December 2021 – Your Financial Pharmacist

YFP 236: Gen X Pharmacists: Financial Challenges and Money Strategies

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Gen X Pharmacists: Financial Challenges and Money Strategies

On today’s episode, sponsored by Thoughtful Wills, Tim Baker talks through the unique financial needs and considerations of Generation X.

Episode Summary

Often referred to as the sandwich generation, Gen X is a big group of people that’s often set on the sidelines when compared to Gen Y, the millennial generation, and baby boomers. Financial planning can be hard enough by itself, but supporting your young (or not-so-young) children often at the same time as aging parents, all while trying to save for retirement, creates a unique strain on finances that requires some specific financial planning! Today on the YFP Podcast, Tim Ulbrich is here with YFP co-founder, co-owner, and director of financial planning, Tim Baker, to talk through the financial needs and considerations of our Generation X pharmacy colleagues who are well beyond the new practitioner phase, but perhaps not yet at that traditional retirement age. We talk through why this generation has some unique financial challenges and touch on how to tackle the pessimism and inertia that often comes with changing or leaving your financial planning too late. We discuss the challenges this generation face, how their debt position and accrued retirement savings compare to other generations, and some strategies to chart a successful path to independence and stability, despite the tough economic hand dealt in their lifetimes. This episode may focus on a specific age group, but all listeners will hear valuable advice and insights that would benefit anyone!

Key Points From This Episode

An introduction to today’s topic of Gen X; the sandwich generation.
How Gen Xers are often providing for their parents, plus a young child or a child over 18.
How these financial expectations are often overlooked or pushed to the side.
We talk about average incomes, the rising cost of education, and what their debt load is.
The impact of the ups and downs in the last few years on their financial mindsets.
How Gen X wants stability but might not have the financial plan or means to get it.
You can take out education loans for your kids, you can’t get retirement loans.
Hear how Tim Baker follows the one-third plan and a reminder of what that is.
Relying on the act of planning, versus having a plan.
Some important questions Gen Xers can ask themselves to get financially stable.
Making sure you’re not on autopilot, particularly in your peak earning years.
Tackling the fear and inertia of having left it so late in life to start saving and planning.
Having empathy for Gen X needing different priorities from the previous generation.
That Gen X really wasn’t dealt a great hand economically, but the problems are fixable.
Reigniting the vision and finding the motivation to do things differently.
Speaking about the lack of confidence in social security for future retirement.
Tim shares a great exercise you can do to check your retirement age and benefits!
We discuss the shifting dynamics of generations and the transfer of wealth.
Some parting words of encouragement from us here at the YFP team!

Highlights

“[Gen X] is a generation that probably has some of the most important, or probably the most urgent needs in terms of their finances and financial planning.” — Tim Baker, CFP [0:04:34]

“39% feel of Gen Xers feel that they’ll never have as secure a financial life as their parents’ generation. As parents, you always want your kids to have a better upbringing.” — Tim Baker, CFP [0:09:26]

“What can you do for your kids? What do you want to do for your kids in terms of an education plan? At the end of the day, your retirement should take precedence, because you can’t take retirement loans. You can take education loans.” — Tim Baker, CFP [0:15:17]

“If I’m a Gen Xer and I’m 50, and I know that I have a decade left if I want to retire by 60, you can do a lot in 10 years. You can.” — Tim Baker, CFP [0:25:29]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I had a chance to sit down with YFP co-founder, co-owner and director of financial planning, Tim Baker, to talk through the financial needs and considerations of Generation X; those born between the mid-60s and early 80s, falling between the baby boomers and the millennials. That would be our pharmacy colleagues well beyond the new practitioner phase, but perhaps not yet at that traditional retirement age.

Whether you are a student pharmacist, or a new practitioner anticipating some of the financial opportunities and challenges that may face you in the future, or you’re a Gen X pharmacist listening, my hope is that you’ll have something to take away and apply to your own personal situation.

On the show, Tim Baker and I talked through why this generation has some unique financial challenges, and is often referred to as the sandwich generation. We discuss the challenge this generation faces and the balance taking care of themselves, their children, perhaps, as well as their parents, how their debt position and accrued retirement savings compares to other generations, as well as some strategies for a Gen X pharmacist to chart a successful path boards, despite some of those challenges that they may be facing.

As we wrap up another year of the show and are knee-deep into the planning for 2022, I want to say thank you to the YFP community for entrusting us with your time, by listening to the show. We don’t take for granted your support and encouragement of the work that we’re doing at YFP, to help pharmacists on their path towards achieving financial freedom.

Also, a big shout out to YFP members Caitlin Boyle and Rose Mercado for the engine behind making them YFP podcasts a reality each week. Caitlin and Rose, your contributions to the team and the YFP community are truly appreciated. Okay, let’s hear it from today’s sponsor, and then we’ll jump into my conversation with Tim Baker.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[00:02:00] TU: This week’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast is sponsored by Thoughtful Wills. Let’s take a minute to hear from Co-Founder, Nathan.

[00:02:08] NK: My name is Nathan Kavlee, and I’m one of the founders of Thoughtful Wills. Our law firm spends a lot of time thinking about the process of estate planning. There’s no way we can get around the yuck of death. Instead, we focus on being lawyers that you’ll actually enjoy working with. We pride ourselves on being approachable. Then, we take the extra time to draft documents that are actually understandable. Then we pair that with technology to make the process cheaper and more convenient. Please visit our website thoughtfulwills.com/yfp and poke around. Then book a meeting with us, please. We are genuinely excited to chat with you.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:46] TU: Tim, excited to have you back in the mic.

[00:02:48] TB: Yeah. Good to be back for a full episode, Tim. How’s it going?

[00:02:52] TU: It is going. We are just a couple days away from the New Year, and hard to believe that we’ve had another year of the podcast, another year of the growth of the YFP community, growth of the team at YFP, and so much to be grateful for as we roll the calendar into 2022, and excited for what lies ahead as well.

[00:03:13] TB: Yeah. It’s been a year of change, I think, with everything that’s going on. I think, all for the good. I’m excited for what 2022 brings in. Hopefully, we can continue to crawl out of this pandemic, and we don’t have too many more of the variants that are shutting things down. I’m excited for what’s ahead, though.

[00:03:33] TU: We’re going to start to dig into this topic, one that we haven’t covered in great detail before. Today, we’re talking about the financial needs and considerations of Gen X pharmacists. I think, it’s worth noting that we’re talking about generations, we’re obviously talking in general generality and general form. Certainly, unique situations are going to apply here. Tell us a little bit more about why we want to delve more into this this topic on the podcast as we look at financial needs and considerations of Gen X?

[00:04:02] TB: Yeah. I think, just like the generation, it’s kind of like the forgotten middle child. When we’re talking about Gen X, we’re talking about a group of about 65 million people that are born between 1965 and 1980. The youngest is in their early 40s, turned 41 this year, and then the oldest being in their mid-50s, turning 56 this year. It’s a big group of people that it’s often set on the sidelines when compared to Gen Y and the millennial generation, or baby boomers.

I think, it’s a generation that probably has some of the most important, or somewhat, probably the most urgent need in terms of their finances and financial planning. This generation, it’s called the latchkey generation. A lot of kids after school would go to this latchkey programs. I’ve also heard him them called, Oregon Trail generation, the Trapper Keeper generation. I have a personal affinity.

[00:04:59] TU: Oregon Trail. It’s good.

[00:05:00] TB: Yeah. I’m technically part of the Gen Y. I’m an I’m an older Gen Y-millennial, born in ’82. Well, my brother was born 80, so he’s a young Gen Xer at the end of ’80. I see both, I feel I fit in between both generations, and I see both sides of it. It’s also often called the sandwich generation, which really entails a Gen Xer taking care of not only themselves, but their kids that are coming of age, but also aging parents. 47% [inaudible 00:05:33], 47% of adults in their 40s and 50s have a parent over age 65, and are either raising a young child, or providing financial support to a young child over 18.

You can imagine, Tim. Before I had kids, I’m like, “Man, I can barely take care of myself. How can I take care of another human being?” That’s what’s going on here as their adult, and as they got to take care of themselves, and then they have to basically take care of parents, and then their kids that are coming of age. It’s a daunting task. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of – I feel like, there’s a lot of negativity and cynicism, not just even around the coverage of Gen X, but even inside of Gen X, as you see some of the things that they experience over time. It’s something that I think needs to be talked about more, because I feel all of the press, all of the language is either for baby boomers, or this Gen Y generation, baby boomers – Gen X are just left on the side.

[00:06:36] TU: It’s really true. It’s something that I’ve observed, since we’re prepping for this episode, is when you hear generational news that’s out there, the millennials get a lot of love. Gen Z gets a lot of attention, baby boomers. This concept of a sandwich generation, a generation that’s often overlooked but has some significant things that they’re facing financially. Hopefully, some things that we can turn into opportunities may get overlooked in terms of the stress and the burden that that group is carrying.

You’ve laid the foundation, Tim, in terms of Gen X. So, people born approximately 1965 to 1980. We’re looking at early 40s to mid-50s, known as the sandwich generation, and between millennials and baby boomers. That concept of being caught between taking care of their children, as well as aging parents.

I just talked with a prospective client earlier this week, young family, two kids under the age of four, going through their own student loan, debt repayment scenario, trying to get investing off the ground, and get some early momentum there. Then also, the prospect of potentially having to take care of their elderly parents in the near future. That’s weighty, right? I think, you and I would both argue from individual experiences, as well as the pharmacists that we talk with all across the country, that financial planning can be hard enough in and of itself, without having to think about an additional burden that might be placed upon something like, having to take care for elderly parents.

[00:07:58] TB: Yeah. I think, this is the start of many sandwich generations, unfortunately. Maybe not unfortunately, but I know, a lot of our Gen Y clients are, they have a bucket of money that’s just like, “Hey, my parents either got me here because they immigrated here.” Or, that’s what our culture says, “My job is to is to make money and take care. I am my parents’ retirement plan.” That’s not just related to Gen X, I think, that’s going to be a common theme in Gen Y and Gen Z.

I think, the difference is that the year – it’s upon us already for Gen X. They’re already doing it. Probably, haven’t really planned for it. The good part about Gen X is that they’re approaching their peak earning years. On average, they make more money. I think, I think the average household income was something like, in the $130,000s or something like that. On average, they make a lot more than baby boomers who are winding down, or they’re already retired. Then Gen Ys are still – and we know in pharmacy, it’s a little bit different.

Average net worth for – if you’re if you’re clocking this average net worth, I think I saw a number out there, it was about a $168,000. That’s not a lot, especially if you’re thinking you only have 10, or 20 years left to work, if you’re going to retire in your 60s, that type of thing. I think, the one thing that came out to me when I was looking at this was, 39% feel of Gen Xers feel that they’ll never have a secure as a financial life as their parents’ generation. Which, and that’s one thing is like, as parents, you always want your kids to have a better upbringing.

I think, the other thing that is interesting about Gen X, as you’re looking at the data, and just some of the editorial comments, they are sandwich in terms of – they have a lot of the consumerism that baby boomers had. It was like, Gen X spends more than any other generation in terms of consumer goods, but they also got hit with the rising cost of education. Now not to the degree where pharmacists are coming out today. We have charts where the income was pretty close to what the debt levels are for a PharmD, and then the PharmD debt just raced by the income.

I think, to a lesser degree that the debt, and obviously, they’ve had years, a decade, or more of paying, 15 years of paying off student loans. I think, the biggest portion of what they’re seeing in terms of debt loads are coming in the form of mortgages, credit cards, auto loans. But also, still having those student loans.

Unfortunately, Tim, we see a lot of pharmacists that are in this generation that haven’t put that big of a dent into their student loans at all, because of I think, the construct of “Hey, you just pay the least amount and you drag it on forever.” Unfortunately, you’re left with a large sum, even 10, 15 years into your career, 20 years of your career, unfortunately.

[00:11:07] TU: Tim, one of the things I was thinking about recently, I graduated in 08, was that – 13 years ago or so, that was shortly after the requirement to the PharmD. This group, most of them, unless they went back and got – PharmD would have been in the BS period, before the PharmD was required. One of the things I’ve been reflecting upon is that I graduated in 08, obviously, the recession of 08 was what it was. I was in residency making $31,000 and didn’t have a whole lot of focus, or attention on savings. I didn’t really feel that very much, even though I observed it and lived in it.

All I know, is what has been a pretty wild market ever since then, that’s only been on the up and up overall, obviously, outside of some dips and so forth in between. I often think like, “Man, what kind of overconfidence has that led?” Potentially, not only my situation, but others that are in that window that have graduated in the last 13 years and have not experienced a significant downturn and has had that real impact, where you’ve accumulated savings, and you’re like, “Oh, my gosh. This is real.” I see the dip.

We look at this generation, they’ve been through the dot-com bubble. They’ve been through the 08 financial crisis, and they’ve been through what has been the wild, last couple years on the market, since the beginning of the pandemic, in terms of the ups and downs, and even within a given week, ups and downs. What impact do you suspect that has had in terms of their approach to savings and investments?

[00:12:35] TB: Yeah. I think, it’s had a great impact. I think, it was often documented that a lot of Gen Xers were very, very much educated, but underemployed, especially dot-com. Talk about swings of wealth in markets in dotcom. Then, the subprime mortgage crisis. I think, it’s led to a lot of asceticism, and a lot of the – some of the rhetoric that you see.

I guess, to bring my point full circle, what I was trying to compare to go back to that real quick. Baby boomers, no student loan issues there, but spent and had mortgages and things, car loans and things like that, credit card debt. I think, notoriously not having been great about saving for retirement, and I think, so security’s going to definitely help them. I think, Gen Y have been more adverse to home buying and taking on a big mortgage, and less consumer debt.

Whereas that, with Gen X, you’re seeing the ugly on both sides. You’re seeing the student loans, but you’re also seeing some of the other – that other debt it’s piled on. I think, with regard to investments, I think, that I saw a stat that Gen Xers, they’re thinking, “Yeah, we probably should be –” I think, the number was like, “We’ve probably should be saving 11%.” It’s probably closer to 20%, where they’re at in their career, if you count all of the things that you should be putting in to retirement. I think on average, they’re saving about 9%.

I think, some of the things that you’re seeing that baby boomers are working more into retirement and they don’t have confidence in their money lasting, I think, you’re going to see that compound with Gen X, unfortunately. I think, one of the things that often will buoy the Gen Xers is, as that wealth generation or wealth transfer happens, so baby boomers dying off, you’re going to start to see windfalls that are going to fix some of the ills, unfortunately, that happen.

It’s having a plan for that, and having a plan for that windfall. Gen X wants stability, but they’re not necessarily doing a lot to help their financial future. I think, what they’re just trying to do is get through the day in terms of like, “Hey, I have to take care of myself, my parents.” Then, I’m also looking at, and the whole – we can have a whole other discussion just about education and sending your kids to college, and not experience – Sometimes that, your own experience can color that for your kid. You have some people that are like, “I never want my kids to have an ounce of student loans.”

Or some people would say like, “Hey, I had to deal with it. They have to, too.” There’s no right or wrong answer, but it’s really cutting through that and understanding, what can you do for your kids? What do you want to do for your kids in terms of education plan? At the end of the day, your retirement should take precedence, because you can’t take retirement loans. You can take education loans, and hopefully, they start to figure out how to make this a little bit better, which again, that doesn’t necessarily help. It might help our kids, Tim, in the future, but it’s not going to help Gen Xers whose kids are in college, or approaching that age right now.

[00:15:43] TU: Yeah. Jess and I were just talking about that the other night, of really fighting against some of that gut and emotional reaction of wanting to over – potentially, over-contribute on the college side at the expense of other things, because of the pain we felt in our own journey, and how front and center that is.

[00:15:58] TB: Well, and I just got an email from Ohio529. They’re like, “Hey, if you put this much in, you can max out your $4,000.” Yeah. I’m like, “All right, well, we have this plan” but I’m torn to say like, “Okay. How can I get that just for the tax benefit?” Again, I think, people sometimes do things for the good of the taxes, or at the detriment of their financial plan. I mean, it’s never a bad thing to, I think, save for the future expense that hopefully will be there in the form of college.

At the same time, I had to take a step back and say, well, this is not really what Shane and I talked about in terms of our – what we want to do. And we follow that that one-third plan, which I think we’ve outlined in previous episodes of, one-third is going to come from our – the 529s that we’re saving. One-third is going to come from hopefully, that’s something I can cashflow, as our kids are in college. That present income in the future, if that makes sense. Then one-third from hopefully, scholarships, grants, and then last but not least, loan.

That’s ours. Again, at the end of the day, we’re making sure that we’re trying to fill that retirement bucket, because we want options. We went options as we approach retirement to say, “Okay, we want to work until this, or not have to work, or whatever.” To me, that’s something that the Gen X generation is also dealing with. I think to, again, it’s more into a heightened degree. One, because I think resources are scarce. You’re just dividing up between many more people, because typically, bigger households, and then we talked about again, taking care of parents and things like that. Yeah, I mean, it goes back to relying on the act of planning, versus having a plan. I think, that’s definitely something that Gen Xers should look to do if they’re grappling with all these different issues.

[00:17:53] TU: Yeah. I think, as we’ve talked about many times on the show, and something I know, we both worked through personally, and I sent it in the individuals that we talked to that are considering coming onboard as clients of YFP Planning. Sometimes there’s just so much emotional stress that we carry around related to financial planning, because of all of these things that are swirling in our mind.

We’ve talked about, many of them here is really, to Gen X in terms of debt that might be hanging around, thinking about the college for kids, or grandkids, caring for elderly parents might behind on retirement. Should I be thinking about diversifying other revenue streams? The list goes on and on. So much value from my perspective of the planning process, and what you’ve done, even with Jess and I is, “Let’s get all of these out of our head, onto paper. Let’s talk through them, let’s prioritize them, let’s beat them up. Think about how they fit in with the bigger vision of the plan and where we’re trying to go, what we’re going to try to do. Even if those numbers don’t change drastically tomorrow, we’ll get there over time.” Having that plan just provides an incredible amount, I think, of confidence, and hopefully, at some level, some peace as well.

[00:18:59] TB: Yeah. The plan touches so many things. We touched briefly on the investment retirement stuff. You could talk about just that whole thing for Gen Xers. It’s like, okay, what does retirement look like? Is it early? Do we have dollars that we can access, if it is early retirement? If it’s not, what’s the plan for that? Is the asset allocation correct? Are you working with an advisor and paying too much in fees? What are they actually doing for you? We’ve got a lot of clients where it’s like, when the comparison of what we do at YFP, which versus what an advisor somewhere else would do. It’s a different offering.

Again, I think, that the nice thing about Gen X is that they’re not shut out of the game of financial services, like Gen Y. Because Gen X, at least has investable assets that can be managed, and that’s typically what advisors look for. If you have negative wealth and no money to invest, most advisors will say, “I can’t help you.” Gen X doesn’t have that, and so you have that problem, because if they’ve changed careers that they’ve accumulated money in their IRAs over time, they do get attention. Is it the right attention, is what I would I would argue?

The other thing that we haven’t talked about, that’s about this is, is the protection stuff or the financial plan. Over time, things change. Are your life and disability safe? What are the deductibles? Do you need umbrella policy? We could probably go back to the episode that we have Cameron Huddleston on, which is, Mom and Dad, We Need to Talk.” Not just having a state document for you and a state plan for you, but your parents.

It was also, it could be where you are to a point, as a Gen Xer, where there is more that you can potentially give and maybe, there’s charitable intentions and could be a lot of – sometimes we see Gen Xers that have worked some of these things, it’s that big-pot-of-money syndrome. It’s like, “I have $80,000. I have money in my investments. I have $80,000 in savings account.” Okay, what’s this money for? What are we earmarking it for?

Then, if we’re expecting inheritance, what’s that going to be used for? Have we reviewed our emergency fund lately? There’s so many things here that, I think, Gen X, especially as they proceed through and they’re approaching their peak years of earnings, just need to make sure that they’re not on – I hear autopilot all the time when it comes to a financial plan. There’s typically, tons of things to look at, and do and plan for, and assess. As you’re taking care of parents and sending kids to college, and the one thing we haven’t talked about is taxes, and what that looks like, there’s just a lot – there’s just a lot on the plate.

To me, it just goes back to the idea of sitting down, and building out a plan, but then engaging in the act of planning. As the years go on, and you’re in this last decade, or two of earning, so you can set yourself up for the best retirement that you can.

[00:22:02] TU: Two resources, Tim, I want to point folks to that build on some of what we’ve been talking about here. You mentioned that interview with Cameron Huddleston, who wrote Mom and Dad, We Need to Talk. Great conversation I had with her about how to effectively talk with your parents about their finances. So many good takeaways that I’ve been able to apply in my situation. That was episode 108. We’ll link to that in the show notes.

Then the second thing, we’ve been talking a little bit about kids’ college education, and that was episode 195, where we talked about how to save for your child’s education. That highlights some of what you were sharing in the “thirds” approach. Tim, one of the things I want to ask you about is, I suspect many in Gen X, you’ve given some data here about folks that may not be on track “statistically” or what they think they should be in terms of retirement savings. There’s probably that lingering feeling of like, I’m behind. I’m also maybe trying to pay off some student loan debt, but I’ve got all these other competing expenses that are taking on some of the priority as well.

The question here relates to how to get past that inertia of feeling behind. The best time to invest would have been 20 years ago. The next best time is right now. How do you begin to coach folks through not having that mindset, or approach of like, “Well, at this point I haven’t done it. Therefore, I’m not going to be able to get to that goal anyways.”

[00:23:20] TB: Yeah. I think, I equate it to for some people, it’s like going to the doctor. You don’t want to go to the doctor and talking about, like if you smoke, or if you’re overweight, or things like that. You have this block that, that you know that the answer is bad. There’s this feeling of being judged. I think, from the professional standpoint, we’ve seen it. We’ve seen a lot of things. Just like, doctors have seen it all. It’s not about that. It’s just about changing course, and saying, “Okay, this is what happened, or this is what’s happening. How can we make this better? How can we proceed?”

The thing that, and I hear this all the time, even from clients that we have that are younger, that are in their 20s. I hear throughout all the generations. Really, it’s like, I’m never going to be able to retire. I’m always going to be working. I think for Gen X in particular, because of some of the downfalls in the market, and the investment in education, being under employed, at least from the beginning, that is that pessimism. There was a study by, I think, it was T. Rowe Price that said, 12% of Gen Xers say that they will retire before age 60. Compared to 26% of millennials.

Millennials are more optimistic about that. I guess, to bring it back in terms of where to start, my belief in financial planning is very – it’s very absolute. Meaning, I think, if you engage with a professional, an objective third-party that has your best interests in mind and is really rooting for you to achieve the goals that you want, I think if you do that for years, we have people that really do well with their financial planning in a span of a year, or two, or even three. If you can imagine stacking a deck – If I’m a Gen Xer and I’m 50, and I know that I have a decade left if I want to retire by 60, you can do a lot in 10 years. You can.

If you’re a younger Gen Xer, if you’re 41, if you’re my brother’s age, 1980, and you have say, 20 years, or even 25 years, there’s just so much that you can do in 20 years. If you’re stacking intentional years of working on your financial plan, and thinking about it and revising your goals, and making adjustments and protecting yourself and having those conversations of like, “Hey, is this what I really want? Am I on track?”

There’s this feeling. I think, sometimes it happens with our clients, even just through the first meeting, where they just look at and they can see their balance sheet and all of their things. Then even more so, the second meeting, we’re actually talking about what are their goals, what is a wealthy life for you? Just to have that exercise, to go through that exercise, I think, is empowering. Then it’s like, “All right, let’s get to work and actually get into the financial plan.”

I look at as a very much a glass half full. Whereas, I think, a lot of people, it’s a glass half empty. We know that inertia is a thing. You’re more likely to do what you’re doing currently, than to take the leap to do something different. I think, to answer your question that you originally answered, I think it’s – You have to get over that, because at the end of the day, you’re going to have to get over it, eventually. Whether it’s in your 40s, or if you’re in your 60s, where you have to actually plan to say, “Okay, can I shut this income stream off, that is my livelihood?”

Because eventually, you can’t do the work as a pharmacist in your – It’s really hard to do. It’s a demanding profession. To me, it has to come sooner, or later. Then as a planner, I would advocate sooner. I would just think of it from a – I’m just thinking of it from a patient’s perspective. I’m sure, lots of pharmacists work with patients, which have those anxieties. If you approach it as well, they’ve probably seen it all, which we have, then just have solace in that that you’re not going to be judged, or it’s more about moving forward from here than anything. That’s the best I can – advice I can give.

I know, I get it. I understand. No one wants to be judged, or a lot – sometimes we double down, because pharmacists are your doctors, you’re educated. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re a doctor of money, right? We put that on ourselves, or PharmD’s put that on themselves that they should know better, or things like that. I think, that’s crap, to be honest. I think, Gen X, again, you were dealt a not-great hand, because you’re in that sandwich, where baby boomers, my parents are baby boomers, they’re like, “Buy a house. Don’t have credit card debt.”

I didn’t necessarily want to buy a house right away. That was what you did. You got the best education. You would pay whatever you could to get the best job. You buy a house and you have kids, and that’s it. That wasn’t for me. I feel like, Gen Xers were still put in that. They had that appetite for the non-student loan debt, but then, they also had the student loan debt that baby boomers didn’t experience.

That’s the thing that I have to – I would say, it’s cool. That’s where you’re at in terms of the run of things. I think, millennials learn from baby boomers and Gen X, and more like, “I don’t want to rush into marriage, or a house, or things like that. I want to figure this out first.” You had a little bit more, I think, leeway even than Gen Xers did, because Gen Xers, again, because of all the different recessions and things like that.

I think, that’s where, and even things like forgiveness. Gen Xers are probably looking at forgiveness and they’re seeing all these things come off the board here, all these loans. PSLF and things like that.

[00:29:46] TU: I wish. I wish.

[00:29:49] TB: That would have been nice. Because back in my day, shake their cane. Back in my day, this is how – I had to walk uphill to school and the stone -those are some of the things that you weren’t afforded those, because I think, it was President George W. Bush that put that into effect back in the early 2000s. That’s the thing, Tim, is it’s not a great hand. I think, at the end of the day, it’s what you make of it going forward. Again, the nice thing about Gen X is that a lot of these problems, I think, are fixable, because there’s still time. There’s still time. They’re approaching, peeking earning years, like I said. Again, it’s more of the process of planning and making sure that what they’re doing is what they want to do.

[00:30:32] TU: Yeah, the thought that comes, too, Tim, is it’s a great opportunity to re-ignite the vision. I think that, I’m thinking about all the issues we’re talking about that are getting thrown at Gen X. It’s fair that you might feel beaten down and you feel like, “Man, I’m behind, or I wish I’ve done this, or I wish I’d done that.” To reignite the vision a little bit of, okay, where are we trying to go? What are we trying to achieve? Hopefully, that provides some motivation to get over some of the humps to be able to accelerate the plan into the future.

One other thing I want to ask you about, Tim, we’re going to come back and talk about a lot of these in more detail into the future. This episode is really meant to lay the foundation of some of the financial issues that Gen X is facing. We’re going to come back and talk about social security in great detail in the future, which I think is relevant for folks that are in benefit, for folks that are getting ready for benefit decisions, and for even younger practitioners that are maybe asking some questions around, well, how do I factor this in? What might this mean in terms of my long-term planning savings?

I think, there’s a little bit for everyone to learn as it relates to social security. Tim, from Gen X’s perspective, talk to us about confidence in social security, or lack thereof, and how this may factor into some of what they’re working and facing through?

[00:31:48] TB: Yeah. I think, there’s a T. Rowe Price article that basically, said that there’s very little confidence in social security. I think, it’s something 56% of Gen X expects that social security will be bankrupt by the time they retire. A full 73% agree with the statement that I’m expecting some security benefits when I retire, but nothing as generous as what today’s retirees get. I think, there’s two different things at play. One is, will social security not be there at all when I retire in 10, or 20 years as a Gen Xer? Versus, will it be there, but at a diminished amount?

I’m in the camp that I think, social security will always be there in some form or fashion. I do think that it’ll be either funded with a tax increase, or like a payroll increase, or something like that. Or it will be a diminished benefit, either pushing out for retirement age, or just a lower amount.

I think, an exercise, a good exercise for a Gen Xer, and I just did this recently just to check is to go on this socialsecurity.gov website. You can sign in and actually, see what your full retirement age is, if you retire at this age versus this age, what your benefit would actually be. If you have all the quarters that you need to do to qualify for social security. I think, this warrants probably a full episode, but the confidence is not there.

I hear it. Baby boomers, they feel pretty good about it, because a lot of them are approaching – already drawing on it. Gen Xers, very cynical about it. I think, Gen Y is like, “Yeah, I’m not counting on it.” At the end of the day, and we plan as if it’s not going to be there. At the same time, I think, it will be and I think it’ll be a much lower percentage of your retirement paycheck than the average American. It’s going to be there nonetheless. It’s just a matter of what would that be? At the end of the day, I think, it’s always smart to plan for retirement as if it’s going to be you all the way.

I don’t see it going bankrupt. I think, there’s a lot of people that I respect and following the industry that says, “It’ll be there. It might be a diminished benefit.” At the end of the day, it will be a part of your retirement paycheck, Gen X and even Gen Y as we proceed here.

[00:34:09] TU: Tim, this reminds me a little bit of some of the discussion around loan forgiveness. Not to say there won’t be changes or challenges to social security. I think, this has been well-documented, but some of the fear and angst around public service loan forgiveness. We have to think about, to, what would be the fallout if the plug got pulled, right?

I mean, there’s a lot of people, especially with social security, more so than loan forgiveness that, I mean, that would – especially if you’re 10 years away or less to retirement. That’s a big deal. Might there be transitionary phase, or smaller changes made along the way, same thing with loan forgiveness. We talked about making sure objectively evaluating some of those risks, considering them, but also, looking at some of the upside of the plan.

I like your suggestion and solution of, “Hey, let’s plan as if it may not be there and perhaps, even running some best case, worst case, middle of the road type of scenarios, and seeing how that fits out in terms of other savings that we have, and how social security would be complemented by that.”

[00:35:04] TB: Yeah, funding aside, it makes sense. I wouldn’t be surprised, because we live longer. I think, we’re just living longer. It makes sense for us to work longer than previous generations, because people just live in longer. I think, the fallout of – what we said about the loan forgiveness is that people are on track to count on this program. For the government to say, “Hey, psych, just kidding.” At a minimum, I think it would be grandfathered in. I think, if social security would ever go away, which I don’t think you would ever would, but I think it would at least be grandfathered in, in terms of a new account on this. Anybody born after year 2100 or something like that, then maybe that’s not.

I think, a lot of people, because we are really poor at saving for our future, it’s a necessity that I think, needs to happen. It’s a forced way for us to save for retirement. We pay for it out of our paycheck, so we have to save for retirement. One of the things that was a big headline, as baby boomers were going to retire, is they were going to bankrupt the system, right? I read, I think, somewhere that Gen Xers will outnumber baby boomers, by I think, year 2028. That’s not too far away.

I think, the dynamics in the numbers are changing. There’s going to be, again, a big transfer of wealth from generation to generation, which again, could buoy some of these years. I’m not necessarily doing a great job of saving for the future. Again, that would be where I would have a plan for that. I remember, my parents received a small inheritance, and I think, they redid their kitchen. If that’s a goal, then that’s great. I would also want to make sure that everything is on the up and up in terms of retirement. That’s going to be more so the case for Gen X pharmacists, where they have to go further to save for their own retirement, because the social security benefit, it’ll be there, but a much smaller percentage of that paycheck that you’re going to build in retirement. I think, you’re going to want to have the 401k and the IRAs, and some of these other accounts there to build that out.

Yeah. I think, Tim, it’s probably one of the things that we should probably dedicate a few episodes on is, just that whole picture of what that looks like in terms of security and some of those other things that are going on as you’re approaching retirement age.

[00:37:26] TU: Great stuff. Tim, again, intention here was to do somewhat of a high-level overview of some of the financial issues and challenges facing Gen X pharmacists that are in the YFP community. We’re going to dig into some more of these topics in the future. For those that are listening to this episode, and you find yourself thinking about many of these different priorities financially, whether you’re currently working with a planner, looking for a second opinion, not working with a planner, we’d love to have the opportunity to talk with you to see if the services at YFP Planning are a good fit for you. You can schedule a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Again, as we get ready to turn the calendar into 2022, just another thank you to those that take time out of their schedule each week to listen to the podcast. We don’t take that for granted. We appreciate the feedback, and the encouragement that we get. If you have ideas for future episodes, we’d love to hear from you. Wishing everyone a happy and healthy New Year and looking forward to seeing everyone in 2022.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[00:38:23] TU: Today’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast was sponsored by our friends at Thoughtful Wills. If you haven’t created your estate plan yet, we urge you to reach out to Notesong and Nathan. They draft custom estate planning documents, like wills, trusts, healthcare directives and durable powers of attorney that fit your situation and reflect your wishes. This is key. These are custom legal documents created and reviewed by actual attorneys.

Thoughtful Wills created to cut to the chase packages, designed for pharmacists who are ready to get their estate planning in order. You’ll really appreciate their dedication to approachable lawyering, and they charge about half of what most law firms charge for the same documents.

These documents are such a gift to your loved ones. If you haven’t created them yet, please just get it done. Reach out to Notesong and Nathan by going to thoughtfulwills.com/yfp. Go ahead and book a meeting with them. They’ll take such good care of you.

[END OF EPISODE]

[00:39:20] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment, or any other advice. Information to the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation, or offer to buy or sell any investment, or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 235: One Pharmacist Couple’s Journey to Financial Independence

Posted on by yfpadmin

One Pharmacist Couple’s Journey to Financial Independence

Josh and Shannon Pukl discuss their journey towards achieving financial independence and the strategies they have employed along the way.

About Today’s Guests

Josh and Shannon Pukl began their pharmacist career paths after graduating from Duquesne University in 2012 and ’13 respectively, but their financial journey didn’t evolve until 2015 after Shannon was diagnosed with breast cancer. Suddenly, life “guarantees” seemingly evaporated into questions, confusion, and unplanned expenses. Working through recovery, relocation and job changes a shift in focus began to sharpen their life ambitions – to be financially independent.

From sifting through several blogs and forum threads, listening to countless podcasts, and devouring financial books Josh and Shannon moved towards making money work for them. After creating an intense budget, dollar-cost averaging into index funds, and putting windfalls to work in the market this disciplined and blessed approach loosened the financial restraints allowing Shannon to be the first to set off on her encore career in entrepreneurship.

As a result, the Pukl’s intend to continue their path to 100%, true financial freedom for both husband and wife to pursue their truest callings and be the best stewards of what they’ve been gifted whether monetarily or otherwise.

Episode Summary

This week, your host Tim Ulbrich had the opportunity to sit down with pharmacists and leadership coaches, Shannon and Josh Pukl, to discuss their journey towards achieving financial independence. This episode is jam-packed with valuable insights, not only relating to mindset and vision casting, but also regarding actionable processes and steps you can take to ensure your financial independence and early retirement! Hear from Shannon about how her 2015 diagnosis with breast cancer changed her outlook on life’s guarantees and how she turned this very difficult situation into a source of motivation to become financially independent. We also discuss some of the strategies that Josh and Shannon have employed and found success in on their journey to becoming debt-free and, finally, what Shannon is doing in her encore career since retiring early from pharmacy. The discussion touches on setting up those passive income streams that will make all the difference, how budget and lifestyle changes allow you to enjoy the things that matter, and even how to prepare for the moment the upswings we’ve been enjoying in the current bull market drop. This is one conversation you don’t want to miss, so tune in now to hear it all today!

Key Points From This Episode

Shannon and Josh start us off by sharing why each of them got into pharmacy.
Shannon runs us through her post-school debt and shares gratitude that it wasn’t higher.
Josh expresses relief for the financial support provided by his parent’s foresight.
Where they worked after graduation; and a smart move that worked out well!
How Josh found out about financial freedom by accident and how he got to his ‘why’.
Shannon shares her history with cancer and the hugely expensive treatment costs.
How the financial strain created a motivation towards achieving financial independence.
Josh explains how his faith played a big part in keeping a positive mindset.
Learning the valuable lesson that money isn’t the most important thing; time and joy are.
Paying off her student loans as quickly as possible from the moment they came due.
Top tips and lifestyle changes that the Pukl’s advise for financial independence!
Setting up their passive income and the importance of having different income streams.
Shannon talks us through their work with universities around healthcare leadership.
Your Breast Life; Shannon’s blog to help and support women going through a similar journey.
Getting her real estate license and considering potential investment opportunities.
Hear about the ways that Shannon and Josh balance each other out in everyday life.
Living in a bull market and evaluating where you want to be when the downturn hits.
Josh casts a vision for their future in growing leadership in pharmacy.
The Pukl’s each share some parting advice you definitely want to hear!

Highlights

“Something I would encourage all pharmacists to consider is long-term disability insurance.” — Shannon Pukl [0:08:10]

“How do we live a life that we truly enjoy, day in and day out, and that we’re giving back every talent and every gift and every ability that we can to further whatever passion that we may have?” — Josh Pukl [0:12:04]

“We had to switch our mindset away from a scarcity mindset to a mindset of plenty.” — Josh Pukl [0:13:44]

“There is more to life than just your diagnosis. Diagnosis doesn’t define [you].” — Shannon Pukl [0:18:27]

“I think it’s really important to use whatever vehicles are available to you. One of my favorite quotes is kind of simple and it’s kind of silly. It is: ‘When is the best time to plant a tree? It was 20 years ago, but the second best time is today.’” — Josh Pukl [0:26:43]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP podcast where, each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had the opportunity to sit down with pharmacists, Shannon and Josh, to discuss their journey towards achieving financial independence. A few of my favorite moments from this episode are hearing from Shannon about how her 2015 diagnosis with breast cancer changed her outlook on life’s guarantees and how she turned this very difficult situation into a source of motivation to become financially independent.

We also discuss some of the strategies that Josh and Shannon have employed and found success on their journey to becoming debt-free and finally, what Shannon is doing in her encore career since retiring early from pharmacy.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40 plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional.

If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Shannon and Josh.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:22.6] TU: Shannon and Josh, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

[0:01:24.9] JP: Awesome, thanks so much for having us, Tim.

[0:01:26.9] SP: Excited to be here.

[0:01:28.3] TU: Shannon, you emailed us back at the end of October about finding YFP in your journey to financial freedom and early retirement, which allowed you to move into an encore career and give in to exactly what you’re doing there.

We knew we had to bring you on to the show and I’m excited to have the opportunity to share your journey with the YFP community. Before we dig in to the financial journey, let’s back up to what drew you both to pharmacy school, where you went to school, and when you graduated? Shannon, why don’t you just start us off?

[0:01:57.3] SP: Yeah, absolutely. For me, pharmacy school was really about helping people up until I was a senior in high school. I wanted to be a teacher, I had a great family friend talk me out of that. I stumbled upon pharmacy school with my family, kind of history of cancer. It just really pulled at my heartstrings and so I ended up going to Duquesne University in Pittsburgh.

[0:02:16.6] TU: Awesome, Josh, how about you?

[0:02:19.0] JP: My story is a little bit different. I guess I was kind of late to the game, I was a senior in high school, not quite sure what I wanted to do. I was a late admittance to Duquesne University. My parents actually brought it to my attention that pharmacy school seemed like a pretty good career, they have this good finances to it as well, sign-on bonuses at that time, and that was in 2006, whenever I was graduating from high school.

That’s kind of my story with it. It was more somewhat of an interest in that science type of field but then it also had a pretty good return on investment.

[0:02:48.7] TU: I share that with you, Josh, I went to a 06 direct entry program in Ohio Northern University. Actually, I was down between Ohio Northern and Duquesne. Great school, Duquesne. Came down to really just scholarships to be frank. And similar path, I was like, “Hey, this sounds interesting.” I was 18 years old, six years to be a doctor, good return on investment. Certainly glad it worked out but big decision to make at a young age for sure.

[0:03:09.5] JP: 100 percent. Now I’m with you exactly the same way. I was like, “Six years, six figures and a doctor, I’ll do it.”

[0:03:15.5] TU: Shannon, tell us more about your financial position after graduation in terms of student loan debt that had been accrued and how you felt about the debt at the time.

[0:03:25.1] SP: Yeah, I was blessed in that my parents had helped me some. They had saved for my college. When I came out of school, I had about $50,000 in debt, which compared to others, that’s not a substantial amount in that regard. But still, it’s quite a bit when you’re getting out and starting to make those payments.

[0:03:42.5] TU: Yeah, I think and Shannon, we’ve become somewhat numbed to these numbers, right? Because I think anyone if you look at the national average of indebtedness of a college student, I think it’s in the high 30s but in pharmacy where we’re used to $150,000 or $200,000. When we hear numbers below a hundred, I think our reactions sometimes is like, it’s not very big but it’s still a big number that we have to work with. Definitely noteworthy.

Josh, what about on your end, with any debt?

[0:04:04.5] JP: Actually not. I’m very blessed in the sense that my parents had funded a 429 all through my childhood, all the way up until graduation, and then my sister actually didn’t partake in that. I had pretty much a 429 fund that was set for two different individuals but my sister actually didn’t use it. That kind of rolled into my college education. Very blessed there.

[0:04:29.1] TU: It’s funny you say that, Josh. My wife and I have talked about, with our four boys as we’re saving for their college. What if one of them decides not to go to college or two of them and the other uses more. Is that something they’re going to say, “Hey, what about my money, right? Where is that going?”

[0:04:41.2] JP: Yeah, it’s definitely something that you have to think of as well, right? It reminds me of a biblical passage too as well, where one son goes and kind of does whatever they want with their wealth and the other one says at home, right? It’s the prodigal son type of story.

[0:04:54.6] TU: Absolutely. Tell us more about the career journey post-graduation. Shannon, what happened next after graduation, where did you work and what did that look like?

[0:05:03.0] SP: Yeah, Josh and I both went to school in Pittsburgh, there’s a few pharmacy schools there so not as many opportunities so we were open to relocating for our positions initially. We moved to Buckhannon West Virginia. I started first at CVS as a staff pharmacist and then about eight months in, I became a pharmacy manager at Walmart when really kind of launch my career from there.

[0:05:25.7] TU: CVS as a staff pharmacist, Walmart pharmacy manager, pretty early in your career, and Josh, what about you?

[0:05:30.8] JP: I actually had my whole pharmacy career with Walmart and that’s where I am currently. And I find it to be a really awesome firm and place to work. I love the environment and then the opportunities that they provide me as well. I started as an intern, then grad intern, staff pharmacist as a part-time hourly floater. Then again, when we graduated in 2012, people were still recovering from the recession, and so that’s where we decide to get licensed in West Virginia.

Kind of goes at some of those places that, people really didn’t want to be and lean into those opportunities and then that’s when we moved to Buckhannon, and then our careers really started to flourish at that point.

[0:06:04.8] TU: Both pharmacy managers early in your career and Josh, you shared with us before hitting record that you found out about financial freedom on accident. Talk to us about how that happened and what life events solidified your why behind wanting to work towards achieving financial freedom?

[0:06:21.4] JP: Tim, I’m so happy that you asked this question to be honest. Because, I don’t think I give enough credit to Mr. Money Mustache and Pete in his site that he created, it has all this great information about the shockingly simple math to financial freedom.

That’s kind of where I started with it. Realistically, it was in one of our moves that, we were going to relocate for work and I was trying to figure out how much of an expense should a mortgage payment be on your net or your gross income in your family?

I couldn’t quite figure out or find out how much is the right amount to spend, it was one Google search led to another until I found this guy’s site. Started reading through it and then I was like, this all makes really good sense, this math is pretty simple. My goodness, as a pharmacist and she’s a pharmacist too, as well, we really have a blessed opportunity here to potentially retire early.

[0:07:12.8] TU: Absolutely. We’re going to link to that article and Mr. Money Mustache in the show notes. Great stuff, great content that he has and obviously, it sounds like that might have inspired your initial learning and journey in the financial independence, retire early, the fire movement. And so great resources to share.

Shannon, tell us about, in your story you mentioned before, a family history of cancer. Tell us more about your experience, obviously a very difficult situation in terms of being diagnosed with cancer, and how you were able to process that and ultimately turn that into a motivation towards achieving financial independence.

[0:07:48.8] SP: Yeah, I was a year out from pharmacy school and I had just started at my new employer. This was about six months into that role when I was diagnosed with breast cancer. It was just before my 25th birthday. Certainly unexpected news and that really kind of put our financial position in perspective for Josh and I, because your income’s not guaranteed, right?

With that too, something I would encourage all pharmacists to consider is long-term disability insurance, so that wasn’t something that we did and thankfully I didn’t need to use it. But there’s often a waiting period and so it’s pretty inexpensive, it can be a huge benefit because a lot of times, we don’t think the worst is going to happen to us, right?

That’s where there’s the security blanket. With my cancer diagnosis, I had a lot of additional expenses that ended up coming into play, so we had a high deductible insurance plan. So you’re going to hit that deductible every year.

That’s pretty much guaranteed as you’re getting some of those expensive treatments. Then we had to consider fertility preservation, we hadn’t had kids and weren’t sure if we wanted to have kids but to even have that opportunity, we needed to look at that and that’s not something that’s covered by insurances.

Thankfully, we’re blessed and got some support from the Live Strong Fertility Foundation but there were other expenses that we still had to pay as part of that. I had a great oncologist and she’s really passionate about giving me my best chance of disease-free survival being so young at diagnosis. She wanted me to take PERJETA but I didn’t fit the indications a hundred percent at that time and so we really weren’t sure if that was going to be covered and so that would have been $36,000 for those six treatments.

Just a lot of additional expenses that started to come into play, and so that’s where we kind of took a step back and really reassessed where we were financially, and how we could work towards that financial independence.

[0:09:34.7] TU: Shannon, as you’re talking, I would say, based on many people we’ve interviewed on this show, that the financial situation for any pharmacist can be stressful as a new practitioner. We look at the debt loads, competing expenses. They are out there, the pressures to save for retirement. Perhaps young family expenses, lots of other things as well.

Even with a good six-figure income, I feel like there can be a lot of financial stressors there in a normal day, in a normal week, normal month, normal year. As you’re talking about some of these things with high deductible health plans, obviously the cancer diagnosis needs to have money saved for hospital bills, the instability, and questions around the income.

I hear through that, a very powerful mindset that says “Hey, we’re going to choose to look at this as an opportunity to really be in the driver’s seat, in terms of taking this difficult situation and ultimately making the most that we can out of it.” But I think it also would have been certainly – not necessarily accepted but it would have been okay, and folks would have maybe looked at it and said “Yeah, that’s a really difficult situation, we understand that you’re kind of frustrated through that and may not be able to achieve these goals and do those things.”

I’m curious to hear from you and Josh, what led to that mindset to say, “Hey, we have got this difficult situation in front of us but we’re going to do everything that we can to make the most of it.”

[0:10:52.1] SP: I think a big thing for me, once you get out of school and you’re a pharmacist, you’re making a pretty significant income for the first time after you’ve just been accruing debt, right? It’s easy to kind of have that lifestyle creep. Thankfully, early on, we had that realization that money and things aren’t necessarily what makes us happy, right? Still living at a comfortable level but not necessarily just seeking to spend all of our money.

[0:11:17.6] TU: Josh, anything else to add there in terms of just the mindset and the approach that you guys took through that difficult situation?

[0:11:23.7] JP: I think that’s a hundred percent accurate. I also think too, just being a Christian too as well and having a different frame of mind and understanding that a lot of this is temporal and then you can choose to be bitter or better out of a situation too as well. I think a lot of times, we look at money as being the answer to everything, even security. But you don’t have the security sometimes that you think from finding it, and things like that.

It really helped to put us back into perspective and understand what is most important. And a lot of times, that can be time, right? We’re all given 24 hours within a day and so how can we set ourselves up to a point that we can be where we only want to be at those times.

That’s the kind of the financial freedom journey too, as well as how do we live a life that we truly enjoy day in and day out, and that we’re giving back every talent and every gift and every ability that we can to further whatever it is and whatever passion that we may have.

[0:12:17.0] TU: Tell me more, Shannon, in terms of the student loans that we discussed earlier, tell us more about that journey of getting them paid off and when ultimately those came to an end?

[0:12:24.6] SP: Yeah. Thankfully, for whatever reason, I don’t really know where this came from but it was just very minded to start paying those debts down originally, as soon as they started coming due. Before we really got a new car, do it anything else, we just focused on the debt and it took us about a year or so to completely pay those off.

[0:12:43.5] TU: Okay, 2014, we’re debt-free from the student loans, 2015, we obviously have the difficult situation, the diagnosis with cancer. Josh, tell us more about the financial freedom journey since 2015. Have you guys achieved FI status, financial independence, are you still on the journey there? What changes have you guys made to your lifestyle on this journey and any tips that you would share with other pharmacists looking to embark on this journey?

[0:13:07.4] JP: Awesome. One tip is obviously using resources, especially like-minded people, like the YFP Podcast. I think that that’s a wonderful place for people to start and get that content too as well. Then, just finding it, that someone that resonates with you and their journey and just kind of devouring as much so you can. Our journey has changed a little bit based off of what it had been years previously.

Years previously, we had a very tight budget, expenses were very limited, very much like Mr. Money Mustache and some of those, different characters that are out there. And then we realized, “Well, we still want to live life, we still want to enjoy life, we still want to give too as well and do a lot of these things.” And so we had to switch our mindset away from a scarcity mindset to a mindset of plenty and plentiful and of bounty.

How do we build ourselves a way that we can get more passive income and not just save and then live off of savings, or live off of the returns from our savings, but start to build passive income so that that can be our way to have financial freedom?

[0:14:07.7] TU: Tell us more there Josh, passive income, it’s something I hear often from folks of “Hey, I want my money working for me.” I’d love to have some passive income, what does that look like for you guys specifically?

[0:14:16.5] JP: Yeah, I think that’s a great callout. One of the ways that we’re set up right now – I have to joke about it. I feel like I’m asset-rich and cash flow poor. What I mean by that is, I’ve used a lot of those index fund vehicles that are available, to be able to build up equity and then be able to live off of just dividend investments or off of its return, something like that. Very, very much like the financial independent retire-early community.

You’ll find that information ubiquitously. That’s nothing that’s really new. The problem then becomes is, of course, you have downturns in the market, you have long bull markets that we’re in and we’re blessed to have right now, but there is not a lot of consistency out of that, right? I wanted to be outside of a place where my money and my income is going to be based off of what can I withdraw out of the account, regardless of what the market is doing, without having that psychological feeling of, “Is this a good time to pull money or should I allow those dividends to reinvest?”

Passive income has switched away from allowing that to come from equity and index fund returns and start to look at building businesses and building side hustles, I guess is more appropriate for what our terminology is today. And building those types of different income streams and not just focusing on one income stream.

[0:15:31.3] TU: Yeah, I think that’s really interesting, you mentioned it, Josh – it’s something my wife and I have felt. I suspect many pharmacists especially that have been saving consistently for a period of time, eventually, that money is going to compound. It is going to grow, compound interest will do its thing but folks may find themselves in a situation where they’re working towards or are asset rich but they may feel like they are cash-flow challenged.

What are some alternative ways to diversify the income streams perhaps in addition to outside of traditional retirement accounts, which of course becomes very important for folks that might be pursuing early retirement? Shannon, I want to shift gears for a moment and talk about your encore career and I love this phrase that you started at the age of 32 from your early retirement from pharmacy and when we talk before, you mentioned that choice was a big ‘why’ behind pursuing financial freedom for you.

Talk to us about what you mean by choice, and then walk us through your journey to early retirement and what you’ve been working on in your encore career?

[0:16:25.9] SP: Yeah, absolutely and so one big thing with work is that we wanted it more to be a nice-to-do rather than a need-to-do, right? It’s not necessarily just to be financial independent and say, “Hey, that’s it” but we still wanted to bring value. And so, once we hit that goal number that we had in mind earlier this year, it gave me the opportunity to step back and work on some things that I’m still super passionate about.

Just like the YFP community and we have that realization that pharmacists aren’t taught finance or some basic accounting skills in pharmacy school curriculums, there is a huge gap there for them. It’s very similar with leadership, right? Josh and I, after we were pharmacy managers, we had the opportunity to be promoted to district managers and so between the two of us, we’ve had over 80 different facilities.

We’ve noticed that there is a gap, and, in some instances, the curriculum gets glossed over from people management and leadership skills. And so, we really want to take what we’ve learned and help pharmacists apply that in their practices to make their days better.

[0:17:24.3] TU: That is some of the work if I am following correctly, that you’re doing with universities around healthcare leadership. Is that correct?

[0:17:30.0] SP: Yes. So we actually developed a continuing education program with our alma mater, Duquesne University, so it’s the Healthcare Leadership Course. It’s 17 hours of continuing education and it’s really taking some of those experiences that we’ve had in our working environments, and then also taking some of the theories behind why motivation works and helping pharmacists apply it directly to pharmacy.

[0:17:52.0] TU: Very cool. So I know that since retiring from pharmacy, I guess retirement – you’re doing lots of work so “retirement” – in August 2021, one of the pieces you’re doing is that continuing education around health care leadership. What are some of the other things that you guys are working on?

[0:18:05.3] SP: Yeah, another big one is Your Breast Life. It’s a blog all around my cancer journey. And going through that at a young age, I didn’t necessarily have hope beyond what was right in front of me, and so I had to make some really tough choices. And some of them were more radical, as I wanted to just have my best opportunity to continue on. So helping women understand that there is more to life than just your diagnosis. Diagnosis doesn’t define.

[0:18:32.1] TU: Okay, so we’re going to link to that in the show notes as well, so folks can check out that blog and I think there’s another piece here around real estate, is that correct?

[0:18:39.3] SP: I got my real estate license as well, yeah. That was a fairly recent – once I stepped out of my corporate role, I ended up getting my real estate license and so that’s something that Josh and I have been talking about doing, is potential investment opportunities as he mentioned with the passive income. Looking at some syndications and various things.

[0:18:56.5] TU: It sounds like you went from a busy career to maybe a busier retirement, right? You’re doing a lot, so that’s exciting.

[0:19:02.7] SP: Yeah, so I mean the transition – I wasn’t expecting to have less time. But it’s all been things that I want to do and that’s something that’s just so enjoyable, to have those opportunities.

[0:19:12.3] TU: Shannon, was there an “aha moment” when you knew that you were at a position that you could leave your traditional job?

[0:19:18.0] SP: Josh and I definitely balance each other in this. I do a lot of the day-to-day budgeting and accounting in that and then Josh does a lot of the future planning and long-term investments.

[0:19:28.3] JP: I guess I was more of the one that said, “Okay, now we’re okay that we can do this” right? Shannon is very good as far as the accounting side of it and I handle I guess more of the finance and the planning portion of it. But again, we’ve had such a long bull pull in market and been super fortunate and blessed with our income and just the ways that we’ve been able to use that income, and then put it back into the market and see those returns.

Then understanding too that, “Hey, I still like what I’m doing.” I’m still enjoying leading people at different levels and different degrees. I’m going to keep doing this but yet, let’s also build a future too for ourselves and something that’s going to add value at a greater level than where we’re at now.

[0:20:05.5] TU: Yeah and I think Josh as you’re talking, I graduated in 2008 and so, outside of the dip of course, that significant dip that happened in the recession in 2008, I’ve only lived through a bull market, right? Here we are on kind of that 13 year-ish run and so I suspect many folks might be hearing this thinking, how are you looking at that in terms of the investments that you’ve built and perhaps some volatility that may or may not be ahead.

Obviously, we’ve been on kind of this upswing period that inevitably, we might have that downturn at some point. How are you looking at that?

[0:20:38.5] JP: Yeah, 100 percent. I’m glad you actually asked the question because it comes back to looking at different income streams and different ways that you can actually isolate yourself away from those market downturns. I don’t want to necessarily be built upon a pedestal that’s only on one foundation, right? I want to look at different ways that I can have income coming from different directions so that I could be safe and secure.

It is basically planning out different contingency plans to ensure that no matter what cycle and no matter what market, no matter what is going on within the world that there is still going to be some type of revenue. And it is kind of interesting too because we even think back to real estate and how stable it is a lot of times for income, right? “People always need a place to live” we always hear but then when we had the eviction moratorium that came up and that extended for a very long time, we had small-time landlords that were not getting any income.

But yet, they were still on the hook for the mortgages too as well. So you have to really diversify your mindset and then understand, “Well, where else can I be able to generate enough revenue to be able to be safe in any circumstance in any situation?” That’s probably been another major mindset for us too as well is that you’re probably not as much as I want to stay as efficient as possible, you are probably not going to get your entire passive income from one revenue stream. It is just not as likely and not as common as what you think.

[0:21:57.5] TU: Yeah and I think the FIRE community does a great job of talking about that examples that are out there. We’ve had a couple podcast episodes we’ve talked about on financial independence, retire early. FIRE for folks that are hearing that. For the first time, we’ve got a couple of blogs on that topic as well, we’ll link to in the show notes. And then the most recent book that we published by Jeff Climber is focused on Fire RX and that pathway towards achieving financial independence as a pharmacist.

Josh, cast a vision for us for Josh and Shannon over the next 10, 15, 20 years. What’s really ahead for you guys in terms of big ideas? Obviously, you’re still very, very early age-wise in terms of career and opportunities that are ahead, so what are some of the plans that you guys are looking forward to?

[0:22:38.2] JP: Awesome. I think for myself, I still enjoy the corporate life and I still enjoy the W2 position, so I want to continue to grow. I think that I can still lead at different various levels too as well, so I want to keep propelling along that path, learning, and growing, and then being able to motivate, inspire and lead at higher levels throughout organizations in my career.

I think about Shannon and myself together – I’d like to see the healthcare leadership certificate begin to impact a lot more pharmacists and also across different medical disciplines too as well, get that in front of people so that they can have better days because we know that a lot of times, people leave managers and bosses. They don’t leave jobs, right? How do we get that into the hands of pharmacists that are brilliant people that just need a little bit more guidance in helping them?

Then I think about YBL, that Your Breast Life and just expanding that out to have a broader sense of community across young cancer survivors in that breast cancer community. So I want to get to a point soon that where all of these different projects are completely just extra, right? That passive income that’s coming into us and then be able to give a lot more generously, I feel like the Lord has blessed us immensely with a lot of gifted abilities.

Just like in the Biblical sense that they were given ten talents, they went and made more, I would really be able to go and just give more, so that’s our big vision is, how can we continue to draw in to be able to make a bigger impact to others that we encounter and add value back to others.

[0:24:06.2] TU: Josh, as you’re talking what really resonates with me for you and Shannon, is one of the things I say is when people feel like they might be stuck, right? That could be financially, that could be in their career, I know for me individually when I get to that point where I feel like I’m stuck, I often have to go back and say, “Is the vision, is the Why clear enough? Is it strong enough?”

I think what you just shared there really highlights to me that the motivation, the why, the vision, the plan that you guys have, you spent time thinking, dreaming about that vision, and obviously that has a significant impact I suspect in terms of what you guys are doing to execute each day, each week, each month. Great stuff on the vision casting, something that we believe firmly in here at YFP of spending time to really articulate the vision and begin to believe in that vision for what can be possible going forward.

I am curious to hear from you guys and Shannon, I want to start with you and then Josh, I’ll ask you the same question. You know, we’ve got many people I suspect that are listening at different points in their career, perhaps some students or residents that are at the very beginning of their journey, maybe folks that are out seven or 10 years who are kind of coming at the end of that new practitioner phase and then more seasoned pharmacists that have been at it for 15, 20, 25 or more years.

I think this concept of financial independence regardless of stage of career is going to get a lot of people excited and thinking and perhaps that they have some goals around achieving financial independence and perhaps give or take, the retirement early piece. What advice would you have for those listening that are thinking that they would like to strive towards achieving financial independence? What would be a piece of advice that you would share with them, Shannon?

[0:25:39.0] SP: For me, I think the biggest thing would be a budget. If you are not already doing a budget, I 100 percent recommend you doing it. That was something that Josh and I did very early on in this kind of progression for us, and as he mentioned earlier, initially it was very kind of strapped and it almost became a game for us. When we both got promoted to district managers, we were making the most that we ever had, but it was how little can we live on, right?

It was kind of fun in that sense. Then like he mentioned, as we got further along, we really wanted to be more sustainable so that we could do additional things that we enjoyed. I like traveling, he likes cars, giving is important to us. So we wanted to make sure we were incorporating that into the budget. Kind of like the Tim Baker episode that you guys did with the RV and the depreciating asset, we love that, right?

You’ve still got to have some fun in there and so that was huge but just having a budget and being able to see where every dollar goes is so valuable, you know? I was overspending quite a bit on groceries because we could make the argument you need to eat, right? But had a lot of waste there and so it just gives you visibility into how you’re spending your money, which is so important.

[0:26:41.8] TU: Great stuff. Josh, how about for you?

[0:26:43.4] JP: I think it’s really important to just use whatever vehicles are available to you. One of my favorite quotes is kind of simple and it’s kind of silly, it’s “When is the best time to plant a tree?” And it was 20 years ago but the second-best time is today, right? If you’re listening to this at any stage of your career and you’re not contributing to a 401(k) company match plan, you need to do it. It’s tax-deferred and so you’re not going to pay taxes on it.

It is going to be your full income of gross coming into it and then your company is going to give you some income as well with it. Using company matches that you have too, whether it’s for stock and equity options that they have. If you have children, using 429 plans. There’s tons of different options and things out there that I really want to encourage people to just read, and just to do a moniker of research on their own to be able to find that there are different vehicles out there.

People are scared of the market. “I don’t know what to invest, stocks go up and down.” Buy the whole market. Buy VTSAX, Fidelity has a zero expense ratio plan that’s out there now, index fund that is available for people that would just be coming into it now. Look at those different things so invest as much as you can, live on as little as you can, and be as grateful and gracious as you can.

[0:27:52.7] TU: Great stuff Josh and I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show, to share your story, to be an inspiration to those that are listening. Really excited to see where your journey goes ahead. As I mention, you’re just on the starting point of, I think, a really exciting time in many, many years ahead, so looking forward to following your journey as well as the work that you’re doing with the various side hustles, business and some of the real estate endeavors as well.

Congratulations on the success you guys have, looking forward to following you in the future, and thanks again for coming on the show.

[0:28:20.9] SP: Thank you so much for having us.

[0:28:22.2] TU: Thank you, too.

[0:28:22.9] SP: We love the YFP community, so thank you.

[0:28:24.8] JP: Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:28:25.8] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 234: Your Student Loan Refinancing Questions Answered

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Your Student Loan Refinancing Questions Answered

YFP Planning Lead Planner, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, discusses commonly asked questions regarding refinancing student loans.

Episode Summary

We last had our guest on the show almost two years ago to dig into the most recent administrative forbearance extension for those with student loans, where we helped you calculate your next moves before the end of that extension in January 2022. With that date right around the corner, it’s time to remove the snooze button and get prepared for those student loan repayments to start up again! Refinancing is one of many options available, and with that in mind, we sit down with our very own Kelly Reddy-Heffner, to cover commonly asked questions about refinancing student loans. Hear how the end of the administrative forbearance period impacts one’s decision to refinance, what to look for when considering various refinancing options, and some hugely important points on consolidation. We also dive into what you may be giving up and gaining when moving your loans from the federal to the private systems through a refinance and who should and should not consider refinancing their loans. Kelly also shares some valuable insight on rates in the current climate, partial refi’s, income-based repayment options, and some crucial questions to ask your servicer. This episode has all the answers you need; tune in now to get empowered on your refinancing journey!

Key Points From This Episode

An introduction to Kelly Reddy-Heffner, and recapping her previous YFP episode.
How it’s a complicated decision to choose the right repayment plan for you.
The two distinct categories of who refinancing is not a good fit for.
A reminder that refinancing is a one-way street from federal to private.
Do checking rates impact my credit score? Be aware of the language used!
Unpacking the option of refinancing more than once.
Reading the fine print on what happens to the loan in the event of death or disability.
Picking a time horizon and monthly payment amount that’s doable.
Fixed-rate or variable? Kelly recommends what to do in the current climate.
We break down the difference between consolidation and refinancing.
Pursuing income-based repayment options, and some challenges with private loans.
Hear about a partial refi of a federal loan.
We reflect on some of the past rates etched in Tim’s mind from his repayment journey.
Thoughts on the upcoming end of administrative forbearance and unlikely extensions.
Kelly shares some parting advice for December that we all need to hear!

Highlights

“It is time to really be prepared and to expect those loan payments to start up again.” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner [0:03:14]

“That interest rate that you’re offered is based on your creditworthiness. Unlike in the federal system where it’s a set rate for the year and it’s predetermined in the private market, it is based on your overall capacity to take on that debt and to pay it off successfully.” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner [0:08:19]

“We recommend picking a time horizon and a monthly payment amount that is doable. We love to see people push a little bit to be able to accelerate that repayment and get it done as quickly as possible, but it doesn’t make a ton of sense to walk into a loan that just isn’t doable.” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner [0:11:35]

“Be knowledgeable. It is time to look at everything with a clear open mind and use the information that we have available at present to make a good decision about if this is a good move for you and the student loans.” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner [0:24:09]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, we got a chance to sit down with YFP Planning lead planner, Kelly Reddy-Heffner to talk about commonly asked questions with refinancing student loans. During the show, Kelly and I talked about how the end of administrative forbearance period impacts one’s decision to refinance, what to look for when considering various refinancing options, what you may be giving up and gaining when moving your loans from the federal to the private systems through a refinance, and who should and should not consider refinancing their loans.

Those that are itching to learn more about refinancing student loans, you can head on over to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/refinance, where you can look at current offers, calculate projected savings and download a copy of our free refinancing worksheet to compare multiple offers.

As we wrap up another year of this show and are knee deep into the planning for 2022, I want to say thank you to the YFP community for entrusting us with your time by listening to this podcast. We don’t take for granted your support and encouragement of the work that we are doing at YFP to help pharmacist on their path towards achieving financial freedom.

Also, a big shout out to the YFP team members, Katelyn Boyle and Rose Mercado who are the engine behind making the YFP Podcast a reality each week. Katelyn and Rose, your contributions to the team and the YFP community are truly appreciated.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:35.1] TU: Kelly, welcome back to the show.

[0:01:36.5] KRH: Thank you for having me Tim.

[0:01:38.3] TU: Before I put you on the hot seat and rapid fire some common refinance questions for you to answer, give us a brief introduction of yourself and your role at YFP Planning, for those that may not have heard you on a previous episode of the podcast.

[0:01:51.3] KRH: I am one of the lead planners here at YFP and have the privilege of working with clients to do comprehensive financial planning. I’ve been with the firm over a year now, I just celebrated my one-year anniversary, which was great. And I certainly am very passionate about these student loan topics today, talking about refinancing as a potential option fits right in with that conversation.

[0:02:19.9] TU: I suspect we have some team Kelly clients that might be listening saying, “Hey, that’s my planner” so shout out to team Kelly that’s listening. We’re certainly super grateful to have you as a part of the team. So we had you last on the show on episode 220 when we talked about the most recent administrative forbearance extension. And on that show, we talk through how those with student loans should be calculating their next moves prior to the end of that extension, which we now know is at the end of January 2022.

Here we are, about a month away and we’ve had the snooze button on student loan payments for almost two years. Kelly, is this really happening, are we going to be back in action here?

[0:03:01.7] KRH: I sadly think it is and isn’t it funny? I was thinking, when did we first start talking about this but right, it seemed like it was so far in the distance. But I do believe we are here. It is time to really be prepared and to expect those loan payments to start up again.

[0:03:22.4] TU: We have discussed many times, emphasis on many, student loan repayments on the show and we’ve talked about how it really is a complicated decision. There’s lots of options, right? We’ve got all the options in the federal system including the standard tenure repayment, extended fixed graduate host to the income driven repayment plans.

Furthermore, we have forgiveness options, both public service, non-public service loan forgiveness and as we’ll discuss today, the various options you have outside in the private sector through a refinance. All that to say, the decision can be complicated in terms of student loan repayment plan that’s best for your personal situation. I really do believe it’s worth the time and the effort to make sure that you’re evaluating all of your options.

With that in mind, remembering that refinancing is just one of the options, let’s dig into some common refinance questions. Kelly, are you ready?

[0:04:12.6] KRH: I am ready.

[0:04:13.1] TU: All right, here we go, number one, who should not refinance their student loans or who should consider at least that this may not be the best move for them?

[0:04:21.5] KRH: I would say, there are two distinct categories of who this is not a good fit for at present. Of course, if you’re working for a nonprofit or a qualifying employer to receive public student loan forgiveness, then this is not a good option. That usually is a competitive strategy when we match that up against all other options, so that at least needs to be strongly looked at as an option if you work for a qualifying employer. As a subset of that, I think if you run the numbers and non-PSLF forgiveness is compelling, then I think that that would be a reason not to refinance as well.

I will say, the other area which is kind of a little bit of an interesting nuance in our current workplace environment is, if you are thinking about leaving your job or changing your job to the point where you might have lower income or are unsure about the consistency of your income. Then I would not rush into a refinance either, and we’re seeing a little bit of transition happening right now I think.

[0:05:34.4] TU: Good points and I think all of that is a good reminder that refinancing is a one-way street from federal to private, right? We ain’t coming around the corner, back into the federal option ones, we go down that pathway, we’re there. Some of the doors that you were kind of alluding to that we might want to keep open for certain folks, we need to be evaluating that before we pull the trigger on refinancing.

Kelly, number two is, will checking rates impact my credit score? I get this question a lot because one exit we recommend for folks that have determined this is a potential path forward is to do the work to go out, shop around, compare rates. And I think that naturally raises the question as, what impact is that going to have on my credit score?

[0:06:11.5] KRH: Yeah, again, we want to make sure people’s credit scores are healthy because it impacts other things. Getting a requote in general should be a soft inquiry, so those soft inquiries aren’t specifically related to an application for credit, so those are recorded differently on your credit score. They’re noted but they should not have an impact on the overall number.

Now, actually, applying, getting approved – and sometimes the language is a little bit interesting. I looked up one of the loan servicers recently and it does give a disclaimer that by checking this box, you’re kind of giving the green light to have some type of credit checked.

I think when we see that type of language, you should assume that there could be a little bit of an impact, it should be minor, that hard inquiry for a period of time. But that’s why we say the kind of group, the shopping together too is supposed to work where if you do a number of inquiries and close proximity to each other that is going to count as one. Similar to shopping for a mortgage rate as well.

[0:07:21.3] TU: If folks go to our refinance page, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/refinance, we have a spreadsheet that you can download that will help you as you’re shopping and comparing some of those rates especially if you decide to bunch those together as Kelly just mentioned.

Kelly, another common question is, can I refinance more than once? What about the opportunity to re-refinance, perhaps because rates have changed or there might be some bonus offers out there or combination of things, what are the opportunities here to look at refinancing more than one time?

[0:07:49.8] KRH: Sure, yeah. It is an option to refinance more than once, like you are not locked into that rate for an indeterminate amount of time. You should be shopping around when you know that rates are lower, the refinance again is based on wanting to get a lower interest rate. If you’re still in the four and 5% range, current rates are lower than that.

Now, I will say, that interest rate that you’re offered is based on your credit worthiness. Unlike in the federal system where it’s a set rate for the year and it’s predetermined in the private market, it is based on your overall capacity to take on that debt and to pay it off successfully.

It is a little less work than a mortgage as well to refinance a mortgage. I do encourage people to look for those lower rates and to make a change. Even a couple of points can make a big difference in overall what you pay over time.

[0:08:56.4] TU: Yeah, we’ve got a calculator as well and this is you know, great place that folks are shopping around to think about too, “What’s the repayment timeline and the impact of the rate?” Shorter timeline to payoff, obviously, the difference of savings versus a longer time to payoff might be greater, depending on the rates. So, considering that as you’re shopping around rates.

Kelly, one of the common concerns I hear is, “Hey, when am I going to be giving up, when am I going to be losing by leaving the federal system, especially if this is a one way street?” And we often talk about that when it comes to the federal loans, if someone were to unexpectedly pass away or become permanently disabled, there’s some protections there, but what about in the private system? Will loans be discharged if one passes away or becomes disabled?

[0:09:39.9] KRH: I’m heading into typical financial planner territory and giving the Tim Baker answer of, it depends. I think this was a mail bag question about maternity benefits and cause payments a little while back. So similar to that answer, in case anyone recalls that, it really does depend on the loan servicer, but we are seeing a lot more private lenders give those provisions a discharge at death or disability.

So that is something that I would say is appropriate to be asking the lender and reading the fine print, and making sure that you do select a loan that not only is a competitive interest rate wise but also has some of those other features that help you feel more comfortable about making the change. And they do exist out there but not with every lender.

[0:10:35.0] TU: Absolutely and you’ll see that, we have some of that listed on the refinance page but to your point, it really does depend on the lender. And for folks that find themselves, maybe they refinanced, historically, they’re listening to this and are coming to realization, “Hey, I didn’t know that I’m currently working with a company where I don’t have those protections.” A great example of where student loans can intersect with other parts of the financial plan. So, thinking about life, disability insurance policies if that’s the case in your situation, “Can I pay extra towards my loan? If I want to be able to pay these off quicker, can I pay off more each month and is there going to be a penalty incurred if I do that?”

[0:11:10.4] KRH: Yeah, it’s very unlikely to see a loan in the current market space where there would be a penalty for prepayment or accelerated repayment. But again, all in the fine print, all in the details, perfect question to ask as you are considering a refinance. But in general, the answer is yes, you can pay extra. We do encourage when we’re talking to clients about refinancing, we recommend picking a time horizon and a monthly payment amount that is doable.

We love to see people push a little bit to be able to accelerate that repayment and get it done as quickly as possible, but it doesn’t make a ton of sense to walk into a loan that just isn’t doable. It’s really important to make sure that you pick a monthly payment, a term that makes sense and then right, if you have some extra that you can put towards that, yes, whether hopefully or a lump sum at the end of the year, anything will help reduce the overall amount of interest that you pay on the life of the loan.

[0:12:20.8] TU: You can always make extra payments, right? You can’t not make the minimum payment. So, good insights there, I think. Fixed or variable? This is an important question because of how these refinance options are presented, where folks might be looking at, “Is it fixed, is it variable, how do I make that decision?” And then even just thinking about the nature of the variable rate and some of the uncertainty that may come from there.

Knowing this is – and it depends, I’m certain, on one’s personal situation. What are some of the things that you’re thinking through, or asking some questions of a client that might be planning, when making this decision around fixed or variable?

[0:12:54.4] KRH: Well, in definitely, the current interest rates are a big component on decisions so we’re at h historically low rates right now. I would lean towards – and again, it does depend on the individual circumstances, but lean towards a fixed rate because the likelihood of a rate being lower in the future is probably not really likely in our current environment.

If you are going to consider a variable rate, again, the attention to detail is extremely important because you need to know the fine print. How frequently will the rate change or could change by how much, and is there a cap on how high the rate can go? So usually, variable rates are when rates are higher and we’re hopeful that they’ll go down in the future. So we kind of lock in something lower and keep looking for a lower rate. But right now, with fixed, they’re pretty low.

Depending on the circumstance, I would lead towards getting that lowest rate locked in for the duration of the loan.

[0:14:04.0] TU: Kelly, refinancing versus consolidation. I often will get questions from folks when we present on student loans and they may be using the terms consolidation but might mean refinancing. Just break this apart for a moment of what the difference is between refinancing and consolidation?

[0:14:20.8] KRH: Sure, so when you have federal loans, often we’re taking loans out, different semesters. When you graduate, you have potentially ten separate loans going on, maybe even more than that. Consolidation is, you’re taking those federal loans and you are consolidating them into one or two loans. Usually, it’s broken down into subsidized, unsubsidized, for convenience. It doesn’t impact the interest rate of anything. It’s kind of the average of the interest rates and it’s rounded up a little bit, so it’s not improving the interest rate on the consolidation side.

A refinance is you’re either taking those federal loans and you are refinancing them into the private market, so you are moving them from federal to private, or you have existing private loans and you’re refinancing them into other private loans.

Again, as you said already Tim, which cannot be emphasized enough, going from federal to private is a one way transaction. There is no turning back and again, consolidation is a little bit of a one way transaction as well. You can’t un-bundle the loans then. Consolidation can be helpful if you’re staying in the federal system to qualify for loan forgiveness programs or certain income driven repayment plans. We often consolidate to open up federal options. We often refinance to get better interest rate.

[0:15:53.8] TU: Just a really good reminder Kelly, I have talked to a few folks in the last few weeks that, where I could tell they were ready to pull the trigger on either a refinance or consolidation but they weren’t yet fully aware of the implications of what that decision was going to mean, and what that ultimately may lead to in terms of other repayment options and pathways not being open to them anymore.

Just a good opportunity to take a step back, make sure we’re looking at all the options around the table and then of course, refinancing and consolidation may or may not be a part of that path forward. Are income-based repayment options available? Obviously, we know that many pharmacists, especially those that are perhaps making that transition from student or resident to a new practitioner, income-based repayment options allowing for that payment as they ease into that bigger income and bigger payments. Are those something that they can pursue also on the private side?

[0:16:46.0] KRH: Unfortunate that is not a feature of private loans and that is why when I said the categories of people that should not jump into refinancing, this is exactly that reference. Just the option to have income-driven repayment gives that flexibility if there is a period of time where you’re not working or income has decreased. You can re-certify your income within those income-driven repayment plans using a statement, and have that payment re-evaluated and probably lowered based on that new income amount.

That’s the challenge with the refinance is, there could be some provisions for unemployment but there is not a system for, “I’m working less” or “I am working different hours.” And we’re seeing a lot of flexibility, we have – many of our pharmacist clients have seen an increase in those per diem hours, different overtime. You know, if that is fluctuating quite a bit and changing, make sure, if you’re going to refinance, you do pick that right term that fits what you know your income is going to be. Because those private plans don’t have that flexibility.

[0:18:04.7] TU: That’s a great point Kelly. I was talking to a pharmacist earlier this week that is working part-time with variable night shifts, day shifts and that’s income is fluctuating, so really important consideration. The other thing I think you might have been eluding to is, we’re seeing a lot of pharmacists that are out there picking up extra shifts with COVID vaccines and other things, so if that were to change and hours were to come back down, that could have some implications as well.

A good reminder of the value of those income-driven options inside of the federal system. What about a partial refi of a federal loan? Maybe not all of them for whatever reason but can I do a partial refinance of my federal loans?

[0:18:41.4] KRH: This probably would not have been a common question prior to the conversation starting about a potential loan forgiveness, like in bulk amount. Once that became a new story, I think there’s been a fair amount of conversation like “I want to leave a little bit on the federal system to just in case, you know, $10,000, $25,000.” We have not heard a lot more conversation about that towards the end of the year.

[0:19:14.6] TU: Yeah, it’s been quiet.

[0:19:15.9] KRH: Yeah, it has been very quiet so I don’t know if that would really happen. And there probably will be some criteria in place, potentially, for who would qualify for that. But, in general, if you’ve already consolidated your loans, then no. You’ve bundled them, you really can’t separate them out. If they are still individual, then you have the potential to explore if you want to maybe refinance the highest rate one, or a combination to see what really would work out the best.

We do see some of those loans, depending on the year they were taken out, on the federal side, could be in the 3%, 4% range. Again, if you’re shopping for a refinance rate and the rate is in the threes, you know then maybe you’re taking a 6.8% federal loan and into the private side, but if you have like a 3% or 3.5% loan on the federal side, then maybe you’re sticking on the federal side for some of those loans.

We don’t like to overcomplicate strategies, try to keep things simple, straightforward, so just keeping that in mind as a component though. You want to make sure everything is easy to make the payment on time, where does the payment need to go. But yes, we do get asked that. I do think it’s a question that has come up because of the current environment, with the possibility of that bulk forgiveness but I cannot say that that is going to happen at this point either.

[0:20:49.5] TU: Yeah, it has been quiet. And, interesting, Kelly when you said 6.8% as an example, it still makes me squirm in my seat. That was many of my federal loans in my debt repayment journey where it’s 6.8% so thank you for bringing up those negative memories. But good example of what that may be.

[0:21:05.5] KRH: Tim, I forgot. I know, well, I think it is – everyone’s like that 6.8%, it’s so high. It competes with a credit card rate. Yes, I apologize though. I don’t want to send you back to a dark space.

[0:21:21.3] TU: No, it’s just interesting, like I can see it on the screen, you know? It’s just amazing how those get etched in your memories. But the story at the end was good, so that’s all positive. The last question I have for you, perhaps the one that many folks are thinking, and knowing it certainly depends on one’s personal situation, but we’re coming up at the end of the administrative forbearance coming around the corner, and so this question of timing.

When should I consider refinancing with the upcoming end? I think there’s been some rumblings all along for good reasons about, will there be an extension coming? And that happened and then it happened again, and it looks like as you mentioned earlier, here we are at the end. So this timing of refinancing is, I suspect, one that we’re going to see a lot of folks asking here in the next month.

[0:22:03.8] KRH: Yeah, how amazing that when we started talking about it again, it seemed like so far in the distance. I don’t see any indications of payments not restarting. In fact, I would recommend that people follow up with their loan servicer and inquire, like we know the forbearance is ending in January. We’ve definitely seen people’s payments starting anywhere from February through July depending on how they had made their last couple of payments or if they made any payments during the COVID forbearance.

Check in with your loan servicer, reconfirm when that payment is going to start. I think it probably is time for the New Year to shop the rates. Right now, I kind of double check to see what they look like for maybe six months ago, and I’d say there’s still competitive and still similar. Those shorter term rates, like five and seven years, look like a little bit lower than even six months ago. But longer term like 10, 20 year looks slightly higher, but again, still well within the two and half to 3.4%.

Again, it does depend on your credit, what rate you get but I think it’s at least time to start asking the question and maybe work through the numbers. Evaluate how likely you are to qualify for a non-PSLF or PSLF forgiveness program. And it is always about that mindset too. I think we’ve spent a lot of – I hope we’ve spent a lot of the last, is it 18 months now? I feel like I’m still saying a year and a half but I think we’re creeping towards two years.

[0:23:48.3] TU: Almost two years, yeah.

[0:23:49.7] KRH: Somewhere in that timeframe, wherever you’re at emotionally with this, you know we’ve been in a little bit of a hiatus. Hopefully, people have been saving, paying down any other debt that they had or making great other choices along the way. Maybe they were able to do a home purchase, do some other things. So now, get the information. Be knowledgeable. It is time to look at everything with a clear open mind and use the information that we have available at present to make a good decision about if this is a good move for you and the student loans.

[0:24:25.9] TU: Great stuff Kelly. I really appreciate your insights here on this episode and previous episodes, and the work that you do with many of our clients at YFP Planning. Not just on student loans, but obviously this being one part of the financial planning, and an important for many folks and how it fits in with other pieces of the puzzle.

If folks are looking to take action on what they have heard today and specifically for those that are looking to make a move on refinancing or inquire more information, you can head on over to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/refinance. There you can look at current offers, start to get some quotes, run some calculations on potential savings, and as I mentioned previously, download the spreadsheet that we have that we can use to compare multiple offers.

For those, secondly, that are looking for more information about which option to pursue, again refinance being just one of the many options to pursue, we have a student loan analysis service that is intended to do exactly that and that more information is at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/sla. And really the purpose of this is that you would work one-on-one with one of our certified financial planners, so that you could look at all of your options and confidently choose a plan that will save you the most money and align with your financial goals.

Again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/sla. You can learn more information there and if you use the coupon code “yfp” that is good for 10% off. Kelly, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on the show.

[0:25:45.1] KRH: Thank you Tim. And I know it is hard in December, but start putting the money aside if you haven’t started doing that. The runway is starting to close in, so go ahead. December is a nice extra little bit of a challenge to top that student loan payment aside into a savings account, but getting back into the habit is important so it’s definitely time to do that.

[0:26:12.2] TU: Absolutely. You say that so gently but it’s so important. Yes, we need to be getting back into the rhythm, the habits and get ready for what we’ve got. A little bit of time to get ready but it’s going to be here before we know it. So, Kelly, thanks again. And to the community, we really appreciate you joining and we hope you have a great rest of your day.

[0:26:25.7] KRH: Thanks Tim.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:26:27.3] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 233: Tax Moves to Consider Before 2022

Posted on by yfpadmin

Tax Moves to Consider Before 2022

On this episode, sponsored by APhA, Paul Eikenberg, YFP CFO and Director of YFP Tax, discusses how pharmacists can optimize their tax strategy.

Episode Summary

As we approach the end of the year and will soon enough find ourselves amid tax filing season, it’s a great time to revisit end-of-year tax strategies and considerations to optimize your tax situation. Today on the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, host Tim Ulbrich sits down with IRS enrolled agent and our own Director of YFP Tax, Paul Eikenberg, to discuss how pharmacists can optimize their tax strategy. Paul has supported hundreds of pharmacists in tax filing and tax planning to maximize their deductions and avoid overpaying. Today he kicks us off with the important distinction between tax planning and preparation, as well as why it’s worthwhile to understand key numbers such as marginal tax rates and AGI. You’ll hear him describe common tax blunders he sees pharmacists making and how to avoid them, including realizing an unexpected balance due on April 15. We cover some of the factors that contribute to that making non-qualified IRA or 401(k), 403(b) contributions and missing key deductions in credits, and the listener gets a look into the two exciting tax services we have on offer to help pharmacists looking for a tax preparation and/or tax strategy and planning solution. To top it off, we’ve even got a comprehensive tax checklist for you to get the absolute maximum out of your tax benefits. This is one conversation you don’t want to miss.

Key Points From This Episode

Paul and Tim catch us up with some exciting happenings in the YFP tax team.
Understanding the important difference between tax preparation and tax planning.
Differentiating your marginal tax rate and effective tax rate as a decision-making tool.
Paul explains the implications of AGI and how to arrive at that number.
Touching on the complicated system of student loans and pursuing loan forgiveness.
Some common tax blunders that you should look out for!
Key credits and deductions that you might not be taking advantage of.
What is going to be available moving forward with child-care and dependent care.
Explaining donor-advised funds and a potential strategy around bunching.
Two exciting tax services: reporting only and year-round planning and reporting

Highlights

“Make sure your tax exposure and your tax strategy line up with your financial goals. The biggest thing that tax planning really does is provide some peace of mind that you’re not making mistakes and that you’re making good decisions.” — Paul Eikenberg [0:08:05]

“Our best practices with YFP is to advise people to, instead of putting the money in the [retirement] funds during the course of the year, put it into an investment account.” — Paul Eikenberg [0:23:26]

“The rules on business expenses are, they have to be business-related, ordinary, necessary, and not extravagant. Ordinary is, if someone else is doing the same type of business, they’re going to have the same type of expenses necessary.” — Paul Eikenberg [0:25:09]

“The donor-advised fund makes it easy to [maximize tax benefits]. Then, you can spread that money out and make the donations from the fund you control. It’s like having your own foundation.” — Paul Eikenberg [0:34:36]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

End of Year Tax Checklist

Project your income, taxes, and withholding
Maximize your HSA contribution
Know your FSA carryover limits and spend accordingly
Consider 529 account contributions
Document side business expenses – Mileage Logs**
Have and execute a charitable contribution strategy
Correct any over contributions to 401K/403B/IRAs
Manage your capital gains
Look for IRS Letter 6419 Advanced Child Credit & Notice 1444-C
Have a system for organizing your tax documents
Select & engage your tax preparation method

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week I had the chance to sit down with YFP Director of Tax and CFO, Paul Eikenberg to discuss how pharmacists can optimize their tax strategy. Paul’s an IRS enrolled agent and has supported hundreds of pharmacists in both tax filing and tax planning to maximize their deductions and avoid overpaying. As we approach the end of the year and will soon enough find ourselves in the midst of tax filing season, it’s a great time to revisit end-of-year strategies and considerations to optimize your tax situation.

Some of the highlights from my interview with Paul include him explaining the important distinction between tax planning and preparation, why it’s important to understand key numbers such as marginal tax rates and AGI. Hearing him describe common tax blunders he sees pharmacists making and how to avoid them. Some of these blunders include realizing an unexpected balance due on April 15, and some of the factors that contribute to that making non-qualified IRA or 401(k), 403(b) contributions, and missing key deductions in credits. Finally, hearing Paul’s end of the year to-do list, your notes already prepared and ready to go for you to take action.

Before we hear from today’s sponsor and then jump into the show, at YFP, we know that filing your taxes and figuring out how to optimize your tax strategy can be overwhelming and stressful. That’s why YFP Tax has opened up its tax filing services to 125 additional pharmacist households this year. Unlike other firms, YFP tax isn’t focused on just completing your tax return. Instead, they provide value care and attention to you and your taxes. Because they work specifically with pharmacists, they’re familiar with aspects of your financial plan to have an impact on your taxes like student loans, benefit packages, side hustles and more. You can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/tax to learn more and to put your name on the waitlist. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/tax.

Okay. Let’s hear from today’s sponsor and then we’ll jump into my interview with Paul Eikenberg.

Today’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast is brought to you by the American Pharmacists Association. APhA has partnered with Your Financial Pharmacist to deliver personalized financial education benefits for APhA members. Throughout the year, APhA will be hosting a number of exclusive webinars covering topics like student loan debt payoff strategies, home buying, investing, insurance needs and much more. Join APhA now to gain premier access to these educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APhA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code, YFP. Again, that’s pharmacist.com/join using the coupon code, YFP.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:54] TU: Paul, glad to have you back on the show.

[00:02:57] PE: Hey, Tim. Good to be here.

[00:02:59] TU: Question, are you ready for another tax season? Feels like we – you, really, and the team just wrapped up things from last year. It’s been a busy year, right?

[00:03:07] PE: That’s how it feels too. We just finished October 15th, the last of our extensions and are trying to build the capacity this year to do all our internal returns and 125 more.

[00:03:22] TU: That’s exciting stuff. In addition to the work that you’re doing as the director of tax and leading that initiative at YFP, the team is also growing. We’ve got some folks that are coming on board. Tell us about those exciting developments.

[00:03:34] PE: Aurielle was coming on board full time this year. She worked with us last year as a contractor and I’ve worked with her in a previous business venture. Really excited to have her come on board, and help smooth out the processes and build capacity to do more returns. Then Ryan Griffin, who’s a pharmacist and loves to do taxes on the side is coming back this year and working with us again. We’ll be adding some – one or two other contractors that we’ve talked to this year are interested in joining our team. It should be a good group to increase the capacity and help us do a better job for more people.

[00:04:23] TU: I know. Tim and I are super grateful for your contributions to what has made the service that it is today for the other folks you mentioned, Arielle and Ryan. We really believe that tax for obvious reasons, we’re going to talk about much that on the show today is such an important thread of the financial plan. That tax planning and preparation is really best if we embed that into the financial plan and can consider that, both looking back in the filing as we’ll talk about, but also in more the planning, and look ahead and the strategy side of it.

That’s the theme for today’s show, how to optimize your tax situation. Great time, as I mentioned in the introduction, end of the calendar year. Some opportunities to wrap some things up, get some momentum in the new year. We’re going to talk through some of the differences of tax planning and prep, key numbers and terms to understand, some commonly made blunders. We’re certainly not going to address all of these. Some strategies and then a checklist of things to do before the end of the year.

Paul, kick us off. I think, really, with this first part which is the theme, as we think of the others, and this really highlights the intentionality of thinking about taxes. Not only looking backwards, and doing the filing, and the preparation, but also more of the proactive planning. Tell us about the difference between tax planning, tax preparation and why that difference is so important.

[00:05:44] PE: Tim, the way I like to look at it, tax preparation is just historically recording what happened last year. We as tax preparers take your information, prepare a return. There’s not much of an opportunity to have an impact on your tax liability. There may be a couple of things we can do when preparing your taxes that you can adjust before April 15th. But it’s really difficult to have much impact on the tax liability during that period of time. You have to understand that when you’re dealing with tax preparation, it’s really deadline driven. When we get into February, March, and April, we’re working every hour trying to complete returns, chase down information, review and file.

There’s not as much time to pay attention to what could have been done, look at future strategies and really think through how to improve the situation. One of the frustrating things on our end is, when you’re preparing a tax return, that’s the time a lot of problems pop up, and are discovered and it’s too late to fix a lot of times there.

You contrast that to thinking about tax planning’s forward focus. For our clients, we do a lot of tax projections in the middle of the year or towards the end of the year. That’s a great time to look for things that can have more impact on tax liability. It’s just like financial planning. If you’re making the right decisions, they compound over the course of years. Tax savings builds, it helps put more money in your investment and savings accounts. It can help you leverage the income you have if you’re making the right tax choices. The best time to do that is not during the tax filing season.

From planning, we help people avoid common mistakes. Make sure your tax exposure and your tax strategy lines up with your financial goals. The biggest thing that tax planning really does is provide some peace of mind that you’re not making mistakes and that you’re making good decisions about how you’re approaching all t he tools you have to mitigate your taxes.

[00:08:27] TU: Yeah. I think our community will appreciate working and living in the healthcare environment, where we see the importance and value of preventative health care versus that that’s more reactive. We think about tax preparation, got to do it, it’s required, right? Or else the IRS is going to come knocking on the door. The tax planning may not have that same priority in terms of that requirement, but so important in terms of that strategy and what that can mean to the rest of the financial plan. As well as Paul mentioned, the peace of mind.

Paul, as we think about key numbers that folks need to know, certainly there’s a lot that we could talk about here. But I think starting off with differentiating marginal tax rate and effective tax rate is really important because these are terms that we throw around. We’ll talk about AGI here in a moment, adjusted gross income. But I think when people are hearing about certain strategies and benefits, or maybe they’ve been told by a preparer before about what their tax rates are, may not have a full understanding of what that term means. And then what the implications are of how to use that or how helpful it is or is not as a decision-making tool. Define for us marginal tax rate versus effective tax rate, and specifically why that marginal rate is an important decision-making tool.

[00:09:40] PE: Well, let’s start with marginal rate. The marginal tax rate, think of it about as the percentage of tax you’re paying on the last dollar you earned and the next dollar you earned. There’s a lot of misconceptions on how the tax brackets work. Most pharmacists are in the 24% or 32% tax bracket. That doesn’t mean you pay 24% on all your income. You’re being taxed at 10% for some, 12% for the next layer, 22% for another layer and then you’re paying 24%. They average out to what’s commonly known as an effective tax rate. Think of effective as the average tax rate.

But the marginal rates, really the number when I talk to people, that’s the number I want them to remember. What is your marginal tax rate? Because that’s your decision-making number. If you want to make a charitable contribution, if you’re in a 24% federal tax bracket, $100, that’s deductible to a charity, you’re going to save $24 in tax. It helps make decisions on traditional versus Roth contributions. You’ll understand what the tax ramifications are.

Today, HSA contributions would save you in taxes. Just having that marginal tax rate, knowing what it is helps make a lot of decisions on earning more money, or how the deduction is going to affect you. When I talk to our clients, that’s one of the most important numbers I want them to remember is where they fall in that marginal tax rate.

[00:11:33] TU: In ballpark numbers, Paul, knowing that, of course, it’s dependent upon one situation, whether or not they live in a state where there is tax or is not. Ballpark numbers, what do you see in terms of many of the clients from a tax perspective of the marginal rate and the effective tax rate?

[00:11:52] PE: When we looked at federal alone, a high percentage of our clients are in the 24% marginal tax rate and see their effective rate in the 17%, 18% area. State taxes, you can live in Florida, Tennessee, Texas and you have zero income tax. California, you see people 9%, 10%. Maryland, when you add in the local tax, you’re up to eight. It’s everywhere between 0% and 10% for the states. You need to calculate that in with the federal for really what your marginal rates are going to be.

[00:12:40] TU: I think the other key number for folks to make sure we’re defining and thinking about the implications would be AGI. When I think of AGI, everyone has likely heard of whether it’s considerations around student loan payments, or phase-outs for certain credits or deductions. Often, those are referenced according to someone’s AGI and the phase-outs based on AGI or adjusted gross income. Paul, tell us what is the AGI. How does that connect to one’s income and what’s subtracted from the income to come up with the AGI and then some of the reasons why that AGI number is so important?

[00:13:18] PE: Let’s talk about what the income is. Gross income, you add all your wages, dividends, interest, if you have capital gains, side business income, any money you’re bringing in, typically gross income. They’re what’s known as above-the-line deductions. The most common things we see are HSA contributions, 401(k), 403(b) contributions. They reduce your AGI. Reduce that gross income, gives you the adjusted gross income. Teachers will see some educator expenses. Residents will see student loan interest that can come off of there. But those are commonly referred to as above-the-line reductions and affect the AGI. You take all that income, reduce them by the above-the-line deductions and you get your AGI.

Now, where we see that really come into effect are student loans, where payments are based on income and will also lower AGI, lowers your payments. Lower payments increase the value of the forgiveness program. They do have a big effect on a lot of pharmacists. It’s a number that we work with people to manage as best they can. Make sure they’re using all their tools to take advantage of those programs.

The other thing you’ll hear a lot are phase-outs. This year, the child credits get reduced when a married filing joint couple’s AGI is above $150,000. You start to phase out there. Child care credits, start phasing out or phasing down. They don’t phase out at $125,000 AGI.

There are a lot of things we see our clients are affected by AGI. There are cases where contributing a little bit more to an HSA or make more into a retirement program can not only affect that marginal rate you’re paying, but can substantially affect some of the credits that would be available to you. The other thing that AGI is a factor in, is your long-term capital gain rates. It’s an important number to manage and work into your tax strategy.

[00:16:03] TU: Yeah. Paul, a couple of things I want to highlight that you said that are really important. Your comment just a moment ago about depending on where you’re at with AGI and some of the phase-outs, it might be helpful to make an HSA contribution, 401(k), 403(b). Obviously, depends on someone’s personal situation. But that highlights what we just talked about a few moments ago of really the differentiation between the preparation and the planning.

If we’re simply going through that preparation and we realize what’s been – and perhaps it’s too late, maybe we make an adjustment for the future. But if we’re planning and proactively looking ahead, we have an opportunity to project where those rates are going to be. And then what are some of those levers that we could pull to really maximize that situation.

The other thing I want to mention to make sure we don’t gloss over, and I think we’ve done so much of this at clients at YFP Planning that perhaps we take it for granted, is that student loans for good reasons, they’re very complicated. Unfortunately, the system is probably more complicated than it needs to be. Tax preparers and accountants may not necessarily be really well versed in student loan repayment strategies, and the intersection of the student loan repayment strategy and tax planning and preparation. We’ve gotten that feedback so many times, of folks that may have talked with someone else and didn’t understand the student loans or got conflicting advice. I think, really making sure for folks specifically that are pursuing loan forgiveness, that you’re really considering how that tax strategy is interfacing with that student loan repayment. Because there are some situations that, filing separately versus filing jointly, that may not be intuitive from a traditional tax planning preparation standpoint, do make sense when it comes to loan forgiveness.

[00:17:41] PE: Yeah. It will almost always cost you more in taxes to file separate. But there are so many cases that we deal with the savings and the benefits on a student loan, just more than make up for it. Substantially more than make up for it in some cases.

[00:18:00] TU: Next thing. Paul. I want to pick your brain on was, some common tax blunders that you’ve seen and things that folks may be on the lookout for. We’re not going to go through an exhaustive list or we’d be here for a long time. But a few things I want to highlight, probably one of the more common things I think we see, and perhaps leads to some headaches for those that are going through the filing phase, is realizing that they were under withholding. Tell us about that, Paul, and why that may be and some of the things that folks can be thinking about to prevent that.

[00:18:33] PE: Yeah. It’s one of the more painful things for both the tax preparer, and the client is when you say, “I know you’ve got a $5,000 refund last year, but this year, you owe $5,000 in taxes.” We see big swings when maybe you got married this year, and your W-2 is now filled out, married, filing joint and it’s not filled out in a way that your employer takes into account your spouse’s income. If you switch jobs in the middle of the year, sometimes the W-4 just don’t match up and you’re under withheld. If you’re working side jobs, if you’re not completing that tax withholding form correctly, you’re employed, both your employers are not taking into account the wages you’re earning at that secondary job.

Multiple jobs, spouse’s earnings not being calculated in are common things. The other items that kind of cause and contribute to that is, maybe you have self-employment earnings and you’re not only got income tax on that, but you’ll have the self-employment tax. If you had capital gains or stock options, sometimes those are going to sneak up and cause a tax liability you weren’t thinking about. This year, you’ve really got to be prepared in thinking about, if you receive the advanced child credits since July, and your AGI is over that phase out, some of that money or all of that money is going to have to be repaid. There’s a chance you weren’t eligible for any of that. You really need to be prepared if you’re getting it and you know your income, your AGI is going to be over $150,000. You should be thinking through whether that might be causing you a problem.

[00:20:36] TU: We’re running out of time, Paul, for folks to opt-out of any of those payments, have they been receiving them.

[00:20:41] PE: December is the only one you can opt-out now, and I believe it’s November 29 that you have to do it by. Just be aware of that one hit. That could cause some unexpected problems.

[00:20:56] TU: Better to find out in November, December than March or April.

[00:20:59] PE: Yeah. That’s what we always say is, if we can identify the issue in October, November, we have six months to be ready for the tax bill. If you find out in March, we’ve got to be ready to pay it right then and there.

[00:21:16] TU: That being a common blunder, unexpected balance due on April 15 as you mentioned, less than ideal for both the preparer and the client. The other bucket here would be non-qualified IRA or 401(k), 403(b) contribution. So tell us more about how this happens and some of the headaches this can create.

[00:21:32] PE: Switching jobs or having multiple jobs is where we’ll see the 401(k), 403(b) contributions go over that 19-5 maximum. A lot of people just put the percentage in. If you work for the same employer all year, they usually stop at the maximum. But if you’ve got multiple employers, they are unaware of what amount the other one has put into it.

Usually, if you discover this before December 31, it’s not that difficult to have the funds given back. But W-2s can be adjusted properly and you avoid some of the more difficult and time-consuming ways to correct it, if you don’t discover it till the end of following season. Knowing that it’s a problem before the end of the year and getting it corrected can save penalties and save you from having to go through the amended returns.

With IRAs, with pharmacists, the phase-outs, it’s more than likely you’re phasing out on your ability to do traditional IRAs. There are limitations on SEP IRAs. There’s a misunderstanding of what the rules are on them. Especially the SEPs, you really don’t know until you do your tax return. How much you can contribute to a SEP is very common. We see people contribute to traditional IRAs. SEPs that are over what they can contribute. Roths as well, and there’s a lot of hoops to jump through to correct it after the fact, where it’s better – our best practices with YFP is to advise people to, instead of putting the money in the funds during the course of the year, put it into an investment account. When we get an exact number, which you qualify for, you’re able to put those in the IRAs up till April 15th and we can deal with actual numbers rather than guessing what you qualify for.

[00:23:53] TU: Then having to correct it later, potentially.

[00:23:55] PE: Yeah. We’ve had people that have had to file two, three years of abundant returns to correct over contributions to IRAs.

[00:24:06] TU: The third bucket of potential blunders would be missing deductions and credits, of course, that may be applicable to folks. There’s lots of deductions and credits to consider, whether that’s childcare credits, adoption credits, tuition deductions, property taxes, charitable contribution. We’re not going to go through all of those. But Paul, are there some of these that jump out of common ones that we see folks overlooking or not taking advantage of?

[00:24:31] PE: Yeah, refis in home purchases. A lot of times when you’re purchasing a home, you’re paying your property taxes in advance and that gets overlooked frequently. Are the property taxes paid at the time of settlement? If you did refi or have a home purchase, you want to have that settlement sheet available to go through and see if it helps with itemized deduction. Side business expenses, if you have a side hustle, document everything you think is a legitimate expense.

The rules on business expenses are, they have to be business-related, ordinary, necessary, and not extravagant. Ordinary is, if someone else is doing the same type of business, they’re going to have the same type of expenses necessary. If you think of it as anything you are spending to get customers or grow how much business they do with you, there’s the argument that that’s a legitimate business expense. Their cell phone, internet cost, some of your continuing education, are all things that can legitimately be switched to a schedule C business. Not all of it, but a percentage of it that you can make a case or business expenses.

Then, one of the things, if you’re not maxing out your HSA, you should be matching out your HSA. People leave dollars on the table with the HSA contributions.

[00:26:15] TU: I think it’s just a good reminder, Paul, as you mentioned, side hustle expenses and the guidelines in the IRS that they have to be business-related, ordinary, necessary, not extravagant. We’re seeing more and more clients at YFP Planning, more folks in the YFP community that are pursuing side hustles or generating additional income from the W-2 income. Certainly, something to be thinking about and planning for, again, hopefully proactively. Which is a good segue into talking about some strategies to optimize one’s tax situation. You’ve already mentioned a couple and we’ve talked about some of these at length on other episodes.

You mentioned HSAs as low-hanging fruit. We’ve talked before about HSAs in the podcast. We’ll link to that in the show notes. You mentioned the side hustle expenses, and we talked briefly about the child tax credit. A couple others that I would like to focus on, Paul, starting with the child care credit, since this was an increase that we saw in 2021 and may be applicable for many that are listening. Tell us about that child care credit and the changes that we’ve seen this year.

[00:27:15] PE: Yeah. This was part of the recovery program. Right now, it’s only been increased for 2021. But you know, we expect that the next legislation that comes through is going – this is going to be a prime factor in it. Child care costs in 2020, you were able to take a credit for up to $3,000 for one child, $6,000 for two or more children. Most pharmacists qualified for 20% credit on those. Two kids, you are qualified to get up to a $1,200 credit. 2021, the amount that the credit is based on it is now $8,000 for one child, or $16,000 for two or more. Maximum credit is $3,200 for most pharmacists this year. For the child care credit, in 2021, you’re going to be looking at probably a 20% credit on $16,000 of expenses, $3,200 hours. Most pharmacists with two children or more. That’s what’s going to be available.

It’s a substantial increase in the amount of credit that’s available and it reflects – it better reflects the actual cost of childcare that we see, then that $3,000 and $6,000 power plant. That’s going to be a good benefit to a lot of the clients we work with. The other thing to look at is the dependent care FSA. That’s a great benefit that we see available to pharmacists that a lot of them are taking advantage of. But you can shift. The limit was $5,000. It was increased to a maximum of $10,500 that can be taken out of your wages and reimburse you for the child care expenses. The advantage of doing it this way, over taking the credit is, if you’re in a higher marginal tax rate, then the 20%. It’s better to have it in the dependent care FSA.

The other big advantage there, two advantages is, it reduces your AGI. The money that is withheld from the W-2 is not subject to the FICA tax. You could save another 7.65% there. It’s a great program if your employer offers it. Not all employers have increased the limit to $10,500. You really need to check what’s available to you through your employer. But if you have it, and you’re paying child care expenses, take advantage of it.

[00:30:09] TU: I’ve heard you say before, Paul, this is one of the more underutilized benefits that we see. Obviously, for those listening that have children, between the childcare credit, the dependent care FSA changes and the child tax credit, lots to consider here. And making sure we’re taking advantage of some of those opportunities.

[00:30:24] PE: Definitely.

[00:30:25] TU: The other thing too, and we won’t go into detail on today’s show, because we’ve talked about it several different times in the podcast related to 529s. But again, on the theme here of children and the context of college savings, that’s another optimization strategy to consider. Obviously, taking advantage of some of the state tax considerations and benefits there. We’ll link to previous content and 529 in the show notes.

Paul, I do want to wrap up this section on benefits talking about a topic that we have not talked about in detail on this show. Tim Baker and I did a question on ask YFP CFP on donor-advised funds, but we didn’t get into the strategy of bunching and some of the nuances of the donor-advised fund. For those that are looking at charitable giving opportunities, tell us more about what is a donor-advised fund and what is the potential strategy around bunching versus not bunching.

[00:31:19] PE: Donor-advised fund is an account you can set up, [inaudible 0:31:26] have an account. There’s a lot of faith-based organizations that have donor-advised funds available. But basically, you make your charitable contribution to that fund. Then you’re the one that controls how it is distributed from there, and it can be distributed over a period of years. It’s tax-deductible in the year you put money in. But it’s an opportunity, it gives you some tax advantages and gives you an opportunity to be more strategic about how you give.

One of the things that it does is, it makes donating appreciated assets easy. I have a fun setup and I can donate stock that I’ve had a significant gain on. When I do that, I’m not paying capital gains tax on the stock I’m donating. Let’s say I paid $5,000 for a stock that’s now worth $10,000. I get a $10,000 charitable deduction when I switch that over. I don’t pay $5,000 capital gain tax. It is one of the best ways to maximize the power of your donations to do more with less.

Donor-advised funds makes that easy and all that money is deductible when it goes in there. Now, that becomes a big advantage when you start talking about a bunching strategy. A lot of people, when the 2018 tax change came in and the standard deduction was raised, are kind of on the edge of being able to itemize or not itemize. When we talk about a bunching strategy, it’s, let’s say bunching charitable contributions in odd years. Instead of making a $5,000 contribution in 2021 and 2022, I’ll make a $10,000 contribution to the donor-advised fund in 2021. I get all of that $10,000 deductible in that 2021 year. That may put me $5,000 over the itemized deduction limit. The next year I take a standard deduction.

It is possible, without changing the amount of money donated in those two years, that I get an additional $5,000 worth of the standard and itemized deduction added together for the two years. Could be as much as $5,000 more than if I donate the money $5,000 one year and $5,000 the next.

[00:34:28] TU: Just by grouping those together, the dollar amount didn’t change, but putting them together maximizes the tax benefits.

[00:34:35] PE: Yeah. The donor-advised fund makes it easy to do that. Then, you can spread that money out and make the donations from the fund you control. It’s like having your own foundation. There are a lot of different options out there. There’s different investment opportunities with the money in it. There can be minimums, some different costs. But you put money in there, the capital gains on money left in there grow without tax. We see people who have stock options that have gone through the roof, can really do an amount of good, and wind up 50 cents on a $1, sometimes, of being able to increase the value of their contributions by that much.

[00:35:29] TU: My hope, Paul as we’re hitting the surface on several different optimization strategies is that folks aren’t feeling overwhelmed, but hopefully an opportunity to say, “Wow! How can I better strategize my tax situation?” I think this again, comes full circle and highlights the benefit of really more of the strategy side of the tax binding in addition to making sure we get that preparation taken care of.

We’ve got a checklist of things that we think you should be thinking about before the end of the year. We’re going to link to these in the show notes. These include much of what we talked about on the show around HSAs, and thinking about FSA carryover limits, 529 contributions, side business expenses, capital gains, preparing for the tax preparation phase, organizing documents. We’re going to put that list in the show notes, which will hopefully help wrap up the year and head into the new year with some confidence. I think that’s a good segue, Paul into what we are offering at YFP tax as two different options to help pharmacists that are looking for a tax preparation, and/or tax strategy and planning solution.

Paul, tell us more about our two options, the reporting only, and the year-round planning and reporting, and what folks can expect from that service and where one or the other may be a good fit.

[00:36:47] PE: We kind of talked about in the beginning, the tax preparation reporting only is just doing your historical tax return and meeting with you and just talking about is there anything you can do that may change the tax situation for the year. The reporting only is good for, if all your income is coming from W-2, if you don’t have a business or planning on having one soon, don’t have real estate income or any substantial retirement or investment accounts, at this point, all your income comes from inside the country, that may be a good fit for you. You’re really not getting the expert advice, you’re getting preparation and kind of basic information on what happened last year and not so much of the future. That’s a fee. We’ll have a base fee, and if you require additional schedules, there may be additional cost if you move from one state to another, maybe some additional costs. It’s more flat lay transaction, we prepare your taxes.

What we’re introducing this year is a year-round planning, which, if you’re self-employed, if you’re thinking about starting a business, have that side business, if you get K-1s from partnerships or LLC, real estate holdings, if your investments have grown and your retirement accounts are nearing that $100,000 mark, maybe there’s things that you’ll have options that somebody else may not. Multiple streams of income, income from outside the US, these are all things that probably point you in the direction of needing a year-round planner.

The expert advice will have a bigger effect on your situation, and having a long-term partner to help you reach your goals. That’s kind of what we’re positioning to work with you on a continuous basis. When we do this, we’ll meet with you, do the taxes and the tax review. We’ll talk about the upcoming years as well as last year. We’ll meet with you during the course of the year to do a projection of where you are and talk about things that we can do in the third quarter, fourth quarter to prepare and make sure we’re ready for the following year. With that, we’ll have a team available when you have questions during the course of the year to answer those questions. That is where we’re geared to have the most impact for clients and pharmacists that want to work with us. I think that we’re well situated and prepared to be a long-term partner and that’s what we’re looking to do.

[00:39:54] TU: Again, two options we have, as Paul outlined, the reporting only and the year-round planning and reporting. More information about both, you can find at yourfinancilpharmacist.com/tax. We’re excited to be opening up the tax services to 125 pharmacist households. First come first serve. Many may already be aware that we do tax planning preparation for those that are clients of YFP planning. We’re going to be opening up these 125 spots to those that are not currently clients as we’ll be doing that work already for those that are clients. Process works and go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/tax to learn more information. You can join the waitlist.

Early January, we’ll be sending out an engagement letter. You can then upload your documents, complete a questionnaire. We are a paperless tax processing and system. Then from there, there’ll be a completion of a preliminary return and then an opportunity to review that information, sign it and then e-file it.

More information in yourfinancialpharmacist.com/tax. Paul, grateful for your time, expertise contributions on the show and looking forward to the upcoming tax season.

[00:41:02] PE: Thanks, Tim.

[OUTRO]

[00:41:03] TU: Before we wrap up today’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, I want to again thank our sponsor, the American Pharmacists Association. APhA is every pharmacist ally advocating on your behalf to address the issues that are affecting you most, such as PBM, and payment reform, value over volume and provider status. Make sure to join a boulder APhA to gain premier access to financial educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APhA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code, YFP. Again, that’s pharmacist.com/join, using the coupon code, YFP.

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog post and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 232: How Mindfulness and Money Intersect with Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz

Posted on by yfpadmin

How Mindfulness and Money Intersect with Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz

On this episode, sponsored by Thoughtful Wills, Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz discusses the intersection between mindfulness and money.

About Today’s Guest

Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz is one of the first national board-certified health and wellness coaches in the United States. She received her coaching training through Duke (University) Integrative Medicine and served as an instructor in the advanced certification program. Cynthia offers training and coaching in mindfulness, health, and wellness on a private practice basis through Being in Balance Coaching.

Cynthia speaks frequently on topics related to mindfulness, resiliency and well-being, work/life integration, time management, and health behavior change. She also shares this information on her blog, Pharmacy Work/Life Matters (www.pharmacyworklifematters.com).

Cynthia has more than 20 years of experience in mindfulness-based practices. She has studied and attended trainings with a number of prominent teachers, including Jon Kabat-Zinn, Kristin Neff, Sharon Salzberg, Elisha Goldstein, Thich Nhat Hanh, and Pema Chödrön.

Cynthia received her pharmacy degree from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and completed a residency in hospital pharmacy at Rhode Island Hospital in Providence, Rhode Island. Before moving to Ann Arbor, Cynthia held increasingly responsible positions at several national pharmacy associations, including the American Society of Health-System Pharmacists, National Association of Chain Drug Stores, American Society of Consultant Pharmacists, and American Pharmacists Association.

Episode Summary

In the last few years, a much-needed light has shone on the issues of resilience, burnout, and wellbeing in the pharmacy industry and we are finally seeing strategies of mindfulness and meditation entering mainstream conversations in an impactful way. But can these practices extend into the realm of financial wellbeing too? Today we are honored to sit down with the enigmatic Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz, pharmacist, coach, consultant, and mindfulness expert, to discuss the intersection between mindfulness and money. A solopreneur, Cynthia has always had a personal interest in stress management, time management, and continuing education. In this conversation, she shares how her 20 years of training in mindfulness and meditation apply to her monetary plan and behaviors. The listener hears how her financial struggles early in her career led her to implement changes and behaviors she still depends on today, as well as a simple outline of how to practice meditation to stay in the present moment. Plus, we’ll touch on evaluating the root cause of overspending and over saving and why having a healthy balance is important. This crucial episode explores the intersection of pharmacy, mindfulness, neuroscience, and balanced living – and how the financial piece fits into all of that. Tune in to begin your mindful money journey today!

Key Points From This Episode

Getting to know Cynthia, starting with the pivots and arc of her career.
Discussing how her 20 years of mindfulness training began intersecting with pharmacy.
How the topics of burnout, resilience, and wellness have only recently gained traction.
Cynthia shares her turning point from irresponsible money management to intentionality.
Using the analogy of the Weight Watchers approach to get real with your spending.
A step-by-step outline of how she first took control of her finances.
How our relationship with money has changed in the age of automation and plastic.
Defining mindfulness and how meditation trains us to live in the present moment.
The various purposes and ways meditation can be practiced.
Debunking a common misconception about meditating.
Exploring different ways to use breathing as an anchor for your attention.
How mindfulness meditation is like a bicep curl.
How being present and mindful is key to making the right decisions with your money.
Peeling back the onion of our emotional baggage and unconscious script around money.
The importance of acknowledging our underlying fears and getting curious about them.
Dealing with the changing goalposts on the question, “Do I have enough?”
The concept of hedonic adaptation; we get used to what we already have.
Setting yourself up with a solid foundation and then giving yourself permission to spend.
Cynthia shares some resources from her website, and some exciting future offerings!

Highlights

“Think about mindfulness as the ability to pay attention to what is happening in the present moment.” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:25:12]

“About 50% of the time, we’re either thinking about things that have already happened, or we are planning or rehearsing for things that have yet to happen. Only about half of our time is focused on what’s actually happening right in front of us.” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:25:40]

“Shift your thinking about meditation. Think that the objective is that your mind is going to wander and your goal now is to notice that it’s wandered and to bring it back.” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:27:36]

“The idea is to train your attention. You sit in meditation, you focus on your breath, you realize that your thoughts have wandered away. That is your win. Your win is that you’ve noticed and then you return your attention, and then you wait, you notice again.” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:28:47]

“So much of what we do with money is automatic, unconscious, or conditioned.” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:30:44]

“You should have some amount of money that you feel comfortable setting aside, but that you are setting aside specifically for fun, for now, for doing things. Because you don’t want to get further along your life journey and regret not having done things.” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:42:10]

“Set yourself up with a solid foundation. But once you’ve got that foundation, give yourself the permission to have some enjoyment. Otherwise, what is all this for?” — Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz [0:43:21]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Cynthia’s Recommended Books

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had a chance to sit down with pharmacist, coach, consultant and mindfulness expert, Cynthia Knapp Dlugosz to discuss the intersection between mindfulness and money. Some of my favorite moments and takeaways from this episode include Cynthia sharing how her training in mindfulness and meditation applies to her financial plan and behaviors. Hearing her share how her financial struggles early in her career led her to implementing some changes and behaviors that she still depends on today, and evaluating the root cause of overspending and over saving and why having a healthy balance is important.

Before we hear from today’s sponsor and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one on one with more than 240 households in 40 plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one on one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor that helps make this show possible and then we’ll jump in my interview with Cynthia.

This week’s episode of your financial pharmacist podcast is sponsored by Thoughtful Wills. Let’s take a minute to hear from co-founder, Notesong.

[00:01:40] NT: Hi, there. I’m Notesong, one of the founders of Thoughtful Wills. Our law firm specializes in creating custom estate planning documents that are understandable. We’ve leveraged technology to offer a lower price point than most law firms. Honestly, it’s refreshingly affordable. As our client, you’re in the driver’s seat. We’re here if and when you have any questions or just want our input. Our explanatory worksheet and online interview gathers your answers whenever and wherever is most convenient for you.

As a busy mom of three sweet kids and two fluffy sheepdogs, I totally get it. Life is crazy busy. Who has the time? We designed our firm around that too and we poured our hearts into making our estate-planning process less of a hustle. I invite you to visit thoughtfullwills.com/yfp to learn more. Give us a jingle or drop us a note. We’d love to chat with you.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:39] TU: Cynthia, welcome to the show.

[00:02:40] CKD: I am so excited to be here with you today.

[00:02:44] TU: I am as well. Our paths have crossed several times over the last decade through various pharmacy circles. I’m grateful for the opportunity to talk with you about the work that you’re doing to explore the intersection of pharmacy, mindfulness, neuroscience, and balanced living and how the financial piece fits into all of that. Certainly, a very important topic. Before we jump into our discussion around mindfulness and money, tell us more about your career path in pharmacy, both the work you’ve done up until this point, and what you’re now doing with your blog, consulting, and mindfulness programs and coaching.

[00:03:18] CKD: Sure, thank you. Well, I got a pharmacy degree at the University of North Carolina and I came out of a bachelor’s degree program. Choices weren’t necessarily as clear cut back then. The residency programs were really just starting up and there was such a thing as a post-baccalaureate PharmD. A program that was an add-on after a bachelor’s in pharmacy. Not sure that I wanted to pursue the PharmD pathway at the time, I did a residency in what at the time was called Hospital Pharmacy. During the year of the residency, and then the few months that I worked as a staff pharmacist at the hospital, didn’t really think that was my calling.

Fortunately, though, while I was there, there was an ad in the newsletter for the American Society of Health System Pharmacists. They were looking for someone to join the editorial staff of AJHP. If there is one thing I am confident in, it is my editorial ability. I applied for that job, and was fortunate to get it and that moved me to the Washington DC area, to my initial job in a pharmacy, in one of the national pharmacy associations. And I spent then the next, oh gosh, 15 or so years working for various – probably closer to 20 years working for various national pharmacy associations. I worked first for AJHP, and then briefly with NACDS, and ASCP, the American Society of Consultant Pharmacist. Then finally with APHA.

It was while I was on staff with APHA that I met my husband on a parking lot shuttle bus at Dulles Airport. We got married, and he was at NIH wrapping up a fellowship and he took a position at the University of Michigan. That relocated me and him to Ann Arbor, Michigan, where I live now. At the time, this is the late ’90s, I was a telecommuter for a while to APHA. But I mentioned the year just because at that point, telecommuting wasn’t possible the way it is today. I did a lot of – it was like I had a remote office and I went to travel to headquarters maybe once every two months or so. But it was very challenging at the time being a member of a team but not being physically present with the team.

Then I took a brief detour with the University of Michigan College of Pharmacy as their director of experiential training, and decided that really wasn’t my calling. And ended up – this is, by the way, a very – I’m trying to make this as fast as possible, this summary. I ended up at that point making the decision to work on a freelance basis. At the time, I was able to work to do a lot of freelance work with APHA. When I had been a full-time staff person, I actually would manage some people who were working on a freelance basis. They would do a lot of the actual content development meant work on programs. I would manage that development. Now, I flipped to the other side. Now, I was the person developing much of the content and someone on staff was managing me.

Because of the contacts I had made along the way, and especially because I had a history, I neglected to mention that much of the work I did in various pharmacy associations was in the area of continuing education. Because of that background that I brought to freelancing, I was able to both work on, again, like this content development for programs, but also occasionally, associations would contract with me to manage some program of theirs. For example, right now, one of the things that I do is manage the student pharmacist P&T competition for the Academy of Managed Care Pharmacy.

I do a lot of different things. In my work, it’s just – I think the easiest way to describe it is that I have a freelance business, and I get contracted to do various kinds of projects, mostly in the area of continuing education. But as you see, that single sentence has a lot that goes into it. That is kind of where I am at now. I still do that kind of freelance work. Now, along the way, going back to the time that I still lived in Washington, DC, and before I started working on it as a solopreneur. I had always been very personally interested in stress management, and time management and in those areas. One of the things that I was introduced to, again, toward the late ’90s was this idea of mindfulness. At the time, kind of very closely connected with meditation. I was introduced to meditation and mindfulness. This is back at a time when many, many people, most people I encountered had no idea what I was talking about and meditation was something still a little bit off the beaten path.

[00:08:58] TU: There was no head headspace and tools, ain’t that right?

[00:09:01] CKD: There was no headspace. There’s none of that. As a matter of fact, most – when I wanted to learn more about this, when I wanted to get more training, to get more understanding, first of all, all of the training that I went through early on, really was rooted in the concepts of Buddhism. I differentiate it from not really what I think of as Buddhism as a religion, but Buddhism as a psychology. It was rooted in these Buddhist concepts, and I really had to go to retreat centers, and especially a place up in upstate New York called the Omega Institute, where I would go and study with teachers.

Over the years, I have studied with teachers like Jon Kabat-Zinn, who is very closely connected with mindfulness in our country, and who is the developer of Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction program. I’ve done workshops with – I’m dropping these names for any of your listeners, any of the listeners who might recognize them. I’ve done workshops with Pema Chödrön and with Thich Nhat Han. I dropped those names in because, at that time, those were really kind of the leading teachers in mindfulness. I mean, they still are. Then some American-based teachers like Sharon Salzberg and Jack Kornfield, so those teachers.

It wasn’t nearly as easy, or as – I want to say plentiful, the instruction available. I started doing that and again, pursued it over all the years, really on my own. And I would tell some friends about it, and I would make some offers here and there to speak about it. Say, “Hey! I think this is really – I think pharmacists would get a lot out of the information that I’m learning here in this – as I called it my parallel life.” I would be met sometimes with a little bit of eye-rolling or a little bit of like, “Yeah, sure.” Really, not much would come of it. But then I feel like it was around 2018, 2019 and I feel like all of a sudden, in pharmacy, we exploded with the concept of burnout, and resilience, and wellbeing. Not that it wasn’t always there, not that we weren’t paying attention to it. But to me, all of a sudden, it burst forth as an issue that many, many people were engaged with and paying attention to. I remember, at the time, around one particular meeting, I think, saying to a friend who was involved with the meeting, “What do you guys think I’ve been doing for 20 years? Like all of these practices that are right, that are being discussed now and starting to be shared. This is what I’ve been training in for 20 years.”

I have this strong background in mindfulness-based practices and the psychological underpinnings that go with it. And I have increasingly been trying to bring those forth to pharmacy audiences. I do that in one way, in the blog I started, Pharmacy Work Life Matters. And because now I feel like there is some interest. I am also starting to develop some e-courses related to some of these topics, that I hope to launch early in 2022.

[00:12:45] TU: Cynthia, I think you’re spot on. My observation matches yours, that burnout, resilience, wellness have become topics that – they’ve been there in the profession, but there’s definitely been a light that has been shown on those topics, and that we’re having more discussions around. We’re obviously very much interested in the work that we’re doing at YFP, around the connection of the financial part of that. I think and believe from personal experience in talking with many, many pharmacists all across the country, that there is a financial thread that certainly transcends some of these issues of burnout, resilience.

Your career story is relevant, because you shared with me previously that you felt like early in your career, you didn’t necessarily have a good approach to your financial plan, you weren’t necessarily as intentional as you would have liked to be, or at least looking backward, have liked to be. After being in a rut for a while, with spending more than – you ultimately were hoping to achieve the other goals you had in mind, that you had to make some drastic changes for how you are going to manage your money. That you still use some of those techniques today. Tell us more about that journey for you individually and how you realized that you weren’t on the right path financially.

[00:14:02] CKD: Absolutely. Tim, you introduced that topic very kindly. I will be far more blunt in my retelling of it. I got out of pharmacy school, as I said pharmacy school, did the residency. During pharmacy school and I would even say during the residency, I feel like I was kind of on top of – essentially on top of my money stuff. With the residency, kind of getting like that, like half pay I think of it as. Our salary was about half what we’d be making if we had been on a staff pharmacist. It wasn’t like I had a lot of room for error there.

Then I took the position and move to Washington DC and I think a switch clicked in my head that “Hey! I’m earning money now. I’m going to be – it’s my time to be spending money, finally. Finally, I’m a free and easy high earning gal.” I really wasn’t internalizing the reality that how much I was making at the time, while it was a very respectable salary was not a salary that went really, really, really far in Washington DC, especially as a single person. As a single person, I mean, I was living alone. No one was sharing the cost of rent, or food, or any of the basics that we all have.

Bluntly, I overspent and I got myself into – not only do I overspend, but I also didn’t really have a good system set up for keeping track of bills and paying bills. Now, we are scrolling ourselves back to a time where this was all paper-based, right? This I think is before the internet. Bills would come in, I would sort of get busy doing fun things, I would forget about them and then, oops, my phone would get turned off. Or I would realize, “Oh! Oops! I didn’t really plan well, this month. Let’s delay writing the check for this payment for a little while.” I don’t remember what it was, what like my rock bottom was, that point I hit that just made me say, “Okay. Something’s got to change.” But it was like, really, like there was a time when I realized that my internal discomfort about how I was managing this finally got the better of me.

What I ended up doing was a technique that – I don’t think I got it from Weight Watchers, because I don’t know that I had ever been enrolled in Weight Watchers at that point. But it’s a technique that is often shared with people who are trying to get better acquainted with – get on top of a situation that they’re in. That technique being that you write everything down. Just the way in Weight Watchers for many years, I think still you are encouraged to record everything that you eat. I started recording every single thing I spent money on. It, of course, quickly became apparent that I was spending too much. This is back in the days when this was mostly cash. I shouldn’t say mostly cash, it’s probably a mixture of cash, credit card, and cheque. But it was not nearly as fast or easy to spend money as it is today.

I started writing down everything that I spent. Then as the next step, I created a budget for myself, which was just the kind of budget that is recommended to create. It was putting down all of my mandatory expenses, the fixed expenses, I suppose. How much was my rent? How much should I budget for food? How much was phone and electric, and all of those? Then, what did I have left at the end of the month? I made the decision at that point that whatever was left at the end of the month was what I had to spend. There was no more spending ahead on a credit card. I treated all of my money essentially as cash. Then, I would never carry a credit card balance again. Actually, to this day, I have never carried a credit card balance. Because a credit card balance, let’s face it, it’s a loan, you’re essentially borrowing money that you don’t have, to pay off at a future time.

I don’t mean to summarily dismiss the utility of credit cards or why you might want to carry a balance. But for my purposes, it was just irresponsible money management. It took – back when I had joined Weight Watchers at one time, this is back at the time when Weight Watchers was encouraging the – essentially what was at that time the American Diabetes Association exchange approach to meal planning, where you counted everything you ate as like a certain number of proteins, a certain number of – I think they call them starches, vegetables, fats, fruits and you had this allotment every day. What you did at the time with Weight Watchers was, this lunch was two proteins, three starches and you colored in your little blocks. At the point that you ran out of blocks, you were done for the day.

During my first few weeks at Weight Watchers, I realized that I had eaten, as I viewed it, all of the good stuff by lunchtime. And all I was left for dinner was vegetables, and it had to be steamed vegetables because I’d already eaten all of my fats. I couldn’t put butter on or anything. After a couple of weeks of this, again, you have a little meeting with yourself in the mirror and say, “Cynthia, if you’re ever going to have anything other than steamed vegetables again, for dinner, you have to figure out a way to do this differently. You have to figure out how to apportion this stuff during the day.” It was the same thing for me with money management.

I realized, “Okay. You are trying to spend far more than you actually have available as your disposable income, so you’ve got to put the brakes on this.” Also, something I would say very, very importantly, that I did at the time, and I go back and I thank my younger self constantly for making this decision. Which is when I was putting – when I was tightening up on my finances like this, when I was really ratcheting down and saying, “Here is really what I have left for my fun stuff at the end of the month.” I made the decision, in addition to retire to 401k deductions, I made the decision to start saving 10% of – I can’t remember at the time if I did it as 10% of what was essentially like my net salary but before bills, or if it was 10% of what was left. But I have a feeling it was the higher one. In effect, I decided to kind of decrease my salary, my take-home pay by 10%. I just squirreled that away, I had – I set up automatic deductions to mutual funds and just never saw that money.

You can imagine over the years, that compounded quite a bit and I’ve been able to do so many – that money made so many things possible for me, because it was money just sitting there that I treated as money I didn’t even really have to spend. I did that as well. After a couple of months of that, I figured out a way to regulate myself to understand like, really, this is what you’re dealing with every month. Let’s just say it was, you have $50 per week to spend, just free and clear on whatever your heart desires here. This is clothes, this is entertainment, this is whatever, whatever might – what I think of as the discretionary spending.

I just had to, I was going to say resign myself to that, but it’s more that I had to align myself to that. Then along the way, as I would get raises, my little pot of money would pop up as I would then run through that budget cycle again. Oh, yay! My fixed expenses haven’t gone up that much, so now I have more discretionary. At least once a year, I would revisit this budget, I would keep really careful records, or at least save the record so I now knew on an annual basis, this is how much I spent for say, the phone. Which these days, I feel like phone costs are more fixed than they were back then. Back then, my bill would vary from month to month, because long distance was unpredictable.

I would figure out how much I had spent over the year, I would divide that by 12 and that’s what I would budget for the following year, and then keep a very close track on that to see. But it was very much this paying attention. Paying attention and understanding exactly what it was that I was dealing with, rather than hoping, which is what I had been doing. Just hoping that what I had was covering what I was doing. And it wasn’t. I had misplaced hope.

[00:23:26] TU: And intentionality just screams through that story of tracking, and paying attention, and automating your long-term savings. As you alluded to, some of that is, I think, more challenging today. When I hear the concept of mindfulness and money, I really think about this idea of making intentional choices that are not just happening. Ones that we think about, we perhaps feel on some level, we can attach an emotion to it. Let’s be real, this is so hard today with everything, essentially being automated and on some level, being transactional. That automation does have value if we can take advantage of it. Some of the things that come to mind, Cynthia is, plastic instead of cash. We never see or feel our paycheck, direct deposit, that we can connect it to the work that we’re doing. We’re saving for the future without the physical act of passing over money and making that conscious decision to delay something now for longer term. Even debt repayment, it’s a number on a screen. You alluded to me before in a conversation that you have a strategy to learn to pause, and not just spend, or save or whatever we’re working on and to make financial decisions in a way that are intentional, that we’re thinking about it and we’re experiencing it.

Tell us more by what you mean by that and if there’s a strategy that you employ for how to actually do that in a day like we’re in today, where so much of this is happening automatically and so quickly.

[00:25:01] CKD: Absolutely. That is, in essence what mindfulness is. I’m not going to offer up any of the official definitions of mindfulness right now. I’d say, think about mindfulness as the ability to pay attention to what is happening in the present moment, maybe elaborating a little bit on this concept of present moment. Our minds naturally wander into the past or into the future. If you ever sit and think about or try to notice what’s happening in your head, there was one study that characterized it that probably about 50% of the time, we’re either thinking about things that have already happened, or we are planning or rehearsing for things that have yet to happen. Only about half of our time is focused on what’s actually happening right in front of us.

If you think about mindfulness then as the ability to be able to focus your attention on what is happening in the present moment, and to notice that your mind has wandered off somewhere else and to bring it back to this focus on the present moment. That is what, to me, that is what meditation trains. It’s not the only thing meditation does. Meditation can have a lot of different purposes and can be practiced in many, many different ways. I believe that for most people, especially most people who are starting out with meditation, unless they are specifically seeking, say spiritual enlightenment, or they are specifically practicing loving, kindness, meditation for various reasons – the most useful application of meditation is meditation that teaches us to notice when our thoughts have wandered, and to return our attention to a point of focus.

If there is one common misconception I encounter when I talk with people about meditation, it is the idea that the goal of meditation is to make your mind go blank or to try to keep any thoughts from coming into sit in this kind of blissful, no thoughts arriving state. And then people get very, very discouraged. They get discouraged when they realize that they’re sitting in meditation and their minds have wandered. They feel like a failure, “I can’t do this. I’m no good at this.” Well, so then what I would say to you, Tim, and what I would say to anyone listening is, shift your thinking about meditation. Think that the objective is that your mind is going to wander and your goal now is to notice that it’s wandered and to bring it back.

Typically, the traditional focus of attention is the breath. That is typically the focus of attention, because our breath is always with us. There are different places where you can experience breath. You might feel the sensation of breath entering your nose, or you might focus on the exhalation and the feel of breath, say like at the top of your lip, or you might focus on just your – as we say in yoga and in meditation, like the belly. Your belly rising and falling. You don’t just have to focus on one thing. You can even count your breaths. You can make it a more cognitive thing. If you’re having trouble with the sensations.

That’s why the breath is often offered up as the first point of focus. You focus attention on the breath and you can find these kinds of meditations in Headspace, in Calm, I’m sure, in any of the online apps. You can find, I mean, in any of the apps, you can also find them online, in many different places. The idea is to train your attention. You sit in meditation, you focus on your breath, you realize that your thoughts have wandered away. That is your win. Your win is that you’ve noticed and then you return your attention, and then you wait, you notice again. As meditation teacher Sharon Salzberg has said, “It doesn’t matter how many times your mind wanders, what matters is how many times you notice and bring it back.”

Then, what you’re doing in meditation – now meditation is more kin to a bicep curl, let’s say. You are training a particular thing. Like with a bicep curl, you’re making your bicep stronger. So that when you are not at the gym or holding a weight in your hand, you will be better equipped to lift something heavy or whatever else your bicep will do for you. The same thing now with meditation, by sitting in meditation, which can – there’s actually a study that just came out this week. Ten minutes a day is a fine amount of time for this kind of formal practice. You are now strengthening your ability during the day to realize that you’ve been carried off somewhere or to realize that your thoughts are not in the present moment.

One quote that I will share with you is from a psychologist named Miles Neil, who has said that “Mindfulness can help us naturally resist the pull of our automatic, unconscious, or conditioned patterns of thought, emotion, and action.” I’ll say that again really quickly, “Mindfulness can help us naturally resist the pull of our automatic, unconscious, or conditioned patterns of thought, emotion, and action.” That to me, is where now we have mindfulness intersecting with money management. Because so much of what we do with money is automatic, unconscious or conditioned. With automatic and unconscious, as you mentioned, there are things we do out of habit. There are things that happen that we’re not even paying attention to these days, especially as you so aptly noted.

We also bring forth with us from childhood really conditioned patterns around money. We all have grown up with money attitudes and those can’t help but affect the way we manage money as adults. Mindfulness can help us realize that we have either started to get – we have fallen into an automatic habit or that something’s happening that we’re not even paying attention to. For example, we are about to – we might notice we are about to hit, click yet again on amazon.com. Not like I’m speaking from experience here, or anything. We maybe will notice, though, that we are about to one click and we can insert a pause. We bring our attention back and we say, “Wait! Okay. Hold on. What’s about to happen? Is this really what I want to do?” If for no other reason than to potentially save yourself a trip out to Kohl’s or Whole Foods or wherever you need to dump off your return these days?

[00:32:15] TU: Yeah. I think so as you’re talking, I’m reflecting on how exhausting this internal dialogue can be. You mentioned minds naturally wandering, you mentioned a study that 50% of the time or so maybe we’re present. I was thinking about financially, that seems generous. I think that because of some of the emotional baggage, whether that’s from childhood, money scripts that we carry, whether it’s societal pressures around money. I think it’s even maybe that much more difficult. I was thinking about, what are some of the things in the last 24 hours that have been on my mind financially, and things that were coming to mind questions were – just being aware of them like, are we saving enough for retirement? Or, counterpoint, maybe are we saving too much at the expense of experiences and enjoying the present moment? Should we be paying off the mortgage fast? Are we investing in enough experiences for our family? Are we on track with our kid’s college expenses? What’s the game plan for the next car? Have we appropriately protected ourselves from an emergency?

What really is disturbing as I – even just more aware of that is like, we have a plan for all of those things. Like we’ve thought through them, we’ve planned for them. On one hand, I look at those questions and I’m like, “My gosh! That’s frustrating. I talk about this daily, like I feel like we’ve got a good plan.” But I think that acknowledgement is so important, like just being aware, aware of some of those things, and then start to peel back the onion of like, “Where does that come from? What is the root of some of those feelings and pressures?” I think for me, personally, as I start to get two or three layers deeper, I can then start to uncover where is the fear or anxiety coming from this. Often I’ve uncovered it’s not rational, and then I can see it for what it is, and really try to address it at that. But I really feel like that awareness is such an important first step.

[00:34:14] CKD: Well, Tim, you’ve just hit on a really important concept, which is that – I think you are spot on that when you start peeling back some of these things, almost always what we find at the bottom is fear, some kind of fear. The more we can be present to what is going on, we can notice what’s going on and then as you were describing, can start to investigate what’s going on. We probably will eventually get ourselves back to some kind of fear and then we can explore the fear. What is this fear? And as you said, is it irrational fear?

I still, with everything I know about both mindfulness and actually money because I’ve – after my initial, let’s call them the follies of my youth, I have done a lot of self-teaching about money management. I’ve learned a lot from financial advisors, various things over the years. I feel like I am pretty financially literate. But even now, I seem to harbor this deep-seated fear of ending up pushing a shopping cart around with my few remaining belongings, because I have no money. Now, where does this come from? It fascinates me. I didn’t grow up – I grew up in a pretty firmly middle-class family. We were not wealthy, but we never wanted for any – I don’t remember ever wanting for anything as a child. Why is this a fear? Unless this might just be like the fear of public speaking. It’s one of the fears that we’ll end up with no money, for no rational reason.

[00:35:55] TU: Yeah. That’s a really good point, Cynthia. I think something I often ask myself is, where does this come from? And again, getting more to that root cause. I think that in my experiences financially, and working with many pharmacists, and even my own journey, we often talk about overspending and we talked a little bit about some of the automation that can make that challenge. We’re not feeling those expenses, perhaps we can pause, that might help some of that. But I also see folks, myself included, that have challenges on the other side of the spectrum with which is giving themselves permission to spend. I think we’re getting some of that here, as we talk about some of the fear anxiety, is there ever enough? But here’s the thing, is there ever enough? I mean, that is a – we can crunch some numbers and do all of that. But that feeling, if you’re not really trying to uncover what is the source of that and determine, is that a rational thought or not? That can be crippling.

I think that’s another component that we need to be thinking about around this conversation of mindfulness is both, not only behaviors that allow us to become successfully long-term, making sure that we’re taking care of our future self. But as Tim Baker, our director of financial planning says so well, it can’t just be about taking care of our future selves. We also have to make sure that we’re living a rich life today. I think there’s a balance here, correct?

[00:37:14] CKD: Absolutely. The concept of whether it’s enough, “Do we have enough?” That is such a difficult, a such a difficult and fraught topic. Because first, I’m sure you’ve gathered during our conversation that I am further along in my life journey. I’m a little bit older. When I was first starting out, when I made – when I sort of got myself back on the right track, and especially was absolutely contributing to a 401k plan to the point where I would get the match. Like I maxing out what I needed to do. I think at the time, we were being advised like – let’s say it was 10%. If you’re saving 10% of your income. Then somewhere along the line, it seemed to ratchet up to 20%.

Then lately, I’ve been getting things from one of the mutual fund companies I invest with, where they have this thing like how many times your salary should have saved at various points in life. I remember looking at where I was and how much I was supposed to have saved. Let’s just say I was shocked, I won’t repeat the exact thing I said out loud. Let’s call it shock. I thought, I don’t have that. I can’t possibly have that. You can’t spring that on me now. Because I don’t – I don’t have any more time to do that. Then somebody else send out a different graph and I looked like I was fine. So then I calmed down a bit.

I share that little anecdote just as an illustration that one, it seems like the goalpost is constantly being moved on what constitutes – I’m making air quotes here – that you can’t see enough. Then another thing that we all have to contend with is this, I think it’s innate, the concept of hedonic adaptation. We get used to what we have and then it feels like it’s not enough. I grew up in a home that was not very large and now I live in a house that I think is about 3,000 square feet. When I moved into this house, I think I we’ve lived here for about 20 years now. This place seemed cavernous to me, and it’s just me and my husband. Now I walk around and think, “Oh my gosh! This place is so small. Really, I think we need like 4,500 square feet.” We don’t.

It’s like, because you get used to what you have, or you see what other people have, and you start to feel again, “enough”, that what you have is not enough. You start always looking for the next thing. It’s very, very challenging to settle yourself around this notion of enough. My feeling is, if you are, if you are following the advice of rational experts, if there is some fight – there tends to be standard financial advice out there, about things you should be doing. If you’re doing that, you are probably as well set as you can be, is my feeling.

Now, using one of my weight loss analogies, again. I had at one point enrolled in Jenny Craig, because I had gained a little weight, I wanted to lose some. And it occurred to me, you know, what, Jenny Craig just handed me the food, and all I have to do is eat it and it worked. One of the things, though, that I really appreciated about that plan was that every day, I had a treat, they just worked it in that every day you had something that was, as I see it, absolutely no nutritional value whatsoever. It was just fun. That’s something I carry forward in now my just, you know, eating regular food again. I carry that forward with me.

Every day, I allot about 10%, 15% maybe of calories to something that I just want, you know. Whether it’s my sugar cookie flavored popcorn, or a cookie, but I have to keep it in that calorie allotment. I can’t eat a pack of cookies. I can eat my 150 calories worth of cookies. What that does for me, and what I believe it does, in general, we will move this over to money in a moment. But it, first of all, means that you don’t build up this sense of deprivation. Like I can’t eat cookies, I’m not allowed to eat cookies. As a matter of fact, I eat cookies every day or whatever it is, and I give myself permission to do that and I enjoy it.

Knowing that you have that, it’s a bit of a treat, but it’s not an excessive amount. That, I believe that same concept can be carried over, should be carried over to money management. You should have some amount of money that you feel comfortable setting aside, but that you are setting aside specifically for fun, for now, for doing things. Because you don’t want to get further along your life journey and regret not having done things. I don’t mean that, again, it’s this balance between – I’m not saying overspend, because “Woohoo! We don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow.” I mean, obviously, we don’t, but that doesn’t mean you every year go on around the world cruise, and sink yourself further and further into debt. It does mean that you have if you have allotted a pot of money to this, enjoying the present, then spend it. Because if you save it up, it’s just more money that you’re saving. Maybe you’ll spend it one day, but maybe you won’t.

As long as you’ve taken care of everything else, right? As long as, you know what I mean, Tim, as long as the things that you would be advising people to do, that I think you, and the podcast, and just everything you’re doing does so beautifully. Set yourself up with a solid foundation. But once you’ve got that foundation, give yourself the permission to have some enjoyment. Otherwise, what is all this for?

[00:43:31] TU: You said it just beautifully. I mean, that is something that our planning team, I think does such a tremendous job with the clients, which is – if we put the two spectrums, yolo on one end and squirreling money away, we’re miserable and we wake up 30 years from now, and you’ve got $4 or $5 million.

[00:43:48] CKD: It’s going to go to your children.

[00:43:50] TU: Yeah. We’ve got to find this balance between taking care of our future selves, making sure we’re living a rich life today. One step further on that, I would encourage folks, we do this a lot with the clients of YFP Planning is, actually setting up some of the buckets that name those funds accordingly, and allows for that visual permission to spend. One of the powerful things, if you’ve got all your money in one account, and we’re not separating – okay, this is earmarked for normal monthly bills. This is earmarked for emergency fund. But this small sliver, whatever that number is earmarked for those things that really derive some of the greatest joy or experiences, or give – whatever would be, those splurge type of items that folks like to do as well. Giving yourself the permission to spend is also incredibly, incredibly important.

Cynthia, this has been fantastic. It’s a conversation that I’ve been wanting to have for so long, because it’s something that I’ve been wrestling through as a topic individually for several years. I think, in this industry where we talked so much about X’s and O’s of the financial plan, I think this is such a refreshing aspect as we think about the intersection between mindfulness and money. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Where can folks go to further connect with you and learn more about the work that you’re doing?

[00:45:09] CKD: Absolutely. Sure. First, let me thank you. It has been such a pleasure to share this information. I look forward to sharing more of it. I mean, I am now getting to the point where I’m hoping to share more where people can actually access it outside of me, say speaking at a meeting. If you visit my main website, which is cynthiaknappdlugosz.com – are you going to have that written out somewhere?

[00:45:37] TU: We will. We’ll link it in the show notes.

[00:45:39] CKD: Excellent. That’s a lot of letters that I really hesitate to try to like spell out for people right now. If you visit cynthiaknappdlugosz.com, that will show you a couple of tiles that are the main things that I do. I mentioned earlier, I’m a solopreneur. I have the kind of a whole bunch of buckets really, as we were talking earlier. I have a bunch of different buckets that I do. On that page, you can click over to or you can visit directly my blog, pharmacyworklifematters.com. On there, you can sign up. I think I call it “Sign up for my newsletter” or “Sign up to be alerted to posts.”

I am working on converting that to an actual newsletter, where, originally I was just sort of letting people know, “Hey! I finally posted another blog post.” Now, I’m moving that to an actual newsletter, where I will start alerting folks to things that I am about to be doing or launching. One of the first things I am working to get up is what is going to be a free, I think I’m fashioning it as a four-week introduction to mindfulness and meditation, where I’ll try to set you up with a meditation practice. The kind specifically that I’ve been talking about that is focused on training attention. When I say four weeks, it’s just that every week, I’ll introduce something new and then you will be able to practice it during the week. Like I said, if you sign up for that newsletter, I will start announcing things through there and at least, that meditation program will be free. I look forward to seeing you.

[00:47:12] TU: Great stuff. We will link both of those in the show notes. I hope folks will check those out. I’m personally looking forward to the meditation mini-course, course, whatever you want to call it. Count me in as you launch that.

[00:47:23] CKD: Fantastic.

[00:47:23] TU: Again, appreciate your time and for sharing some of your insights and expertise on the YFP podcast. Thank you so much.

[00:47:29] CKD: Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.

[OUTRO]

[00:47:32] TU: Today’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist podcast was sponsored by our friends at Thoughtful Wills. If you haven’t created your estate plan yet, we urge you to reach out to Notesong and Nathan. They draft custom estate planning documents like wills, trust, healthcare directives, and durable powers of attorney that fit your situation and reflect your wishes. This is key. These are custom legal documents created and reviewed by actual attorneys.

Thoughtful Wills created two cut-to-the-chase packages designed for pharmacists who are ready to get their estate planning in order. You’ll really appreciate their dedication to approachable lawyering and they charge about half of what most law firms charge for the same documents. These documents are such a gift to your loved ones. If you haven’t created them yet, please just get it done. Reach out to Notesong and Nathan by going to thoughtfulwills.com/yfp. Go ahead and book a meeting with them. They’ll take such good care of you.

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it’s not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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