that maybe this is very obvious that they need these documents or have to update them, maybe there’s young children or just children altogether involved, maybe there’s substantial or growing assets, and I think that tends to be fairly obvious. But often, I’ll get the question from folks that maybe someone who’s more of a recent graduate, perhaps doesn’t have a partner or significant other, there’s no kids involved. So is there a point when it’s a clear like, someone should have an estate plan in process? Or is there a period in time where some folks it might be not now, but we need to look at this in the future?

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah, I mean, if you’re single and don’t have any kids and you get along with your family, you’re probably good to go. I can’t be certain, right? I mean, to be absolutely certain, I’d need to do an analysis of your actual circumstances, but if you’re single and get along with your family, you’re probably fine. If you’re single and you don’t get along with your family, you should definitely create an estate plan. One of my best friends from law school is totally estranged from his mom and his sister, and it’s like, well, you need to do an estate plan then because otherwise they’ll get all of the stuff. And that’s not what he wants to have happen. So when you have children, you know, when you’re pregnant or when you’re thinking about kids — and actually, the thing is when you’re thinking about kids is when you should do this ideally. But anytime in that process is great. We get a lot of clients that sort of say like, our due date is x months away, should we do this now? Or should we wait until the baby is born? And the answer always is, do it now. Because when the baby gets here, you will not have any time. You won’t even have time to sleep. So do it now. Do it when you’re thinking about having kids. We can write the documents to basically sort of already account — a lot of what we do as estate planning is we sort of create documents that anticipate many different futures. Because we don’t know what the future will hold. But we know there are some things that might happen. You might have children. You might not have children. And so we can sort of draft the documents as an either-or situation. So when you’ve got kids, when you get married is a good time as well. Yeah. And if you have some assets, that’s always good. I mean, it’s one of those things, I think people think of it sort of like senior photos, right, where it’s like, it’s going to be expensive and you just do it once. And I think it’s a real disservice. I think it’s driven, of course, by awful lawyers that are really expensive and really unpleasant. But I think it’s sort of weird that we think that like you should only do this once because you will know exactly what your life is going to be like. And circumstances change.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that’s true, right, with the rest of the financial plan. You know, we always say when you’re looking at investing or retirement or insurance or whatever it may be, it’s an evolution. It’s a journey, right? And that was, Notesong, a question I have for you before we come back and talk with Nathan about the living trust and then some of the other documents. This concept of OK, it’s a lot of work to get it done but is it something I should be looking at annually or every five years or as life events change? And I’m looking at the site where you’ve got a two-step process, which is evaluating the plan and then wanting to avoid probate and you know, a couple different options where one is you’re creating your plan in that Phases 1 and 2 where you’re then updating that or having some ongoing support, so talk to us a little bit more about what you typically do or recommend with folks in terms of OK, yes, we do this upfront work, but then how often we should be evaluating this.

Notesong Thompson: Sure, absolutely. That’s actually a very common question that we get all the time. We’ve reorganized the way to think about this because the whole process is yucky and it’s overwhelming. So Nathan and I really strive to break it down into nuts and bolts. And so on the ThoughtfulWills.com/YFP page, we’ve created two boxes that talk about Phase 1 and Phase 2. Phase 1 is essentially creating your plan. This is where all of the drafting happens and we can customize it as much as our clients want. And then we also ensure that the document is signed correctly and questions can be asked without, you know, worry of the clock ticking because we also want to try to avoid that because that’s always a fear is how much am I going to get charged for this email exchange? Like we try to avoid that. And then Phase 2 is really equally important because if you get a revocable living trust, it’s important that you actually fund that trust. And there are certain mechanisms that have to — that are in place that need to happen in order to put stuff into that trust. And so that is all under the umbrella of Phase 2. And so as far as like reviewing your estate plan, for example, my husband and I drafted our estate plan — gosh, 14 years ago. And we haven’t had a lot of major life changes. A lot of our — we’re still close to the people we’ve named as legal guardians and backups, my sisters and my sister’s mom, and so luckily, if nobody’s developed a gambling habit where we need to change up who’s going to be the trustee or durable power of attorney. That being said, it’s always — we think it’s always a good idea to review your plan every year, just to make sure your wishes are still reflected. And then also, the revocable living trust, it takes a little bit more work, a little bit more follow-up with that every year. But making sure that you fund your trust, make sure that you are updating your non-probate assets too — and I’ll let Nathan go into that later — but you want to make sure that all of your beneficiaries are up-to-date. So it really drives me crazy when all these online will-making services have really now come onto the scene in light of the pandemic, and everybody facing life-and-death issues, they talk about like all these unlimited amendments and things like that. But what they are not talking about is all of the legal requirements that are required in order to make sure that they’re valid, they’re actually valid. So every time you change your plan or you do a formal amendment, if it’s required, you also have to make sure that it’s re-executed, meaning signed and notarized where necessary. And that’s all based on your state. Each state has really super specific nuances and that’s where we rely on our local counsel attorneys in each state to help us ensure that we’re following their state’s laws exactly to a T.

Tim Ulbrich: And Nathan, Notesong mentioned the revocable living trust, the importance that document can play and I heard you guys talk about this on another podcast as really a magical and powerful document that when utilized and funded correctly can sidestep the high cost and hassle of probate and how important that is for professionals, especially professionals who have a higher income potential. So talk to us more about what is the living trust and the importance and the value that that plays.

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah. So I want to sort of back up before I get to that if that’s OK.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Nathan Kavlie: So I think we should first talk about the will, which is really sort of the foundational document to estate planning. I think most people know what a will is. It’s in TV, right? They all gather when somebody dies and reads the will and then people are all pissed off. But the will is the key, right? The will is sort of the foundational document where everybody sort of — where you create essentially your last testimony about what you want to have happen. And so that sort of superhero document that I talk about — I mean, the set of superhero documents. The will is the first one that people do. In like the 1960s, lawyers starting using what are called revocable living trusts. It was sort of a newer concept back then, but now it’s very subtle but it sort of was a little bit kind of cutting-edge back then, but now it is not cutting-edge because, you know, frankly, who wants to have — when you’re talking about your babies and protecting their assets, people don’t want to be experimental in the law. Right? You want settled law.

Tim Ulbrich: Not the place to be cutting-edge.

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah, exactly. So it was cutting-edge in the 1960s. It is not cutting-edge in the 2020s. Basically, so when you create a will or if you don’t have a will, basically, everything goes through probate. And I think it’s first important to say, what is probate? Because I think everybody sort of hears — if you listen to enough or really any sort of financial wellness sort of podcasts, everybody knows that probate is awful, but I don’t know that people necessarily know what probate is. And probate is our legal system’s sort of mechanism to wind up the affairs of people after they die. So it’s important to understand it’s a judicial process. And that’s why it’s expensive and a hassle because you have lawyers involved and you have a judge involved and then they have to send notice to the interested parties and there are hearings and it takes a long time. We probably all know somebody who is like, “Yeah, my grandfather’s estate took 15 years to probate.” That’s what it is. It’s — but it’s an important process because, you know, since we give the dead a lot of control over their assets, we need to make sure that we know what they really wanted. And if they didn’t make a will, then we need to make sure that the process, the sort of default plans, are followed correctly. And so that’s what probate does. So it’s an important thing, but it’s an expensive hassle. And especially — just somebody has to deal with it, right? You don’t just get to turn it over to the lawyers. Like somebody has to manage the process. And so there are ways that you can avoid probate. One of them is called non-probate assets. And I think people are becoming more and more familiar with these. These are things like life insurance and retirement accounts. Life insurance and retirement accounts, when you open them, you choose a beneficiary. So you say, you know, “When I die, this asset will go to my spouse or to my kids,” or something. And because the asset has a built-in beneficiary mechanism, it doesn’t go through the probate process because our system of laws honors life insurance’s own mechanism.

Tim Ulbrich: Makes sense.

Nathan Kavlie: Assets that are inside of a trust are non-probate. It’s like a $10 legal sentence, but it doesn’t really make sense without context. But the idea here is like your goal — because your house is not a non-probate asset. Your house is a probatable asset. So are your cars. Your cars are a probatable asset. So are your rights to music you wrote and your clothes and all of those things — some bank accounts — all of those things go through probate automatically. But if you move them into a trust, they can avoid probate. And so then the grand idea is well, let’s create a trust that will house these assets and then they can skip probate. Caveat: If you live in Connecticut, you don’t get to skip probate entirely. But this still is a very — it minimizes the hassle and the cost. So just a little caveat there. So the goal here, you create your own trust. Trusts are about as old as wills. They sort of hearken back to like the crusades in England. When the lord was taking up the holy cause and going out to the Middle East, you know, what happens to their assets? And so that’s where trusts came about. They were like, well, you can hold my assets, but you hold them for my benefit. You don’t own these lands. You’re just going to hold them for me because I’m going to be gone for like 12 years or something. So trusts — and trusts are used in many different contexts, not just in estate planning because like some charities are structured as trusts. But estate planning uses a lot of trusts. We can set up trusts for your children to protect their inheritance. We also use these living trusts. So it’s lots of different trusts, but this is the revocable living trust that we’re talking about here. And what it ends up doing is it becomes sort of a companion piece to a will so that together your will and your trust take care of all of your stuff together. But the will ends up becoming a much less important piece of this process. The will ends up acting like a backstop so that if you forget to move any of your assets into the trust, the will says, “Throw all these assets into your trust.” So if you forget to — or you know, if you sign all of your documents and you have like a Beetlejuice car accident on your way home and everybody dies, right, it’s like you won’t have had time to move your assets into the trust. So the will acts as a backstop. The will still is important because the will is still going to contain who should take care of your children, who should be the legal guardians, who should be the guardians of your pets. So the will is still an important document, but when we talk about like where your money should go, setting up trusts for your kids, or if you have somebody who has special needs, all of that goes into the revocable living trust. And we’ve described it as sort of a magic law box. Right? It’s like you create this account that you put your assets into, but it really only works if you put your assets in. Otherwise it’s just sort of really expensive paper. And so that’s when we talk about like Phase 1 versus Phase 2, Phase 1 is when we talk through how many kids do you have? Who should take care of your kids? Where should your stuff go? When we’re talking about Phase 1 and creating your plan, I don’t actually care about any of your assets, which is weird because a lot of people come and they’re like, “Well, I want to tell you all about my assets.” And it’s like, I don’t — it’s sort of jarring for them, their, essentially their death lawyer to be like, “We don’t actually care about your assets right now.” Right? And the reason I don’t care about them at this stage is because I don’t know what you’re going to own when you die.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Nathan Kavlie: No one does, right? So right now, we’re creating a plan that really is just sort of broad strokes. And so we talk more in percentages, right? Like half goes to my spouse and half is divided amongst my kids.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Nathan Kavlie: And whatever you own, you know, that’s the key because we just don’t know, right? So yeah, during Phase 1, I don’t care about your assets at all. At all. That’s where Phase 2 comes in because once we create your plan and we talk about who should take care of your kids and who should get your stuff, then it’s time to actually talk through your assets. Do you have some retirement accounts? Do you have an LLC? You know, maybe you have an investment property as well as your primary residence. Maybe you have a cabin in a different state. Maybe you have some expensive cars. All of those assets, then we start talking about the actual assets because we need to move them inside of your magic law box.

Tim Ulbrich: I mean this honestly, Nathan, I think that is the best explanation I’ve heard of the will and the revocable living trust in about a five or so minute period. So thank you. You’ve lived up to —

Nathan Kavlie: Well thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: — the obsession of making the complex understandable. It was really, really good, and I hope folks will hit rewind and listen to that as well because I think it can feel overwhelming, and that was very digestible. So thank you for that.

Nathan Kavlie: Thank you. Well, I appreciate it.

Tim Ulbrich: Notesong, pressure’s on now. So we talked about the will and the living trust. But that’s not it. We can’t stop there. There are other estate planning documents that we need to be thinking about. So talk us through some of those other documents and what they mean and why they’re important.

Notesong Thompson: Yes. Well, I mean, it’s the world we’re living in right now. Tim, you and I were talking about this before, but everybody is facing life and death right now with the pandemic in our face and its ever-evolving whatever it is. And so the phrase “accidents and illness happen without warning; there are no guarantees in life,” it just has so much more meaning today. And the healthcare directive and durable power of attorney are equally two magical estate planning documents that operate while you’re still alive. And the magic about them is that they both authorize somebody to act on your behalf if you’re not able to, if you’re incapacitated, if you’re in a coma. And we used to previously refer to these initially as coma documents because we tried to talk to people about them as incapacity documents and nobody got it. And they’d be like, ‘Oh, I’m fine. I’m young. I run every day. I do this. I’m so healthy. I’ll come back to you after when I’m older.’ And you know, we never want to pressure people, but at the same time, in that kind of blunt, very candid way, we just say, “OK. Quick question, do you drive a car?” You know? And it is, these are miserable topics. But we have to also consider that these things happen without warning. So both documents authorize someone to act on your behalf if you’re not able to. They authorize someone to act as a power of attorney. And so with the durable power of attorney document, they act as your durable power of attorney as it relates to finances and property. In your healthcare directive, you’re also a power of attorney, but it’s all related to your healthcare. They can make decisions for you. And the healthcare directive actually has two parts to it. The first part is power of attorney for healthcare. The second part is what a lot of people know as the living will. And that’s where you can get really specific as it relates to whether or not you want a feeding tube or assisted breathing, CPR, if you want altered CPR. I really have taken on the healthcare directive as my baby because I was my dad’s backup backup backup healthcare agent when he took his last breath. And as awful as it was, the saving grace there was that — you know, and he was a physician and he knew the importance of identifying exactly what he didn’t want — as awful as it was to be at the bedside, I was able to also give the poor resident who had to show up at 3:30 in the morning with a crying daughter at the bedside, I was able to tell her, “No compressions, just morphine, oxygen.” You know? And honestly, I think one of the greatest gifts that you can give your loved ones is that healthcare directive because otherwise, as Nathan mentioned before, estate planning is just rife with chaos and emotion. And in that moment, you don’t want somebody fighting over what your loved one wanted at the end of their life. So you can get really, really specific about that and also like organ donation as well. And so I think it’s a really powerful document that way. The durable power of attorney, you know, equally too. It seems like a no-brainer to have this in place, but the thing is you mentioned Zappos and wow, I mean, I know that — is it Tony Hsieh?

Tim Ulbrich: Tony Hsieh, yep.

Notesong Thompson: I’m not sure if I’m pronouncing — Tony Hsieh. I mean, the last I read, sadly, tragically, is that he died without an estate plan and that his dad and brother are in court, fighting to be able to take control of his finances, which are in the billions. And so not only is that a hassle, but they have to go through so many court proceedings, it’s expensive, and they’re trying to grieve the loss of their son and brother. So having this simple durable power of attorney in place lets your person of choosing and their backup, and you’re going to choose to have them as co-agents in case you want to have like a checks and balances. That could be a whole show in and of itself is choosing a durable power of attorney. That is equally important because you want to make sure that you’re choosing somebody who’s going to manage your finances while you’re not able to — or equally like if you’re out of the country and you want to move on a property that’s come available and you’ve been looking at it for 20 years, that person can also step in and act on your behalf in that capacity too. And that’s the durable part of it.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And we’ve scratched the surface on these documents but really important points. We’ve talked about the will, we’ve talked about the revocable living trust briefly, the healthcare directive, durable power of attorney, and as I mentioned at the beginning, the goal is not that folks hear this and say, “OK, I’ve got the textbook on estate planning,” but rather hopefully is stimulating some interest and a conversation among folks about where am I at in this process? What do I need? What do I not have? And what steps do I need to take? And I hope folks will check out ThoughtfulWills.com/YFP, where they can learn more about the work that you guys are doing as well as the services that you offer. I also suspect that we might have some folks listening that are saying, “You know what, I’ve done this or I’m going to do this, but perhaps Mom or Dad or Mom and Dad, it isn’t something they have done. And how do I initiate that conversation?” And it reminds me back to Episode 108 where I talked with Cameron Huddleston about how to effectively talk with Mom and Dad about their finances and this obviously being one of those very important conversations. So Nathan and Notesong, thank you so much for your time, for your expertise, for the collaboration. And looking forward to having you back on in the future so we can dig deeper on this topic.

Nathan Kavlie: Thanks. This was fun.

Notesong Thompson: Thank you, Tim.

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YFP 221: One Pharmacy Entrepreneur’s Journey to FIRE

Posted on September 16, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

One Pharmacy Entrepreneur’s Journey to FIRE

On this episode, sponsored by Thoughtful Wills, Michelle Lamb discusses her journey towards achieving FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early).

About Today’s Guest

Michelle Lamb currently works in two very different areas of pharmacy and feels she has found the perfect balance of creativity, flexibility, and job satisfaction. She works in a 1099 contractor position as a Senior Care/Pharmacy Consultant providing pharmacy inspection services for long-term care facilities. She supplements this income with a part-time W2 position (25 hours per week) providing weekly inspection services for hospital drug rooms with a small group of surgical centers. Each job entails some driving but allows her to set her schedule. She has the tax advantages of a small business owner with her nursing home consulting but also receives a full benefits package with her part-time W2 position.

In addition, Michelle is the Founder of LTC Pharmacist Connection, a networking group of over 4000 current (and future) pharmacists in long-term care dispensing and consulting. She plans to release a review book this fall for pharmacists wanting to specialize in geriatrics or studying for their board certification in Geriatric Pharmacy. In addition, Michelle also provides resume reviews for pharmacists planning to enter the field of long-term care pharmacy and writes and helps with an occasional CE program or speaking engagement. She has also partnered with the local university and their student engineers to redesign a product currently used in the drug disposal process.

Michelle’s passions include listening to podcasts, particularly about personal finance. She is a member of the FIRE movement and plans to have the option to retire at 55 with a FIRE number of 1 million supplemented by a small pension from the teachers retirement system. She obtained a savings rate of almost 40% last year and is on track for 25% this year. Her ultimate goal is to reach FI the year her younger son graduates from high school. He has special needs (Down syndrome), and Michelle would like to celebrate his graduation by obtaining a “work is optional” status.

Summary

Michelle Lamb discusses her journey towards achieving FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early). She shares her motivation to pursue FIRE, how she is on the FIRE path despite graduating with student loan debt, and her timeline to achieve FIRE. Michelle also explains how her business, LTC Pharmacist Connection, intersects with her FIRE journey.

Many pharmacists with student loan debt hear about FIRE and the FIRE movement and think the goal is unreachable. Michelle is one pharmacist who has managed to tackle her student loan debt while committing to FIRE. After watching a video from Mr. Money Mustache about FIRE, Michelle was skeptical but inspired. Following the advice of her tax professional, she discovered that her financial independence was within reach – about ten years from now! Michelle has done this by intentionally contributing funds to her retirement accounts and investments annually while making strategic decisions regarding her student loans, making additional payments rather than simply paying the minimum.

After achieving FIRE, which includes paying off her home, Michelle plans on having time to take care of her family, as her timeline links up with the high school graduation of her son. Michelle’s plans include travel, a rental in Colorado with a lake view, and spending time enjoying live music.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Michelle, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.

Michelle Lamb: Hi, Tim. Thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, many of those that are listening know that this past spring, we launched our latest book, “FIRE Rx: The Pharmacist’s Guide to Financial Independence,” written by Dr. Jeff Keimer. And therefore, excited to feature you and other upcoming guests to share real-life pharmacist FIRE stories. And for folks that are listening that want to pick up a copy of that book, “FIRE Rx,” they can do so by visiting YourFinancialPharmacist.com/FIRE. Coupon code INVESTRX will be good for 10% off. Michelle, before we jump into your FIRE journey, share a little bit about your pharmacy background, where you went to school, when you graduated, and the work that you’ve been doing as a pharmacist since.

Michelle Lamb: Sure, Tim. I would be happy to. So before I went to pharmacy school, I graduated with a degree in mechanical engineering from the Colorado School of Minds in Golden, Colorado. My part-time job while I was in engineering school was at a small family pharmacy and really enjoyed that. And kind of at one point decided that I wanted to go to pharmacy school and maybe go back and buy that pharmacy someday. Things didn’t quite work out that way. When I went to pharmacy school, my eyes got quite opened to a lot of different areas, many niches and the clinical roles and so forth that are available. So started pharmacy school in Tulsa, Oklahoma, at the University of Oklahoma in 2004, graduated in 2008, and then completed a residency in community pharmacy, followed by about five years in academia with a focus on ambulatory care. After that, I did a small stint part-time as a hospital pharmacy manager in pediatric inpatient behavioral health. Did that for about a year, really enjoyed the hours and the flexibility. It was Monday-Friday from 10-2. Doesn’t get much better than that. My kids were young. But after a year, I decided that I wanted to work full-time and really try to make a dent in those student loans. At that point, that’s when my career really took a pretty big change. I found a job for long-term care consulting on a ListServ and looked into it, and it was really quite different than anything I had ever done. Primarily in the sense it was pure contract, a 1099 job. I was a little bit nervous about not having benefits and having to navigate health insurance and retirement all on my own, but when I looked at the compensation and the flexibility, I thought, you know, I’m going to give this a shot. So that’s sort of how I entered the world of long-term care consulting and did that for about five years. And then COVID hit. I imagine like you, my world really turned upside down, especially as an employee entering nursing homes. I went from going to about 20 facilities and driving 5,000 miles a month to overnight not driving at all.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Michelle Lamb: My work went completely remote in a matter of just a few hours. So of course that was last spring, and after a few months of working remote and being able to knock those chart reviews out from the comfort of my own home, I thought to myself, you know, I really think I can get a second job. And a little bit scary, but looking at student loans and some of my long-term goals, which included FIRE as I’m really excited to talk about, I picked up a second part-time job providing hospital inspections of their drug rooms. In Oklahoma, this is a niche area of pharmacy where hospitals able to open up a small drug room without a pharmacist but it does need to be inspected once a week by a pharmacist. And we help monitor their policies and procedures, training, and so forth. So now I’m balancing really that 1099 contract work with a W2 job with benefits and feel that really, that’s the sweet spot. It’s going pretty well.

Tim Ulbrich: And we’re going to come back to that and talk about why that combination of 1099 and W2 has allowed you to progress and advance your financial goals. It’s interesting, Michelle, I don’t think I knew this about you before, but we share a lot in common. While I don’t have a background of being a mechanical engineer, I too graduated in 2008, I did a community residency, I spent time in academia, spent some time in the pharmacy administration world, and we share an interest, of course, and a passion for personal finance. So pretty cool to see those connections. So thank you for sharing your background there. One of the things I want to get right out in the gates on when we talk about FIRE is FIRE, Financial Independence Retire Early, we’ve talked about it on the show before. We had Scott Rickins, author of “Playing with FIRE” on Episode 188, we’ve had a couple blog posts that we’ll link to in the show notes as well. But I think Michelle, when folks hear Financial Independence Retire Early, I think sometimes there’s an assumption of you’re trying to escape or get away from your work because perhaps folks may not enjoy what they’re doing. But as you’re sharing your career story, I can’t help but hear the energy and the enthusiasm that you have for the work that you do. So what is the motivation for you? What’s the why behind your FIRE pursuit?

Michelle Lamb: Gosh, that is a big question. And there’s probably several answers. I’d like to just — you know, you’ve commented on the FIRE movement, Financial Independence Retire Early. I would like to say I am a pharmacist that loves not just my job but I love both of my jobs. So I have no real intention for the retire early part. You know, I may cut back here and there, but I feel blessed to have found a part of pharmacy that I honestly think that I could do for many, many years. I’m completely happy with the work that I do, and it’s really, really satisfying. So for me, I’d like to really focus more on the FI part, which is the financial independence. There are so many reasons that I think that it’s important to just really be able to take some time away from work where in my mind, financial independence that you’ve saved enough money where you could live off some of the proceeds from your investments and not have to work for a few months or even years if you want. I got started late on this journey, so my FI path is probably about 10 years from now. On a personal note, that really corresponds with when my son graduates from high school. He does have special needs, and that puts an extra financial and really emotional burden on a family and finances. So my plan is to really have our house in order so that when he finishes high school that I’m not having to worry about what’s the next step in his journey because my financial journey may be just really, you know, watching out for him and taking care of our family.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think that’s a really important comment, Michelle, and I appreciate you sharing that, is I think the motivation for the FI or for that whole FIRE can be very different, is very different, you know, for everyone. And I think for folks that are listening and hear your story and get energized and excited — and we’re going to dig into that here in a few moments — is really taking some time to reflect on what’s the purpose? Right? What’s the vision for you? You know, sometimes I think we hear that concept of becoming financially free or becoming financially independent, retire early, and it’s exciting. But taking the time to dig a couple more levels deep and peel back the onion of what’s the purpose? What’s the vision? Why are we going to do this? Because I think that folks will really uncover and perhaps folks that are doing this together with someone else on their financial journey, those motivations might be different. I think being able to articulate that is really valuable as one is going throughout the plan. Michelle, you mentioned student loans in your introduction. And so I want to ask and start there in that I think sometimes, pharmacists, especially if they’re carrying around significant student loan debts, we’ve chronicled that to detail on this show, median debt load of a pharmacy graduate in 2021 is $170,000. That number has gone up significantly over the last decade since you and I graduated in 2008. But I think sometimes we hear student loans and we hear FIRE and we think, eh, do these two things really grow and go together? And so tell us about your situation and graduating with student loan debt, what that position looked like, and then how you’ve been able to navigate that student loan repayment while also having FIRE and that journey towards FIRE be possible.

Michelle Lamb: Yeah, that’s a great question, Tim. It really does seem to be a reality of becoming a pharmacist that so many times, student loans are part of that journey. And not just, you know, a few thousand. Often six figures of student loans, which I also had myself as well. I was fortunate that I went to an in-state school, but even despite that, I had well over $100,000 in student loans when I graduated. What was really interesting to me is for a few years, I didn’t really know how much I had, you know? They were in a few different places, and I was just sort of making the minimum payment. As a resident, I didn’t pay anything. I was told I could keep them in deferment, so I did. Just sort of made sense at the time. Then in academia, when I went over and finally had my first full-time job at the university, I would make the payments, but I wasn’t very strategic about the amount that I would pay or how much I would pay, what type of payment plan. You know, it was the first time I’d worked full-time before and I had the money to make the payment they told me to, so I did. You know? I think things really changed for me when I took that 1099 contract job. I realized that I was essentially financially — I had to kind of figure it out myself. I didn’t have an HR department to help me, you know, understand deductions or again, health insurance, you know, things like long-term disability and so forth. So I really sat down and thought, if I’m going to essentially work for myself as a contractor and own my own LLC, I really want to be sharp about how I’ll be able to do this. And so that’s when I really, really started to try to make a dent in those loans, making some extra payments as well. My job took me away from my family some, and so it was an extra layer of responsibility where I wanted to be very clear and intentional with my money. And so I started tracking all of my expenses and started really with Dave Ramsey, which I think is a good place for some people to start, listened to all his podcasts, but then just wanted to learn more, you know, kind of take it a step beyond that. So even despite still having some student loans, I started working very hard to avoid any new debt and pay the loans I have aggressively, avoid consumer debt, and become savvy about what is the interest rate on my loans v. what’s the interest rate on my mortgage v. how is the market returning? You know, do I want to play in crypto a little bit? I don’t know. ANd so I just think really that you can certainly do both. So I still have student loans, but I sort of use just extra or side hustle money to kind of throw that at that and I’m now on track to have them paid off by the end of next year.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. That’s great. And I think it’s a good reminder that often when you’re doing financial planning, you’re doing more than one thing at a time. And so you know, that could be home purchasing and student loans, here we’re talking about aggressive savings and student loans, but you know, certainly an opportunity for others that I suspect — many listeners are listening with a student loan position that is significant and might feel like a barrier to them achieving their long-term savings goals. In terms of your initial interest in FIRE, Michelle, was there a particular “Aha!” moment when you realized that you wanted to jump on the FIRE train? Was there a resource or a talk? Or where did that initial spark come from?

Michelle Lamb: Initial spark came from Mr. Money Mustache. And he has a very interesting and pretty entertaining TED Talk-style video of what exactly does it mean to be able to FIRE. And he often uses I believe it’s the number of tracking your expenses and saving 25x that amount. And the first time I saw that, I just thought to myself, there is no way. It’s absolutely impossible. In fact, the first couple years as a contractor, I didn’t put anything into retirement. You know? I just — no one had taught me how to set up a SEP IRA or how to save money on your own. And after a couple years, I think maybe my second year into it, my tax guy said, “You know, if you would put a little money into retirement, it could really reduce your tax burden.” And I think at that time, he had suggested $18,000. And the way that the timing with the tax worked, I actually was able to save that by the end of that fiscal year. When I realized that it could be done, started to do it, and then after a year or two just watched that compound and really get excited about index funds and just kind of learning about compound interest and watching it grow. So kind of then looking at that in combination with the money I was able to save working for someone else in a W2 position, combining all of that, starting to track it and graph it and project that out about 10-12 years, that’s when it started to get really fun. And now I just kind of throw as much money at it as I can.

Tim Ulbrich: Let’s dig into that a little bit further. I think often the FIRE movement, while there’s many flavors of the FIRE movement, folks may associate very aggressive savings with the idea, again, even though here we talked more about financial independence, less about the retire early, but to get to that point of financial independence, however you’re calculating it, that it may take very, very aggressive saving. So tell us about for you, you know, what is approximately the savings rate that you’re targeting to do? And how are you achieving this among other competing priorities, one of which we already talked about, you know, being student loan debt?

Michelle Lamb: Right. So with the unusual situation of working for myself last year and then most of 2020 being able to work remote and getting paid the same amount in my contract position but having no expenses, picking up that second job made all the difference in the world. In fact, I think I saved so much last year that my accountant said, “You know, you’ve got to be careful. Kind of worried you’re putting these to really maximize your deductions.” So I was able in 2020 to have almost a 50% savings rate.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Michelle Lamb: I completely recognize this will never happen again. It was just sort of a fluke of the times, again, working from home, no travel. You know, when COVID hit, I had refunds come in for trips and concerts and, you know, just subscriptions, gym subscriptions. Money kind of flowed back in and I was making more and had no expenses. So for 2020, I was able to achieve that really high savings rate. Not only that, I’m not scared of investing. I’m really in it for the long haul. So I think when you kind of saw that stock market going down, I look at my investments and I thought, March or April, I was putting extra in. So that really helped for my returns. It’s kind of fun now to look at that yearly return with index funds and kind of see a hit — I think almost a 40% return.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Michelle Lamb: Which that will never happen again. When COVID kind of settled down and the nursing homes opened back up, I had to cut back down on the consulting. And that’s when I picked up also the W2 work. I sort of think of it as a pendulum, you know, that kind of swings some to the left, some to the right, depending on what are the obligations at each role. It’s nice. They balance each other. Now, I would say that my consulting is probably, you know, 10 business days, 8-10 business days a month.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Michelle Lamb: And my W2 position is about 25 hours a week.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Michelle Lamb: So through that W2 role, I maximize my percentage savings rate. I kind of watch it and try to hit I think it’s $18,000 a year now in my 401k. And then I’ll also put in — anything extra from the consulting, I’ll put into my SEP IRA.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Michelle Lamb: So probably looking more 20-25% this year. But again, that just varies with contract obligations and how many hours I’m picking up.

Tim Ulbrich: And I appreciate the comment, you know, Michelle, about the flexibility. Pandemic aside, especially for folks that have young children or even for anyone regardless that things change from any given year, and I think that’s where some of the stress can come from sometimes. If you put a very stringent goal out there, whether it’s 40%, 50% savings rate, you know, things are going to happen. And maybe sometimes it’s higher than that, maybe sometimes it’s lower than that, but that really is the target that you’re trying to shoot for and will require some flexibility to make sure you’re in it for the long run. Michelle, whether that number is 20% or 25% or 30% or 50%, it’s significant, right? And I think that by having the diligence and by having the discipline to put away such a significant savings, that means you are intentionally choosing to not spend that money on other things that could be priorities and goals today. And so there’s a little bit of this delayed gratification to be able to achieve this financial independence. And one of the things we talk about often with our clients at YFP Planning is, you know, we’ve got to be developing a plan that yes, takes care of our future self, but also ensures we’re living a rich life today. And so how have you reconciled that where when you’re saving at a 40% or 50% savings rate, that means that there’s other things that you aren’t doing today. Talk to us a little bit about that.

Michelle Lamb: Yeah, so you know, some of the things that I’m not doing today that I wish I could, I’m probably like a lot of your listeners and a lot of the world that works from home, you know, I office out of my living room. And I’m barely with COVID retreating a little bit. I’m able to have friends over and share time with other people in my home and we’re walking around my desk and my bookcase and my printer. And so you know, kind of putting a big move like that on pause, that’s kind of part of our journey right now. But that’s not to say that you can’t have a high savings rate and just really work hard to save and have a great time too. So one thing I did last year — probably before it got real popular — is I bought a little motor home. It’s a 1978 GMC Midas. In fact, it’s so old, it has a CB radio.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Michelle Lamb: Which is super cool, I know. It’s really fun. So you know, I love to take that out to the lake on weekends. And so it could be instead of taking a trip across the country, we maybe go camping at the state park in our little motor home and get outside and enjoy nature. Also, you know, travel mostly in the summer. I love to go see concerts. I went to Colorado last year and fall hits, and now I’m going to be home for awhile.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s neat. And you mentioned a couple mechanisms for saving. I heard you say 401k, I heard you say SEP IRA. And again, that’s because of your split income with the W2 and the 1099 and obviously having your own business with that 1099 income opens up some other savings opportunities. But one of the well-known challenges with Financial Independence Retire Early, especially if folks are planning to start withdrawing that money before the age of 59.5 where we think of traditional accounts being accessible without a 10% penalty, is we’ve got to think a little bit differently about where we’re putting this money. So certainly this is not meant to be investment advice, so I don’t want folks to hear what your investing strategy or plan or where you’re putting in and hear that and say, “OK, that’s what I’m going to do,” right? That may or may not be appropriate, depending on their plan. But tell us a little bit about your strategy for where you’re saving, how you’re saving, I think I heard you talk a little bit more about a passive investing approach, probably an approach you’re keeping the fees low. Tell us a little bit more about the saving strategy.

Michelle Lamb: Yeah, so this is something that it’s taken me a couple years to really even wrap my mind around some of the vocabulary involved. And Tim, you mentioned that you have financial planner services. I would really recommend to anyone that’s looking at saving and investing, considering the FIRE movement, definitely get the help of a professional because there’s just — there’s so much to learn. As a 1099 contractor, again, I didn’t put anything away for the first couple years. And I really, really regret that. But once I got on board with that, I did establish an account with Vanguard. I’m a big fan of their index funds and BTSAX, which is basically just buying a little slice of the market. And I put that money in there and don’t plan to touch it for quite some time. I also am able to put money into my 401k with my part-time employer, and they’ve started matching that, which is fantastic. That’s through a Fidelity retirement target date fund, so it’s kind of fun to watch the performance of those two kind of bounce against each other. I have a small teacher’s retirement from the University of Oklahoma, which is wonderful. That I believe I could actually access a little bit earlier than 59.5. Of course, if you wait longer, you can get out a little bit more. But for me, that would be an option at age 55.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Michelle Lamb: If I choose to need a bucket of money to take out of before then. I also put just a little bit kind of what I’d call the playing-in-the-sandbox money, just a few percentage points of my investment, into ethereum. I don’t know. You know, if Mark Cuban says it’s a good thing, maybe it is. I don’t know. So but anything I put money into, even that play-in-the-sandbox money, I have no intentions to touch it until probably, again, when my kids finish high school, so 8 or 10 years. So I’m really in it for the long haul. You know, I think having a good emergency fund, the 3-6 months of expenses, helps kind of buffer that as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that makes sense. And again, a variety of different options it sounds like. And you have some unique tax considerations as well I suspect as a 1099 employee as well as having W2 income. So I think this is an example, without going down the tax rabbithole, of where good tax planning can supplement good financial planning as well and making sure you’re considering that not only on the accrual phase but also on the withdrawal phase, whenever that would be at a later point in time. Michelle, some of the common objections to the FIRE movement, you know, we talked about one of them already, which I think you addressed nicely, which is hey, you can love your career — and I’m glad to hear that you do, and I think many of our listeners do — you can love your career and still pursue financial independence. I personally think that’s a goal we should all strive towards with the retire early being optional. Other objections are things like hey, if I don’t have my employer, what about things like health care? What about being able to purchase disability? You know, other types of considerations like that. What are we going to do with our time and money? So talk to us about how those objections really have any impact, if any impact, as you think about your FIRE journey over the next 10 or 20 years.

Michelle Lamb: One point I’d like to make is people have this wrong assumption that they should or just have to work until age 60, 65, 70, or higher. And you know, I think the first thing to do is just take a step back and challenge that assumption. You know, what do you honestly — what do you want to be doing in your 50s? And for me, I don’t want to be clocking in somewhere and standing on my feet for a 10-hour shift or I don’t want to be driving across the state in bad weather, dodging tornadoes here in Oklahoma to do my inspections. So I think that’s the first step is kind of to really challenge these expectations. And if you look at the numbers and play with some of the retirement calculators, which I’m sure you’ve got some ideas on, just putting a few percentage points more into your retirement early can make such a difference down the road. So you know, I think that’s a good place to start. There’s so much to be done outside of work for me. It’s travel and camping, being outside, being with my kids, that I want to be able to enjoy that when I’m still young. Now, could there be some problems? Sure. You know, the health insurance one is really tricky. But I think the FIRE movement is getting so strong. There’s lots of great resources to try to even battle that one. One tip I’ve heard — and honestly, I don’t know if this would work or not, but I’ve heard of some people taking a few college classes and trying to get student health insurance. Now, is it going to be the best plan on earth? Or how many hours do you have to take? I don’t know. I’m not in that boat now. But I know there’s some really creative ways to try to tackle that. You know? I think both you and I having taught at a university, even teaching a class at a community college, you know, something where it may be a significant drop in salary, but it could be something that the value of the benefits that come with it could be huge.

Tim Ulbrich: And I love what you said, Michelle, about just challenging the assumption of “traditional retirement age,” right? It’s one of the questions I like to ask pharmacists just to get them thinking. And I can tell sometimes it’s the first time someone’s asked the question is hey, have you thought about what retirement looks like for you, what it means for you? Like what does living a rich life mean to you? You know, if we fast forward 30 years and you look backwards, what needs to happen that you would say, ‘This has been a success’?” And I think sometimes we ask a question of when are you going to retire? And it’s 65, and then we get out our fancy calculators and model out savings rates and all of that. And that has a role or value. But these questions are really important about what matters most to you and what is the value of achieving financial independence? And I remember for me, Michelle, reading several years ago “Four-Hour Workweek” by Tim Ferriss, and I think he talks about the concept of like what if we re-thought of retirement as more of like mini retirements kind of throughout our career and not necessarily in this phase where we work for 30 years then we just all of a sudden stop working. And that resonates with me because I love the work that I do, but I also like to have breaks and I like to have points in time where you can pursue interests, other hobbies, other opportunities. And so I think that integration of work and life will resonate for many folks as well. What is the plan to celebrate, Michelle? So when you reach this FIRE number, you get to that magic FI number, like have you thought about the celebration plan? What’s going to happen?

Michelle Lamb: Oh gosh, well, part of our FI journey involves having a paid-off house.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Michelle Lamb: And so we’re getting pretty close on our home now. And so I think part of that may involve travel as well. I’m a big fan of Colorado, so I have my eye on some senior apartments that are right downtown in Golden, Colorado, for age 55 and up, which is about 10 years for me from now. So you know, maybe renting a cool unit where I could walk along the creek and go see concerts at Red Rocks is pretty appealing to me. Oklahoma has a lot of lakes too though, so I think — you know, travel is different now where you can even do like Tim Ferriss says and take a few months off and work perhaps remotely in different places. But definitely there will be a lake view involved somewhere.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think the pandemic accelerated that, right? I think we’re going to see more creativity and employers being comfortable with some of those more nontraditional models that might be more in line with what folks are desiring today. Michelle, one of the things you mentioned earlier, I think if I heard you correctly, your anticipated FI date is somewhere at about the point where your children will be graduating from high school. And as I hear that, I can’t help but think that this really has been a family journey. And so tell me about as you’ve gone through this journey, obviously there’s decisions that the family is making, one of which I mentioned earlier, if you’re aggressively saving, that means there’s other things that you may not be doing or doing differently. And so how has this impacted the family, both in terms of whether that’s sacrifices or opportunities for the family to have and be on this experience together?

Michelle Lamb: Gosh, Tim, that’s such a great point. My husband is extremely supportive of our journey as well. You know, I’m one of these that I made him sit down and watch Mr. Money Mustache on YouTube, and I made him watch the documentary that came out on the FIRE movement. And he kind of might snooze a little bit, but he’s definitely on board. He owns his own small business as well. And so we definitely work as a team to make that work. Some sacrifices that we’ve made: I think living in a smaller home. We’ve chosen to kind of have our family in a home where maybe not more than one person can go in the kitchen at one time, but that’s not going to necessarily be the case forever. If we move, we’ll have a paid-off home first, probably rent it out for whatever would cover a new mortgage, also with a down payment, and then maybe kind of move on from there.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And I want to wrap up by asking you about part of how I got to know you and your journey is I followed some of the work that you’ve done with the long-term care pharmacist connection. So in addition to your W2 and your 1099 work, you also have started a community of long-term care pharmacists. Tell us a little bit more about that group, why you started that group, and really the goals you’re hoping to accomplish.

Michelle Lamb: Thanks, Tim. So for me, I entered long-term care about five years ago, and my role specifically is nursing home consultation where I go in, I’ll do chart reviews, check the med rooms, check the med carts, and help with med destruction. I absolutely love long-term care. I never thought when I was in pharmacy school that I would enjoy working with the geriatric patient population as much as I do, but I just really love it. I am a member of the Pharmacist Mom’s Group, so shout out to another really cool Facebook group, and my heart would just break when I would see good, hardworking pharmacists and moms just really struggle with some of the expectations that are involved these days in community pharmacy. And it’s probably, gosh, even more so these days with COVID boosters and just ever-increasing expectations. So I would comment every now and then, you know, “Hey, don’t forget about long-term care. I’m genuinely happy. I set my own schedule. I make as much money now as I ever have or did in any other setting.” So just really trying to spread the optimism of this niche that I never learned about in pharmacy school. And I started answering the same question over and over again of, what is long-term care? How do I get in it? And you know, just how do I meet people? So I created a Facebook group called LTC Pharmacist Connection, really just for that purpose where I’d say like, “Gosh, come over to the Facebook group. There’s lots of people with questions about how to make a career change, and let’s bounce ideas off of each other.” That was about three years ago, and I’ve tried to keep the Facebook group just really focused in on pharmacists and interns that want to go in that niche. I think because there’s just a lot of pressure in other types of pharmacy right now, there’s a really growing interest in that. At this point, we’ve got about 4,000 members.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome.

Michelle Lamb: Yeah. And I just am so pleased to see the positivity in long-term care and just the growing opportunities that are really coming up. So it’s a — come check out the group, lots of good networking, some job postings, and I think it’s really helpful.

Tim Ulbrich: And that group is LTC Pharmacist Connection. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Michelle, for you and your journey, resources that have been really helpful in the FIRE journey as well as engaging with the rest of the community. So you mentioned one, Mr. Money Mustache and some of the resources that they’ve had. And I think probably many of our listeners are familiar with some of that work, which is really great readings that he’s been putting out for several years now. What other resources have been really helpful to you on your FIRE journey?

Michelle Lamb: So Tim, kudos to you and your podcast. I will say especially driving 5,000 or 6,000 a month in my car, podcasts have been a great resource to me. I started with Dave Ramsey, and as I learned about the FIRE movement, I found a few others that I really enjoy: Stacking Benjamins is fantastic, also Afford Anything has been a great source of information. Also reading, I would highly recommend a book called “The Simple Path to Wealth.” It really just spells out what do I do when I’ve got debt but I’ve got goals and I don’t know where to start and how do I invest? It really does break it down and is just a great place to start. Excel spreadsheets, you know, track your expenses, track your net worth, track your savings. And also, I really like some of the retirement calculators. You know, I kind of play with my budget and I think, OK, if I put $750 in this month, what would that look like 20 years from now? What if I bumped it to $1,000? What if I took a year off? So just playing with projections has been a big help.

Tim Ulbrich: Great recommendations. We’ll link to those in the show notes. You mentioned the Afford Anything podcast, Stacking Benjamins podcast, the book “Simple Path to Wealth.” I mentioned another resource earlier, “Playing with FIRE” by Scott Rickens, great book, great documentary as well. We had him on Episode 188. And then a shout out to Jeff Keimer, who wrote “The FIRE Rx: How to Retire Early as a Pharmacist Achieving Financial Independence.” And as a reminder, you can pick up a copy of that book at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/FIRE, and you can use the coupon code INVESTRX for 10% off. Michelle, beyond the LTC Pharmacist Connection Facebook group, if someone wants to connect with you, learn more about your story, ask you a question, where is the best place they can do that?

Michelle Lamb: I would have them come over and see me on LinkedIn. Michelle M. Lamb or just look for LTC Pharmacist, and you’ll find me.

Tim Ulbrich: Great. Thank you so much for your time coming on the show, for sharing your journey, and looking forward to following the rest of your FI journey here over the next several years. Thank you, Michelle.

Michelle Lamb: Thanks, Tim.

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YFP 220: Student Loan Forbearance Extension – Now What?

Posted on September 9, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Student Loan Forbearance Extension – Now What?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner talks about how those with student loans should be calculating their next moves considering the most recent extension of the administrative forbearance through January 2022.

About Today’s Guest

Kelly Reddy-Heffner is a Lead Planner at YFP Planning. She enjoys time with her husband and two sons, riding her bike, running, keeping after her pup ‘Fred Rogers.’ Kelly loves to cheer on her favorite team, plan travel, and ironically loves great food but does not enjoy cooking at all. She volunteers in her community as part of the Chambersburg Rotary. Kelly believes that there are no quick fixes to financial confidence, no guarantees on investment returns, but there is value in seeking trusted advice to get where you want to go. Kelly’s mission is to help clients go confidently toward their happy place.

Summary

Tim Ulbrich welcomes YFP Planning Lead Planner Kelly Reddy-Heffner back to the show to discuss how those with student loans should be calculating their next moves considering the most recent extension of the administrative forbearance through January 2022. Kelly talks through how to maximize the time left to evaluate your loan repayment options and choose the best next steps for your situation.

Kelly walks through the recent history of administrative forbearance for student loans taking us through to the current and likely final extension set to end at the end of January 2022. During this time of administrative forbearance, recent pharmacy graduates may not have had to make any payments. Others may have allocated the funds elsewhere, new expenses may have arisen, or employment status could have changed. In response, Kelly shares some general advice on making the most of the remaining forbearance period.

The Student Loan Analysis is one way to help pharmacists feel confident with their financial decisions regarding their student loans and to map out realistic goals for repayment regardless of the type of plan. Kelly outlines how the Student Loan Analysis at YFP works, who should consider it, the information to have on hand for your appointment, and where to gather all of your loan details, whether your loans are in the federal or private sector.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Kelly, welcome back to the show.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Thank you, Tim. I am happy to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s been awhile. We had you on last Episode 187, where we talked about how to maximize your student loan strategy while federal student loans payments are paused. And that was back in January 2021, and I think at the time we thought, hey, this whole student loan forbearance thing might be coming to an end soon. And here we are again, talking about this topic and what this pending end to the administrative forbearance means. And so Kelly, kick us off by just bringing the audience up to speed on the background of the administrative forbearance on student loans and the extensions that have recently been extended one last time is what we’ve been told.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely. Right. So nothing has changed and yet it feels like everything has changed at the same time. The perfect feeling. Right, we originally had that administrative forbearance at the start of COVID in March of 2020 by the Trump administration. It was extended once during that presidential administration. And then now, we’ve seen with the Biden administration that it was extended two more times. So we had that extension until September, and now we have what I believe is the final time where we have until January 31. So I do think we’re coming to the end of the forbearance extensions, in my opinion. So we’re going to enjoy a few more months of 0% interest, no loan payments due, and of course those loans not having any default issues. So a couple more months, but we’re coming to the end of it.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and Kelly, you and I were talking before we hit record, I think one of the challenges — and certainly there’s been some benefits during this time period. We know firsthand from many in the community that they’ve been able to through this administrative forbearance accelerate the achievement of other financial goals, and that certainly has been a positive but also coming up on the two-year mark, essentially, right? So March 2020, you know, we entered lockdown, the pandemic, we started the forbearance with the CARES Act. So this time period of two years, I think that presents an interesting challenge where perhaps folks have gotten used to having no student loan payment and perhaps other expenses that have come to be. And then I think about the classes of 2020 and 2021 specifically where student loan payments haven’t even been a thing, you know, for them because of their graduation during this time period. So I suspect, Kelly, that a lot of pharmacists, a lot of folks listening out there, perhaps clients that you’ve been working with, have been wondering, should I or should I not make payments on my student loans during the administrative forbearance? And certainly this is not meant to be and it’s not individual advice, but what are your thoughts on this? And how have you helped coach folks through making this decision?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Well, I think you’re right that, you know, two years is a lot of time. So we changed our financial goals and priorities changed considerably, our employment may have changed in that timeframe as well. In general, I think I speak for our podcast listeners that they are proactive. They want to be taking action. They’re listening because they want strategies to put into place. So this has been a very interesting time period. We’re feeling like we’re not doing anything with the student loans. But there are a lot of things that we could be doing in the background, which I think can have a very positive impact on net worth and put our listeners in a great position for when repayment starts again that they’ve accomplished a couple other things. So we’ve been recommending if you are, you know, having any other debts, take care of those. Anything accumulating interest should be a top priority while this federal loan is not accumulating any interest. Building up an emergency fund — so again, we may not see net worth increase because the student loan debt is paid off. But we can see positive changes because those emergency funds are improving and giving people more options and more confidence in their finances. If you are in a PSLF program or a non-PSLF forgiveness program, then we’re not making payments at all on the federal side because there’s no benefit to doing that. But if you are only paying the loans, that is your strategy, you’ve either done the math yourself or spoken to a professional and you know that that is your plan, then that really could be on the agenda. Like if it’s comfortable to make those payments on the federal loans, then that could be an activity as well. But we do need to get back into the mindset of the payments are coming back. So we are asking clients and listeners to know at least a rough idea of what the payment amount is and to bring that back into your budget.

Tim Ulbrich: Great point, Kelly, there. I think it’s time to dust off, re-dust off the budget and really look at — run the calculators, use the tools that are available at studentloans.gov, you know, what is that estimated payment going to be as we get into February 2022? And how does that work or what changes need to be made to the budget to make that work, right? And now is the time to get the practice reps so that we’re not caught off guard in the New Year and we can make some adjustments or changes and have some time to warm up to that. And I think that’s a really important point and perhaps one that folks have been thinking about but dragging their feet on for good reason because of all the talk of the extension and I think I believe, you believe, that this is likely the end of that. And so let’s get ready for those payments to begin at the beginning of February 2022.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Agree. I mean, there was a statistic out there that 90% of the over 45 million borrowers were not making payments as of March of this past year. So that is the bulk of borrowers not making those payments. So it is time to figure out what that payment might look like. Like you said, recent graduates, 2020/2021, may have had an income tax return with part of a year in residency or the full year in a residency. So that payment amount could be very low. Once they’ve started full-time employment, income has increased, if they’re on an income-driven repayment plan, that’s what drives what that payment amount is, the income. So that will have potentially changed significantly.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, one of the things, Kelly, I often share with new graduates or even students that are beginning to think about student loan repayment is because of the complexity of the options that are out there, both federal and private — and we’re going to come back to that here in a little bit — this is not a decision that you want to wander into. Right? We want to be intentional with understanding those options, we want to be intentional with thinking about how this fits in with the rest of the financial plan. And here we are, we’ve got months to do that, right? So let’s take advantage of this time period, the end of 2021, and let’s really get ready so that we can hit that beginning of repayment when the pause ends and we can be confident with making that decision. And as we’ve talked about on the show before, you know, choosing between Option A v. Option B v. Option C, given the amount of student loan debt that many pharmacists have, that can be very significant in terms of the amount that’s going to come out of pocket because of the nuances with the different repayment plans. So intentionality really matters here. And let’s use this time that we’ve got left before this administrative forbearance ends to make sure that we’re ready in making that decision. Kelly, Step No. 1 — so I’m somebody listening and maybe I’m not loving the energy of this episode and the reality that hey, I’ve got to get back in the game. But I’m listening, I’m ready, and whether I’m a 2020/2021 grad or perhaps I was paying prior to the pandemic and it feels like forever ago and I’ve got to get back in the game, what is the first step that listeners can take to get ready for payments to start back up?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely. Well, again, just knowing what we’re dealing with, like what are the loans? Taking that inventory, you know, understanding which ones are federal, which ones are private, they have very different attributes in terms of what types of options are available for repayment. So we want to know what are we working with? What do we have on the table? And again, I think figuring out some of the other lifestyle goals as well, we cannot ever undervalue like how people feel about the loans, what they really want to accomplish with other goals as well. So you can look at studentloans.gov, which will actually redirect to studentaid.gov, to get some calculators, some information. That also is the source of your NSLDS file for taking that inventory and then pulling your credit report, you can get your free annual credit report and seeing like, OK, what’s federal? What’s private? I think knowing how much you can afford is key too. So sometimes that payment amount is what the payment amount is but knowing what your budget is, what you can afford, will help determine like do you need to be in an income-driven repayment and putting a plan in place? Is refinancing a better option because you have resources available? So again, there are resources out there to assist with this. But it’s a lot of data, a lot of information, a lot of subtle nuances. Even we have to be like, hold on. What is the date of the loan? That sometimes will impact what repayment options are available, just literally the date the loan was taken out.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And so Step No. 1, you know, if you don’t have that up-to-date information is understanding all of the information about your federal and private loans. What’s the balance? You know, who is servicing those loans on the private side? You know, we should be able to quickly get information on the interest rate and the repayment terms on the federal side right now. That probably is showing as a 0% if those are qualifying under the administrative forbearance. But I love — Kelly, I talked with a couple actually just the other night who when I asked them about their student loans, you know, it was very precise. They had all the information. “I’ve got three federal loans, I’ve got one private loan.” And it was to the penny of the outstanding balance, what they had. And I loved the intentionality of hey, I don’t like the number. I don’t like that it’s $194,000. But I understand that in order to put a plan together and to be able to evaluate the options and to be able to know what we can afford inside the budget, I’ve got to understand what we’re working with first and make sure that we have all the details. Step No. 1 is that inventory. And we’re going to link in the show notes to the links that Kelly mentioned on the federal side and the private side. So the federal side, she mentioned studentloans.gov will redirect to studentaid.gov. And then on the private side, running the credit report at annualcreditreport.com. Kelly, after the inventory, you alluded to the second step, which I think is really important is what can the budget afford? And when I teach this topic of student loan repayment, that’s often something I try to walk folks through is, hey, let’s make sure we know what the budget looks like. And as we’ve said many, many times on this show, student loans, as big as they are for many pharmacists, student loans are one piece of the puzzle. So we’ve got to understand what else is going on, what other expenses are out there, what other goals are out there, so that we can determine what that budget can afford. And if we decide to do a more aggressive repayment path, what does that mean for achieving other goals? If we decide to do something like a forgiveness path or more extended path, what does that mean for achieving other goals and really looking across the financial plan? And so we’ve got a budget template for folks that want to get started or update that budget. If you go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/budget, you can get a copy of that. And so Step. No. 1 is inventory, Step No. 2 is really looking at what the budget can afford, Step No. 3, Kelly, is probably the most confusing, the most difficult, but the most important part, which is understanding the options. And unfortunately, the hand we have been dealt as borrowers of student loans I would argue is more complex than it probably needs to be. Separate topic for a separate day. But talk to us about understanding repayment options, something you work often with our clients about, and just the magnitude of this decision.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Well, right. I mean, once you’re on studentaid.gov and you’re plugging in some data, I mean, you’re going to get a lot of information back about these repayment options, especially on the federal side. I mean, and they, again, range significantly. So even that date you took out the loan can have a significant impact on what options are available. So we have income-driven repayment options, which we have two that we usually recommend or work with in PAYE and RePAYE. Of course we have standard repayment as well, which is usually that 10-year term, which is a fixed payment amount, does not vary with income. We don’t lean towards extended or graduate options, just because they really perpetuate the length of time that it takes to repay the loan and often, you know, with pretty high interest paid in the process. So income-driven is usually the area where we’re operating in and also that standard repayment if we’re not refinancing. And again, just understanding like the date you took out the loan, you’re right that 0% is kind of the default on all of the data, which is hard. Like we were taking out loans when we were 18, 20. It’s not usually the ideal time for being detail-oriented about this type of information. So we can take a look at the dates the loans were taken out in the federal system and see what the interest rate was that year. But it’s a lot — it’s a lot of nuance for sure.

Tim Ulbrich: And then we’ve got, you know, on the federal side, you mentioned the variety of options. To make it a little bit more complicated, we’ve then got the private option. And we’re going to come back to talking about some common questions that we get around refinancing. I do — without going too far down the rabbit hole because we have talked about it extensively on the podcast, most recently on Episode 214, I interviewed a pharmacist who had $127,000 that was forgiven through the Public Service Loan Forgiveness. And so we’ve talked in detail about PSLF, non-PSLF, but I think it’s worth talking about again just briefly in the context as we look at the end of this administrative forbearance. So Kelly, quick dive, I don’t want folks to hear this and think, oh, I’ve got it with PSLF and non-PSLF, certainly more complicated than what we’re going to discuss briefly — but quick dive into PSLF, non-PSLF, what they are, and the main differences between the two of them.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely. And I mean, I think there are still questions. Like it has improved our level of information, but the PSLF rules are very specific. You do need to work for the right type of employer in a nonprofit setting, and you can check an EIN number now in some of the PSLF tools on studentloans.gov, which is helpful. You do need to be in the right kind of loan. So we still see that as a little bit of a problem at times. Like it does need to be in a direct type of loan. So if we see FELL loans, we see HPL loans, we see Perkins, those don’t automatically line up to qualify. And that’s where some of the confusion still exists. You do have to be in the right repayment plan. So in income-driven repayment, there are some nuances with standard repayment that require a little bit of conversation if you’re in standard. You have to make the right amount of payments. It’s 120. And you do need the documentation. So as FedLoan servicer changes to a new servicer, this is an area that we are focusing on and just reminding borrowers to make sure that they have their data documented. Go onto FedLoan, take a screengrab of where your cumulative payments are. Of course the best part is it’s a tax-free situation. In contrast, the non-PSLF forgiveness is a longer time period. So instead of being 10 years, it’s 20-25 years. 20 or 25 depends on some nuances with grad loans and the type of repayment plan that you’re in. And again, it doesn’t matter if you work for a nonprofit. You can have any employer to qualify for non-PSLF forgiveness. It really is based more on the amount of loans compared to income for that program. And then there is a tax consequence at the end. I think that tax consequence is one of the things that maybe will continue to be evaluated by the current presidential administration, like are we keeping that? Are we not keeping that? It would have an impact on people in that program. So yeah, there’s some pretty significant differences between those two programs.

Tim Ulbrich: Kelly, when I talk with folks about non-PSLF and the way I describe these is, you know, PSLF I think is a little bit better known by folks just because it’s gotten so much press and attention, although maybe not the best press. But it feels like folks are more aware and educated. I describe non-PSLF as the lesser-known forgiveness option in the federal system. And I think when I see folks’ reaction, there’s kind of this range of emotion from, ‘Oh my gosh, 20-25 years, like I’ve got a tax bill known as the tax bomb at the end of this, like who in the world would do this?’ Right? And then you start to talk a little bit about, OK, well, depending on the debt load, depending on some of the strategies around this, depending on if we think about saving for that tax bomb, maybe it’s not as overwhelming as it can seem. But certainly that’s a long period of time and, right, there’s some complexities here with the tax piece. So in your conversations with clients at YFP Planning, like does this have a role? How often does this come up? And are folks, you know, worried about some of those things that I just raised in terms of that tax piece as well as the timeline?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Yes. I mean, that is a long time to be, you know, in a repayment strategy. So right, we do do an analysis to see like what do the numbers look like? Often, these decisions are very emotional. 20-25 years is a long time. So we try to refocus on the factual components like what does the actual repayment look like? Like how does the payment amount per month compare if you refinance or accelerate a repayment? What is the overall forgiven amount? Sometimes, that number is quite compelling. Like if you are seeing, you know, six-figure digits of what’s forgiven, then we really do have to see like is that a viable option, despite the fact that it can be a little overwhelming to think of a 20-year time span. So yeah, we do carefully look at really all that factual data and then try to talk through the emotions behind it and what it means in terms of other things that you might be able to achieve in that timeframe. Sometimes it does make it much easier to buy your first home, to pay off something else, to be able to meet your monthly budget. Sometimes accelerating repayment is not affordable.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is a good reminder of — and many folks that I’ve talked with I can sense that sometimes, the overwhelming feeling, beyond just the number of the amount of debt they have, is that nagging feeling of like, I know there’s so many options out there, and I’m not sure I understand the differences between them and a desire to feel confident in that understanding and then making a decision that you know has evaluated other parts of the financial plan is ultimately best for their individual situation. And I want folks to not underestimate how important that feeling can be, especially with momentum and the rest of the financial plan, to confidently choose the repayment option that you know has been evaluated and is really best for your personal situation and to hopefully feel empowered and educated throughout that process as well. So Kelly, on the private side, refinancing is a topic that we talk about often on this show. It’s one of the most common questions that I get in terms of should I or should I not refinance? What should I look for in a lender? You know, what are some of the considerations in the refinance process? And I want to hit some of that because I think there’s probably many folks that are listening that maybe refinanced before the pandemic and have been excluded from this administrative forbearance or folks that have delayed refinancing and are wondering like, when might I pull that trigger? You know, thinking about what might or might not happen in interest rates. And so I suspect the conversation around refinancing is going to heat up as we saw the activity around refinancing really at historic levels before the pandemic hit back in January and February of 2020. So first of all, Kelly, what is refinancing? Give us the definition.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely. And it is — the two terms consolidation and refinance are very different. They’re used interchangeably, which is not quite right. So you know, as opposed to consolidation, which is taking federal loans for convenience or to be in a position to be in income-driven repayment or to qualify for forgiveness, consolidation is taking like a bunch of federal loans and putting them into like one or two subsidized or unsubsidized. So still federal, interest rate really is not impacted. It definitely doesn’t lower the rate. It may open up other opportunities for different federal programs. Refinance is either taking your federal loans and moving them into the private sector, which is a one-way transaction. Like once you’ve moved into private, that’s it. Or you have existing private loans and you refinance them into other private loans. So very different, very different what is happening there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think folks are likely somewhat in this holding pattern, right? I think in terms of, as I alluded to just a couple minutes ago, like hey, I think refinancing is the play or perhaps they’ve evaluated that, but what do I do? We’ve got several months left of administrative forbearance, rates may or may not go up, there’s offers that are out there that might help minimize some of that concern. But like what might I be giving up as well? And I think that’s one of the other questions and considerations folks need to be thinking about is what is different? So it’s not identical from the federal side to the private side with refinancing. Important note here is that every private lender can be a little bit different. So you know, we’re generalizing as we’ve put them together. But what are some of those main differences or things that folks need to be looking for as they consider what might be different from what they have in the federal system versus what they’re pursuing in the private market?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: In order to really evaluate a refinance, usually the primary objective to refinance is interest rate. So if you can get a better interest rate, that can be a compelling reason to refinance. But you’re absolutely right that there are tradeoffs to doing that. So you know, high level, I think there is a little of FOMO, like ‘Oh my gosh, interest rates are low. Are they going to go up in the next week?’ And then this becomes not a viable strategy. We have been monitoring interest rates throughout the summer, and they’ve been pretty steady. Like we’ve even seen them go down a little bit and kind of back up a bit, but pretty steady. We have seen some interesting programs or offers from private lenders where they kind of offer this 0% bridge. That was happening for a bit. In general, you know, the couple big things are with the federal loans, we have seen the protections in action. Like we know there is a very tangible like ah, that is what a federal protection means because of the CARES Act. In general, you know, will the loans be discharged? That’s a big question if something happens to someone. In the federal loan program, they are discharged for death and for disability as well. On the private side, it really depends on the lender. So that is something if we’re working with a client who’s considering a refinance, we are looking at the fine print to see what the discharge status would be. In terms of, you know, can I pay extra towards a refinanced loan or even a federal loan, the answer is usually yes in both cases where you can accelerate some repayment if that’s the appropriate strategy to take. But in general, we don’t have income-driven repayment on that refinance side. So if your income goes down, which you know, is something we hope doesn’t happen to our listeners but occasionally it does either by choice or not by choice, you know, is a job opportunity amazing and you’re willing to take a slight pay decrease? In the federal program, you can provide documentation that your income has gone down and have that income-driven repayment re-evaluated and lowered. That’s not a feature of a private loan system. So the payment is what it is.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think you articulated well there why it’s so important that folks are running the numbers, right? You mentioned the primary goal is to effectively lower the interest rate. And for many folks, that savings can be significant. If you’re talking about $150,000-$200,000+ of debt and you’re seeing a spread of 1-3%, whatever it might be, on interest rates depending on their personal situation, like that math adds up. So what I encourage folks is run the math but don’t stop there, right? Be thinking about these other things. You mentioned some tangible examples we have seen are the benefits of the federal program, the CARES Act being one. Just last week or it might have been the week before, the announcement from the Department of Education about over $5 billion being allocated to those that have a total or permanent disability in terms of loan forgiveness. So again, another tangible benefit and them improving the ease of that forgiveness process for those that have a total and permanent disability. So there are differences, and the savings may be there and often that may make sense, but just make sure you’re also considering some of these other factors as well. So we have I think outlined fairly well that navigating student loan repayment certainly on your own given the factors that we’ve discussed can feel overwhelming. I’ve been there, and I think aside from exit counseling that folks get, there really isn’t a whole lot of assistance in figuring out which repayment option is going to be best for your personal situation. And therefore, folks might get defaulted into the standard 10-year repayment plan or wonder, am I in the best repayment plan for my personal situation? And that is why we developed an offer a custom one-on-one student loan analysis. In this service, the goal is that we’re working one-on-one with you to lay out all your options so that you can confidently choose a repayment plan that hopefully will save you the most money and that ultimately aligns with other financial goals. And so in doing this, you’ll work with one of our YFP Planning Certified Financial Planners to inventory your loans, both federal and private, evaluate eligible repayment options, including the ones we’ve discussed here today, student loan forgiveness, income-driven repayment, private refinancing, and then ultimately try to determine what that best repayment strategy is for your situation. So Kelly, you are the lead for us on conducting these one-on-one student loan analyses. I know it’s something you also do frequently with clients of YFP Planning that are participating in our comprehensive planning services. So talk to us a little bit more about this service, the student loan analysis, and what folks can expect.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Well, especially now, as there are so many unknowns, we do struggle with like what is the next best step? And I think we do — I hope — help clients get some clarity. Like sometimes there are options and knowns beyond what we think are available. So I’d say one of the biggest objectives of doing the analysis is putting confidence in a next step. So this is the information we have available. So I think it is an ideal option for any borrower who wants to have a strategy in place so that they can make other good decisions about the rest of their financial plan. So it is an ideal opportunity to build some confidence and to say like, ‘OK, here are my various options.’ You know, we look at within the confines of the federal program what the options are in terms of income-driven repayment, which payment plan might be best, do a comparable with refinancing, look at non-PSLF forgiveness, and really put out the facts of these are the options that are available and help talk through what is best for that individual client and that household. It is not ideal for folks who have already refinanced everything into the private sector because already, the options are significantly more limited. You’re in the private sector, you could potentially refinance again for a lower rate — and I think that is a question we get a fair amount, like can I refinance again? It is different from a home mortgage refi. The process is a little bit different. It does have a credit component, though. You know, you are getting a hard credit check if you refinance. So that can have an impact, but you know, there’s not closing costs. It is a little different. So yeah, you know, if you can get a better rate, it’s certainly worth looking into. But for those clients, I feel like we best help people who still have some federal and are deciding like what is that next best step.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I agree, Kelly. I think for — you mentioned, you know, the service is not necessarily for everyone. So folks that have already refinanced and because there is less options at that point — you mentioned it is a one-way street earlier. But for many folks I suspect who are, ‘Hey, I’ve still got federal loans. I’m wondering about forgiveness, PSLF or non-PSLF,’ or those that do think PSLF is the path forward, do I have all my ducks in a row? What might be some of the strategies or things that I’m thinking about for optimizing that strategy? Or if I’m not pursuing Public Service Loan Forgiveness, does non-PSLF forgiveness make sense if I work for a non-qualifying employer? Or might I evaluate that refinancing? And how do I do some of that analysis and consider some of the things one might be giving up by making that move from the federal to the private. And so for folks listening, if you’re ready to get help in mapping out your plan, I think now is a great time as we, again, head into this home stretch on the last several months before that administrative forbearance ends, you can go over to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/SLA, where you can get more information about the service, get a little bit more information about Kelly, what’s included in the service, what the service costs, and then you can book that right there as well and get on Kelly’s calendar. Again, that’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/SLA. Kelly, really appreciate your time and your expertise and the contribution that you made to the community on the show today.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Thank you. I’m excited for listeners to really feel like they can make that forward progress and have some confidence in a decision. So I know sometimes, especially during the last two years, we have that feeling of being in a little bit of a holding pattern. But use the time wisely. Prepared is a strategy. So never underestimate the opportunity of having those ducks in a row.

Tim Ulbrich: Great advice. And certainly last but not least, if you’ve been listening to the show for a while and you like what you’ve heard, please do us a favor. If you could leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show, that would help other pharmacy professionals find this show. And if you have a question that you would like us to answer or feature on an upcoming episode, you can reach out to us at [email protected]. Have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 219: How to Negotiate Your Salary and Benefits as a Pharmacist

Posted on September 2, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How to Negotiate Your Salary and Benefits as a Pharmacist

Alex Barker talks about why pharmacists should negotiate their salary and benefits, benefits of negotiation, and two practical negotiation tips.

About Today’s Guest

Alex Barker helps pharmacists create fulfilling careers and lives. For a time, he was a burned-out clinical pharmacy specialist. Now, he is the Founder and Head Coach at TheHappyPharmD.com where, alongside his team, he creates classes to help over 750 pharmacists find and create new career paths. The Happy PharmD’s goal is to help 500 pharmacists transition into new jobs by January 1st, 2022.

He recently published the book Indispensable: The Prescription for a Fulfilling Pharmacy Career. When he’s not working with pharmacists, he spends time with his wife, Megan, and two lovely girls, Izzie and Addie.

Summary

Alex Barker, the Founder of The Happy PharmD, is back on the show discussing salary and benefits negotiation. He talks about why pharmacists should negotiate their salary and benefits, the benefits of negotiation, and two specific tips that you can use when having those difficult conversations with your supervisor. Alex also shares some insight from his e-book, “A Pharmacist’s Guide to Salary and Benefit Negotiation.”

Through the discussion, Alex breaks down the four benefits of negotiating. Your salary determines your future. Your salary can control, to some extent, when you retire. Your benefits depend on negotiation. Lastly, your salary now affects salary negotiations at future jobs.

Alex walks through some of the eight steps for negotiating salary and benefits listed in the guide. Pharmacists should do their research and document it. Research salary and benefits internally, externally, regionally, and for specific skills. Alex also suggests that pharmacists discuss compensation after the offer is made, and once you receive the offer, you do not have to act right away. Alex shares a typical response for negotiating a higher salary. In his example, the candidate expresses thanks to the hiring manager for the offer then takes some time to reflect. With some time to evaluate, you will be better able to discuss salary and benefits that you feel you are worth, based on your experience and the value that you add to the company.

In closing, Tim Ulbrich shares two real-life examples from the YFP Facebook Group, and Alex provides his advice and guidance for each.

Mentioned on the Show

YFP Planning: Financial Planning for Pharmacists
Book a free Discovery Call with YFP Planning
Get Your Free Copy of A Pharmacist’s Guide to Salary and Benefit Negotiation by Email: [email protected]
YFP 205: Current State of the Pharmacy Job Market
U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Occupational Outlook Handbook: Pharmacists
Join the YFP Facebook Group
The Happy PharmD
Glassdoor
Indeed
Mercer Salary Surveys & Pay Data
Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as if Your Life Depended on It by Chris Voss
YFP 166: Why Negotiation is an Important Part of Your Financial Plan

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Alex, welcome back to the show.

Alex Barker: Tim, it’s always a joy being with you, buddy. Thanks for having me again.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Glad to have you back as this time, we’re going to dig into salary, negotiation, as well as other things to negotiate beyond salary. But this is a good segue from our last conversation on Episode 205, not that long ago, where we talked about the pharmacy job market and considering the current state of the market, which we’ve talked about before, Alex, the Bureau of Labor Statistics projecting a decrease of about 10,000 pharmacist positions between 2019-2029. Some folks may hear that data point, may have listened to our previous conversation and be thinking, negotiation? What negotiation? Is that even possible? So let’s start there, Alex. Why should someone listening, you know, resist the urge to throw their hands up and say, ‘Not worth trying,’ right, considering the supply and demand changes that we’ve been seeing over the last several years. Is this even a relevant topic?

Alex Barker: I think it is. We put a post the other — a few months ago now on LinkedIn asking, ‘Do you feel comfortable negotiating your role, salary, or benefits?’ And obviously it was just geared at pharmacists. Vast majority of people said, ‘Absolutely not. No way.’ And I don’t think I blame them. You know, I’m actually working on as of this recording, we’re working on our Quarter 2 job market report. And things have kind of taken a downward turn, and I think it’s because of the COVID pandemic kind of wrapping up the hiring sequence as I think we all were predicting. And I think the tone of the market, particularly with newer grads and students is, ‘I’ll just take anything. Please just give me anything.’ And you know, you’ve been at a couple of universities, you’ve taught at different places. I don’t believe salary negotiation is taught.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s correct.

Alex Barker: Yeah. And there’s also this mindset of a residency is a major career pathway. And that role is non-negotiable in most cases. Most people I think enter the market now with this expectation of the market’s tough, so I’m just going to take whatever I can get. And whatever it is, I’m going to be happy because I’ll be able to pay off my loans, I’ll not be indebted, I don’t have to claim bankruptcy, you know, whatever the worst possible case scenario people go through in their minds. Why is negotiating important? It’s because you have value. And the pharmacy market is — yes, it’s in flux. But you have a doctorate or the equivalent of a doctorate for those BS pharms listening. And you are going to provide a lot of value to a company when you are offered a job. And you should be able to negotiate for the things that you want. And recognize as well that this is a long-term game. This is not, ‘I need to demand for the things that I want.’ Having this discussion in the beginning when you’re offered a position is laying the seeds for the things that you want for your career in the future.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. That’s right. Alex, I think that’s spot-on, right? You’re laying the seeds for what lies ahead, you’re initiating some of this conversation, the expectations. And we’re going to talk about other reasons and benefits to negotiation. Alex, I remember — I’m going to date myself a little bit here but 2008, graduated from pharmacy school, took a residency position, which as you mentioned, was non-negotiable, for a whopping $31,000. And thankfully, salaries have come up a little bit since then in residency, although not a whole lot. And then took that first position for an even $100,000. And it’s interesting, you know, here, we’re talking about 2021. You mentioned the Q2 report coming out here soon, which is showing that continued trend. Well, this was a different market in 2009. And I did have leverage to negotiate. But I didn’t know that. I wasn’t comfortable with that. I didn’t have the school, I didn’t have the skills, I didn’t have the tools, I didn’t have the mentorship, right? And I was excited. It was the first offer. The answer is yes. But as we’ll talk about here in a moment, remember, this is the starting point. And this is so important. It’s not just about the dollars. It could be benefits, it could be some of the confidence, the self-worth, the positioning, the value that you’re bringing to the organization. So some of these I think are very tangible monetary benefits and some of them may not be tangible monetary but very important, in some cases more important. Alex, you mentioned the LinkedIn post, right, and the answer was, ‘No, like I’m not comfortable.’ And I think this topic is one that folks either say, ‘You know what, I’m not comfortable.’ Maybe it makes folks a little bit uneasy. Maybe they squirm when they think about that conversation with their supervisor. It could be awkward, it could be overwhelming. Why is that the case? Is this unique to pharmacy? Or is this just something overall? Like we’re not comfortable, fear of rejection, lack of self-confidence, like what’s the why behind that?

Alex Barker: All of the above, I think. In pharmacy in particular, if you were to do an analysis of our personality as a profession, we would be the people that like avoiding conflict. We would like to be the people who everyone’s on the same team, we’re all working together towards the same goal. And so conflict is not something we’re typically taught in our education, conflict resolution, conflict management. But by and large, I think in most western societies, honestly, our value is placed on a dollar amount. And getting told that you make a certain amount is a reflection of self-worth and to change that, to think about negotiating for that self-worth when you may not feel like you are worth that, is a problem. So if you don’t feel confident in your ability to do that, then you’re probably not going to take actions towards that end. In fact, there’s quite a bit of growing research on this concept called professional identity in pharmacy in that pharmacists have a weak professional identity, which essentially means that we don’t tie ourselves strongly to the identity of a pharmacist. This has all sorts of consequences for our profession. One of the main ones — don’t want to deviate too much on this — but is the fact that our role is changing. You know, pharmacy, we’re trying to change our perception of who we are and what we do. And unfortunately, this just creates confusion for us as pharmacists. What do we do? What is our value? Are we just dispensing automatons? Or are we prescribers? We don’t know. And because we don’t know, that creates a lack of confidence in what we do. And that lack of confidence translates into, again, what we kind of talked about earlier, we’ll just take whatever we can get. I can relate to your story, by the way. I did the same exact thing. I remember the phone call. I was working a clinic, they gave me the call, and they said, “We’d like to offer you the position.” “Oh! Well, OK. Great.”

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Alex Barker: Yeah, tell me more. “Well, it’s $115,000 a year.” And dead silence on my end. “Oh, yeah. Of course.” You know? I’ll take three times my salary. OK, what’s next?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Alex Barker: It’s so foolish, but if you’re not informed, if you’re not trained to kind of handle that situation, why wouldn’t you take that?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think, you know, one of the thoughts that comes to mind, Alex, as you were just talking about — of course we’re overgeneralizing — but when we talk about some of the personality of a pharmacist or folks that may not be comfortable negotiating, I would have put myself in that bucket, especially early in my career. I think we need to be careful that we’re not pursuing an outcome of avoiding conflict or avoiding an uncomfortable conversation because while that may feel OK in the moment that you don’t have to be in that uncomfortable conversation, if it leads to resentment down the road or you feel like you’re undervalued, that can have significant ramifications, right? We’re not just talking anymore about dollars and am I making a fair market value? But do I feel valued as a part of this organization and do I feel like I’m advocating for myself? I think that’s a part of negotiation that often gets overlooked for a variety of reasons of which we probably all individually struggle with for different reasons of which is a different discussion but I think is important that we really, honestly evaluate and reflect of why might we be avoiding this conversation? What’s behind that, right? Let’s peel back the layers of the onion a little bit to inquire further. Alex, so your guide, “A Pharmacist’s Guide to Salary and Benefit Negotiation,” and folks that are interested in receiving that guide, 29-page e-guide that you put together, great resource — we’re going to hit some of the high points here on this episode, certainly not go into the full details of that — folks can get a copy of that for free by sending an email to [email protected]. Again, that’s [email protected]. Let him know you listened to this episode, get a copy of that. One of the things you start out with, Alex, is four benefits of negotiating. I think some of these are obvious but some maybe not as obvious. And we’ve alluded to a couple of these. But talk to us about what are these benefits of negotiating, laying the groundwork for why we think this is important before we get into the strategy.

Alex Barker: Yeah. You’re going to love them because you’re Mr. Money Man. So your salary, it determines future raises. Right?

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Alex Barker: If you start off at $100,000 versus $110,000, every raise you get thereafter will be more if you are at $110,000. This is obvious. But over time —

Tim Ulbrich: Compound effects.

Alex Barker: Exactly.

Tim Ulbrich: Compound effect of that.

Alex Barker: Yeah. It’s huge. You know, I remember starting that job at $115,000. And I think the year before I quit, it rose to $127,000. Now I worked at a very bureaucratic, very rule-driven, union-driven organization. So this may not be as negotiable in terms of salary as other organizations. But whatever you start with often determines the future. So if you’re thinking about a career transition, if it’s your first job, you need to understand you have to negotiate — you should negotiate because it’s going to determine what you get paid in the future. Depending on whatever strategy you take, the next reason is that your salary often determines when you retire. You know, I know you’ve talked about different retirement strategies on your podcast a lot. I’m in your community on Facebook and I see a few people wanting to follow the FIRE movement. So this may not be relevant, depending on how I guess driven you are to retire early versus later. But obviously a higher salary, if you decide early on in your career to save the majority of that, can help you retire earlier if you choose to. And one of the things that I think most people look at — because when you think about I guess like the salary aspect of pharmacy, there’s a lot of hullabaloo about it. I polled 500 people on LinkedIn, and over 76% I think said that they think salaries are decreasing. Now the data is actually contrary to that. The data actually suggests there’s a very small increase, if not over time flattening, of our salary. But the rumors obviously are more popular than data. A lot of people focus on it, but benefits matter too. If you don’t negotiate for those benefits, you could be missing out on some really just life-changing and lifestyle things. One of the best things I ever did during my pharmacist career working as a clinician was getting the change to the four-day work week.

Tim Ulbrich: I remember you doing that.

Alex Barker: Yeah, back when you and I both were working day jobs.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I couldn’t believe you pulled that off, actually, because you know, within the organization — that’s challenging if there’s not precedent for it.

Alex Barker: Absolutely. Yeah, so just full disclosure, I used to work at the Veteran Affairs. I don’t represent them obviously now. Never did, really, before online. But I loved the three-day work week. And it just felt like even though the days were longer, yes, and I did miss out on quality time in the evening with my kids, that three-day weekend was just so perfect. It’s so wonderful. Negotiating for your benefits can just make a huge lifestyle difference. And I know for me personally, when I had that, it made me significantly happier about what I was doing at my day job. And then lastly, the main reason why you want to do this is that this job that you take, whatever it is, it will probably not be your last and final job. All trends right now point to people changing jobs more frequently than ever before.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Alex Barker: And whatever salary you end up taking at this next job likely will influence the next job salary that you take because you want to use that, whatever your previous salary was, as evidence for your value, the contributions you make at your company, and you can use that as fodder for your next salary negotiation.

Tim Ulbrich: And Alex, so good. So you talked about four different things there: your salary determines your future, your salary determines when you retire, your benefits can depend on it, and then it affects salary negotiations at future jobs. And you know, I’m not going to get out the nerdy investment calculator, but I’ve talked about on the show before just one really tangible example beyond what this means for the income that’s coming into your bank account after taxes and all that. You know, take a simple employer match on a retirement account, right? If you’re making $110,000 because you’ve gone through a negotiation or $120,000 instead of $100,000 or $105,000, whatever that difference would be, it may not seem large. But that additional match on that benefit, you know, is going to have a compound — significant compound effect over time. And that doesn’t even account for your point, which is a really good one, you know, if you’re going to be changing jobs, which likely you’re going to be doing many times throughout your career, often your current position is the jumping point for that next position. And you’ve got typically pretty good leverage there if that organization really wants you in that role. And I’ve got a really tangible example of this when I made the transition from Northeast Ohio Medical University to my faculty role to The Ohio State University College of Pharmacy and overseeing the Master’s program in health systems pharmacy administration. At that time, I really was enjoying my role at NEOMed. I loved what I was doing. Interesting opportunity came up at Ohio State, love that institution, the people that work there. The opportunity was there, but there wasn’t really that pressing need to make that move. And you know, that’s probably one of the better strategies of negotiation is if there’s a recruitment that’s happening and you don’t necessarily have that need, obviously you’ve got some leverage. But using current position and salary obviously becomes — for me, it was and it becomes for many people — that jumping point to that new role. So it’s not just the first offer that you take that has the implications. For those that are listening, maybe they started a position five, six, seven years ago and have seen marginal increases in their salary that probably haven’t kept up with inflation, if they’re thinking ahead to that next jump, like it’s not just at the job offer. You can also negotiate while you’re along the way. And you should be having those conversations, right?

Alex Barker: Absolutely. You know, just on a quick point there, one of the reasons why I feel like a lot of people can’t negotiate or feel like they can’t is something you said previously. When they offer you the job, they want you. It means that they don’t want other people. They’ve made decisions collectively as an organization to give you the job, not someone else. This may not be true for every organization. You know, there may be some devious nature to some offers, which I know there are those kind of practices. But in general, major organizations in particular, when they give you that offer, when they say, “We want to offer you the position doing this and it’s for this much,” that means this is an offer to you, and this is where a lot of your practice negotiation strategy will come into play where you’re able to wrestle with that, hopefully it’s an offer that you love so there’s not a lot of conflict. But if you’re negotiating and what you’re asking for is reasonable, they’re going to work with you because they’ve already made the decision to commit to you. I have not heard horror stories nor actually does any research indicate that negotiation for the offer more often than not ends in the person’s offer being terminated. What happens actually more often is that offers are made to pharmacists and for whatever reason, budgetary restraints most commonly happen where the job is let through. It is not because of negotiations.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I agree. And I’ve been on the other side of these conversations, Alex, in several instances. And even if, even if there’s not a huge gap in preference between candidate 1 and 2, what often happens is when that offer goes out, that organization starts to envision that person in that role and what they bring to the table, right? So they’re starting to affirm the strengths that person is bringing, the opportunities that they’re bringing, and they’re starting to see that person in that role. And there’s a risk to the organization — so if I’m offering you a position, Alex, I’m waiting for you to hear back and let’s say you try to negotiate. And if I’m the employer and I’m like, “No, no, no, we’re going to make an offer to the second person. Just we can’t budget-wise do it,” like unless that number is way out in left field, like there’s a risk I now lose both of my candidates as the employer end. So flip the script. I think this is sometimes where we’ve got a lot of self-confidence challenge and issues and obviously this is a very individualized, you know, assessment and hopefully where some good mentorship can provide value, what do you bring to the table, why are you unique for that position, how are you different from other candidates, but really great advice there. Alex, in the guide, I think it’s in Chapter 3, you start off by talking about mindset and the connection between mindset and negotiating. And you write that your strategy doesn’t just start at the negotiation table. It starts with your mindset right now. What do you mean by that?

Alex Barker: Well I think the quote that I put at the beginning of the chapter fits it perfectly. If you fail to plan, you are planning to fail. You know, a lot of people think the biggest struggle in the process of getting a new job is the application, the interview. And most people put the majority of their effort when looking for a new career in those things. And the idea of success, the idea of getting an offer and negotiations often doesn’t even come into play when making this consideration. And so in most cases from what we’ve learned from talking with thousands of pharmacists is they don’t even plan for this. There’s a lot of pessimism about our job market, there’s a lot of pretty negative analysis and posts about it, and so why would you plan for success? In their mind, I think. And if that’s the case, you know, whether you think you’re right or wrong, you’re probably right. I was thinking as you were talking about this guide, when I first made it, I did a ton of research. Not only did I help people increase their offers by thousands of dollars, but I spoke with negotiation experts. I interviewed them. I talked with hiring managers, executives, I talked to them about this issue, and I talked with them about what the best practices were, and I gathered up all this research and information. And I thought, this is really valuable, this guide. And I remember thinking, OK, well, I’m looking to see what other businesspeople are doing out there about negotiation courses, books. And I thought, I could sell this. I could legitimately sell it. And it did make a few sales but nothing near where what I had hoped. And I just learned that after talking with people and presenting this, people were like, why would I pay for this? I’m not going to be able to negotiate anything. So I was like, what? Like, there’s such a low level of mindset around this issue that people aren’t even believing that this is possible.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Alex Barker: So now we just, hey, we just give it away for free because we have multiple reports of people using this guide, following the steps, and getting thousands of dollars more from the initial offer, which of course compounds over time. But this is why I feel like mindset is so important, it’s why I’m hoping that people kind of see the stories that we’ve posted online to social media and say, “OK, other people are doing it. Maybe it’s possible for me.”

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I think you do a nice job, Alex, in the resource, which is really valuable and I hope people will take a look at it, where you give some tangible strategies, eight steps to negotiate your salary and benefits. And we’re not going to talk through all eight of those. I want to hit just a few of them that I think folks can walk away with some very specific ideas and perhaps skills that they can take to those conversations that they’re going to have with their supervisors. So let’s walk through a few of these. First, Alex, is document your salary and benefit research. Tell us more about this one.

Alex Barker: Absolutely. So if you don’t know what’s going on in the salary world in pharmacy, you’ve got to get up. We’ve got a guide on our website, it’s very thorough. I recommend you check it out. But you should be doing your research in really three main areas. Internal research, meaning looking at what your company is paying people, what published information they have. External research, seeing what other companies are paying. Specific skill research, so if you have something specific to your career, residency, certification. Those are easy examples. You should understand what value that trans — how that translates into into the market. The reason why you want to document these things is because when negotiating, you want hard evidence, proof of the value of what you’re going to do for that company. Because you can’t just say in the negotiation, “We want to give you” — let’s say the hiring manager says, “We want to hire you as a clinical pharmacy specialist managing this HIV clinic. And we want to pay you $115,000.” You could just say, “Absolutely. Yes. I’ll take anything. Just give me the job.” Or what you could do is do your research. So look in the city and state and look to see what is the average pharmacist pay for that kind of job? There are of course information on our website, TheHappyPharmD.com, but there’s plenty of other resources as well like GlassDoor, Indeed, Mercer Job Salary Report.

Tim Ulbrich: Some state associations do some of this too. Not all.

Alex Barker: Absolutely.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Alex Barker: Yeah. And with that, you’ll be able to tell easily like what is an average. What’s the median? What could you expect even before you are offered the position because it’s becoming less and less common now for job postings to say — particularly for professionals — what is the salary reach. You want to have that evidence so that when the offer comes, you’re able to gauge whether or not this is something that you would want. Also, if salary isn’t the thing for you, like let’s say $115,000 a year is an acceptable salary for what your life expectations are and let’s say that you know that on average, this position gets paid $120,000, well that’s $5,000 difference. You could negotiate for that. But you could also negotiate for other benefits. “Well, because I’m not getting what the average is, and the average is this, here’s what I would like to ask for in return.” This research is so critical because it can lay a solid foundation on what is true because the company cannot dispute these external resources.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Alex Barker: I mean, they can certainly say no. But they can’t dispute what evidence is collected.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, it’s not Alex’s made-up numbers, right? This is data. Yeah. I think too, Alex, the other thing I think about here is if I’m in a position let’s say I’m getting an offer for say $110,000 and I really think because of my research and because of x, y, and z, I really think that should be let’s say $118,000, right? And the answer is no. Now there’s some strategies for how you navigate that conversation and there’s very specific techniques that you talk about in the guide. “Never Split the Difference” is another great book that talks about some of those techniques where you’re really trying to get to that yes and it’s not just that initial no and how do you approach that. But let’s just say for the sake of this example the answer is no but you’re really interested in that position, you think it’s a good fit. I think one of the thoughts I have here is if I’m that candidate, my next follow-up is remember, we’re laying the foundation. You talked about that earlier. What can I do? Like what can I do over the next 6-12 months to get to $118,000, right? What are some of the goals that I can work towards? What are some of the opportunities? Because if I’m a hiring manager and I really like a candidate and they say, “What can I do to get to whatever that number is?” like that starts to really become the road map of the objectives for that individual and perhaps some even opportunities, depends on the organization of course, the company you work for, of what are some things that they might be able to do that either is or is not in their job description to be able to earn up to that income.

Alex Barker: Absolutely. Hopefully by that point, when the offer is given to you, you’ve asked the right questions in the interview to have a really good understanding of what the position is and where the company or the department, pharmacy department is going in particular. This is a great place for you to provide even more value during the negotiation process. One example that comes to mind was a client we worked with who was wanting to get into academia — no prior experience, no residency — and wanted to run a clinic, something that this person hadn’t done before. The offer came, and what was offered was a lot lower. And they based this on the idea that ‘Hey, you don’t have a residency, you’ve never done a position before.’ It was quite a pay cut for this person. So what this client did was brilliant. They knew that what this college was struggling with was getting new sites. This was a relatively newer school, and they were struggling with that aspect. And obviously, if you don’t have the number of rotations, you can’t get always accredited. It’s a huge problem. You can’t market your school as well, which is becoming increasingly important for colleges. So what this person was able to do was twofold. Because the offer came in, they were actually able to renegotiate their position to where they were doing more of the kind of work that this person enjoyed, which was doing more experiential education management and getting more involved in that department, talking with more people, getting more sites on board, with certain guarantees that they were able to negotiate for. And in turn, this meant less clinic time, which this person still loved. But she was a kind of pharmacist who enjoyed a large variety of tasks. So being able to negotiate in the moment, knowing the company’s priorities, being able to get more of what you want — and ultimately, she was able to negotiate a salary change as well — is a brilliant strategy. Don’t think that no means no.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Alex Barker: In this case. In this case alone.

Tim Ulbrich: Alex, that too is a good example of like understand your environment. You know, I believe negotiation can apply to everyone, but understand your environment and where you may have more flexibility and leverage. So that example, an experiential education individual, there is not seven of those at a college, right? There’s typically a director of experiential education. So if I’m the department chair, I’m the dean, and I working with that person, I have some more flexibility of which is true just in that environment overall. But through things like administrative stipends, through how we split time, through other things that I’m not as concerned with like I’ve got 10 people that are in the same role and I have to have them all within this range, right? Because obviously that’s something that an employer might be thinking about. So I think understanding your environment — and I would even point to that position, that’s a really hard position to both recruit and retain. It’s one of the hardest positions to retain in a college of pharmacy is an experiential director because of the challenges and the stress that can come with it. So an experiential director is listening out there, like you’ve got leverage, right? Understand the leverage that you have. So good stuff. Alex, I want to fast forward to the offer. And again, there’s lots more in the guide. You go through eight specific strategies, but one you talk about is the offer moment, right? So this is what we’ve been waiting for, the offer is on the table, we can react to something. Talk to us about some negotiation tips after receiving an offer that folks can consider employing in their own situation.

Alex Barker: Practice, practice, practice. Practice with your spouse if you’ve got one, practice with your parents, practice with a friend. Role play the event. This is by far the best advice I can give you. It isn’t hard because most people have had a job. Most people have gone through this experience. While probably the majority of your friends and even parents are not managers and have actually done this, you can put yourself in that situation and script your response. You do not need to accept right away would be my first encouragement. You don’t need to say absolutely yes, no, or even negotiate in this moment. For me, I’m a very emotional person and so having — making decision in an emotional state often leads to not the greatest results. Hence, both probably your and my first job offer. Right? “Oh yeah, I’ll take it 3x my salary! Of course! That’s a great thing!” That was a great moment, but making that decision in that moment may not reflect really where you want to take your career. So be willing to say, “Thank you for the offer. I’m so happy to be able to have the opportunity to work with you. But I want to think about this, I want to talk with my spouse, I want to review my research and make an informed decision.” Having another call is not unexpected for people because everything they share with you about the offer — and by the way, get more than just the salary. Make sure that you understand the benefits package, make sure you understand the demands, make sure that you understand what their goals are for you in this role.

Tim Ulbrich: What you’re saying yes to, understand that.

Alex Barker: Absolutely. I think everyone has had an experience where they took on a job and didn’t realize everything that they were going to be asked to do. In fact, every time I talk about the offer with people, I often kind of get that response of, what happens when the unexpected happens? Like they tell me that I’m managing this now and I’m doing this and I’m doing this when that wasn’t a part of the offer. Well, that’s a whole other discussion. And my final recommendation to you is even when the offer is better than what you expected, still hold back your yes and ask yourself, what do I really want? Take that time before and during the offer to really consider is this everything that I want? Or is there something more can I get? Heck, even if it’s just $500 for an education fund. Something as simple as that can just make that much better and it also can create a better relationship with the team that you’re working with.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think sometimes, Alex, you know, it’s monetary. Sometimes it’s things that are maybe not in the form of salary but could be professional development-related. It could be carved out time to work on certain initiatives or projects, for some folks it could be an administrative role that are pretty easy to create from the employer side. So you know, those are often, again, you’re setting up future opportunities and leverage and then there’s other areas you can get into like maybe they can’t — because of how that position is classified, maybe there’s limitations on salary for that position, but if you have something else like an administrative position, you’ve opened up like stipends and other things that can be different ways that they classify income. So there’s certainly some strategy here to be thinking about. But great wisdom in that recommendation of take some time to think about it, right? And express the gratitude of the offer. Express, you know, some of the interests that you have in the position. But I think that pause is incredibly important, not only to give yourself space to think about it but again, flip the script, right Alex? So if I’m hiring and I’ve got Alex applying and I’m like, ‘I’m really excited about what Alex can do for this organization,’ I’ve got the offer out there, I’m starting to envision Alex in that role. When Alex says, “Hey, Tim, really excited about the position, the company, the direction what you guys are going. I’m grateful for the offer. I really need 48 hours to think this through and really evaluate how this fits in with my goals and talk this over with my wife, think about it for our family, like now I want you more, right? Now I want you more because you’ve created that space and you’re opening up the door for me to expect a follow-up conversation. And I would encourage folks, like in that follow-up conversation, if there are things that you are genuinely excited about as well as maybe some reservations, concerns, or questions, articulating some of that, giving the space for them to talk, is going to even further open up that door for some of the negotiation. And you talk in the guide, Alex, about some strategies that folks can read up to learn more about the use of silence and mirroring and active listening and again, this is something that you can read and I think apply in practice certainly so that you’re ready for that situation. And Tim Baker and I also talked about this on Episode 166, about why negotiation is an important part of the financial plan. And we talked through some of those strategies as well. So again, folks, check out the guide. We just hit a couple of the high points. You can get a copy of that guide by sending an email to [email protected]. Again, “A Pharmacist’s Guide to Salary and Benefit Negotiation.” Alex, I want to wrap up our time with a couple of comments that we had from the Facebook group, in the YFP Facebook group. And I said, “Hey, I’m going to be recording with Alex, upcoming episode on salary negotiation, give me your thoughts.” And two really that stood out to me, one that I want to get your reaction on based on everything we just talked through, what are you hearing as why that might have been a successful negotiation and then the second one is someone who’s got some questions around some difficulties that they’re having with the negotiation process. So you up for that?

Alex Barker: Hopefully my responses are adequate. Let’s go for it.

Tim Ulbrich: Alright, here’s the first one. And this comes from someone that put in the YFP Facebook group says, “I”m a recent graduate who is hesitant to negotiate, but I’ve been with the same company for 5+ years and knew I owed it to myself to at least counter once I got the job offer to move to full-time staff pharmacist. I was able to get $250 more per hour on top of the initial offer and build a great relationship with my boss to help reach my future goals as a pharmacist. Biggest things I learned throughout this process: No. 1, it’s not offensive to ask for more. Know your worth. No. 2, the company already likes you, so don’t freak out about taking back that offer. You’re now trying to reach an agreement that works for both parties. And No. 3, my biggest selling point was that I would be saving the company time on training for the day-to-day things since I was a pharmacy tech and intern, so not having to reorient, re-onboard somebody in that role.” What are your thoughts to that, Alex?

Alex Barker: Super smart kid. I shouldn’t say kid. But just that simple having that belief that they’re worth that value and demonstrating that through evidence earned this person $5,000 more a year. You know, I don’t know how much prep this person did, and I’m sure it was stressful, as most people think negotiations are. But that little bit of effort earned him $5,000 more dollars that he would not have made had he not made the effort. I love the angle of him deepening that relationship with his manager.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Alex Barker: That’s the thing. As you were talking before this example, I was actually just thinking that this kind of feels like dating all over again or like the phase before dating where you’re like, ‘Ooh, does she like me?’ You know, and your hands touch for the first time. You’re like, oh my gosh, electric jolts go up yourself and you’re like, oh my gosh, this is so, so awesome. But you don’t know if they like you. There’s definitely a misconception of yeah, they like you. They want you. And if you’re able to demonstrate with evidence, with proof, and with a strong agreement commitment to what you’re going to do for them, then they’re more than willing to likely give you what your value is.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Alex Barker: And it would be great to teach that in pharmacy school. It would be great to say, “Here’s the value of what you bring. Here’s what — for example, one pharmacist, here’s what they’re able to produce economically for a business, hospital, community pharmacy, whatever,” so that you have an understanding of it isn’t like the company is just throwing money at you and not getting anything back, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Otherwise that wouldn’t make sense. The position wouldn’t be there.

Alex Barker: Right. And salaries wouldn’t be at where they’re at if a company wasn’t making money.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Alex Barker: So $5,000 in the grand scheme of things to the company is not a lot of money to keep someone happy and retained because the cost of retention is higher than probably what you think.

Tim Ulbrich: I was just going to say that, Alex. For anyone who’s listening and has worked with an organization for a period of time and know that you’re an awesome employee and ambassador of the organization, go do some research on the cost of retention and I think that will give you a lot of confidence and feeling comfortable of why and employer wants to keep a valued and key employee. It is significant, not only in the cost of time of retraining but what that means for the culture of the organization, the time that’s spent, all of those things. And it can be underestimated, as you mentioned. Alright, next one I have here is a little bit of a hey, help me out here, what should I do? So this comes, again, from the YFP Facebook group. It says, “I don’t negotiate for salary and benefits because my employer doesn’t really discuss compensation at all.”

Alex Barker: Yikes.

Tim Ulbrich: “There have been two times that I have asked for a raise because I had taken on more responsibilities, so someone else who had left, grew metsync, implement of vaccinations, other clinical services, started diabetes prevention program, etc., etc. Both times, the boss essentially said, ‘I’ll look into it.’” And goes on to share another example where boss was paying a company to do something that she had been working on and so asked, “Hey, what can I do to earn that money instead of us using that money to hire somebody externally?” That ended up of her getting some raise, not the full amount, and so the question here is how can one more effectively negotiate with someone who really doesn’t seem interested in wanting to have that conversation?

Alex Barker: Yuck. It sounds like this kind of manager is the person who sweeps problems under the rug and doesn’t want to handle conflict themselves. So that is definitely an uphill battle. I do — I sympathize with you. But here, I would say at the core of all of this, is actually a word that Tim, you used earlier: agreement. Employee is an at-will agreement between yourself and the company. You are not forced to work that job. You have the right, the choice, to make that decision. And agreements change over time. They have to because the market changes, demands change, and clearly, you — I’m assuming everything you’re saying here is true and obviously we only have one side of this story — but I’m assuming that you’ve been providing consistent value over time and you’ve had two attempts without success. So my old ID mentor used to tell me, “Two points don’t make a trend, but three do.” I think a third conversation is warranted. And I think you need to say with great certainty what your value is, what you’ve produced for the company, and what your expectations are moving forward, letting them know what you’re willing to decide if a decision isn’t made. You know, the whole ‘Let me think about it,’ or ‘Let me work on it,’ response kind of — it reminds me of my children asking me to play with them throughout the day as I work from home, you know? Like, “Dad, we want to play! Let’s play! Let’s play!” “Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’ll do it later. We’ll do it later.”

Tim Ulbrich: “We will. We will.” Yeah.

Alex Barker: And it pacifies them knowing that I’ll eventually get to it. And I do. At the end of the day, I do. I fulfill on my promise. I play with them. This person hasn’t fulfilled. And they’ve done that now twice. That’s evidence for you. Now, you need to be willing to come to a decision about what it is that you’re going to be doing should they not give you a raise. And this is hard because, you know, one of those decisions obviously is ‘I’m not going to work for you,’ or ‘I’m going to work less,’ or ‘I’m going to look for a new position.’ And you’re well within your rights to negotiate for that. There is nothing forcing you to continue working for this company. And you can point out very clearly that they have not fulfilled the request that you made previously for negotiating your salary. Hold yourself to that high standard and elevate them along with you. You know, this shouldn’t be a us v. them, right, kind of battle. It should be about hey, you’re on my side. And this is what’s happened. Here’s the value of what I think I’m worth. And how can we move forward? Before you start suggesting or demanding what your actions are, try to understand what the limitations are. Maybe they did look into it and they ran into a roadblock and they’re too afraid to tell you of what that roadblock is.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep. Yeah, and I think the lack of communication here probably — you know, we don’t know the full story — but probably can lead to resentment, just like it does in any relationship.

Alex Barker: Oh, sure.

Tim Ulbrich: Right? So I think, you know, even if the outcome isn’t desired, I think the conversation can be really valuable. This also feels — and Alex, I might be wrong — but as I look at this question again, this feels like maybe an independent environment when somebody talks about what they’ve done to grow programs, some MedSync, diabetes prevention, stepping in for another pharmacist. So back to my comment earlier about leverage, if I’m an independent owner and I have a key employee of which probably not only developed these programs but probably of which these programs depend upon to run and maybe the owner doesn’t even necessarily know how to continue them and they’ve had a good impact on the pharmacy for both patient care and bottom line, like understand the leverage, you know, that you have in this situation, not to abuse that but to understand what you have as you’re coming into the conversation to really show and communicate the value. Alex, great stuff, as always. Appreciate having you on the show again. I look forward to these episodes that we do every so often. And this one certainly didn’t disappoint for me. So thank you so much for taking the time. And again, to the listeners, make sure you get a free copy of “A Pharmacist’s Guide to Salary and Benefit Negotiation.” And you can get that by sending an email to [email protected]. Alex, thanks again.

Alex Barker: Thanks for having me.

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YFP 218: How Marina Created a Business in Clinical Herbalism

Posted on August 26, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How Marina Created a Business in Clinical Herbalism

Dr. Marina Buksov discusses her entrepreneurial journey in natural remedies and clinical herbalism.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Marina Buksov is a registered Doctor of Pharmacy, Health Coach, Clinical Herbalist, and lifelong learner of the Healing Arts. She is the creator of Build Your Holistic Herbal Practice course mentoring other healthcare professionals in clinical herbal as well as business skills. She is also a functional medicine pharmacist as part of PharmToTable telehealth platform.

Marina also offers educational webinars with Radicle Herbs and is a wellness writer for Jejune Magazine. Marina uses her multidisciplinary background to educate patients about the least invasive and most natural methods for healing the spirit-body-mind. Her truly holistic approach helps women embody the best versions of themselves and lovingly celebrate the skin they’re in.

When she is not studying, Marina likes to dance, paint, and tinker with various concoctions (tea blends, meals, DIY projects). She lives with her husband, toddler, and two mischievous kitties in NYC.

Summary

Dr. Marina Buksov, a registered pharmacist, Health Coach, Clinical Herbalist, and lifelong learner of the Healing Arts, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss her entrepreneurial journey. Marina reveals why she launched her brand and business, some lessons she learned along the way, and how her financial journey has intersected with her business goals.

Upon graduation from pharmacy school, Marina quickly realized that she didn’t feel truly passionate about any one particular area of pharmacy or traditional pharmacy career paths. After connecting with her mentor, she decided to explore alternative medicine. During this time, Marina started working in a Russian-style apothecary that specialized in herbs and supplements. Shortly after, Marina found her way into health coaching, incorporating her alternative medicine training and education from her retail pharmacy experience.

Marina advises other pharmacists who may experience that same sense of not belonging in the profession to explore a variety of areas of pharmacy, connect with mentors, and look for (or create) opportunities to find what and how you resonate with the pharmacy profession even as a practicing pharmacist. Along the way, mentors and coaches have played an integral part in Marina’s business, with financial planning and coaching guiding her ability to take risks with her business while also providing for her future.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Marina, welcome to the show.

Marina Buksov: Hi. Thanks so much, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich: I am really excited to dig into your entrepreneurial journey and start us off by telling us about your journey into becoming a pharmacist.

Marina Buksov: Sure. So my parents are actually both dual majors, you could say, in biology and chemistry. And so they kind of inspired me to go down this road. I always loved chemistry as well. It kind of came naturally to me, I guess because my dad was also a chemistry teacher, even though I was learning chemistry in English and he had learned it in Russian. So we kind of didn’t speak the same language, even though it’s a science. I never really needed the help, but I guess the interest was there, much like it was for him. And so when I was choosing colleges, they kind of just brought up pharmacy and they said, “Hey, this seems like a really lucrative field of study right now that you can look into since you like chemistry and math.” So I kind of decided to try it out with the thinking that if I don’t like it, I could always get out of it. But if I don’t get in now, then I won’t have a Master’s degree in six years and the opportunity was really good. So I ended up applying to a couple of schools, and there weren’t that many pharmacy schools in my area. There were only two, so that narrowed down my choices. And I actually loved it in school. I loved learning about the body, and I learned about the biochemistry and about all the medications but also about the non-pharmacological areas, which is what I specialize in now. So I loved the whole process. So being in pharmacy school but again, when it came time to graduate, I found myself at a loss for where in pharmacy exactly I see myself fitting in. My focus was, again, kind of widespread and I liked a lot of different areas, but I couldn’t see myself doing any one thing. And I chose a variety of diverse rotation settings just to put myself in different experiences, but I still couldn’t see myself doing a fellowship or any other kind of advanced training program or in retail or in hospital. So I was kind of like thinking, what am I going to do after I graduate?

Tim Ulbrich: So you had a lot of interests heading into pharmacy, ultimately went that pathway for the reasons that you mentioned. And I’m not surprised you graduate, I can tell that you’re inherently a learner, you’re interested in lots of different things. You go through your rotations, you’ve got this doctorate degree, but you’re not necessarily feeling like you fit into any “traditional” mold, right, that we often think of of pharmacy graduates, which as I think we’re doing a better job of now in 2021, you know, realizing that there certainly are lots of opportunities. The PharmD is a pathway, in my opinion, to many different opportunities. And we’re going to get to yours here in a moment. But tell us then about the path after pharmacy school. What did you do? And did you find out and ultimately get into something that you found out you love? Or did it just affirm that, you know what, I’m not sure where I’m going to go with this path?

Marina Buksov: Yes, so I guess it’s just taking things step-by-step and one day at a time and seeing what opportunities arise and present themselves. So I did end up going to Midyear to interview for fellowships, but that’s when I realized that I don’t see myself doing neither a residency or a fellowship, even though it’s such a lucrative and competitive field that I feel like, you know, people go into it for maybe the merit of it or the prestige of it, maybe some people are really into it, but I was only seeing like the prestige side of it and I wasn’t really seeing how it was really something I’m personally passionate about, so I decided that wasn’t a good reason to apply. So I turned down the one offer that I had and I instead took another offer from a local pharmacy that was just a plain independent retail pharmacy that I had been working part-time as I was in pharmacy school and like learning the ropes there. So I accepted their position as a pharmacist. I figured this was like a safe step for me, a stepping stone, and from here, I could also do some learning on the side and figure out what I want to do next. And as it turns out, that pharmacy went out of business. Well, not really. But they were selling the pharmacy, so they said, ‘Oh, you know, there’s probably no point in us hiring you because we’re going to be selling the business so then we don’t know what the new owners are going to do.’ So basically, that offer fell through. And I found myself having no idea what to do. But I ended up just spending the summer after graduation and taking the test seeing on social media what opportunities are out there, and I ended up going to another pharmacy to kind of learn the system there and cover for someone. And it turned out a pharmacy next door was looking for a full-time pharmacist. So I happened to just go in there and drop off my resume, and they called me back and they said, “OK, we have a position for you.” And the interesting thing is it wasn’t a full-time in one position. It was kind of split between two stores. And one of the stores was in an area that I had said to myself that I would like to work in before, which is this area of Brooklyn that’s kind of a Russian population area called Brighton Beach next to the beach. And they do a lot of herbal medicine there because Russian medicine, much like Chinese, is very integrative in their approach. So their pharmacies are trained in both herbal medicine and pharmacological medicine and pharmaceutical medicine. So it kind of embodied both of those worlds, and I started my journey there.

Tim Ulbrich: So you’re working in a pharmacy that has more “traditional,” you know, what we think of of the pharmacy and dispensing medications, and then they have this more nontraditional — at least nontraditional in the sense of how we think of pharmacy practice in the U.S. So tell us more about that experience as you’re getting into more of the herbal experience and, you know, what did you learn through that? And how did this position and experience affect your path forward?

Marina Buksov: So it was pretty amazing to see how we have — we’re considered to be masters in our field, right, doctors, actually doctor of pharmacy in our six years of intense schooling, but we really know next to nothing on other types of medicine, anything “alternative” or holistic or complementary. All of that is kind of like if you’re lucky, you get an elective like I did. But otherwise, we don’t know too much. And even the over-the-counter medicines, we don’t go in depth about — again, unless you’re taking a self-care elective. It’s amazing that yes, we pack so much schooling and we come out with so much knowledge but also there’s so much more out there that we don’t know because we don’t know what we don’t know, right? If you just simply don’t know that it’s out there, you won’t even know that you can look for something else, right? So you’ll just rely on the “traditional” things that are conventional and available. So this was kind of like scratching the surface and exposing me to how other countries actually still utilize plant medicine and herbals and many more diverse over-the-counter products than we do. Basically, they’re very, very creative in how people are taking care of themselves from the home and they can go to a pharmacy and get a lot — a bunch of herbs or a bunch of herbal products or a mix between an herbal and a pharmaceutical that’s available without a prescription. And so there’s just so much more to know. And the pharmacists that are trained by, for example, Russian schools or any other kind of country that has this integrative approach, they know maybe not as in-depth as what we know pharmacologically, but they know a lot more about general self-care things that are, again, available to people without going to the doctor and without going to get a prescription. So that was really impressive, and I realized that I also want to know more.

Tim Ulbrich: So Marina, one of the things that I think of and I’ve seen this and heard it from entrepreneurs that have been on this show is that often, some experience that someone has leads to an interest or sparks an idea and then that ultimately will set them off on the path to start something, could be a business, could be a nonproft, could be a side hustle, whatever you want to call it. And before we get into your business, what you’re doing, what you’re working on, I don’t want to gloss over that there is a big jump from experience to idea to actually starting a business. So talk us through that a little bit more in terms of you’re working in this pharmacy, you’re getting this experience, it’s affirming the interests that you have, you’re a learner and you’re absorbing more information. What is the idea or the opportunity that you see that ultimately leads to you starting your business?

Marina Buksov: I mean, I think there were several big factors that were going on, one of which was my personal health journey that has been going on too during this time. And the interesting thing is that now, I — looking back at it — attribute it to psychosomatic things that were happening in my body and my mind and spirit, perhaps, because as I was graduating pharmacy school, I remember described my confusion and not feeling like I fit in anywhere, not knowing if this is actually the path that I should be on, kind of questioning all of that. And I called this my quarter-life crisis that happened because as I chose, you know, the retail position and the retail, as you know, you’re kind of behind the counter and, you know, the most pleasurable activity there was coming out and counseling the patients. But because of the fast pace, even in independent settings, often unless they had questions, counseling wouldn’t really happen.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Marina Buksov: So that was my biggest joy, but unfortunately, I found myself mostly just filling prescriptions and checking things and billing insurances and calling doctors and calling insurances and being behind the counter and not really having the patient-to-patient interaction, which is what my favorite part was. And I started having different kinds of health issues arise from finishing pharmacy school and all through my first years of practice where I had like a worsening in my digestive tract issues that I had growing up, IBS type of things. I was also diagnosed with H. pylori. I had to take a lot of antibiotics. Then I had this obscure dacryostenosis happen in my eyes, which is when your tear ducts basically become more narrow. And so my eyes starting getting chronically inflamed. And at that point, I didn’t even want to come out and see anyone from behind the counter because I felt that I looked horrible with my inflamed eyes. And to top everything off, I also started having PCOS type of symptoms and was diagnosed with it and had lots of acne, which I never had growing up. So it was adult-onset acne and weight gain. And so all of these issues started cropping up when I, again, now, looking back at it, see it tied more to my life purpose and my mission wasn’t really being carried out. And so my health was suffering because of that.

Tim Ulbrich: OK, so Marina, you identify an opportunity to help train others, make other folks aware of some of these practices that, again, could supplement more what we think of traditional medicine. So what does that lead to in terms of your business, your services, what you’re offering, who that’s intended for, and really, what does that look like to solve the problem of which you just described, which is to really help fill what is potentially a gap out there and unawareness and lack of education?

Marina Buksov: Yeah, well, it took some time to distill that exact thought in my entrepreneurial journey. And as I like to say, the entrepreneurial journey is kind of like a forever commitment because you’re always growing. And it’s very much tied to professional growth, the business growth, and your personal growth where your business is a reflection of you and what you’re going through internally. And if you can master your own self, you can master having a business. As I was going along and working in mostly the retail setting, I realized this gap existed, right? So the first step was realizing that there is something I don’t know. So the first thing I need to do is educate myself on that. And then I could kind of draw some other conclusions or learn how to run a business with that perhaps or how to incorporate that into my practice that I already have. So first thing I did was I spoke to my complementary and alternative elective professor, and I asked her what she thinks I should do, and I shared with her how I feel like I don’t fit in and I really did have an interest in that elective. So she suggested I reach out to another person who was a graduate right before me. So when I spoke to her, she suggested that I go into health coaching. So my first program out of college was immediately enrolling in a health coaching program. So after that, I underwent a series of other programs where I learned everything from functional nutrition to eventually clinical herbalism. So how to work with plants and phytochemicals in a way to support the human body. Both nutritionally and medicinally, plants have a huge role in this. And they’re really the basis of both traditional pharmacy and naturopathy and even functional medicine or any supplement that you take out there, they have a basis of some kind of plant behind that. So the minerals and vitamins we extract or the active constituents probably have a root in a plant somewhere.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think, you know, you’re taking me back, Marina, to sometime in pharmacy school. And you’re right. There’s just a lot of connection back to the herbal aspect. And you’re spot-on that traditional PharmD curricula doesn’t necessarily provide much information — really, if at all sometimes, depending on the curriculum — that would allow folks to think about some of the application of this clinically or how some patients might be interested in approaching this. So again, you’ve identified a need, right? We’ve just talked about that. You mentioned about this very much being a journey, which I would agree with. And you’ve sought out additional training, so you provided some additional education to help increase your skills, which then takes us to the point where OK, you’ve got — you’ve obviously got your PharmD background, you’ve got some additional training, you’ve identified an opportunity to serve a group that perhaps isn’t being served to the full potential. So if I come to you, Marina, and I’m interested in this area of practice, whether I’m a pharmacist or not, like what are you offering? What is the product? What is the service?

Marina Buksov: There were a couple of iterations in my offerings. But it has evolved to me seeing clients in a functional medicine capacity as part of a team on a telehealth platform. So I realized that that would probably be the best use of my time in working with private clients whereas the majority of my business focus is really around educating and that knowledge gap to other providers and healthcare practitioners, especially pharmacists, that are wanting to learn about employing herbal medicine, whether they’re a pharmacy owner that wants to specialize and offer this to their patients or if there’s any other way that they would like to incorporate it as a private consultant like I did for many years or working with supplement companies as a consultant. I mean, there’s a myriad of ways. And that’s actually part of what we do in the program besides the didactic knowledge and homework that I give and accountability that I provide, I also train on the kind of business end side of things and how to actually implement some of these things into your work or business so that you have a successful vocation at the end of it.

Tim Ulbrich: Gotcha. So there’s both the patient side of it; you mentioned seeing clients one-on-one, and then more of the focus of what you’re doing on the business is training and educating others both on their clinical understanding but also some of the business aspects involved with this. So if we continue on the journey, I mentioned before often we have an experience that can spark an idea or lead to an interest that then takes us on our own entrepreneur journey to start something. Once you start something, obviously there’s then the task of OK, do folks know about what I’m doing? And how am I marketing this? And how am I making people aware of this? So tell us about your current strategies. I looked at your website; you’ve got a lot of great educational information, you’ve got a podcast. Like what is your strategy in terms of standing out so that other folks can become aware of who you are, your brand, the services that you offer, and ultimately engage in those and benefit from them.

Marina Buksov: This is definitely something that after I got the clinical knowledge side of things down — and again, I’m a person like many of us, especially pharmacists, we feel like we never know enough, so we always want more and more and more courses and all of this stuff, which I’m definitely guilty of. But eventually, I said, OK, I know enough to start helping people. So now I have to, again, focus on how am I presenting myself? How are people finding me? How can I serve? You know, because I am now capable of serving in the way that I want to serve. But how can I do that without any clients? So I had to also teach myself that and I have to say that it was a very hard and rocky journey to teach myself, so I really recommend investing in a coach that will show you the ropes, which is what I eventually had to do. I actually worked with several business coaches and was part of like Business Masterminds and again, those are great for accountability and support. And I’m trying to really cut that learning curve for people where they can just go to one program that will teach them a really, really good foundation and basis for everything that they would need in terms of botanical medicine, which is again, the backbone of every alternative, holistic practice in some way or form. And so people can get the clinical side of things, get a really good foundation and backbone, and start to dip their feet into the marketing and the business side of things immediately and finding themselves a niche and whatever else will help them on their particular implementation plan because for me, it took me a really long time. You know, I’ve been working slowly, slowly to build my business for about seven years now. And this year was the first year that I really pivoted and decided who am I going to serve and was really clear on that and came out with my program, which I mentioned, that I’m now running. So this all kind of solidified earlier this year.

Tim Ulbrich: And I hope our listeners, especially those that have an idea or maybe they’re at the beginning of their journey or maybe even feeling frustrated with, man, this is just not taking off as quickly as I can, just hearing that timeframe, right? Seven years. You know, I think back to the journey of YFP, coming up on seven years. And there is always something new that is to be learned. And I would encourage folks to check out your website, Marina. We’ll link to that in the show notes, DrMarinaBuksov.com, because I think you’ve done a really nice job of what I think is an important recipe to taking people along the journey from interest to actually being able to engage with those folks and then offer them a product or a service that is of value and hopefully is mutually beneficial between you and that individual. And you know, when you look on your website, you’ve got obviously valuable educational content in terms of interview that you do on the podcast and other resources, but you also have done a nice job with building lead generation techniques and guides and some other things that help you to capture those leads and then you have the ability to follow up with them and convert traffic into conversations that you can have and engage with that community. And so lead with value and then find a way to be able to capture that audience and then you can have that two-way conversation to see whether or not your services may be a good fit. Marina, I want to go back to something you mentioned a little bit earlier. And you mentioned it quickly, but it’s a really important point. And that is that folks that are going on this entrepreneurial journey, no matter where they are in that journey, I do think that certainly includes not only the professional side but a fair amount of personal development. And I believe from my experiences that often, engaging and leaning into the business can really bring out some of the best strengths that someone may have that maybe they weren’t even fully aware of what those strengths were, but it also can expose some weaknesses, opportunities for development, whatever you want to call it, that maybe otherwise weren’t exposed because of all the different hats that you have to wear as you’re trying to get a business off and running. So Marina, for your journey, what are an area or two that you think of by going through this journey and the work that you’ve done in starting this business, it’s really brought out or firmed some of the strengths that you have and then other side of the equation, maybe has exposed some opportunities where you even need to surround yourself with others’ support or even develop yourself a little bit further.

Marina Buksov: That’s a great question. I think really, this journey does expose you with the opportunities for growth, like you said, by exposing you to some of your not-so-favorite qualities or maybe even your worst qualities will come to life when you start to run a business because like I said, often we see the business as a reflection of us because it’s so personal to us. It’s related to our vocation and our personal mission, what we’re trying to be in the world. So sometimes, when we’re faced with not seeing success right away or as soon as we like or the level of success that we like, however you would like to measure that but most people measure it with fame or money or visibility or some kind of feedback, right, from the real world, maybe really good testimonials is another one. So whatever success is for you, it’s important to define it and to also be able to separate you from your business but also learn when it is a mirror and what you can learn from it. So you know, just because your business may not take off as soon as you’d like, like we said, seven years for us, or something is just not going your way or you’re experiencing some sort of setback, just know that it could be a “temporary failure” or think of it only as a lesson because you really can only either win or learn. That’s how I approach things nowadays. And so if something doesn’t take off immediately or doesn’t give you a reward on your investment right away, it doesn’t mean that it wasn’t valuable. It’s a step that was vital for you to not repeat that in the future or to learn a different strategy that will work better or some other important lesson for you to, again, learn from. And especially if you don’t have a business background, you should expect some sort of challenges or setbacks in business your first rodeo because you know, you could be a great pharmacist and know everything there is about pharmacy, but that doesn’t mean that you’ll know immediately how to run a business and how to have that proper mindset to run a business. So for me, it was a lot of coaching that helped me and also seeing that other people on the same journey as entrepreneurs are also experiencing similar challenges and setbacks. So viewing that as a normal part of the growth process instead of seeing it as a failure is my best advice. And ultimately, I realized that even if I do experience setbacks in my business, it’s still worth it for me to eventually have the opportunity to succeed by showing my mission and getting more recognition about my mission. And inspiring others to pursue their missions with my story is worth it to me, despite all of the setbacks that it has potentially.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And that’s what I encourage folks: Share your story. You don’t know who’s listening, who may be affirmed by that, who might have an idea that it helps stimulate that forward, a student who’s feeling frustrated and unsure of where to go with their career path and just hearing about alternative ideas. I think so much value in that. And Marina, loved what you shared to connect that with the value for you of a coach. And I think that sometimes on this journey, like not only — especially for folks that are working full-time and they’re starting a business or an idea, you know, there’s that excitement, there’s that energy, but it also can be a lonely place and you’re putting in a lot of time. And having a coach, having a community, having a mastermind, having folks around you that you can bounce ideas off of and get support from, is just really important for the accountability but also be able to talk out loud as I think so much of this, we can live in our own thoughts as we’re trying to build the business. And shoutout here as I think about for YFP, my partner at YFP, Tim Baker, you know, I have the opportunity to sit down on a regular basis and we can share wins, we can share frustrations, but just having those conversations I think is so, so valuable. Marina, I’m going to ask you about the connection between the personal financial plan and what you’re doing on the business side and vice versa. And where I’m going with this is that I am a firm believer that a good, healthy business is often built and built confidently when you can build that upon having a strong personal financial foundation because you’re not necessarily worried about, ‘What about this? What about that?’ It doesn’t necessarily mean you have all of your financial goals achieved, but you’ve got a good foundation of which you can work from so you’re not constantly worried about that as you approach the business with confidence. And vice versa, often our business activities are able to help support our personal financial goals, whatever that may be for individuals that are listening. So tell us a little bit about for you, how the business and your personal plan have really worked alongside and have ultimately fed into one another.

Marina Buksov: I have to admit that I was a little bit floundering in this area before with actually tracking things. Like you were saying, it’s really important to bounce ideas and to talk about what’s happening, what are the wins, what are the challenges, and to actually put that into numbers and see in that way how your business is actually doing because numbers don’t lie, as they say. So that part of it, actually tracking and putting things down as data and analyzing it, you know, you can just remove some of the stigma that’s attached to OK, is this number a win or a fail? And actually, just view it as a statistic that is showing you OK, what can you improve on based on these numbers? You know, which area needs improvement? Which area is doing well? So that way, you can focus your resources and your time and energy on improving the things that aren’t doing well and doubling down on the things that are. But unless you track it and use numbers, you really won’t know. And so same thing with my business. You know, for a long time, I was reluctant to even put down numbers that are coming in from clients and balancing the checkbook and all of those kind of business tasks because it’s like a hassle because it’s another thing for you to do, but I realized that it’s very important and it actually gives you the clarity and the confidence with what needs to be done next because another thing that was a challenge for me is to learn how to prioritize. And so when you see the numbers in front of you, you see what needs to be done first. You know, what is an area that really needs your help and attention right now? And what scenario that can wait? And often, you know, I spread myself thin. I’m sure many other people do, trying to do all the things. But really, we need a structured guide so that you mentioned before, not to burn yourself out by all the business activities and to really have this focused plan of intention and a plan of action, which can really be informed by the numbers. So when earlier this year, you know, I was investing in coaching programs all these past years and really wanted to take my business to the next level and wanting to leave my job full-time, that’s when we started to — actually last year at this time, so about a year ago, my husband and I decided to look into a financial planner because we wanted to know, you know, where do we stand financially personally? And where can we be confident in making a certain buffer for ourselves so that we can take certain risks with our business? I think that’s really important to have a plan and to expect some setbacks. Nothing is going to be smooth sailing. You know, the past few years taught me that. But I decided it was really important to look at the numbers and to create a buffer, which we were comfortable for a certain period of time so that we give ourselves that safety zone from which the business could grow. And again, that’s always a risk. Is the business is going to take off exactly per our plan, our projections, or not? So shameless plug to YFP: I was working with YFP, and I found that I really didn’t know much because this is not my area of interest, right? Accounting and counting numbers, I am more into health and wellness and getting results for my clients. I would like to dedicate my time for those kind of things. But living in the real world, you do have to think about personal finances and business finances and retirement and putting away money for more expenses than you even are expecting because —

Tim Ulbrich: Boring, right?

Marina Buksov: Yeah, a lot of us live paycheck-to-paycheck, and we don’t realize, you know, we need to set aside money for this or we need to plan an estate or we need to maybe save for education for our kids or if you are a homeowner, there’s many hidden expenses that pop up that you don’t expect. So we decided it was time for us to kind of get a realistic perspective and reality check so that we can be more confident in the business side of things. And so I highly recommend working with a financial advisor that has your best interests at heart and doesn’t just want to sell you things with commission attached.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think for Marina, you mentioned some of the value that can come from the technical side, right, of the financial plan. I know for Jess and I and our journey, which I think is something that others may find value in, is sometimes when you’re in the weeds of your own financial plan, it’s really hard to see outward, right? And having somebody as a third party, you know, thinking of spouses or couples that might be working with a planner specifically, where you can have somebody ask really good questions that get you thinking, that get you talking, that get you really evaluating like, what is the true risk on this scale, right? And I think that while I don’t want to categorize all pharmacists as being risk-averse, I think sometimes we view financial decisions on that end — and I’m certainly not promoting that we go out and make crazy financial decisions, right. We’ve got to take care of our future self. But we’ve also got to live a rich life today. And part of what I’m hearing through this interview, Marina, for you is living a rich life was pursuing this passion that not only was only important to your physical and emotional health but also what you saw as an opportunity to bring this information to other healthcare practitioners and ultimately the patients that they serve to be able to have an impact. And that’s an investment worth making, right, in being able to see that through, whether it’s a coach, whether it’s a financial planner, and certainly all the other investments you’ve made in getting the business up. Marina, I’m thinking back to your journey where you mentioned, ‘Hey, I’m graduating pharmacy school. Yeah, it’s been an interesting ride, but I don’t really feel like I fit, right? I don’t fit in a traditional mode of fellowship or of residencies or, you know, community pharmacy or inpatient practice. And so I suspect we have a lot of other people that might be feeling that, whether it’s students that are maybe questioning was this the right decision or I’m not sure where I’m going to go or practicing pharmacists that might feel the pull to explore another area of pharmacy and how their pharmacy degree could be used but they just don’t know where to go, who to talk to, where to start. What advice would you have for folks that are out there that are listening and feeling like, I’m just not sure I really fit in this whole pharmacy thing. Like where do I go? What do I do?

Marina Buksov: Yeah, so I think the best thing to do is really dip your toes, just like I was talking about how I selected a diverse variety of rotation sites for myself in APs and FPs. As much as possible, I tried to diversify. I worked in insurances, worked in different settings, pharmaceutical industry, basically everything was super different. And that taught me, actually, what I liked and what I didn’t like because just getting a glimpse into a setting and how it would be like to work there and the day-to-day, how to assess what they’re doing on their back end and how you feel about that and then giving you a sense of if you can climb the ladder in that space, if it’s more corporate or not. So you can kind of picture yourself in those spaces and see do you feel good there? And does this agree with your inner wiring or your ethics? Because for me, I found that I really wanted to make an impact. That was important to me to use my skills in a way that was impactful and that I felt I was creating good in the world. And I saw that as targeting the low-hanging fruit, you know, how we can improve on a large scale our public health and self-care by education and by self-care. That’s really my mission, what it really boils down to. And the other settings for me didn’t provide that level of impact. You know, there was some personal gratification or again that prestige aspect in some settings, but I was not on the same mission as those settings and what they were doing. So I didn’t feel like I fit in there. On the other hand of the spectrum, even if you don’t get to go on a variety of rotation sites, you can find your own opportunities. So actually, I had a bunch of students reach out to me. And I might be a preceptor someday soon.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, fun.

Marina Buksov: And then besides — nowadays, yeah, the opportunities are crazy because we’re in a virtual world. But you can also just reach out locally. So when I was considering going to herb school — actually, before I even knew there was a thing because that’s another missing knowledge gap because I didn’t even know there was such a thing — so before I even knew somebody had recommended that I check out an herb shop as a place where I could practice alternative pharmacy. So I went to a local herb shop and asked the owner to give me an internship, which he did. So there is plenty of ways you can create your own opportunity and learn from the experience and empirically applying yourself there. It’s going to teach you so much more than what you can read in a blog or a book. So that’s really what I recommend. And when I was in the shop, that’s when I decided to go to this school and get a more formal education because I did see myself aligning with that and being interested to learn more. So I think exposing yourself to experiencing is the best teacher. So whatever way you can do that locally or virtually nowadays and get somebody to mentor you or again, if you’re able to invest in a coach if let’s say you’re not a student but you’re a pharmacist, it is worth it to have some level of guidance or mentorship.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, great advice and wisdom, Marina. And back to a comment that you made earlier. You either win or you learned along the way, correct? And I think of maybe students who have some of those opportunities to choose rotations and get out there and network. But for pharmacists that are out there, you know, don’t let that be a hindrance. You know, reach out to folks like Marina. Reach out to folks in other nontraditional areas. You know, have several conversations. People are very willing typically to meet. And I think not only will that networking be really valuable, but I think it will also stimulate hopefully some ideas and conversations and lead to other connections that will affirm areas of interest and hopefully generate some ideas as well. Marina, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your story. I’m looking forward to following your journey in the years ahead. And I have a feeling you have inspired folks that are listening and perhaps in their own journey, whether they may be on moving forward with some of the ideas that they have of their own. So Marina, as we wrap up, where can listeners go to learn more about you and the work that you’re doing and to connect with you?

Marina Buksov: Yes, so the website you mentioned, it’s DrMarinaBuksov.com. And it has all the links to my social media. But I am on Facebook and Instagram and even TikTok nowadays. So you could reach me everywhere at @DrMarinaBuksov. And you can also search by my business name, which is Raw Fork.

Tim Ulbrich: Great. We’ll link to those in the show notes. And again, Marina, thank you so much for your time.

Marina Buksov: Thank you so much, Tim.

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YFP 217: How Kelley Used Her Clinical Expertise to Build a Business

Posted on August 19, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How Kelley Used Her Clinical Expertise to Build a Business

On this episode, sponsored by GoodRx, Kelley Carlstrom shares how she has leveraged her clinical expertise to make oncology specialty training more accessible.

About Today’s Guest

Kelley D. Carlstrom received her Doctor of Pharmacy from The University of Colorado and completed post-graduate residency training at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and Dana-Farber Cancer Institute in Boston, MA. She is a board-certified oncology pharmacist that has worked in a variety of traditional and non-traditional settings including at a large academic medical center where she specialized in blood and marrow transplantation, at a small community hospital, as a consultant for a large electronic medical record implementation, and most recently at a healthcare technology startup company committed to building software products for oncology clinicians. Kelley is passionate about oncology and sees a growing need for more pharmacists to be trained in this specialty. She has launched KelleyCPharmD, LLC which offers unique oncology training opportunities because she believes every pharmacist deserves access to specialty training that can transform their career.

Summary

Kelley Carlstrom, a board-certified oncology pharmacist, joins Tim Ulbrich on this episode to discuss her side hustle, which arguably is more of a full-time business. She talks about her career journey as a clinical oncology specialist, what motivated her to develop oncology training opportunities through KelleyCPharmD, and how her business has accelerated her financial plan.

Through her career experiences, Kelley learned there are gaps in oncology specialty training availability and a lack of support for pharmacists managing complex cancer treatments without additional resources. This shortage of resources and training, partnered with a need for oncology-trained pharmacists across the country, created an opportunity to build technology and education to fill that gap. Kelley saw this problem and began working on a solution, and KelleyCPharmD was born.

Without a background in business or being a prior business owner, Kelley had to learn how to take on various tasks outside of her comfort zone, including building her website. Initially, she explains, she wanted to make low-risk financial decisions about the business while testing its necessity and benefit to the pharmacy community. For Kelley, this hustle is not just a temporary solution. She is in it for the long haul. Kelley has built a business that she enjoys, sharing that experience with other pharmacists who she employs. She sees KelleyCPharmD and the flexibility that it will bring to her life as an integral part of her long-term financial plan.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Kelley, thank you for coming on the show.

Kelley Carlstrom: Thanks so much for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Really excited to dig into your pharmacy journey as well as your business, Kelley C, PharmD, LLC and your upcoming launch of a really incredible course. And I was sharing with you before we hit record, our paths crossed several years ago when you were up at Northeast Ohio and I was up at Northeast Ohio. And as we will share throughout this episode, your career has really taken some interesting turns and I love the mission and the work that you’re doing as a trained oncology pharmacist to really help impact and provide those services to other pharmacists and ultimately to have a positive impact on patient care. So excited for this interview and getting it out to our community. I think they’re going to find it really inspirational. So we have, as those that are listening know, we have featured several pharmacy entrepreneurs on this show as they have shared their business stories, their side hustle stories, and to be clear, the work that we’re going to talk about today that Kelley is doing at Kelley C, PharmD, is more than what I think of when I hear “side hustle.” This really feels more like a main hustle. But our goal nonetheless is the same, and that is to share inspiring stories of pharmacists such as Kelley that have really taken their clinical experience and training and because of their passion, developed an incredible business and offering that is helping other pharmacists while helping also accelerate their personal financial goals. So Kelley, start us off by telling us about how you got into pharmacy, where you went to school, and your training and some of the first work that you did after school and in residency.

Kelley Carlstrom: Sure. So I went to pharmacy school, I worked as a technician, actually, for a long time before pharmacy school. So I’ve been in pharmacy for awhile. But I graduated pharmacy school in 2010 from the University of Colorado. And I moved to Boston for postgraduate residency training. So I did my first year at Beth Israel Deaconess and my second year literally a stone’s throw across the street at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute. After I did residency, I moved to Cleveland, of which I had never been before. I’d spent about 24 hours in an interview there and moved for a really incredible job. And my — I was tasked with starting a new pharmacy-led ambulatory service in the bone marrow transplant department. They had really a not — they had very few pharmacists that touched patients in the ambulatory setting. But they were having some issues in bone marrow transplant when the patients were admitted. They were on interacting drugs, their med rec was terrible. So they really wanted to try to capture those patients up front. And I loved it. I loved the ambulatory setting, I got to chat with patients all day long. And I did that for several years and ended up deciding to broaden my scope a little bit because bone marrow transplant, although I love it, is super niche. Rare treatment of rare cancers. So I ended up moving to a small community hospital within the same health system. So I went from working with 10 physicians in my niche in bone marrow transplant down to two physicians that covered all cancers. So really different environment, large academic center down to community center. And I learned a lot there. I learned that this is where the majority of cancer patients are treated in this country are these small community centers. Most of them don’t go to these large academic places. And I learned what it was like to be the only pharmacist in this type of setting. So I did everything. I did the clinical work, I did the order verification, the product verification, and I am so thankful still to this day I had a rockstar technician that kept me on task. So it was a great learning experience.

Tim Ulbrich: So Kelley, you talked about, you know, your time at school in Colorado, made the move cross-country to Boston, from Boston to northeast Ohio where you’re at a large academic medical center, regarded as one of the best healthcare institutions really in the world. And then you decide to make a pivot to a smaller community hospital within that same system. You know, I think the question that comes to mind is why make that pivot from the large academic medical center where we tend to think about the specialty experiences, the high intensity care types of cases, you know, that’s where we’re really going to get the most bang for our buck as a specialist and what we’ve been trained to do. Why make that move? And tell me more about when you say that you realized many patients are getting their care in the — more of the local, community setting, not necessarily going to those larger academic health centers, what did that really help you do in terms of form your thoughts around what support pharmacists do or do not get in those roles where they’re not at those large institutions?

Kelley Carlstrom: Well, I did realize that just a couple years out of residency, I had hit the top rung of my career ladder. And I was a little surprised about that. And I guess I shouldn’t have been when I kind of understood what the career trajectory was after residency. But I was, you know, doing all of the things that we do in clinical specialist roles. I was seeing patients, I was involved in the residency program, I was a director of the PGY2 program, I spoke at conferences, you know, I gave CEs, I did all the things, but I was at that top rung and wanted to expand and see what else was out there, how else I could develop my skills. So that’s what moved me to the community practice. And when I got there, I think what it showed to me, I was very — I felt very fortunate because I had — like I mentioned, I was the only pharmacist in the whole hospital, let alone the cancer center that had any oncology experience. So I felt fortunate that I could rely on my residency training, I could rely on my colleagues that I had connected with, that I had worked with over many years, and I could reach out for help. But as I interacted with other pharmacists at other smaller community centers like me, I realized not everybody has those resources. And I thought it would be pretty terrifying. I mean, I was busy throughout the day, there was a lot of questions I didn’t know, I don’t know why every 5FU pump shows up at 10 a.m. on a Tuesday, you know? It’s really busy, it’s a fast-paced type of environment. And I just, I was so fortunate that I had resources to tap. And I was just wondering, how do these other pharmacists manage this? Because like I said, there’s so many of these cancer centers. And yeah, I just wanted to determine how other pharmacists kind of make that successful.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think we’re going to come back in a little bit and dig into more of what I perceive to be the solution that you’ve developed to the problem that you observed in terms of pharmacists that are at these smaller institutions or even perhaps institutions that may not have access to those pharmacists and how can we be able to provide those services in a way that might seem a little bit more nontraditional. Kelley, it reminds me — you know, one of the thoughts I had often in my academic roles where it’s very common where there’s a shared faculty member that spending time at the college and time at the practice site and often, the funding of those positions may be split between those institutions, and those practice sites tend to be very robust, they tend to be very innovative, they’re training students. But I always left feeling a little bit unsettled of like, how does this scale? Or how does this translate when we think about the pharmacist impact nationally and ultimately, what a pharmacist can do to improve patient care? And I think those types of pilot sites, I guess you could call them, are great. Or if I think about here, what we’re discussing in terms of sites that have access to really robust, advanced residency training programs and clinical specialists, that’s great. But that’s a really small percentage overall of the institutions that are out there across the country. And so I think the vision that you have here — and we’ll talk more about some of the services that you’re deploying to help solve this problem, is really an interesting one. And when I first learned more about that, it was kind of a lightbulb moment for me of wow, like this is a really incredible opportunity for here, we’re talking about oncology practice, but I could see how this could also translate beyond oncology practice of how do we be able to really extend the expertise of a pharmacist outside of what we might think are the institutions that are able to offer these services or have the resources to do so. Now, before we get into that and talking more about what you’ve developed with Kelley C, PharmD, and to really help solve this problem, bring us up to speed with your current positions and the transition you made after that experience at the small community hospital and the work that you’ve been doing since then.

Kelley Carlstrom: I was pretty happy in my small community role, and I had a recruiter reach out to me through LinkedIn, which is one reason I’m so passionate about advocating for pharmacists to be on LinkedIn because this is where a lot of job opportunities come from. So I got recruited into a consulting role where I helped a large center get off of their paper chemotherapy orders and into their EMR, which there still are cancer centers and other centers that are on paper orders. And what surprised me is that I found this love for oncology and technology that I didn’t realize I had. You know, it’s not the typical path of a clinical specialist to end up on the tech side or the informatics side of things. But what I realized is that we have a lot of bad tech in healthcare. And the reason why we do is because there’s not enough clinicians helping inform those products. So I did that for awhile, almost three years. And when that contract ended, I was looking to stay in the technology space. So I ended up at a healthcare technology startup. So an interesting role for a pharmacist, and it’s really great because we’re making software products for oncology physicians and patients. And I get to bring my clinical practice experience to help inform those products.

Tim Ulbrich: And that led you out to San Francisco, correct?

Kelley Carlstrom: It did.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. So adding to the list, as we talked about, you know, Colorado to Boston to Cleveland and so forth. So really cool. So on top of that role and that position that you’re working in in that startup where you’re able to really blend your passion and love for oncology with some more of the informatics technology side, I want to shift gears and talk about the business that you have developed because I think it’s a really interesting example and one that I’m excited to share with our community about how you’ve been able to leverage your clinical expertise and ultimately monetize that expertise while being able to provide value and a service to other pharmacists and ultimately, the patients they serve. So Kelley C, PharmD, LLC, tell us about when it started, how it started, and ultimately what was some of the why behind getting this effort off the ground?

Kelley Carlstrom: Well technically, it started two years ago. That’s when I made my LLC. But I had some ideas floating around in my head before that from what we spoke about when I was at the community cancer center and really just trying to understand who were the pharmacists that work in these settings and what kind of support do they need? And in addition to my experience there, I had a lot of pharmacists reaching out to me on LinkedIn, getting messages every day about ‘Hey, I’m new to oncology,’ or, ‘Hey, I’m covering for a maternity leave and I’ve been thrown in here and I don’t know what I’m doing.’ You know, ‘Where can I learn the basics of oncology?’ And so I sought out — I started to research like, OK, what hyperlinks can I give these people, what are articles can they read, and there was nothing cohesive out there. You know, I had to send people to a slew of different websites. And it’s just — there’s nothing that was at the baseline level of what these pharmacists needed. So that’s when I got an initial idea, but what really sparked it was I went to the MediPreneur conference, which is a conference for pharmacist entrepreneurs or other medical professional entrepreneurs. And it was great to be in a room with a lot of like-minded people that had big ideas and really just started chatting through what could this actually look like? What does being a business owner look like? Because of course, in pharmacy, we don’t get a lot of exposure to that. I think my school had a business elective that I didn’t take because I didn’t think I needed it. So you know, I don’t know anything about business. So that’s really when the process started. And from there, I just took a lot of really small steps of reaching out to pharmacists and saying, “Hey, what kind of information do you need?” and kind of gleaning more information. And it’s been growing since then.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as I mentioned on the call before we hit record, this really feels disruptive to me in a good way. And I think one of the things you shared is that there’s this idea in the profession that you can only work in oncology if you’re residency-trained, perhaps two years of training, board certification, and so forth. And that’s just not true in terms of the number of people that are out there that are working in oncology practice without training that might not be getting support. And that could be situations like you mentioned of, hey, somebody’s on leave and I’ve been thrown into this role and I want to make sure I’m doing my job well as a pharmacist and so how do I get up to speed? Or it could be maybe somebody who has been in a staff pharmacist role or maybe a general pharmacist role and they have this interest in oncology that’s flourishing. And maybe they’re out five, seven, 10 years and the idea of going back and doing some additional residency doesn’t necessarily make a whole lot of sense. And so how do we make this more accessible and to get the support that they need? And one of the things I love, Kelley, from your website is that you say, “My goal is to bring hope and optimism back to the pharmacy profession because everyone deserves access to specialty training that can transform their career.” And that mission, I know our listeners know that I talk often about any good business is ultimately finding a solution to a problem that is out there and is one that people care about. And I think you really have, you know, nailed this with a strong why and motivation behind what you’re trying to do. So kudos on the vision and for taking some of that risk to get this off the ground, even if that means not necessarily following what would be a traditional path as we think about pharmacists in these roles.

Kelley Carlstrom: Yeah, let me throw a couple numbers at you, Tim, that kind of explain this. So yeah, I completely agree with what you said about not everybody can do residency training. And we can’t restrict people working in oncology just to those that are residency-trained. And the reason for that is we don’t have enough pharmacists. So there are 71 NCI-designated cancer centers, so National Cancer Institute. And these are, they’re only in 36 states, so there’s not even one NCI center in every state. And these are the big, urban centers where residents are trained and where clinical specialists typically work. So 71. But there are more than 1,500 cancer centers in the country accredited by the Commission on Cancer. And that — they all dispense chemotherapy. There’s probably other centers, infusion centers, that dispense chemotherapy, that aren’t accredited. So we need more pharmacists to work in all of these various settings. And there are constantly oncology jobs posted. I talk with recruiters that can’t fill oncology jobs. So I know you’ve talked previously on episodes about where the profession is going and the shrinking job market, but oncology is not experiencing that. We have a lot of opportunity.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’m glad you said that, Kelley, because I think this is a great example where we often talk about the job market and trends from a global standpoint. And we really need to get down in the weeds a little bit in that there are certainly sectors of the profession, you’re talking about one here, where there’s arguably considerable opportunity for growth. And I think that’s one of the challenges when we look at general trends, Bureau of Labor Statistics, indices, etc., we’re looking at the whole pie. And really, it can be different stories if we look at different parts of the profession. And as I put on my employer hat for a moment, Kelley, like if I’m a director of pharmacy or a Chief Pharmacy Officer, and I have this open position in oncology that I can’t fill, you know, I could sit around and perhaps wait for the right time and the right person that has clinical specialist training, residency training, board certification, etc., or I might have someone in my department who has been a high performer, is a known entity, has an interest in oncology, and if there was more readily available access to resources and training, I could develop that person internally and be able to promote them up into that role. And that’s where when I say I think you’re onto something disruptive, I think that’s a great example where, you know, there’s an opportunity through more readily available training and resources to be able to train up folks within a workforce or to be able to make these positions more readily available.

Kelley Carlstrom: Exactly.

Tim Ulbrich: So talk to us more about the products and services. We’ve talked about the problem, right, that we’ve identified. You’ve talked a little bit about the why there’s a need for this. So what does the solution look like? When we talk about readily accessible resources and training, talk to us a little bit more about the products and services that you currently offer, the focus of what you do on your website, and more specifically, about the Enjoy Learning Oncology program, the ELO program for short, which is a new course that you’re going to be launching soon.

Kelley Carlstrom: So I see three main paths to learning oncology. There’s the do-it-yourself, the DIY path, where you can learn oncology on your own. All the information you need is free on the internet. But that’s the problem, right? The internet is a vast place, and you can fall down into a lot of rabbit holes, and it’s not really — it takes a lot of time investment up front to kind of do your own curation of the information. The second piece is the curated content, so what’s already been packaged out there? You know, some of the CE programs I’d put in this bucket. You’re kind of given some information. You still have to do it on your own, but it’s kind of already been collated for you. And then the third piece is the facilitated training path, which is what I’m going down. And I like to think of this as an Orange Theory analogy.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes. Yes, give us an Orange Theory analogy. Yes.

Kelley Carlstrom: So I love Orange Theory. I went a lot pre-pandemic. And what I love about it is you just show up. You don’t have to bring water, you don’t have to bring a towel, you just get dressed and you walk in the door. And they tell you what to do. “Go get on this treadmill, run at this pace, do this on the rower.” And you still have to show up and do the work, you have to burn the calories, put in the effort. But you don’t have to spend time and effort thinking, you know, what’s my workout program going to be today or tracking in your app how many reps I did. And I’ve modeled my program off of that because you also have access to those experts in the class. You can say, “Hey, is my form good?” or ask a question about the rowing machine or how fast should I be going, what’s my speed? So my program, my ELO program, has three main components. And the component that I’m most passionate about is what I call the ELO collaborative. So what this includes is a basics training program, so foundation of things like how to verify a chemotherapy order. It includes my blueprint online course, which is a really robust program that has 20+ weekly modules. And it goes through all the major diseases and a couple non-clinical topics. But what the collaborative does is it houses all of those in a bubble of access to experts. This is the biggest challenge I see and what I’ve heard from pharmacists is I can read all this material, but I have questions, I don’t understand how these things link together, I don’t know if this actually happens in real life. Just because it’s in the guidelines doesn’t mean it happens in practice. And so we need resources to be able to help direct people when they have questions. So how I do that is I hire other expert oncology pharmacists to support clients in my program. And that is through — you can ask questions weekly as you go through the content in my Slack channel. And then we have live office hours virtually where you can pick the brain of an oncology pharmacist.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. That’s really cool. And that feels like, Kelley, to me as you talked through the three types of training pathways, the DIY, more of a traditional CE type approach, and then obviously what you’re doing here, those things where you’ve got more of the support, the community aspect, the live office hours, and so forth, access to various experts, more up-to-date, relevant information, that really feels like the differentiator from that more of a traditional model. Is that accurate?

Kelley Carlstrom: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Kelley Carlstrom: I think that’s the big piece that people have told me. They have questions and they have nowhere to go to ask them.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, I love your Orange Theory analysis here. And I want to take it a step further because I participated in Orange Theory for awhile pre-pandemic, and for all the reasons that you mentioned, I thought it was incredibly impactful. A couple other things that I think resonate here as well as we’re talking about the ELO program and what you’ve developed and would be of interest to other pharmacists that might think about developing something on their own, if you want the Orange Theory type of model, you book an appointment, you’re accountable, and if you don’t show up, even though you’re paying a monthly fee, if you don’t show up, you’re going to get charged, right? And you know, one of the things I love about folks that are monetizing their clinical expertise is that for the user, for the person that’s purchasing, there is value and power in someone having skin in the game. You know, maybe you offer something for free and you get more folks involved. I can tell you from our experiences at YFP and a lot of what we’ve done, I heard from other pharmacy entrepreneurs, is that there is value in folks that make an investment to pay for something that they then perceive there is a personal return on that investment and therefore, there’s a commitment of time and energy to be able to participate in that. So I would encourage folks that are thinking about monetizing clinical expertise and services, No. 1, don’t be scared to charge for your expertise and your time, and No. 2, make sure you’re not underestimating what your service is worth. Because I think we tend to maybe have that approach for some pharmacists that are out there. The other thing I would say to that is, you know, I remember going to some of those workouts and like, you’re right, I mean, you don’t have to have all the equipment, you show up, the workout is ready for you, but you better walk in the door with a mindset of being ready to personally grow or else your butt is going to get kicked, right, for that day. And I think that’s true here. Like when you’re going to invest a lot of time and some money in a course that you’re making a commitment to develop individually and professionally, like you’ve got to be ready. You’ve got to be ready to engage. And I think the accountability you have with other learners and the accountability you have with live office hours and things like that really helps to facilitate that as well. But I think the mindset going in to a program like this is really important to be able to get everything out of it that you want to.

Kelley Carlstrom: I completely agree. Accountability is really difficult with a long program. Oncology is hard. Like it’s — we have a steep learning curve. But our profession is a profession of self-learners. So if anyone can learn oncology, it’s any pharmacist. And you just need to show up and put in the time because at the end of the day, nobody can make you learn or develop new skills. It’s really on you.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Kelley Carlstrom: And you know, my program is about eight months long. So this is not a short, do it one time course and learn all about oncology. I need you to stay committed.

Tim Ulbrich: So at the time of this episode launching, your course is maybe live or about to be live here really soon, so where can folks go to learn more about not only Kelley C, PharmD, but also more specifically about this course, the ELO program.

Kelley Carlstrom: Yeah, you can visit my website at kelleycpharmd.com. And that’s Kelley with an -ey here.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome, awesome. Let’s transition, Kelley. One of the questions I like to ask folks that are especially working full-time, they’ve started their own business whether we want to call it a side hustle — I would argue this is not. You know, it seems more than that, as I mentioned at the beginning — but whatever we want to call it, at the end of the day, you know, I think some of this is about really having a strong vision for what you want to do, the impact that you want to have, and obviously I can tell this is fulfilling work to you. But I think part of this is also about like you have financial goals, you have a financial plan, and you want to be able to accelerate some of those as well. So how has this business accelerated and impacted your financial plan?

Kelley Carlstrom: So this is — I’m in it for the long game here. So it has not had an impact on my financial plan in the short term. But what — my focus when I initially started this was, you know, not being a business owner not having any experience with business before. I wanted to kind of tiptoe my way in and do a lot of bootstrapping initially. So for example, I built my own website. Not a skill pharmacists typically have. And I definitely wasn’t great at it. But I didn’t want to make huge investments up front until I kind of got some feedback and determined if I was on the right path. So over the past two years, I’ve been getting that incremental information and investing more and more in my business. So what I — definitely what I am interested in is having this be an integral part of my plan, my financial plan, and what that gives me is flexibility. And at the end of the day, flexibility in my view is the end-all, be-all that gives you opportunity to go whatever path you want to go. If you want to take a different job, if you want to take a different job that maybe pays less, like you don’t have that pressure of needing a full-time income or benefits from a particular job. It gives you a lot more options.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. We’ve talked about the power of flexibility on this show so many times as I think that others share your belief on the value and the power that that has. Kelley, let me ask you, you mentioned — paraphrasing here — that you know, you weren’t a business owner, you didn’t see yourself necessarily as a business owner and entrepreneur. You’re a clinically-trained specialist. And so here you’ve got this really cool idea, you think that you have a solution to a problem. But I always say, there’s a big chasm between like idea and actually having something that’s out there, right? And I think this chasm is where a lot of people get overwhelmed, get lost, or perhaps give up? And Seth Godin, one of my favorite authors, talks about this as the concept of being the dip. You know, when we’ve got a really cool idea, whether it’s a project at work, whether it’s a business idea, whatever, we get really excited about it. And then we quickly find ourselves in this dip of like, oh crap, like what do I do next? And what is this really going to take? And like am I ready to kind of go through this? And what he argues in that book of which I agree with is oftentimes, we never get on the other side of the chasm or the other side of the dip because we get lost in that period. So for you, you know, you mentioned building your own website and that’s awesome. I noticed that when I was looking at the site the other day. Like as someone who doesn’t necessarily view themselves as an entrepreneur or a business person — although I would challenge you a little bit on that — what were some of the big barriers to bridging that gap between idea and actually having something to go?

Kelley Carlstrom: The biggest barrier I think is your understanding or my understanding of what you’re capable of because I think, like you said, you look into this chasm of I don’t know a lot of this information, and it can easily get in your way. So for example, initially, I was sending out an email newsletter with some interesting jobs I found that didn’t require residency. And I was manually sending these emails, Tim. I didn’t realize what an email provider was. And so I really started at the baseline of understanding all of these skills. But one thing that in my traditional or in my career path that really helped me, when I got into my consulting role, I moved from being a full-time employee to being a consultant contractor, which is a much riskier position, you can be let go at any time. And what I learned from that was I was much more project-based. So I had to show up and understand what value I was bringing and what I was delivering at the end of this project. And that’s a different mindset than when you’re an employee.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Kelley Carlstrom: So that really shifted me to think OK, I see a problem, these pharmacists reaching out to me and telling me they have a problem — shouting at me, actually. When I finally recognized OK, somebody’s giving me an opportunity here, there’s a problem, then I start thinking about how can I fix this? What’s the deliverable at the end of it? And I just started walking down that path of asking questions, the resources at the MediPreneur Summit kind of got me kicked off. They gave me a couple other references, and I just started learning on my own. I invested in some coaching and some other programs that really kind of taught me a lot of the nuances. But it’s a journey for sure. Like there is not a destination here. I am learning something every single day. There’s lots of great new technology out there to help us, depending on what you’re offering. So I’ve really enjoyed flexing those skills that I didn’t get to flex before.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think if folks that are listening that have an idea, you know, really let sink in what you said about it is a journey. I don’t view this as there’s an end point per se because there’s always the learning that’s happening of new tools, new resources, how can this be improved. But one thing you said that really resonates with me, and I’ve shared on the show before, you said, I just started, right? And there are several ways that you just started, whether it was eventually you built that website, you mentioned engaging in coaching, you attended the summit, MediPreneur Summit, which sounds like had a big impact on kind of accelerating the idea forward. And one of my favorite books I’ve referenced on the show before is “Start” by John Acoff. And that was really instrumental for me as well of OK, how do I get over some of these internal objections and fears and all these questions, and what’s one thing I can do to get started, even though you know, like you will look back, Kelley, I know you will, in five years — and even though I think you’ve done an awesome job building your site and what you have — you’ll look back and say, “Wow. This has come a long way.” Right? “It’s grown, and I can’t believe that I did this or that,” or “I can’t believe I didn’t use an email provider.” And that’s OK. Like not letting those things paralyze you but really just trying to move forward because at the end of the day, you’ve got a good vision, and you’ve got a problem that needs to be solved, and I think you’ve certainly got a solution to that. What about time? You know, I sense that many people listening are thinking, Kelley, like where and how are you finding time to build a website, you’re working a full-time position, I’m sure in a startup environment, that doesn’t mean you’re not working a decent amount of hours. So how are you balancing this with your pharmacy job? How many hours are you spending of the week in the business? Tell us a little bit more about that.

Kelley Carlstrom: Yeah, time balancing is definitely tricky. So this is my night — every night and every weekend is pretty much what I work on this. I think the — when I was first developing kind of what program I would want to create or what product I wanted to create, I had some great advice about not making a product you don’t — or not building a business that you don’t want to work in. And it sounds kind of intuitive, but when you’re initially thinking of what is the problem and what’s the solution, it can easily fall in the trap of making something that fits the solution but doesn’t fit your particular lifestyle or goals. And so when I was initially making my bigger, robust program with these 20+ modules, I was thinking, OK, I can make all this — I can do this all myself. I have this knowledge. But then I had the epiphany one day where I was thinking, why would I do this all on my own? Like I have a full-time job. I don’t need to do this on my own. So that’s when I got into the track of my business where I hire other pharmacists because what I’m realizing now is that there’s kind of a mass exodus in oncology pharmacy. A lot of experienced clinicians are leaving patient care and going into nontraditional roles, particularly pharma. And I think one reason — it’s multifaceted, but I think burnout is definitely one part of it — but one reason is that there’s not a lot of other opportunities within their role to monetize their knowledge or kind of move above that career ladder. And you can be on an advisory board or speaker panel for pharma and make a little extra money, but not — those have conflicts of interest so not everybody can do that. You can give a presentation at a conference that they usually pay you for, but then you have to slave over a slide deck. And at the end of the day, your hourly wage is pretty meager. So you know, not only am I helping pharmacists learn this material, but I wanted to bring in these expert pharmacists and pay them for their knowledge to help support me so I don’t have to do everything myself. Staff your liabilities is one of my most important phrases lately. Hire out help.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I think those hires, Kelley, like it sounds like for you — I know we’ve noticed the same thing — like in the moment, they feel really weighty, right? Not only from a financial standpoint but also you’re giving up some of that control of whatever piece or part but so instrumental to getting comfortable with that and really, at the end of the day, again, you’ve got a great vision and a big vision, and at the end of the day, like Kelley can only do so much to accomplish this vision, right? And so how does the business not necessarily become just Kelley but it’s about this accessibility of oncology specialist training to as many pharmacists that need it and that can get it out there and that you might be the limiting step to that to be able to accomplish that. And so how do you be able to build the business in a way that supports other people helping? I said this before we hit record, I mean it genuinely, so I’m going to say it again: I was really excited about this interview. You’ve delivered on inspiring me, and I sense that’s going to be true for many of our listeners as well that may have some ideas that are floating out there and maybe have not taken action on some of those and are ready to move those forward. Where can folks go or what is the best place for folks to go to connect with you and to learn more about the work that you’re doing?

Kelley Carlstrom: So you can learn more on my website, KelleyCPharmD.com. But I would love if you would connect with me on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is my favorite place to hang out, and I think most pharmacists do not maximize LinkedIn to the fullest potential. And there’s a lot of opportunity on there. So definitely reach out and send me a message.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, Kelley. And again, that’s KelleyCPharmD.com. That’s Kelley with -ey, and you can connect with her on LinkedIn. We will put her information into the show notes. If you have a story and you’re listening, you have a story that you think would make for a good episode on the podcast that either you’re monetizing your clinical expertise or have knowledge of someone else that is, please reach out to us and as always, do us a favor and leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts so more pharmacists can find this show as well. Thank you so much for joining, and hope to have you back here again next week. Take care.

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YFP 216: Common Credit Blunders to Avoid When Buying a Home

Posted on August 12, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Common Credit Blunders to Avoid When Buying a Home

On this episode, sponsored by IBERIABANK/First Horizon, Tony Umholtz discusses common credit blunders when buying a home.

About Today’s Guest

Tony graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants, and the New England Patriots. Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay, and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine, and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Summary

Tony Umholtz, a mortgage manager for IBERIABANK/First Horizon, discusses the impact of credit on purchasing a home and common credit blunders that he has encountered when working with pharmacists during the lending process for the pharmacists home loan product.

Tony explains how credit and your credit score can impact your home buying process. Your credit score can affect your interest rate for a home loan. He details how credit information is collected and how the three main credit bureaus, Experian, TransUnion, and Equifax, aggregate your FICO score. Tony lays out how the scores are calculated, with payment history making up 35% of the score, credit utilization making up 30%, length of history with 15%, and credit mix with 10%.

Some common blunders that Tony has seen when working with pharmacists include having no credit or limited credit history, maxing out a 0% interest rate credit card, and relying on third-party credit tools for an accurate FICO score. Tony further shares that clients may not be checking credit reports and correcting errors that may appear on those reports. During the home loan process, borrowers have also made the credit blunders of co-signing for a loan without fully knowing how it would impact their credit and applying for credit for large purchases like a car or furniture for the whole before the sale is final. The lender knows and can see those last-minute credit applications and changes, and those changes can impact your loan approval.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, welcome back to the show.

Tony Umholtz: Hey, Tim. It’s good to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited to have you back on. And last time we had you on was Episode 204, where we talked about the current state of buying, selling, and refinancing a home. And we’re going to link to that episode in the show notes. But Tony, before we jump into the meat of today’s episode, give us the update from your perspective on what’s happening out there in the home buying market. Anything cooling off?

Tony Umholtz: Well, you know, it depends on what you mean by cooling off. It’s still — we’re still kind of dealing with a lot of the same challenges we’ve had this past year with inventory levels are still very, very low. But there’s still a lot of demand from home buyers. And you know, hopefully we’ll see some of that additional inventory come online soon. But with interest rates continuing to decline throughout the summer, there’s still a lot of demand for both new purchases and refinances.

Tim Ulbrich: I suspected as much as interest rates came back down. I know we saw a little bit of a jump up and have come back down since. So appreciate the perspective that you share on that. And so today’s episode, the idea for this episode came from a conversation Tony and I had back on Episode 191 where we talked about 10 common mortgage mistakes to avoid. And on that episode, one of those mistakes we talked about was credit. But we wanted to dig deeper, knowing that there’s a lot more to discuss and also to hear from Tony as he can share more about some of the experiences and what he sees folks making often in terms of credit mistakes that might have an impact on their lending situation and through the process. And so you know, these mistakes could lead to surprises, which surprises during the home process, home buying process, are certainly not good things. We want to avoid that. And that could be surprises in the form of a higher interest rate or surprise credit score. And again, we want to do everything that we can to avoid that and making sure that we’re ready and prepared going into the home buying and into the lending process. Tony, before we get into the common mistakes that you see folks making around credit when purchasing a home, let’s start with the mechanics. How does credit information get into one’s lending application? When does this happen? And how does a borrower get rated?

Tony Umholtz: Great question. And you know, there’s really three large repositories that aggregate all of our information as consumers. And that’s Equifax, Experian, and Transunion. So those are the three main bureaus that are out there that are gathering all the data on our credit histories. So for example, you know, any credit cards that we may have, even starting as young as 18 years old, you know, installment loans, car loans, anything — mortgage loans, student loans, all these types of creditors are evaluated by the three bureaus. So they aggregate all the data, our payment history, our performance, how long we’ve had credit, so those are essentially the three bureaus that are kind of watching us, so to speak.

Tim Ulbrich: And I want to dig in a little bit further about the impact one’s credit score can have on their application, ultimately the interest rate in terms of they’re able to access. So before we look at the numbers, remind us the components of one’s credit score, Tony. I’m specifically thinking here about the FICO score.

Tony Umholtz: Yes. So you know, typically when we look at the FICO score — and we’re starting to see a re-emergence of other scoring models, but the primary driver of our credit scores is going to be our payment history. So payment history is by far the biggest driver of our credit score. So meaning on time payments, not having a 30-day delinquency. And I want to just touch on this for a minute because it’s something that’s come up a lot over my career, my nearly 20 years in the business is let’s just say — we just had this incident with one of my borrowers this past week where they did not get a credit card statement. They were selling their house prior to buying the new home they were buying. And he missed a credit card statement that came to the home. And if it’s over 30 days late, you’re reported to the bureaus. So if it’s 15 days late, you’re not reported to the bureaus as a delinquency. But if it’s over 30 days, then it becomes late. So it’s — that’s a question that comes up a lot. And unfortunately, it’s something we had to navigate here at the last minute.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh man.

Tony Umholtz: But payment history is the biggest driver. The next would be credit utilization. And that primarily is going to be driven on revolving credit accounts. And what I mean by revolving credit accounts is going to be your credit cards that you might have or lines of credit. And those are essentially going to be evaluated based upon how much you have borrowed on that card. For example, I always advise people to try to stay at 50-70% of their credit limits. And what that means — so let’s say you had a $10,000 credit limit on your credit card and you ran it up to $9,000 balance. Well, that’s going to report adversely to the creditors, credit bureaus. And remember, credit utilization is 30% weighting of your score. It’s a big weighting. But that’s the other really big driver of your credit history. Those two alone are like 65% of the weighting of what determines your credit. And then the next couple I would say, just to add in here, is length of credit history, you know, the longer you’ve had credit, good credit, the better that’s going to weigh on your score. That’s usually about a 15% driver. And then your credit mix is about a 10% driver. So the types of credit you have is very important too. You know, do you have experience with — you know, a lot of times, people will come in before they buy their first home and they have maybe a car loan, student loans, credit cards, but they haven’t had a mortgage yet. And a lot of times the mortgage will add more — a stronger credit mix. It would be viewed stronger because it’s a bigger installment loan. It’s a little tougher to get. And then the last driver of your score is inquiries. A lot of people will call me and say, “Tony, the inquiries really hurt my score, and I don’t want this to damage my score.” But they really have the least amount of impact on your score. If you go and have a tremendous amount of them at one time, that can hit your credit a little bit. But normally, a couple of inquiries isn’t going to have much of an impact.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and it sounds like, Tony, you mentioned several components here, but low hanging fruit, you mentioned payment history, so on-time payments, and then credit utilization, how much of that balance is used each month in terms of the revolving amount. Those two alone making up more than 60%. So you know, I think being in tune of if you’re looking to really optimize credit, I think of some tips here that folks may want to consider, specifically with payment history and on-time payments, something like automatic payments, right? Obviously we want to make sure we’ve got the funds to pay that money, you know, in the account that that’s coming from, but the example you gave of someone not getting a mailed statement, hopefully folks can get electronic statements, you know, as a backup to help prevent that. But something like automatic payments can really help make sure that we don’t have something like that happen, especially if you’re in the midst of purchasing a property where the timing of that is less than ideal. I would also point folks here to an episode, 162. Tim Baker and I talked about Credit 101, and what Tony just mentioned there of the makeup of a FICO score was one part of that discussion. But we also talked about credit security, the importance of understanding your credit, how credit really is a thread across the financial plan, and so credit being a very important topic as it relates to the financial planning process. Tony, I’m someone listening today, and I feel like I’ve got a good idea of my credit score. And the question that comes to mind here is how significant of an impact can this have on securing the best rates and terms? And so you know, what I’m thinking of here is 30-year mortgage, maybe because of a higher or lower credit score, we’re looking at maybe a quarter of a percent. And maybe that doesn’t look as much of a big deal on paper as it actually can be mathematically, so tell me about what the impact of this might be.

Tony Umholtz: Well, the longer term the loan is, the more impactful your credit history — your credit scores are going to be. So it’s a good point, Tim, because you know, for example, if you have a 710 score versus a 740, you’re going to get probably about an eighth to a quarter better rate on a 30-year loan having over a 740. Typically on most of our mortgages, over 740 does not get much more benefit.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Tony Umholtz: So a 740 score versus an 800 score isn’t going to see a huge benefit. Some of the jumbo loans that get over $550,000 may see a little bit more of a benefit because they have some pricing matrices — the matrix will go up to 780 or higher. But where you really see the impact is like if you’re under 700, right, and you’re at 660 versus even a 700, talking about a large margin risk profile added to the loan, especially on a 30-year fixed. One thing I do want to mention that I think it’s important is the shorter the term, especially on a 15-year fixed, the more flexibility you have with the credit score. So I’ve even had some customers that have been under 700 and it really impacted their 30-year rate, but the 15-year rate stayed the same because the hits don’t really adjust to that until you get even lower because a lower term, you’re paying back the loan faster.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that makes sense. And I would encourage folks, even though that may not seem significant, eighth of a percent, quarter of a percent, when you’re talking about Tony’s comment, a 30-year mortgage, $400,000 or $500,000 home, you know, that can start to add up in terms of obviously difference in monthly payment because of that interest as well as the difference in what you’re going to pay over the life of the loan. And here, we start to think about opportunity costs, right? Where else might that be used in other parts of the financial plan, whether it be investing, other debt repayment, and so forth. So now that we’ve talked about the makeup of the FICO and really understanding that score components and the impact that that might have, let’s talk about some of the common mistakes that you see, Tony, folks that make when they’re applying for really any loan but here, we’re going to talk about the pharmacist home loan a little bit more specifically. And the first one I have here is no or limited credit history. So we’ve been talking for the last five minutes or so about the importance that, you know, a higher credit score can have in getting more favorable rates and terms. So if someone’s listening and they have limited credit history or no credit history, what are the problems that can present themselves there? And what are some of the solutions that they can pursue?

Tony Umholtz: Well, it’s one of those things where especially if you’re young, it’s hard to come right in with very established credit. But I would suggest, I mean, just a couple points here. You know, one thing that — and I didn’t realize, and I’ll just take my own example. But I remember my first day, first month let’s just say, of my freshman year of college, there was a credit card company on campus where you could get a credit card, right? And being the finance major that I am, I was one of those guys that didn’t charge much but used it here and there. And it helped me with my credit history. And I’ve seen that. If you can get even a small credit card even in college, even if it’s got a couple hundred dollar limit, and you use it as a wise steward, right, you’re not out there running it up, I think that’s a great way to start building your credit. That really helped me because I had a solid credit score coming out of college. And I see that with other people too. Now, student loans being paid on time, that all helps as well because student loans will show up quickly too. I do have a situation now with a client that we’ve had to like rebuild their — they had no credit. They had zero credit history, right? So there’s no score. And that becomes a real challenge, especially — I mean, for example, the pharmacist home loan, we do — you don’t have to have a real in-depth credit history. You really can have a fairly young credit history, but you have to have a score. You know, we have to know what that score is. The only other option we have if you have no credit score that we have available is FHA where we essentially kind of have to build your credit history to some degree. But that’s kind of a rare thing these days. But that’s — every now and then, we run into that. I would just say to start building it early. Having some credit is not a bad thing. Just be responsible with it.

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, I’ve heard you say that before about for those that have no or limited credit history, the FHA is an option and building credit. Tell me more about what you mean by that.

Tony Umholtz: So when we say building credit, we essentially are using other types of forms — like for example, you might have paid auto insurance, right, or utility bills, or rent. We’re able to pull some of these other types of elements of payment history together to show responsibility and the ability to repay. So those are some of the things that we’ll actually use to build the credit history as well as we suggest to get a credit card or something to that effect to — depending on their timing and when they want to buy to start developing that so they can at least get a score. But having a score is pretty critical to get the best loans, you know. Really the only one that we have out there is FHA that will allow us to work without a credit score.

Tim Ulbrich: Got you. Another common mistake I’ve heard you mention is, you know, folks that might have purchased an appliance, piece of furniture, there’s several examples of this, on a 0% interest card and not realized the impact that that might have when they’re going through the lending process and purchasing a home. Tell us more about that.

Tony Umholtz: You know, this is another one, Tim, that I learned firsthand personally when I was young and lots of my — I’ve seen it many times over the years with my clients, but you know, I’ll give the example of buying furniture. Fortunately, I did this after I bought my home. I was 25 I think at the time. It was a long time ago. But essentially, I went into a furniture store, was able to buy all this furniture, and they said, “Hey, by the way, that $4,800 in furniture, we’ll give you a credit card where you don’t have to pay interest for over a year.” I said, “Well, that sounds great. Let’s do it.” And you won’t have to make payments for over a year. Well, unfortunately, how those credit cards work — and they’re in all sorts of retail goods. It’s not just furniture. There’s a lot of different promotions out there. It reports to the bureaus as a maxed-out credit card. So you know, a lot of electronics companies are the same way. They’ll offer this to you. And you’ve just got to beware because it’ll report to the bureaus as a maxed-out credit card. And as we discussed, 30% of our weighting of our credit score is based upon credit utilization. If we show a maxed-out credit card, that’s going to be a big hit to our score. And I see that a lot. It’s unfortunate. But it comes up a lot.

Tim Ulbrich: And you taught me that, Tony. I did not know that that was often viewed as a maxed-out credit card. So obviously what we just learned about FICO and utilization, that makes a whole lot of sense of the impact that that could have. So we talked about no or limited credit history, we talked about buying an appliance or piece of furniture or something like that on a 0% card. The other thing I’ve heard you mention several times — and I think we’re seeing more and more as folks are using more of these tools — would be relying on a third-party credit app or tool, whether it be something like CreditKarma, CreditSesame, when we’re relying on that for credit score information that may not match up necessarily with what you’re seeing on the lending side. Is that correct?

Tony Umholtz: That’s right, Tim. Yeah. That’s right. And I think this is an important topic because there’s a lot of variables out there. And I don’t want to say that these like a CreditKarma and some of the other apps and trackers aren’t legitimate and helpful. They certainly are. And they give you a good idea of the trend of your credit score and how you’re performing. The one thing I would caution everyone on, though, is it’s not typically indicative of what your score is to a creditor. Now, mortgage companies in particular, we run what’s called a tri-merge report, which is all three bureaus. So we’re going to see Equifax, Experian, and Transunion’s, each of them give us a score, provide us a score. And we take the median score. So mortgage lenders take the media score where — and the same thing would apply for like a commercial loan if you’re getting commercial loan for a building or something of substance. An auto company, if you’re buying a car, will often just pull one. So they may just pull Experian, right? Or Equifax. So you know, a lot of times there is a little bit of variability in our scores. And they can be different. Our Equifax score could be potentially be 750, our Experian could be 739, and our Transunion might be 730. Well in that case, you’re at 739, not over 740. And that’s where I see the mistake come up because a lot of these trackers will show you a score that’s a little higher than what we would see. And a lot of my customers send me — my clients will say, “Hey, here’s my report, here’s my credit score.” And it’s oftentimes a lot different than what we pull. But I think there’s a lot coming on scores over the next couple years. I think you’ll see different ways of risk assessment. It hasn’t hit us yet, but I think rental performance will come into play more too. It’s important to always pay our rents on time. You know, traditionally that didn’t always come up on reports. But I think there’s going to be some other elements that are going to potentially help us. And I think you’ll see that the medical collections take less weight on the reports. We’re already seeing that too, which is really a blessing for a lot of people that have had things happen.

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, I can see this playing out. You know, you gave a good example where somebody might be on that line, let’s say a 740, and they think because of what they see on CreditKarma or CreditSesame that they’re going to be above that and then come to find out that they’re not, and that obviously can have a surprise and be an impact on rates. And you know, I’m sure — it reminds me of the patient that might walk through the doors of the pharmacy and be upset with the pharmacist because of what they get through claims adjudication on the insurance side. And the pharmacist is often not deciding that price, but the reality is they’re the person that’s in front of the patient. And I suspect here, that can be much of the same where they may be surprised and take it out on you guys sometimes.

Tony Umholtz: It happens.

Tim Ulbrich: It happens, right?

Tony Umholtz: We’re the messenger.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. It’s an emotional process.

Tony Umholtz: It is. One thing that we find that’s been helping too is we have a tool as part of our platform here that can actually tell — we can see what credit — what the scoring potential for a client based upon activities they could do to their report such as paying down debt, consolidating a card or whatever it might be. So it actually — we are able to a lot of times add some value to help people get their scores a little higher. We’ve had a lot of success with that.

Tim Ulbrich: The next one I have here, Tony, is borrowers that may not be checking their credit reports and therefore identifying and correcting any errors that could lead to higher rates. And this one is really something that I find interesting. You know, I do an activity in a personal finance course that I teach where I have folks actually go out, pull their credit reports, analyze them, and then they write a reflection on kind of what they learned. And the trends I have found is that about 50% of the students No. 1, have never checked credit before, have never run a credit report. And then the number of folks that are surprised by what they find on that credit report. So any insights here, even any examples that come to mind of where this can be problematic, especially when you’re in the midst of trying to secure a loan and secure a loan at the best rate?

Tony Umholtz: I think it’s really important for everyone to take advantage of the free credit reports that are out there. You know, the annualcreditreport.com. You’re allowed to have one copy from each bureau per year. And I think that’s something that we all need to do. And the surprises I think are hey, I thought I canceled that credit card years ago, right? And sometimes having open credit — it doesn’t hurt you. But you may not want to have a whole bunch of things out there just from a fraud risk potential. But — and making sure that you’re not attached to things you don’t want to be attached to. You just — in this day and age, you never know, and especially if you get into partnerships and cosigning and things like that, you’ve got to be really careful about what you’re attached to and knowing what entities your credit, you’re attached to. That’s one thing I would just caution because I’ve seen some problems come up with cosigning and people not being aware that they did or applications from everything from student loans to auto loans to business loans. And then just there is a lot of fraud out there, you know? And I think that I’m on LifeLock. I’m not trying to promote anything, I just, I’ve put that on me and my wife’s accounts just so we know what’s going on, right, in case anything ever were to happen we’d be made aware. But certainly would encourage everyone to do that. And you know, I think just knowing what’s out there. I know when I did it one time, I had a credit card that I hadn’t used in like 6-7 years and it was still open, right? If you don’t use it, might want to close it.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m glad you mentioned the cosigner because I do think that’s something that we hear and see often from the community, whether that’s student loans, whether that’s auto loans, whatever be the situation, obviously there’s a potential risk there of late payments, somebody may or may not be aware of that and the impact that that could have during the credit and obviously impact that could have on your credit and then the surprise that could present during the lending process. Tony, last one I want to talk about here before we wrap up by talking about the pharmacist home loan product is applying for credit before sale is final. And I think many of us who have gone through this process, we’ve gotten the advice of, do as little as you can in terms of new credit or inquiries or anything during this process. But give us some more details, not only why is this important but what is the time period that we should be thinking about this because I sense that there are listeners out there that might be buying a home and also be thinking about refinancing their loans, for example.

Tony Umholtz: Right. And this one is really important, guys, if you’re in process for a home loan because us lenders, we know what you’ve applied for during the process. We’re notified if you secure a new loan. So for example, one that comes up a lot is a new auto loan, a — furniture for the home. I’ve seen that quite a bit. And a lot of our clients are proactive and ask the question first. And we will look and see. If it’s something like hey, my car absolutely won’t work anymore, I need to get a new one, we’ll look and see, will that impact you. We’ll include that new payment into your numbers so it doesn’t affect your home closing. But normally, you want to try to postpone any activity, new credit, when you’re in the mortgage process until after you close just because there’s a lot of risk there, right? It’s a big transaction. You do not want to jeopardize it with new credit because we do know about it. We will know. We are notified if you open anything up. And that’s a really important point if you’re in the process. So I would just caution everyone to be very careful with that. And I will give the classic example. Before they tracked, this is going back probably 2005, I remember I went to this closing for a client of mine, and it was a fairly nice home. And he goes, “Hey, Tony, look at my new car I bought last week!” And the guy had bought a new Porsche, right? This is before we had the trackers. I’m like, don’t tell me this. Oh, don’t tell me that. But anyway, nowadays, we do know what activity has happened. And be very careful. And if you have to do something, just speak to your lender first before you officially apply for any other types of credit during the process.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that’s where my mind was going, Tony, just knowing the examples that might come here, right? It could be credit, we talked about some of these already, furniture, appliances, student loans, auto loans. Like there’s a lot of things that could come up here, and I think just open communication with the lender if you have questions to make sure that you’re not doing anything that’s going to jeopardize obviously, again, the goal here being that we get the best loan at the best term, you know, and ultimately the best rate so that we can keep the cost of interest low throughout the life of the loan. So Tony, we’ve talked about the makeup of the FICO score, understanding what feeds into that score. We talked about the impact that that could have on someone’s rate and their ability to secure that competitive rate. We talked about some of the common mistakes that you see folks making around credit in the home buying. And I think this is a good connection to the pharmacist home loan product. And I know many of our community members are familiar with this from previous episodes, information we have on the website, but for folks that are hearing this for the first time, give us some more information about the pharmacist home loan, what is it, how it’s different from other options that are out there in terms of down payment, PMI, minimum credit scores, and so forth.

Tony Umholtz: Sure. I mean, again, just a great tool for pharmacists to purchase a home. And the main points of it is you’re able to buy a home — if you’re a first-time home buyer, you could put down as little as 3% and have no PMI. And if you’ve owned a home before, it’s 5% down with no PMI. And that’s significant savings not having the MI but also the interest rates tend to be better than I can offer with a 20% down normal conventional loan for someone else, which is quite a nice opportunity for people. And the minimum credit score is 700. So it doesn’t have like a super high credit threshold. And it’s flexible on reserves and things like that. You know, some programs have very strict reserve requirements, and this one has some flexibility there, has some flexibility on how we value student loans, and you don’t have to be — you know, one of the other things that a lot of doctor loan programs have out there is some of them have restrictions if you’ve been out of residency for 10 years, you can’t use the product. This one does not have those limitations. So it’s — it’s been a great tool for a lot of people. And we’re very pleased that we can offer it.

Tim Ulbrich: And we’ll put Tony’s contact information in the show notes for folks that want to reach out to Tony directly. Also, if you haven’t already done so, make sure to check out — we’ve got a great comprehensive post, very informational, that I think you’ll find helpful, “Five Steps to Getting a Home Loan.” And you can — in that blog post, which we’ll link to in the show notes — learn more about the pharmacist home loan product. We’ve got some calculators there as well. And that’s available at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s “Five Steps to Getting a Home Loan” at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan. Tony, as always, appreciate your insights, your expertise in this area, and thank you for the time coming on the show.

Tony Umholtz: Hey, Tim, thanks for having me. It was great to be here.

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