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YFP 196: How Cory Uses Improv to Create a Better Healthcare Experience

Posted on March 25, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How Cory Uses Improv to Create a Better Healthcare Experience

On this episode sponsored by Insuring Income, pharmacist, improv comedian, and motivational speaker, Cory Jenks, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about how and why he got started with this side hustle, how it has improved his ability to connect with his patients, and how you, as a pharmacist, can apply the valuable skills of improv comedy to create a more adaptable, empathetic, and humanizing healthcare experience.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Cory Jenks earned his PharmD from the University of South Carolina in 2011 and completed a PGY1 residency at the Southern Arizona VA Healthcare System in 2012. His past pharmacy experience has included time as a retail pharmacist, outpatient clinical pharmacist, and inpatient clinical pharmacist. Currently, he practices as an Ambulatory Care Clinical Pharmacy Specialist where he applies his passion for lifestyle interventions in the management of chronic disease. Cory is also an accomplished improv comedian, having started on his comedy journey in 2013. Since then, Cory has coached, taught, and performed improv for thousands of people. Today, Cory travels the country (or at least Zooms around) teaching other healthcare professionals how to apply the valuable skills of improv comedy to create a more adaptable, empathetic, and humanizing healthcare experience. When not working or performing improv, Cory enjoys playing racquetball, basketball, and golf, exploring the science of disease management through lifestyle, and is currently earning his Master’s Degree in “Dad Jokes” with the help of his two sons Jacob and Henry.

Summary

On this episode, pharmacist, improv comedian, and motivational speaker, Cory Jenks, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about his side hustle in improv comedy. Cory details his journey in improv as a curious student, his experience as an improv coach, instructor, and performer, and how improv comedy aligns with his profession as a pharmacist. Through his various stages of development as an improv comedian, Cory noticed his ability to more easily connect with his patients, and his professional satisfaction as a pharmacist grew.

Cory walks through the mental shift to positive from negative, outlining the importance of applying the improv 101 phrase, ‘yes, and…’ in his life as a pharmacist. Because of the skills learned through improv, Cory tells us that instead of dreading difficult cases or patients, he began to see each experience like a puzzle to solve.

Cory further explains how, not only his own experiences with improv but also the experiences of those around him and those who he has taught, have inspired and motivated him to share exactly how improv comedy can be applied in the healthcare professions. Through nationwide workshop facilitation and public speaking events, Cory is able to reach healthcare professionals with his message – to create a more adaptable, empathetic, and humanizing healthcare experience. He notes that balance, an open line of communication with his wife, and the ability to dedicate time to his passion projects have contributed to his success.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Cory, welcome back to the show.

Cory Jenks: Hey, thanks for having me. It’s a thrill, it’s an honor, it’s a privilege, and I’m excited to be back.

Tim Ulbrich: Glad to have you back. And last time we had on the show was Episode 134, which aired in January 2020. Hard to believe more than a year ago, and a lot has happened since January 2020. Who would have known at that point we had a global pandemic in front of us? And in that episode, we talked about the journey that you and Cassie were taking towards Coast FI and some of the steps that you had taken or been putting in place towards financial independence. So how are you guys doing? What’s new? Give us the update.

Cory Jenks: Well, everything went according to plan, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Cory Jenks: It’s like, we’ve got this podcast recorded, we’re going to have a great 2020. It’s our year. And then COVID hit. But I think all things considered, we really have counted our blessings. I think being in a strong place financially set us up to weather that storm as well as we could, had hoped for. We had our second kid in June.

Tim Ulbrich: Congratulations.

Cory Jenks: Good time to have a kid, right in the middle of a pandemic, right? We’re home anyway, so we have to hang out with them. And I had a chance to continue to work and grow on my little business, which I think we’re going to talk about today. And Cassie’s had the opportunity to drop back further into a part-time role. So that was what that Coast FI journey allowed us to do was to reduce some of that income from her to spend more time with the kids. And she actually got an opportunity to work a little extra on a different, more passion project working on lifestyle for disease management and diabetes reversal. So that’s something that she’s been starting in the last few months that being able to go to part-time has afforded her the opportunity to pursue that passion. So guiltily good. We’re guiltily good in this 2021 now.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, we will link back to Episode 134 in the show notes. And I hope our listeners will take a listen back to your journey, really an inspiring one. And when we talk about financial independence or even FIRE at large, standing for Financial Independence Retire Early, I think sometimes we think about it as a finish line. And really, it’s more about the journey. It’s a trajectory. And I think about your story as an example of that trajectory, of that evolution. And so we’re going to talk to you about what that has allowed you guys to do as a family. Obviously a lot has changed, the addition to your family obviously with Cassie’s role changing, the work that you’re doing with ImprovRx, and all of that is in part possible because of the steps that you have taken related to the financial plan. So excited to talk about your side hustle, ImprovRx, and the work that you’re doing to help other healthcare professionals create a more adaptable, empathetic and humanizing healthcare experience. So before we dive into the nitty gritty of ImprovRx, remind us about your pharmacy journey, where you went to school, the work that you’re currently doing now, and even the other work that you have done as a pharmacist prior to your current role.

Cory Jenks: Sure, yeah. So I am coming up on my 1-year anniversary of graduating from the University of South Carolina, so go Gamecocks.

Tim Ulbrich: Go Gamecocks.

Cory Jenks: I’m wearing my Gamecock Pharmacy sweatshirt for all the — this is an audio podcast, so perfect segue there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, I can see it here.

Cory Jenks: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it’s a beautiful garment color. So graduated 2011, and I grew up in Tucson, so I went out to South Carolina for pharmacy school because I just loved student loans and out-of-state tuition. And I ended up coming back to Tucson to do a residency here at the VA in Tucson, where I have been ever since. I’ve worked anywhere from in ambulatory care, inpatient pharmacy, I’m back in ambulatory care now as a clinical pharmacy specialist doing chronic disease management. So really cool job, getting to help manage patients’ health. And I have a real passion for helping sort of reverse the chronic disease, not just manage them but do my best to get patients off their meds and living a healthy life. And in between, I’ve worked a little bit of retail, I’ve worked in a community health center. And so I’ve kind of — it’s like the Johnny Cash song, I’ve been everywhere in pharmacy. So yeah, that’s where I find myself today in my day job.

Tim Ulbrich: And we’re going to make that connection here in a little bit for folks that are wondering, we’re going to provide that bridge between improv comedy and the healthcare practitioner and how that relates to the experience for the patient. Now, I know some funny pharmacists, Cory, but I don’t think about pharmacists and comedy that often and the two of those coming together. So give us the back story. Why improv comedy? Why did you start it? What drew you to that area? And tell us a little bit about the work that you’re doing.

Cory Jenks: Sure. So growing up, I loved Simpsons, I loved Saturday Night Live, I loved watching comedy. And so this was back before you could DVR stuff. You young punks in pharmacy school with your on-demand and your DVRs, so you had to watch the show on Saturday or Sunday night, and you’d talk about it with your friends the next day.

Tim Ulbrich: That is right.

Cory Jenks: And I loved it. And I mean, I enjoyed school, good at science, pretty bad at sports, that’s why I pursued pharmacy and not trying to play baseball. But always had this love of comedy. It’s always been a part of my life that I think as a pharmacist, a good laugh really is good medicine and something I enjoyed. And in undergrad and pharmacy school, there was an improv group at the University of South Carolina that I went and saw once, was like, ‘Oh my gosh, that’s amazing.’ And I didn’t do it because I was very committed to my academics. So I kind of put that dream and enjoyment on hold but always kept that sort of fire for comedy. And then when I finished my residency in 2012, Cassie was like, ‘Hey, you’re just kind of hanging around. You have this time on your hands. What do you want to do with it?’ And so I had a birthday coming up, and so I said, ‘Well, I’ve always been interested in trying to play the guitar or do improv comedy.’ So give me one of those two lessons or classes for my birthday. And so if you heard me play guitar, you would probably assume I did the improv. And that is correct. So it was 2013, I took my first improv class. And it was a local theater here where I live in Tucson. So just starting up, so the guy who’s now one of my best friends was — took a class, took another, and it was a matter of, ‘Hey, you have a pulse and you’ve taken these classes. We need people to perform. I’m trying to grow this theater. Do you want to do it?’ Yes. Love it. Let’s do it. Perform, get on stage, and it’s really a thrill. I had a ton of fun performing it. And then eventually, ‘Hey, Cory, you’ve been doing this a couple years. Can you help me teach my classes?’ Because he was scaling his business. So sure, I love teaching this. And so I got a chance to learn the intricacies of teaching it. And eventually, it was, ‘Cory, I need someone to run my comedy school. You’re a very organized pharmacist. Use those skills to organize my curriculum.’ Sure, let’s do it, would love to do that. And then while I was doing this and sort of bringing my wife back into it, she’s the real superhero of the whole story. She was in nurse practitioner school. She was busy every night, so I got my improv Master’s degree during her Master’s degree of her getting her nurse practitioner degree. So I was down at the theater 4, 5, 6 nights a week coaching, teaching, performing. And it’s a blast. It was fun. And along the way, I realized that these skills that I learned as an improv comedian, listening, communication, teamwork, empathy, all of these soft skills that we sort of talk about but don’t really find a way to teach or measure became better. I was connecting with patients, I was adapting, I was feeling like I was a better listener. And so as we had our first kid in 2018, as much as I enjoyed being down at the theater performing for 5-10 people in a very small crowd sometimes, the heat of the Tucson summer, I would get paid to teach classes but not quite the rate as a pharmacist, if that makes — if I’m making sense there. So and when you’re away from your kid and your family, you want to make sure you’re really getting a lot out of it. Not that I didn’t get a ton out of it, but I was kind of thinking like, what’s my next step with improv? How can I push this to another level? And auditioning for Saturday Night Live is just on the cards because I’m not moving to LA or New York or Chicago, abandoning the family to pursue this dream, which I don’t — it would be cool if I somehow SNL. I think I’d have to be some sort of unlikely national hero of something to be famous enough to do it, but then I realized, oh, I’m a pharmacist. It’s helped me as a pharmacist be better. What if I push it in this direction of applying it to healthcare? And so that’s where I found myself a couple years ago as I started the business of speaking and doing workshops.

Tim Ulbrich: I love the creativity in finding something that you were passionate about and connecting it to your skill set and experience and what you are trained to be doing as a pharmacist. I think sometimes we talk about side hustles or businesses, sometimes they’re connected, sometimes they’re not. And I think probably many folks like myself when I first heard about you and the work that you’re doing with ImprovRx, I was trying to find the connection, trying to see where that connection may be. And like yes, we can always use an extra lap, but when we talk about enriching our experience and interactions with patients and enriching the healthcare system at large, we all know there’s a lot of room for improvement. We’ve all been through it as a patient, perhaps some at the different levels than others. So I really start to see the connection of how pharmacists can benefit from some of the skills and training that we’ll get to hear about in a little bit. So dig a little bit deeper for a second on the connection between improv comedy and the ability to connect with patients as well as just your professional satisfaction as a provider. You mentioned some of the softer skills, but take me in the room. You know, Cory, I’m working in ambulatory care, I’m seeing patients, how do you begin to apply this personally in your patient care encounters?

Cory Jenks: Yes, so improv is actually — I would consider it very similar to a healthcare encounter.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Cory Jenks: And here’s why. So taking it a step back, when I go and practice improv when we’re not in a pandemic and can gather, I tell my parents, ‘Hey, I’m going to rehearse improv.’ And they’d say, ‘Cory, it’s all made up. What are you rehearsing?’ And I’d say, ‘Fair point. But improv, like a sport, you have specific skills.’ Like basketball, you ought to practice dribbling. You ought to practice defense. You’ve got to practice your — if you’re me, you’re practicing your slam dunks all day long. You’re just flying above the rim, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Cory Jenks: Well, with improv, we’re practicing characters, voices, playing on teams’ different format of improvisation. Like I perform on an improv hip hop team. I rap. I do improvised rapping. Much like an improv scene, we do have certain rules within improv. And I don’t need to get into the weeds of that, but there are rules within improv that help guide us in these scenes. Well, sports you have specific rules and then in healthcare, obviously we have this specific set of rules. But with improv scene, every basketball game, every interaction with a patient, anything can happen within that timeframe. No two basketball games are the same. No two improv scenes are the same. And certainly no two patient encounters are ever the same. So you’re able to take those skills of listening, being 100% in the moment, and adapting to what that patient is telling you and continue to provide them the best outcome. One of my best examples of this was one of my patients I was managing for diabetes. And he came to the room, was just demanding a prostate exam so he could get Viagra. Like this was just his connection. He was told he needed to get that checked out to get his Viagra. And I — how do I navigate — like I never had that question on a test in pharmacy school. No one gave me the “patient demanding prostate exam, what do you do?” but also continue to do the job that you’re assigned to do, which is manage their blood sugars but also make sure that he’ll trust you in the future to take care of what you need to do. And so pardon the graphic example of the patient, but the way I was able to navigate it, I was — the two words of improv are ‘yes, and.’ Those are the basic words. If you ever want a free lesson, ‘yes, and’ are the two words. We agree and build together. So how can I say yes to this patient who’s wanting a prostate exam from me, a pharmacist, who decidedly went into pharmacy so I did not have to do exams like that? And so I said, “Yes, I could give you a prostate exam. And you wouldn’t like it, and I wouldn’t like it. And you wouldn’t get the meds you want.’ So let’s focus on your blood sugar, and you talk to your doctor about that prostate exam. He said, “That’s great idea. Let’s do it.” So it was a way to connect with him without fighting him, right? I think a lot of times consumers, we as consumers will fight with the healthcare system. We agree, we get on the same page, and we work together as a team with your patient rather than seeing it as an adversarial issue when they bring something off the wall to your office.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, and I love that. What a tangible takeaway for folks that are interacting with patients. So is ‘yes, and,’ is that like a staple of improv comedy, improv training? Like when you’re teaching that and you saw that connection with the healthcare, is that something that’s commonplace?

Cory Jenks: Literally like Day 1 of Improv 101, you learn this idea of ‘yes, and.’

Tim Ulbrich: Really?

Cory Jenks: So if you’re doing an improv scene and then you say to me, “Hey, we’re on the moon and it’s so beautiful.” And I say, “No, we’re not. We’re in a bounce house,” well, I’ve completely negated your reality. We have to rebuild everything. And so that scene grinds to a halt, the energy stops. And I have to explain why I thought we maybe we’re on the moon. But if I say, “Yes, and it’s so beautiful up here,” or, “Yes, and we only have 30 seconds of oxygen left,” we’ve now agreed to our reality, built on a detail or a consequence and have gone down this journey together rather than trying to fight and have this adversarial reaction. And in healthcare, that’s what we’re doing. We want to build together in the moment. That’s all we’re doing with our patient. So to get the outcome, improv is to get a laugh, with our patients it’s to optimize their health. And I also am a big proponent of the experience because we don’t get to control their health all the time. Sometimes the diagnosis is beyond our control. So we can at least agree to their reality and build together.

Tim Ulbrich: I love that. And one of the questions I like to ask folks — and especially, Cory, of the journey like you’ve had is when you have such a clearly defined vision of where you are going and you have obviously thought a lot about how this interest in improv comedy can connect to patients and create a better healthcare experience, that doesn’t just happen without a specific passion, without a motivation or without a why, whatever you want to call it. Was there an “Aha!” moment when you realized that you could help other healthcare professionals have a similar experience, develop their skills to better their connection with patients and ultimately better the healthcare system? We know there can be improvement there as well as improving their own satisfaction as a healthcare provider. One of the things we hear, of course, from healthcare providers, you know, I’ve lived it, you’ve lived it more than I have, I talk with many pharmacists, physicians, veterinarians, etc., I hear, “You know what, I’m burned out.” And so there is also this piece of provider satisfaction in addition to the patient experience. So what was that “Aha!” moment for you where you saw this connection?

Cory Jenks: I’ve just done all of this talk of ‘yes, and’ and how I would agree with you. And I have to say, it wasn’t so much an “Aha!” moment as a slow boil or a slow burn. In my own professional life, I started to realize like I didn’t come home as cranky. I enjoyed the — like when someone would give you, ‘This patient is difficult,’ I stopped saying, “Oh no,” and started saying, “Cool. What are we going to do here?” Right? It’s that mindset shift that it comes — it’s solving a fun puzzle versus dreading not having the answer. So I think that was part of the puzzle. My wife Cassie went through improv training and she was like, “Oh, wow, this is really useful as in my career as a nurse practitioner. I enjoy this.” And then I’ve had — we’ve had nurses and I have a physician who’s now a friend here in Tucson that went through the training. And his like, he was like pure “Aha!” Like every class was like, “Oh my gosh, I could use this with my patients. Oh my gosh, I’m too left-brained. Oh my gosh, I need to say yes more.” And so I think seeing the light bulbs go off in those that I have taught through our classes in Tucson, I mean, you get all walks of life. You get — in our theater, we joke we have a rocket scientist. He’s an engineer. We have nurses, lawyers. But then we have the typical theater artistic folks who live with that right brain a bit more. But it’s just that consistent reaction from people who buy into the ‘yes, and’ philosophy. So I really see it as more of a philosophy than just a rule of improv. I try to live that ‘yes, and’ life as much as I can. But seeing those light bulbs and “Aha!” moments is just energizing back to me. And I realized, oh, this is an opportunity to take what I do 40 hours a week and what I do on the weekends and improve that 40-hour life, not just for myself but I think we could do something for the other people that, as you say, we struggle. Healthcare is hard. Like, to everyone listening, kudos to you. We have hard jobs. It’s OK. Admit it. So how can we make those jobs a little less hard and a little more rewarding? And I think this is one of those avenues to find that satisfaction.

Tim Ulbrich: So I have to ask as a father myself, you know, I suspect dad jokes are a regular. Is that fair? I mean, are the dad jokes getting better? Are they getting worse? Where do the dad jokes come in?

Cory Jenks: I give myself like a 6.5 out of 10. So like the littlest one just turned 9 months old, so he just sort of like, I smile at him and he laughs. So the bar is low for him. And my 3-year-old is just getting a little sense of humor and a little playfulness. But I can make Cassie’s eyes roll pretty good with a lot of my dad joke humor. And just kind of circling back to what you said, you say you don’t know many funny pharmacists. The interesting thing about improv is that you don’t have to be funny to be good at it. I think improv is perfectly suited for pharmacists because it requires you to listen, be in the moment. And if you are smart, which pharmacists objectively are very smart, you can be really good at improv because you learn the patterns, you learn the rules. And as kind of left-brainy pharmacist as that sounds, once you learn that, you can play up and find the funny. You can develop that sense of humor. And so if you’re listening to this at home saying, ‘Well, I’m not funny,’ first off ‘yes, and,’ yes, you can be funny. You can do this. And so that’s my bit of pushback. I think that the smartest people make some of the best improvisers. So just brushing my shoulder off here.

Tim Ulbrich: So this connection of obviously bringing your interest in improv comedy or experience as a healthcare practitioner, your opportunity is, I suspect, as a patient, perhaps a caregiver, other experiences, recognizing that this could be done better. Insert ImprovRx, so an opportunity to train other healthcare professionals. So let’s talk about more of what you’re doing with ImprovRx. What do you offer? You mentioned to me before we hit record that you’re going to be doing an upcoming session for a Rho Chi induction. So give me some examples of things like that. What would it look like to the person in the room when you’re doing a workshop? What does this experience look like for pharmacy students?

Cory Jenks: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Give us some more of the nitty gritty of what these types of sessions would include.

Cory Jenks: Definitely. So I offer basically — I’m an improviser, so I can adapt to whatever session or issue or event you’d like. But I can do a good old fashioned speech or a talk on it where I’m talking to your crowd, revving you up, inspiring you, pretty much what I’m doing with the audience today, just giving you just a bunch of motivation and excitement about what improv can —

Tim Ulbrich: I’m ready to go.

Cory Jenks: Yeah, like I’m glad there’s no brick walls in front of you because you might run through it.

Tim Ulbrich: That is great.

Cory Jenks: But I think my bread and butter really are the workshops. So what I do with those is I provide, depending on the workshop — and I have a menu of those depending on what the event calls for, what the particular organization wants. So I could either get right into some basic rules and we just get in and play. And what we do is we have the participants doing improv within 10 minutes. You’re doing scenes, you’re building things together. And then what we do, regardless of those different workshops, is we break down what happened in those scenes. What happened with those skills? What made them work well? What didn’t work well? And then how do we turn this into making ourselves better healthcare professionals. So how are you going to take what you did during this particular game and utilize it to be more in the moment with your patients? And so whether it’s something where we jump right into the improv or whether we do a little bit of background, a little presentation on some of the literature that supports — because ImprovRx is evidence-based comedy. There is literature supporting the use of role play and improv in education and pharmacy and medicine. So we’re pharmacists. We like to have that data to show that what we’re doing is worthwhile. And so there is — so I can dig into the data, give you the good background, and then we jump into the fun. And what I think the most important thing that comes from this is that people are going and taking risks, they’re trying new things, and there’s no consequences. Like in pharmacy school, for example, you can take a test and if you fail the test, you fail the test, right? In improv, if you do a scene that’s not funny, the scene is over, we move on, it’s disposable comedy. It’s beautiful. And you can learn that lesson in the moment. And I think that’s something that students — it’s really resonated with students because they are under pressure 24/7, get the grades, go to residency, get your job, get your student loans paid to tie it back here to YFP. So for an hour, we’re going to try something. It could be difficult. We’re going to be growing some skills. But the thing that I love — and I’ve been doing all these virtually right now because of COVID — is I’m looking at my screen and I see smiles on faces of students trying new things that are hard. And when do we have those moments in life where we get to try something and have fun doing it? And I think that’s the — like at worst, we come out of this having fun. And at best, you have fun, you challenge yourself, and you realize that those limiting beliefs that I’m not funny, that I can’t listen, that I can’t create, are not true because there’s so much more lurking — in a good way — inside of all of us as healthcare professionals that are waiting to be there to help our patients.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, I’m connecting back to my experiences in academia and even as a student where while we have come a long way in providing I would say more digestible learning experiences for students in terms of not as high risk of assessments, making things more spread out, smaller, lower risk and so forth to help foster the learning experience and take some of the anxiety out of it and an effort to try to help students manage stress and other things that they have going on, I suspect for pharmacy students listening, they would still say it’s a very pressure-inducing environment. And you can see it among students currently. They feel the stakes are high. And they certainly can be in a session like this and see value from this. And I can see it happening in a classroom, in a student organization event, as a part of another event on campus, whatever that would look like, where there’s just an opportunity to grow, to have professional development, but to have fun and to do it in a safe place. I mean, what an incredible experience. So if I’m tracking with you correctly, Cory, these hands-on workshops that you described as kind of your bread-and-butter type of offering would be provided to a college of pharmacy or offered at a national organization or a state organization or an organization like Rho Chi. Is that correct?

Cory Jenks: Perfect. Yeah, exactly. Those are all places that I’ve done this. I’ve done it at a state association, I’ve done it at a national meeting for a — I’ll be doing one at a national meeting for a pharmacy organization here in a few weeks. And I’ve done them in a small group with Rho Chi. And one thing that I actually did too was a pharmacy residency. So something — you think of pharmacy residents that the high stakes, the pressure —

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Cory Jenks: So teaching them adaptability, some resilience, and having fun while doing it. So I had a lot of fun doing this with some pharmacy residents as well, doing it virtually, playing together and learning these skills in like a very — I hate to say zero gravity environment because it kind of — I don’t want to cheapen what I’m doing, but it’s just from a world where if you’re a pharmacy resident and you’re in training and you’re taking care of patients, like the stakes are incredibly high. It’s life and death, real life and death. So here’s a way to get a step away from the life and death but be more effective when those stakes are high and you need to communicate with that doctor in a life-or-death situation or that patient in a life-or-death situation.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, what is the reaction? You know, I’m thinking of my experiences with pharmacy students or other pharmacists and depending on where they are at, I can see that some might really get into this type of experience, others maybe kind of skeptical, maybe others warming up to it over time. What kind of reaction do you get from the audience during these sessions?

Cory Jenks: The beautiful thing is that it’s different with every session. So I’ve worked with student groups that they’re a little more tentative, they’re a little more self-conscious, and so it takes a little bit of we’ll say prompting from the organizer or the school to send me a private message on Zoom and say, “Hey, call on Davey or Suzy,” or whatever. And then they’re like, “Oh no!” And then there are some where it’s like they can’t get enough. Like, ‘We only have an hour? I want to go and I want to go again, I want to go again.’ And then there are the ones that they’re like, they’re really uncertain, but they do it. And then they realize, oh my goodness, that was fun. I did a great job. I had that in me. And so it’s like I said, everyone is going to be different. And that’s what makes it fun for me is that every group presents its own challenges. Some of them it’s like, we’ve got to slow this energy down, we’ve got to give someone else a chance. And some it’s like, OK, it will be more work to get you to come out of that shell. That is OK. That is my job. Let’s do it. Challenge accepted.

Tim Ulbrich: Which I think is a whole separate skill set, one I’m guessing you are continuing to hone and develop upon. I mean, there’s an art to it I think, interacting with folks, drawing things out of them, creating the experience and the environment that gives the best shot of participants engaging in the material. But it just depends sometimes on the group, on the culture, what is going to have those types of interactions, what’s going to lead to those types of interactions. And I can’t just roll by the fact that, Cory, we’re in the midst of a global pandemic where you are really just warming up to the work that you’re doing and things like traveling and being able to engage with other organizations and along the way comes a global pandemic, which I would suspect brings things like travel to a grinding halt. So for me to jump on to Zoom and to do a talk about personal finance, yeah, I would love to be there in person, but we can make it work at the end of the day. The information is the information. And I’ll try to do my best to inspire folks in that environment. Now, this, the work that you’re doing, feels like the experience that you would have with the learners in the room is so important to the outcome of the event. So talk to me about how you have been able to pivot with Zoom, with obviously what’s going on with the pandemic, and how you’ve been able to be flexible and the mindset that has allowed you to continue to press on despite the limitations that have been brought on by the pandemic.

Cory Jenks: So yeah, it’s a great, great point. I picked a wonderful year to decide to be a speaker, right? But don’t worry, what I speak on is drawn entirely out of what the energy in the room is. So no, I think that’s — you mentioned like the mindset. So one of the things we talk about in improv is that there are no mistakes, only gifts. So you don’t go to an improv show, watch it and say, “Well, they messed that line up there.” It’s not like a play where you’re expecting. You don’t know it’s going to happen. And so a good improviser will take whatever happens, whether it’s the tech person talking over your scene on a microphone, which has happened to me before, and turning it into some sort of narration of their life, we turn it into a gift. And so this past year of having to do everything remote, well, I’m an improviser. I teach adaptability. If I couldn’t adapt, you shouldn’t be dealing with me. And so I’ve been able to adapt the exercises to the Zoom or the virtual platform. It’s more of a challenge — like it is more of a challenge to get people engaged and involved, especially it’s very easy to have people just like, I want to turn my camera off and hang out on Zoom. So you have to work harder. Like in a way, it is harder to do to be able to do this virtually. But I have adapted the message, I have adapted the games, I’ve adapted the activities to make it much more interactive for those participants, even though we’re virtual. And in the world of seeing things as gifts rather than mistakes or problems, I will not anger your entire audience and say, “COVID’s been a great gift,” right? It’s been terrible for many people, myself included. Everyone has been affected by this. However, the gift of doing things virtually has allowed me to maybe reach some groups that I would not have been able to reach before. Doing Zoom sessions across the country from here in Tucson when the travel costs might have been prohibitive for a small organization. Well, you don’t have that barrier now. So I get to interact with your students, I get to share this message. And so the ability to adapt is baked into what I do. And so it’s been fun having that chance to adapt to see how these different things work and to get to talk to and interact with a bunch of folks that I might not have had the chance to otherwise.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I think what you said is just so on point. I mean, the mindset being so important, the adaptability piece being so important, but also the opportunity to reach organizations and groups that otherwise might not have been open to a Zoom session and because of, whether we like it or not here, we are. And we are all comfortable with it now. And so you’re giving things like this a try and obviously continuing to have the impact that you want to have by reaching more folks through the technology and what you’re able to do. And you mentioned the evidence. You know, my academic perspective is thinking, when it comes to the evidence, Cory, that you reference, I know that there’s likely something there. And you specifically mention some of the pharmacy and medical literature that’s out there. Tell us more about the evidence behind some of the work that you’re doing.

Cory Jenks: Yeah, so I’ve got to give props to the University of Arizona here in Tucson. This precedes me, but there’s an article from I think the late 2000s, the late ots, I guess we call them, where they incorporated — they actually have incorporated improv into their pharmacy school curriculum. So it’s a lot of fun. I’ve been able to help out with those sessions once the world found out that, ‘Oh, you’re a pharmacist that does improv. Well, we do this improv thing for pharmacy students.’ Wow! I have a clinical specialty! Here it is, it’s improv. So I get to go participate in that. But they’ve written up the improvement in patient communication with the pre- before and after doing their improv sessions. So it’s improved subjective communication. In medical school curriculum, it again showed that it improved communication. They felt like there was a quote where I don’t feel like I have to do things off of a checklist, I could just listen to it back in the moment. And most of the medical school students, I think they got 10 hours of improv instruction in the article that I researched and read, is they felt it was worth repeating. And now, put your hand up out there if there’s any classes in pharmacy school or medical school that you wanted to repeat. It was like, I’m done with this one, moving on to the next one. So to me, that — it’s not like where we can objectively measure like, ‘You were a 7 on communication and now you’re a 9 on communication.’ But getting at that human side of healthcare, like if students are saying they’d repeat this, I think they find it valuable. And so trying to promote that evidence more so would be something that I would love to be able to continue to pursue and really with what I’m doing, trying to make that more of a reality in more places for more students to get that training and of course graduates as well.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m going to for a moment, Cory, connect the work that you are doing here in the improv comedy, the impact that you’re obviously having, you know, one of the things that really strikes me is the compound impact this can have. So if you’re training, let’s just say a session where you’re doing a workshop with 75 pharmacy students. Let’s be glass half full and say 40 of them are all engaged and they’re going to take away some things that they can then apply with the patients who they probably also will share with others and their classmates and have an impact on other folks, could be families and friends, and hopefully have an impact on the practice sites and the patients that they serve and the culture within that organization and within those experiences. So the compound effect of the work that you’re doing to me is really interesting. And the influence that you can have on really transforming the healthcare experience through the pharmacists that you’re able to have an impact through obviously your training, your understanding of what pharmacists are doing each and every day. So I want to bring together that work. I know from our personal conversations that your family is incredibly important to you, a big motivation of why for everything that you’re doing, and I also know that your financial journey, as we talked about on Episode 134, is important.

Cory Jenks: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: So fast forward to us five years. What does success look like for you in terms of the work that you’re doing here as it relates to ImprovRx?

Cory Jenks: I think success to me would be that I am at least — I’ve at least gone down to part-time as a practicing pharmacist because I am doing too much speaking and training with improv.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Cory Jenks: I think perfect world in five years, it’s really hard. I’m going to be vulnerable here in front of everybody. Like giving up this identity as a pharmacist would be really hard in this moment to think about not being. However, the energizing thought of being a full-time speaker and trainer, implementing this improv training, whether it be in healthcare associations, other hospital systems, in curriculum, at university level, that’s what I would love to be. Having that compound impact, as you said, is it’s one thing for me to go and teach this to a group of 70 people. But if I can go implement it into multiple curriculums in different healthcare settings, dental schools, pharmacy schools, nursing schools, that compound effect is exponentially more. And it’s just going back to this idea of something that you would not consider traditionally related to healthcare, improv. Like I would love to be known as, “Hey, it’s Cory. He’s the healthcare improv guy. Like he knows how to make that experience great by implementing these really fun, simple rules of improvisation.” And in five years, I would love to see cultures change. Like I talked about this ‘yes, and’ mindset. I think in healthcare, we often are stuck in a world of ‘no.’ Like the paradigm is ‘no.’ So like can I get more time with my patients? No. Is this drug covered by insurance? No. I had this new idea for this new service as a pharmacist. No, we don’t have the time or the budget for that.

Tim Ulbrich: Or did I bill for it?

Cory Jenks: No. There you go, right? See, you said you’re not funny. You just like followed the pattern right there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Cory Jenks: That is textbook comedy. Beautifully done. But I would love to build a culture where of course we can’t literally say yes to every request. Like we can’t say, “I want 1,000 Percocet.” Boom, done. Right? That would be irresponsible. But when we say yes to the idea of some — so here’s this idea for a new billable service, or when a patient’s asking for an obscene amount of controlled substances, we say yes to what they’re telling us. That is they have something deeply going on that we need to investigate and help. So it’s not — ‘yes, and,’ does not literally mean yes all the time, although I have had a improv student come back married after their first week of improv class. It was like, “You said, ‘yes, and,’ and someone asked me to marry him, so I said yes!” I was like, that is ultimate commitment. Beautifully done. But it means at least saying yes and listening. I think that’s a big thing that Cassie hears from her patients, I hear from my patients is they’ll say, “You’re the first person that’s just listened to me.” It doesn’t mean that we fix their problem all the time. It doesn’t mean that we give them exactly what they want. But that ability to listen and empathize with that patient is to learn, why are they saying this? Why are they frustrated with their system? Why are they feeling like they haven’t been heard? And so in five years, if I’m helping create a culture of that for patients and as you said, for providers who are burnt out, I’ll have considered it a wild success.

Tim Ulbrich: One of the things, Cory, that I want to ask you because I think I see folks struggling with this when they’re starting a side hustle or business, whatever you want to call it, is that they’re just crazy passionate about what they are starting. And they see some initial success, and that’s starting to build momentum, hopefully over time, and they’re having an impact. You know, it can be incredibly fulfilling work. So I know, again, as I mentioned, your family is incredibly important to you, the time that you have with your family is important to you. So how do you balance and reconcile the work that you’re doing with ImprovRx, the time that you’re spending preparing for presentations, obviously pre-pandemic traveling? You know, you and I both know that you can sign up for an hour presentation, but it’s much more than that when you think about the before work, the after work, the time that you’re spending thinking about that. So tell me how you handle and reconcile that in terms of scheduling where you’re spending your time and ultimately your decision algorithm for what you decide to say yes to and what you decide to say no to.

Cory Jenks: I think the first step in this is marrying up. So my wife is — my wife Cassie is incredible. We have frequent conversations about what we want our life to look like, what our visions are, what our dreams are, and I know it sounds hokey, but it’s just — the line of communication is open so well. So when it comes to the decision algorithm, a lot of it runs through her because we are on a team together. And every time I’m doing something, she is taking the burden on it. Like right now, she is keeping our kids quiet so we can have this conversation. Mostly quiet, I think. So I think that’s part of it. But I also — we have blocked off time for ourselves. Like these hours during the week in the evening, Cassie is doing her extra little passion project. These hours, Cory’s doing his thing. Oh, Cory wants to do this thing in three months. I check with her, and we look at our schedule, we make sure that there is no other family things, and she’s like, “Go for it.” Like she’s all in too. Like she is in this for making these dreams happen. And I think that relating it back to our episode, being in that Coast FI world of really, I’ve been out of pharmacy school a decade, so a decade of hard work setting ourselves up to take some of these risks to pursue the dream, right, is what has set us up. So the algorithm for what I say yes to at this point in my business is very much saying yes to as much as I can to get that experience, to get those reps, to get that network built. And then the goal is, like my goal that I write down every day, is to have to turn things down at some point.

Tim Ulbrich: That is right.

Cory Jenks: To get to that place where you’re in such demand that I can’t do everything. And so that’s how I see it. But really, it comes down to we have our protected family time, we have our day job time, and then these other hours are for us to work on these things or if I wanted to sit and numb myself with Netflix, which is OK sometimes, you can. But don’t ask me what WandaVision is. Like I have no idea, like no concept of these shows because at night, from once the kids are down, it’s laptop open and if all I have is an hour of energy, I give it an hour, and then it’s get that rest and bedtime. So that’s how I try to balance it. A lot of it is just cutting out the nonsense and unnecessary things that in 10 years, will I be happier that I watched the Cubs spring training games? No, it’s fake baseball for a baseball team. Like, no, I will not. But will I regret not having given this thing that seems to be resonating with the people I work with, if I don’t give it my all, that’s going to be the regret. That’s the broad strokes, I guess.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think some of the best businesses, you know, from a fulfillment/impact standpoint, are those that you can turn into a business, side hustle, again, whatever you want to call it, but that you do have an impact on others and that you feel a sense of contribution towards the work that you’re doing. And if you can build something that is also sustaining but is having an impact, obviously that’s a sweet spot that I think we often strive for when we’re working on things like that. Not just speaking, you also have a blog in the mix, you’ve got a book that you’re working on, so tell us more about those opportunities, in addition to the speaking, the things that you’re working on with the blog and the book, and what you’re hoping to accomplish with those projects.

Cory Jenks: Yeah, so as a fairly new side hustler, I think the struggle is I have this idea, how do I get people to know about it? And so is it a podcast? Is it social media posts? Is it this or that? And so for me, the blog is — I’ve always enjoyed writing. In undergrad, I actually wrote a blog for the University of South Carolina’s Admissions Department describing my day-to-day activities as a pull to get people to come to our college. So I’ve had that practice of writing, so it’s in a world, as you say, we have limited time, how do we say yes to what’s important? Well, writing is a low barrier to entry for me to get these ideas out that I have a chance to go deeper on, to take these seemingly unrelated concepts and put them together into something that’s really usable. So I’ve enjoyed getting the chance to write about that. Part of the gift of COVID — the “gift,” I’ll use my quotation marks here — is that I didn’t have the spring of — March of 2020, like everything shut down. What are we going to do? No one knows what’s going on. So I’ve had all of these ideas formed in my head, so I put them down in a manuscript for a rough draft for a book. So I’m hoping to publish that later this year, to provide that value that I can provide on a face-to-face basis but provide sort of the manual and the stories and the background as to why this is useful, to provide that support and that evidence and try to establish myself more so as an expert in this field. I think writing a book, as you have done, you’re the expert in this. So to the other improv pharmacists out there, let’s collaborate if there are others. This isn’t a — I don’t have to be the expert. Certainly not. Improv is a team sport. But yeah, I’m trying to reach folks with that message of application, really.

Tim Ulbrich: They are going to be coming out of the woodwork, Cory.

Cory Jenks: I know. We have a certain type that’s drawn to pharmacy. I know of all the pharmacist comedians, improvisers, you’ve got me on here. So I appreciate it.

Tim Ulbrich: What is the best way for folks to connect with you? You know, I’m suspecting that some of our listeners might be with academic institutions or state or national organizations, would like to have you do a speaking engagement or a workshop or just in general learn more about the work that you’re doing. How can folks connect with you?

Cory Jenks: Yeah, so I think my website, CoryJenks.com, that’s Cory Jenks — my parents were cheap and did not buy the vowel, no ‘e’ in Corey, so little dad Wheel of Fortune joke there. And if they want to find me on LinkedIn, that’s another great place to connect to. I am on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, but I don’t post much. My whole goal with improv is to have people being in the moment, listening, going deeper with their patients. I’m not going to say social media is not useful. It certainly is very useful. I think the value that I’ll give to people is going to be from my blog, my book and my face-to-face interactions. So you’re welcome to follow me on Instagram. If you like periodic posts of — I don’t even know what I posted last — so you can do that or on Twitter too. Twitter is kind of a — can be hit or miss as far as fun or terrible. But or you can email me, [email protected] email. So the beauty of 2021, there’s a million ways to find me. And I love to talk about this. And I really want to express my gratitude. This is an honor to be a two-timer here on the YFP. I know that you have all helped Cassie and me on our journey so much. And my hope is that I will resonate with somebody and I will help them on their healthcare journey and help them with their patients. So much gratitude to you and the team for having me on.

Tim Ulbrich: I appreciate that, Cory. And we will link to the blog, we’ll link to some of the social profiles, specifically LinkedIn, your email address, in the show notes so folks can find that information. Go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/podcast, you can find this episode and the corresponding notes. You know, you are contagious. I mean, the whole heart of —

Cory Jenks: I don’t know, you might choose your words better in a pandemic, here.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that is true. Not a good choice of words necessarily. But you know, the energy that you have, the interactions you have with folks that you remember is something that I often think about. And I always describe these as bucket-filling interactions. So you know, sometimes we have interactions with other folks that can feel exhausting or feel draining. And then we have those interactions with folks that they really exude energy and they’re contagious to be around, and it obviously hopefully makes those folks better in the individual work that they’re doing and the desired outcome that they have through that work. And I can honestly say, Cory, my conversations with you, you are really that individual that is bucket-filling. I love the passion for what you’re doing. I love the purpose and the intent behind what you’re doing. And I think there are really exciting times ahead for you professionally and for you personally and the folks that you’re going to impact through your work. So congratulations on the success that you’ve had thus far. I look forward to following your journey. And please also send Cassie my regards.

Cory Jenks: Will do. Thank you so much.

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YFP 195: How to Save for Your Child’s Education

Posted on March 18, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How to Save for Your Child’s Education

On this episode sponsored by IBERIABANK/First Horizon, Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich talk through strategies for saving money for your children’s college education. They discuss phases of planning for educational expenses, how to project how much to save, and various options for saving for kids’ college including 529s, Coverdell Education Savings Accounts, UGMA and UTMA Accounts, and Roth IRAs.

Summary

On this episode, Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich talk through strategies for saving money for your children’s college education.

They discuss phases of planning for educational expenses including how to project how much to save. The two main phases of planning for educational expenses, the accumulation phase and the decumulation phase, are explained. In the accumulation phase, even before your children are born but before they begin attending college, parents will need to first assess their overall financial picture and situation, select the savings vehicle that fits the needs of the financial plan, actually fund the account, and check in regularly to make sure that the plan is on track to meet the educational financial goals. In the decumulation phase, parents are actively making financial decisions that directly impact the cost of the child’s education. The decumulation phase also includes actually paying for college. In both phases there are numerous ways to plan and save, each of which should take into consideration the retirement of the parent as well as their wishes for funding for the child(ren)’s education.

Tim and Tim also break down various options for saving for kids’ college including 529s, Coverdell Education Savings Accounts, UGMA and UTMA Accounts, and Roth IRAs, how they work, as well as the pros and cons for each when predicting the future expenses for your child’s education.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, glad to have you back on the show.

Tim Baker: Good to be back. How’s it going, Tim?

Tim Ulbrich: Good. I’m excited about this episode, one that we I know get lots of questions about from the community, from clients. I think it’s an anticipated episode. As I mentioned, a topic around college savings for kids that I believe is top-of-mind for many folks, of those that either have children or those that are thinking about having children down the road and the question is how do you best save for your child’s education? And as pharmacists, we’re all aware — acutely aware — how expensive school can be. 2020 graduate, $175,000 is the median debt load. We all know what that means in terms of our own education and therefore I think it’s probably front of mind as we think about our children’s education as well. Tim Baker, I suspect this is a topic our planning team gets lots of questions about from our clients. Is that accurate?

Tim Baker: Yeah. And it really comes from a place of like, I don’t really know how to approach this. So it’s more of a — I think more so than other things, it’s more of a blank canvas. Some people we kind of direct them if like, hey, if you don’t have a strategy here, we can talk through it. Some people are like, I don’t want my kid to go through what I experienced. I’m going to do whatever I can. And there’s every shade of gray here. So it is definitely something that we talk through with clients who are kind of in the phase of life where they’re just having kids all the way up into where they’re starting to go to college and trying to crack that nut. So it’s definitely something that is top-of-mind for a lot of the families that we work with.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think it’s important before we get into account options and strategies — and we’re going to talk about 529s, probably the most well known option in the group, we’ll talk about coverdell account. We’ll talk about some taxable options, Roth IRAs and so forth. But i think before we get there, it’s important we zoom out for a moment, talk about really two phases of planning for educational expenses, the accumulation and decumulation phase. So Tim, talk us through these two phases, what they are, and thoughts that folks may have as they’re planning for kids’ college in these two phases.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so planning for education is very similar to planning for retirement. You know, we as employees will have a 30-, 40-, 50-year career, whatever that might look like. And typically, the overwhelming majority of that is in the accumulation phase where you are gathering assets and then you go through a decumulation or a withdrawal phase as you go into retirement. The same is true, to a lesser degree in terms of timeline, from an education perspective. So you have an accumulation phase, which is — could be before your kiddo is born all the way up until they’re 18 where they go to college and then you transition to a decumulation phase or a withdrawal phase where you’re actually paying for college. So a lot of families, especially with multiple kids, Tim, you’ll experience this with your boys potentially where you have four different one of these kind of rolling at the same time. So the accumulation phase is when you’re kind of just trying to assess what are your goals with respect to the education planning. So for a lot of people, it’s like, I don’t want my child to experience what I’m experiencing right now. For some people, it’s like, I think they need to have a little bit of it but to a lesser extent. And for some people, it’s like, that’s not part of my AO at all, like I’m not necessarily concerned about that. It’s kind of going through the process of organizing and selecting the appropriate investment vehicles to basically meet the goals that are in front of us, how do we want to fund it, so what is — how are we going to basically put dollars in those appropriate funds? And then just kind of those check in regularly along with the rest of the financial plan to see if we’re on track or off track, just like we would do for retirement and the like. And then really transition to the decumulation phase where it’s more about — and I kind of think about this in terms of the financial plan where you’re not a reactive spectator as I was when I was kind of going through this. I was kind of just I’m going to try to get into the best school that I can and I’ll figure out the price tag and everything later on but more of you’re making empowered, informed decisions about college. I think that’s needed, especially because of where the price of school has gone. So just being more in the driver seat and really work on saving on the cost for college, not just for the cost of college. So one of the big things that we’ll talk a bit about is just college is so ambiguous in terms of what it costs. There’s no price tag for everyone. And potentially help be that objective third party that’s removing the emotion and making an irrational home buying decision and do all this while you are taking care of No. 1, i.e. you and your retirement. It kind of goes back to that idea of put your mask on first before you can put your child’s mask on. The same thing is for education planning. So we don’t want to rob your own financial plan for your child’s college tuition. So those are really kind of the two broad phases that have different nuances as we’re going through them.

Tim Ulbrich: And one of the things you mentioned, Tim, in the accumulation phase is assessing the goal, starting to identify what the need is. And as a parent of a young child myself, multiple children, I struggle with the concept of projecting into the future to estimate educational expenses 5, 10, 15+ years into the future, although I know it’s important to begin to think about that and put some numbers around that as well. So how do you walk through this with clients when it comes to projecting the need?

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s similar to like retirement. You know? Like we don’t really know what the cost of A, B, or C will be. We know that there’s going to be a factor that’s going to be inflation. We know that over the course of the last few decades that the cost of college education has increased threefold over a 17-year period meaning when your child is born, if it costs $40,000 to go to college today, by the time they’re ready to go, multiply that by 3 and that’s basically what a four-year education will cost. So you know, again, this goes back to the whole idea of like investing and time in the market versus time in the market and the time value of money. And for a lot of us, it’s just — it doesn’t necessarily need to be a completely balanced equation. It’s more about am I on track? And am I funding the education funds that are kind of in line with what my goal is? So there are some individuals — and I’ve actually had conversations with individuals where they’re like, we would love to have more kids, but we’re going to stick with the two that we have because if we add another one, we’re not going to be able to have that 100% solution for education. And those are conversations that I want to really dive into a bit more and really see if there is a potential way around it. So you know, just like retirement, we’re going to be tracking if we’re on track or off track. We do the same with education. The problem is that the cost, again, is ambiguous. There’s lots of components to the cost. There’s not like an itemized list that parents can go and say, “OK, this is exactly what it’s going to be. I’m going to know what that’s going to be in 17 years.” We’re just basically using all the tools, the data, we are making this almost just like we would in retirement. And we’re building the plan around that.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that’s an interesting point, Tim, the ambiguous costs that are involved. There’s the sticker price of an institution, which from my alma mater, they’ve evolved that approach from big sticker price, discounting it with lots of scholarships, so the true cost is not anywhere near the sticker price to others where the sticker price, you’re in in-state tuition without scholarships and other things might exactly be that amount. And you’re looking at that times three or four or however long it takes. So talk to us about types of costs, types of expenses. What are things that folks need to be thinking about here in terms of the factors that would inform what that overall need may be? Or at least to project that need.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you know, I think the way that a lot of the tools are built, the financial planning tools that this is kind of what we walk through clients on, you know, you have these different sectors of school. So you have maybe like a private nonprofit four-year on campus experience, which may be the most expensive. So like today’s dollars, it’s like $49,000 is the grand. And then we break those up into the different components: tuition and fees, room and board, books and supplies, transportation expenses, and other. So we have that but then we have all the way down to the public two-year kind of in-state commuter student that it’s a fraction of that, $17,000 all in. So we have the ability to, using the data that we have with some type of inflation number, to say OK, if you want your student to go to Ohio State and you’re in-state, it’s going to cost this much. And then we can build a plan around that. If you want your child to go to just the average four-year out-of-state or in-state, it’s going to cost this much. So you can be very, very granular on this. But really, the things to look at is tuition. So they say a rule of thumb is out-of-state tuition is roughly two times more expensive than in-state. Sometimes it’s a credit per hour, sometimes it’s a flat rate. Room and board, I’m going to do the don’t cut across my lawn, shake my cane at you — but like I remember looking at schools in the early 2000s when I was graduating high school and it being very much a bunk bed cinder block, not necessarily a great cafeteria expenses. And then listening to some of my younger cousins and saying like, “They do what?” And it’s kind of like an arms race, so to speak. And I think that’s one of the reasons that — you’re competing for students — but that’s one of the reasons why some of these have gone up. So room and board, does the school require on-campus housing for freshmen, even sophomores? That’s becoming more and more of a thing. A lot of schools have talked about freezing tuition, but room charges kind of remain unchecked. And a lot of these amenities kind of inflate the cost. It could be food where there’s meal plans. Typical meal plans could be $1,000-2,000 per semester. It could also be things like different fees that are for courses or parking or student ID and orientation, library, legal services, student government. It goes on and on. And these are things that can kind of just start really increasing — it could be textbooks. I know there’s a lot of things that are trying to disrupt that in terms of rentals and things like that. And then just transportation or personal expenses. I know you’ve seen back in the day like oh, like do you use student loans to go and travel and do that? And a lot of people are like, you know, let me live. A lot of people are like, I don’t want to do that because I don’t want to have that inflated student loan number at the end. So it’s very much a layered process in terms of what you’re paying. I think to be able to have some guidance and some counsel on this — and there are financial planning practices that specialize in this alone, especially for a lot of people that are working with Gen X individuals. So I think to have a person to help coach you and your teenager, which can be a little bit different. I know if I transport myself back to that, I’m like, I’m doing what I want.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: But I think if we reframe some of the conversations — and we see it when we talk to schools of pharmacy. If we’ll say, “Hey, the average debt load is $175,000,” that’s like funny money, right? But then if you actually equate it to like what does that cost per month in student loans and then you maybe multiply that by 12, which is close to $2,000, a year $24,000 if we go to the standard plan, that’s where you’re like OK, like maybe we need to have a more rational, less emotion, and make sure that, again, if you’re in pharmacy, all of that education equates to a higher income. But that’s not the case for everybody. If you go study something different that you’re not necessarily aligning what you’re paying in tuition with the expected salary.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, one of the things you said, which is something that I’m struggling to think through — Jess and I — with our boys is I’ve heard you talk about taking current costs and projecting out for some factor of growth that we may expect and certainly we’ve all seen the numbers of tuition and fees, important point you made up — fees that are going up that far surpass inflation and historically have gone up at really incredible rates. But it’s important to note there is somewhat of a national conversation going on about the need for more affordable higher education or even perhaps in some cases free education. So this is something that I feel like I’m struggling reconciling is might I be overprojecting the need? And what’s the opportunity cost of that in terms of where else that money could be used and if it’s tied up in this account or that account? We’ll get into that a little bit with individual accounts, but what are your thoughts on that? Not asking you to crystal ball higher education over the next 20 years, but in projecting the need based on going forward and what we’ve seen historically with growth but also some discussions around perhaps this might be more affordable or in some cases free.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s a great question. And you see a lot of the political discourse around this in terms of like a more progressive political movement to forgive student debt and then offer free options. I’m going to talk out of both sides of my mouth in some degree. So like I think from a planning perspective, it’s tough to — you know, I kind of always default to the status quo. So just assume things are not going to change. But then when I talk about the 529, I’m kind of talking out of the other side of my mouth in that I think that over the last couple years and I think projecting the future, the dollars in those accounts are going to be able to be used for more liberal purposes even than what they’re used for today. So the free college discussion, I do think that there is a very real possibility that by the time, Tim, our kids go to school, that’s going to be an option on the table, an option that I think that a lot of people should seriously consider. I’m kind of putting myself back in that, like would I want to do that myself? And the answer is probably no, I wouldn’t have. But it might make more rational sense to do that, especially if you don’t know what you want to do, which again, most 17- or 18-year-olds don’t really know that. I think that’s going to be the real — the first big domino to fall is going to be kind of that free two-year community college. And I don’t know what stipulations are going to be on that, but I typically from a planning perspective, I plan as if it’s the status quo and hope that potentially there is an improved reality. So like one of the things they just announced with the latest bailout package was that they’re changing some of the rules to the income-driven plans that if you get forgiveness for a non-PSLF strategy between now and 2026, that that’s tax-free. Like you don’t have to pay the tax bomb.

Tim Ulbrich: No tax bomb, yeah.

Tim Baker: But the caveat to that — there’s not very many people because those are 20- to 25-year plans. There’s not many people that are in that boat. So it’s nice, but is that something that they’re going to extend permanently?

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Tim Baker: Maybe, but do you say — you look at that, and you’re like, do you stop saving for the tax bomb? I don’t know if I would feel comfortable telling the client to do that. Now, the nice thing about the tax bomb was typically in a taxable account that you can use that and say OK, no more tax bomb, let me go buy a vacation home. That’s great. If it’s in a 529 account, maybe not so much. So yeah, I think it’s a great question. I think one of the things that a lot of people — and I had these conversations with prospective clients that were like, ‘Yeah, I’m kind of just waiting for this election to see if Biden gets elected what he’s going to do on the student loans to kind of push forward on my strategy.’ And I’m like, in my inside voice I’m thinking like, I wouldn’t hold your breath. And again, like could he forgive student loans? Maybe. But it doesn’t sound like he has an appetite to do it from an executive action. And if it’s — it’s going to be I think for most pharmacists very inconsequential. And again, I don’t know if I would hold up my life, my strategy, to wait for the politicians to come in and save it. So you know, whether that’s $10,000 or $30,000, it’s tough. So I think the big thing to kind of follow, which I think will be — is like that two-year. But then what are the stipulations for that? And then does your student, does your kiddo fit into that? I don’t know if that’s a — if it really, really affects my plan from an education standpoint. So that’s kind of what my take is on that.

Tim Ulbrich: Great discussion. And I think it’s important for folks to consider that on their own as well. And let’s shift now into talking about some of the accounts that are available for kids’ college. We’ll spend a decent amount of time on the 529. We’ll also talk about the Coverdell accounts, the UTMA accounts, taxable accounts, Roth IRAs, so different options here that we might consider. Tim, let’s start with the 529s. Obviously they come up in conversation probably the most often from my experience. What is a 529? What type of contribution limits are out there? How can it be used? And talk to us about these accounts at a high level.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so the way that I think about these are these are essentially like retirement accounts for education. But it’s really going to be dependent in terms of — so why do I say retirement accounts? Because most retirement accounts have tax-preferred status. Like if you put dollars in here, you can save taxes. But every state’s going to be different, right? So one of the big things that makes this attractive for a lot of parents is that the parent essentially owns the account. So a lot of these other ones that you mentioned, it’s like, these are Coverdells, UTMAs, UGMAs, these are custodial accounts that really belong to the student. So these are like retirement accounts, but for education that the parent owns. And one of the big things that I think is exciting that really happened over the Trump administration is that they’ve loosened up what these 529s could be used for. So back in the day, you would use these for a long accumulation period. So you would say, “Hey, little Johnny was born in 2000. He’s going to go to school in 2018.” And for those 18 years, you would basically put money in there and then whatever is left over, that’s what he would use for qualified education expenses. Now with some of the changes to the Tax Cut and Jobs Act under the Trump administration, you can now use it both as an accumulation account, so in future like when Johnny goes off to college, but then also today when Johnny starts kindergarten and he’s going to a private school or all the way up through 12th grade. So under the federal law, savers can now throw up to $10,000 to pay for students K-12 tuition. Now every state is going to be different in terms of what they allow. So that’s important to know what your state does allow. The other big thing that the 529 account — so this was under the SECURE Act, basically that it now allows, which is crazy that this is even a thing, but it now allows qualified student loan repayments up to $10,000 per beneficiary from the 529. So before this, if you had $10,000 in a 529 and you had $10,000 in loans, you couldn’t use that money without a penalty, without a 10% penalty to pay that off, which is crazy talk. Like there shouldn’t even be a $10,000 contingent on that. It should be if you have money in there and you have loans, you should be able to pay it off. And then the last thing that the SECURE Act does is it allows you to use the money for like apprenticeship programs. So like we talk about education — I know Tim and I, we talk about this kind of behind closed doors about like what does higher education look like in the future, what’s this going to look like for us versus our kids, and is there going to be a swing back to more of the apprenticeship type programs and that type of thing. And the 529 is opening up that. And you might be surprised by this, but even — like even when I started learning about the 529s, they didn’t allow you to use it for like a laptop or things like software, so it’s been a gradual thing. So I think that the restrictions are going to continue to kind of be loosened up, just because of the need to kind of solve this problem. So the 529, think of it as a retirement-like account that you can put in money and get a deduction on the state level, depending on the state, and basically grow that money tax-free. So if I put in $10,000 over five years and it grows to $20,000, I don’t pay capital gains tax on that as long as it’s used for qualifying education expenses. And I don’t pay any tax on the back end. I do pay a penalty if I use it to buy a car for my kid or something like that. The other big things in terms of flexibility is that let’s say Johnny doesn’t want to go to college. Let’s say he wants to start his own business, which I might be a big proponent of, maybe buy a franchise and learn that. So he can’t use the 529 for that. But maybe Jane, our second child, can. So you can basically use those — and let’s pretend Jane doesn’t want to go. Then maybe their grandkids do. You use it for that. So the money can sit there and grow. A lot of people think like, oh, I’ll never be able to use it. Like you can just keep changing beneficiaries, essentially, and use it for the children or the grandchildren that do need it. So I am a big proponent of it. I know some people, they kind of feel bound by some of the rules because it’s like, what if you don’t use them for qualified education expenses? But I think it’s a viable way to not only get a state tax deduction based on the state that you live in but also to allow those moneys to grow tax-free without paying capital gains that you would see on like a brokerage account or something like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and the way I think about these, Tim, just to draw another example to how you explained the tax considerations, I think about these as like a Roth IRA for educational savings. So money going in has already been taxed dollars, it’s going to grow tax-free, you can pull it out tax-free for qualified expenses, which you outlined. I do want to just mention because I think it’s worth further explanation, you gave the example that these can now be used for not just higher education but let’s say I have a child who’s in a private education K-12. And some folks might be hearing that saying, “Well, what’s the purpose if I don’t have the long-term investment or gains?” If I have a 5-year-old or a 6-year-old, 7-year-old, they’re in private school and I put money in and then I turn around and take that money and spend it for that education, what’s the point without the gains? And really, the value, Tim — correct me if I’m wrong — would be on the state income tax deduction, right? You’re essentially passing it through, taking advantage of that state income tax deduction. And then of course if there is any time period of growth, you’re going to get some of that growth as well. But is that the main benefit of that type of approach?

Tim Baker: So if you live in the state of Ohio and you know that you’re going to have $10,000 in private school costs, you could put that money in, that $10,000 in, and then at least in the state of Ohio, I think it’s — what is it? $4,200 per kid. So you could at least take that off. So if you make $100,000 that Ohio recognizes income and you basically use it as a pass-through, so it goes right into that account and then you take it out and now the state of Ohio sees that you made $97,400 if I did my math right. Yeah. So $95,400. So the idea is that you use that as a gateway to lower your state income tax. So you’re not really getting any growth at all. It’s just a way to basically contribute, get the deduction, and then use those in more of the near term. It’s the same thing like you could argue with an HSA.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: So the beauty of the HSA is that you can put those dollars in there. So if you put $2,000 into an HSA and then you use it right away, you’re not really getting any growth or tax-free growth on the accumulation of the asset, but you are getting the reduction on your federal and state income in that regard, which can be very beneficial. So and that’s the dynamic that has changed recently under the Trump administration where it wasn’t there before. It’s a great benefit, especially for those individuals that are sending their kids to private school K-12.

Tim Ulbrich: I’m still waiting for them to add the homeschool provisions, by the way.

Tim Baker: Yeah, that keeps getting cut out. And typically at the last minute too.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I’ve got to dust off my lobbying skills. So get down at the statehouse. So some of the disadvantages I think about, you mentioned one of these with the 529. If it’s not used for educational expenses, which it has been broadened out as you alluded to, 10% penalty and tax on the earnings portion of that investment. Other things that come to mind here, Tim, would be as you’ve alluded to, not all 529s are created equal. So they’re based in different states. And this is where you hear folks say, x state’s 529 is the best one. So is it fees? Is it investment choices? Is it flexibility? Like what are the differences that we see in terms of state 529 offerings?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so like unlike some of these other accounts like the Coverdell and the UGMA/UTMA, the 529s are typically administered by the state. So the 529 will say, “Hey, Fidelity or Vanguard or American Funds, we’re hiring you to take care of our state’s 529.” So just like different custodians and institutions, they’re going to charge different fees and have different investments, the same kind of flows through to the 529. And it’s the same with the 401k and the 403b. So some companies will hire companies that are really efficient. So they’ll have good investment selection and cheaper fees. And some where that is not the case at all. Now, sometimes it’s inconsequential because even if the 529 is not great, the state tax deduction is such that it does make sense to pay the lesser fees to get the tax break. But that’s not always the case. And then there’s some states like North Carolina, they don’t care. Like they don’t have any benefit at all. What you essentially want to do is go out and find the state with the best 529 plan, which is often like Nevada’s typically at the top of the list of — the Nevada 529 because theirs is run by Vanguard. It’s typically lower fees and things like that. So a lot of it goes to fees, a lot of it goes to kind of investment selection that is really the driver of like, what constitutes a good 529 plan and what constitutes a not-so-good 529?

Tim Ulbrich: So I don’t want to spend as much time here, but just high level overview of the Coverdell education saving account, the UGMA, UTMA accounts, what are the main differences of those accounts from the 529s?
Tim Baker: Yeah, and to be honest, Tim, like I’ve seen this with clients. I can probably count on my hands how many times I’ve seen these accounts. So these are both custodial accounts, basically like self-directed. So where I was describing with the 529s are kind of administered by the states, you would just go to a financial advisor or even yourself, work with a banker or custodian, and you would say, “Hey, I want to open these up for the benefit of my kiddo.” So if we start with the UGMA/UTMA, these are just really trust accounts that you invest — basically you help invest a child’s money until they can take over it. So it’s owned by the child, but they don’t necessarily have control of it until they’ve reached the age of majority, which for every state it’s going to be different. So that can range anywhere from 18 years old to 25, depending on the state. So these accounts, what you contribute as the parent or the grandparent or whatever, it’s an irrevocable gift that basically means you can’t — there’s no takebacksies. So you give it and then you have no more control of that asset. So in a lot of ways, you’re kind of bound by the gift taxing limits. So these, you typically see these with very wealthy people that are trying to like spend down their estate so they’re not hit with a crazy estate tax. There’s not a whole lot of like tax benefit. So like if you put $10,000 and it grows to $20,000 for that child, they’re paying $10,000 in capital gains. And this could negatively affect the financial aid of the child because the asset is owned by the child. So I don’t really see these much because of the advent of like things like the 529. The other big thing is that I don’t think — then you can use it anything. So if Johnny reaches 18 and he’s like, I don’t want to go off to college and that’s what this money’s for, but I think he can spend it on whatever he wants. So he’s not bound by the education. The Coverdell, these used to be called Education IRAs. The name was changed. These contributions are not tax-deductible, but it does grow tax-free. So they’re very much like Roth IRAs in that the gains are tax-free and they’re self-directed versus state-directed. So you know, they’re — and the withdrawals are tax-free if used for those qualified education expenses, which are also K-12. So this was even before the 529, that was a thing, the Coverdell did have that. But the big downsides for these is that you can really only put $2,000 a year per student. So it’s very low contribution limits. And then you typically phase out like once you reach $220,000 as a married filing jointly or $110,000 as a single taxpayer, you can’t contribute to the Coverdell at all. So for many pharmacists, you know, you’re very quickly kind of out of that, especially if you have dual income. So I don’t really see these anywhere. I mean, I think primarily I see people save for their kids’ education either in a 529, a Roth IRA, a brokerage account, or I’ve even seen some people do it with real estate, which is an interesting concept as well.

Tim Ulbrich: What would be the advantage of a brokerage account? I want to get to the Roth here in a moment, but these ones, we’re obviously talking about some tax advantages that can be associated with them. So what would be the thinking of a brokerage account as a primary vehicle?

Tim Baker: I think for a lot of people, it’s just — it’s that perceived flexibility, which is there. But I think from a Roth, like you can take whatever you contribute to a Roth out any time penalty-free. Tax- and penalty-free. So that’s one thing that a lot of people don’t understand is that if you contribute, you can take that basis out of the Roth IRA. It’s when you start getting into the earnings, that’s when you get into the penalties. So I think for a lot of people, it’s kind of that idea of just flexibility. The problem is that once you start adding up — like if you’re saving for Jane and Johnny’s college over the course of 20 years or so, you could see real capital gains tax there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: Hopefully they’re long term capital gains so they’re taxed at a preferred maybe 15% versus a 22%, 25%, 30%. But that’s still money that you have to account for when you’re going to use that for education. So again, I like the 529. It’s not investment advice. I think for a lot of people it makes sense because of the flexibility that you can — you know, if one kid doesn’t use it, you can give it to the next one. It’s just my kind of go-to.

Tim Ulbrich: Speaking of flexibility, one of the things that I’ve thought of that I want to get your input on — I suspect our listeners may have as well — is the Roth IRA as an option for thinking of saving for educational expenses with the understanding that qualified educational expenses are an exception to the early withdrawal penalty and as you mentioned, the basis or the amount that you put in a Roth can be pulled tax-free without penalty at any point. So talk us through that strategy. I think of something like a Roth versus a 529, perhaps more investment options, perhaps an option to keep fees down depending on what you have in the 529, the idea that if Johnny and Suzy decide not to go to college and I don’t have anyone else to transfer it, I can continue those savings on for retirement. Downsides of course would be of maybe we’re not using that as the primary or one of the primary vehicles for retirement and savings. So where does that fit in in terms of strategy of folks when you’re thinking about where a Roth may or may not fit relative to the 529 specifically?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I mean, I’d probably default more so to the 529 first, at least get the state tax deduction. But there’s some people that are just like, I want to really use — because that is one of the exceptions in the IRAs that you can for higher education expenses and I think it’s cap, I don’t know if it’s the same for first-time home buyers, if it’s $10,000. I’d have to look that up. But I think it is. I don’t know, I think we talk about accounts like the HSA that has this dual purpose. But sometimes when you have a dual purpose, you have no purpose. It’s almost like when you have two quarterbacks, right? So for like the Roth IRA, like I look at that as a retirement account, not an education account. But it could very much be used as such. I think that yeah, to your point, is there more flexibility in an IRA versus like a 529? Absolutely. Is it even cheaper? Yeah, potentially. But I think that where the 529 is going — and I think you can have both, really. Some people will never reach their state’s benefit in terms of what the state tax deduction would be. But yeah, I think this is more of a conversation for clients that don’t have that benefit, like I said, North Carolina where the Roth is — or even the brokerage account, but I would probably say the Roth first would be the first avenue. So you know, I kind of, again, default rightly or wrongly to the 529. But I think the Roth can be a viable way to at least put some dollars aside for that purpose.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I like the thought on the 529 for the state income tax deduction. Maybe you build it from there, maybe you look at a Roth. The other thing, which I think goes without saying, is that if there is a way to earmark your Roth specifically for long-term retirement savings and still contribute to a 529, we can let that money continue to grow as you say on repeat on this show, it’s time in the market that matters, right? So if we can not have to pull that out for college expenses and let it continue to grow, obviously we’re going to reap the benefits of that compound interest. Last question I have for you, Tim, as we wrap up this discussion on kids’ college and savings: One of the thoughts that I have is coming out, I’ve talked about my story and journey on this show many times before, but I suspect for many other pharmacists that have six figures or more of debt, is there a tendency for folks to overcompensate for kids’ college savings at the expense of other areas of their financial plan, specifically for those that have come out with very high debt loads and because of that experience, might lean in that direction of hey, I don’t want my child to have to go through it, at the expense of their own retirement, at the expense of other financial goals that we might traditionally think come before kids’ college? Is that something you see among clients?

Tim Baker: I think that yes, I do. But I also see like a bit of every kind of approach on the spectrum where it’s like, I don’t ever want my child to ever have to go through this again or go through what I went through. But there’s also like some of it like I went through it, so they have to go through it. And then there’s some reservation of like, just because my loans are so bad, I don’t think I’m going to be in a position to help them.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: Sometimes there is kind of the reaction, you know, equal and opposite reaction type of approach. But it’s all over the place. And I think for the most part, the default has often been I want to help my kids as much as I can, but I also need to make sure that I’m taking care of myself. And I wouldn’t say it’s uncommon, but you know, there have been not as many conversations as you would think where I’m saying like, we have to pull that back. So you know, one of the things that we do as part of the goal setting here is how do we want to go about funding this? And there’s a lot of different approaches where you can plan for 100% or you can plan for something that’s a lot less than that and feel good about that as part of your financial plan. So yeah, it is all over the board. But I think there are sometimes is a push to kind of overcompensate for that or some just like, hey, I had to deal with having to find my way.

Tim Ulbrich: Good luck.

Tim Baker: They do too. Yep. Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, as always, Tim. And to those listening and college savings may be on your mind of one of many financial goals that you’re trying to work through, we’d love to have a conversation with you about the comprehensive planning services that we offer at YFP Planning. Now serving more than 200 households across 40+ states of the country. Our team is well versed in this topic among other parts of the financial plan. And you can go to YFPPlanning.com, book a free discovery call to see if our services are a good fit for you. And as always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please do us a favor and leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show, which helps other folks find out about the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.

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YFP 194: How Karine Used Her Pharmacy Skills to Create a Successful Healthy Dessert Business

Posted on March 11, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How Karine Used Her Pharmacy Skills to Create a Successful Healthy Dessert Business

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Karine Wong, pharmacist, educator, and entrepreneur, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about her journey starting My Guiltless Treats. Karine discusses how she uses her pharmacy skills in her entrepreneurial journey, how to determine whether or not a business idea is worth pursuing, why it is so important to have a clear purpose and vision, and why saying ‘yes’ is so crucial when starting and running your own business.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Karine Wong spent her entire pharmacy career in the hospital pharmacy. She worked as a staff pharmacist, director, and clinical coordinator. Over time, she became frustrated about the lack of compliance with her diabetic patients. After countless hours of counseling at the bedside, the patients would return in a few short months with the same problem; uncontrolled diabetes. In 2013, Karine and a colleague had an idea to make protein candies. The idea seemed intriguing; simple and yet revolutionary. The company could provide a viable, sustainable solution to the non-compliant diabetic patient. By 2018, Karine has led My Guiltless Treats on a successful journey to popularity, sustainability, and profitability. To date, My Guiltless Treats is the only company that specializes in healthy desserts.

Summary

Karine Wong, pharmacist, educator, and pharmacy entrepreneur, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss her pharmacy career, how she’s used her pharmacy skills on her entrepreneurial journey, and how she’s built a successful business, My Guiltless Treats, by going above and beyond the usual standards.

Karine has also learned how to determine if a business idea is worth pursuing and outlines practical benchmarks to evaluate when starting a new venture. She explains that great ideas can turn into great businesses if they can solve a problem that you care about and are passionate about, solve a pain point, have a market (with or without competition), and help people on a large scale.

Additionally, Karine shares her personal experience with the power of being positive, how the act of saying ‘yes’ can have a huge impact on your business, and practical ways to say ‘yes’ in your own business practices. Business owners, aside from providing free product (if the business can afford it), can also provide knowledge and time in various forms to their customers, building relationships that may potentially turn into lifelong sales.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Karine, thank you so much for taking time to be on the show.

Karine Wong: Hi, Tim. How are you?

Tim Ulbrich: I am doing well, excited to have you on. We had a chance to meet virtually a few weeks ago and had an opportunity to learn a little bit about your pharmacy career as well as the work that you’re doing with My Guiltless Treats and said, “Hey, we need to get this in front of the YFP community,” as I know many folks may have an idea that they’re wondering about, whether it’s a business idea, a side hustle idea, and I think featuring other pharmacy entrepreneurs is really an opportunity for them to see examples of what others are doing out there. So let’s first start with your pharmacy education and career. Why did you go into pharmacy? Where did you go to pharmacy school? And what type of work have you done in pharmacy throughout your career?

Karine Wong: I went to pharmacy school right out of high school, straight into University of the Pacific in southern California and endured a 5-year program, the accelerated program to be a PharmD at the end of 5 years. By the end of the 5 years, I really loved the clinical field. I actually wanted to be a doctor at that point, but at that point my parents decided not to support me anymore. So I was stuck being a PharmD. That’s OK. At the time, pharmacy was — it’s a world that can be anything you want it to be. You can be a CVS pharmacist, a Kaiser, nuc pharmacy, ambulatory care. It was — the world’s your oyster. I chose to stay in the hospital field. I felt that was the best place for me to be surrounded by the greatest minds of Edison. And so I stayed in hospital pharmacy when I graduated in 1999. And I have worked up the totem pole. So I was a (inaudible) pharmacist, worked up to outpatient pharmacist, did some floating here and there, became a director of pharmacy at one point but stayed put as a coordinator, which is a fancy word for clinical manager. So I was in charge of all the PMT minutes, agenda items, formulary additions, deletions, and in these settings. I also got the precep student from West University for 8 years and I’ve also participated in rounds with the teaching staff of the hospital. So I’ve always been in academic settings in terms of the hospitals. I was always teaching nurses or students, interns or residents and pharmacy students. So that’s pretty much my journey. Always learning.

Tim Ulbrich: Always learning, which is a good connection to business. And we’re going to talk a little bit about how your pharmacy career has played a role in the work that you’re doing in running your own business. So My Guiltless Treats — and we’ll link to that in the show notes for folks so they can learn more, check out the website, learn about the products that you offer — give us the 20,000-foot view. What is My Guiltless Treats all about?

Karine Wong: My Guiltless Treats is not something I intended to start at all. If you had told me 20 years ago I would start a business, I’d laugh in your face. I’d be like, no, no, no, I’m going to live and die in my pharmacy office. That’s what I thought I would do. Kind of changed now, I think I got burn out in pharmacy. I was really good at what I was doing, and I was writing codes, I was helping the pharmacy staff with all the difficult cases we had at our hospital. When 2008 rolled around, I took some time off to give birth to my child and I came across this fitness director who wanted to increase my protein intake. But it did not taste good. And she complained about why does it taste awful? Now, as a pharmacist, I thought, that’s kind of funny. I don’t take protein myself, but don’t you think it’s odd that we can make steroid solution taste really great but we can’t make something as simple as protein taste better?

Tim Ulbrich: Right? Yeah.

Karine Wong: So I told her, I can make it for you. I’ll make you a protein candy. And that’s how My Guiltless Treats came to fruition. I did create a product that was a delicious treat. At the end of the 5 years of working with her with RMD and sales, we decided to split up. She went to pursue a different career path, but I stayed on board. The original treat that we had, they’re actually protein gummies, was not scalable. It wasn’t something that people wanted to buy. We had no sales to warrant the continuation. We had people who loved it, but it wasn’t like a lot to justify a $50,000 investment into buying a million gummies, OK? That’s a lot of gummies to sell. It’s almost like two pallets. And it wasn’t scalable, it wasn’t something that we could sell. So she took off, which is fine, but I stayed on with the company because I still believed it had so much potential for it. So I looked at Guiltless Treats as a vehicle to deliver treats or desserts to diabetics, to those who really need it. And this Aha! Moment came back to me when I was working at the hospital. I remember counseling at the bedside and doing diabetic teaching to our patients diagnosed with diabetes, and I would teach them how to use insulin and the syringes. One gentleman stuck in my mind because he was very noncompliant, his A1C was double digits. I had to tell him, “OK, senor, no more bread, no more rice,” and he said, “OK, I would love to do it. But senorita, I want my bread. I want my (inaudible) bread. I want that.” And I looked at him and go, “OK, I guess I’ll see you in 3-6 months,” you know? Right? What can I do? He told me he’s noncompliant. He’s not going to change. He gave me a dare. He said, “Unless you can tell me something that is good for me and delicious, I’ll eat that.” And I had no answer for him. That was the Aha! moment. That was the moment I realized, oh my gosh, he’s right. So I go downstairs, and I ask my dietician friends, my physician friends, “What do you tell patients what can they eat that’s good?” And you know what they all told me while they’re eating their Twinkies and their Ho-Hos, “You tell them to eat their kale.”

Tim Ulbrich: Oh gees.

Karine Wong: Quinoa’s good, brown rice is supposed to better. This is what they’re telling me. But they weren’t eating it. And I’m thinking to myself, OK, that’s — I can’t use that, OK? Because they don’t know how to make kale salad or quinoa rice. They don’t know how to do that. It’s not part of their culture. So I was up against the wall. So when my fitness instructor friend mentioned the protein gummies, I thought, that actually sounds interesting because I can take out the sugar and replace it with another macronutrient like protein. So even though the gummies didn’t come to fruition, there was a point to make the treats. There was a reason for it. I needed to make something for that gentleman. I needed to make a dessert, something that he can have that doesn’t taste medicinal, that doesn’t use artificial flavors or sweeteners, something that he can grab at the store, not have to make it, not have to thaw it or bake it but can eat it right out like a protein cup. So aha! Six months later, after intense RMD, I created or actually made a version of my own kind of pork bun, (inaudible) a type of dessert similar to flan or custard. It’s very soft in texture. I don’t use (inaudible) cream or eggs or gluten or milk. I just use coconut cream, which is better for you, doesn’t cause the same problems as animal fat. And I layer over real mango, pineapple, or guava. So it’s a tropical dessert. And then I fortify the dessert with protein from the protein. But it’s also filtrated, so there’s no lactose, there’s nothing that will make you bloated. I deliberately made my products allergen-free. I took the top seven allergens that we see in the States and took them away, so nuts, there’s no seafood, there’s no tree nuts, stuff like that. I avoid that. Coconut is not considered a same nut as a tree nut, so it’s OK to use that. And yeah. I’ve been successful with the panna cotta desserts, people love it, it’s a thing now. People know me as the kind of the panna cotta lady. I’m the only one that makes it. And I make it healthy. So it’s the only dessert that you can find that’s actually good for you. So you can eat it instead of your ice cream at nighttime, you can eat it instead of yogurt at breakfast or like my friends at the hospital, they eat it during their shift. So when they have a long shift, the protein sustains them for the entire 10-hour shift that they have. So it’s a great option for everybody. You don’t have to be diabetic or pre-diabetic to enjoy it. You could be anyone. It’s just a dessert that’s healthier. Other manufacturers can’t do that because they put lots of sugars in their products. They don’t really know what we know as pharmacists. And that’s why being a pharmacist really helps your product if you’re going for the food industry. Because you know so much.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. That makes sense. And one of my favorite stories, Karine, from our conversation several weeks ago was, you know — and get the story right if I have it wrong, but you had mentioned at the gift shop of the hospital, you know, this being distributed and sold and how quickly it would come and go and that you knew you were onto something in terms of folks that obviously appreciated the product, the quality of it, and certainly those that could benefit from it from a health perspective as well. And it has me thinking, you know, we’ll take a little bit of an aside here, but many folks may be listening that have an idea, right? And so you had an idea of something that could be done better. You mentioned the protein gummies, which ultimately didn’t come to its full fruition. So what ultimately does make a good idea? As you’re thinking of this not only with your own business here and other experiences you’ve had but also potentially advising and giving input to other folks that have business ideas, what makes a good idea? What’s the framework in which you think of what is this idea and does it actually have viability going forward?

Karine Wong: That’s a great question. And I’m going to say lots of time and energy because I could break it down for you in this way. I actually have a lot of students or mentees that I work with who have ideas, and ideas come in and out of your mind all day long. Doesn’t mean you act on every single idea. So what makes a good idea, an idea that you probably want to sit on. First, the idea that you have, whether it’s a service or a product, should be there to solve a problem. And the problem could just be just to you, but if you find that this problem bugs you — let’s suppose that it bugs you that every year, your smoke alarm will run out of batteries and always at 2 o’clock in the morning, right? Every night.

Tim Ulbrich: Amen.

Karine Wong: I don’t know how they do it. And that’s the night that you can’t sleep, that’s when you jolt out of bed with almost an MI because it’s like, beep, beep, and it won’t stop, especially if you have like 5 in your house and you don’t know which one it is, right? What if that’s a problem for you? If it’s a problem for you, it’s a problem for someone else and probably many others that have smoke alarms. No. 2, if you could develop a product like a battery or a monitoring system that tells you when your battery is low, like if you can find a way to make an app that bluetooths the battery life to your smoke alarm, that would be superb. And you don’t have to physically make the app, you just have to hire someone that can code it for you. You tell them what you want, and they make it for you. It’s pretty simple. But you have to have the idea, you have to do the research and find out is there a market for it. So if I know every house in the United States has to have smoke alarms, right? That’s a law.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Karine Wong: No. 2, so the market’s very big. No. 3, does anyone make that besides you? Like is there an option out there? Now if there is, it doesn’t mean don’t do it. Just know that if there’s no competition, you have a more difficult road because you have to pave the road for yourself. You have to do all your market research and find out how to get the pricing down, find the right coder, for example, and get the best pricing for that. But if you have competition, follow them and see how are they doing it? OK? I’ll give you an example. Protein gummies was my first skew. We had three competitors. That was back in 2010. Today, they’re all defunct. Why? Because no one wanted protein gummies. Interesting. They all went bankrupt. We didn’t go bankrupt, we just changed our name. Going into No. 3, you have to find out if there’s competition or not. OK? No. 4, if it’s a good idea, it’s an idea that will come back to you the next day.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Karine Wong: So an idea that’s OK goes away the next day. You don’t remember. You just like, eh, whatever. I don’t remember the idea. It just came and go. It didn’t stick around. But if the idea is awesome and you find there’s potential in it because of what you know, whether it’s a pharmacist or a handyman or living your house and hearing that every year, the smoke alarm chirping, then that idea will come back to you. And you’re like, you know what? I won’t let it go. I can’t let it go. Because it’s a really good idea. And that’s how you know. So those are four benchmarks. And just like when you sig a patient, check them off, right? Do you have a problem that you’re solving? Check. Can you make a service or a product that will solve it? Check. Competition, is there any? Check, yes there is. That’s fine. OK? That doesn’t stop you.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Karine Wong: It just means that, hey, there’s a market for it because so many people have tapped into it. Now if there’s too many competitors, you might want to like not do it because it’s too hard. Like I would never go into the beverage market now because it’s so supersaturated. I would not go into the frozen industry because you know the frozen aisle is very coveted shelf space because it’s frozen. So I can’t get in there if I had the best tasting item ever. I could not break into that. And No. 4, like I said, if the idea comes back to you and you won’t let it go, then you have a really good idea.

Tim Ulbrich: I love that, Karine. Very tangible advice. Checklists, we like checklists. We like thinking about things in sequential order. And I think your comment that resonates — several things in there — but you know, multiple ideas that may come to focus doesn’t mean we need to act on every one. What I actually do at home, my wife and I like to brainstorm various business ideas. And we write them down on a legal sheet, you know, 8.5×11 yellow piece of paper. It’s in my office. And then what I find is some of those we keep talking about, right? We come back two days later, four days later, six days later, eight days later, even some of those we may determine for other reasons in your four steps aren’t viable. But those that we find we can’t let them go, like that means you’re at least at the beginnings of something that obviously is important to you. The other thing I think about here, Karine — I’d love your input — is I think folks often struggle with is this an idea that I really care about solving this problem and I have a solution that I’m going to be really passionate about? And is it financially viable? Am I after the money? Am I after the purpose and solving this problem? Or both? And what advice would you have with folks, you know — here as I hear your story, obviously at the end of the day, you’ve got to run a business but also something that you saw could have a tremendous impact on patients. It was a problem that needed to be solved. And so the concern that folks might be chasing becoming rich or having a home run of a product and how important it is to be passionate about the problem that you’re trying to solve.

Karine Wong: The way I look at it is your company is a baby. If you’ve lost interest in your baby, the company, literally dies. So imagine yourself, like you’re in charge and you decide, you know what, I’m going to take a break and do something else. Guess what? The company that you built falls apart. It may take awhile, but it will fall apart because you are the glue that holds it together. So you’re the why. Why are you doing this has to be something that you will use every morning you wake up, every morning you clock in, you turn on your recording or you reach out to people for your interviews, that is your why, why are you doing it. And if you say, “money because I want to be a millionaire,” or “be featured on Ellen, the show,” you’re going to have issues, OK? Because the likelihood of that is almost as high as winning the lottery. It’s very rare. Just like people who want to be on TikTok and they want to make it big. That’s pretty rare. What’s your why? It should be because you’re solving a problem that is important to you, that bugs you. And you want to solve it. We as pharmacists I consider are problem solvers. Right? We fix people’s ailments with drugs and we tailor their regimens. And so the same thing happens with products or services. If I could fix your life to be better, even by a little bit, hey, that’s so neat. That is your why. I love that I know that my products help those that are enduring chemotherapy or those with the canker sores from the chemotherapy or has protein loss because of dialysis or they just can’t eat because they’re kekectic, be able to thrive. Hey, my stuff is better than Ensure+. My stuff is better than most medicinal foods. So that’s my joy. That’s my why. And if I stop my company, those customers are affected. And that’s why I don’t stop. And there’s more than one person. There’s a lot. In fact, in about a month, I’ll be celebrating my milestone — I had to tell you this, Tim — but I’ll officially have sold 25,000 units.

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, congratulations.

Karine Wong: That is not an easy feat. And I did it in about 18 months, so that’s a lot of panna cottas.

Tim Ulbrich: That is awesome.

Karine Wong: Yeah, I mean, I’m sure if I was a big company that packs and manufactures it, I’m sure it makes a lot. But a single person by myself using pharmacist-grade benchmarks, yeah, it’s not easy. It takes awhile to do because I’m very picky. When I make products, I go beyond, beyond the food safety measures. OK? Food safety measures are pretty low, OK? It’s like, don’t put stuff in there like debris. Yeah, I get that. But I don’t put piologens in there. I don’t put bacteria in there. My stuff is vacuum-sealed, sterile, no piologens. It lasts for six weeks without any bacteria count of significance. And I do this with technicians in laboratories, so it’s all certified. OK? So I go beyond the scope of a food manager because I’m a pharmacist. I don’t want to give people stuff that — it’s not a liability, it’s more like what makes you feel good? I don’t want my patients — or not my patients, consumers, to eat something healthy and that’s not dirty or have full of debris or particulates. That’s our nature as pharmacists, right? So going back to your question about your why, yes, your why, my why is because I want to help people be on the medicine. I want to help people at the marketplace, give them teaching, counseling. I do more patient counseling now that’s more viable, that’s more significant to them, than I would have at CVS. Because CVS is very fast-paced and you only have so much time. But at the marketplace, I’ve got time and they’re much more open to me. So when I give them advice or valuable tips, they love it. And they get to go home with that, and that’s going to help them from this point on. So I give them a lot of hope and insight into their management of their disease state, whether it’s diabetes or eczema or Crohn’s Disease. I’ve heard it all, so I am able to talk on that not as their doctor but as a pharmacist. And they trust me in that. And so it’s not about sales, but they end up buying it because they like who I am and what I represent. So the why for everybody should be that you want to help people or you want to solve a problem. Those are the best whys you can have in your life. But if you’re going to say money or stardom or fame, you can still do it. I won’t stop you. But your journey every morning will be so much harder because it’s tough. And so if you’re hoping to be on Ellen’s show and every morning you wake up and you make 1,000 panna cottas, you might go, God, is it really worth it? You’re going to be tired. You’re going to be kind of burnt out real fast. And that’s why those are really not good reasons to start a business. I’ll give you an example, Tim. I actually had an investor that offered me lots of money to make CBD gummies. This is right when the legislature passed the state law that legalizes like CBD and marijuana for recreational use. And he asked me to make it. He said, “You’ll make millions of dollars.” And I believed him. I would make a million dollars. And I said no, not because I couldn’t do it, not because I didn’t want the money, because it’s not my jam. It’s not my why. I could not make CBD gummies because it’s not like I don’t think it works. I think it works great, I don’t think it matters how much money you throw at me, I wouldn’t do it. It just doesn’t make me happy. It doesn’t solve anyone’s problem — at least, it does solve a problem, but it’s not a problem that I want to solve. Does that make sense to you? It is a problem. But it’s not my jam, it’s not my passion to solve that problem or to help those patients. It could be yours, maybe someone else’s, so that’s what I did. I deferred.

Tim Ulbrich: So important. And I can’t echo enough of what you just said there. Even thinking of what we’ve been working on at YFP, hearing your story here, hearing other stories of pharmacist entrepreneurs that I’ve talked with, you know, having that motivation and a why of something that you care about, a problem that you care about, that you want to solve is so critically important to invest in the time and energy that’s going to have an impact. Karine, I want to talk for a moment about the gap between having an idea and from there, getting to a minimum viable product and perhaps from there, being able to actually grow and scale something. Big separation, big gap between having an idea and actually being able to grow that idea perhaps into its full potential. And I think pharmacists may hear your story or hear other entrepreneurial stories and hear from folks that have been successful, however you may define success. And for you, selling 25,000 units in 18 months, that’s overwhelming. You know what, I have this idea and I hear Karine talking about RND, about growing, scaling, manufacturing, hiring a team, wow. Maybe I should just stop pursuing my idea right now because that feels overwhelming. What advice would you have for folks that are listening that say, “You know what, I have this idea, and I just don’t know where to go from here.”

Karine Wong: The fear of pursuing an idea is very common. It’s not unusual to hear an idea or come up with one and go, you know what, it’s a good one, but nah. It’s not going to work. And to have self doubt because you’re afraid. And I think as pharmacists, we’re more risk-averse. So we don’t want to take chances on something that we don’t know much about. That’s understandable. There’s a few things that I do in my career and my company that help minimize that risk. First, when you hear an idea, obviously we don’t put every single penny we have towards every idea. But look at the idea that you’re thinking about. A good idea is the idea that will solve a problem that is going to affect many consumers, not just you, not just your family, but other pharmacists or other people in your industry or your role as a mother or father, some of the frustrations you see as maybe a student. And that is a problem that if you have had it, and other people have had it, then that’s a good market. That’s why. You check that box, that’s a pretty good market, a pretty good idea. Second, you have to create a solution. An idea basically tells you that we need something to help fix that problem. Your job is to find a solution, and whether it’s a product like my product, a dessert, a snack, a service, or even a device that you create, then that is what you need to come up with. And that’s probably what you’re talking about when it comes to the minimum viable product. It is a product or service that will bring in people to buy your product or service in exchange for money to solve that problem. And that is what investors look for is how good or awesome is your end EP. Many pharmacists always tell me, oh, I’m not creative or I don’t know how to make dessert or I’m not a baker, I’m not an engineer. Neither am I. But you are resourceful. You’re a pharmacist. So you can easily hire a coder to perhaps make a software app for an iPhone that would track down smoke alarms in your house and find out when that battery is going to run out. You can hire engineers to create a device for you. My whole point is that designing, creating a product doesn’t have to be a solo mission. In my case, it’s a solo mission because oh heck, we’re always into compounding in laboratories and we’re always making something. And I’m a mom, so I’m always baking new recipes. It’s a small experimentation. So you don’t have to be a chef or a professional engineer or a writer or anything like that to pursue a product or device or something that solves a problem. So that’s No. 2 is find a solution, create it. No. 3, now you’ve got to test it. You’ve got to find out if your market that you’ve identified, like the other moms in your area, the pharmacists in your industry, like what you’re selling. And I don’t mean people like your mom or your dad or your brother or sister or husband. They don’t really count. Not to say their opinions don’t matter, but they’re really nice and they love us. So they’ll say whatever makes us happy. You want to know if your friend of a friend of a friend is going to buy your product or MVP. So this is a person that doesn’t know you, has no connection with you, and is more likely to give you an honest opinion. If they’re willing to give you money in exchange for that service or product you’re providing for a problem that you both share, you have an awesome idea that is worth pursuing. With that being said, if you get like a thousand ideas in a given month, maybe one or two might be feasible or fit all of those check boxes. To me, the ones that really require more attention are the ones that stick around. I have a lot of ideas, and I don’t always move on every single idea. But if an idea comes back to me in two or three consecutive days or weeks, like I just can’t let it go, I dream about it, I obsess about it, I think about it when I’m running, now that’s an idea worth pursuing because your subconscious knows it’s a good idea, Karine, don’t let it go. It’s something worth pursuing. That’s why if you look at my bio, I do more than just My Guiltless Treats. I’ve actually written a book, I have created an app for pharmacy students to help prepare for the board exam and medical students to help with their SEP boards. So I’m not just limited to the role of pharmacy. I’m not limited to the food industry. If I feel there’s a problem, in which I did, I hire coders, I learn how to write, I hire editors, I had a publishing team that all helped me get to my purpose.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And one of the questions, Karine, that I’m thinking of as you’re sharing your story is when I hear 25,000 units in 18 months, obviously you are solving a problem that people are interested in that are raising their hand to purchase, but you haven’t scaled nationally into large retailers, despite the opportunity being there to do so. And that has been an intentional move, as I understand it. So my question here is how and why did you arrive to the decision that you wanted to control your growth?

Karine Wong: There are two reasons why I chose to control my growth. In the food industry world, there’s a saying, you go hard in your backyard. That means that all your marketing, all your efforts to brand, to market, should be in your local region. It doesn’t make sense for me to let’s say get in Costco or Whole Foods nationally when I’m here in California. Nobody in Chicago or East Coast knows who Karine Wong or who the Guiltless Girl is or what panna cotta is that’s made of coconut cream. They don’t know. So it’s going to be a very hard sell. And now with COVID, it’s even harder because I can’t hire marketers to go out there to demonstrate the product. That’s the first reason is to always market your product in your area. If you’re able to do a service remotely, that’s a little different. But the point is that people are more likely to buy your product, buy my product when they know you, heard about you, seen the car, seen your Instagram posts and are more familiar. So in California, in Orange County, I am very popular as the Guiltless Girl. Selling product is very easy, I sell in a few stores, and they sell through it, which means that nothing is left over. They always run out. That’s a positive sign. I’d rather have those benchmarks than to be in let’s say 200 Whole Foods stores and sell 10% of what I stocked. There’s no glory in that. There’s no fame or money to be made when you’re only selling a little bit at those stores. And eventually, those stores will discontinue you because you could not show velocity in their stores. So that’s the first reason why you want to go hard in your backyard. And the second reason is that there has to be a balance. If all I did was My Guiltless Treats and nothing else, then yes, I would go national. I would go and find investors and get seed funding to go national. I would even go on Shark Tank because that’s all I got going on and my role is to go national. And I would actually hire a larger team and brokers to get those milestones. But I am not just the CEO of this company. I’m also a professor. I teach remotely for PharmD students for PGI West University and Yogi (?). So I’m busy with that, and I do love teaching pharmacy students. I’m also a pharmacist. I’m doing remote pharmacy from my home, and I’m a pharmacogenomics counselor. So there’s a lot going on my plate. So I’ve got to be home, and this is a good balance because I can spend maybe three days a week doing Guiltless work, including weekends, and the other days are spent doing teaching, being a parent, working out, kind of having time for myself. And the balance is fantastic because I’m very happy and I feel successful because I do make money. I have enough money to pay for my staff. I have enough money to hire people to design logos for me, I can basically sustain — the company is sustainable on its own. So that’s a sign of success. And I don’t need to make a million dollars from this. I just need to make it run on its own, which it is. And I need to have time for myself, my kids, my family, and teach. If I lost all that, there is no glory. There is no fame. So controlling growth is about finding a balance where you have time for yourself and your family and your other hustles and passions but also time for yourself and the company. It’s a balance, really. And you know, I’m OK making what I’m making right now. I am making profit. But yeah, I’m not a millionaire. And that’s OK. I’m very happy with what I’m doing. You’ve got to be OK with all those things. Other entrepreneurs, for them, it’s all about, I want to get in Costco, I want to get in Whole Foods, I want to be in all these Krogers and Vons. OK? That’s your jam. It’s not my jam. Just because they’re saying it and they want it and their business coach is saying it doesn’t mean it’s for you. So you have to look at yourself and your life and see is that for me?

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great wisdom, Karine. I would encourage folks, you know, to spend some time getting clear on your personal goals and why. In addition to what we’re talking about here today, which is the business goals and why, as Karine shared her personal goals, the balance obviously informed her business goals and the direction that she is taking with the business. And Karine, I’m glad to hear what you said about controlled growth. I think we have glorified the grind and hustle and working hard at all costs. Perhaps it’s the Shark Tank effect, you know, I’m not sure. But I think it’s a good reminder of us each individually thinking about what success may look like. So Karine, tell us about a lesson that you shared with me before we hit record, which was the power of saying yes. Tell us about for you and your journey, saying yes to folks, why this was so important, even recently, in terms of the value and the power of saying yes as a business owner.

Karine Wong: Being positive and affirmative is an attractant to other consumers. Consumers, when they buy a product or service, they’re not just buying a product or service, they’re buying from you. They’re buying you. They love you. They want to be in your life, they want to be engaged with you. If you’re negative or cheap or frugal or penny-pinching, they’re probably not going to come back to you. One of the things I adopt is generosity is key. If I can do it, I will, whether it’s emotional support, physical support, knowledge, expert advice, I’ll do it. I have no problem at all. I consider ourselves a drug expert. So if someone asks me a question randomly in the aisles of Target, I’ll be happy to help them. I have no qualms about holding back information because oh, I don’t work here or I’m on break or whatever. If you need help, let me help you. It’s better that I help you than for you to find the answer yourself on Wikipedia, which is not something I recommend. So when you say yes, the rule is this: Say yes to people if you can do it. For example, when you have a product or service and especially in the initial phases of the company, a lot of the times will be giving away product for free. And that may sound counterintuitive because you’re trying to make money. But the first couple years, you’re not going to make money. And your goal is to let people try your product, even if it means giving it away for free. Most people will not try a product and pay for it just to test the waters. It’s better for you to give it away for free, gift it, donate it, mark it as a tax writeoff on your income tax returns. And that allows people to try your product and go, you know what? She’s quite generous or he’s quite generous. They let me try it for free, there’s no contingency offers, there’s no like alternative motives. They’re going to feel warm and fuzzy with you. And they’re going to love the product because hey, you know, this is a good product. And I like it. And yeah, I would come back and ask for more and I would probably pay for it. So offering the first dose or first service or first product for free actually is a really awesome marketing idea if you could afford it. And usually, you can because you have the capital for that. If you can’t afford it, don’t do it. The other things you can offer for free would be your knowledge. If you know something, if you are very well read up on gluten diet, gluten-free foods or celiac disease or eczema and they’re going to shift to dairy, definitely talk about it. A lot of consumers will come up to me, once they discover who I am, they’ll open up their hearts and tell me their medical problems. So I know a lot about their eczema, rosacea, diabetes and other problems. And I’m happy to help them. And they feel pretty much open because I’m not timing them, I’m not charging them, I’m not going to ask for their medical insurance. And it’s a great exchange of information. So they value my input, and they usually walk away with a panna cotta, they usually walk away with something that I provide because they like who I am. So there’s the generosity of knowledge. The other thing you can offer is your time. You didn’t know this, but when the COVID hit, a lot of my colleagues were being fired for obvious reasons. So I offered free CV reviews because I have experience hiring pharmacists and technicians. I said, “Submit your resume to me and we’ll help brush it up.” And it was great because people were sending me — I actually opened up publicly to everyone in my community, my neighborhood, and all I could reach. And I got so much response, and people even said, “I liked it because I don’t know who you are, Karine, but I love it that you’re doing it,” so they were referring me, shared my post, and I didn’t charge them for it. I just wanted to look at their CVs, make recommendations, and I send it back to them. So I do it now for pharmacy students and those applying for residencies. Just my opinion, just make it nicer, cleaner. And usually I could find one or two errors, and they’re very appreciative. ‘Oh my gosh, I forgot to add this,’ or ‘Oh my gosh, I didn’t know I had to add a header or footer.’ Those are kind of core things you look at as a director because we get so many resumes for one position in a hospital pharmacy. So it helps to have page numbers and footnotes and lists of references instead of me asking for it. So those are little things that I want people to see what I see. That’s what I offer is my knowledge, time, free product if I can do it, free service. At the end of the day, it makes the consumer, the other person, just like you more, like your company more and guess what? All those people I helped the first few years of my career, of my business, have come back as repeat customers. So I didn’t charge them the first time, but guess what? They’re total lifetime revenue for one customer is well over $100. So is it worth it? Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: Great advice. And the resume service is a good example of serving others, whether it’s product, whether it’s time, you know, I think offering and bringing something valuable and serving others without necessarily a return in mind but just providing that value in the moment, we know reaps great benefits. So I think you articulated the value of saying yes well. I try to follow that advice from mentors I’ve received before. And it’s not about being reckless. I mean, as you mentioned, being the face of the brand, folks are looking for that energy, they’re looking for that enthusiasm, they’re looking for that we’ll figure it out type of mentality as you go along and build some of those relationships. Karine, I really appreciate the time that you’ve taken, the wisdom that you’ve shared. What is the best way for our audience to connect with you to learn more about your journey as well as to follow the work that you’re doing with My Guiltless Treats?

Karine Wong: Very simple, just go to MyGuiltlessTreats.com. On the very bottom of the home page is “Send a Message.” That goes straight to me. All of my emails and phone numbers and even an Instagram/Facebook, you can go onto My Guiltless Treats, it goes straight to me. I don’t believe in hiring a third party marketing agency for that because I want to engage my customers. So if you want to engage with me, just go straight on board to the website, email me, run by your ideas with me or any questions you have about possibly starting a company or a product, and we’ll talk about the feasibility of it. It’s better to rule it out or rule it in as early as possible before you need to put money towards the product or whatever.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. We’ll link to the website in the show notes. We’ll link to some of the social media connection opportunities as well. And again, appreciate you taking the time, sharing your journey and your willingness to also support and encourage other pharmacy entrepreneurs that are out there. So Karine, thank you very much.

Karine Wong: You’re welcome. It was a pleasure, Tim. If you decide to come up with that smoke alarm app, you owe me 10% of the royalties.

Tim Ulbrich: You’ve got it. It’s a promise. Thank you.

Karine Wong: Thanks.

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YFP 193: Building vs Buying a Home: What to Consider

Posted on March 4, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Building vs Buying a Home: What to Consider

On this episode, sponsored by Live Oak Bank, Nate Hedrick, the Real Estate RPh, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss considerations for building vs. buying a home, the pros and cons of building, lending considerations when building a home, and common pitfalls when choosing to build a home.

About Today’s Guest

Nate Hedrick is a 2013 graduate of Ohio Northern University. By day, he is a clinical pharmacist and program advisor for Medical Mutual. By night and weekend, he works with pharmacists to buy, sell, flip, or rent homes as a licensed real estate agent with Berkshire Hathaway in Cleveland, Ohio. He has helped dozens of pharmacists achieve their goal of owning a house and is the founder of www.RealEstateRPH.com, a real estate blog that covers everything from first-time home buying to real estate investing.

Summary

Nate Hedrick, the Real Estate RPh, digs into some important considerations to keep in mind when planning to build a home versus buying a home, how the process for building a home differs from purchasing a pre-existing home, the main approaches to building, and important questions to ask your builder or developer when building in a development or on raw land.

Nate shares his personal experience with his clients in the real estate market and the various motivations for building a home instead of buying. Those who choose to build a home over buying a pre-existing home may be motivated by both the nature of the current housing market and a desire for a variety of customizations to the home.

Nate outlines the many pros and cons when building a home. Benefits of building a home include the level of customization on design based on the builder, creating the home that you want but can’t find in the market, and that new home feeling. Cons when building include the time it takes to complete the home, usually around 9 months, as well as the financial process differing for building a home from the process for buying a pre-existing home.

The two main approaches to building a home are examined: working with a builder or developer to purchase and build on a lot or buying a plot of raw land. When working with a builder or a developer, clients can expect to have a concierge type experience, whereas buying raw land may require purchasers to perform more tests and do additional research to ensure that the land will be viable for the build. To avoid major issues, buyers should include their real estate agent and builder in the entire process of buying and building on raw land. Similarly, when working with a builder or developer, buyers should include their real estate agent in the process as your agent acts as an advocate throughout the buying and building process.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Nate, great to have you back on the show. How you been doing?

Nate Hedrick: Tim, great. Always good to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited to have you back. We had you on Episode 197, Ways to Reduce Your Monthly Costs, and we have some exciting news coming up. Details will be forthcoming. But we’re going to be launching a YFP real estate podcast. Our goal is weekly content for real estate investors, either current investors, pharmacists that just want to learn more, that have been thinking about it but haven’t pulled the trigger. We have heard loud and clear from the YFP community that they want more information on real estate as an investing path. We’ve brought more content in 2021, at the end of 2020. We’ve got more coming ahead. And more information certainly will come. Nate Hedrick is going to play a big role in that effort. So Nate, exciting times ahead, right?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah. I’m really excited. It’s going to be a pretty cool podcast, and we’re bringing back another YFP past guest. We’ll keep it a surprise for now. So excited about all that.

Tim Ulbrich: I love it. And I think you and I, we’ve talked about this extensively, but we know that many pharmacists have inquired about real estate investing. And we have seen firsthand the value that can come from showing examples, stories, the good, the bad, the ugly. And for pharmacists that are thinking about this or even have begun this journey that can see other examples all across the country and of course connect with those folks. And so we’re excited to bring this community together of pharmacist real estate investors. Stay tuned. We won’t announce the exact date of launch or any of that at this point, but wanted to put that on folks’ radar that we’re going to have some more great content coming for you related to real estate investing. So Nate, we’ve been talking a lot about home buying on this show. But something we have not talked as much about is building a home. And I’m excited to dig into this topic and talk through some important considerations to keep in mind if you’re planning on going that route and how the process may differ from buying a home. And this information that we’re going to draw for this episode of which we will link to in the show notes comes from a post on your blog, The Real Estate RPh blog, and that post is 20 questions to ask if you’re building a home. So we will link to that. And this episode is really meant for folks that have been interested in this topic, are thinking about building a home, on the fence about building versus buying. And so we’re going to dig into topics surrounding that. So from what you have seen, Nate, with your clients and in the real estate market, you know, how prevalent is this? Are folks often thinking about building a home instead of buying a pre-existing home?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah. It really depends on the market, but I’m seeing more people going this direction simply because the inventory has been so low recently. With the way the market’s been — actually, I just heard about a client recently that looked for a house for about 2.5 months and there was just nothing. Anything that was coming along was going $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 over asking. And it just became untenable. So they said, ‘Look, we’re just going to sit back, we’re going to renew our lease for another year, we’re going to go ahead and build.’ So I think sometimes it’s something that’s being forced upon people, but other times, you just have someone that goes in and says, ‘Look, we know what we want in a house. We can’t find that in our market today. We’re going to go out and build it, right? We’re going to find the specific spot that we want it to be, and we’re going to get the exact house that we want. This is how we’re going to do it.’

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I just had a similar conversation a couple weeks ago with a pharmacist down in the Raleigh, North Carolina, area. Same thing, you know, very hot market let alone just what we’re seeing national trends in that area specifically and prices where homes were going relative to asking said, ‘You know what, we’re just going to build the thing,’ which I’m guessing is easier said than done as we’ll talk about but is certainly a consideration. What other motivations might folks have? I mean, is it typically just demand? Is it I can’t find anything, these custom aspects that I want? Like what are you seeing from folks in terms of motivation to build?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, a lot of times, it just comes down to if you know what you want or if there are specific things that you want in a home and it’s difficult to find in that particular market, then you can go out and build it, right? So if you are — and actually, it’s funny. My wife and I were running into this recently. We’ve been kind of casually looking at other houses, just to see what else it out there, and keep coming back to the fact that like if we were to really move, I don’t know that I’d want to go get this big, gigantic house, right? I’m more interested in the land and putting our kind of style house on it. And there are other people that fall into that same category. So I think there are a lot of different motivations. But if you want that true customizability and that feeling of like the brand new car, right, that’s where that home building usually tends to come in.

Tim Ulbrich: Now Nate, you and I both know — especially you as an agent — that when you say we’re “casually” looking, that’s a done deal, right? I mean —

Nate Hedrick: No, I look at enough real estate to be able to look at it casually I think. Hopefully.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s true. So high level as we start this conversation, and we’ll dig in in more detail about what are some specific considerations when you’re considering building, whether it’s working with an agent or financing, common mistakes that folks make, but high level, pros and cons of building. You know, for folks that are thinking, yeah, maybe it’s us, maybe it’s not us, like what are some things that folks may want to think of when it comes to making this decision.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, the biggest pro is the full customizability. And this can vary based on the actual builder, right? Some builders are going to give you absolute customization from floor plan to design to fixtures. And even if you don’t get that level, right, there are going to be 10 floor plans to choose from. And within that, you can pick your countertops and your cabinets. Again, it gives you that full range of customizations. If you know exactly what you want or are close, 80% of that you know and you can get the rest of the way, that building allows you to get that full customizability. The real con, though, right — or the couple of cons I guess would be timing. So obviously it takes time to build that house, especially if you’re customizing it from the ground up. You’re looking at the very minimum nine months from that date of contract, usually longer, to really get that home built. So waiting game is there. You’ve also got a different type of lending that goes on. And we can talk about this more. But construction loans are very different than your traditional conventional mortgage. And so there’s other stipulations that go with that, some other fees, and it can make it a little bit more tricky, basically.

Tim Ulbrich: And when you talked about customization, Nate, never have gone through this process. You know, I’m sure some folks look at that and they’re like, that’s incredible. I’ll get to choose every detail. I look at that and say, my gosh, I don’t even know what shirt I’m going to wear on any given day let alone what the knobs are going to look like. So is there a wide range of like if you want to keep it simple, builder may say, ‘Here’s Option A, Option B, Option C.’ And then the details are already contained within that? All the way to every little detail is negotiable along the way.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, it depends on the builder. A lot of times what I’ll see — for the most part — is they’ll offer 3-5 options for a given set of whatever, right? So they’ll say, ‘Your countertops are coming from this supplier. And you’ve got from marble to granite, and these are the preferred options.’ And you’ve got an allowance for that is how they often do it. So they’ll say, ‘Cabinetry allowance is $14,000, and we’re getting it from x, y, and z cabinet maker.’ So then you can go to that particular site or they’ll a lot of times have handouts that you can look through, and it narrows down your options, right? That’s the most common setup. The other cool thing I’ll see a lot is where high end, especially high-end purchases and high end builders will offer a designer as part of that process where you can sit down with them for x number of hours as part of that fee or the cost of building that house, you get x number of billable hours with that designer to pick and choose all those things. And a lot times, those designers will bring with them ideas and collections where they’ll say, ‘Well, if you’re going to choose these cabinets, these are the drawer pulls I recommend.’ Again, you can totally get into the weeds, but that can make that analysis paralysis much, much easier to manage.

Tim Ulbrich: And it always stays on budget, right? I mean, it’s always on budget.

Nate Hedrick: You know, it’s funny, again, these allowances, they offer those but you can pretty quickly break them if you want to.

Tim Ulbrich: I’m sure. I’m sure. Well, it just reminds me like, no judgment here, it’s just human behavior. If I were looking at a home and there were some options involved, like you kind of make one decision that I would suspect has a domino effect on other things that you want to do. So since you talked about the lending piece being different, let’s start there. You mentioned construction loans, which are of course a different animal than conventional home financing, which even within that we’ve also got multiple options we’ve talked about on the show before. Most recently, we had Tony Umholtz from IberiaBank, Episode 191. We talked about 10 common mortgage mistakes but in there talked about some of the financing options. So Nate, talk to us here about lending considerations. You know, what exactly are we dealing with when it comes to construction loans? What’s different? How does this change or not change things like pre-approval and down payments and timing? Walk us through that.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, it’s fairly complicated, actually. I’ve been meaning to like put together a post and digest this because there’s not a lot of great resources out there that actually walk through this. But the idea is that you’ve got two phases to think about when you’re thinking about a construction loan. And again, a lender is probably going to beat this up and say, ‘Well that’s not what you call it,’ but this is how I explain it, right? So you’ve got — we should have Tony back with me, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Nate Hedrick: But you’ve got this kind of pre-build phase where you’ve got to pay for either the land and the lot, right, the location, and then you’ve got to start paying that contractor, that builder, for some of the materials. So before there’s ever a house there, there’s still costs being incurred. So there’s this construction phase of that loan. And then after, when it’s done, you actually have a mortgage. You have a house that’s paying a 30-year fixed rate mortgage or whatever. And so there’s a number of ways that lenders will break that down. Sometimes they’ll do separate loans. You apply for one, you get the construction loan, you go through that, then you will create basically a mortgage that will pay off that construction loan and then go from there. Sometimes you can do a combined process where the loan will be all in one. They call it a single close often where you’ll close once on that construction loan and it will convert to a 30-year fixed mortgage at the end. It varies by lender, there’s advantages and disadvantages to both. It’s a whole separate podcast episode just to talk about that. But the idea is that you want to make sure you have a conversation. It’s not like going out and getting pre-approved for a $500,000 house. There are considerations in terms of well, is the lot or the land included? Right? Is that included in the finance or do I have to pay for that lot in cash? Again, a number of considerations that come up as you start down that road.

Tim Ulbrich: And so speaking of finding a lot to buy and where folks look and buying land, you know, that to me seems like something that could be both exciting and overwhelming. And I’m used to my typical searches for a home on Redfin and Zillow and things like that. Is it same type of process, you know, in terms of finding a lot to buy, where folks look, what makes a good lot, a bad lot? What are things that folks need to consider here?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, so there’s two main approaches to this. So one is that you’re going to — that is kind of the more traditional option, which is that a builder or developer has purchased several acres and they develop that into a neighborhood, right?

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Nate Hedrick: We see this all the time, right? Coming soon, houses starting in the $300,000s, join Orange Village or whatever it is.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Nate Hedrick: You see these. And a lot of times what happens with that is you’re not going out and finding and hunting down a lot. It’s the full concierge package all put together. You go out to the builder, they say, ‘We have 40 lots that we’re preparing to be built upon. You can pick your spot on the street. Here’s our preferred builder or builders.’ A lot of times they’ll have anywhere from one to three builders that they work with on those development lots. And you basically find your lot that way. The other option is to go out and buy raw land. And you can find these on the MLS, you can find them on Craigslist, you can drive around and see some with a sign in the yard. And you can buy raw land and then go out and find your own builder who will come out and custom build on that particular lot. And so the two approaches are very different. One is a much more kind of put together process, going out and actually going to that developer on that particular build lot whereas the other can be much more flexible and a lot of times, you get your truly customizable builds when you’re talking about going out and buying a plot of land and then bringing in a builder to come do that plot.

Tim Ulbrich: And in the first example, Nate, you’ve given, which I drive by those all the time, right? So you see homes for sale. That seems obviously, you know, concierge is probably a good way to think about things kind of customized and put for you together, it’s packaged together, it’s .25 acres or whatever be the lot size. You know it’s ready for water, sewer, all that stuff taken care of. You have comps of that obviously based on the neighborhood. The other one to me is both intriguing/overwhelming. I was just driving by a property yesterday here in Columbus. It was 131 acres for sale. And I’m like, that’s interesting. I don’t know, it’s by the interstate. I was like, there could be something cool you could do with it. And then I stopped right there, right? Because you start to think about like, what is a comp for 131 acres of land like this? And what about being ready for sewage and water and things like that? So any thoughts for folks that are going more that route of I’m just looking for random land that’s out there and putting a home where it may not be as put together for them, if you will. What are those things? I’ve listed a couple, thinking of comps for land, water, sewer, things like that.

Nate HedricK: Yeah, absolutely. So you have a due diligence period on raw land like that where you can start to assess those things, everything from getting like a geotechnical survey, something as simple as a soils test to determine if the soil is appropriate for bearing the structure that you’re talking about. This is a particular problem in certain areas like I think about my in-laws that live in Pittsburgh. So there’s a lot of hills, there’s a lot of old mine shafts, quite honestly — that sounds ridiculous, but that’s a real problem that you contend with as a developer out in Pittsburgh. And so you have to do these site and soil samples to make sure that you’re going to have supportive structures to be able to handle the house that you want to build there. You mentioned hookups, that’s a huge one, right? So if you are out in the country, you might not have access to city water. You might have to put in a septic system and dig a well and again, that well might need to be 100 feet deep, 200 feet deep. Like who knows? Right? If it’s truly, truly raw land, these are all things that you would need to figure out. And so a lot of times what you’ll do is you’ll find a piece of land that you’re interested in and either the seller of that property has done all that work for you and they can say, ‘Here is the site and soils test. Or here’s the survey that we’ve done. There’s already a well. There’s — whatever, you name it.’ Right? They may have done that up front or you can order that yourself. And there are companies that specialize in this. And a lot of times, your agent will actually help you coordinate with those companies. You can often go to your builder because your builder will have the specs needed to make those decisions. And so I often recommend that if you’re going to be doing this, it’s not a buy land, find a builder later. It’s do it all at once because you want that person involved.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Nate Hedrick: You want the architects involved, you want the surveyors involved, the builders involved, all at the same time to make sure you’re not going to run into a problem.

Tim Ulbrich: Now I suspect the question I’m going to ask here is, ‘it depends,’ but I’m going to ask it anyways. One of the other thoughts I have as I look at raw land periodically just out of interest that folks may be wondering if they’re doing the same build a home is resale value. So especially when you get into perhaps unique pieces of land, unique customized properties, I could see an argument on both sides of that, either hey, it’s a unique piece, it stands out, there’s not a lot of other things like it. Or maybe not as many people are in the market for something like that. So is it a ‘it depends’ situation, just every property, every area where when you get into a customized home, customized piece of land, in terms of resale?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah. I’m stealing from Tim Baker, right? It definitely depends. But there is some speculation to draw in too. There’s actually a number of investors out there that will buy raw land for the sheer purpose of saying, “OK, I know that this market is booming and it’s starting to expand. I think it’s coming this direction in the next 10 years, so I’ll go buy this property that I expect to be worth 10 times this, but I have to wait 8 years to get there.” So it can be very speculative in terms of that value. But the other thing that’s nice is that if you are in like a municipality or a city and there’s land there, you can often compare that land value on a cost per acre to other land in the area. So if you — especially like something where we live in Ohio, everything’s flat and easy to kind of figure out. If you’ve got a 1-acre parcel in x city, it’s potentially pretty similar to another 1-acre parcel in that same city. And here’s why. And so you can compare those somewhat easily in certain areas. But in others, it’s almost impossible.

Tim Ulbrich: That makes sense. And you know, you had talked about some key people of the team. And I think you do a great job when you’re talking about home buying or home building in this case and considerations, how important the team is. So we talked about the lending piece and we’ve mentioned the agent piece and the builder piece. But we haven’t talked about that in detail. So let’s start with the agent piece. How does a real estate agent support someone building a home? And how does this differ from those that might be looking to buy a pre-existing home in terms of who they might be looking for?

Nate Hedrick: This, again, kind of depends on if we’re talking about building in that development or building in the middle of nowhere or on raw land. But in both cases, you absolutely want to have an agent on your team. I think it’s obvious a lot of times if I’m going out and buying raw land and getting a builder that it might be helpful to have an agent in that case. But it doesn’t seem as obvious when you’re talking about, again, that concierge model we talked about where you’re going to a site plan, they’ve got a model home, their office is open, they’ve got all these friendly real estate agents there. It often feels like I shouldn’t even need anybody to help represent me. But the reality is you absolutely should. And it costs you almost nothing to do that. The agent being involved is your representative, right? The person that’s selling that property, they are trying to sell that property for as much as they possibly can. So even if you’re going to a development, 50 homes available, everything’s done for you, you absolutely want to have that agent as the core member of your team to help with things like negotiating the contract. I’ll give you a great example. I have a client that I’m working with right now. And our early conversations with the builder, they cited this great, gorgeous rooftop deck, OK? And they said, the rooftop deck, you can add it on for I think it was — I don’t know — maybe $15,000. Let’s just say it was that. And it was this awesome like you could see downtown and you can see the lake from downtown. This place is gorgeous. And they quoted it at $15,000 early on. Well that property started blowing up in popularity. And it got really hot really fast. And so we were in but kind of negotiating the contract still. And so we get to kind of the closing bit of figuring out this contract, and they said, “Oh yeah, and that rooftop deck. It will be $22,000.” We said, “Hold on.” And you know, at the time, the buyers were like, “Well, that’s just what we have to do.” I said, “No, I’ve got some notes here.” So I went back and we looked at it, and we had clear indications from the buyer — or from the builder that it was a $15,000 add-on.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Nate Hedrick: And so I was able to help negotiate that back down and save them that $7,000. So having an advocate on your team, somebody that knows this stuff inside and out is absolutely essential.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. And not only an advocate, but an advocate that takes good notes and is ready to act on your behalf as well.

Nate Hedrick: Helps to have a detail-oriented pharmacist as your agent I suppose. But really, again, that agent is going to also grow the rest of your team from there, right? So if you need inspectors, if you need a lender, if you need a title company, again, most of the time the seller’s going to have the preferred title company that they’re working with or the preferred lender that they’re working with. But you still want someone on your team that can grow that, the rest of that process if you need it.

Tim Ulbrich: And for those listening to this episode, if you’re looking to buy or build a home in 2021, as you likely have heard us talk about on this show before, we’re excited about our partnership with Nate, The Real Estate RPh, for the Real Estate Concierge service that he can help get you connected with an agent that is local to your area but also be alongside for the process, talk to you at the beginning, walk you through along the way, be a second set of eyes, help you think about the beginning to the end, and work with that agent locally as well. So you can learn more at YourFinancialPharmacist.com. You can click on “Buy or Refi a Home,” and then “Find an Agent,” and that will get you Nate. And you guys can schedule a quick discovery call to see if that’s a good fit for what you are looking for. So we talked about the agent, Nate. The builder is one that comes to mind as well. You know, we’ve all heard horror stories of I was working with this builder, they went bankrupt, something happened. I feel like any neighborhood I’ve been in, there’s always been a story of like, oh this stopped here in the neighborhood because this happened. So talk to us about — of course it depends on some level, but considerations when working with and finding a builder.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, this is exactly why I put together that blog post that you mentioned about the 20 questions to ask if you’re building a home because there are a number of things that I see my clients not even realize they should be asking up front. It starts very, very simply, right? You want to kind of get an idea of how long they’ve been in business, look at the number of homes they’ve built, look at the number of homes they’ve built in your area as well. So you know, if they’re brand new to Cleveland, Ohio, they’ve never built here before and they’re used to working in a different state, they may not be ready for some of the things that come up with building in this particular location. So getting questions about have you built in this municipality before? Have you dealt with the city, the planning committee, the zoning committee, this architect, you name it? All that stuff, you want to make sure there’s some sort of background going into that. So a lot of the questions that I often mention to my clients revolve around proving that that person is experienced enough to handle what we’re dealing with and then also licensed and insured in all those things as well so that if something does go wrong, you’ve got kind of this backup to make sure that you’re not going to lose your money or anything like that. And from there, it really grows to questions about the specifics in terms of are you looking for more energy saving features? Are you looking for more customization? Right? Because certain builders are going to be more customizable than others. Or perhaps maybe they only do certain types of appliances, and you really want the top-of-the-line. So those are all questions that you want to ask as you get into the weeds. But always start with those broader questions about experience and making sure that they’re appropriate for the job.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, Nate. And again, to the community, the conversation we’re having today comes from an article that Nate wrote on the Real Estate RPh blog, “20 Questions to Ask if You’re Building a Home.” We’ll link to that in the show notes. And again, if you’re in the market for buying or building a home in 2021, make sure to head on over to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, click on “Buy or Refi a Home,” and we’ve got additional resources available to you right on that site in addition to an option to find an agent, which Nate can help you throughout that process. So Nate, as always, appreciate your time and your willingness to share your expertise with the YFP community.

Nate Hedrick: Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Tim.

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YFP 192: Findings from the 2021 Pharmacist Salary Guide

Posted on February 25, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Findings from the 2021 Pharmacist Salary Guide

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Alex Barker, founder of The Happy PharmD, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss takeaways from the 2021 Pharmacist Salary Guide, including the current state of the job market, trends in salary and compensation, and contributors to job stress and dissatisfaction.

About Today’s Guest

Alex Barker is a pharmacist, entrepreneur, author, and creator of The Happy PharmD and the Happy PharmD Summit.

Summary

Alex Barker, founder of The Happy PharmD, breaks down the 2021 Pharmacist Salary Guide, a helpful resource for pharmacists to understand trends in salary, the job market, and job satisfaction and stress. Alex and his team gathered data from multiple sources and reports to help share trends about the pharmacy job market. Alex shares that pharmacists are still well paid, earn a salary in the six-figure range, and are seeing a small increase in pay, however there are trends that pharmacists should be aware of when it comes to salary changes.

Alex first digs into the low ceiling pharmacists have on their salary. While pharmacists are very well paid when just getting out of college, especially when compared to other similar professions, after 20 years they may only see an additional $12,000 added on to their salary even if their job performance exceeds expectations. Some salary starting numbers may be even lower and it is difficult to work your way up to a top tier salary. He discusses that pay is based on what type of pharmacist position you hold. The highest paid positions are in management, pharma, and nuclear pharmacy, however a small percentage of pharmacists hold those types of positions.

He explains that the reason for such a small increase in pay is due to a ‘perfect storm’ he’s seeing in the pharmacy job market. Alex describes that due to the supply and demand of pharmacists, this perfect storm has been created: 13,000-14,000 pharmacists graduate each year, ⅓ of current pharmacists (~100,000) are looking for a new job, and a negative job growth is predicted due to the oversupply of pharmacists (321,000 jobs decrease to 311,200). Because of this, it’s important to consider your career trajectory. Alex also talks about satisfaction and job stress and Job Rx, a new job board that pulls open pharmacy positions from employment sites.

Click here to download a free copy of the 2021 Pharmacist Salary Guide.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Alex, welcome to the show.

Alex Barker: Thanks for having me, Tim. I enjoy hanging out with you.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s been awhile, specifically Episode 092 when we talked about creating an indispensable pharmacy career all the way back in March of 2019. But for those in our audience that may not know you, I know many folks do know you and the work that you’re doing with the Happy PharmD. But tell us a little bit about your pharmacy career and the work that you are currently doing with the Happy PharmD.

Alex Barker: Happy to, but first I want to acknowledge — was it Episode 092?

Tim Ulbrich: 092.

Alex Barker: So you had me on 100 episodes later.

Tim Ulbrich: Nailed it.

Alex Barker: Wow, good job.

Tim Ulbrich: That was planned. No, I’m just kidding. It wasn’t.

Alex Barker: Yeah, so I’m Alex Barker. I’m a pharmacist. I graduated in 2012, did a residency, went into clinical practice, did not enjoy myself and struggled to find my way with my career. That led me to business, led me to coaching people, led me to creating a few other media companies and other crazy, random ideas. And then I saw, unfortunately, the need of our profession. A lot of people are burned out, a lot of people are unhappy, unfulfilled in their positions. So I took coaching along with our profession and kind of married it into this Happy PharmD where we help pharmacists and coach them into better careers and jobs, doing that since 2017 now.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Alex Barker: We’ve got — yeah, it’s crazy.

Tim Ulbrich: It is.

Alex Barker: If it was back in 2019 that I was last here, I think we only had maybe four coaches including myself. We now have 11. And we have an awesome team, support team, we’re doing research. Lots of crazy stuff. And a good colleague of yours now is our lead coach, Jackie Boyle.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Alex Barker: Who is at NEOMed in Ohio. So yeah. That’s what we do here at the Happy PharmD. And I know why you brought me on was to go over trends and what’s going on in the job market and specifically in pharmacists’ salaries. So, happy to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And for those that are not familiar, make sure you check it out, TheHappyPharmD.com. We’ll link to it in the show notes. And Alex, as you mentioned, today is a topic that I know is of interest to our community, one that I enjoy talking about on the show as well as our folks are certainly interested. What’s happening in the job market? What’s happening with the current state of jobs? And you have an incredible annual salary guide of which we will link to in the show notes and I mentioned in the introduction that distills data about pharmacist salaries, salary changes, job stress, job satisfaction, and overall the pharmacy job market. And one of the things you talk about in there, which we’ll get to towards the end of the show is the perfect storm and what that means as it relates to where we are as a profession. So you’ve been doing this now for several years, is that right, Alex? The salary guide?

Alex Barker: Since 2015, which meant we were looking at 2014 data. So yes, we’ve been doing this many, many years. We have a lot of data, and it’s — frankly, it’s all over the place. It’s a little frustrating. But we’ve got a good — you’ll be able to see in charts and graphs, you’ll be able to compare yourself to others. I’d recommend you look at yourself where you’re at rather than the trends as a whole, but we can dive into those here. Where would you like to hit first?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, so my first question, Alex, is there’s other resources out there, you know, a couple that come to mind, several state associations do this, I know we do here in Ohio, there’s the Pharmacy Workforce Survey, which I believe happens every five years, one published last year. So what’s the need for this? Tell me more about why you felt like there was a gap and an opportunity to fill that gap with this resource.

Alex Barker: So one of the things that I like to do whenever I’m looking at a complex problem is multiple resources. You know what, that’s not really unique. I think every pharmacist does that, especially when we’re researching a disease state or a new drug. We’ve got to have the whole picture, right? And one of the things that frustrated me about the multiple reports were the indiscrepancies and the different numbers. So I didn’t really see anyone else putting all of this information together in one place. So that’s why I started way back in 2015 working on this report. I think I published it originally on Pharmacy Times. And we had since now put it on our website because obviously we weren’t around in 2015. I like looking at seeing multiple sources of data, multiple reports, to see and to look for those trends. Right? Because I think we all have hearsay and, you know, secondhand stories of —

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Alex Barker — what’s happening in the job market. And there is some truth to that. And then we actually have some solid data for some of those hearsay stories. But overall, we can say that pharmacists are still well paid. We’re still in the six-figure range. We are continuing to see a very small overall increase in our pay, albeit that it is very slow and it is slower in comparison to the majority of other health professions. But we are seeing some trends that we should all be aware of when it comes to salary changes.

Tim Ulbrich: And Alex, one of those that you talk about in the guide that I know is something that is of interest to me and the financial plan because these topics are very connected I think for obvious reasons is that when it comes to pharmacist’s salary, of course we’d expect to see some difference based on experience, depending on areas of practice of which we can dig into further. But one of the things you mentioned is that there’s an extremely low ceiling for pharmacists. And this is one of those things — speaking of hearsay — that I have always thought is of course varies based on positions and we know that some areas, there’s more long-term upside and maybe some longer term growth opportunities, but for many pharmacists, outside of cost of living adjustments, if that sometimes, that there’s a relatively low ceiling of where you start, which is a great blessing, may not be too far off from where you end. And you know, that matters for a whole lot of reasons when we talk about the financial plan. So give me your read on that. You know, tell us more about what you’ve found and why is that so significant?

Alex Barker: We should be well aware as pharmacists, we are very well paid for just getting out of college. If you compare our education, the length of it as well as the job market and compare it to other similar professions, we are more likely to be paid higher. So according to a report by Pay Scale, which was the only one, unfortunately, that looked at years of experience with an annual average wage, you’re looking at about $113,000 is the average starting salary for less than years experience, which is, I mean, insane. If you told that to a high schooler, you’d get their ears to perk up.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Alex Barker: However, if you add on years of experience, so if you work in the profession 20+ years, according to this report, you’re only adding about $12,000 more per year to your salary, which I never realized that when I went through education. I never had my eyes open to that problem, but like that should be a sinking feeling that it doesn’t really matter how much harder you work, it doesn’t matter how long you work with a company, chances are your salary will not increase. In fact, for an institution I worked for, it was very clear that after a certain amount of time, years of experience, that my salary would increase incrementally up to a point. And then at that point, I was locked at the rate at which, you know, the cost of living increases, which in my area, is very low. So —

Tim Ulbrich: Regardless of performance, regardless of performance, right?

Alex Barker: Right. Right. And I would not say that I was an above-average pharmacist. I would say that I was just kind of in the middle. And it didn’t matter. And what made me the most frustrated was that finding out the amount of money that people got for doing insanely well. We had a few amazing pharmacists on our team. They worked really, really hard. And I found out that their — when they exceeded expectations was the measure that they had to get in their annual review, that when they got that, it equated to about $1,500. $1,500. And if you take that, you divide it by the hours that you work, I mean, it isn’t worth it. It isn’t worth it at all to even try harder. And so what we’ve kind of created, unfortunately, in this perfect storm, one factor of it is we have a profession where we are not rewarded for effort. And that’s disconcerting. It creates complacency, I would say for sure. I mean, it did within me when I was a clinician.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think especially at a time where you and I both know, we need some innovation, we need some risk-taking, we need some great ideas coming forward. And you know, compensation of course isn’t the only way that’s going to drive that. But certainly, you know, a low ceiling, as you mentioned in the report, may subtly not encourage high performance. And I think that’s a noteworthy thing. And of course, it goes without saying, we’re generalizing here. As you look at this data across the profession, there are certainly areas of the profession where there’s more upward mobility, I would use management/admin type of positions on the health systems side as one example. But there are certainly others. And of course when it comes to the financial plan, what screams to me here, Alex, is that you have to if this is going to be true for your career and the trajectory, you have to be that much more diligent about the financial plan from Day 1. Right? Because naturally what happens is expenses are going to go up if we let them. And so over time, if expenses go up proportionally but salaries do not, we’ve got a problem in terms of being able to achieve all the financial goals that we do. Another way of looking at this if we want to be a little bit more half-glass full is that you do have a great salary at a very young age coming out of school. And if you’re able to keep those expenses down, you’ve got a long trajectory where that money can be saved, you can have compound growth and other things where other professions, while there might be more upwards trajectory, it might take them longer to get to a point of savings. But of course, we haven’t talked about the $175k of debt that our graduates are taking on. Separate story for another day. So when we look at the pharmacist’s salary based on job sector, we know that there are a lot of avenues pharmacists can take in their pharmacy profession throughout their career. So tell us a little bit more about the variation you see in terms of jobs that have higher salary ranges, jobs that have lower salary ranges.

Alex Barker: I don’t think people will be too surprised, but perhaps maybe by the amount. So based on where people are working and the kind of job that they’re working, which by the way — don’t try to do this yourself, OK? Don’t go to look at all these reports because they call pharmacists by different names. I mean, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which is a U.S. government organization, defines one of our professions as working at food and beverage stores. Tim, I’ll be honest, I don’t know what a food and beverage store is. It’s not a gas station. And they already have general merchandise stores and pharmacies and drug stores. So maybe I’m missing — I live in Michigan, so I haven’t been all over the world. I don’t know what this is. So where are the great paying jobs? Like you said, it comes down to management jobs, they are clearly paid more. We’re looking at ranges anywhere from $15,000 to even $25,000 more. We know that pharma jobs, particularly higher management jobs, pay extremely well. Nuclear pharmacist is one of the top-paying patient care jobs. JobRx reported that their average was at $157,000, which is very, very high. And again, we’re also seeing similar trends that where there is more responsibility, so more prescribing ability, we see pharmacists being paid higher, so clinical pharmacist roles, whereas where we’ve seen the lowest paid pharmacists, we’re seeing those typically in mail-order and PBMs. We’re seeing it in medical marijuana places, mail pharmacies. And as everyone would expect, we are seeing lower salaries, trending downward, in chains and of course independents, long-term care. Now, to clarify, everyone’s got opinions on these things. ‘Oh, well, I know of this person who got this. And I’m paid this.’ It’s trends. We have to keep all of this with a grain of salt because the reporting from each of these sources varies greatly. So I’m herding cats here, and I’m just telling you about my experience with it, OK? It’s challenging.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure. And it’s a good point, I mean, I hope our listeners will take it with a grain of salt. But it’s a great opportunity to see what’s out there. And what’s of concern to me, Alex, is I’m thinking of the distribution of pharmacists by practice, and that first group that you mentioned, management/admin positions, industry and nuclear pharmacy I think were the three you mentioned, that is a small sliver of the pie. Right? The bigger chunk of the pie is the community positions, is the managed care positions. And so I think it is something that we have to consider and we have to take seriously in terms of the significance. Now, hearsay — speaking of hearsay — one thing I have heard that I think is easy for us to hear and say, “Oh my gosh, the salaries of pharmacists, it’s falling apart,” and that is the instances of somebody starting at $35 an hour, $40 an hour, you know, and is it because of a saturated market? Is it because of this or that? Are they perhaps part-time? You know, 32 is kind of the new normal, what we’ve seen here in Ohio. Tell us more, give us the data. What are you actually seeing when it comes to these numbers of, “Hey, I’m starting at $35 or $40.” Is this isolated? Is it more widespread?

Alex Barker: Hearing you say that makes me feel like maybe I’m the one that needs to collect those reports and that data because no one is. You’re right, it’s all anecdotal. I’ve seen it in your Facebook group, I’ve seen people report some of the offers that they’re getting. It’s abysmal. The worst I have heard is $28 an hour. That’s a floating position. I think it was in Austin, Texas or one of the major cities in Texas. And we know that these typically are retail chain positions that are offering these insanely low salaries. We also do have reports of it happening as well in hospital positions. And we also know that there are a few remote clinical positions that are very low as well. And so we’re talking like MTM jobs where you’ve got a lot of flexibility. You work when you want to. But you’re looking at an annual salary of maybe $70,000-80,000. That’s not true across the board, but that’s what we are receiving reports from from the people that get jobs because occasionally, we do salary negotiations for people as well. But the only evidence we have as far as an actual report that’s been shown that I enjoyed seeing this year was drug topics. So if you look at their 2020 base salary, you see this very concerning skew of data — and I’ll send you a picture of this as well so you can put it in the podcast notes if you can do that, I don’t know — but you’ll see that 13%, which is a huge number of people, at the end of their report were receiving less than $70,000 a year or less. And unfortunately, what they didn’t report in this data is the number of people in that bracket who were full-time or part-time. But we do know that the total amount of people was only 13% as well that worked part-time. So I’d have to venture a guess that that 13% that worked part-time, you know, potentially were majorly in that bracket of 13% reporting that, I don’t know. But unfortunately, what we are seeing is because of the glut, because of how easy it is to hire a pharmacist, particularly in a very generic role, we are seeing a lower salary being offered to those pharmacists. And we — based on what we just talked about, that low ceiling, you should assume that you will not — you’re not going to work your way to the top tier salary, $120,000-140,000 if you’re being started at $70,000 annual.

Tim Ulbrich: And where you start matters for obvious reasons. It matters when you’ve got $175,000 of student loan debt, it matters when hopefully if you have something like an employer retirement match, you know, 4% of $70,000 versus 4% of $120,000, that matters over time and compound interest and growth. So question for you here — and I know this is more complicated than we have time to unravel, but what’s the reason? You know, is it simply that we’ve got supply and demand, we’ve got 13,000+ grads coming out per year, pharmacists aren’t retiring at the rate that we thought they may. Is it more about the evolution of the pharmacist’s role and we’re seeing faulty business models and not only those that are being strained financially from existing models but new, innovative ones not popping up that can just find new positions? Like what do you see as the main culprit here?

Alex Barker: Supply and demand. I am not a labor or economics expert.

Tim Ulbrich: Come on, Alex! No, I’m just kidding.

Alex Barker: I did consider getting a PhD once, but no. Not my thing.

Tim Ulbrich: And then you saw the light.

Alex Barker: I did. But now what we have is this perfect storm, as I alluded to in further of our salary guide. The perfect storm is approximately 13,000-14,000 pharmacy students graduating every year entering into the job market, approximately one-third of the current job market — so about 100,000 pharmacists — is looking for a new job — and that’s based off of the AACP national workforce study — and then we also have the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics predicting a negative job growth from 321,000 to I think it’s like 311,000.

Tim Ulbrich: Correct.

Alex Barker: So by the way, if numbers confuse you, if I’m saying a lot of numbers, check out the report. It’s all there. Because if I was listening to this, I’d be like, what did he just say? But you’ve got this gestalt of a problem where each factor is creating a much more complex issue. But ultimately, what we have is the main positions that pharmacists take, i.e. hospitals and community pharmacy, and we’re a dime a dozen. I asked on LinkedIn managers, approximately how many applications do you get per job? And it was anywhere from 60 on the low end to I think the highest was over 210. And so if you are a smart manager, you are going to think what is my biggest cost? Employees. So if I have that many people, am I going to give them a compelling offer when if I don’t get my top pick, I probably will get my second, third, fourth, fifth —

Tim Ulbrich: Who are all pretty darn good.

Alex Barker: Maybe even my 15th pick.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Alex Barker: Because someone’s going to take this offer. Right? We’re pharmacists, we have a PharmD, we’re doctorates, we’re insanely capable people. So you know, getting your 15th pick isn’t the worst thing in the world for them. For our profession, however, what suffers ultimately is our salary, our buying power. We no longer have that. And back in the 2000s, we had that inflated need, right? We needed pharmacists. You got signing bonuses, you got cars when you got offered a job. I don’t know if students are told that anymore, but that’s the way it was. And now, everything’s flipped on its head. We’re in the exact opposite situation, albeit that there is a huge hiring phase happening right now simply because of the COVID jobs.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Alex Barker: We’re seeing a ton of people readily take those. But these pharmacists are just probably going to be in the same situation once this vaccination rush passes through. It isn’t like we’re going to need all those pharmacists again to vaccinate every single year. They’re going to figure out cheaper ways. And everyone knows you can pay a nurse a lot less to vaccinate people. So this temporary demand is not going to last.

Tim Ulbrich: Now, I am — and I’m be remiss if I didn’t say, Alex, my audience knows this — I am a half-glass full type of person. And I will say the one thing — and it does not mitigate the concerns here — but the one thing that stands out to me here is, as I alluded to early today, I do think we desperately need some innovation, thinking a little bit differently, people taking calculated risk. And when you’ve got $175,000 of student loan debt and you have $120,000 contract that’s there to sign, it’s very hard to make an otherwise decision, right? I mean, it’s classic golden handcuffs situation. And I do think there’s a lot of pharmacists out there that have great ideas. And one of the reasons we’re so passionate about the financial plan side of it is that we know the financial pressures are very much connected to the career opportunities, the willingness to do either, whether it’s starting something or even just enjoying the work that you do and having some choice. So I am hopeful. I am also concerned that lower salary and a debt load that continues to climb is a compound problem. But there is also perhaps an opportunity out there where folks may now say, “OK, I can make $70,000, or I might go do this.” And that, “I might go do this,” might be something that’s of perhaps more interest or even an opportunity to pursue.

Alex Barker: You bring up a really good point that I didn’t consider in writing this guide is particularly for new grads, considering your career trajectory is insanely important for determining your financial plan because if you think right now that now’s a good time to be a clinician, trends are showing that clinicians, people who are able to prescribe or have some sort of agreement with a doctor, those jobs, we’re not seeing a major increase in those salaries. In fact, we’re seeing students — or I should say residents being offered less and less money. So you know, if you think you’re wanting to make a lot of money later in your career and you’re willing to work up to that, there are plenty of opportunities out there. We didn’t even go over the fact that as a pharmacist, you’re more than qualified to be a pharmaceutical sales rep. And that has an amazingly high ceiling. You could be paid insanely well. It is not a pharmacist job. It’s not a typical one. But you are overqualified to do it, and if you have the ability, if you have those natural gifts to sell, the ceiling’s really high. And so I think — you know, this is something I didn’t consider, so I’m glad you brought it up, Tim — that when considering your financial future, there is a space for you to take a job that pays you less if the trajectory, if the potential plan of that path could pay you a whole lot more because the reality is that as a clinician, your salary is not going to dramatically increase. One minor report that I didn’t touch on in my report is that Drug Topics said 41%, but in their report reported additional income in 2020, anywhere from the majority of them making around $1,000-5,000 in extra income. Now, they didn’t say how they made that money, but the case is that people, they want to make more. They’ve got things to do with that money.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Alex Barker: So consider your career trajectory wisely. If you’re looking at the $175,000 and thinking, I need to pay this all down, you know, don’t make the mistake of rushing into a job that just pays well but is a dead end.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yep.

Alex Barker: That’s just a risk to take.

Tim Ulbrich: Got to think about the 30- to 40-year timeline. And here, we’re talking salary, which is one component but certainly not the only, right? We could have a pharmacist who’s got multiple job offers, is making great money, but they may not like the work that they’re doing or it may be stressful. So talk to us about satisfaction, job stress. Obviously we know job stress correlates to the rate of dissatisfaction that pharmacists are feeling in their work. What did you find here in the reports as far as the number of pharmacists, percentage of pharmacists generally speaking that are either satisfied/dissatisfied in their work and tell us more about those findings.

Alex Barker: Your term earlier, golden handcuffs, I think captures the feeling that most have. According to Drug Topics, they reported 44% are unhappy with their jobs. But a third of the entire group that they surveyed was looking for another job because of their unhappiness with their current one. I think they asked some wrong questions in their survey, but in my interpretation, we’re looking at 7 out of 10 pharmacists were not satisfied with their jobs. And we all practically I think know the reasons why pharmacists are unhappy across the board. But there are some other reports that show that we actually have a higher satisfaction score than that. Pay Scale said that we’re about 74% satisfied, which was higher than what I thought. AACP said 58%. But the pharmacists that were the most happy were those that were in independent community pharmacies, ambulatory care, or non-patient care, which kind of goes back to our problem — you and I have talked about this numerous times. We as pharmacists, we’ve got an identity crisis. If we’re supposed to be patient care-oriented, then why are people who are not in patient care more happy than those that are in patient care. Another survey question in that AACP report was that only 27% of people said — agreed to the statement, “I feel happy at work.” Grinds my gears. I’m supposed to be the Happy Pharmacist, but I’m not happy about that.

Tim Ulbrich: I mean, it’s heavy. And you know, again, this goes back to your comment — I hope the new practitioners and even the students listening are really thinking about the long horizon and trajectory. And this again goes back to me — for me, obviously, the financial plan and cost of living. If you rise your cost of living and everything that comes with it right out of the gates because you’re now going from -30 and debt every year to make $110,000 or $120,000, it is very hard to walk that back. Very hard to walk that back. And if you can hold the line — and I understand certainly this is easier for me to say in Ohio or you to say up in Michigan that may not be as easy for folks that are in higher cost of living areas. But if you can hold that line, especially as you’re going through this transitionary period where you’ve got multiple competing financial priorities, you’ve got typically big student debt loads, you’re trying to really understand what you do or do not like in the work that you’re doing, give yourself options. You know, we talk about all the time, put yourself in the driver seat rather than that being dictated for you. And I think, of course, this discussion certainly emphasizes that as well. Alex, I want to wrap up, you mentioned earlier in the episode talking about the Job Rx. Tell us more about Job Rx. You talk about that in the guide as well. What is Job Rx? And what can folks expect to get from that resource?

Alex Barker: Yeah, Job Rx is a website from a friend of mine, mutual friend of yours, Kevin Miro (?). And I included in this report simply because of some of this newer data that he’s been finding in his job board. If you look at the powers that be, there is a pharmacy demand report, which stated in the 4th quarter of 2020, only 12,000 new pharmacist jobs were created, which is not great but not awful either, which you know, kind of just makes me think like OK, doing the numbers in my head, it makes sense why we’re getting 100 applications per job. But Job Rx is — essentially, it’s a job board where it pulls in all these jobs from employers’ websites into one place so you can apply and get notified when the newest jobs are created. He reported to me that in December of 2020, they added 12,800 pharmacist jobs in one month versus this other demand report that said that that’s how many jobs were created over the entire quarter. This gave me a lot more hope than I’ve ever had before because I’ve never been able to have access to that kind of information or technology that says OK, what exactly is the job reports and how are you getting that data? He also — and I share this in the report as well — that 16,000 pharmacist jobs were added in January of 2021. So when I hear these numbers, I am a lot more hopeful. I do think that they are slightly probably more than what we would expect simply because of the COVID hire push that is going on. But ultimately, this is potentially an amazing resource for pharmacists to finally find the jobs that are out there. And I’ll make one final note that from what I could tell, the vast majority of these jobs, though, were community and health systems-related, long-term care, hospitals, things like that. So right now, I still know that the majority of the buzz, what everyone is selling as the promised land, is the nontraditional roles, right, the pharma, the work-from-home, the remote. And those are still out there, they are possible. But they are certainly not as available as hospital and community jobs.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And our community can check that out, JobRx.com. We’ll link to it in the show notes. I think certainly a resource that’s going to afford us an opportunity to have some more real-time data, some more up-to-date information that I know will be helpful to not only pharmacists looking for positions to perhaps — I often found myself in a faculty administrative role trying to advise and help students looking for jobs. I see some value there as well. So JobRx.com, again, we’ll link to in the show notes. Alex, where is the best place that our community can go to connect with you, to follow the work that you’re doing and to stay up-to-date on information that we’re talking about here today?

Alex Barker: I’d love it if you connect with me on LinkedIn, that’s where I hang out, it’s where I spend the most amount of my time. We do have Instagram and Facebook, but after watching The Social Dilemma, I don’t know. I’m just trying to stay on one and not try to give away too much information about my life. But yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn. I’d love to have a conversation with you and I try to have one with every single person that connects with me. So that would be a great place to check it out. Otherwise, you can go to TheHappyPharmD.com where we’ve got a lot of resources, blogs about career paths and of course this salary guide.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, Alex. We’ll link to Alex’s LinkedIn profile in the show notes as well as of course TheHappyPharmD.com and the salary guide. Alex, thank you again for joining us and sharing your insights and expertise on this important topic as we talk about the state of the job market and our profession. Appreciate it.

Alex Barker: Thanks, Tim, for having me.

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YFP 191: 10 Common Mortgage Mistakes to Avoid

Posted on February 18, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

10 Common Mortgage Mistakes to Avoid

On this episode sponsored by LendKey, Tony Umholtz, a Mortgage Manager for IBERIABANK/First Horizon joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss 10 common mortgage mistakes homebuyers make and steps you can take to avoid them.

About Today’s Guest

Tony graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants and the New England Patriots. Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Summary

Tony Umholtz, a mortgage manager for IBERIABANK/First Horizon, digs into 10 common mortgage mistakes to avoid what he sees people make in the home buying process. The first is not fully understanding in advance the common loan types and considerations or differences of each. Tony breaks down what conventional, FHA, VA, and other unique products, like the pharmacist home loan, are and what borrowers need to be aware of. The second falls into the category of credit blunders, like overestimating your credit score, relying on third-party services (which often provide inaccurate credit scores), utilizing no interest credit cards which could negatively impact your credit, and waiting too long to resolve issues you have with it. The third common mistake is not shopping around for a mortgage lender. Tony expresses that it’s important to find the right product and that some internet-based companies may be great for a mortgage refinance but are hard to work with for a home purchase. The fourth mistake is searching for a house before you get pre-approved. Tony shares that a pre-approval letter shows sellers that you’re serious and can also make you aware of any red flags you may have on your credit report. The fifth is underestimating how much cash you need to close. Tony explains that not only do you need money for a downpayment, but you always need to have money saved for an insurance premium (as well as possible flood insurance coverage), taxes, and closing costs.

The sixth is delayed communications with the lender, title agency, and real estate agents which can make or break a transaction. The seventh is making a home buying decision before you’re ready. Tim shares that you can’t make a decision about any part of your financial plan in a silo and have to consider how each will affect another. Number eight is not thoroughly evaluating how home buying fits in with other financial goals you may have and number nine is not thinking about the money you’ll need after you close for items such as furniture, lawn equipment, etc. The last common mortgage mistake to avoid is misunderstanding or misevaluating mortgage discount points. Tony explains that you should always ask for a no-point quote initially. He shares that points are essentially prepaid interest and that by purchasing a point you’re buying down the interest rate. However, he says that you really have to evaluate this decision and that it’s not always the best move to make.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, welcome back on the show.

Tony Umholtz: Tim, thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited for this discussion here in 2021 as we have you back, talking about 10 common mortgage mistakes homebuyers make and steps that folks can take to avoid these mistakes. And many of these come from either personal experience or ones that we know are often being made, so we’re going to go through these one-by-one and certainly lean into your expertise to hopefully give folks a guide of what are some things that they can be aware of going into the lending process, whether that’s a first-time home buy, second time, third time, or refinance and then hopefully put in some steps to prevent those from happening in the future. So Tony, the first one I have here that I know often comes up is that folks may not fully understand in advance the common loan types and the considerations and differences for each. And so before we talk about the pharmacist home loan through IBERIABANK/First Horizon aka “the doctor loan,” give us an overview at a high level of conventional, FHA and VA loans as I suspect those are the main ones our community will already have some familiarity with and perhaps some experience with. You know, generally speaking, how do these work? What’s the difference between them? And what are some important considerations for lendees when pursuing these types of loans?

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, sure. Great question. And that’s definitely the most common types of loans that are out there and that you’ll hear about. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, we call them the GSEs, which is Government-Sponsored Entity, they provide conventional financing. And thank God we have them, right? I mean, they really keep our housing market alive. And then we have of course FHA and VA loans, which are backed by — we call it Ginnie Mae, which is HUD, which is also a government program. And those are the main key loans that are out there. There’s also portfolio products, unique, nichey products such as the pharmacist product that we’ve discussed that banks, individual banks, can hold on their balance sheet as well, which don’t have a traditional investor, government-backed sponsors. But not to get too into the weeds here with that, but high level, I would say is conventional products, the main differentiation on that is they will allow a loan amount up to $548,250 in most markets. There is some markets around the country where that’s a higher number. So it’s just around San Francisco, Los Angeles, there’s going to be higher loan limits in certain counties in higher priced areas. But that’s one of the main pieces with them. And a conventional loan above 80% loan-to-value, PMI is required. And that mortgage insurance is required to deliver the loan to Fannie and Freddie. So that’s why it’s so important that you have this mortgage insurance, lenders require it, and that can be costly, right? That can be very costly. FHA and VA — let’s just kind of pull the two apart here — FHA, the Federal Housing Administration loan, is designed for a little bit more flexible credit. Although conventional loans can get pretty low on credit score too, FHA tends to be better if you have lower credit scores because it will allow lower interest rates, for the most part. FHA loans, though, typically don’t have a loan amount max as high as conventional. So for example, if a market’s $548,250 for conventional, it might only be like $325,000 for FHA. So I usually utilize FHA as a last resort, only when it’s the best loan for the client. And then VA of course is for veterans. And the VA loans are great. They allow 100% financing with no PMI. The only downside with VA is there’s a funding fee that’s rather expensive. So I’ve actually had a few veteran clients that we’ve actually gone conventional because it’s cheaper overall. But I could talk a long time on this subject. But hopefully that clarifies the main points.

Tim Ulbrich: Great overview. And to our listeners that want to learn more on each of those, you can check out Episode 169, Tony and I talked through helpful tips for getting a mortgage, going through different loan products, talked about the pharmacist home loan. And tony, we’re going to segue here and talk about that for a moment as I think your discussion on PMI is a good lead-in. And so as we think about the pharmacist home loan, you know, Tony, common barriers to pharmacists being able to purchase a home that I’ve seen is student loan debt, which of course can impact debt-to-income ratio, as well as their ability to save for a down payment. You know, they’re coming out of school, looking to buy a home, six figures or more of debt, and I think that’s where the pharmacist home loan can have its values. Tell us more about the pharmacist home loan option that IBERIABANK/First Horizon has, including minimum down payment, terms, requirements to qualify, PMI considerations and so on.

Tony Umholtz: Sure. The product we offer to pharmacists, it allows very little down payment and there’s no PMI. So it’s probably the key point to it. If you’re a first-time home buyer, you can actually put 3% down and have no mortgage insurance. And if you’ve owned before, it’s 5% down again, with no mortgage insurance. The minimum credit score is 700. And the one piece to this — and again, I don’t — I always try to avoid interest rates because they’re volatile and the market can move, bond market can move, but I have found over the last 18 months that I can offer better rates on this product than if I had a non-pharmacist customer come and put 20% down. I mean, it’s very strong interest rates. So it’s kind of — that’s been the few lead pieces that I’ve noticed. It’s just very strong 30-year fixed loan rates. And that no PMI is just huge. I mean, in some cases if you’re buying a $500,000 home and you’re putting 3% down, you’re talking about a $400 a month savings just for the PMI. So it’s a pretty substantial number. In regards to student loans, it has a — it doesn’t completely waive them. And I find most of my clients that I work with are under an income-based repayment plan anyway. And that’s what we’ll use in calculating a debt-to-income ratio. But in the case where there isn’t a payment, it uses a factor that’s lower than a traditional conventional loan or an FHA loan. So it enables more buying power.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. And we covered the pharmacist home loan in a fair amount of detail, Episode 139, Ins and Outs of the Pharmacist Home Loan. Also, if you go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, click at the top “Buy or Refi a Home,” you’ll see more information there to the IBERIABANK/First Horizon product as well as to the real estate concierge, Nate Hedrick, for those that are looking for an agent as well. And we’re excited about the partnership that we have with IBERIABANK/First Horizon because it’s nationwide. And we’ve got a nationwide community here in the YFP community. I have had the chance to work with Tony now for the better part of a year, love what he’s doing, his passion to educate and help folks on this decision and understand how it fits in with the rest of the financial plan. So that’s No. 1, not fully understanding in advance the common loan types and considerations and differences for each. No. 2 here, Tony, is credit blunders. And I’m thinking of those that perhaps may overestimate their credit score or perhaps not have a good understanding of how credit scores impact rates, maybe waiting too long to resolve credit issues and so on. What are some of the common mistakes and blunders that you see related to credit?

Tony Umholtz: The credit and the overestimate — you mentioned overestimating credit. I see that a lot. And you know, I think a couple things I’ll just touch on here with credit. One of the things as a lender, I try not to run credit unless we absolutely have to, right? There’s a lot of clients that’ll call and just want some high level information, but credit is so important because it’s such a critical part of the product. If you have a minimum credit score of 700 and you’re under that, it’s good to know why. And some lenders can — and we offer this service as well — we can give you ideas on how to improve it. We actually have score models that tell us what your score could go to by doing certain activities. But anyway, one of the big blunders I see is just totally following like a third-party monitoring service. And I don’t want to name too many names because there’s a lot of them out there, but traditionally, these third party services are going to overinflate your credit score more than what we would see. You know, like us as a — so for example, a creditor can see a score that is maybe 30 points on average lower than what you might see on one of these services. And I’m even — I subscribe to a service. I will say I do. But it gives me good trends as to what I’m doing, but it’s not what a creditor would see. So in my lifetime of lending, the highest credit score I’ve ever seen was 820, and it was an 80-year-old gentleman who had perfect credit his whole life. So it’s one of those things where, you know, a customer will say, “Hey, my score is 850!” Well, that’s what the monitoring service says, but it’s really not going to be that way when we see it. So that’s one thing, a blunder that I see. The other is a misconception on an inquiry as well. A lot of inquiries is not good. But a couple inquiries at one time for a loan is not going to have an effect on you. There’s a window of time where you can do this. That’s another piece. And then the other really important one — and I can’t stress this one enough — is the no interest for a year type cards and promotions that are out there. And it’s very tempting to go to Best Buy and they’ll offer a $5,000 credit limit for $5,000 worth of stereo equipment and maybe a CD or whatever it might be. And you don’t have to pay interest for two years, which is great, right? It sounds great. But what they do, they report that to the credit bureaus, to Experian, Equifax, and Transunion, as a 100% maxed out credit card. And I’ll confess as a young man, I was in my early 20s, I bought furniture for one of — my first house with a store called Rooms To Go, and I did this. And that’s how I learned. And of course, I’ve seen many clients do this since that time. But it actually happened to me personally. I said, “Wait a minute, why did my credit score go from 750 to 660?” And that was one of the things that happened. I did this credit, you know, it was a maxed-out credit card. That’s how it’s reported to the bureaus. So that’s another big blunder, Tim, that I’ve seen.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and credit — great summary, Tony, great insights there as well. Credit, credit optimization, credit security, such an important part of the financial plan. Obviously we’re talking about here related to securing a mortgage, but generally just an important piece to consider. Tim Baker and I talked about this on Episode 162, Credit 101, talking about what is a credit score, breaking that down, six factors that can impact scores. So if you want more information and better understanding your credit, we’ll link to that episode in the show notes. So that’s No. 2 here, credit blunders. No. 3 is not shopping around. And I know, Tony, that rates, especially in a market where I feel access to information has become easier to find, if you will, that rates may be not necessarily what I’m referring to as much here, although that of course is a consideration. And I think in some cases, if you’ve got good communication with a lender and rates are changing that they’ll be in communication with you. So I think that relationship certainly is important. But obviously we know not all offerings are created equal. So here, we’re talking about the pharmacist home loan. Folks may or may not be aware of that. And so looking at a few different institutions, understanding the products that are out there, but what else, Tony? What are some things that folks may notice beyond the offering and perhaps beyond the rate that would be different from one bank from another? I’m thinking about things like application fees, document fees, other things like that that folks should be thinking about as they shop around.

Tony Umholtz: I really think the — and it can be very challenging sometimes with the shopping around because there’s different levels of knowledge out there. And some of the companies are just set up as call centers as they funnel internet leads in. You know, so there’s different knowledge bases that you’re going to speak to sometimes. So I find that that sometimes adds some confusion. But I think it is very important to find the right product. I think that is very much a critical element, so finding the lender that has the right product for you is important. And I never want to — I’m very sensitive to relationships. So I have people call me and say, “Hey, I have used this lender for 10 years and they’ve always been good to me,” and we’re a competitive industry but sometimes if I think something’s better, I’m very quick to tell that person, “This other lender has a better product.” So I think — and I actually have a lot of lenders that love to send me clients that they know we’re better fitted for. The fee part is important because there’s only really one set of fees the lender controls, and that is there’s a lender portion of fees. The rest are third party. So they’re going to be through third parties. It’s going to be the same, really no matter who they use. So that’s one thing I find that confuses a lot of people is consumers will lump in the prepaid expenses, taxes, insurance, title insurance as well, and doc stamps for the state we’re in or the county recording fees. But those are going to be the same costs no matter what. There’s really only one line item of lender fees that are going to be different, that could vary. So that’s one way to look at the lender is just lender fees and interest rate. Really, it’s as simple as that. But the big things I find when you’re looking, when you’re out there — and again, I’m not going to name names of companies — but when you’re looking to buy a home and you have a — there’s a lot of companies that have popped up, especially internet-based companies that are really just feeding off the refinance market. It’s hard to be equipped for purchases because when you go under contract for a purchase, you have a commitment letter date, right? There’s a commitment financing contingency, there’s appraisal contingency, there’s all these contingencies in a contract, and you want to make sure the lender is watching this and can meet these milestones. A lot of lenders that are set up for refinances just aren’t set up for purchases. It’s OK to use one of these lenders if you can wait 90 or 120 days to close your loan for a refinance, but on a purchase, you can’t do that. So service is very important when you’re buying a home. It still can be with refinancing, but you can always just wait longer, you know? It’s one of those things. But I would just say, you really have to be careful with the service aspect when you’re buying because it’s a very competitive housing market right now, and a lot of these sellers have backup offers. I get calls a lot too because people are under contract and something went wrong with their lender, and I have to jump in sometimes. So I see it even as a secondary lender when things go wrong with the original lender. So I would just say the big thing is a comfort level with that person and that organization. The best rate and product is important too but also making sure that you’re in the best fit for you because one other thing I will say is, you know, if you can get a better rate putting 30% down than you could putting 5% but that’s going to use up all of your liquidity and maybe impact other financial planning aspects of your life, well, the 5% is much better, even if the rate’s a little higher. So I think it’s very important to plan, look at your overall plan. That’s why the folks at YFP are so great to work with because they can look at everything and say, “Hey, this is better for you in the long run because of this.” So I hope that’s helpful. I mean, there’s a lot of components to it. There is a lot of things to think about, but I think it’s really finding a comfort level with the group that you want to work with and especially if you’re buying a home.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. So point No. 3 there, not shopping around, I can speak from personal experience working with more of a big box company, obviously having the opportunity to work with you guys, open communication lines, feeling comfortable with the process, getting questions answered, all of that really matters. No. 4 here is looking mistakes — again, we’re talking about here looking beyond the simple Zillow or Redfin search before you get preapproved and know what you can borrow, which is not necessarily, of course, the same thing as what you can afford, right? We talked about this with Nate Hedrick on the podcast a lot, the Real Estate RPh, what you can borrow, what you get approved from the bank, is not necessarily what you can afford. And that connects, Tony, to what you just said about connecting this home buying decision with the rest of the financial plan. So talk to us here briefly about the importance of the preapproval process.

Tony Umholtz: The preapproval process is critical just to know what you can afford both ways, right? To see if that Redfin search popped up a house that you can’t buy. I’ve also seen it the other way around where, you know, with the rates being so low, clients have said, “Hey, I’m paying $2,900 a month for rent and I can buy more house than I thought I could.” So it’s really just critical in the education process. You know, knowledge is so important. And just knowing what you can and can’t do is important. And the preapproval process will allow us to see if there’s any red flags as well. We’ve had lots of clients that we’ve been able to help get their credit scores up a little bit higher, we’ve had lots of clients that both ways have said, “Hey, I don’t want to buy a home this large because I didn’t realize that this is the cost and the taxes are this.” On the other side, I’ve seen it the other way too, like I mentioned. It’s very important to get pre-approved before you start walking into houses. And I will say that the realtors are very proactive right now because of the tight inventory. We get a lot of phone calls from the listing agents, even. And of course, we can’t give much information away, but they’re calling us, “Hey, are these clients approved?” I mean, it’s a different market in a lot of parts of the country right now.

Tim Ulbrich: That makes sense given where we’re at and the climate of the market. So No. 5 is underestimating the cash to close. So what I’m referring to here, Tony, speaking from personal experience in our first home purchase a little over a decade ago is I think many folks when they’re looking, you know, look at the sale price of the home, they might say, “OK, I’m going to be able to negotiate this or this,” which might be overconfidence, especially depending on what’s happening in the market. And they’re probably thinking about the down payment, whatever that would be, 5%, 10%, 15%, 20% down. But they might not be thinking about other costs that they’re going to need to consider having cash to come to the close. So tell us about not numbers, per se, but what are some of those other things that folks need to be thinking about when it comes to cash to close beyond just the down payment?

Tony Umholtz: One of the big pieces too outside of the down payment is your insurance premium. And insurance is due upfront, full year premium upfront, even if you paid cash, you have to pay for your insurance premium upfront if you want your home insured. And I find that — and this is flood insurance as well if you’re in a flood zone, that’s due as well — but the insurance component is something you have to take into consideration. The other piece outside the down payment is your tax allocation. So normally, lenders will take anywhere from 3-4 months of your property taxes for the escrow account. And for example, the reason for 3-4 months is there’s always a two-month cushion that’s collected. But there’s also, you know, let’s say we were to close today, right, on a house, Feb. 5, your payment is not going to be due — your first payment’s not due until April 1. So we have to collect February and March to be on pace to pay it for you, so we’re going to collect four months of taxes at closing to kind of cushion things. And then of course you have closing costs as well. So there’s a prepaid element and then we have the closing costs. So in addition to the down payment, you have those elements as well. The other thing to keep in mind too that is some confusion that I see a lot with first-time home buyers especially is when you give a deposit on the home, so let’s say when you give your realtor, your realtor goes to help you with the contract, you have to put $5,000 in escrow or deposit — terminology is about the same but different parts of the country call it something differently. That $5,000 gets credited back to you at closing. OK? So it’s a contribution to the overall transaction. It’s not something that you lose or gets lost in any way. It comes back to you. So if your cash to close let’s just say was $10,000, and you’ve already given $5,000, well, you only are going to bring $5,000 to the closing. So that’s another piece just to — questions that come up.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. And I think the point here I want to make, especially for folks that are on the home buying process for the first time is making sure you’re appropriately considering what might be the cash needed, down payment, closing costs, you mentioned the insurance, the taxes, and some other things as well. So making sure to plan for that in advance and of course thinking about how that impacts other parts of the financial plan. So we’re halfway through our list of 10 common mortgage mistakes to avoid. We’re going to rapid fire these last five. No. 6 here is delayed communications with the lender, title company and agents. Lots of folks involved, Tony, in this process, lots of moving pieces and parts, and I suspect this is the time to overcommunicate and set communication expectations with the team in advance. So talk to us about from your perspective, you know, what you’re expecting of your — obviously your team but also in terms of folks that are working with your team when it comes to communication.

Tony Umholtz: I mean, communication is critical. And that’s what makes the transactions — makes or breaks them in a lot of ways, the communication. So we really try to communicate — overcommunicate with the client. The title companies can be tricky because some of them are, you know, larger, big box, and they’ll just send blanket emails out and it’s hard to get in touch with someone individually. But I think it’s — you know, one of the things that I think is critical is that we know who the realtor is, and we know who the title company is. And then we know the individual in contact. And it usually goes very smoothly if that’s the case. So just having everyone on board. Normally the realtors are very important for us to know because we have to coordinate, we have to give the appraiser their information typically, just to show the house. But yeah, the title company portion is very important, especially as we get closer to closing because the bank or lender’s closing department is going to communicate with them and balance the figures for closing.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. Yeah. I think with lots of parties involved, communication — always two-way, but making sure that you’re being proactive in that and of course if there’s questions that are outstanding, making sure you’re reaching out and vice versa to stay on time and on track with closing. I’m going to take No. 7, 8 and 9 because they hit home for me personally. And then we’re going to bring back Tony here to talk about No. 10 related to mortgage discount points. No. 7 is making a home buying decision before you are ready just because “rates are good” or because I’m renting and “throwing money down the drain.” Now we’ve talked about this extensively on Episode 113, Is Your Home an Asset or a Liability? We’ve talked about not only the pressures to buy a home but also the costs of home ownership and comparing renting versus buying. And so I would encourage folks, as we say on the show over and over and over again, to avoid the trap of making any financial decision in a silo. So here, if you’re talking with somebody and rates are good or you see commercials about rates or that’s the center of the conversation or somebody says, “Hey, why are you renting? You’re just throwing money down the drain,” now, you may conclude that it is the right time to buy. But the point I’m making here is to take a step back, what else do we have going on in the financial plan, working with hopefully a financial planner to help you evaluate that decision, look at all pieces of the puzzle, and then proceed with the home buying decision and the budget to buy a home if it makes sense in the context of your plan.

And that really is No. 8 in terms of these mistakes is not thoroughly evaluating how home buying fits in with other financial goals. And so I think as we talk about extensively, you know, if you’re looking at six figures of student loan debt, you’re looking at investing goals, you’ve obviously got other competing priorities for your finances, home buying just being one of those, how does it fit in? And of course, YFP Planning, our fee-only comprehensive financial planning team can help that. You can schedule a free discovery call, learn more, at YFPPlanning.com.

No. 9 mistake here is not thinking about available cash post-close. So we talked about how much money you’re going to need to be able to come to closing. But what about things like a rainy day fund to make sure that if something goes wrong in the home? What about things like furnishing the home? What about things like yard equipment? And so thinking about not only the cash that you’re going to need to bring to closing but also do you have some reserves? Do you have some cushion? What will that look like month-to-month as well as some funds that you have in reserves to be able to handle some of those expenses that will inevitably come after you move in?

And Tony here, No. 10 in our list of 10 common mortgage mistakes I think is misunderstanding or evaluating mortgage discount points, especially as folks are comparing rates among institutions or even within a lender. So talk to us exactly about what are discount points? And ultimately, how folks and tips for folks as they’re evaluating discount points as an option.

Tony Umholtz: I would recommend that you always ask for a no-point quote initially because, you know, some lenders will put that into their pricing. It’s funny, even the Freddie Mac that are posted in the Wall Street Journal, they typically have .6% points in the quote. So you know, I always say that if I put that in there, the rate would be even lower. But that’s really the important element is discount points — let me explain what those are. They are actually — it’s defined as prepaid interest. So you’re basically buying down the interest rate and for a finance person, it’s like you’re buying down the bond rate over time by paying the points at a premium. It sometimes can be a good investment. But most of the time, I don’t recommend it. And the way that you can tell if it’s a good investment is traditionally, on a 30-year fixed, 1 point will typically buy down a .25% in rate, typically. Sometimes ⅜ of a point. Well, over — let’s say it’s .25%. Over four years, you basically pay off the point you paid and then you’re kind of in the money, so as long as you own the home more than four years, you’re in the money. And then a lot of times, depending on your tax bracket and everything, you can write off that point in the year that you pay it. So if it was 2021 and you paid 1% on a $300,000 home let’s say, that would be $3,000. But you know, the spread in rate is important in determining if paying points makes sense. But I find that it typically is not the best way to go unless there’s a big spread. Like I had a — there was a time earlier in the year, especially on jumbo mortgages, larger loans that are above the conventional limit, where we were getting a half point for 1% fee. Well, that made sense all day because you had a two-year payback period on a 30-year fixed. Then you were in the money for a remaining 28 years if you stayed there. So for long-term people who are going to be in the home or own the home long-term, it can make sense sometimes. But to compare lenders, you really just want to ask, like if one lender offers you 2 — this is just throwing out numbers — 2.75% with 1 point and the other one offers you 3% with no points, you can ask the 3%, “Hey, if I was charged 1 point, what could I get? What could my rate be?” And if they came back and said, “It’s 2.625%,” well the offer from the higher rate person is actually better. So that would be one way to compare. But that’s a quick summary of points.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, great discussion there of points. I know that comes up a lot, and I think what we’re trying to get to, Tony, is an apples-to-apples comparison the best that we can to evaluate it. And I think you bring up another good point in that discussion, which is the longevity that you may be in the home. And I know that’s an important consideration, one that folks may not be able to predict in advance but to try to objectively evaluate that the best you can because that’s going to impact when you think about rates of the loan, you think about things like points, when you think about down payments and other issues and having to be able to expense a move in the future and closing costs and selling the home, you know, if that runway’s going to be long versus that’s going to be potentially short, that could have a significant impact on many parts of the home buying process. So there you have it, 10 common mortgage mistakes home buyers make and steps that you can take to avoid these mistakes. And to learn more about considerations when getting a home loan and to get more information about the pharmacist home loan offered by Tony and his team at IBERIABANK/First Horizon make sure to check out the post on the YFP site titled, “Five Steps to Getting a Home Loan.” And you can get there by visiting YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan or if you just go to the main page, YourFinancialPharmacist.com, top you’ll see “Buy or Refi a Home,” and that will get you there as well. So Tony, appreciate your expertise as always and appreciate you taking time to come on the show today to talk about this important topic.

Tony Umholtz: Tim, thanks for having me. Really enjoyed it. I always do, and you know, appreciate being a partner with you.

Tim Ulbrich: Thank you very much. And as always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please do us a favor and leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. That will help other pharmacy professionals find this show. Appreciate you taking the time to join us. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 190: 7 Ways to Reduce Your Monthly Housing Costs

Posted on February 11, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

7 Ways to Reduce Your Monthly Housing Costs

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Nate Hedrick, the Real Estate RPh, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss 7 ways to reduce your monthly housing costs.

About Today’s Guest

Summary

It’s no secret that housing costs, whether that be your mortgage or rent payment, make up a large chunk of many people’s budgets. For some people, housing can be 30% or more of their income. Nate Hedrick, The Real Estate RPh joins Tim Ulbrich on this episode to share 7 ways to reduce your housing costs. Reducing your housing costs allows you to have more disposable income to fund your other financial goals. It’s a win-win, right?

The first is downsizing your home. Many people think downsizing means moving into a tiny home or to an apartment that’s drastically smaller than where they currently live. If that’s what you want to do, that’s great, however downsizing can simply mean moving into a house that’s a bit smaller to help reduce the costs of taxes, insurance, utilities, and maintenance. The second way to reduce your monthly housing costs is to house hack. While house hacking may not be for everyone, this is a great stepping stone into real estate investing and can allow you to, hopefully, live for free. The third strategy is to get a roommate. Like househacking, this may not be an option for everyone, but having a sibling, friend, or even stranger live with you can allow you to significantly reduce your housing costs.

The fourth is geo-arbitrage, a concept that’s been picking up some steam over the years especially among those in the FIRE community. Essentially, in order to save money on housing costs, healthcare, or the general cost of living (think gas, food, taxes, transportation, etc) and get more for your dollar, you pick up and relocate to a new place. We know that the cost of living can vary greatly between cities but that your income may not increase or decrease accordingly, so this can be a powerful way to save money if it’s an option for you. The fifth strategy is to use Airbnb to increase your income. Although COVID-19 may make it difficult to put this in action at the moment, this is one to definitely consider when state’s start to re-open more in the future. Renting out your home, in-law suite, or room in your home can bring in extra cash and help you pay down your mortgage. The sixth way to reduce housing costs is to re-evaluate your homeowner’s insurance policy. Just like you’d shop around for car or disability insurance, you can do the same with homeowner’s insurance. You can also check in with your current company to see if there are any discounts available for installing certain security measures or for paying yearly vs monthly. The last strategy is to refinance your mortgage. With historically low interest rates, you may be able to significantly reduce your monthly mortgage payment. However, it’s important to keep in mind the total cost of the loan and any additional fees and costs you may incur when refinancing.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Nate, excited to have you back on the mic. How you been?

Nate Hedrick: Good, Tim. Thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s been I think a hot second since you were last on the show, Episode 178, where we talked about 5 lessons learned during your most recent investment property purchase. But I don’t want to assume that everyone listening knows who you are and what the Real Estate RPh is all about. So give us a brief background of you, your role in pharmacy, and how and why you started the Real Estate RPh.

Nate Hedrick: Absolutely. So I am a full-time pharmacist. I work with an insurance company here in Cleveland, Ohio. But I also moonlight or side hustle as a real estate agent. So I have my real estate license, have had that for four years now. And I work with local pharmacists and other health care professionals to help them buy and sell property here in Cleveland. And then that expanded a couple years ago into Real Estate RPh, which is a website that I run to educate pharmacists about the real estate process, help them find agents all over the country through our concierge service that we’ve partnered up with YFP for. So we do a lot of interesting stuff. And that’s really what my focus is on this year is really growing that network and being able to help more pharmacists around the country.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, it’s been fun to see that grow and more and more that are reaching out to you that are in that home buying process. So we will link in the show notes, obviously, to your site. We’ll also have some more information about the real estate concierge service for folks that want to learn more. We’ll come back to that throughout the episode. So today we’re talking all about ways — specifically, 7 ways — to reduce monthly housing costs. And I don’t think it’s any secret, I know from personal experience, that housing costs, whether that’s your mortgage or rent payment, make up a large chunk of many people’s budget. Now, check this out. According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, people that fall into the top income quintiles, many pharmacists of course would be included in this, spend around 30-32% of their pre-tax income on housing. 30-32%. That’s a big chunk of your earnings that immediately are being spent on housing each and every month. And when you think about other competing financial priorities, the ones we talk about all the time on the show: student loans, child care, food costs and so — it may feel like there isn’t much money left to put towards other goals. So of course, thinking about strategies for reducing monthly costs I suspect is relevant for many. So Nate, when working with clients looking to buy a home, do you ever give them any insight on how much of their income they should aim to allocate toward those housing costs? And how do you determine that?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, so you have to be a little bit careful as an agent, right? We are not financial advisors. You know, I don’t want to step outside my shoes a bit. But we always — whenever I’m meeting with a new client, I do make sure we talk early on about the importance of budgeting and making sure that they’re the ones setting the budget. I’ve had numerous clients come to me and said, “Hey, Nate, I got pre-approved for $600,000. What do you think about that?” And I said, “That’s great. What is your budget, though?” It’s a totally different question. So I always make sure that I bring that up, make sure that they understand that they need to set their own budget and then it’s my job to help keep them on budget. So if they come to me and say, “My budget is $300,000. I don’t want to spend a penny over that,” it is very easy for them to fall in love with a house that is $350,000. And it’s my job to make sure that they don’t go that direction, right? Especially if they’ve told me upfront, “This is our number. We want to stick to it.” I’ve seen it time and time again where if you start looking outside of your price range, all of a sudden, your price range goes up. So what I take my own role as is, “Look, I’m not going to tell you how to spend your money, but I’m going to help you stay on goal if that’s what you want me to do.”

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I can’t overemphasize enough, you know, what you’re pre-approved for and what the budget is likely are two different things. And so really taking some time up front, you know, what are you looking for? How does that fit in with the rest of your financial goals? Obviously biased on our end — working with a financial planner to help do that. And then you go through the home buying process and make sure that that home buying purchase fits in with everything else that you want to do. Nate, when you heard that BLS statistic, you know, 30-32%, of course we recognize we’ve got listeners all over the country. Cost of living here in the great state of Ohio is very different than cost of living up in the Northeast or out West. So we recognize that. But generally speaking, is that statistic, 30-32% of pre-tax income on housing, is that pretty common what you see among pharmacist clients?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, if not a bit higher, right? I think that’s probably about right, but it tends to be that or more, I would say.

Tim Ulbrich: OK, makes sense. And of course, we have friends, family that are spending much more than 30% of their income on housing, maybe even spending 50% or more. And again, sometimes that’s subject to cost of living in certain parts of the country. So Nate, why is spending this much money on housing something that folks should — you know, I don’t know if avoid is necessarily the right word. Obviously for everyone it’s a personal decision. But that they should at least be aware of the impact that this might have on other parts of their financial plan.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, absolutely. I think sometimes it’s easy to look at it and say, “Well, I can handle that payment today. It won’t be a problem. But what does that look like in five years? In 10 years? You know, are you going to be working as much? Are both of you going to be working if you have a spouse? There are a lot of things that you want to plan for the future, and getting yourself into the highest possible payment right up front kind of cripples some of the opportunities you have later. So you could easily become house poor, you could — honestly, I’ve seen pharmacists, I’ve talked to pharmacists, who feel like they’re living paycheck to paycheck because that housing cost is so darn much that they have to commit such a large portion of their income to basically staying on track. Up front, if you can make that decision to pare that back a bit, it makes your options that much better down the road.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, makes sense. And I think we have a bias and a tendency — I know I do — to tend to look at our future state through the lens of today, right? It’s just natural. So of course things could change, you know, incomes could go up, but also incomes could go down. So do you have margin? You know, what about financial emergencies and being ready for those things, things that we may not be able to anticipate happening at this point in time? So it’s obvious that reducing monthly housing costs, if we’re talking about 30% or more of pre-tax income, can have a huge benefit on your financial plan. We know that when it comes to the financial plan, obviously income and disposable income is what we need to be able to allocate towards our goals. So whether that’s short- or long-term goals. So let’s dig into seven ways that people can reduce their housing costs. No. 1, Nate, we’re going to talk about is downsizing. And I think when people hear that word, they immediately think of living in a tiny home, moving to an apartment that’s drastically smaller than where they currently live. And if that’s what people want to do, great. You know, we’ve talked with several pharmacists that have had very creative housing situations. I think of Rena Crawford that we had on this show talking about her housing situation out in San Diego and her creativity with renovating a van while she was completing residency. And certainly those are exceptions probably to the norm. But what do we mean here when we talk about downsizing? And why can this be such an impactful way to reduce housing costs?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I mean, anytime you’re talking about a larger home, more expensive home, it’s not just the house itself, right? You’re talking about more utilities. If you have more square footage, you’ve got more to heat, more electricity, all those different things go into it, more maintenance costs. If you’ve got a larger footprint of house, there’s more stuff that can break. So all of those things start to stack up. It’s not just a bigger house is it. So that’s kind of important. And what I find is that it’s not always about necessarily downsizing but making sure that when you start, you’re not upsizing, right? So downsizing can be a good move if you’re already in a house where you’re like man, this is really crippling our budget. We need to make a decision. But what I see most often is that people who take this ahead of time, before they ever buy their first house and think about OK, I don’t want to have to downsize later, what can I start with now and then work my way up down the future?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think your point is a good one, being proactive — and not even just focusing on necessarily things like the square foot and the mortgage, of course, and those things but other things. You know, you mentioned taxes, you mentioned maintenance, you mentioned utilities. What about the lawn care? And really considering everything that’s involved — could be association fees and other things. How do clients that you work with — you know, I know one of the things folks may not necessarily be as obvious is OK, what is it going to cost me all-in per month? You know, of course you’ve got the mortgage and insurance and they’re thinking about those things. But they may not necessarily be thinking as much about utilities and other things. Of course, taxes are readily available information. I mean, is this information that’s typically forthcoming from the seller? Do people have to prod to try to get some utility payments and things like that to be able to best estimate what this is going to be for their budget?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I usually recommend to my clients to ask. I’ve seen some sellers — and I’ve done this once — where we actually posted, not our bills exactly, but I had the seller pull their previous utility bills and say, “Look, let’s just put this number out there. That way a potential home buyer can feel good about it, that it’s going to be $300 a month for all this,” or what have you. That’s definitely something that we’re seeing people ask for, and it’s a great way to get a true estimate of what that particular property might be costing someone.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And I think it’s worth mentioning here, of course when we talk about real estate transactions, you know, there’s costs that are involved. So making sure you’re factoring that in. If you’re going to pick up and move, how great — this is a conversation my wife and I have all this — you know, what’s the true net difference, right? So you might look at, hey, we’re going to sell for $350,000 and we’re going to buy for $250,000. But when you really consider the transaction costs, obviously the fees involved, the moving expenses, really trying to evaluate this and understand what the net difference is. So that’s No. 1, looking at downsizing. No. 2 is house hacking, I think a topic that you and I love, love talking about, one that we have both said on this show several times, “Man, if I could do it all over again, I would have house hacked.” So something we talked about Episode 130, I had Craig Curelop on from Bigger Pockets, episode talking about house hacking your way to financial freedom. And that episode I thought was a great overview in his book of the house hacking process. And it’s a real estate investing strategy that we love but also can serve your primary home needs. So Nate, break it down for us. For those that aren’t aware or perhaps a refresher, what exactly is house hacking? And how can it be a powerful way to reduce housing costs?

Nate Hedrick: So house hacking at its core is the idea that you are buying a property in some way, shape, or form that you are going to live in part of it and you are going to have a renter live in another part. And so traditionally with a house hack, you’re looking at like a duplex, a triplex, or a quad, which you can buy as a — the bank looks at it like a single family home. But you can live in one unit and then you can rent out the others. And ideally, with a proper house hack, you’re having that renter basically pay for your mortgage or pay for your mortgage and your taxes in an ideal world. But the idea is that if you can live in part of the house, rent out the other part, you’re going to have far less housing expenses because you’ve got someone else paying for it for you.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I think it’s certainly can look very different for the reasons you mentioned. And one of the things I like about Craig’s book on house hacking, he gives a lot of different examples from his personal situation, others that did it, that I think will give folks a variety of ideas about what house hacking may look like for them and how it may or may not fit into their home buying goals. So Nate, have you worked with clients that have done a house hack? And if so, what was their motivation?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, actually, I’ve got one right now that I’m working with locally here in Cleveland that’s looking to house hack, which is fun. We’ve been doing — running numbers on houses recently and looking for opportunities. And right now, this pharmacist is actually living in a house with a couple of roommates, wants to buy his own place but doesn’t want the housing prices or the housing expenses to jump dramatically, right? If you go from living in a $400 a month room or whatever the cost is there to this big housing payment, it might be a shock to your budget. But if he can transition to only a couple hundred dollars because the house hack is paying for some of that cost, you can get your own place, start building equity, all the advantages of owning a home without this huge uptick in expenses. So I’ve been working with him to try to find that opportunity. And then we’ve got a ton of concierge clients throughout the country that have done this. I think we’ve talked with a couple here and mentioned a couple in the past that have primarily been searching for a house hack when they’re looking for their first house.

Tim Ulbrich: Love it. And speaking of roommates, let’s talk about roommates. No. 3 here on our list of seven ways to reduce your housing costs, No. 3 is get a roommate. Nate, I thought this wasn’t college anymore. So similar to house hacking, getting a roommate obviously could be a way to reduce housing costs. Talk to us about the role that this can play.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, especially again, I think people overlook this because like you said, once you buy a house, like I can’t — I can’t go backward, I can’t have a roommate now. But it’s a great way — if you’re in a personal situation where it makes sense, it’s a great way to reduce your expenses for both people. And you can take this as simply as, you know, I’m going to have my brother move back and he’s going to pay me a little bit of rent, or is as severe as putting an ad on Craigslist and having a stranger come live with you. You know, we’ve actually gotten a chance to talk to a couple of individuals here that are experts in this, I would argue. Ryan Shaw on Episode 173 knows all about how to deal with roommates and keeping them sane. And then Bryce Platt, one of our concierge clients that actually went out and bought — Episode 160 for those that are looking for it. He actually went out and bought a condo basically that had — was set up to have three other roommates with him. And so that’s part of that process. So it’s not uncommon anymore, and it’s a great way to reduce your overall expenses.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think it’s worth, you know, the reminder or maybe the obvious statement of your first housing situation will likely not be your forever situation, right? So whether it’s a roommate directly living with you or in a situation like Bryce, that may work for awhile and then you decide you may move on. But now you’ve got an investment property that perhaps you can hold onto as well. So that’s No. 3, get a roommate. No. 4, perhaps the most interesting, my favorite on the list, but also likely very unpopular to some folks that love where they live. This is geoarbitrage. And Scott Rieckens, author of “Playing with FIRE,” mentioned this on the podcast last week, Episode 188. And I think it’s such an interesting way to reduce your housing costs. And I think this actually stems back to some of Tim Ferriss’ work talking about geoarbitrage. So Nate, what is geoarbitrage? And how can it help someone’s budget?

Nate Hedrick: So it’s a concept that basically you are — and we’re seeing a lot of this grow in the FIRE community, like you mentioned Scott but many others in the FIRE community are embracing this idea that in order to save money on housing costs or the cost of living based on a certain area, you basically you pick up and move to a new place. And we’re seeing this really taking off, especially with the changes in how people are working during the pandemic and hopefully after the pandemic is over. Work from home is just totally different than it’s ever been before. And you can basically do your job from anywhere now. If Option 1 is to live in downtown New York in a tiny apartment for a huge, huge cost, but Option 2 is to do that exact same job in Cleveland, Ohio, here, your costs go down dramatically. And so a lot of people are looking at this like, are there other areas that I can live in that I can either find a better job or keep my same job and work remotely that are going to improve my overall housing costs without dramatically impacting my life?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah and again, I think this is not a forever situation, right? I know I’ve brought this up to various groups when I’ve been speaking before. You know, often you get that look of like, Tim, are you really suggesting that I pick up and move? You know? And it’s not necessarily for everyone, right? Sometimes there’s family situations, other things, where this is not even a possibility for a variety of reasons. But I think sometimes, this is a way to think a little bit more creatively, especially for those that might be in an area where jobs are also saturated. You know, if you could get to a lower cost of living area and perhaps open up some additional job opportunities, this might be something to consider while also accelerating your financial goals. And I think, again, it really depends on one’s personal situation. But I think what makes this so attractive for pharmacists, Nate, you know this, I know this, our community knows this, we do see incomes change slightly in higher cost of living areas but nowhere near what they should proportionally to the expense of those areas, right?

Nate Hedrick: Right. Absolutely.

Tim Ulbrich: So an ambulatory care pharmacist in Cleveland, Ohio, and an ambulatory care pharmacist in San Diego, that salary difference — while there likely is one from my experience in talking with folks — it does not represent the cost of living differences between those two areas.

Nate Hedrick: Definitely.

Tim Ulbrich: And so you know, I think that because of the nature of how that is treated with pharmacy jobs, this concept might also be attractive. And check this out for a minute, Nate. We pulled some data from RentCafe. The average rent for a 700 square foot –703 square feet, to be exact — in Manhattan is around $3,800. But the average rent for a slightly larger place, 883 square feet, in Little Rock, Arkansas — shoutout to our community in Arkansas — is $830.

Nate Hedrick: There you go.

Tim Ulbrich: Of course, Manhattan and Little Rock are not the same thing. Very different cities, right, in terms of what people are looking for and so on. But it just highlights, you know, what does that mean for monthly cash flow, what are your options. And you know, when I see $3,800 a month for 700 square feet, you and I both know what $3,800 a month can buy in Ohio, right?

Nate Hedrick: Seriously. Yeah, it’s crazy.

Tim Ulbrich: It could go a long way. So again, you know, obviously leaving family, friends, your job can be tough. Certainly not for everyone, but I think it’s one thing to consider and for — you mentioned the reasons of mobility now with some jobs having some more remote capabilities. So that’s No. 4, geoarbitrage. No. 5 is Airbnb. Nate, this is one that I think really pushes people to be creative in how they are cutting expenses or bringing in additional income. And we had Hillary Blackburn on Episode 121, where she talked about creating another stream of income as an Airbnb host and specifically talked about how her and her husband rent out their Nashville home for about $600 a night. So talk to us about how folks can use Airbnb or a similar model, of course, we’re just mentioning Airbnb, and use their home to bring in some additional money.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I think it’s gotten a little trickier during COVID having somebody in your house or what have you. But still, the idea there is really solid. If you can use the space that you already have — and maybe this is an extra bedroom or maybe it’s a whole extra in-law suite or a pool house or you name it, right — if you’ve got a way to rent out some of that portion of that property that you already have, and it’s a desirable area especially, you can pull in a lot of extra income to offset some of those housing costs. And again, like you talked about Nashville being $600 a night, if you’re in an area that people want to travel to, especially as things start to open back up, I really think that there’s opportunity there for you to get some serious income for that place.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and again, this is one that may make sense for some, not for others. We’ve got an Airbnb calculator on the site. You can see, you know, roughly what you may be earning as an Airbnb host. That’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/airbnbcalculator. We’ll link to that in the show notes. So that’s No. 5 on our list of seven ways to reduce housing costs. No. 6, Nate, re-evaluate your homeowners insurance policy. I just did this, so this one is top of mind for me. But I think this is something, you know, we haven’t talked a whole lot about on the show but certainly could be a way that folks may be able to shave off money off of their monthly budget, especially if their policies may have creeped over time. And because of escrow and other factors, they may not be aware or as closely aware as they could be of that. So talk to us about re-evaluating your homeowners insurance policy.

Nate Hedrick: Home insurance policy, if you have a mortgage, right, it’s really one of the only things that you can change. Your taxes are consistent, right? The county’s going to set those. The mortgage and the lender payment is set by the lender. HOA fees, that’s all fixed costs. But the home insurance policy, kind of the other piece that usually gets wrapped into that, is somewhat flexible. And it’s not — it’s not as common to mess with the home insurance policy as someone might shop around for like car insurance or disability insurance or life insurance.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Nate Hedrick: But realize that you can actually make quite a bit of difference with your home insurance policy. And it can change dramatically based on a number of factors. So if you change your deductible, for example. If you go from a $500 deductible on a home insurance claim to $1,000, you might save 25% on your home insurance policy in some cases. The other thing I’ll see a lot with home insurance is that if you are what’s called escrowing your home insurance or your housing insurance, a lot of times that bank will say, OK, well, we’re going to pay — and escrowing, just briefly, is that you actually pay the bank, you pay the mortgage lender to handle paying your insurance company for you. So usually you’re giving them money every single month as part of your normal housing payment. They’re taking a portion of that, setting it aside in an untouchable account called an escrow account, and then from that account, they basically pay your insurance company. But what I’ve found is that if you have that money in escrow, you don’t get a lot of flexibility with how that payment works. And if you can pull that out — and some lenders will allow you to do this free, some may charge you a small amount — but if you can pull that out, you can get even more creative with how you pay it. I’ve noticed that if you pay your home insurance premium monthly versus yearly, you can get a huge discount by paying it all up front. And so if you know you’re going to be there and you have the funds to do so, you can actually pay it Day 1 of the year and get a whole year’s worth of that payment taken care of at a much lower rate. So there are more flexibility here than I think people really realize, but a lot of it comes down to what are you allowed to do with your lender? And what are you willing to do in terms of that negotiation process?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think too — great stuff there, Nate — I think it’s important to note, as you mentioned, these policies vary, you know, in terms of what they coverage, what the coverage includes, obviously personal belongings, other features of policies, and one thing I notice in this process, which certainly makes sense for those that have gone through this one or more times before, is that it’s easy to get focused on price shopping and not necessarily do an apples-to-apples comparison on coverage. So you know, some of these policies may present themselves as oh, well, you know, we could save you $300 a year or whatever. But when you look at the close details of the policy, you might be changing some of your coverage components. So I found it helpful, if you want to keep coverage the same, essentially as you’re going out and getting quotes, say, “This is my coverage. These are the eight things that are included. Here’s my deductible, here’s what’s covered in the policy. And basically give me a quote for this coverage.” You know? So you can do an apples-to-apples type of comparison.

Nate Hedrick: And watch because some will call things something different, right? They’ll have this special feature with Company A versus Company B and it’s literally just the same thing but with a different name. So watch out for that. The other thing I wanted to mention too is that some of them will offer discounts based on certain parameters of your home. So if you live in a disaster-prone area, ask them about what you can do to your homeowners insurance policy by doing some disaster-proofing. Maybe it’s adding storm shutters or maybe it’s actually a security discount. I’ve seen where if you put in electronic locks or deadbolts, just simple deadbolts versus a regular door lock, they will give you a discount on your overall insurance policy. So there are a number of things you should ask about too, like is there any way for me to get a discount on this? What can I do to improve this?

Tim Ulbrich: Yes. Always ask for a discount, right? Yeah, and as some of you are looking to shop around, you know, certainly many ways that you can go about this. Policy Genius is somebody we’ve talked about before, allowing you to compare life and disability insurance quotes, now also has a platform to compare homeowners insurance quotes. Also, renters insurance as well. If you go to PolicyGenius.com/YourFinancialPharmacist, you can learn more. So that’s No. 6 on our list of seven ways to reduce your monthly housing costs. No. 7 is refinance your mortgage. Again, something that’s near and dear to me. We went through this process last summer. We’ve talked about how low rates have been recently for purchasing a home, for refinancing your mortgage over the last year. Nate, talk to us about what mortgage refinancing is and how this can ultimately lower monthly housing costs.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, so think about refinancing as basically resetting or getting a new loan. Effectively, what you are doing is you are clearing out your old loan, someone is paying that old loan off, and you’re establishing a brand new loan. So it’s similar to — we’ve talked about student loan refinancing. It’s the same idea, right? We’re paying off what you currently have with Lender A, and we’re moving that to Lender B at a new rate or at a lower monthly payment. And so the goal here would be obviously to lower the interest rate and then hopefully as a result, your overall payments are going to go down. So you’re going to eliminate your — hopefully maybe eliminate PMI if you have that in place today. You can, again, drop your interest rate from maybe a variable to a fixed rate that is much lower. You could lower the term over which you’re paying that loan. So you could go from a 20-year rate to a 15 or a 30-year to a 15. And now your overall expenses for the longevity of that house are going to go down. So there are a number of ways that you can use refinancing to cut your costs. But if you’re looking to lower your monthly housing payment, a lot of times it comes down to finding an interest rate that is lower than what you have today and finding a term that makes sense for your financial plan and is less than what you’re paying already.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think it’s, although obvious, worth reiterating one of the traps that I see folks often falling into is yes, you know, you can lower the monthly payment, but if you’re extending out the term, keep in mind the total cost of the loan, right?

Nate Hedrick: Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: So trying to make this as apples-to-apples as you can. If you’re already five years into a 30-year term, and you refinance out to a 30-year, obviously you’re tacking on five more years. So yeah, monthly payment might go down, likely will if interest rates are lower, but what does that mean in terms of the total amount paid over the life of the loan? And keeping that in mind as you’re evaluating various options.

Nate Hedrick: And don’t forget, you’ve got closing costs as well in there, right? So you’ve got to make sure that the actual process of buying that loan, you’re getting a new loan but there’s going to be closing costs associated with that to factor in as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Great stuff, Nate. Seven ways to reduce your housing costs, certainly a topic for the reasons we mentioned at the beginning I think folks are interested in. This won’t be the last time that we hear from you and so if you’re listening and you’re looking to buy your first home or you’re looking to move and you want to work with an agent, you don’t currently have one, as Nate alluded to, we’ve got the concierge service working with Nate. It’s free to our community to work with Nate, who will help get you connected with a realtor in your area. And you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, click on “Buy or Refi a Home” at the top, and once you do that, you’ll see an option to find an agent and that will get you connected up with Nate. Also, if you’re looking for a loan, looking to refi your mortgage, want some additional information, again, YourFinancialPharmacist.com, and then you can click on “Buy or Refi a Home” and get some additional information. So Nate, as always, appreciate your time and expertise and thanks for your contribution on the show.

Nate Hedrick: Thanks for having me.

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YFP 189: Options for Investing When You’re Maxing Out Your Retirement Accounts

Posted on February 4, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Options for Investing When You’re Maxing Out Your Retirement Accounts

On this episode sponsored by LendKey, Tim Baker, Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning at Your Financial Pharmacist, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about strategies for investing when you have maxed out your traditional retirement accounts.

Summary

Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich dive into what traditional retirement accounts are, how contributions have or have not changed, the priority of investing, and strategies for investing when you’ve maxed out your traditional retirement accounts.

Tim Baker explains that traditional retirement accounts are generally any employer sponsored accounts, like 401(k), 403(b), 401(a), or TSP accounts. Traditional IRA, Roth IRA, SEP Ira, and Simple IRA accounts are also considered traditional retirement accounts. Many of these accounts have stayed stagnant in regards to contribution limits from 2020 to 2021, like 401(k) and 403(b) accounts which remain at $19,500. However, IRA accounts have increased to $6,000 (aggregate total for traditional and Roth accounts) and HSA contributions have increased to $3,600 (single) and $7,200 (family) with a catch up of $1,000 for those over 55.

Tim suggests a few areas of investing to consider after maxing out traditional retirement accounts. Real estate investing is a viable way to build wealth as it often provides flexibility and cash flow, can generate both short and long term gains, and comes with a lot of tax benefits. Of course there are risks involved with real estate investing and it isn’t as passive as a traditional retirement account, but can be a way to help grow your income and net worth. Starting or investing in a business is another avenue to take after maxing out your retirement accounts. This could be in the form of starting a side hustle or business, inheriting or becoming part of a family business, or investing in a partnership. Lastly, taxable brokerage accounts like Robinhood or Acorns are a good stepping stone to get into a different type of investing, however Tim suggests being intentional with what your setting brokerage accounts up for. He also shares that the more boring you can be with investments, like investing in the S&P 500 or total market index funds, the better it is.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, good to have you back on the mic. What’s new?

Tim Baker: Not much. Just settling into our new office, YFP headquarters in downtown Columbus. So that’s coming together slowly with just furniture and everything else. But yeah, just getting comfortable. How about you?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, exciting times, I think, for YFP. Excited about having you in Columbus. And we’ve got some exciting things planned for the year, and so here today we’re talking about all options for investing after you’ve maxed out traditional retirement accounts. So first of all, if you are somebody listening that hasn’t maxed out your traditional retirement accounts, kudos to you. That’s not an easy thing to do by any means. And remember, as we say many times on the show, investing is only one part of the financial plan. It can’t be looked at in a silo. And for those that are listening that are at the beginning of the investing journey or looking for a refresher, make sure to check out episodes 072-076, our Investing 101 series, as well as Episode 163, Investing Beyond the 401k, 403b, where we discussed IRAs and HSAs in details. And so we’re going to build upon that information here today. So Tim Baker, let’s back up a bit. What are we talking about when we say traditional retirement accounts?

Tim Baker: I guess the thing that pops into my head first and foremost are going to be what’s provided through the employer. That’s typically things like the 401k, the 403b. A lot of us have supplemental retirement plans, things like the 457, some people have 4018s, which are kind of like 401k’s. And then those that we kind of manage ourselves or through the help of a financial planner, so these are things like traditional IRAs, Roth IRAs. Sometimes we’ll see SEP IRAs for those that are self-employed or work for a small business. And simple IRAs also fall under that. So traditionally, those are the ones that we lean on first when we’re kind of looking at ways to defer income for the purposes of saving for retirement.

Tim Ulbrich: So talking about 2021 numbers here, have contribution limits changed from 2020 as folks are considering, alright, new year, what could I be doing to take advantage of these accounts?

Tim Baker: Some of them have changed, but a lot of them actually stayed stagnant. So the most common, the 401k/403b, is the same. So in 2020, you could put $19,500 per year. And that’s of your own money, so doesn’t matter what the match is that your employer gives you. That’s of your own money. And that’s the same for 2021. So you know, if you take your income, you take $19,500 and divide it by your income, that’s the max percentage that you could put in throughout the course of that year. So what I always say to clients that — particularly those that are starting out and maybe they have a little 401k inertia, which is hey, I put 3% and my employer matched 3%, and then they get stuck there. Years later, they’re 5-10 years into their career and they’re still there, that’s typically not going to be enough. So I kind of like the idea of planting the seed of a race to 10% or a race to double digits. And again, that’s kind of just a rule of thumb. Now, in the IRA world, the contribution limits are also the same. So you can put up to $6,000 per year, if you’re thinking about this monthly, $500 a month, into a traditional and/or Roth IRA. So that’s an aggregate number. So if I put $1,000 into my traditional, I can put $5,000 into my Roth IRA. And then probably the other one that I would call out that actually did creep up a bit is the HSA, the Health Savings Account, which is the one that we always talk about that has the triple tax benefit. So if you’re in a high deductible health plan, you basically qualify for that. If you’re an individual, you can put up to $3,600 per year. If you’re a family, $7,200. And then if you’re over 55, there’s a catchup of $1,000 per year as well. So those would probably be the ones that I would call out. So again, if you are in that population of people — which I wouldn’t say it’s always a lot of the clients that we’re working with — but if you are in that population of people that are maxing out the 401k, the IRA, the HSA, then this episode, you know, might be for you where you’re like, OK, well where do I go next?

Tim Ulbrich: And as a reminder, we have a new quick reference guide too. You can quickly take a look at 2021 key retirement numbers, including 401k, 403b, traditional IRA, Roth contribution limits, HSA, education tax credit incentives, required minimum distribution, tax rates. So for those number nerds out there, this is for you. YourFinancialPharmacist.com/2021, you can download that sheet. So Tim, that was one of my questions. I talked with a prospective client this morning who was really in this camp of, you know what, I need to full throttle my investing plan. So I’m at a point of or near at a point of maxing out my 401k, yes, I see another $6,000 I can put in an IRA, doesn’t necessarily have access to an HSA, so is at this point of alright, I’m ready to go with the next steps. So how often do you see this among pharmacists and clients of ours? How hard is it for pharmacists to max them out? And for those that aren’t maxing them out, what’s typically holding them back?

Tim Baker: It’s hard. I think, again, it depends on where you are in kind of your career and where you’re at. If you are a more of a new practitioner and you’re saddled with six figures of debt, to put money into a 401k can be a little bit of a tough go, especially if you’re looking at a $2,000 monthly loan payment. Sometimes, that is very much baked into the strategy that we are employing that the money that goes into these pre-tax accounts lowers AGI and potentially maximizes a forgiveness play, or if you’re looking at a I’ve refinanced, I’m trying to get through them quickly, I am paying $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, sometimes just not a lot of money left over to go into these retirement accounts. Now, there are 10% of pharmacists out there — those are the numbers — that don’t have loans, that kind of the world is their oyster. But that doesn’t always necessarily mean that their money is going into retirement accounts. A lot of pharmacists after going through years and years of training, it’s kind of like, alright, I need to treat myself a little bit. And then that can sometimes be hard to get out of as well. So I think the flip side of that is if you are further along in your career — so the answer, you know, one of the questions is like, is it a big deal that I’m not maxing these out? And I’m like, it depends. If you’re 35 and you’re trying to retire by 50, maybe it is a big deal. If you’re 45 or 50 and you’re trying to retire by 60, maybe it is a big deal. So I think it’s a little bit of, again, looking at the math and how you feel about what your retirement prospects look like and then marrying those two up. But I think if you are in early in your career and you’re maxing these out, it’s just such an easier lift because in the investments, it’s not about timing the market, it’s about time in the market. And if you can get your money working and have that work for 3-4 decades, that money, you know, is just going to go that much further rather if you wait a decade or two out before retirement. So typically, the earlier that you do it, just the easier that number is that you need to be setting aside per month versus waiting. And that’s really what we’re talking about here.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m going to give a disclaimer here, Tim, before I ask my next question that none of what we’re talking about here is obviously individual investment advice. And for the reason you just mentioned there, it does very much depend on one’s personal situation. And it’s becoming the running joke of, “it depends,” on this podcast. But it’s so true and speaks to the value of one-on-one, customized planning. So my question is, you know, let’s say someone is investing in their 401k/403b or employer-sponsored plan, should they focus on maxing that out first? And really, what I’m getting here is what’s the order of priority when it comes to investing and how do we think through determining this order?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so if we kind of can figure out like how to navigate the multiple competing priorities — and obviously, we talked about like student debt, you know, we didn’t really focus on consumer debt, which we have a lot of pharmacists that come to us that are — we recently started working with a pharmacist, and their biggest pain point was about $50,000 in consumer and personal debt. So — and rightfully so. That’s the one that’s probably the most debilitating. If we can work through the other competing priorities like other pieces of debt and the life events that are — whether it’s marriage, buying a house, having kids, going on vacation, caring for elder parents, you know, saving for kids’ educations, and all that stuff, then really, the baseline I think priority that we typically look at — and I would probably say for Step 1, everything else aside, unless you have really terrible credit card debt, at a minimum I think everyone that has a match available to them from their employer, they should capitalize on that. So you know, the old adage is like, take advantage of the free money. So one of the things I’ll humble brag is like YFP, we have a Safe Harbor 401k that if our employees put in 5%, we match 4%. And I want to make sure that everyone’s taking advantage of that because it is free money. So to me, for the most part, everyone should do that. From there, you know, if there is an HSA on the table due to a high-deductible plan, I’d probably say that would probably be the second bucket to look at because it has a lot of versatility in terms of what you can use it for. You can use it for today’s health expenses, tomorrow’s health expenses, and then tomorrow’s like retirement. And with the triple tax benefit, if you can shelter $3,600-$7,200 per year for the next x amount of years, that’s a great benefit. And then from there, what we typically say is look outside of the 401k and look at things like IRAs, whether that’s a Roth IRA or a traditional IRA. The reason for that is typically, a lot of 401k’s are strapped with administrative fees and/or there’s not a lot of investment options. But it’s more tied to the fees. So if you can establish an IRA and keep costs low, I think that’s a big win. We believe that the expense related to investments is going to be one of the bigger drivers in making sure that you have an efficient portfolio. So if we can do that in an IRA — and to go back to that, a lot of 401k’s are not created equal. So you have some great 401k’s and 403b’s that are absolutely efficient and fantastic, and then you have those that are not. And it can be a very, very wide range. We’re talking about, you know, very wide differences between great and not-so-great. Typically, though, once you max out the IRA, what you want to do is go back to the 401k and max that out. So that’s that $19,500. So again, you calculate that by $19,500 divided by your — or your income divided by the $19,500 — and that’s the percentage that you use. And then finally — and this can probably work concurrently in some ways — you know, if you do have access to other retirement plans or SEP IRAs if you have a side business or things like that, that might be another good way to go. And then from there, from a traditional sense, you know, a lot of financial planners will just point you to a brokerage account. So those individuals that have like a Robinhood account or an Acorns account, where they typically do that Step 1 or Step 2, you know, in most instances, it’s better to kind of make sure that you’re doing all these other things first. But it could be a brokerage account, it could be where you get into real estate investing. It could be where you are buying into a business or starting a business, things like that. But that’s kind of a general rule of thumb for most investors on how to tackle the priority.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, Tim. And we will link in the show notes, we have an investing priority document. We’ve talked about it previously on the podcast as well. I can’t help but mention, you brought Robinhood’s name up before — what a week for Robinhood with the whole Gamestop thing going on this week.

Tim Baker: Yeah, I know, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Pretty crazy times. But I think brokerage accounts are getting a lot of attention this week. So we’ve established some of these more traditional accounts, 401k’s or 403b’s, or for those that are working in the federal government, of course the TSP, you mentioned the HSA, the IRAs, going back to the 401k or 403b or equivalent, perhaps a SEP IRA. And then we got to this, you know, what’s next, right? And so of course, often the advice is a brokerage account. But you mentioned several other things that might be in the mix, so perhaps real estate investing, of course, the brokerage account, investing in a business — I know I often hear something like insurance type of investments may come up. So let’s break these down a little bit further. First off, real estate investing. This is something we talked about a lot in 2020 and are excited to dig into this topic even more in 2021 as we’ve heard from many of you that are interested in learning more about real estate investing, whether that’s hearing some of this for the first time, whether that’s investing in building the portfolio that you already have, or perhaps for some of you, hearing and saying, you know what, it’s not a good fit for me. And obviously, we try to bring both sides of this, of sharing stories of folks that have been successful but also appropriately bringing in the risks that can come here as well. So Tim Baker, from your perspective, I know you personally have an investment property, I know this is something that has come up with clients, something we’re talking more and more about with clients, tell us at a high level why real estate investing, from your perspective, can be something at least worth evaluating for folks out that are maxing out these accounts?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think, you know, if we step back and we kind of think about like traditional financial planners, I think, you know, what I typically hear is from a financial planner, like ah, like do you really want to do that? Because do you want to unclog toilets at 2 in the morning? And the answer is no, nobody wants to do that. But I think the sentiment is really rooted in how the advisor gets paid in a lot of ways. So traditional financial planners are really going to get compensated by you, the client, having as much money in your traditional investments, whether that’s an IRA or a brokerage account or a 401k for you to eventually roll over to them for them to manage. I guess the way that we view this is we view real estate as a viable way to build wealth outside of traditional investments that have both kind of near-term benefits of flexibility and cash flow, you know — for example, when you put your money into a 401k, like wave goodbye to that until you’re at least 59.5, for the most part. So you never really can get access to that where if I buy a property, like I could start cash flowing that and make $100, $200, $300 off of that property the next month. There’s that near term, but then you’re also building, and the asset is appreciating as the note that you’re paying down is depreciated. And then there’s a lot of tax benefits from that in terms of being able to make income but then offset that by the deductions. And there’s a lot of things that’s built into the IRS tax code that reward real estate investors. And I think the other thing that’s flexible is that you could keep that, you know, if you talk about a buy-and-hold strategy, you could keep that for the next 30 years just like you keep a 401k. Or you could say 10 years into it, I want to liquidate this and do something else and basically cash out the equity that you have in the property and go do something completely else, which means you could retire on that. So that is maybe another viable strategy. So because of the flexibility, I think because of the tax benefits that you receive, I think it’s a viable way to build wealth. Now, is it as passive as traditional investment? No. And the more passive it is, the less benefit and flexibility that you’ll get. The more actively managed it is, typically the more flexibility and benefit that you get. But then the tradeoff is that you’re actively managing and it takes time and there’s risk. Well, there’s risk in anything. But I think, Tim, really for those reasons, that’s why we like it. And we think it’s a vi — again, a viable way to build wealth. And at the end of the day, the way that we work with clients is what we’re trying to do is help grow and protect income so you could make an argument that we’re growing income in a real estate portfolio by, you know, we’re cash flowing and we’re protecting it because maybe we’re diversifying that away from a typical pharmacist’s salary. We’re growing and protecting the net worth, which means what we have a collateralized asset with a note that’s appreciating over time, while keeping your goals in mind. So again, if that means early retirement, if that means more of a nontraditional path in terms of the career, I think the real estate aspect creates a lot of opportunity to really fulfill financial independence in the eyes of the pharmacist.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m so glad, Tim, you mentioned the story and example that’s often used as the objection early on of like, who wants to be a plumber in the middle of the night? And I remember — for those that have read “Rich Dad Poor Dad,” they will be able to resonate with this — but I remember reading that book for the first time, and it was like unlocking like a piece of information that I hadn’t really been exposed to or learned before. And that obviously is a little bit more philosophical in nature, and then you start talking to people who are doing it and learning more about it, and that’s one of the great things about where we are in 2021, I mean, the resources available out there to learn more and to connect with others that are doing it is really, really incredible. But I think being open to learning, you know, perhaps being willing to see what might be the answer to some of those objections is really important. And we’re excited to bring more pharmacist’s stories to this community in 2021 on real estate investing and also connect other pharmacist investors with one another. And I would point folks back to Episode 167, we brought on David Bright to talk about must-know real estate terminology. I think that’s a great place to start. You mentioned, Tim, many of the upsides and benefits, perhaps appreciation, cash flow, tenants paying down a loan, some tax benefits, obviously we’re just scratching the surface here. And obviously, you also presented some of the challenge. You know, it may not necessarily be passive, the quality of tenants may or may not be what you have in mind. I think too there’s a little bit of, you know, I call it HGTV syndrome, Tim, in terms of like, you know, you watch the flipping show and you’re like, yeah, I got it, right? And so I think we’ve all got to take a step back and really make sure we’re not overconfident. But I think for pharmacists, I’m not sure overconfidence is often the risk here. I think it’s probably being too passive and feeling like it’s out-of-reach and not necessarily being willing to take what they may feel is a very significant risk to get started. So we’ve talked about several of these strategies on the episode thus far, you know, obviously there’s the buy-and-hold strategy. In Episode 129, we brought on Aaron Howell, and he discussed how he built a 29-unit portfolio. We brought Ryan Chaw on Episode 140 about how he built his portfolio of college town investing. Episode 173, we brought him back on to talk about his systems, which was a really neat episode to hear how he actually operationalizes this. Obviously that’s one strategy, buy and hold. We’ve talked about flips before, Nate Hedrick, 178, five lessons learned from his flip. And we’re going to continue the conversation. There’s other areas, of course, in wholesaling and forming partnerships, and we’re excited about what’s ahead here. So real estate investing, Tim, is one aspect. Another that pops to mind that is near and dear to our hearts, obviously, with what we’ve been building at YFP is building a business, investing in a business, and this, of course, is a big topic. But at a high level, you know, what types of things do you see from our clients in terms of whether it’s side hustles that they’re starting, businesses that they’re starting or even perhaps looking at investing in other businesses and how they begin to evaluate whether that’s a path forward for them?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think what I see most frequently is an interest in a closely-held family business, so like a private company that was inherited from maybe a grandfather or things like that and, you know, the question is like, should I keep this? Like what’s the benefit? And you know, they’re getting K1 every year with maybe a little bit of income that they have to basically declare for the IRS. So it could be like more like that. But then I think that there’s also — I mean, we’ve had clients that have taken their side business, their side hustle, and made it a fully fledged, like a regular business. So it could be just plowing money back into the business itself rather than going into the traditional, but I also have had clients interested in investing in like a partnership, whether it’s like a gym or things like that that, you know, that’s a little bit more of a — there’s a lot of risk there. There’s a lot of, again, what’s your role? What do you bring to the business? Is it money? Is it expertise? Is it planning? Is it clients? And kind of really understanding that. Sometimes, it’s just money. So it’s like, hey, I’m going put money in and let you do your thing, and you’re kind of more of a silent investor. So this can come — just like real estate, this can come in a lot of different flavors. So can investing in a business. Again, one of my favorite shows on TV is “Shark Tank.” So I love watching that and how investors speak with business owners and I’m always interested in business just because I just like to talk small business, in particular, and what makes it work and not work. I think we have a lot of clients that are there. I would say for the most part, the predominant thing that I see is a share of an inherited family business or really, taking this hobby or this side hustle and really forming a fully fledged business and how to really handle that. And a lot of the conversation is, you know, do I take money out of the business? Or do I basically reinvest into the business so I make sure it survives and grows?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and we will continue — one of the areas that I’m very passionate about in the profession of pharmacy is I feel like we are missing some creativity around helping students as well as helping pharmacists just imagine what could be different possibilities or ideas. And I think we do that by sharing stories. Not that they necessarily hear a story of a business or side hustle and say, “I’m going to do exactly that,” but to help them think about another area as an example of something that they’re passionate about in terms of solving a problem, creating a solution to that problem. And so we’ll be bringing more in that area. And you know, I agree. We have to know — you know, everyone knows the stats that most small businesses don’t work. Debbie Downer reality. But I think for those that really do their due diligence, understand what their business is all about, is there a market for it, you know, there certainly is some upsides financially in terms of tax, building equity. One of the things that gets me so excited about business is that there may not be a ceiling. Obviously there can also be a floor.

Tim Baker: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: Or falling through a floor that you have to be aware of and also access to some of the retirement options that we’ve already talked about. So we mentioned, again, in the context of investing beyond maxing out traditional accounts, we’ve talked about real estate, we’ve talked about investing in business. What about probably the most common area here, which is taxable and brokerage accounts? What are some things as you’re working with clients that you’re advising them, getting them to think about, whether it’s choosing where they’re going to be investing that money, how they might keep fees low, how they determine where those investments go? Talk to us about the approach in putting money into a taxable or brokerage account.

Tim Baker: The most common that you see are kind of like the Robinhood, Acorns just because they’re UI and they’re use is so clean and easy. And I think for a lot of people that are curious about investing, it’s a first way — you know, kind of the first way to kind of wade in and see, OK, I want to buy this stock, etc. Typically, we talk about the priority of investing, you know, we just started working with a client that had, again, $20,000 in credit card debt but then they have a $10,000 like Robinhood account. And I’m like, those probably don’t make sense. So I think like with brokerage accounts, what I am a big fan of seeing with savings is like what is this account actually for? So a lot of the uses that we see for brokerage accounts are a tax bomb. So those that are taking non-PSLF forgiveness, you know, they need to cover that tax bill. So they’re putting money into a brokerage account because they’re going to need to access it before 59.5 years old, so they can’t put it into their retirement account, and they need to be able to pay off that tax bill when the loan is forgiven. The other one is, again, when we max everything out, that’s a good use for it. So what I typically urge clients to do, though — and it really directs how we’re going to allocate that particular account — is what is it for? So if you’re trying to retire at 50, all of these traditional accounts that we’ve talked about, for the most part — and there’s some exceptions of what you can do, but you can’t really access them without a penalty until you’re 59.5 years old. So that means you have 10 years, 9.5 years where you have to figure something out. And usually, that figure something out is having a robust brokerage account or maybe liquidating part of a real estate portfolio to be able to cover those first 10 years of retirement. I think the big thing here is if you have an IRA, I probably would just have your brokerage account there. And I’m not down on any of these other apps or things like that, but I think for ease of use — and again, not every custodian is equal; there’s going to be different fees and things like that. So you want to be mindful of that. But I know the sexy and the exciting thing to do is to pick individual stocks, whether it’s Tesla or Gamestop or Ford or whatever it is. But I think, you know — and again, not investment advice — but I think the more boring that you are with your investments, typically the better it is because the sexier and the, you know, the investment strategy is, typically the more speculative and the more expensive it is to the investor. So it could be as easy as putting it into an S&P 500 index or a total market index or things like that and call it a day. So there are some advisors that are colleagues of mine, they hear me talk about real estate investing and all of these other things, and I’ll say like, “Hey, this is the reason I believe that a lot of traditional advisors don’t say it is because it’s a function of income.” And sometimes, it’s — and I get a little pushback on that because I’m kind of criticizing my brethren, but it also could just be it’s a ‘Keep It Simple, Stupid’ approach, which I think for finances, it can go a long way. So you know, there is absolutely nothing wrong — I know we’re talking about small businesses and real estate — there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a 401k, an IRA, and a brokerage account and doing a damn good job of building wealth and living an intentional, wealthy life with those tools.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think to that point, Tim, like I would encourage our community, like lean into what you’re comfortable on. You know, I think sometimes there’s some FOMO of like, you know, oh, so-and-so is doing real estate investing or so-and-so owns their own business, and it’s cool and flashy, which you usually don’t see the other side of it all the time. But maybe that is a fit, maybe it’s not. But you know, learn about them, understand them, understand your risk tolerance — and maybe for many folks, it’s really leaning into maxing out traditional accounts, maybe opening some brokerage accounts. But perhaps those other things aren’t a good fit. And I agree with you, I’m seeing more and more pharmacists that seem to be interested in financial independence, early retirement, some combination of those, whether they love their job or maybe not. And I think this is where these tools, the brokerage account specifically, come into play. And last week, we interviewed Scott Rieckens, author of “Playing with FIRE,” Episode 188 for those that are interested in learning more about Financial Independence Retire Early. Tim Baker, great stuff. I think this really highlights for me, again, we’re only talking about here investing, one part of the financial plan. But within the investing bucket, we’ve talked about several different things that of course are traditional accounts and all of the nuances there and then beyond that, lots of decisions to be made, priorities to be balanced, and evaluations to be done. And I think this is a great opportunity to promote and shoutout our financial planning team and our lead planners that work directly with clients one-on-one to have these types of conversations, to look at what are the opportunities, what’s the goal, what’s the purpose, what’s the priority, and then ultimately, how do we put a plan in place to make sure that we achieve it over time? So for those that are interested in learning more about the comprehensive financial planning services we offer at YFP Planning, head on over to YFPPlanning.com. You can schedule a free discovery call, and we’d love to talk with you to see if our services are a good fit for what you’re looking for. And as always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. That’s going to help others find what we’re doing here over at YFP. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 188: Playing with FIRE: An Interview with Scott Rieckens

Posted on January 28, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Playing with FIRE: An Interview with Scott Rieckens

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Scott Rieckens, author of Playing with FIRE, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about his journey towards achieving FIRE. Scott digs into the ins and outs of the FIRE movement, why he and his wife decided to leave their friends and family in San Diego, how to calculate your early retirement number, and strategies for implementing your own FIRE plan.

About Today’s Guest

Scott Rieckens is an Emmy-nominated film/video producer, serial entrepreneur, and author. Scott has spent his career as a storyteller connecting people with ideas. Along the way, Scott’s work has generated millions of views through a feature-length documentary, multiple televisions series, short films, and a diverse range of commercial projects for Microsoft, NBC, Facebook, FOX, Taylor Guitars, BMW, WIRED and others.

Now, Scott has created Playing with FIRE, which explores the growing community of frugal-minded folks choosing a path to financial independence and early retirement. He and his family reside in Bend, OR.

Summary

When Scott Rieckens, author of Playing with FIRE and creator of the documentary Playing with FIRE, discovered FIRE (financial independence, retire early) a few years ago, it was life changing for him and his family. Achieving FIRE allows people to potentially retire decades earlier than they normally would, a dream that many think could never become a reality. There are some guidelines that allow people to reach this dream, like the 4% rule and 25x rule, however, Scott mentions that FIRE helps you learn habits that push you to save a lot more than you ever thought possible and gets you to start spending your money on things that align with your values. He says that if you start saving more than your spending, you can invest your money in index funds, max out tax advantaged accounts, and let compound interest take over.

Scott became interested in starting a journey towards FIRE after realizing that he wasn’t in control of his time and was spending more time working than he was with his family. With some calculations, Scott determined that if he saved 16% of his income he would retire in 33.4 years but if he saved 58% of his income he could retire in 11 years. He realized that his family was spending money frivolously and went on a quest to align their spending with their values to help reduce their expenses. To figure out his family’s core values, Scott and his wife, Taylor, independently wrote 10 things that provide happiness to them. They continued this exercise weekly and used it as a tool to reduce spending money on things that weren’t aligned with their values and created a budget around what makes them happy.

Scott also talks through how mental shifts can help you cut expenses, how to push yourself to save more money, how to calculate your early retirement number, and strategies for implementing your own FIRE plan.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Scott, welcome to the show!

Scott Rieckens: Thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Really excited about this interview. As I mentioned before we hit record, I loved the book “Playing with FIRE,” couldn’t put it down, read it in about 24 hours. Loved the documentary. And I’m excited to get you in front of our community as I know this topic is something that is of interest, and I think your story as well as the broader conversation around FIRE is going to provide a lot of value. So thank you again for taking the time.

Scott Rieckens: Yeah, it’s my absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

Tim Ulbrich: So for those in our community that are hearing about FIRE for maybe the first or even second time, give us a high level overview. What exactly is the FIRE movement all about?

Scott Rieckens: So the FIRE movement, it’s — FIRE is an acronym that stands for Financial Independence, Retire Early. And I think it’s a community of people who are practicing sort of a preconceived set of principles so that they can put themselves in a position of financial independence, potentially retiring decades earlier than they would have expected with sort of the way we saw ourselves growing up. So you know, it’s sort of nebulous because there are certain rules that — well, there’s things like the 4% Rule that’s called a rule, but it’s really more of a guideline. And I kind of see many of the principles of FIRE being more of a guideline than a rule. So there’s no hard and fast rules in the FIRE movement. There’s probably not even a real movement yet. But I do think that we’re starting to see seeds of social change. And once, you know, once this can really hit mainstream to the point where we’re seeing social change predicated off of or because of the FIRE movement, then I think we can call it a movement. But for now, it’s fun to call it the movement because it helps those of us who are trying to make it a movement move along. But ultimately the idea is that you learn habits that help you save a lot more than you thought was possible or just really start spending according to your values and really taking a hard look at what those values are as it relates to your spending. And if you can start saving more than you’re making, well, we have a pretty tried-and-true investment strategy. You know, and again, it varies and they’re more guidelines. But in general, people like to invest the surplus in index funds and max out your tax advantaged accounts as much as possible. And then the beauty of compound interest takes over, and the next thing you know, you’re looking at a growing net worth, a growing portfolio, and before you know it, you might have enough to live off of for the rest of your life. So these were all foreign concepts to me three years ago. And then I heard a podcast with Mr. Money Mustache, who is one of the — maybe one of the modern founders of the FIRE movement — and he was discussing these things, and I had never heard of them. I always looked at investing as sort of this nebulous thing that I wasn’t too aware of and I would need a Master’s degree to even participate in. So I kind of brushed it under the rug. And then I heard about all these things, and it all sounded pretty easy to understand and pretty accessible, and it all made sense. And so that’s kind of how I got on the path to our FIRE journey.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And I love that you mentioned, Scott, guidelines because I think that it can feel perhaps if people are learning for the first time that it’s an exact science or somewhat legalistic in some regards. But as we talk about many parts of the financial plan, it comes down to customizing it to your personal situation, and everyone’s situation is different. So I think the guidelines, the principles, are really important. And one of those being — you mentioned the 4% Rule. Talk to us about what is the 4% Rule, and how does that impact one determines what their “FIRE number” is?

Scott Rieckens: Yeah, so the 4% Rule, like I said, more of a 4% Guideline, is a pretty incredible little assumption. And it’s that if you withdraw 4% off of your portfolio annually that — I think it’s something like you have a 96% chance of not running out of your principal investment portfolio over 30 years. And it’s based off of this thing called the Trinity Study. So another way to look at it is — the way I like to look at it is the 25x Rule. And so basically, you take your annual spending. Let’s say it’s $40,000 a year. And you multiply that by 25. And that is $1 million. And so basically, it gives you a way to figure out how much do I need to retire? So if your annual spending is x, you multiply x by 25, and that’s how much you need to retire because you’ll have a 96% chance of never running out of the principal investment portfolio that you have. So it’s a pretty darn safe assumption and guideline. Now, there are some people in the movement that are maybe talking about 3.75% or 3.5% is even safer, and that’s — you know, that all has to do with so many different parameters: your risk tolerance, if you plan to have sort of a side hustle or any kind of passive income or non-passive income into your “retirement years.” And those things can affect, you know, when you decide or what your percentage or when you decide to pull the trigger on your path to financial independence. But in general, I mean, I was starting from scratch. So I couldn’t have even told you how to understand what I need to retire or what that would even look like. And so to just call it the 4% Rule or the 25x and the way I just described it to you, like that’s pretty simple. It made sense to me. And it’s backed by some pretty credible studies. And like I said, there’s people in the movement who are far superior to me in intelligence who pick this stuff apart annually. And so this isn’t something that’s like oh yeah, a study way back in the day said this thing, so we’re all good. This is something that people are constantly scrutinizing. And it turns out what it’s all predicated on is the stock market over time just continues to grow. And so if you’re putting your investments into the stock market — and one of the safest bets you can make is investing in index funds because especially really solid index funds like let’s say Vanguard’s VTSAX, there are a whole team of people who are ensuring that the index of stocks are the highest performing stocks they can possibly have in that index, and it basically represents the growing stock market. So what’s nice about that is you can take a pretty reasonable growth average, and then you can start building models for what your future might look like. And like we have a retirement calculator on our website that, you know, basically bakes in all these principles into one little calculator, and you just plug in your own personal numbers and you can kind of see, oh, alright, you’re on the path, and this is how long it’s going to take you to reach financial independence. Taylor and I did this early, early on in our journey, and for Taylor, it was a huge eye-opener. It was for me as well, but I had gone through a lot of this stuff because I didn’t bring it all to her right away because it was a lot to bring because we were making a lot of interesting money decisions at that time, and there was a lot to unpack there to keep our relationship together while trying to also convince her to maybe join me on this crazy quest to pursue FIRE. But ultimately, you know, when we did the retirement calculator, at our current spending at that time, we were looking at — I think it was something like 40 years of additional work. And at that point, we were so burnt out by work, 40 years sounded like a life sentence. And it was something like we’d be working into our mid- to late 70s I want to say. And then I did some rearranging and said, OK, well if we cut our rent by this and we get rid of our two leased cars and we buy a used car for $8,000 or whatever it was, and we cut our food spending — we needed to cut that quite a bit, it was more than half, let’s say that — and then all these other extraneous things we’re doing, I mean, entertainment. The amount of money we were spending on entertainment was insane, especially where we lived where there was so much free entertainment all around us. And I started doing those numbers and kind of just built a pretty reasonable budget, and I re-entered that information into the retirement calculator to see that we were I think at that time, it was something like 10 years or something away from financial independence. I mean, to shave three decades off of your working career by just making smart money decisions, to me, that was a no-brainer. And it was a huge eye-opener because it wasn’t as if we were spending because we couldn’t help it. It wasn’t because — we weren’t spending because we have an insatiable consumeristic bent, you know?

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Scott Rieckens: We didn’t see ourselves that way at all. We kind of were that way, but we didn’t see ourselves that way. And so to just have that eye-opening realization and to get that in order and to do so with the guidance of a pretty strong community online where I could go for answers at any time and have some pretty compelling arguments on why I would want to do these things, it was a pretty quick and swift decision I think in the Rieckens household. And then we got busy sharing that story with the world because I’m a content creator by trade, and this story just seemed too important not to share.

Tim Ulbrich: And it was a great story to share. And for those that want to check out the retirement calculator as well as the other resources and learn more about the book, the documentary, PlayingwithFIRE.co, again, PlayingwithFIRE.co. And Scott, the math is really incredible. I pulled a note from the book. You had mentioned that when you first crunched the numbers using that retirement calculator, you determined you could retire in 34.3 years with a savings rate of 16%, which is a pretty good savings rate. And that was using $120,000 annual expenses, $22,000 in savings. And then the next calculation showed a drop from 34.3 years to 11 years if you could cut expenses in half and get to a savings rate of 58%. So I think that’s what I love about the way you teach this material, the way others teach this in the community, the 25x Rule or maybe it’s the 27x Rule, whatever that number is is that it helps shine a light on retirement numbers. It’s math, right? It’s a set of assumptions, and then you can look at things and determine, OK, what can I change? What might I not be able to change? What levers can I pull? What will have more impact? And then you’re off and running if that’s a goal that you want to pursue. And so I want to talk more about your story. And I want to read for a moment a segment from the book, Chapter 1 is Work, Eat, Sleep and Repeat. And you say this at the beginning of the chapter. You say, “If you’d driven by me on the freeway in San Diego on this particular Monday morning in Feb. 2017, you probably wouldn’t have looked twice. A guy in his mid-30s, sitting in traffic in a relatively new but unremarkable car, drinking a cold brew from Starbucks, just another American heading to work. In fact, there was nothing particularly special about that Monday morning, and I would have lumped it in with 100 other ordinary Monday mornings that I had spent navigating traffic on my way to work, except that on this particular morning, I heard an idea that would change the course of my entire life, an idea that would cause me to quit my job, leave California and spend a year traveling with my family, to question everything I thought I knew about success, money and freedom, to find the secret to the American Dream, the thing that most people crave but few achieve, the ability to do absolutely anything I wanted.” My question here is what caused this desire and feeling? And when did this begin?

Scott Rieckens: Man. I haven’t heard that back in awhile. That was fun. I think we all have an inherent desire for a certain sense of freedom and independence. And you know, I think — I can’t speak for everyone, but when I was in school, when I was in high school and then getting into college, I look back with sort of I think I had sort of a relentless optimism that work would be interesting and what I would do would be great and the things that would follow that, family and friends and all the things, you know, that they would carry me along the way. And I think as you start to get in — well, in my case, got into my mid-30s, I’d been working for a decade, some of those things came true. I got to achieve some goals I had set for myself. I had done some things I was proud of, had just started a family, which I was also immensely proud of. And all those things are fantastic, but they weren’t the entire picture of fulfillment for me because what was weighing me down was I wasn’t in control of my time. Next thing you know, I’ve built this family, I’ve got this job, but there’s no balance here. I have to be at my job more that I want to be and see my family less than I want to see them. I think that’s what it really boiled down to was just why don’t I have that control? And when it hit me, what really hit me was it was my own decisions, it was my own choices, our family’s own choices that were hindering us from having that control and having that freedom. And that’s something that had not connected for me. And you know, at the end of the day, for better or for worse, money is how the world operates. You know, this is how our social construct has been constructed. So what it really boils down to is can you earn money? And if so, how are you using it? And I just had not spent the time to consider those things. One of the taglines of this whole project is what if a happier life were a few simple choices away? And I think that’s ultimately — like that encapsulates what I had found, which was that there is a happier life a few simple choices away. That’s incredible. And then the next question that we kind of posed to ourselves was like, how far would you go for financial freedom?

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Scott Rieckens: You know? And that’s ultimately up to you. So that’s why I always say like, the FIRE movement is a set of guidelines, not rules. And the FIRE movement may or may not a movement, but there’s certainly a community of people who really appreciate the idea of spending less on extraneous things that don’t really bring you value and really being smart with your choices. And when you have a group of people that see it that way, it makes it a lot easier to do because I also remember having to unpack our life a bit. You know, there were a lot of — whether it was true or not, whether it was sort of a figment of our imagination or a reality, it felt daunting to suddenly take on a new identity, right? Because you have all of your friends and all of your family that see you one way and have gotten accustomed and used to the way you are. And to have to just kind of throw all that out and start fresh can be really daunting. And so it’s really helpful — you know, like never before were we able to just connect with people that see it this way that might have more information than you do and would happily share it for free instantly. That’s never really happened before, and I think that, like many things that the internet’s provided, it’s created a place where like-minded people can come together and learn from each other and grow something really quickly, grow a social movement very quickly. And right now, you know, Phase 1 of the FIRE whatever it is, to me is getting the word out. It’s improving financial literacy and realigning our world’s connection with what’s most important. You know, that’s a big, daunting task. It’s going to take a lot of time. But the best case scenario would be that Phase 2 is liberating a bunch of really smart, ambitious people from jobs that they may be apathetic at best about and liberate them to go pursue their favorite future. And what could that look like? And how could that change the world?

Tim Ulbrich: I love the way you’re thinking about that because I share that with you, Scott. What would that look like for our communities? What would that look like in terms of people maximizing their talent and their passions? And you know, we’re so passionate at YFP about if we can help put together a financial plan that allows people to pursue some of those goals, wow. I mean, game on in terms of what we could see in people getting the most of the talents that they’ve been getting. One of the things in the book that really resonated with me, as well as the documentary, which showcases the process that you and your wife Taylor worked through to get on a shared goal and path to pursue FIRE. And you mention this wasn’t easy. You know, you were obviously on board, ready to go, had been learning a lot of information and trying to get on the same page. But what I loved was in the book, in Chapter 3, you talk about an exercise where you and Taylor independently wrote down 10 things that provided happiness. And then you came together to share those lists. Why did you do that activity? And what did you glean from doing that?

Scott Rieckens: Yeah, I think, you know, looking back, it was a lot smarter decision that I think I knew it was at the time. But ultimately, you know, if we needed to align our values with our spending, it’s like, well, what are our values? And I think an easy way to decide is just think about what makes you happy. And you know, we did a happiness list predicated on a weekly basis. And it felt like the right time frame. Like if you do like on a daily basis, you’re going to get in the minutia of life and you might get too specific about the things that bring you happiness. And if you go too far out, you might get a little grand. It might be international travel or BMWs or whatever Taylor might have put on the list at that time. But a weekly basis, it’s like, what are you up to this week? And it’s like, well, I’ve got work, I’ve got this, I’ve got that. And what am I going to do to kind of inject some happiness along the way? Well, I’m going to go for a walk. I’m going to go for a bike ride. I’m going to maybe make a nice dinner this week or whatever it is. So it becomes that sort of like centered, realistic happiness list. So I really like the weekly timeframe. But yeah, we sat down and did that, and there’s a couple elements to it. One is I can’t decide for Taylor what makes her happy. And at that time, we were living in this beach community and were spending a ton of money to do so. And if the beach was on her list, and the lifestyle that that particular area provided was just swarming her list, then I had my work cut out for me. We would have to figure out a way to make that work because, you know, the idea of pursuing FIRE was not to go create a whole bunch of disruptive, diminished returns. Like I wanted to make sure that this was going to improve our lives. And so I needed to hear that from her. And she needed to consider it too because you can easily be reactionary when you think something’s about to be taken away from you. You can easily be reactionary when you’re being propositioned with something as drastic as maybe FIRE could be, and it was for us, of like having to — not having to, but maybe making the choice to move. That’s a big choice. Leave your friends behind, leave your jobs behind, like whatever you end up doing. And so yeah, I think you need to start with ultimately like, what are your values? And I think that was a way to do it. So that was critical. And it actually helped so tremendously because we didn’t even talk about money first. We talked about happiness. And I can’t recommend that enough. You talk about what matters to you the most. Then go work on a budget. Don’t work on a budget and never talk about happiness.

Tim Ulbrich: Amen.

Scott Rieckens: Or go the other way, you know, talk about your budget and then talk about happiness. Like how are you going to budget for things if you don’t know what you care about? You know, it was such a small but critical piece to our journey. And yeah, I can’t recommend it enough. Whether you decide to pursue FIRE or not, going through your Top 10 list of what makes you happy on a weekly basis quite often, maybe quarterly or biannually, is a damn good idea because it changes too. You know? We’re evolving beings, and we care more about things sometimes and care less about things other times. And those things should be reflected in your spending habits. So yeah, that was critical. And I got lucky in that scenario because she did not talk about her expensive car and she did not talk about the beach. And so that really was an opening to mutually discuss the potential for leaving. And that was ultimately I think what I would credit with why that was so successful.

Tim Ulbrich: And that was the sense I got when I read it, and it’s quoted here, you talk it all out. I hope our listeners take you up on that challenge to do it. I couldn’t agree more. And just as I reread some of these, it puts things into perspective really quick, right? I mean, I see things on here like, “Hearing my baby laugh,” you know, “Spending time having coffee with my husband,” “going for a walk,” “going for a bike ride.” And I think starting with those types of conversations around happiness and then getting into the budget and the plan and how we’re going to get there is so important. We taught this often with the financial plan of think about the goals, script your plan, and then we’ll get into the x’s and o’s because the x’s and o’s should be within the framework of the vision that we have, and that vision should ultimately derive back to how is money a tool related to deriving happiness? And by the way, Taylor nailed this when she had on here, “Wine, chocolate, and coffee.” Three of my favorite things. So she crushed that list.

Scott Rieckens: Yeah. Yeah. And I told her, look, we can buy all the wine, chocolate, and coffee you want if we take these steps on all the rest of it. And it’s worked.

Tim Ulbrich: So you mentioned the BMW, and I know that comes up throughout the book, but in all seriousness, when our listeners hear the timeframe I mentioned earlier, going from a projected retirement in 34 years down to 11 and how do you get there, you cut expenses and you increase savings. And obviously the next question is, well, how do you make dramatic cuts to expenses so you can increase your savings? So you mentioned food being one of them. You’ve alluded to the BMW. Were there other big-ticket items that were instrumental to you guys knocking down a big expense so you could get the momentum you needed?

Scott Rieckens: You know, specifically, housing, cars and food are typically the top three items that cost the most for an average family. So housing, cars and food are the No. 1 three things that I would recommend taking a hard look at, how you can get creative. Outside of those specific things, I think the thing that was the most important was the mentality, the mental shift and being on the same page because — and I can tell you this from three years of experience now. We’re not always rocking the FIRE train. You know, it’s not consistent. Like it can be consistent. We can go months, even years, where we’re on track. And then like COVID hit. And boy, one excuse after another just start popping in. Like oh, hell no. I’m doing this, I’m doing that. I’m buying this, I’m buying that. I don’t care. And I don’t regret it. We looked back at the New Year, during the New Year here, we looked back at 2020 and we said, “You know what? I think it’s better if we just don’t look at it. Let’s forgive ourselves for the decisions we made and let’s look forward because the good news is we already kind of built up the muscle, you know? We already worked out, we already know how to do this. And so let’s just keep — let’s just do it again.” And it’s amazing because it was literally a mental shift. We sat down to kind of plan out our 2021, a little vision board kind of afternoon. And it really came down to like, we wrote down the things that we wanted to shift from 2020 to 2021. And it was like, anytime we make a purchase, we talk to each other about it first, no matter how trivial because that will make us question our own decision on whether or not we need that thing and will be less about what I have to say to her and it’s more about what she has to say to herself. And it kind of prevents this reflexive, oh, it’s on Amazon, let’s grab it real quick, it’ll be here in two days, easy day, done. And that can get out of hand so quick, and so it was — and we’ve done things like that in the past, like put something in the Amazon cart and you have to keep it there for three days. If you come back in three days and you still want it, you can get it. We needed to go a little harder this time into this new year because 2020 was a dumpster fire. But again, it’s just like the best you can do is flex that mentality because we immediately got on the same page. We didn’t have to have the difficult discussion again. And I think we had the financial maturity finally to look at 2020 and say, there was a reason for those decisions. And we don’t need to sit here and relive them, we don’t need to make ourselves feel bad about them. And it did set us back a little bit on our FIRE journey. But we’re in good shape, and thank goodness because with the destruction of this year, I mean, how grateful and lucky are we that we found this when we did?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Scott Rieckens: Imagine where we would be if we hadn’t. And imagine all the folks who are suffering through these difficult times, you know? And so we were able to look at that and go, OK, we’re super lucky. Let’s get back on track because it would be a real damn shame not to, considering everything we have, you know? It’s like, we can’t afford not to do the right thing here. So I hope that answers your question. I don’t like getting into the specific, specific things of how to cut budgets because it’s really personal. You know? You may live in a low cost of living area already with a budget that’s kind of maxing out. And you don’t know what to do, and that could be a matter of having to find ways to increase your income, negotiate a bigger salary, move to a better place — or not a better place but a place with better prospects for higher salaries in your job and then being more deliberate about what your costs are in that higher cost of living area so that you can reap the benefits of the higher pay but not have to also succumb to the higher living costs. You know, there are ways to do those things, the geoarbitrage stuff. But to me, that’s all the fun fine dining in the FIRE community. That’s all the stuff you can learn in the blogs and the podcasts and whatnot is all those very specific detailed minutia of how to really formulate your budget if you want to go hard. But to get started, I think the bigger challenge and the bigger quest is for people to align their values with their spending and start pushing themselves, you know? Taylor and I, we did something that I would recommend, actually. It was extreme in some cases, and I use that word kind of flippantly. I don’t know if it’s extreme, per se, but we — I mean, we did a lot of things very quickly. Within months, we literally packed up and moved our stuff to try to find a place that was cheaper to live, leaving behind a job. I quit my job to do this. And we left behind a whole set of friends and a whole culture that we had built for ourselves, you know? And we slashed all of our spending so hard that we ended up at our peak, we were at like a 76% or 78% savings rate, something in that range. It was extreme. We didn’t buy anything unless it was absolutely critical. And we started to get a little miserable, to be honest. Like it wasn’t fun, you know? And part of that was good, though, because we were ripping off the Band-Aid and showing ourselves how much retail therapy we were really doing. And it ended up being — that’s like such an old adage, but it’s like, you know, the best things in life are free and all that stuff. It’s like, yeah, and not only that but we were going to sushi dinners, let’s say, or just nice, fine dining dinners so often that I remember — I remember one time sitting down to a beautiful, amazing sushi dinner. And we were walking home from it, and I think our discussion was something along the lines of like, “Yeah, it was good, but I feel like last week’s was better.” And it was like, that’s horrible. That’s a horrible waste of money because if I’m comparing this amazing, decadent, unbelievable dinner that took — if you think about what it took to get that fish on that plate, it’s incredible.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Scott Rieckens: And I’m sitting here comparing it to last week’s. And it’s like, oh my gosh. And so to go through and really rip that Band-Aid off and go through the sort of “hardships,” you know, and then all of a sudden we haven’t eaten out in two or three months and then you go to a medium fancy restaurant, and it’s like heaven.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Scott Rieckens: It’s so amazing. And so it’s almost like it’s a weird hack where all of a sudden, you’re like, wait, I like this more now.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Scott Rieckens: Because I’m doing it less. And that’s when you can get into stoicism and all these various philosophies. And I don’t know, it’s just like our life started improving, even when it was more difficult. And that was an interesting paradox that ultimately, to bring this all back, is the reason why I suggest if people are interested in this and you decide to do it, to go hard at first because, you know, push yourself as hard as you can to see what your real — not your breaking point, but like, you know, your proverbial budget breaking point, see what that is and then work backwards from that. Don’t start where you are and incrementally try to improve because I just don’t think that’s going to be as effective, and you probably won’t stick with it, you know? But for us, to like go to 76-78% savings rates and be miserable and start going, OK, what are the things that we should add back in? And that was a deliberate decision. Next thing you know, we’re hitting like a 50% savings rate, which is incredible. And it feels easy. It feels luxurious. And it’s like, oh, this is it. This is awesome. How lucky are we. But we could have been doing the whole time if we had just made better decisions. And so yeah, I hope that helps.

Tim Ulbrich: It does. And the book and the documentary really takes the reader or viewer through your individual stories. And I also like in the book, you bring in other examples as I think that, again, back to the comment about customizing the scene, the different variations, helps give people ideas about how this might apply to their own individual situation. And one of the questions I have for you, Scott, is when I read the book, I really connected with you as a father of four young children. You discuss in the book the birth of your daughter in 2015 and how ultimately, you’d be pursuing this journey together as a young family. And I suspect many of our listeners are wondering, man, is this really possible? Is this lifestyle and this goal realistic with children? You picked up, you moved, you made some drastic cuts along the way. What advice or what thoughts would you give people surrounding pursuing FIRE while they have a young family?

Scott Rieckens: I don’t know that the children thing — the children thing’s tough because they are expensive little buggers, you know? They are. They’re going to “set you back” from your financial independence date.

Tim Ulbrich: Fact.

Scott Rieckens: But that’s ultimately a tradeoff — I’m sure you would agree with me — is well worth it.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure. Yes, absolutely.

Scott Rieckens: Nothing’s more important. I think for me, I look at it a little differently. It’s not, “Hey, guys, you’ve got some kids? Here’s a couple of trick to make it totally possible to do FIRE.” If you use kids as your excuse not to pursue FIRE, you’re not going to pursue FIRE, but it won’t be because of your kids. It’s because you have decided that that’s what you’ve — that’s what you’ve decided. You know? Don’t use the excuse of your kids. I’m here to tell you, I mean, I only have one, so I don’t have four. But — sorry about that. Gees. Good for you. Wow. Fighting the good fight. But you know, ultimately, we’ve got such a better plan for our financial future and her financial future because we’ve decided to make these choices. And I recognize that not everyone could tomorrow pick up and make the choice. But I assume, you know, your audience is probably in the camp that could make these choices. They just seem daunting. And that’s a great place to be. And so yeah, I wouldn’t use kids as an excuse. There are ways to — obviously there are hacks in everything we do when we spend money. And there are things that you think you need to spend money on that you don’t, you know? You can — just to be clear, I mean, you can buy the brand new Italian-made stroller. Or you can look on Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist and find a used one. It’s all the obvious tips and tricks. But what’s more impactful, in my opinion, is you look at that and you go, yeah, but for my baby, I want the best or for my baby, it needs to be this or that. And those are the types of things where if you’re really aligning your values with your spending, you may look at it a little bit differently after you really do some reading up on the FIRE movement and you understand why you’re spending and the decisions that you’re making. And the next thing you know, you go from only the best for my baby to only the best for my baby and what that entails is not a brand new, Italian-made stroller. It is buying the budget stroller because the amount of money that we can save by doing that will ultimately lead to that child’s college fund or our ability to spend more time with that kid, which will then allow that child to grow better, have a better relationship with their family, with their parents, get more attention and so on and so forth. I mean, these shifts are exponential. The compound interest does not just take over on the money. Yeah, that’s how I would look at it. It’s not a matter of you’ve got kids, here’s five budget tips to help with FIRE when you have kids.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Scott Rieckens: It’s, you have kids? Don’t use them as an excuse to pursue financial independence, which will ultimately benefit everyone in your family.

Tim Ulbrich: And speaking of daunting, many of our listeners, Scott, unfortunately are facing big-time student loan debt. For those that came out of pharmacy school in 2020, about $175,000 is the average, $175,000. So maybe this goes in the excuse bucket, maybe not, but obviously big student loan debt, granted they have a decent income to work with. But what are the thoughts for folks that have big mountains of student loan debt? Obviously that’s a barrier, but is something that others are facing. What have you heard from your experience? And what advice or thoughts do you give folks that are looking at student loan debt but want to pursue a path towards financial independence?

Scott Rieckens: First of all, I have the utmost empathy for people that have that kind of a mountain of debt. And you know, the hope is that that debt was an investment in an education that’s going to give you the ability to pay off that debt and ultimately be even better off for it in the long run. And so with that in mind, nothing changes about my advice or the way I see it because if you have debt, as insurmountable as it may feel, that is ultimately just one barrier in the way of financial independence. And so I guess instead of starting from $0 and then starting to build your net worth, you’re starting from negative and starting to build your net worth. Either way, I would say if you have that amount of debt, you should consider it and treat it as an emergency and a crisis. And people with that situation should absolutely pursue FIRE, at the very least to get themselves out of that debt and starting at $0, you know? And what you do see oftentimes is people that I’ve seen, I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it with my own eyes, I’ve talked to people that did these things and then pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, got the FIRE thing going, and pulled themselves out of this situation. You still have all of these choices. And a lot of times, you’ll see you’ve got this mounting pile of debt, but you have a nice income, and the debt only costs x amount a month, so I’m going to lease this new vehicle, I’m going to get this nice house because I worked so hard to become this profession and now that money’s coming in, so this is what we’re going to do. And all of this boils down to still is choices. It’s those choices. Hey, I’m going to buy a used vehicle with cash that I saved up, and I’m going to eliminate these monthly payments. And those monthly payments are going to go to fund our 401k’s and our Roths. Or if you have a mountain of debt, we are going to pay off that debt as voraciously as we possibly can to get ourselves in a better position, you know? I don’t know, the advice doesn’t change. If anything, it becomes louder if you have a mountain of debt. And that’s a non-empathetic but realistic way to look at it. And another thing I should say is one of the prominent people in the FIRE movement, his name’s Johnathan Mendanza, he’s a cohost of Choose FI, he was a pharmacist.

Tim Ulbrich: Pharmacist.

Scott Rieckens: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Scott Rieckens: And he walked away from a job about a year after finding FIRE because he realigned his spending with his values, he got right, he got on a good track, and then he built what was originally a fun side hustle into something that could sustain him. And he chose a different path than pharmacy. And I’m not suggesting people need to do that. Some people may love their jobs. And by the way, the whole retire early thing? Let’s not get caught up on it. It happens all the time. You may like your job. Great. This is still for you because if you enjoy your job but you have the freedom and flexibility if conditions change, that’s still a win-win. You know?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Scott Rieckens: Ultimately, it’s about gaining back your freedom of choice.

Tim Ulbrich: Couldn’t agree more. I think financial independence is a goal we all should strive for. And I think that should resonate with folks, whether they love what they do every day, they don’t, or somewhere in between. And I want to again point our community to both the documentary, “Playing with FIRE,” as well as your book, “Playing with FIRE.” I can’t say enough about both of those, what they’ve meant to me, the impression they’ve left on me and my wife, Jess. “Playing with FIRE,” the documentary will be available on Amazon, iTunes, Google Play, Vimeo or folks can pick up the DVD at PlayingwithFIRE.co. Storytelling is outstanding, it was named a Top 10 Best Finance Movies of the Decade by U.S. News. It includes a cast of personal finance and FIRE all stars, including Mr. Money Mustache, Vicki Robbins, who’s the author of “Your Money, Your Life,” The Minimalists, the Mad Scientist, Jonathan Brad from Choose FI and more. And then the book, you know, we’ve just scratched the surface here and there’s much more to learn in the book, including the seven steps to achieving FIRE, where to learn more about FIRE and the FIRE community, how to crunch your own FIRE numbers, many FIRE stories, and much more. And that is readily available wherever you normally purchase your books. So Scott, thank you so much again for taking time to come on the show. What is the best place for our listeners to go to learn more about you and the work that you’re doing?

Scott Rieckens: Thanks, Tim. Yeah, PlayingwithFIRE.co, it’s got it all. I’m a big fan of Twitter, so we’re on Twitter @playingwithfireco, and we’re on Instagram as well. So yeah, those are the places you can find us. And hope to see you there.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff again, Scott. And on behalf of the YFP community and our team, thank you so much for taking the time.

Scott Rieckens: Thanks, Tim.

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YFP 187: How to Maximize Your Student Loan Strategy While Federal Student Loan Payments are Paused

Posted on January 21, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How to Maximize Your Student Loan Strategy While Federal Student Loan Payments are Paused

On this episode sponsored by LendKey, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, YFP Lead Financial Planner, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk through how those with federal student loans should be maximizing their student loan repayment strategy during another extension of administrative student loan forbearance.

About Today’s Guest

Kelly is a Lead Planner at YFP. She enjoys time with her husband and two sons, riding her bike, running, keeping after her pup ‘Fred Rogers’. Kelly loves to cheer on her favorite team, plan travel and ironically she really loves great food but does not enjoy cooking at all. She volunteers in her community as part of the Chambersburg Rotary. Kelly believes that there are no quick fixes to financial confidence, no guarantees on investment returns, but there is value in seeking trusted advice to get where you want to go. Kelly’s mission is to help clients go confidently toward their happy place.

Summary

Kelly Reddy-Heffner, YFP’s newest Lead Financial Planner, breaks down what we know and don’t know about student loans right now, her process for helping financial planning clients navigate their student loans, how to choose a repayment plan, and whether borrowers should refinance their student loans when payments resume.

Kelly explains that things are changing rapidly when it comes to student loan payments resuming. While there is a lot that we don’t know about student loans right now, we do know that the most recent stimulus package didn’t include an expansion to the administrative forbearance, interest rates are still low but are starting to slightly increase, and that President Biden’s transition team announced that they would extend the student loan payment and interest freeze when he takes office, although we don’t know when that will be.

While there are many unknowns for the future of student loans, Kelly urges borrowers to get a clear picture of their debt, look at potential opportunities for forgiveness, and think about their capacity for repayment and the opportunity cost of other financial goals. Kelly explains that there are a lot of factors that go into deciding which student loan repayment strategy is best, like the borrower’s budget, behavior, and mindset and that while student loans are an important piece of the financial plan, they can’t be looked at in a silo.

To help pharmacists determine how to best tackle their student loans, YFP offers a one-on-one student loan analysis. In the student loan analysis, one of our certified financial planners works with you to evaluate which repayment option and strategy is best for your situation. They’ll help you inventory your loans, analyze the debt, give recommendations, calculate repayment amounts with different options, provide insight on whether consolidating or refinancing is necessary, and offer next steps to you.

Visit www.yourfinancialpharmacist.com/studentloananalysis to learn more about this service.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, everyone. Tim Ulbrich here. And before we jump into today’s show with YFP lead planner Kelly Reddy-Heffner to discuss considerations while federal student loan payments are still paused, we want to make sure you have the most up-to-date information. We recorded this episode last week, but today, Jan. 20, 2021, there was an executive order signed by President Biden on his first day in office related to student loans. President Biden has directed the Department of Education to extend the administrative forbearance on qualifying federal loans through Sept. 30, 2021. Prior to today’s news, the freeze on payments and interest accruing was set to expire at the end of this month. So stay tuned to this show and updates in the YFP Facebook group for continuing discussion on the implications of this news to those that have federal loans and were waiting to hear whether or not payments would restart in February. As we talk about on the show today, now is the time, while this administrative forbearance period continues, to weigh all of the repayment options and strategies and determine the one that is best for your personal situation so that you can hit the ground running with a solid plan come October 2021. And of course, for those with private loans and non-qualifying federal loans, there is no reason to wait on making that decision. Alright, let’s jump into today’s show. Kelly, welcome to the show.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Thanks, Tim. Thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I’m excited for this episode. And I sense our listeners are eager as well, considering the topic as well as the times. And before we jump into talking about student loans and important considerations for borrowers given the current situation, let’s do a proper introduction of you to the YFP community. We’re ecstatic to have you as a part of the YFP team as our newest lead planner. And I know our clients and community will benefit greatly from your insights and from your expertise. So tell us a little bit about yourself, your career path into financial planning and ultimately becoming a Certified Financial Planner.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Thank you. Yeah. So I’m really happy to be a part of the YFP team and of course to be on the podcast today. So I actually started out after getting my MBA working in continuing education for pharmacists. So I did that for a number of years. I loved it. But my husband, who is also a healthcare professional, we always seemed to have a ton of questions about our money and how to manage our finances. So we had pursued getting some expert assistance. But I’ll be honest, we were not considered great clients. You know, we had student loan debt, we were just starting retirement accounts. So to answer all of our endless burning questions, I went back to school, got my CFP, started a business. I wanted to really help other people like myself understand their big money decisions. So I knew of Tim Baker through our planning network for financial planners. I saw a job post, piqued my interest even though I wasn’t looking for a job, and the rest is history. YFP is the perfect mix of my interests. So I’m really happy to be a part of the team.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, we’re excited to have you. And I never want to take for granted someone’s willingness to come on and do a podcast. So I appreciate you being both interested and willing to do this. And knowing you’ve been working with many of our clients already, even since you joined us, on student loans and given the news that seems to be changing daily at the moment around this, we wanted to dig back in on this topic, knowing we’ve got some new information that is obviously timely that we want to make sure our community and of course our clients are aware of as well. So we, of course, have talked about student loans on the podcast a lot. And for those that have been listening for some time, you know that. But as I have alluded to, we’re in a unique situation, and the time that warrants us to revisit this topic here in January 202. And as we’ll talk about, depending on what the Biden administration does or perhaps doesn’t do regarding student loans, there’s a lot that we don’t know right now about the future of student loan payments, about interest rates, about possible loan cancellation or not, possible expansion of Public Service Loan Forgiveness, but we want to make sure that no matter what the next steps are with federal student loan repayments, that you are prepared, that you’re confident in understanding and evaluating those options, and you’re ready to tackle them with an intentional plan. I keep telling folks, this is the perfect time, while we’re in this time period of the administrative forbearance, now is the time to tidy up your student loan repayment plan to make sure that you’re ready to hit the ground running when that administrative forbearance ends, whenever that would be, so you feel confident in walking into the next steps as it relates to your student loans. So Kelly, at the time that we’re recording this, mid-January 2021, what do we know and what do we not know about federal student loan payments and interest rates?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with you, Tim, like this is a perfect time to really think about these issues. So what we do know is over the past 10 months, we’ve had a federal student loan forbearance where folks have had $0 payments, 0% interest accumulated. We know that the stimulus package that was recently passed did not include a provision to expand student loan relief. We know just from our client base and again, from my own personal experience, we know student loan debt is a huge issue, especially for healthcare professionals. So we know that interest rates have been incredibly low over the past several months, but we know that they’re starting to creep up a bit as well. We know that Biden’s transition team has announced that they’ll extend the payment and interest freeze, which was set to expire on Jan. 31. So those are the things that we know. But then there’s a lot that we don’t know as well. So we don’t know exactly what that expansion means. We don’t know, you know, for how long. We don’t know if there’s also going to be a $10,000 forgiveness, that has been discussed. I would anticipate an expansion, an extension of that $0 payment, 0% interest, to probably be for about six months. I’m not taking any bets or wagers, and I know the timing’s going to be pretty amazing for whether I’m right or wrong, we’ll know pretty quickly. I don’t think the $10,000 is quite as likely, but that has been discussed. So we don’t know how much interest rates will increase or change in 2021 either. It’s harder — that is harder to predict, I think. I think rates will rise but slowly. So I was looking at some data from Credible, and I could see the average variable rates for, using an example of like refinancing for student loan debt, five-year term, borrowers with good credit, like 720 or higher, so it was a record low of 2.75% in June. And then we’re seeing like 3.26% in December. So we know the rates have come up some. I think that it’s really important to also say we don’t know the continued impact of the pandemic on jobs, payroll, and income security either. So we know some things, but there’s a lot more that we don’t know.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, great synopsis, Kelly. And I agree with your I guess projections, we could call them. And I want to be clear to the listeners, as you have, some of what we’re talking about, it’s changing so quickly. And as you mentioned, there’s a lot of things we don’t know. You know, we’re expecting to see that extension happen, how long, nobody knows the answer to that. Hopefully we will know very soon. As you mentioned, there’s been discussion around some debt cancellation. I agree with you, probably unlikely for a variety of reasons. But again, time will tell. But we do know that we’ve seen an increase in rates that’s happening, which presents an interesting question on where refinance does or doesn’t fit. We’ll come back to that here in a moment. So you know, my question, Kelly, as I hear you talking about that, putting myself in the shoes of a listener who’s perhaps facing $150,000-200,000 of debt, they’ve enjoyed this time period of administrative forbearance, perhaps able to put that money towards other goals such as paying down credit card debt or beefing up their emergency fund, or some other things. And now the question is, you know, what do I do going forward? And so as you’re working with clients that are coming on board as client of YFP Planning and they’re in this situation today, how do you approach coming up with a game plan to tackle the debt, especially given the current situation and the unknown future? What does this process look like?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Sure. I mean, we start out with just a basic, you know, objective of figuring out where are we at with this? So we want to have a clear picture of the debt. Is it federal, private? What is their employment type? Are they working for a for-profit organization? A non for-profit? Is there an opportunity for forgiveness? And then we’re looking at importantly, their capacity for repayment and what are the opportunity costs of repayment versus just like you referenced, some of those other goals: paying down credit card debt, some other important financial issues. So we really do need to look at a client’s unique circumstance and their perspective on repayment. There are a lot of factors to consider.

Tim Ulbrich: And when we’re thinking about paying back loans, especially after the administrative forbearance, obviously it’s a good idea to check in, take stock of the loans that one has, understanding their interest rates, understanding the loan servicer that they’ll be working with to repay those loans. So talk us through more of the process of how you help folks get a snapshot of what their current situation is.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Yeah, absolutely. So it is always a good idea to be taking a look at where your student loan debt is, even if you had a plan in place or you’re just starting out. The management of our financial resources, they change with different things that happen. You know, the stimulus certainly changed how you might have been planning to repay the debt. So we start with some basics, you know, studentaid.gov is a good resource, a borrower’s credit report, and then we can see what debt is outstanding. You know, it’s challenging at the moment. Studentaid.gov is defaulting to $0 payment, 0% interest. So sometimes, we need to dig a little deeper and see some of those earlier loan documents. But before the CARES Act, you know, hopefully folks have some information on file to help us with that. But the recognition of the debt is a key step in taking control of the situation. Debt can be very overwhelming, so we have to recognize it for what it is and then get to work. So again, borrowers often have a good idea that hey, we have a significant student loan debt issue, but they’re not quite sure of the details. Borrowers have increased their knowledge thanks in part to podcasts like ours, and we have some other great resources available as well. We have some books and additional materials. But a good strategy is the baseline knowledge. But a great strategy is in the details of the payment type, the interest rate, decisions to consolidate or refinance, and that’s where a borrower may be challenged to differentiate between the details. A full inventory definitely is the first step. And although it’s a bit cumbersome, it’s critical to understanding what your best options are.

Tim Ulbrich: And I love what you said there, Kelly, you know, debt can feel overwhelming. We have to recognize it for what it is and then get to work on a plan. You know, thinking back to my own personal journey, it’s almost like you’ve got to open up the closet and see the scary monster before you’re ready to address, you know, the situation. Like and I think it’s easy sometimes to say, let’s sweep it under the rug. I’d rather not just think about this. Often when I work with student pharmacists on this and we do a session where we have them inventory their loans or other things, there’s that moment of like, do I really want to know? Do I really want to know what I’m dealing with? But you’ve got to be able to uncover that and obviously as you referenced, the inventory is so important to then be able to determine what might be the best student loan repayment plan and path heading forward. So once folks have that inventory, once they know what they’re working with, once they have that snapshot, the question then is where do you start? So what are the main payoff strategies, Kelly, that folks have to think about when paying off their student loans, at least in terms of staying in the federal system?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely. So you’re right, I mean, once you’ve pulled the Band-Aid off, which is both a, you know, hopefully a bit of a cathartic episode, you know, here we go. We know what we have to work with. Then it, you know, we’re looking at a couple different things. We start out by figuring out does the person, the borrower, qualify for PSLF or non-PSLF forgiveness? Is that an option? I also think it’s really important to understand does the borrower have the financial capacity to repay the loans at the current rate? Or are they already struggling with the repayment with other things that are going on? We definitely have to take note of that. Then we’re looking, you know, are they in the right repayment plan to accomplish income-driven repayment and/or forgiveness. If the payments are affordable and folks are really comfortable with the payment amount, then we start looking, well hey, can we create a strategy where maybe you can accelerate the repayment? Maybe you do need to think about a refinance. So yeah, we’re right off the bat just looking at those high-level things to get started.

Tim Ulbrich: And so just as you mentioned there, you know, a few different options: PSLF, non-PSLF forgiveness, we’ve talked about these on the show before. You know, thankfully I think because many of our listeners have been following for awhile, we can throw around terms like IDR and income-driven repayment, people know what we’re talking about. But even beginning to think of those, there’s so many options, right, that people have to consider. We haven’t even yet talked about the refinance on the private side. So the million-dollar question is, how do you when working with an individual, how do you help them determine which strategy is going to be the best one for their personal situation?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: I am going to get a little bit of heck for saying, it depends. So that’s our famous standard statement in the financial planning industry. But it really does. I mean, we can’t undervalue the role of a budget and the mindset of our borrower in determining the strategy. But we also are looking at opportunity cost as well. So in a prior podcast, Tim Church had alluded to that. He was saying he and his wife were thrilled to pay off the debt, but then he had some thoughts like, what if? and wasn’t sure he had taken the best path to being debt-free. So being debt-free in general is a great outcome. But then we start asking the questions, what if a borrower with $120,000 salary and $200,000 in federal debt, what if they could make payments in income-driven repayment, qualify for a non-PSLF forgiveness, save for the tax bill at the end — which by the way, has also been discussed as something that maybe this administration will do away with.

Tim Ulbrich: Correct.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Yeah, what if they could increase their savings and pay off credit card debt and have a pretty decent nest egg in 20 years? So then we start thinking like, well, what really is the best strategy for clients? And again, it is very individual. With private loans, the decision points are just so much more, you know, easily digestible: lower interest rate, highest affordable payment, get it done. With the federal loans, we see a lot more nuances and they become more difficult to sort through. When you’re on track for forgiveness, there’s no benefit to making extra payments, it’s hard to see the balance remain the same or even increase. It goes against the pull we feel to get rid of the debt as quickly as possible. But we really do need to look at what is the best overall picture for a client to have both now and down the road as they make these decisions.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that’s a good segue, you know, Kelly, when you mentioned in the private system, the decision points are much easier. You’re evaluating interest rates, trying to get the lowest interest rates, highest affordable payment, and you get done. And so I think that really warrants the discussion of am I pursuing forgiveness or not? Because if you think about this as a decision tree, if I make that decision that PSLF or non-PSLF forgiveness is in play, then obviously you’re staying in the federal system. If not, well, now we’re going to begin to evaluate private options in terms of refinance. Let’s talk about forgiveness, specifically PSLF for a moment. What makes this strategy appealing? And we’ve talked about it before of course before on the show of some of the logistics and some of the potential concerns, so what makes it appealing? And should pharmacists take advantage of it? Or is there a time when someone should steer clear of it?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely. Great question. I mean, PSLF is a good option for borrowers who are working in nonprofit sector with Adjusted Gross Income and payment protections where it looks like there will be an amount to be forgiven at the end. So they’re working towards those 120 payments, but it is a process. You know, we talk about that in our student loan analysis, just the paperwork, and it is a very specific process. Borrowers who have an Adjusted Gross Income that will significantly increase over time or an overall amount of debt where very little will be forgiven, it may not be ideal. So of course, we say for those who are looking for the program or thinking about being in that program, if you are thinking about going into for-profit at some point, you should proceed with caution. Again, the balance of the loan will likely not decrease in PSLF, so after five years of nonprofit work, if you decide to switch to for-profit, you’re potentially looking at a similar student loan debt liability even though five years have passed. Unfortunately, there’s no half credit, you know, for half the payments. So you know, if you’re thinking about that, it may not be the ideal route to go.

Tim Ulbrich: Great point. Worth reiterating. There is no half credit for half the payments. So important as people think about choosing that option. So Kelly, then what about non-forgiveness options, a.k.a paying it back. What are the options that are here?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely, going old school. Yes. What if we just paid them back? So for borrowers with federal loans, you know, they’re really weighing that lowest interest rate versus the federal loan protections. So this year — often in the past, when we talked about the federal loan protections, it was this idea just kind of floating out there. But this year, we see exactly what that means to have some of those protections. So we’ve seen a couple different things going on, but if borrowers were financially able to still make payments or increase payments this past year, they maybe should consider refinance in the future. So the current 0% rate is literally impossible to beat at the moment, right? So but I do feel like there’s a little bit of a growing thought of like FOMO, the Fear of Missing Out. Like I’ve got 0% now with federal, but I know private lenders, you know, are maybe in the 2-3% range. I don’t want to miss that refinance rate when the 0% is done. But again, a lot of planning is finding that unique balance between what we know, what we anticipate in the future, and then what we’re willing to do to accomplish our goals. So everything is a tradeoff for sure.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as you mentioned early on, we’re coming up at the time we release this episode, we might even have more information at that time, but obviously we expect some announcement that would come out that would give us an indication on if that’s going to be extended in terms of the 0% rate and if so, for how long. And that will give us an important piece of information in the planning process. And to that point, you know, since the CARES Act was established and the administrative forbearance was extended twice, I think many pharmacists — as you’ve alluded to here briefly — have been wondering if they should or shouldn’t refinance their loans. And I think this warrants some brief discussion on refinancing, again, as we use this time period to really take a close look at our repayment options and plan. So just remind our community, what is refinancing? And what ultimately is the goal when somebody refinances loans?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: So yeah, refinancing is a very — what I like to say a private loan term because we’re talking about moving from a federal loan to a private loan. And it is a one-way transaction. So once you’ve made the decision to go from federal to private, that’s it. You can’t move back to the federal loan. It’s also a reference point for moving from one private loan to another. So if you have a private loan and you want to refinance, you’re moving into another private loan, the purpose in my opinion is always related to improving your interest rate or the term of the loan. Maybe it’s to remove a cosigner. But the purpose of that refinance is nearly always a better interest rate and maybe you’re decreasing the amount of time that you’re paying the loan.

Tim Ulbrich: And so overall, just given the time that we’re in, what’s your take on refinancing? Is it something that should or shouldn’t be done? When is it OK to start refinance again? And of course, I need to say — although it should be assumed — that of course this is an individual both consideration and determination. But generally, how are you considering refinancing in the moment?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Sure. I mean, as you said, it is a very individual, unique decision to be made. And I use the example, if a borrower has a $120,000 salary and $150,000 in federal loans, they’re likely not on a trajectory to have any debt forgiven. So then it makes sense to consider a refinance. But as you mentioned earlier in the intro, we really are in a unique environment at present. So if, you know, if by the end of January, I learn that I have 0% interest extended for six more months and that $10,000 forgiveness amount is still floating out there, I think I need to continue in the federal program and I watch the interest rates in the private sector. Ideally, our borrowers are making payments to lower the principle balance to take full advantage of that 0%. So again, if you’re in PSLF or non-PSLF forgiveness, making those payments is not really a great strategy. But if you are just paying down the debt, you know, I’d love to see our borrowers be in a position to take advantage of that 0% and like I said, keeping an eye on those interest rates in the private sector.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and one of the things, Kelly, that I have an eye out for is I think given the circumstances that those who had already refinanced before the CARES Act, as they all know too well and we know were left out of the administrative forbearance because there wasn’t any protections or benefits that those were in the private system, I wonder if that’s going to have people second-guessing refinancing as a move going forward, even if through the analysis and mathematically it’s the better move to make. And so that takes me to the question of what considerations should people be thinking about before refinancing their loans and what differences there are between the federal and the private system and what they may or may not be giving up.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: So right, outside of those working towards any forgiveness, I think the biggest consideration is that federal protection, which we’ve seen highlighted this year and what that impact could be. You know, there is a lack of flexibility with borrowers in the private sector where they don’t have the same income-driven repayment options. So if you have a job loss, you know, it can be a little bit different of a process to navigate that. Some of the private sector companies have gotten better with that. Really, if you’re looking at interest rates too, which is a big consideration, you know, if I can reduce my interest rate from like 4.8% to 2.8% on a $200,000 loan debt, you can save some money for sure. So I use the example, in five years, you could save $10,000 in interest. Over 20 years, it’s $30,000. So interest is a major consideration. But again, we’re always looking to see what really is the best strategy. I like the 0%. I like making a dent in my principle and any accrued interest if I’m not working for forgiveness. And then I’m still, like I said before, keeping an eye on those private interest rates to see how their movement is going. And of course, we’re going to keep updating folks on this topic because we know it’s super important.

Tim Ulbrich: Great insights, Kelly. And I think as we have spent the better part of 20 minutes or more really zooming in on student loans, I feel the need to zoom out. One of the things that I say often on this show and to our prospective clients and to people in the community is you can’t just look at one part of your financial plan in a silo. And this includes analyzing your student loans and determining a plan to pay them off. So what else do folks need to consider? What else do they need to weigh and keep in mind when deciding what their game plan is going to be?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Yeah, Tim, you are absolutely right. I mean, the past several months have been a really unique opportunity to have a bird’s eye view of an individual student loan debt burden, not counting those working towards forgiveness and what they were able to accomplish in the past several months. So we have seen the following or some combination of the following: We have borrowers who are in a financial place to take full advantage of that 0% and they continued to make payments, resulting in a bigger impact on principle. But we’ve also seen folks who have used this time to make payments on things that were still accruing interest, which is great too. So they have paid down other debts. But then we also have situations where borrowers who have had employment challenges, are struggling financially, and they could not do either. So this helps give us a really clear idea of what a borrower might be able to accomplish in 2021 and if a refinance is viable. So we’re still looking at employment status and security. You know, we still have folks who have changes in their job and income and need to navigate through that. What other debt do they have? What is cash flow looking like? And then what are other financial priorities? I can’t say enough too, like borrower behavior and perspective on the loans is a major — a major component. You know, if someone’s really motivated, then we’re having those conversations to really look at things and say, what can we accomplish? But again, these are all pieces. We can’t look at one piece of the financial plan without looking at others.

Tim Ulbrich: I’m so glad, Kelly, you mentioned borrower behavior and perspective. We often say it’s the math plus how you feel about the debt, right? You’ve got to consider the numbers and look at the options and make sure you understand what would be coming out of pocket, what you’d be paying each month, how much interest you’d be paying, what would be forgiven. But you have to also layer on top of that, you know, how do you feel about the debt? How does your significant other or spouse feel about the debt? And how might that or might it not impact the direction that you take with your repayment plan? And so as we wrap up here, and you’ve provided incredible insights and obviously are well versed in this topic, it dawns on me that there are just as we said at the beginning, so many individual considerations, so many nuances to student loans, unfortunately a system probably more complicated than it needs to be. But when we’re dealing with six figures of student loan debt or more, many of our clients are north of $150,000-200,000, we know that the median indebtedness for today’s graduate is now north of $170,000, and so the decision between Path A, B, C and keep going on can be the difference easily of tens of thousands of dollars. And so we need to invest the time to understand these options, we need to invest the time to evaluate what those options are and to feel good about choosing the best path forward that is that for one situation, which takes me to our student loan analysis, which is a service I mentioned at the front end of this episode of something that we offer at YFP. It’s a one-on-one service intended to help folks really understand, evaluate, determine their best repayment option going forward. But what we haven’t talked about before on the show, Kelly, is what folks can expect through that service if they were to sign up. So talk to us about what you do as you work with a client through a student loan analysis and ultimately what the deliverable of that is.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Yeah, absolutely. And I view this as a next step from all the knowledge that we’re acquiring in podcasts and reading our book and becoming more knowledgeable and of course, you know, recognizing that this is a significant issue. Then we’re looking at a very personalized, like you said, one-on-one. We’re doing the inventory of the loans, we’re going to provide an analysis with recommendations for next steps. Part of that process looks at payment amounts and projections, whether a consolidation or refinance makes sense. We ask clients to provide a budget amount so that they can give some input into how much they can afford to put towards this effort. I think one of the best things about this is it really gives clients a clear estimate of what to expect. But in an awesome way, it gives people a lot of confidence. Like having a plan where they can put it into action, you know, put these pieces of the puzzle in place, and then start focusing on some other aspects of their financial goals, I hear a lot of reaction like, reduces stress, increases confidence, just feeling good that there’s a plan. And you know, maybe down the road, you need to revisit the plan. But there’s something in place to get you started.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, absolutely. And what I sense and hear from folks often, Kelly — and I’m sure you do even more than I — is that just having — even if the debt number isn’t going to move, right, at least for the short term, you know, $200,000 of debt is $200,000 of debt. But it’s a different feeling when you have momentum and peace of mind knowing that you’ve evaluated the options, you’ve applied them to your personal situation, and you feel confidently in the plan, in the plan that you’re pursuing going forward and so that you can begin to focus on other financial goals. So I think it’s an important point to mention not to underestimate the peace of mind that can come with this as well. So for those that are interested, you can schedule your student loan analysis by visiting YourFinancialPharmacist.com/studentloananalysis, all one word. Don’t wait as I think now, as we’ve been talking through the show, is the perfect time to get your loan repayment plan in place or to get a second opinion on a strategy that you’re currently utilizing. And for a limited time, we’re going to be sending a copy of our three YFP-published books. That would be “Seven Figure Pharmacist,” “A Pharmacist’s Guide to Conquering Student Loans,” and “Baker’s Dirty Dozen: Principles for financial independence” to anyone that signs up and purchases a student loan analysis by the end of January. So we want to get the tools and resources in your hands, not only to attack student loans but also to continue to progress with your financial plan in 2021. So again, YourFinancialPharmacist/studentloananalysis. You can purchase the analysis there, sign up for a time right away with Kelly to get that going. And as always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. We appreciate you joining us, and we hope you have a great rest of your week.

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