May 2020 – Your Financial Pharmacist

YFP 154: Getting a Home Loan in a Pandemic

Posted on by yfpadmin

Getting a Home Loan in a Pandemic

Tony Umholtz, a Mortgage Manager for IBERIABANK/First Horizon, discusses the impact COVID-19 is having on the housing market, the current landscape for those purchasing or refinancing a home, and the role of the Professional Loan Program (aka the Doctor’s Loan).

About Today’s Guest

Tony graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants and the New England Patriots. Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Summary

On this episode, Tony Umholtz, a Mortgage Manager for IBERIABANK/First Horizon, talks through the landscape of the housing market due to COVID-19, the professional loan product and answers questions from the YFP community.

Tony begins by saying that this period of time in the real estate market reminds him more of the recession after 9/11 versus the 2008 housing market crash. In this case, real estate is fairly stable during the pandemic and, in general, folks have more equity in their home, so if they lost their job due they are more likely able to sell and walk away easier than if they had no equity in it. He also shares that interest rates are down and it’s a great opportunity to refinance or buy a home if you’re in the position to do so.

Tony then discusses the professional mortgage loan (aka doctor’s loan or pharmacist home loan) that’s available through IBERIABANK/First Horizon. First time home buyers can get a 3% down payment with no mortgage insurance, no reserve requirement and and strong interest rates. If this isn’t your first home, you’re required to have a 5% down payment. There are requirements to get the professional mortgage loan, like having a 700 or more credit score and falling into a certain debt to income ratio. If you’re interested in exploring this option further, you can find more information here.

To wrap up the episode, Tony answers several questions from the YFP community.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. And before we jump into the meat of today’s interview, I would be remiss if I didn’t emphasize that the decision to buy a home and how much home should start well before digging into the financing options. This starts with No. 1, knowing your budget and No. 2, knowing all the costs involved with home ownership to figure out whether or not you are ready. And of course, this must be considered in the context of all of your other financial goals such as student loan repayment, building an emergency fund, and investing, to name a few. So if we fast forward and you’ve determined that the decision to buy a home fits within your budget and the rest of your financial goals, now we are ready to evaluate the financing options. And one of the options that exists is a doctor of pharmacist home loan, which is some unique features that can be attractive, and we talked about that on Episode 136 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, and I’ll revisit that briefly today with Tony. Now, full disclosure, IBERIABANK/First Horizon is not the only lender offering a doctor type of loan. And these loans are generally defined for higher income professionals that are at lower risk to the bank and therefore, the lender requires a lower percent down, offers competitive rates and has no Private Mortgage Insurance. And we have explored several other options that are out there, but the rate-limiting step of bringing these forward to the YFP community has the limited availability of these loans in terms of the number of states that are serviced. Therefore, as we recommend with everything else, please shop around to find the best option for your personal situation. Also, full disclosure, we do have a sponsorship relationship with IBERIABANK/First Horizon, and as with our other relationships want to be fully transparent with you. We remain committed to bringing you solutions that we have vetted and we have the chance to bring value to your financial plan. And yes, while we do get paid for promoting several of these solutions, whether that be solutions for life and disability insurance or here with a lending solution for home buying, we are committed to maintaining this approach of vetting solutions and ensuring their value to the YFP community. Alright, without further delay, let’s bring Tony back onto the show. Tony, welcome back onto the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.

Tony Umholtz: Tim, thanks for having me. Great to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited to have you back. And in Episode 136, which seems like forever ago, that was pre-COVID life, we talked about a decent amount about the types of lending options available to a home buyer, including conventional loans, VA loans, FHA loans. And so we’re not going to spend more time on that here today, but I would encourage that didn’t catch that episode or that want a refresher in that area to go back to 136. And so we’re going to spend our time together really in three areas: First, we’re going to talk about the landscape and the housing market as it relates to COVID-19. We’ll then talk about the professional mortgage loan option that’s available to folks and to many pharmacists. And then we’ll wrap up by answering questions from you, the YFP community, and I’m going to tee those questions up for Tony. So let’s jump into the landscape of the housing market as it relates to COVID-19. Tony, generally speaking, how have you seen COVID-19 impact the housing market?

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, Tim, since our last call in January, it just seems like a lifetime ago. You know, just everything we’ve went through as a country, it’s been just unbelievable in such a short amount of time. The landscape has changed very, very quickly. There’s been a lot of different things that have impacted financial markets. Obviously the stock market liquidity and the high-yield debt market, all of these came under immense pressure. Mortgages were a part of that. You know, in March when most all asset classes were selling off, many mortgages got hit hard, so mortgages on the secondary market really lost a lot of value and a lot of the REETs and aggregators that weren’t backed by the government really had gone out of — shut down operations for the most part, especially on the jumbo loans, the larger loans that aren’t backed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae. Those REETs aren’t lending right now or taking loans. So been a very big hit to the mortgage market.

Tim Ulbrich: And what do you see, Tony, you know, I lived through 2008, as many of our listeners did. I was doing residency at the time and can remember so much of the housing market being tied to 2008 and that recession. What’s different here as we think about COVID-19 and its impact on the housing market? What’s different in 2020 than what we experienced in 2008?

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, great question, Tim. I started my career back in coming out of the 9/11 recession and the dot-com recession in the early part of the 2000s. And this really — as far as real estate goes, this correction and downturn reminds me more of that one in that real estate has been pretty stable throughout this. ‘08-’09 was just so devastating because of the leverage in the market. There was a lot of things that — I didn’t do a lot of the non-prime loans myself, but there was easy approvals to things like that back then. I mean, the process of getting a loan was pretty easy. It was too easy, right? And that led to this steep correction. But the big indicator in ‘08 and ‘09, Tim, was the inventory on the market. There was so much speculative building, there was so much property and vacant housing and vacant unoccupied housing that that just — and then of course we had short sales and all these things that hit. So it was the perfect storm in the real estate world where this time around, we came into this with a very healthy financial system, and we came into this downturn with a very healthy housing market in most parts of the country. Obviously every housing market is different, but on average, the U.S. housing market was very, very strong. And we were actually under normal inventory levels in the majority of the markets of the country. So that’s really been one of the catalysts for what I’m seeing is a very, very strong real estate market.

Tim Ulbrich: And do you see — you know, I know we’re projecting here a little bit — but I think of things that are unique to COVID-19 like the enhanced unemployment benefits and some of the protections that lenders have in terms of forbearance and other factors. I wonder, are we going to see challenges that may come and it’s just delayed 4, 5, 6 months from now where we might see the unfortunate situation of people that are foreclosing on homes and those types of things? Or do you see it as really a big question that’s largely dependent on what happens with unemployment?

Tony Umholtz: You know, I think it’s all about unemployment. I really think that’s the key metric here. And there has been a lot of really sad situations out there. It’s a very tough thing to go through for many, many people. And when you take a step back and just look at everything, I don’t know for sure obviously, but just kind of looking at the numbers and the data that’s out there, we have homes on average are not overleveraged like they were in ‘08 and ‘09. So most people did not have a lot of equity in their home, so it was very easy to walk away from them. This time around, you know, you may have lost your job, but you may be sitting on substantial equity in the house. So I think it’s just going to be a different situation where if you had to sell, I think you could sell and you could get out of the home. I hope that we are through this sooner than later, but obviously the more time it goes on, that’s going to cause more pain.

Tim Ulbrich: And we’re going to stay away from talking about rates in the moment because we know these can change literally by the day and sometimes within the day. But generally speaking, what have we seen that’s been unique with rates? And I know the big news obviously, the Fed cut the interest rate to 0%. I think there’s an automatic assumption that we’re going to see mortgage rates kind of hit a floor, but we’ve seen some interesting trends here over the last few months. Talk us through what we’ve been seeing, generally speaking, on interest rates?

Tony Umholtz: Well, obviously when the Fed cuts rates, the short-term rates, it doesn’t correlate exact with mortgage bonds. Mortgage bonds are calculated off the long-term trading of long-term mortgage bonds, which are actual investment bonds traded on the secondary market. So that’s really what’s going to dictate what our pricing is on mortgage, not what the Fed does on the short end of the curve. But I mean, anytime we see something like this, there’s going to be a compression in rates. And rates have come down, and I think it’s created a great opportunity for people to refinance and lower their payments and consolidate debt. And we’ve had a lot of success with debt consolidation and of course buying a home. I think it’s created just a very, very good opportunity for buyers with rates low.

Tim Ulbrich: And there’s been some interesting — you know, I’ve been reading some articles in the Wall Street Journal and New York Times about kind of the situation we’re in that’s unique that the supply, for perhaps a variety of reasons, isn’t really out there. And it’s been maintaining the prices of homes for the most part. You know, as we perhaps start to open up the economy on some level and people are getting back out, do you think part of that supply issue is just hesitancy of people listing homes and having people come in their home? Do you think we’ll see that turn around in terms of more people putting their home up for sale?

Tony Umholtz: I think so. I think as more counties and states open up, I think you’ll see that people ease up, especially into the summertime more homes will be opened up for sale. I think that will provide a little bit more inventory. But there is a lot of buyers looking. It’s a good opportunity now. And if you’re renting, you’re looking at the numbers and saying, I can own for what I’m paying in rent. You know, the other thing — I think it’s more of the major cities, I think this isn’t for sure trend, but I think you’re going to see a little bit of a move more in the suburbs just in open spaces a little bit more than the crowded cities potentially. And I think that could benefit some suburbs, newer cities and maybe even some rural areas too just as people desire more open space. It could change the desire of what people are looking for too.

Tim Ulbrich: And for those that are listening that might be struggling to make a payment or perhaps find themselves in that situation in the future, what options do borrowers have to explore? And how does that differ even between the types of loans that are out there?

Tony Umholtz: Well, the — and I’m not an expert on the forbearance.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tony Umholtz: But that has been a great tool I think for a lot of people that are in that position. I would stress, though, that this is only something you want to utilize if you’re in a position where you cannot make payments. If you can, it can have some adverse effects potentially. I wouldn’t do it if you can make payments. But that’s been a great tool I think to help a lot of people that are in a difficult spot. But you know, as far as the tools that are out there, the fortunate thing — you know, outside of the jumbo lending, which has been hit, those, some of the options I had in March, you know, I don’t have right now. And a lot of lenders don’t have any jumbos. I feel fortunate just to have the ability to write them. But the loan amounts that are backed by Fannie and Freddie on the conventional side, some of the programs that we have that are under a $500,000 type loans, those are very, very liquid. Those guidelines are very, very strong. And that’s been a blessing that that’s intact.

Tim Ulbrich: Great. So I think that’s a great overview of some of what we’re seeing in terms of the landscape of the market with COVID-19. And I want to transition to talking about the professional mortgage loan, kind of what is it? And more specifically, what is offered with IBERIABANK/First Horizon? And you know, I think this is an area that we’ve been seeing a lot of interest among the Facebook group. We’re getting a lot of questions about it, and I’m going to bring some of those questions forward to you at the end. But what we see certainly is that one of the biggest barriers to pharmacists being able to purchase a home, you know, is typically student loan debt. And for most conventional types of loans, this greatly impacts their debt-to-income ratio and certainly could affect someone’s ability to get a loan or greatly reduce the amount that they could get approved for and often we see has a significant impact on what they’re able to save in terms of down payment. So I think that’s a good segway into where the professional mortgage loan may come in. So tell us a little bit about that loan option, generally what it is and a little bit more about the program of what IBERIABANK/First Horizon offers.

Tony Umholtz: Sure. So the program essentially allows a first-time home buyer to finance 97% of the price of the home. So you — and there’s no mortgage insurance, which is a huge benefit. And if it’s a subsequent purchase, if you owned before, it’s just 5% down. So it’s 2% more down, but the real benefit driver is that there is no mortgage insurance. There’s also not a stated reserve requirement, which is good too because a lot of these programs have reserve requirements that can be difficult when you haven’t been able to save money. I know some of our physician loan products have reserve requirements as well. And this one does not. It also carries very, very, very strong interest rates. I don’t want to get into them because everybody is different for everyone based on credit, but it tends to have some of the better rates that I can offer, even though you’re putting 3% or 5% down. But the main driver is that no PMI, I think limited reserves, and there is a max loan amount of $510,400. So that’s the cap to loan amount. You can always purchase higher than that, but if it’s more than — let’s say you found a home for $550,000 and you put 5% down, you might have to put a little bit more down to get to that $510,400 max loan amount.

Tim Ulbrich: So one of the questions, Tony, we actually had this come up in a webinar this week that we were doing with Nate Hedrick on home buying, and we were talking a little bit about this option. And as we were talking about the things that you just said in terms of competitive rates, obviously a very low percentage down that’s required, no mortgage insurance, not having to have the same reserve requirements, those types of things, the question of well, why wouldn’t somebody do it? What are the downsides to an option like this? And the only thing that I could come up with within my mind is that if for whatever reason the rate weren’t competitive, you know, with something else that they were looking at, obviously that’s a consideration or that it might put somebody in a position to buy before they’re ready to buy in terms of the low down payment. But if they’re otherwise in a healthy financial position, they’ve got a good emergency fund, they’re in a good position to buy a home, I really don’t see a whole lot of downside here. What are your thoughts?

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, I mean, we do have a debt-to-income ratios that we have to abide by. So you know, there is controls put in place. We also have a minimum credit score. It’s 700. So those would be some other things we would look at. I didn’t want to get too technical, but I guess those would be just some of the metrics. But I mean, again, it’s a very tight population that we can offer this to. It’s not everybody. So it’s got to be in these stable, this stable job position and this occupation. But yes, I think as long as you qualify, it’s not a stretch, and you’re in a good position, I think it’s a good thing as long as it makes sense for you to buy a home in your personal plan.

Tim Ulbrich: Right. Yeah, and I think it’s always a good reminder of what could be the potential downsides of having a low equity position. So if somebody were to have to move quickly for whatever reason and obviously they couldn’t use the equity to cover other costs or purchase of a new home, those types of things, but again, if you’ve got reserves or you have other plans in place to be able to account for that, then I think it’s certainly a great, great option to be looking at. Tony, one of the questions we had come forward from the community is obviously thinking about what’s happening in the economy related to COVID-19 and perhaps the lenders becoming a little bit more astringent on who they’re lending to. And even though we’re talking about a minimum credit score here of 700, do you expect that an option like this might go away in the future or change in terms of max loan amounts because of changes that might come in lending?

Tony Umholtz: I certainly hope not. I think, you know, I think — anything can happen. Risk profiles, things can change depending on how bad this downturn gets. But you know, fortunately we got through this pretty far and there’s been no changes. So hopefully it’ll stay that way.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And we’ll keep our community up-to-date and we’ll provide some more information. And as a reminder, you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan, get some more information about this offering. And you can connect directly from there with Tony and his team over at IBERIABANK/First Horizon. Tony, speaking of your team and what you guys have done, I want to thank you guys for giving our community members the time and attention they deserve. And I’m currently working through a refinance. It’s been a great, great experience working with you and your team. And I went on over to our Facebook group and wanted to see what some of the chatter was around their experiences with IBERIABANK/First Horizon because I knew more questions were coming up about this option, and I knew that I had seen more discussion on it. And I pulled a few of the comments from that community of people that have just posted really within the last week. And there was a lot of great, great things that people had to say. So one of our community members said, “Iberia is where it’s at.” I love the brevity of that. Somebody else said, “I’m working with Iberia now for first-time — as a first-time home buyer. They’ve been fantastic to work with. Their online system is the best, easiest I’ve used so far.” I would agree with that, very intuitive system. Somebody else said, “Iberia is great to work with, user-friendly website.” Another community member said, “We used Iberia Bank to refinance our loan last fall. Easy process.” And then I also noticed there was some feedback on RedFin that was quick, easy, great rate, and a great loan officer. So thank you for the work that you guys have done and for how responsive you’ve been to our community that has reached out to engage with you guys.

Tony Umholtz: Oh, thank you, Tim. It’s been fun. We always enjoy helping people. That’s our job, but connecting and helping people is why we do what we do. So thank you for that.

Tim Ulbrich: So I want to transition now, as I mentioned at the beginning, I want to put Tony on the hot seat. And I asked you all, the YFP community, for your questions in advance, knowing that I’d have the chance to interview Tony today. So we have several questions that have come in, and we’re going to work through those one-by-one. So Tony, the first question we have from the YFP community relates to escrow. And the question is, in addition to costs associated with title and processing of the loan, how much money does one need at closing for property taxes and insurance? And if you could briefly define escrow for those that may be hearing that term for the first time.

Tony Umholtz: Sure. That’s a great question because this can be one of the most complex parts of real estate is escrow accounts and how they work. Well, escrow what essentially is is property taxes and homeowner’s insurance and flood insurance if you’re in a flood zone would be added in then too. So property taxes can vary based upon where you live in the country. Different municipalities collect taxes a different way. I know that many states, you pay it once per year.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Tony Umholtz: And others, it’s quarterly. Right? There’s different counties, different parts of the country do operate differently. So we need to be sensitive to that. But you know, overall, I’ll just also give one answer to a question that comes up about escrow accounts and what they are. Banks keep escrow accounts to help pay for taxes and your insurance let’s just say on an annual basis or quarterly basis. The insurance is generally due once per year, so the bank is actually collecting typically 1/12 of your tax, your insurance payment, each month to pay that annually. Generally, you do not have the option to waive escrow unless you have an 80% loan-to-value or bullet. So if you ever hit the — most people in the audience are not going to be in that position. But if you do, if you put 20% down or more on a conventional loan, you actually can waive it and pay it yourself. Now, there’s sometimes there’s a risk grade to the loan because there is a risk if you didn’t pay those things. So there could be a little effect to the interest rate. But that is an option, and I do see some people waive them when they do have a larger equity position. But the majority of Americans have an escrow account that have a mortgage. And the taxes and the insurance and how they’re collected I think is very important to understand. When you go to closing on a purchase, you’re typically going to owe one year of your insurance premium up front. So in a case of let’s say it’s a $1,200 insurance premium, well, you’re going to have to pay and bring that $1,200 to closing. The insurance company will want their funds. And then generally the lending institution — this is really universal for all lenders in the country — they’re going to collect a two-month cushion for the account. And then depending on what time of the month you close and so forth, let’s say you close in June and your first payment is due Aug. 1, they’re generally going to collect another month to cover that one month that you’re not making a payment. So it’ll look three months of insurance, 12 months of — three months of escrow for the insurance and then 12 months of your premium. So it looks like a lot of escrow, right? But that’s how it’s done. And the same thing for taxes. So in that example, property taxes would be a couple, probably three months of taxes collected: two months to establish the account and then the one month for the month you’re missing. But and then with refinances, it’s kind of a similar situation where — not to get too technical, Tim, but I think this is important. I think if you were to go refinance and you have your current servicer, loan servicer is collecting your insurance and your taxes, they typically will refund you the full amount within 30 days of your loan payoff. So the new lender is going to come in and they’re going to look like they’re collecting, especially if you close later in the year. Because most states and counties will want payment at the end of the year, right? So like November time frame. So if you close in the fall, in autumn, it’s going to look like your lender is collecting a lot of money from you that’s being rolled into your mortgage. You know, it could be 11 months of taxes. It could be whatever, 12 months of insurance.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tony Umholtz: It’s a big number being rolled in. But you have to realize that you have almost an equal amount being sent back to you. So that’s where that idea comes into place. Do I use that check to pay down my loan? So escrow is not something that costs you anything. You have to pay them as part of homeownership, but it can look like more is being collected than — it can look like your loan is being increased on a refinance to cover that.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s a great, great explanation, Tony. I know I found that confusing as a first-time home buyer back in 2009 but also, you know, especially I think for those that are moving from one property to another, especially if you’re moving from one area to another and timing is different, I think you very much can feel like you’re double paying. And I think that definition of escrow as really the holding place and there’s going to be a refund of existing as well as receive it paying forward and just keeping that in mind. And I think that’s an important consideration because if one is paying obviously at closing for future homeowners insurance and property taxes and then that refund check comes at a later time and you forget that and you go blow it on something else, well then obviously, you know, that can have the impact that you’re trying to avoid. So is there — while we’re on this topic, I’ve often heard as you alluded to, a small percentage of people that might pull out of escrow. And you know, you mentioned that might come with a little bit of a rate risk adjustment. What are the big benefits of that? I mean, I guess the thing that comes to mind when I think about that is, you know, the downside would be it’s now on my watch, I’ve got to make sure I’m making those payments on time for property taxes, homeowner’s insurance.

Tony Umholtz: That’s right.

Tim Ulbrich: But I guess the upside would be I feel like I’ve got a better pulse on what’s going on because it’s not rolled into my monthly payment. So you know, as my property taxes might inch up or I might be more apt to try to negotiate my homeowner’s policy. So talk us through why would that move be beneficial if it’s available to somebody?

Tony Umholtz: Yeah. You know, one of the things that I’ll mention just back to answer your question but also with refinancing, a lot of people will come to me, especially right now, and they’re telling me, “Hey, my payments went up a lot because there was a shortage in my escrow account.” Right?

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, right.

Tony Umholtz: And what really happened is the bank paid your taxes and insurance more than they had collected from you, and you’re basically getting an interest-free loan and you’re just paying that back. So that’s one of the — but your payment spiked. And what we do when we refinance, we true it up. We collect the appropriate amount. But that scenario if you’re able to waive your escrow, you can control, right? You can control. And I think the main thing is a majority of people with mortgages do escrow. But if you like controlling your money and you don’t mind making a lump sum, I think that’s an advantage, just having the ability to control it yourself. I’ll be transparent, I’ve waived mine for years. I’ve always done it, but I’m a finance major. You know, I’ve been a money person my whole life, so you know, if you’re good with money and think you understand it, I think it’s fine. One thing you did mention about insurance, I mean, you have the ability to check on your insurance, even if you have an escrow account. It’s very easy. The mortgage can be changed and the insurance company can still change. But I think the main advantage is you hold onto your money, you control it. And then right now, interest rates are low and you’re not getting much on deposit accounts. But if they’re higher, you can actually earn some interest on it while you wait to pay it.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep. Great stuff. Great explanation, Tony. Another question we have from the community is what options does IBERIABANK/First Horizon have for investment properties that are not owner-occupied? Anything creative on that end?

Tony Umholtz: Well, a couple things. First thing I’ll just mention on the investment properties — and this has come up a few times with the professional produce — with multi-family, if you’re buying a multi-family property, a duplex you can still put less than 20% down. You can’t do 3% or 5%. It’s generally 15% down. There is no MI. Rates are still very, very good even though it’s multi-family. But when you get to buying a three- or a four-unit, and a four-unit is the largest residential property that we can finance. Anything above that is considered commercial. That’s a completely different type of financing. But you know, you typically have to do 20% if you’re buying a three or a four. But we still do have quite a bit of investment property options that are conventional mortgages. There is one 85% that we have for investment. It does have PMI, and PMI can be tricky and a little expensive. So I usually recommend if you’re buying investment to put 20% or even 25% down if you can because then that’s where the best rates are for investment property. But there’s a lot of liquidity still for that type of thing. And the rates tend to be pretty good. We have — we’re still doing quite a few of those purchases people are making because rents are still high. It can be a good cash on cash investment.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff. And so for the house hackers out there, we’ve talked about that on previous episodes, it doesn’t mean it’s not a good option, doesn’t mean it’s not something you should pursue. But it just might mean a little bit more that you have to bring down to get that purchased.

Tony Umholtz: There is one thing I will say. There are — you know, for example, FHA, you can buy a multi-unit property with 3.5% down. Now FHA does have higher PMI, but the rates are very attractive. So that can still be a good solution for owner-occupied, you know, multi-family that you’re renting the other units out.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome.

Tony Umholtz: So that is a good tool. There’s other tools outside of our professional product too.

Tim Ulbrich: Another question we have from the community, Krista asks, “What advice for those that are considering a refi that are hesitant because of a second mortgage such as a HELOC? Can borrowers with two mortgages consolidate and still get a competitive rate?”

Tony Umholtz: That’s a really good question. Very, very good. So a HELOC is if — so there’s two ways lenders look at this. So if you purchased a home originally with a first mortgage and a second so it was part of your acquisition of the home and we refinance and combine the two together, which I think is a great decision because you get rid of a floating rate second, right? If you combine into a fixed. But that’s considered what’s called a rate and term refinance, which is going to get you the best rates. If you were to buy the home and then take out a second mortgage let’s say a month later, if we pay that off, it’s considered a cash-out mortgage. And that comes with different guidelines and can be a little bit more expensive, depending on the loan-to-value. So it is possible, but that’s often — it just changes the type of loan if it’s a subsequent, if you subsequent purchase took out the line of credit.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Tony Umholtz: And that comes up a lot because if you’ve done it later after you purchased, it’s a cash-out and that can change the terms of the loan.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff. And the last question we have, which brings us full circle to some of our conversation about what’s going on with COVID-19, from Jessica, “Does national shortage of housing units create an environment where home prices will remain high despite the economic recession?”

Tony Umholtz: You know, every market — and we touched on this a little bit in the beginning of the call, is different. Every market has different demand and supply factors. So we don’t want to completely generalize. But on average, most of the country is in a supply issue. Right? There’s not enough supply of homes on the market. And I think commercial is a whole different story. This call isn’t about commercial, but obviously commercial market can be impacted much more deeply than residential. But being that we had such a low supply of homes and interest rates being low and the housing market is pretty strong, we’re very, very busy. I’m very surprised myself. But just in the things I read and the people I talk to, now I’m kind of on the ground level with this with realtors and buyers, there’s a ton of activity. So I would have to say that the residential market is very, very well supported, very well.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, Tony. And thank you to those from the YFP community who submitted questions. We’ll have Tony back on the show in the future if you have a question that we didn’t get to today. And I want to thank Tony for his time, again, for his partnership and collaboration with us for serving you, the YFP community. And to learn more steps — about the steps in consideration to getting a home loan, make sure to check out the post on the YFP site titled, “Five Steps to Getting a Home Loan.” You can do that by visiting YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan. And right from that page, you can get the contact information to reach out to Tony. And as always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please do us a favor and leave a rating or review in Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts each and every week. That helps others find our show. So thank you for joining, and have a great rest of your week.

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7 Ways to Reduce Your Monthly Housing Costs

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7 Ways to Reduce Your Monthly Housing Costs

The following post contains affiliate links through which YFP may receive compensation.

There are a few budget categories that eat up a large percentage of your take-home pay such as food, student loan payments, and maybe childcare.

But if you’re like most, housing costs, either as a mortgage or rent payment, will likely be one of if not the largest.

According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor and Statistics, those in the top income quintiles, which would include most pharmacists, spend around 30-32% of their pre-tax income on housing.

How does your spending compare?

You probably know many who stretch this percentage much further, maybe even up to 50% or more. This often leads to a situation known as being “house poor” and can be a huge reason many are living paycheck-to-paycheck.

And unless you are in a scenario where you can earn income directly from your living situation, this is purely an expense and can have a huge impact on your ability to direct your monthly income toward savings, retirement, debt, lifestyle, and other financial goals.

I can honestly say that one of the biggest reasons my wife and I were able to tackle our $400,000 of student loan debt in just five years was that we minimized our cost of living. Sure it wasn’t that easy living in a one-bedroom apartment for the first three years but with the overall cost of living at 15% of income, it allowed us to make some serious progress.

So whether you are house poor or just looking to unlock more disposable income, here are some ways to reduce your housing costs.

For COVID-19 housing relief info check out this post.

1. Downsize

Is your current living situation more than you need or stretching your budget too thin?

If so downsizing might be a good option for you.

No, you don’t have to sell all of your stuff and move into a 250 square foot tiny home (although, that is an option), but selling your current property and moving into a smaller house (or apartment) could save you a ton of money.

Larger expenses generally coincide with more square footage beyond just the mortgage payment (or rent payment). These include property taxes, utilities, and overall maintenance bills.

This can be tough especially if you are comfortable in your situation or used to a certain standard. Plus, it can take some time, energy, and money to make this happen.

However, this doesn’t have to be permanent and may just be a temporary move to improve your financial situation.

2. House Hack

Ah, house hacking.

It’s one of the best-kept secrets of real estate investing and can drastically reduce your housing costs while building your net worth.

The goal of house hacking is to eliminate your housing expense.

You read that right: eliminate your housing expense!

The cool thing is that there are several different ways to house hack.

Many purchase a 2 to 4 multi-family property with a loan that allows for a low down payment under 5% (like an FHA loan) and then live in the property for at least a year (mandated by the loan terms). While living there, you rent out the other units and those tenants pay down your mortgage thus greatly reducing or (hopefully) eliminating your housing expenses!

Other options for house hacking include purchasing a single-family home and renting out the other rooms or buying your dream home and living in the mother-in-law suite while you rent out the main house.

With any of these scenarios, you can drastically reduce your monthly housing expenses and even generate an income.

After your year obligation is up, you can continue living in the property or do it all over again by purchasing another house hack, ultimately creating even more cash flow.

Or, you can stash away the money you saved by house hacking to purchase a home of your own or to propel your retirement savings or other financial goals.

House hacking might not be for everyone as you have to be comfortable with sharing a wall or being in close quarters with someone else, but if you’re able to stick it out for a year or two, the savings, not to mention the tax benefits, could be huge!

To learn more about this strategy check out episode 130 where we interviewed Craig Curelop, author of The House Hacking Strategy and the Finance Guy at BiggerPockets.

3. Get a Roommate

Maybe you thought your days of living with a roomie were over, but have you ever thought of splitting your rent or mortgage with one of your BFFs or a French couple you met off Craiglist? (true story)

Having a roommate may not seem like the most appealing option especially if they don’t have the best habits and are straight-up annoying but just hear me out for a minute.

What if your housing payment was suddenly cut in half? What could you do with that extra cash?

Similar to downsizing this could be a temporary move but a powerful one to accelerate your financial goals.

4. Geo-Arbitrage

The average rent for 703 sq. ft in Manhattan is around $4,200. Not a small chunk of change, right?

I’m no stranger to high housing costs living in South Florida, but compared to places in New York and California, sometimes it feels like a bargain.

Unfortunately, areas with high costs of living don’t always grant a comparable boost in salary forcing a huge percentage of your income to go toward this expense.

So besides getting 7 roommates just to get by, what about moving?

Geo-arbitrage is a concept that’s been picking up some steam over the years especially among those in the FIRE community. Essentially, in order to save money on housing costs, healthcare, or the general cost of living (think gas, food, taxes, transportation, etc) and get more for your dollar, you pick up and relocate to a new place.

I know this can be a really tough decision especially if it requires moving away from family and close friends and means leaving a job you really enjoy. However, out of everything you can do to reduce your housing costs, this could be the one that has the greatest impact.

5. Airbnb

Ok, so you might not be ready to pick up and move yourself or your family to a different country or even to the next city over.

But what if you could bring people from around the world to you without having to leave the comfort of your home?

Putting your house, an extra room, a finished basement, or in-law suite on Airbnb for people to rent short-term out can not only help you justify having extra space in your home but allows you to monetize the home you’re already paying on.

While this strategy is obviously not going to be very desirable or lucrative in the COVID-19 era as demand has significantly decreased, it could make a comeback and something to be on your radar.

If you are interested in this, check out Episode 121 of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast where I interviewed Hilary Blackburn on how she and her husband created another stream of income by becoming Airbnb hosts. The Blackburns rent out their Nashville home 14 times a year which brings in about $600 a night.

If you’re interested in seeing how much you could earn by having your home or rooms on Airbnb, check out this Airbnb earnings calculator.

6. Re-evaluate Your Homeowners Insurance Policy

If you own your home and have a mortgage, you have homeowner’s insurance. Unlike property taxes, an HOA fee, or other fixed costs, it’s one of the few expenses with a home you may be able to change.

These policies vary in price and have different types of coverage including protection on the property, your personal belongings, other people, among other features.

Since you initially got your policy in force, have you shopped around to see if you could get a lower payment?

It’s not uncommon to do this with car, disability, or even life insurance but this is one many people forget about.

One of the companies that I have personally used and YFP recommends comparing multiple quotes for life and disability insurance, Policygenius, actually now has a platform to easily compare companies that offer homeowner’s insurance.

Within 3-5 min you can find out if you are overpaying and able to get a better deal.

Now even if there is a savings, this is not likely going to be to the same magnitude as some of the ways I mentioned but every bit helps.

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7. Refinance Your Mortgage

When you refinance your mortgage, you change the terms of the loan which could be the interest rate, type of interest rate, time to repay, or a combination of those.

Reasons to refinance include reducing the loan term, eliminating private mortgage insurance (PMI), cashing out on your home equity, or getting out of a variable interest rate.

However, the most obvious reason to refinance your mortgage is to get a lower rate. Depending on the term, a lower rate could reduce your monthly payment and result in less interest paid over the course of the loan.

This year, in large part due to COVID-19 and intervention by the Federal Reserve, mortgage interest rates have plummeted to historic lows. This is good news if you are a homeowner and are eligible for lower rates.

Now often times there are some closing costs to refinance so often in order for it to make sense financially, you may have to live at your current residence for a period of time at least to break even. You can check out our mortgage refinance calculator below.

Mortgage Refinance Calculator

There are multiple lenders that offer mortgage refinancing. Unfortunately, the process for comparing rates traditionally hasn’t been an easy one.

You can go to local banks or obtain rates from individual lenders online but this requires you to submit documents multiple times and could take significant time and effort.

Or you could go to sites that partner with multiple lenders, but the moment you provide your information, it’s sold to third parties and then you get bombarded with annoying phone calls, text messages, and emails by multiple companies.

Fortunately, there is a faster and easier way to compare rates and that’s why we partnered with Credible.

Not only does Credible have an outstanding user-friendly platform that lets you compare multiple lenders within minutes, but you also deal with them directly until the final stages of the process.

Another lender we recommend is IberiaBank. They offer a 3% down loan with no PMI for pharmacists who are first-time homebuyers but they also offer refinancing options as well.

Like all aspects of your financial plan, mortgage refinancing has several considerations that need to be weighed and might not be for everyone. To help you decide whether or not you should refinance your mortgage, check out our recent podcast episode with Nate Hedrick, The Real Estate RPh.

Another Possible Option: Live the Van Life

To say that Rena Crawford took a unique and unconventional approach to combat a high cost of living is an understatement.

On episode 152 of the podcast, Rena shared her story on how she purchased a 1994 Dodge Ram van and with about $7,000 renovated it so that she could make it her home during residency. Her dad helped with the renovation and built custom fit furniture for her new 60 square foot home. The van also boasts nice flooring, 200 watt solar panels, a full size dresser that doubles as a cooktop, a mini fridge, and a full size bed.

While living in a van down by the river may not be your answer to offset your housing costs, Rena showed that it can be done and it’s definitely an option.

Conclusion

Housing costs can take up a huge percentage of your monthly income and make it challenging to fund your financial goals. If your current living situation is not making you money and you are struggling, downsizing or moving to an area with a lower cost of living can be powerful moves. Also, getting roommates or house hacking are alternative options to have others bear some of your overall costs. Finally, comparing quotes for homeowner’s insurance or mortgage interest rates can also assist.

YFP 153: COVID-19 & Student Loans: What’s Next?

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COVID-19 & Student Loans: What’s Next?

Adam Minsky, an attorney devoted to helping student loan borrowers and a Senior Contributor to Forbes, joins Tim Ulbrich on today’s episode. Adam talks about the student loan proposals that do and do not have momentum including The HEROES Act recently passed by the House, and what you should expect going forward as it relates to your own student loan repayment plan.

About Today’s Guest

Adam S. Minsky practices in Massachusetts and New York, and is one of the nation’s leading experts in student loan law. He remains one of the only attorneys in the country with a practice devoted entirely to helping student loan borrowers. Attorney Minsky provides counsel, legal assistance, and direct advocacy for borrowers on a variety of student loan-related matters, including repayment management, default resolution, and servicing troubleshooting. He has been interviewed by major national media outlets including The New York Times, NPR, The Boston Globe, The Washington Post, and The Wall Street Journal, and has been named a Massachusetts Super Lawyer “Rising Star” every year since 2015.

Attorney Minsky regularly speaks to students, graduates, and advocates about the latest developments in higher education financing, and he maintains a nationally recognized student loan blog, “Boston Student Loan Lawyer.” He has published three handbooks including The Student Loan Handbook for Law Students and Attorneys, published by the American Bar Association. Attorney Minsky is also a contributing author to the National Consumer Law Center’s manual, Student Loan Law, and he is a Senior Contributor to Forbes, where he writes about the latest developments in student loan law and policy.

Attorney Minsky received his undergraduate degree, with honors, in Philosophy and Political Science from Boston University, and his law degree from Northeastern University School of Law. He lives in Boston, Massachusetts.

Summary

There have been several government proposals to help support people that are facing financial challenges due to COVID-19. Adam Minsky, Massachusetts attorney devoted to helping student loan borrowers and a Senior Contributor to Forbes, shares a recap of the student loan provisions in the CARES Act, the provisions proposed in The HEROES Act, and what student loan borrowers might expect in the near future.

The CARES Act was recently passed in March which suspended all interest, payments, and collections on federal direct student loans until September 30, 2020. These $0 payments count for those that are on a path to forgiveness with their student loans, whether that be through PSLF or non-PSLF forgiveness. However, FFEL, Perkins and private student loans, among a few others, are not covered under this provision and borrowers have to continue making payments on those loans.

The House recently passed The HEROES Act, a $3 trillion stimulus package which includes several other provisions for student loans as well as other proposals for stimulus checks among several other components. Although this isn’t law and is unlikely to pass the Senate, it’s meant to be a starting place for conversation and bi-partisan compromise. Adam discusses the student loan provisions and amendments that have already been made to the proposal.

Adam also talks about what’s next for student loans, his viewpoints on the longevity of the PSLF program and how student loan borrowers can advocate for themselves.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. It’s a pleasure to welcome Adam Minsky, a senior contributor for Forbes and attorney who founded the first consumer rights law practice in Massachusetts and New York devoted entirely to assisting people who have student loans. In addition to helping borrowers navigate the complex web of student loan repayment programs, Adam represents borrowers who have disputes with their loan holders or servicers and those who are facing economic hardship, default or collections. Adam has also provided various training and seminars on this important topic, authored multiple handbooks on student loan law and advised elected officials and consumer advocacy organizations on student loan legislation. In addition to his contributions on Forbes, he has been featured in the New York Times, NPR, Washington Post, and has been named a Massachusetts Super Lawyer Rising Star every year since 2015. He completed his undergraduate degree in philosophy and political science from Boston University and got his law degree from Northeastern University School of Law. Adam, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.

Adam Minsky: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Tim Ulbrich: Certainly appreciate your time and your expertise in this area. And as I mentioned in my email to you, today’s pharmacy graduates, many of whom are on the frontlines of COVID-19, have a median debt load of $170,000, are overwhelmed on how to manage this debt, so when I ran across your article on Forbes — which we’ll link to in the show notes — that there are now five plans to forgive student loans, how do they compare, I thought to myself, we need to have him on the show as our listeners would greatly appreciate his expertise and insights on this topic that impacts so many of our community members. So before, Adam, we talk about what might be, let’s talk about what we already know. So give us a quick recap of the student loan provisions that were in the CARES Act.

Adam Minsky: Sure. So the CAREST Act suspends all interest, all payments, and all collections activities on government-held federal student loans from March 13, 2020 to Sept. 30, 2020. So let’s break that down. That means first of all, only government-held federal loans are covered by that. So that includes federal direct loans and a small number of other types of federal loans that the Department of Education has at some point acquired or taken over. There are a large number of commercially-held older federal loans that we call guaranteed loans or FFEL, stands for Family Federal Education Loan Program loans. Those are federal loans that are guaranteed by the government but are not held by the government. Those are not covered. Federal Perkins loans issued by colleges and universities, those are not covered. Health professions loans are not covered. And private student loans are not covered. So there are a lot of borrowers who unfortunately aren’t getting full or complete relief from the CARES Act. But a lot of people are. And the interest suspension means that basically folks have a 0% interest rate and no payments are due on their loans. And what’s more is that — so typically when you have some sort of payment suspension through a forbearance or a deferment, those months don’t count towards anything. They don’t count towards loan repayment, they don’t count towards loan forgiveness. But the CARES Act has a specific exemption in place that says that if you were already on track for a program like a 20- or 25-year loan forgiveness under an income-driven plan or Public Service Loan Forgiveness that the months of suspension, the months when no payments are made, will still count towards those loan forgiveness programs. So that’s a unique benefit of the CARES Act as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, great summary about who is included, who is left out, and a mention of those payments counting toward for forgiveness, which I know will impact many of our listeners and certainly a benefit for those that are pursuing that route. You recently released an article, Adam, which we’ll link to in the show notes, with reports about how student loan servicers are dinging credit reports for the CARES Act forbearance, even though this shouldn’t in theory be happening. And people have been assured that it shouldn’t be happening. So tell us more about this.

Adam Minsky: Yeah, so it’s sort of an evolving story. You know, so I started hearing about this from some clients, some other consumer advocates started hearing about it, some news sources started doing some investigations. But it sounds like some loan servicers were improperly reporting the loan status, either in a nonpayment or in some cases possibly even a delinquent status. And according to the provisions of the CARES Act, there’s nothing that says it should be reported that way. And the Department of Ed has actually confirmed that the loan should be reported as normal, as paid as agreed. So some folks apparently have seen a credit ding or a reduction in their score. Now, at least one of the services, Great Lakes Higher Education, put out a statement saying that they’re working on accurately reporting all credit report information and the loan status in accordance with the law. I know at least one of my clients did see a restoration of his score back to what it was before. So it looks like if there are issues, it’s being addressed. But another consumer advocate theorized that because this had to be implemented so quickly, it’s possible that some loan servicers sort of on the back end, there may have been some issues in terms of how the loans were being reported to credit bureaus for certain borrowers. So it’s concerning, but I’m hoping that it’s temporary and it will be addressed and fixed soon.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think, Adam, as you outlined in your article, this was just a good reminder for me and a good reminder for our community of why checking your credit report and understanding your credit score is an important thing to be doing, regardless of a situation like this. But obviously, it’s timely with this. So for those that do find an inaccuracy on their credit report, what steps can they take?

Adam Minsky: Yeah, so like you said first of all, it’s just good practice to periodically check your credit. Under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, you are entitled to one free credit report annually from each of the three bureaus. So at a minimum, at least once per year, you should be checking your credit report. If you see anything suspicious or problematic or erroneous, you want to know about it and you don’t want to find out about it when you’re buying a house or you need access to credit.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Adam Minsky: So in terms of what you can do, obviously pull your credit. Annualcreditreport.com, which is sort of the go-to place to get that free credit score under the FCRA, due to COVID-19, they actually are now offering a free weekly online credit report through April 2021. That’s a new service. So that’s a way to kind of pull your credit report on a regular basis without having to pay for a service. Now, that won’t give you your score, so that’s important to keep in mind. It’s not going to give you a credit score. It’s going to tell you what’s being reported. If you do see something that’s inaccurate, so under FCRA, you can get inaccurate or erroneous information removed. So your first step would be to contact what we call the furnisher, the entity that’s reporting that inaccuracy. That could be the lender, that could be the servicer. Try to work with them to see if they can remove it. If they don’t remove it, then you can file a formal dispute with the Credit Bureau that is doing the reporting. That can be done online or in writing through mail to Equifax, Experian or Transunion. And if that’s not successful, and you’ve experienced some sort of harm as a result of that inaccurate or erroneous reporting, that might be a good time to get an attorney involved to see if you have any path forward legally under the FCRA.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And you did a nice job in the article outlining those steps, so we’ll link to that article in the show notes for our listeners to be able to go and get more information.

Adam Minsky: Great.

Tim Ulbrich: So the CARES Act is temporary protection, which as I think you mentioned the dates of through September, and I think that is igniting debate and conversation about what could be longer term solutions. And we’ll talk about that here in a moment with the HEROES Act. And to be clear to our community, I think there’s so much moving so quickly that there’s often confusion of what is reality versus what is proposals? So what we’re going to be talking about as it relates to the HEROES Act over the next several minutes might become reality but certainly has a long path to get there. So this is the beginnings of the conversation. The HEROES Act has been passed by the U.S. House of Representatives. It’s a piece of legislation that’s essentially a $3 trillion stimulus bill that’s intended to help provide further financial relief beyond that to the CARES Act to both individuals, businesses, organizations, health systems and so forth. But again, to be clear, what we’re talking about here is not yet in place and still has a way to go to get there. So Adam, the Senate is on record for saying that this will be dead on arrival. The president has publicly mentioned that he would veto it. So why are we even talking about this? Why should borrowers care when the House puts forward a piece of legislation like this, especially as it relates to the student loan provision?

Adam Minsky: Yeah, well, I mean, so this is basically viewed I think by the House leadership as a starting point for negotiations. So it’s not necessarily as if the House passed this bill and the Senate is just going to ignore it and start fresh. You know, there has to be some sort of bipartisan agreement to some extent, at least. And I think the hope is that some of the provisions of the HEROES Act — and there are many provisions — the hope I think is that some of those might make it into a final Senate version of that new stimulus bill, one way or another. And so we don’t know what pieces will make it in, whether those pieces will be changed from what they are currently in the House-passed version. But I think it’s a starting point for negotiation, and I think that’s the key point.

Tim Ulbrich: So talk to us about those provisions that are in there. You mentioned there’s many, of course student loans aren’t the only part of this, but that’s what we want to talk about here. So what are those student loan provisions that are in at least for the time being the House version that’s been passed?

Adam Minsky: Yeah, so one of the big ones is an extension of the CARES Act. So the CARES Act currently suspends payments, interest and collections on government-held federal loans through Sept. 30, 2020. The Department of Ed does have the ability to extend that by an additional three months, I believe. So they could extend it to the end of the year. But it does expire relatively soon.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Adam Minsky: So the HEROES Act would extend all of those provisions by a year, to Sept. 2021. So it would basically give folks a year and a half of suspended payments and interest. It also would expand the CARES Act provisions to include some of those loans that were excluded from the original CARES Act. So I referenced those commercially held FFEL program loans and Perkins loans. Those would now be covered under the CARES Act suspension and not left out. Private loans would still not be covered, but all federal loans for the most part would be covered now if this did become law. The big sort of debate when it comes to the student loan provisions of the HEROES Act was with regard to student loan forgiveness. So House progressives had originally been pushing for $30,000 in across-the-board federal student loan forgiveness, which was pretty significant.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I saw that.
Adam Minsky: The version of the HEROES Act that was initially released scaled that back but still had pretty significant provisions that provided for $10,000 per borrower in across-the-board federal student loan forgiveness and, interestingly, it also provided for $10,000 in across-the-board private student loan forgiveness as well. So you know, for folks who are carrying $100,000 or $200,000 in student loan debt, it may not seem like it’s that big of a deal, but this actually would result in approximately I think 16 million borrowers becoming completely debt-free.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Adam Minsky: So it would have had pretty far-reaching effects. Now after they released that version, one of the main sponsors of the Act amended it to restrict those loan forgiveness provisions. My understanding is that after the initial version of the HEROES Act was released, the CDO came out with an estimate of the cost of this, and apparently the loan forgiveness provisions would cost upwards of $250 billion. And they’re trying to find ways of trimming that overall cost of the bill. So what they did is they limited who is eligible for those loan forgiveness provisions. And they limited eligibility to someone who they deem to be in economic distress, and this is very specifically defined as someone who is either delinquent or in default on the applicable student loan or they were in economic hardship deferment or forbearance or they were in an income-driven repayment plan with a calculated monthly payment of $0. And that has to be as of March 12, 2020, the day before the national emergency was declared. So it locks out a lot of people. It still has a lot of forgiveness in there, but it’s much more narrowly defined in the final version of the HEROES Act.

Tim Ulbrich: Great summary. And I think that applies, you know, when you said it’s been limited in a significant way, that certainly would be true for pharmacists if this were to move through. I mean, there certainly are some that would fall into that economic hardship definition, economic distress category that you mentioned or being delinquent or default. And I do think there’s certainly some probably trainees — I’m thinking about our pharmacy residents — that might be in an income-driven repayment plan that has a monthly payment of $0 a month. So I think there could be some situations, again, if this were to move through, that that would apply. However, as I understand it, the biggest piece that would apply to our community would be that extension of the CARES Act provisions through Sept. 2021 and the expansion to include, as you mentioned, the commercially held FFEL loans and Perkins loans. Adam, I also recall seeing something about a fix to PSLF. Tell us more about that in terms of what was there in the HEROES Act.

Adam Minsky: Yeah, so some brief background on Public Service Loan Forgiveness, I’m sure most listeners know how the program works. But the program requires 120 qualifying payments, which a qualifying is a payment made on a direct federal loan, which is a particular federal loan program, under an income-driven repayment plan while the borrower is employed as a full-time employee for either a 501c3 nonprofit organization or a public organization of some kind. You do that 120 times, which if made consecutively is about 10 years, and your remaining balance is forgiven at the end of that. A big problem with this is to go back to those commercially held FFEL program loans, those don’t qualify for Public Service Loan Forgiveness. There is a mechanism to correct for that, and that’s through a program called the Direct Consolidation Program where borrowers basically take out a new Department of Education loan, it pays off the old loans, and what they end up with is a new federal direct consolidation loan that does qualify for PSLF. The issue is that any payments made on the FFEL loans prior to consolidation don’t count towards the 120 payments required for PSLF. There have been a lot of — there’s been a lot of advocacy to fix sort of the seemingly unnecessary complexity of this program, and so the HEROES Act does include the fix for that where borrowers who are consolidating their FFEL loans through the Federal Direct Consolidation Program would be able to get those payments previously made on FFEL program loans to count towards the 120.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I know that’s been a big point of pain and contention and certainly has gained the attention of the media in terms of people that thought they were on track and had qualifying payments and find out they didn’t. So I’m sure that would be a welcome solution for many if that were to go through. It’s important to note too — and we’ll keep bringing updates related to this and as Adam mentioned, it’s going to be an evolution. I think this was a starting point for the future debate and negotiation, but there’s other provisions in the HEROES Act that are relevant to the individual, including cash payments to households, extension of unemployment benefits, the enhanced unemployment benefits and housing assistance for mortgage and rent payments, to name a few. So if you’re not already familiar with the language that’s in there, we’ll link to it in the show notes. But again, we expect this will be a moving target in the future, and we’ll bring up-to-date to the community. So Adam, what’s next here? Obviously it needs to go to the Senate, they’re going to have debate on this. What do we expect in terms of a timeline for review?

Adam Minsky: It’s a good question. I mean, the Senate isn’t even returning to Washington until June, so I mean, nothing is happening anytime soon.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Adam Minsky: And the Senate leadership has basically said they may not even be interested in passing a new stimulus bill, at least in the short term. Now, you know, they’re saying that publicly while at the same time there are reports that they’re kind of working in the background on a potential bill. But few details have really been released. I don’t anticipate any fast movement on this at all unless we see, you know, further cratering of the economy, which is possible. I mean, we’re in such a weird, uncertain time right now where half the country is still in various states of being shut down, but things are also opening back up. I don’t know what’s going to happen. I don’t think anyone does. I think all we know is that this version of the HEROES Act is not going to become law. And I think that whatever becomes law, if anything, we’re quite a ways away from knowing what those details are going to be.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and so again, just to reiterate what you said and I mentioned earlier, especially for those that maybe tuned in halfway through or have us on double speed, what we’ve been talking about has been passed by the House, still needs to be debated, reviewed by the Senate, signed by the president. As we mentioned, what has been proposed likely is not going to be what moves forward but certainly could be a starting point for the discussions of a future bill. So looking into your crystal ball as an expert in this space, what do you see as an outcome that you think has real potential to get passed by the House, get approved by the Senate and ultimately get signed by the president?

Adam Minsky: I do think it is possible that we could see an extension of the CARES Act. I mean, frankly, at a minimum, I think that because the Department of Education already has the authority to extend the CARES Act by three months, you know, just from a political perspective, I mean, payments are going to come due again in October, just a few weeks before the election. I just don’t see that happening. Who knows? But you know, hitting millions of borrowers with a bill a few weeks before the election, I could definitely see a reason to extend that CARES Act out a bit, which could mean that we might not see a further extension of the CARES Act in the next stimulus bill, right? I mean, Congress has a habit of kind of walking to the cliff before they decide to do something. And so if this is already going to be extended possibly to the end of the year, we may not even see an extension of the CARES Act in the next stimulus bill. We might have to wait until the next next one. Who knows?

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Adam Minsky: But I do think extension of those benefits is something that is more palatable on a bipartisan basis and less controversial if there is an economic basis for arguing that folks really aren’t in a position to be affording these payments. So pausing everything I think could be palatable to enough people to pass. I think something like student loan forgiveness, most Republicans have basically said that’s a nonstarter. It’s gaining traction with Democrats, but currently we have divided government, so I just don’t see that necessarily passing now. But again, we have an election coming up. Who knows what the makeup of Congress will be after that? And frankly, who the president will be. So you know, we don’t know for sure what will happen. But I think in the current state of things, I think that student loan forgiveness in any form is going to be tough. That being said, I think that student loan forgiveness as a concept, whether it’s $10,000 on a limited basis or $10,000 on a broad basis or something bigger than that, it has rapidly gained traction among lawmakers I think in the past year. And so that is something that I think for the first time, even though it’s a long shot right now, I think it is more realistic in some fashion than it has ever been before.

Tim Ulbrich: So while we’re talking loan forgiveness and while I have you on the line, I want to get your input on PSLF and the future of that program. You know, when we talk with pharmacists, in my estimation 20-25% of pharmacy grads qualify for PSLF, most of them because they’re working in a qualifying employer like a not-for-profit hospital. You know, the No. 1 question I get — and I can tell there’s instant hesitancy — is I just don’t trust this program’s going to be around in the future, I’m worried that this program’s not going to be around and how that might impact me, especially as they see that unknown and the potential for their loan balance to grow through that 10-year period. So talk to us about what you see as the future of PSLF.

Adam Minsky: Yeah, it’s a good question, and it’s a question that I get all the time I think from people who are in the program and are worried about it. Let me start by talking about the past, which is that in the past couple of years, there have been proposals to repeal the program. One was initiated by the White House through a budget proposal. The other was initiated by Congress prior to the 2018 midterms through a piece of legislation called the PROSPER Act, which would have repealed the program. Now, some key points here: No. 1, in both of those proposals, current borrowers would have been grandfathered in. The repeal only would have applied to new borrowers taking out new loans after those bills would have passed. There’s no absolute requirement that current borrowers be grandfathered in. Congress passed a statute that provided for the existence of PSLF, they can pass a statute repealing the program. There’s nothing that says they can’t do that. But if they didn’t grandfather people in, I think that there would be first of all, potentially viable legal challenges for pulling out the rug from people. And I think there would be political blowback from fairly powerful constituents who work in various sectors that have some political power. So I think that there is good reasons to grandfather people in if a repeal were to be passed. The other key takeaway is that these repeal proposals did not pass, they did not come close to passing, and that was during one-party control of Congress and the White House. It didn’t even garner sufficient support to even come to the floor of either the House or the Senate for a vote. So that tells me that that type of repeal at least at that point did not have enough support to really threaten the existence of the program. And certainly now with divided government, any repeal of PSLF would never pass the House of Representatives, in my opinion. Now, let’s talk about the present. I have had several clients who have gotten their loans forgiven under the program. So I can tell folks I have firsthand experience. The program does work, people do get their loans forgiven, I’ve seen their balances go to $0, it is legitimate. So despite all of the well-deserved scrutiny and bad press that the program has gotten, it also does work for people. And I think that that’s an important takeaway. Now, looking ahead, you know, again, I wish I could make predictions. We are in weird times right now. But you know, anything is possible in theory. But looking at what has happened so far, certainly I don’t think that the program is in any immediate danger. The efforts to repeal it that we’ve seen would have grandfathered people in if they passed, and they didn’t pass. So who knows what the future would hold? It is possible it could be repealed.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Adam Minsky: But there’s no immediate danger of that. And I think that’s the best I can do in terms of trying to help people feel a little bit assured about the existence of the program.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and connecting, Adam, something you said earlier about student loan — a concept like student loan forgiveness more broadly being acceptable. You know, it’s gaining traction, probably still a long way away from becoming reality, but it’s definitely more of a conversation now than it was two or three years ago. And I see this being connected, this idea of a change to PSLF and I don’t think that would be politically popular by any means, and you mentioned that. And so I think as this topic of student loan gains more national attention and I think it is here in the CARES Act, here in the HEROES Act, obviously we know it’s a $1.5 trillion problem and it’s impacting many, many people. I think there is a very significant political beast there constituents should have an important voice in terms of how these student loans are impacting them. Which takes me to my final question as I know you have been involved in student loan advocacy and people have looked at you as an expert. And I know many of our listeners with advocacy from the standpoint of advocating for their profession or advocating for their role as a pharmacist. But I don’t know if they have thought about really advocating for their position as a constituent as it relates to their student loans and as it relates to things like the HEROES Act that are being considered. So what advice would you have for our listeners that want to engage in the discussion on this topic in terms of how they can successfully advocate and have their voice heard?

Adam Minsky: Well, I mean, I think the best thing that people can do is to talk about it. Talk about it with your family, talk about it with your friends, talk about it on social media, and talk about it to your elected officials. I think that one of the big issues in our country is that people have debt and people have shame and guilt associated with that debt. And I think what that means is a lot of people carry this debt and then don’t talk about it. And I think that, you know, there’s 44 million Americans who have student loan debt in this country. There is $1.6 trillion in outstanding student loan debt. There’s a lot of student loan borrowers, there’s a lot of student debt. The system is really not working, or not working well at least. And I think that the only way that that’s going to change is if we talk about it and we get enough support, broadly speaking and also with our elected officials so that there can be meaningful change. And so that means sharing your story. If you just have a lot of student debt and you’re struggling to pay it back or you’re dealing with nightmare servicer issues or you’re getting five different answers from five different people or they’re not counting your qualifying payments, talk about it. Share this with the people around you. And tell your congressperson, tell your Senate office because they need to hear about it as well. Personal stories really do go a long way to kind of putting a human face — you know, I think a lot of times, elected officials are just looking at the numbers. And the numbers are important, but I think that the human stories really have to be highlighted as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, great point. I think it’s — you look at a number like $1.6 trillion — I was off by .1 — $1.6 trillion and as a legislator or even as a person, you look at that and it can have somewhat of a numbing effect. It’s just so big. So when you hear an individual story about how somebody’s been impacted or how it’s impacting their personal situation, their family situation and trying to make those payments or difficulties with working with a loan servicer, I think it resonates in a totally different way. So great advice there. Adam, where can our listeners go to learn more about you and the work that you’re doing on this important topic?

Adam Minsky: Yeah, so feel free to check out my website, easiest place to go would be BostonStudentLoanLawyer.com. You can also follow me on Forbes. You can go to Forbes.com/sites/AdamMinsky, that’s Adam Minsky. You can sign up for email updates. I publish pretty routinely on Forbes, once or twice a week, sometimes more often than that. I try to stay on top of all these developments. You can also follow me on Twitter or connect with me on LinkedIn or find my Facebook page. But I try to stay on top of everything and to post analyses of what’s going on because like you mentioned, this is changing rapidly, especially these days. And I think that it can be confusing to know what’s what, what’s law, what’s not law, what changes have been made to certain proposals. So I do my best to kind of stay on top of all that, so folks should feel free to follow.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, Adam. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show to share your expertise and to contribute on this important topic to our community. Thank you very much.

Adam Minsky: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Tim Ulbrich: As we wrap up today’s show, I want to remind you again of our latest resource, authored by Tim Church, “The Pharmacist’s Guide to Conquering Student Loans.” We will be doing a full release of that book soon, and you can sign up for the list to be notified when we go live by visiting PharmDLoans.com. Again, that’s PharmDLoans.com. As always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts each and every week. Have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 152: Living the Van Life During Residency

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Living the Van Life During Residency

Rena Crawford, a PGY2 resident living in San Diego, California, joins Tim Ulbrich on the show. Rena took matters into her own hands after realizing how high the cost of living is in San Diego, especially on a resident’s salary, and came up with a creative solution: to buy and renovate an old van for $7,000 and live in it. Rena dives into the details of living in a van, her dreams of attaining financial freedom, and the lessons she’s learned along the way.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Rena Crawford was born and raised in North Carolina where she received her undergraduate degree in Clinical Research from UNC Wilmington. She then moved to Charleston where she earned her PharmD from South Carolina College of Pharmacy at the Medical University of South Carolina campus in 2018. Her student work experience includes interning at Ralph H Johnson VA Medical Center and volunteering at Joint Base Charleston pharmacy. Her fourth year student rotations were completed in Jacksonville, Florida. After graduating from pharmacy school, she traveled the country for several weeks in her converted van before moving to Tucson for her first year of pharmacy residency at Southern Arizona VA Healthcare System. She now resides in San Diego, California where she lives comfortably in her van and enjoys traveling, visiting national parks, and spending time on the water. She is currently finishing her second year of pharmacy residency, specializing in ambulatory care.

Summary

Rena Crawford, a pharmacy graduate from UNC Wilmington and now PGY2 resident living in San Diego, California, has chosen a different approach to saving money on her expenses than most. When Rena realized that rent prices in San Diego are often over $2,000 a month per person, she knew that she was going to have to find a creative solution to her living situation so that she could make some progress on her six figures of student loan debt.

Inspired by her brother traveling the country in a van, Rena decided to purchase a 1994 Dodge Ram van and renovate it so that she could live in it during residency. Her dad helped with the renovation and built custom fit furniture for her new 60 square foot home. The van also boasts nice flooring, 200 watt solar panels, a full size dresser that doubles as a cooktop, a mini fridge, and a full size bed.

On this podcast episode, Rena dives into all the details about living in the van, her financial goals, how van life is helping get a head start on them even while making a resident’s salary and the lessons she’s learned this last year.

Mentioned on the Show

YFP Planning

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. I’m excited to have joining me Rena Crawford, a PGY2 resident living in San Diego who has developed a creative solution to the problem that many new grads entering residency are facing: high debt loads, a reduced income, and another year or two that goes by without making progress on their financial plan. Rena, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.

Rena Crawford: Hi, Tim, thank you so much for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Such an awesome, unique story. I appreciate you reaching out. Excited to have you on the show to tell our listeners more about your journey as you’ve gone through residency, have a unique living situation, and I think more than anything, just really having an intentional mindset towards your financial plan, which I love and we’re going to dig into that a little bit deeper. So before we jump into your current living situation and your lifestyle, let’s back up. Tell us a little bit more about where you went to school, where you grew up, and then ultimately why you decided to make the move out to San Diego.

Rena Crawford: Right. So am I on the southwest coast now, but I actually grew up in North Carolina, on the East Coast. I went to pharmacy school at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston. And I moved out west for the first time prior to my first year of pharmacy residency. And I’ve actually only been in San Diego since I matched for PGY2 and started in July.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And tell us about your student loan debt position at graduation. How much did you have? And how did you feel about that debt when you graduated?

Rena Crawford: Right. So when I graduated, I was at $160,000. As a student, I don’t think that really set in, what that really meant, until I got to residency and first started making a salary or any kind of paycheck at all. That was really the first time it hit me what that meant.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, a resident salary will do that to you, right? You see that big student loan debt number, obviously you’re excited about residency training, and all of a sudden you go into active repayment and you’re like wait a minute, how much do I have to pay on a resident’s salary? Is this realistic? And to that point, you had shared with me that for your situation, it was going to take about a $600 payment, which would be about 20% of a resident’s take-home pay, just to pay the interest alone. So I’m guessing that was a surprise. Is that fair to say? That it would take that much payment just to cover the interest?

Rena Crawford: Right, exactly. So I knew I wasn’t going to go further into debt for residency, and to pay off just the interest means making zero progress. And so by the time residency came, I’d had four years of student debt accruing, I had a low salary, and just to keep everything in check was going to take a large percentage of my take-home pay.

Tim Ulbrich: I appreciate that mentality. I always say stop the bleeding, stop the bleeding. And you did more than that. You made progress, and we’ll talk about that. But I think residency can be a time period where you’ve gone through all the hard work, you get your PharmD, obviously get to that point, you’re excited, next phase is coming, big student loan debt position often that grads are faced with. And if you go into residency, low income position for a year or two, obviously it’s easy I think to throw up your hands and say, “You know what? I’ll worry about it after the fact.” And you certainly did not do that, and we’ll talk more about that. So we have heard stories of pharmacists on this show, we’ve featured some on the blog, who have really reduced their spending in really extreme ways, whether that be eating out and really inexpensive foods for a long period of time, eating bulk foods all the time, reducing your utility payment by not using air conditioning. We’ve talked about house hacking and other creative strategies. But I’ve never heard — I’m guessing our listeners have never heard — of anyone doing what you’re doing to reduce their expenses so that they can tackle their debt. And that is, of course, living in a van for a year. And we’re going to talk about exactly what that looks like to be able to do that. So talk to us about the rent situation in San Diego, in southern California. What does that look like? And how did that help drive your decision to go a different route and ultimately live in a van for a year?

Rena Crawford: Yeah, San Diego rent prices are known for being especially high. I have friends both inside pharmacy residency as well as outside of the pharmacy world completely that are paying $2,000 and more a month in rent. That could just be their share. They may have to have one or two roommates that pay just as much.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Rena Crawford: Of course that can range a little bit. I know people who are paying a little bit less than that. But compared to what I’d seen growing up on the East Coast, it was the most expensive I’d ever seen. And it seemed hard to picture being able to pay down loans in any meaningful way and have a normal life if rent was going to cost two-thirds or so of my monthly paycheck. So knowing that I found a lot of satisfaction out of minimalism and having that freedom to spend money on other kinds of things like being healthy, having a good diet, I knew that the rent was something I would be willing to sacrifice and I could be pleased living in a van.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think one of the things we’ve talked about on the show before is we know pharmacist’s income don’t increase proportionally with cost of living, and I would say that is certainly true for residents as well. You know, there’s a range for a resident’s salary, you may see that fluctuate, but some, and it may be a little bit higher on the West Coast than it is here say in the Midwest, but typically it doesn’t go up proportionately with what we see in cost of living. So as you mentioned, that would have been a huge portion of your take-home pay when you look at rent figures that are that high. One of the things you said, Rena, which I thought was interesting — I want to dig a little bit deeper — is that you said knowing that you get satisfaction from minimalism. Tell me more about what you mean by that and how you identify that.

Rena Crawford: Yeah, so before I started living in the van, the only person I’d ever known to do anything like that was actually my younger brother. When he graduated college, he bought a cheap Chevy van and left and traveled the country for a few months. After that, that piqued my interest. I became more interested in that kind of idea. So I myself after pharmacy school graduation before PGY1 year started, I took the van and traveled. I hadn’t ever left the East Coast at that point. So I went across into the southwest, up the coast of California. So when I matched there for PGY2 residency, I’d already been there in the van. I could picture the beautiful weather, the pretty beaches and how easy it would be to pull off living in the van again. And traveling in it, I’d realized that it was something I genuinely enjoyed and got a lot of satisfaction out of.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Awesome. So being able to have some of that previous experience and knowing that it could be a possibility obviously was valuable in being able to do that for a whole year. So let’s talk about the van. Tell us a little bit about how much you bought the van for and, you know, what did it look like when you got it and how much did you have to do in terms of renovation to make it livable for a year?

Rena Crawford: So I have a 1994 Dodge Ram van. The van itself was about $4,000, and it cost a few hundred extra for registration, maintenance up front and everything. I’d say to get the van into my possession was probably about $5,000.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Rena Crawford: When I first bought it, it looked like it was frozen in time back from 1994. Velvet lining, it was bucket seats in the back with the old stuff in the center and the bench that went down into a bed. So I had to start from scratch in terms of renovating. My dad helped a lot. He’d built a lot of the furniture custom-fit for my van. And then I had a friend out here locally in San Diego who did some electrical work, put in nice flooring. So it’s actually, it’s pretty nice inside. I have a couple 200-watt solar panels that keep a couple deep-cycle batteries charged to hook my laptop and phone into. So all said and done, the renovation was probably another $1,500.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. So roughly $7,000 all in, you mentioned the purchase, obviously the taxes, all those other fees that come with buying a car, and then some of the renovation inside. Which if we go back to your rent numbers that you shared and if we use $2,000 as a number, we’re looking at a little over three months before you would break even and obviously you then have something that you can leave with or even if it was a lesser rent value, certainly within a time period of one year, you would have broken even. So cool to think about the numbers. And for those that are saying, “I’d love to see the van. What does it look like? How did this work? And I want to see what it looks like on the inside,” we’re going to share some pictures on the show notes. So make sure you head on over to the website, YourFinancialPharmacist.com, pull up this episode, and you’ll be able to see some more of that as well. So walk us through the van, Rena. If I were to enter into your van, give us the visual of what would I expect as I walked into the van.

Rena Crawford: Yeah, so I generally walk in from the backside door. When you first open the door, you realize it’s actually pretty spacious. I have a full-sized dresser that doubles as a cooktop immediately straight across when you walk in. Then I have a mini refrigerator sitting on a bench seat that opens up into storage. I have a full-sized bed in the very back. It’s shorter than a full-sized bed, it’s actually as wide as a full-sized bed. It has extra storage under the bed as well as along the top near the ceiling. And like I said, it’s surprisingly spacious. The van itself is considered to be an extra-long version. So it’s a little longer than a typical van. But it’s tall enough for me to stand in. I have room to move around easily, getting dressed, making dinner. And even if I wanted to have a couple friends over to sit on the floor and hang out, that’s something I’ve done before.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s cool. So in terms of size, if I remember right, less than 100 square feet, right?

Rena Crawford: Oh yeah. It’s like 60-something square feet.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. OK. It’s just amazing, you know. I think about my own home and other homes that I’ve lived in and certainly family and how easy it is when you think of 2,000 or 3,000 square feet, it’s like oh my gosh, I need four bedrooms, 3,000 square feet. But I think all of that you put into perspective when you have an experience like this. And it really helps you determine, you know, what are the things that really matter most? And perhaps it’s not the space that really impacts those things. And we’ll talk a little bit about that at the end of the episode. So some common questions that I’m thinking of that I’m guessing our listeners may be thinking about as well is where do you park the van? And how do you shower? Where do you able to work out and enjoy some of those amenities? And what about cooking versus eating out meals? Talk us through some of those logistics that you might think about that you have to think about differently versus if you have a home or you have an apartment.

Rena Crawford: Right. So I would say parking was the biggest learning curve. You kind of over time develop an eye for places that you know you could park overnight and not draw attention to yourself but also seem relatively safe. And I say relatively because one thing about San Diego is there actually is a community of people who live in vans. And more often than not it’s actually because they have a very dire financial situation and have no other choice. So parking spots are — some of them are in high competition, especially ones that have WiFi. Those are more limited. But like I said, over time, you kind of get an eye for it. I generally look for places that are kind of off a main drag but are next to a neighborhood. And those tend to work out the best. There’s places along the beach, and there’s places near the hospital. So actually, once you get into a groove, it hasn’t really been an issue. In terms of showering, I definitely rely on fitness centers, I use the locker room at the hospital. Finding those places was a bit of a transition, having to locate which showers had good water pressure, which ones I could count on having hot water, things you wouldn’t necessarily think about. And then in terms of food, I can cook in the van. I have a stovetop and I can boil water and I have the ability to saute and cook in a pan. But my refrigerator is pretty small. Any meals that require a lot of ingredients or leftovers, those things are inconvenient. So I end up picking things up a lot such as the hot bar at Whole Foods or takeout food, something healthier like poke or something like that. And I’m comfortable doing that because one, I’d have to eat anyway. And two, I can’t sustain a resident’s lifestyle on ramen noodles.

Tim Ulbrich: Right, right. Well, and we’re not talking about — I think it’s a good point. We’re not talking about crappy fast food all the time. I mean, obviously you’re talking about healthy options that you can find at Whole Foods and others. And I would also add, you know, that it sounds like because you’re able to keep your cost of living down that that frees up some income to be able to eat out or even as we’ll talk about here in a moment, be able to pay off some more of your student loans. So do you feel like you have some of the margin and the permission to be able to do that and have that convenience of not having to cook in the van where you don’t have a lot of space and room for refrigerating leftovers because you’ve been able to decrease the rent position?

Rena Crawford: Exactly. I feel like that’s one way that the van life has really paid off is being able to be selective about what I eat and being able to comfortably afford things that I believe are healthy.

Tim Ulbrich: So one of the things, Rena, I was thinking about this from the lens of a parent perspective, you know, if this were my child, I’d be like, ‘Oh, I love the passion for staying committed to achieving your financial goals and not spending money where you don’t necessarily have to,’ but I’m worried about some of the things we’ve talked about: your safety and your wellbeing and all those things. So is there a community of people that are kind of looking out for one another? You mentioned that those that are often living in a van situation might be in a dire situation to do so. But are there others that — I’m thinking of like the FIRE movement folks or others that are in a similar situation to you that are often trying to help each other out, pointing people in the right direction about this parking spot or this food option or this WiFi? Or do you feel like you’re kind of going at this alone?

Rena Crawford: When I first got here actually, there were some people who walked up to me and started conversation. I woke up in the morning once with a note written and put under my windshield wiper just saying, “Hey, I don’t think you’ll be able to park here for very long. We get cleared out from time to time.” So at the beginning, I did feel kind of that sense of comradery, but now as I’ve identified my own locations to sleep and kind of my own groove, I feel like I kind of run into them less. But yeah, there is a community, and they definitely do look out for each other. It’s actually one of the nice sides about it.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s cool. And tell us about, you know, the progress you’ve been able to make on your student loan debt because you’ve been able to free up some of your income that would otherwise be going towards rent.
Rena Crawford: Well, I try to shoot for about a $1,600 a month payment each month. That can vary a little bit depending on if something comes up in terms of needing van maintenance done. But as a whole, you know, in the last two years making resident’s salary, I’ve still been able to take my principal from $160,000 down to $130,000.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow. That’s awesome. So again, as we talked about earlier, often residents, I feel like the goal can be status quo. But here we’re talking about making progress. And it looks like you’ve done that in a significant way. So you mentioned earlier that you’re from the East Coast. So right now you’re on the West Coast for residency. So million-dollar question, depending on where you end up for a job and where you go next, what do you plan on doing with the van?

Rena Crawford: I think by the time the year is over, I’ll probably be ready to move out of the van. I mean, I’ve been really content living in it and it’s been very satisfying because it’s accomplished what I wanted it to accomplish, which is help me pay down my student loans. But by the time this year is over, I think I’ll be ready to get out of the van or at least not have it as my home base. I want to keep the van forever and use it for weekend travels. It does feel like an asset, and it has a lot of good memories with it. But yeah, I don’t think I’ll continue to live in it after this year.

Tim Ulbrich: Is there one or two things that you miss most about more of a “traditional” living situation like a rent or a home?

Rena Crawford: Yeah. I mean, I miss the convenience of showering. And the way it is now, it requires several extra steps. And then just being able to cook. You don’t realize until you can’t cook anymore how pleasurable it actually is to make your own meal from scratch. I miss doing that.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I can envision as you take this next step following your residency where you end up in let’s say a 1,000-square foot apartment and you’re like, what do I with this? I have more than 10 times the space I had for the last year. But obviously I think that’s a good challenge to be thinking through. So talk to us a little bit about support of family and friends. You know, I could see this going one of two ways. And I know your brother went a path of traveling in a van, so maybe this is a little bit different with the family, but I could see family and friends being like, ‘Wow, I just admire the passion,’ and perhaps it even motivates and inspires them in their own journey and their own financial plan or their own quest of finding what they actually need in terms of minimalism. Or I could see people being like, ‘What in the world are you doing?’ Like what has that been like in terms of support from family, friends and even colleagues?

Rena Crawford: Yeah. Yeah, when I started residency, I didn’t want to publicize it. But I knew it would be discovered. It’s hard for it to never come up in conversation at all. And I was worried at first, you know, that it would look unprofessional or that it would reflect poorly on me in a job setting. But actually, you know, once word got out there, it spread pretty quickly, and everyone only had positive things to say. You know, I actually have gotten that before, like, ‘Oh, that was a good idea. I wish I would have thought of it. Maybe I would have done it too.’ So far, nobody actually has moved into a van after talking to me, but maybe it’ll happen sometime because people have genuinely positive reactions and seem to really understand the idea behind it.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I sense people listening to this, it may be that they move into a van, but more likely, it’s probably the principles that they take and apply to their own situation in terms of trying to really evaluate what they do or do not need and what other goals could they accomplish if they’re able to free up some of the expenses that come with what is usually the largest expense in someone’s budget, their living situation. So I want to read a passage, Rena, from the article that you had sent over to me and then talk a little bit about this concept of happiness related to money. So you said, “Forgoing a real home in favor of living in a van may sound extreme. But there’s something wonderful about knowing that almost all of my needs can fit into 70 square feet. Living in a van has done more for me than just save me money and allow me to pay down my debt. It allows some freedom for cheap weekend traveling and I can live in any part of the city I want, depending on my mood that day. Plus, I’ve learned just how little I need to be happy.” So talk to us about that concept of happiness and how this experience, as you reflect back on this experience, what it’s made you realize in terms of what it does or does not take to be happy.

Rena Crawford: I think a lot of my happiness right now comes from accomplishing my goal of getting further towards freedom. And you know, if that’s your priority, putting the money there first and then living on what’s leftover, that forces you to re-evaluate what really makes you happy. And I mean, I still have my laptop, I still can watch Netflix before I go to bed or a nice movie or something if I want to, I can pick up meals when I feel like I need to. But I don’t need a bunch of things. And I feel like as people, you know, make more money, the things kind of start to fill up the empty space because you have that discretionary money, you’re more likely to purchase things you don’t need. And living in a van that doesn’t allow that, you know, I don’t have a place to put anything, so I don’t buy any extra stuff. And I haven’t suffered for that at all. In fact, I feel pretty free. And a lot of my money goes into experiences like spending money on gas to spend a weekend at Yosemite or something. I feel more pleasure from that than I do just having belongings.

Tim Ulbrich: Which are the memories you’ll remember. I mean, I think the experience in and of itself is one that you’ll remember. But being able to fund those experiences I think is so cool. And I’m a huge believer that short-term experiences — when it comes to your financial plan, short-term experiences, even if they’re short-lived, have positive long-term benefits. So here I see a situation where yes, of course you’re not going to live in a van forever. But through this experience and through what you’ve learned about what makes you happy and where you can derive that value you do or do not need, even though your expenses will naturally go up, your income is going to go up, I think it really will have a long, long-term impact on how you spend your money. And I think that’s one of the coolest things about an experience like this. So Rena, if we fast forward five years from now, so what would that be? 2025. May 2025, I sense you’re someone who’s got big goals, dreams and aspirations. You know, you’ve obviously been able to tie into this concept of minimalism, you’ve had some real intentional efforts during your residency to be able to pay down your debt. So when we look at your financial plan in five years, five years from today, what would you say success looks like?

Rena Crawford: So in five years, I definitely want to be debt-free as well as have a solid nest egg of savings to maybe put a down payment on a house, maybe put a down payment on a sailboat and travel the country or travel the world. I haven’t figured that out yet. But I know for sure I will be out of debt and have some nest egg to figure out what that next step looks like for me. Some kind of investment or new alternate way of living.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I can tell for your situation, obviously having no debt and taking away that $1,600 a month payment or perhaps more as you go into the future to get that paid down plus having minimal expenses overall, even if that goes up, is going to give you lots of options to do the things that matter most to you. So Rena, thank you so much for sharing your story, for reaching out, for taking the time to come onto the podcast. And I’m confident your story is going to help inspire others to think about their own financial situation. So thank you so much.

Rena Crawford: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

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YFP 151: How Personal Finance Perceptions Affect Student Pharmacists’ Career Choices

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How Personal Finance Perceptions Affect Student Pharmacists’ Career Choices

Dr. Nick Hagemeier joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about an article he and his colleagues published in the American Journal of Pharmaceutical Education titled Student Pharmacists’ Personal Finance Perceptions, Projected Indebtedness Upon Graduation, and Career Decision Making. They discuss the history of student loan debt in pharmacy education, Nick’s experience teaching personal finance to pharmacy students and why today’s graduates, more than ever, should be equipped with the knowledge and tools necessary to manage the pressures associated with large student loan debts.

About Today’s Guests

Nicholas “Nick” Hagemeier, PharmD, PhD, is Vice Chair and Associate Professor of Pharmacy Practice and Director of Student Professional Development at the East Tennessee State University Gatton College of Pharmacy. Dr. Hagemeier also serves as Director of ETSU’s Pharmacy Practice Research Fellowship. He earned his PharmD, MS, and PhD degrees from Purdue University. He was awarded NIH funding to conduct research on the role of pharmacists in preventing opioid-related morbidity and mortality and was appointed to the US Health and Human Services Pain Management Best Practices Interagency Task Force in 2018. He has published 44 peer-reviewed manuscripts and has presented his opioid and wellbeing research nationally. He is a graduate of the American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy Academic Leadership Fellows Program. He is currently serving as a Presidential Fellow at ETSU. Dr. Hagemeier has a passion for using communication to improve patient care, applying social/behavioral research in practice, and helping students thrive personally and professionally. In the College of Pharmacy, he champions wellbeing-promoting initiatives such as Phitness Phriday and the mentoring program. Dr. Hagemeier resides in Johnson City, Tennessee with his wife Molly and four children, Will (14), Clara, (12), Fritz (10), and Katie Ann (6). His hobbies include exercising with his F3 buddies, running, and playing the banjo.

Summary

Dr. Nick Hagemeier is an Associate Professor at the Gatton College of Pharmacy, East Tennessee State University. Nick shares that he made a lot of financial mistakes after graduation, but after taking a Dave Ramsey course at his church, his eyes opened and he paid off a lot of debt quickly, sold his new car and proceeded to go back to graduate school to get his PhD.

He and another colleague started a personal finance course in their college of pharmacy driven by a passion to equip pharmacy students with the knowledge they need to make smart decisions about their finances and student loans, even while still in school. Nick wanted to get data about if and how personal finance perceptions or the amount of student loans carried affected the careers or training that pharmacists took. Some colleagues at other colleges of pharmacy were also passionate about this topic and joined forces to conduct a study across three schools. They surveyed students at the beginning of their personal finance class and had 700 usable responses. Their hypothesis was that the amount of student loan indebtedness would impact postgraduate training. Through the survey they discovered that the actual student loan debt amount wasn’t predictive of pursuing postgraduate training, however the perception of debt pressure and stress associated with the debt was predictive. Nick was surprised by their findings and shares that this is modifiable and they are able to equip students with skills to manage their stress and debt.

You can read the full study here.

Mentioned on the Show

Refinance Your Mortgage with Credible
AJPE: Student Pharmacists’ Personal Finance Perceptions, Projected Indebtedness Upon Graduation, and Career Decision-making by Nicholas E. Hagemeier, PharmD, PhD, Chad K. Gentry, PharmD, Debbie C. Byrd, PharmD, MBA, L. Brian Cross, PharmD, Daniel Rose, PharmD, Nasar Ansari, PharmD, Pooja Subedi, MPH, and Tandy Branham, PharmD
YFP 082: Debt Free Theme Hour with the Teacher and Pupil w/ Joe Baker and Blake Johnson
Bureau of Labor Statistics Occupational Outlook on Pharmacists
YFP 124: The Behavioral Investor w/ Daniel Crosby

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. I’m excited to welcome Dr. Nick Hagemeier, associate professor at the Gatton College of Pharmacy, East Tennessee State University, to talk about his findings from research he and colleagues published in the American Journal of Pharmaceutical Education assessing student pharmacists’ personal finance perceptions, projected indebtedness upon graduation, and career decision-making. Dr Hagemeier, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.

Nick Hagemeier: Hey, Tim, thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: Appreciate you taking the time to do this. I know it’s crazy times with schedules and wrapping up the academic year and COVID-19 and all that that brings, so thank you so much for taking time.
Nick Hagemeier: Absolutely.

Tim Ulbrich: So Dr. Hagemeier, when I read your research article that you and your colleagues published in AJHP, which we’ll link to in the show notes and I would encourage our listeners to check out for themselves, I knew that our community, the YFP community, would really take interest in what you found through this study So before we jump into the study and your findings, tell us about your work that you’re doing at ETSU right now and your career path leading up to your current position.

Nick Hagemeier: Oh, wow. Well you know, the work we do is ETSU, we have a personal finance elective that we have probably around 20 students will take that every fall semester.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Nick Hagemeier: And that’s been, you know, it’s been a huge blessing to me and Brian Cross, we’ve co-coordinated that class I think since 2013 now. And it’s probably — you know, we’ll tell the students in that class it’s our most fun class to teach because we know the impact that the knowledge that we’re sharing with them had on our lives and we know that it can be a game-changer for them. And you know, we’ll have students that buy in and actually will change their lives. And that’s something that keeps you coming back for more.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, and it reminds me, Nick, I’m guessing you get several of these emails from graduates. Perhaps in the moment it sticks, maybe it doesn’t, it’s a later point in time. It reminds me of Joe Baker we’ve had on the show teaches personal finance at UAMS in Harding. He’ll regularly hear from students about wow, the impact that this had on me later on or when they get to a later decision point about student loan debt or home buying or life planning or whatever, you know, it’s often planting seeds. That’s what I find, and I don’t know if that’s the same for you, but it’s often planting seeds. And some of those come to be in the moment in terms of the fruit, and sometimes it’s a little bit later on.

Nick Hagemeier: I absolutely agree. Yeah. We tell our students in that class that you know, probably the best time to do the course evaluation is about five years from now. But you’re right though that some of that seed will be planted right then, and it will be a game-changer for them while they’re in pharmacy school. That’s obviously our preference. But getting those thank you emails or just learning about the impact that it had years down the road, that’s awesome.

Tim Ulbrich: So tell us a little bit more, Nick, about your career path into your current position: where you did your training and I know you have some advanced degrees and training as well.

Nick Hagemeier: Yeah, I did my pharmacy degree at Purdue University. And then started trying to figure out what I wanted to do next. And I really didn’t have a good feel for that until my P4 year, and a mentor suggested that rather than residency training, which is what I thought I was going to pursue that I might want to consider a PhD. So I didn’t really know a whole lot about it at the time, to be honest. But I trusted his judgment and when you know who that person is, it was Nick Popevich. And he’s well known, a dear man, and I really think he had my best interests in mind. And he was right. And so that’s what I did. And I worked in the community pharmacy setting part-time during my Master’s degree and then stopped after my Master’s degree and worked full-time in the independent community pharmacy setting. I worked at a couple different pharmacies because my primary one didn’t have enough hours to support me. So I worked 30 at one and 11 hours at another. And did that for a few years and then transitioned into chain. And that was really — I don’t even know how to put it into words, you know. It really brought back my career aspirations and made me reflect on what do I really want to do? And I felt like I was stuck. I didn’t know anything about money. I had been — the example I give my students that just shows you how dumb I was about money is I had a note on my wife’s engagement ring. We were engaged in — we got married in 2002, engaged in 2001 I believe, 2002. And I had not paid anything on this note until 2009.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, wow.

Nick Hagemeier: I just kept paying the interest. I mean, how silly is that? So I got — the church we were attending offered the Dave Ramsey course, and I’m like, well, I don’t know anything now. This really can’t hurt. And we took that course, and it was absolutely eye-opening for me. It really did change my life. And that’s what we tell the students, and Brian Cross has the same story. And we’re very transparent with the students about our ignorance, things that we did wrong as we were going through pharmacy school and then early in life. Eventually, I figured out how to get out of debt. I paid off a ton of debt over a very quick period of time, sold a car I had just bought — my only new car I’d ever owned, I sold that and got out of a ton of debt and figured out a way to make it work to go back to school so that I could do what I love doing. And that’s what I did. I went back to Purdue, got a PhD in 2009, graduated in 2011. And here I am at ETSU.

Tim Ulbrich: And I love, Nick, that you took your personal experience and you know, I always joke with my students the school of hard knocks is the best way to teach this topic.

Nick Hagemeier: That is for sure.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think it makes you real. And I can tell the students appreciate that, I’m sure the same is for you and just that vulnerability and sharing that this is a topic, it’s so behavioral, and we are all constantly learning. We’re all constantly making mistakes, hopefully less over time. We hopefully do better over time. But it’s human behavior, you know, when it comes to personal finance and making mistakes. And I’m so glad to hear that you share those stories with your students. You know, I’ve tried to do the same, even though it’s hard to sometimes admit like oh my gosh, did I really do that? Did I really pay a note on an engagement ring for that period of time?

Nick Hagemeier: Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: Did I really make that mistake? But I think it makes it real for the students, and I think it also allows them to see that hey, mistakes are going to happen and you continually learn, you pick yourself up and you move forward. And I also love that you have really been able to not only teach and give back to the students but also transition to moving some of this into the research space and being able to ask some really important questions that are having an impact on our student pharmacists, on our graduates and our profession as a whole. So let’s talk about this study, again, published in AJPE, “Student Pharmacists’ Personal Finance Perceptions, Projected Indebtedness Upon Graduation and Career Decision-Making.” Tell us a little bit about the purpose of this study. What led you to wanting to conduct a study about student pharmacists and the link between their indebtedness and their career decision-making process?

Nick Hagemeier: Well, I was fortunate to have some colleagues at other institutions that at that time that were just as passionate about this as I was. And I’m a data guy. I love anecdotes, I love good stories, but at the end of the day, I want to know are there data that support my assumptions or assertions that we’re going to make? So I had a little bit of a captive audience, and I had students that were willing to participate in this research, so I just wanted to try to figure out, you know, OK, I know I think personal finance influences decision-making, career decision-making, whether people are going to grad school or fellowships or residencies, you name it. And I just wanted to have some data to do that. And Chad Gentry had been at ETSU and he had been at Lipscomb, and Debbie Byrd was then at the University of Tennessee and now serves as our dean. But they were both doing work like this, and I reached out to them to see if they would be willing to participate in — actually some of this happened at an AACP meeting, just we were talking about this. And they both expressed interest that hey, they’d like to survey their students too. So I developed a survey instrument and kind of put it through the ringer here at ETSU, tweaked it a little bit early on, and then invited Chad and Debbie to participate as well. And so it was really cool that we got data from three different institutions. I think that’s a strength of the study as opposed to just having students at ETSU.

Tim Ulbrich: I do as well, and we’ll talk more about the potential for extrapolating some of that data to other colleges and students across the country. So tell us a little bit — you started to talk about three institutions, but tell us a little bit more about how you conducted the student, who specifically was evaluated, how they were evaluated, and the types of questions that you asked in the survey.

Nick Hagemeier: Sure. So we — I think an important point is that we surveyed the students right out of the gate, so right when we had them in a personal finance class. And it differed across institutions as to whether that was required or not. We surveyed them before we gave them any knowledge.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Nick Hagemeier: So we were trying to look at baseline, like how are you feeling? Like what are your perceptions about this? What are your self-efficacy beliefs or your confidence in your skill set related to personal finance? Wanted to know about their perceptions of debt and the pressure that goes along with that or can go along with that. So we developed this paper-based or web-based survey, depending on the institution, and the students took this at the beginning of the class and then we got the data back and we analyzed it here at ETSU. So we had P2s and P3s.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Nick Hagemeier: That were participating in this research; that varied across the institutions as well.

Tim Ulbrich: And tell us a little bit more, you mentioned one of the strengths, which I agree with, would be across multiple institutions. So thinking about the generalized ability of this data, tell us a little bit more about those three institutions and why that is a strength as we consider how this might apply to other colleges and other students across the country.

Nick Hagemeier: Yeah, so we could really separate out the data, you know, but I think that there is strength in the end there that you get from three different institutions. But you’ve UT, which is a public university. You’ve got Lipscomb, which is a private university. Then you’ve got ETSU, which is kind of the mutt, right? We’re a private college within a public university, which I don’t know if most people are aware of that or not.

Tim Ulbrich: I did not know that, no.

Nick Hagemeier: Yeah, so there were no state dollars to support ETSU opening a College of Pharmacy.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Nick Hagemeier: Back in the day, and the only college of pharmacy was in Memphis at UT. But it was a private model within a public university, so it’s a completely tuition-driven college. So I mean, you’ve got three different types of colleges, all three of those exist around the U.S. And we looked at common themes across all three of those.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. And from what I can remember, over 700 usable responses, really strong response rate, around 90%. So talk us through with that data in mind of the main findings of the study. And then we’ll talk about what those perhaps could mean and the implications of those.

Nick Hagemeier: Sure. So one of the things, and one of our hypotheses was that the amount of indebtedness, so the actual dollar amount, would impact post-grad training, pursuance direct entry into practice versus pursuing another path. And so that was one thing we were going to look at. And then something else that was interesting were just perceptions, right? Because you can have this dollar amount, but if you don’t pay any attention to it, maybe it doesn’t matter.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Nick Hagemeier: Maybe it doesn’t matter. And so we were interested in really both of those. And I was really interested in self-efficacy beliefs too because confidence, you know, confidence is really important. There’s all kinds of literature that shows that’s the case. Now, whether students are accurately reporting their confidence, if their confidence actually matches their ability, that’s another question. But those were some of the things that we were looking at. So I think the main finding here was that the actual student loan debt amount wasn’t predictive of pursuing post-grad training. But the perception of debt pressure and stress associated with that debt was predictive. So I think you know, that to me was — we didn’t anticipate finding that, but that was just a really interesting finding. And it’s really cool because that’s modifiable.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Nick Hagemeier: Right? We can equip students with some of the skills and knowledge that, just help them manage that stress, manage that debt, minimize that debt and therefore, position them to pursue the careers that they want to pursue.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think that’s a really important point as we just summarized that as I understand it, Nick, to reiterate what you said, the actual indebtedness amount that they reported or projected indebtedness upon graduation didn’t have an impact on their career decision options they were considering for the future, but rather, the debt influence and pressure and their perception of that, which was a combination of how they responded to a series of questions around things like I’m concerned about my anticipated debt load, I feel pressure to get out of debt, my debt load factors in my career plans after I graduate, my debt load influences my decisions. So I think that perception, I’m so glad you assessed that because I think that’s been my experience in working with students as well as my personal experience, you know, sometimes the dollar amount, especially when we think about it from the student perspective, the actual dollar amount may not necessarily have hit them yet. But it may be weighing on their mind, and for students at different levels. You know, I’ll talk with some students sometimes that have $75,000-80,000 of projected debt and they’re very much thinking about the stress. And I’ll speak with others that maybe $250,000 or $300,000 of projected debt, and you know, it still feels like at that point Monopoly money and something that’s not top of mind.

Nick Hagemeier: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: One of the things I found really interesting — and I wanted to pick your brain on this — is when I was looking at the findings presented in the results section, Table 2, which was the pharmacy student personal finance constructs and perceptions, I was caught off guard — and these, as I understand it, were a series of questions they responded on a Likert Scale with a higher number essentially indicating a more favorable response and agreement. And as I looked at those, I was caught off guard by how high these responses were. So for example, questions like “I’m confident in my ability to manage my personal finances,” the mean was a 3.81. Again, 1-5 scale. “I’m confident in my ability to get out of debt,” 4.05. So to me, when I saw that, I feel like there’s perhaps some overconfidence here. I mean, can you speak to that and what you’ve seen either in other literature — I know from my experience looking at some of the vet med literature, which I know has published more in this area of personal finance, there’s a lot of data supporting the idea that perhaps overconfident in school and underestimating what impact that’s going to have in the future. So was there anything there that you took away to say maybe there is some overconfidence here in the response?

Nick Hagemeier: Well, I completely agree with you. You know, again, this is just anecdotal, but based on some of my experiences and conversations that I’ve had with students that I know responded a 4 or 5 on this, and you know, I’ll talk to them about, “OK, so you’re confident in your ability to develop a personal budget.” “Yes, I am.” “OK, what about like sticking to it?” “Oh, I don’t ever stick to it. But I can develop one.” So part of it’s in the items that I asked. But again, I think that this is something where a lot of students probably covered it in high school, they’re familiar with it. So there’s comfort in saying that I’m confident in things with which I’m familiar.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure. Yep.

Nick Hagemeier: But again, you mentioned in the beginning, it’s behavior-based. And man, some of these behaviors are so hard. And I do feel like this is a situation where they’re probably overconfident. I don’t think their behaviors, their knowledge or their skill set matches those high numbers that you see in the manuscript.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and one of the things I noticed too as I was looking at the data, again anecdotally talking from my experience working with students, is the item they rated the lowest on relative to the others was the statement, “I’m confident in my ability to choose appropriate investment option.” And I will say consistently when I talk with students about what’s the topic you feel least confident about and you want more information? It often is investing. And similarly, you know, I feel like that sometimes they feel perhaps overinundated with like student loan debt information but when I sit down and talk about repayment options and really dig into the weeds, I sense that there’s a feeling that they may not need that information. But once you dig in, they really have some of those Aha! moments of like oh my gosh, I had no idea of the implications of if I choose this one repayment option versus this and why this decision is so important. So I say this because I think it’s important — and we’ll talk more about this as we talk about next steps in personal finance education — I think it’s important we look at the responses and how students feel but also take a step back and layer on top of that what do we think they really need? And does their reported confidence in perhaps being ready to address and tackle the student loan debt, is that reality? Or do we still need to spend more time? Because I think it’s a topic that at the surface may not seem so overwhelming but can certainly be complicated when we think about the nuances of repayment and the implications it has with the rest of their financial plan.

Nick Hagemeier: Yeah, I agree. And we try to link them together. We try to talk about with our students, this ability to develop a budget, it may not seem that related to your ability to choose appropriate investment options.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Nick Hagemeier: But wow, if you can figure out the budgeting part and maximize the amount that you can put towards your student loan debt and towards your investments and etc., etc., and then that really gets their attention. So it’s the linking them has been impactful.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Nick Hagemeier: From a teaching perspective. But yeah, I completely agree with you. It is important to pay attention to those numbers. And you know, in our class, we lovingly call them out if we feel like you’re overconfident. Well, that’s awesome, but your behaviors aren’t matching what your confidence levels. Yeah. They’re not matching.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure. Talk to us a little bit more about what you found in terms of their — the connection between this debt influence and pressure perceptions and their actual areas of training after graduation, whether that be the decision to pursue post-graduate training or not or even going into, say, a hospital practice versus chain community or supermarket mass-merchandiser type of practice.

Nick Hagemeier: Yeah, so we did a couple different models here. And this Table 3 in the manuscript, you see the unadjusted odds ratio, so that’s just looking at each one of these variables independently. And debt pressure perceptions are mentioned in there was a significant predictor there. It’s the only one that is. And we dumped them all into this soup together and looked at an adjusted odds ratio. And it still held there that debt pressure perceptions were the only significant predictor. Again, student loan debt, anticipated student loan debt at graduation wasn’t. When we looked at it from a — I mean, there’s significant overlap here, I will tell you that because you know, when we’re looking at community chain versus independent versus supermarket mass-merchandiser versus hospital. So most of your people that are going to pursue residency are going to be in that hospital bucket, right? So there’s some overlap here. But the debt pressure perceptions, they significantly predicted going into chain community as compared to going into hospital. OK? Which is just another way to say what we saw with pursuing post-graduate training or directly entering practice. We thought there might be differences across some of the higher paying, historically higher paying jobs that they’re in practice as compared to some that may not be. And we saw a little bit of that, but I mean the biggest difference was by far the hospital versus community chain.

Tim Ulbrich: So I know we’re conjecturing here a little bit, but taking this data and then thinking about what’s been evolving or changing in the last few years, and this is I think difficult because we look at the Bureau of Labor Statistics data as one way to track some of the workforce trends and obviously the salary trends of a pharmacist. I think it often leaves us wondering, well, for new practitioners, I know here at least in the Columbus, Ohio, area, we’re definitely seeing a trend where what might have been when I graduated in 2008 the community position as being more of the lucrative financial move, that is changing because of several companies making decisions to go back down to 32 hours, some more recently even cutting pay and some as recent with the COVID-19 situation and then obviously also just thinking about the relative flat nature of those salaries over time. So do you see this changing, this perception of students and what they viewed as perhaps the debt influence and perception impacting a decision that if I’ve got more debt, I might be thinking about more of the community space because of the financial benefit to that position? Do you think that’s a ship we’ll see going forward?

Nick Hagemeier: Yeah, that’s a great question. And you know, succinctly, I don’t really know.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Nick Hagemeier: I think that there’s a lot more transparency and some of the other issues that have surfaced — and they were there when I was in chain as well — but some issues with patient safety and workload and things like that that I think are more in the media now, they’re more on the minds of our students. And I don’t think it’s as simple as dollars. I don’t have any data to support that, I just think that just based on some conversations with students, I think that this is really something that’s top of mind. And they’re realizing it’s a complex decision. And you’re right, Tim, all those things that you mentioned about salaries are flat at best and you know, there’s a lot of unknowns right now. So short answer is I don’t know.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Nick Hagemeier: But I think that still, it to me, it just takes me back to this is all the more reason to help students figure out how to manage money in pharmacy school.

Tim Ulbrich: Amen.

Nick Hagemeier: So that they have the skill set to make decisions that are in the best interest of themselves and their loved ones and the people that they’re caring for. And you know, that’s something I’m really passionate about, and I just, I think that this is just driving home the point that this is really important now. Not when you get out, this is really important now. And we have a ton of success stories, and we’ll tell — we share with our students the success stories of previous students about — we’ve had students that were spending $1,200 a month eating out.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Nick Hagemeier: Like wow.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Nick Hagemeier: I’ve got a family of six, and our budget is $300. So you know, just kind of helping them see that and put some numbers with some of their behaviors. And then adjust it and then figure out hey, I’m not miserable. You know, I was actually able to save close to $10,000 over the course of an academic year. I mean, we’ve had just outrageously successful students that make game-changing decisions. And they don’t even recognize how big of changes those are yet. They won’t recognize that until they get out and can make those loan payments so much easier.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Nick Hagemeier: And see some of the fruits of their labor.

Tim Ulbrich: I agree, and it reminds me as you were talking, Nick, of I had Dr. Daniel Crosby on the show talking about his book, “The Behavioral Investor.” And he studies behavioral economics. Essentially, that’s his job is to look at all that and look at the research. And he talks a lot about the correlations between happiness and money and talks about that threshold where somewhere around the $70,000 mark where you’ve got enough to cover your basic living expenses and have a little bit of margin and breathing room. But after that, you start to see an inverse relationship happen. And I think that’s been my personal experience as well as so many students I’ve worked with is when they start to identify that point of OK, living on a budget and being able to do so so that I can achieve my goals and have some healthy level of restriction, again, not in a negative sense but in more intentional allocation of funds, like I think there’s actually an ironic happiness that comes from that, especially as you then start to be able to free up funds and do things that the literature does support provides happiness like giving and experiences and other things like that as well. So I love the passion for I think igniting this desire in students to learn. And let’s talk about that more because in the article, you mention that this study could serve as an intervention point for colleges so they can support student pharmacists and the debt pressure they face. Talk to us a little bit more about what you think that looks like in an ideal state in terms of how we best support our students. Is it a personal finance elective that’s kind of a one-and-done? Is it something more longitudinal where we hit them at multiple points in time? Is it required? Is it optional? What are your thoughts around this?

Nick Hagemeier: Well, I think that it could be a mixed bag. I mean, one thing that I think for sure is this is not a one dose and done. I think that this warrants discussion throughout the curriculum. And you know, it could certainly be an elective, and we have the elective here. But I have framed it in terms of wellbeing. I really like how Gallup defines wellbeing across the five domains with career or purpose, community, social, financial, physical. And I’m really defining that financial wellbeing for students the way that Gallup defines it, not in terms of the amount of money you make, but it’s more about security and living within your means. And that gets their attention. And we assess wellbeing frequently. So this is top of mind, this is something that our mentors will discuss with the mentees. So this is something that I kind of get the pleasure of championing this wellbeing initiative at ETSU and the mentoring program. So I’ve kind of got a built-in mechanism to facilitate conversations with students and do so on a regular basis. Now, that doesn’t mean that necessarily all of our faculty are equipped to have those conversations. But again, they know they’ve got resources in the elective and in Brian Cross and myself to get them help if they need it. So I don’t know that there’s a necessarily like a magic way or a best way. I don’t think we have the evidence to support that. But I do think that, you know, I would prefer it be if possible to get it in front of all the students and for people that have access to students to think of creative ways to frame it. You know, wellbeing, I think students were less familiar with that than they are money. And so framing it in that way I think has worked to our benefit — and I don’t know if they know it or not yet, but theirs as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Nick Hagemeier: That’s been our approach, and I think that that’s worked pretty well.

Tim Ulbrich: I agree with you wholeheartedly. And I think we don’t yet have the evidence to say this is the best approach. I mean anecdotally and my gut says I feel like it’s something that’s more longitudinal in nature and that really meets the students where they are. So as I think about the financial needs of an incoming P1, you know, to me, really understanding like the anatomy of a student loan is really important because I think — again, I don’t have the literature to back this up — but I think if you really understand the anatomy of a loan and interest and the types of loans, that likely might help shift your behavior while you’re in school and obviously have long-term impacts afterwards. Whereas we think about like P4, OK, they’re getting ready to enter obviously into that new practitioner phase, get ready to go into active repayment, a lot of the decisions resulting in the debt load they have at the moment have been made. But they’re now entering a different phase of how do I actually manage this debt? And then obviously other decisions, investing and life planning and all those other things. So I think something more longitudinal in nature. The other thing we talk a lot about, Nick, at Ohio State is how do we customize this? You know, I think and I sense that this resonates with the learner, which I think is true in learning in general — but how do we customize this, especially when we’re talking about a topic that is so inherently personal, right? So if we know the literatures shows about 15% of students graduate without student loan debt, so if we do have education materials, well, for those students, you know, how do we engage them in other topics that are most meaningful? Or we know that students come in with a very different baseline understanding of this topic, perhaps that they had in their home life or previous coursework that they’ve taken, so how do we provide some base education for all students but then almost allow like a choose-your-own adventure based on the goals that they have as well as the existing knowledge and experiences they’ve had?

Nick Hagemeier: Yeah, that’s — I mean, those are great thoughts. And I think that you know, something that I’ve — again, I don’t necessarily know that I have the evidence. I think I do, but the knowledge versus skill. Completely knowledge-based experience or whatever that might be, I just don’t think it’s going to be that impactful.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Nick Hagemeier: You know, just like me sitting in a CE program that’s completely knowledge-based, to what extent am I actually going to take that and use it? It’s tough because it involves behavior change. So for the most — you know, our first stop is the budget and that basic behavior. And from there, because we’ve seen students that don’t have any student loan debt. But they don’t know how to do a budget.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Nick Hagemeier: There’s just some very basic things. But if we can meet students where they are, that would be fantastic. That’s probably easier said than done.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Nick Hagemeier: But it’s worth trying to do.

Tim Ulbrich: And we’ve had a little bit of success, I think the online space has allowed us to do a little bit more of that, of the customization of learning that we may not be able to do as much in the classroom. But I think it’s just a good reminder for hopefully we have some colleges and faculty listening about collaborating and here, we’re sharing ideas but others doing the same. Nick, the last question I have for you is in the background of the article, you talk about how an educational investment is composed of both a monetary investment, so tuition, and an opportunity cost, time spent in school. So if we look at the sharp increase in student loan debt in pharmacy education, so 2010 the median indebtedness of a graduate for those that had debt was $100,000. 2019, that was $170,000. So just a nine-year period, $70,000 increase. What advice would you have for high school students, undergrad students that are evaluating this educational investment? They’ve determined that pharmacy is the career path for them, they want to be a pharmacist. But they also see what’s ahead of them in terms of this educational investment. What suggestions would you have for them?

Nick Hagemeier: Wow. That’s a really good question. Actually, I just before recording this, Tim, had a talk with some students from academic APPE. And one of the questions that they asked me was what advice would you give to high school students that are interested in pursuing pharmacy, given the current landscape? Which isn’t a whole lot different than the question you just asked. And my response was that they need to look at what it is about the profession that just really lights a fire in them. And then try to figure out — like do some research and try to figure out, you know, can I expect that that’s going to be present in this profession when I graduate? It’s changing so fast. And you know, I think that the more exposure that we can get students to different careers in pharmacy and informing them — you know, and AACP has done a good job of this here in recent years, of just trying to show what can a pharmacist actually do? Because there’s so many misperceptions there. But I think that thinking beyond what they see currently in the profession to what it could be. And then seeing if they’ve got the passion to drive it to what it could be, that’s hard work. That’s my — I think that’s my best way of answering that question. It’s so hard. There’s so many different biases that I have there and different life experiences that influence that. You know, would I do this again? Yup. But I would do it in a lot more informed manner. I kind of took the scenic route and made a lot of dumb decisions along the way. You know, looking back, I could have done this a lot better.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I agree with you. And I think as you define that, you know, in the article in terms of the educational investment, I think that — I didn’t think about it that way. And I agree with you. I could have made the same decision, I think I would have just made a little bit more of a straight path, which is easy to say, right, in hindsight?

Nick Hagemeier: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: But I think when you think about your investment and I would say tuition as well as cost of living — because we see so much of the actual indebtedness is cost of living that’s taken out on unsubsidized loans that are accruing interest — and then the opportunity cost, I mean obviously that time spent, that variable you may or may not be able to impact in a significant way. But the cost of getting there and how you get there and how you minimize the indebtedness, which obviously impacts what it looks like on the back end, I think is certainly a variable that the student, prospective student, can change but also that we on the side of the education part can also help our students be able to navigate that in a little bit better way.

Nick Hagemeier: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And you know, just reflecting on my response to that question, if I would have taken the more direct route, I wouldn’t have struggled in all these areas of wellbeing, you know? And then I’m thinking, well, shoot, then maybe I wouldn’t even be able to have that much of an impact on students now and helping them succeed financially.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Nick Hagemeier: So then now I’m like, well, maybe I don’t regret what I did.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Nick Hagemeier: You know, I made some dumb decisions so that you don’t have to and helping students appreciate that and helping them figure out as a high school student that your career starts — when you’re in college, consider that a career. And helping them think about money and you mentioned too that the opportunity cost, the amount of dollars that have to be borrowed or that can be borrowed aren’t necessarily the amount of dollars that you need to borrow and helping them understand that on the back side. I’ll tell you, one thing that we’ve done that’s been really impactful and it’s kind of funny, but I don’t know, Tim, do you all have Cookout up there?

Tim Ulbrich: No.

Nick Hagemeier: The restaurant? OK. It’s a little fast food restaurant that’s really close to the chain, and it’s really close to the college pharmacy. A lot of students go there. And so we’ve kind of — you mentioned like the anatomy of a student loan and the interest. We’ve taken that and applied it to eating at Cookout. So Cookout is known for their $4.99, you can get all you want for $4.99 there. And then trying to take that out over OK, so you’re using that $4.99, that’s borrowed money. Right? So if it’s not, let’s pretend that it is. And then I’m going to choose an interest rate that’s pertinent now for student loans and we’re going to look at that over a 10-year. How much is your Cookout actually costing you when you’re paying it back in 10 years? OK, what about if you do it on a 25-year loan? And holy smokes, they just like are like, “I don’t think I even want to go to Cookout anymore.”

Tim Ulbrich: Right? Right.
Nick Hagemeier: Just helping them realize some of those everyday decisions that they’re making and what that looks like in terms of loan anatomy and futuring. That can be really impactful and at least evokes an emotional response in them, which I think is something that’s necessary to really have impact here.

Tim Ulbrich: I agree, I love how you teach that because it makes it real, right? That’s something they deal with every day. Maybe not every day, but you know, every week or however often they go. And I think making this topic that can seem so big, so overwhelming, especially when you’re talking about big numbers of what you’re going to pay back over 10 or 25 years, but saying OK, the decisions you’re making today, what does that look like? What impact does that have? And really trying to make it as tangible as possible. And I love, Nick, what you said, you know, one of the things that people ask me all the time is, would you have done things differently? Absolutely, I would have done a lot of things differently. Do I regret the path that I’ve taken? And my answer is no, for the exact reason that you mentioned, that learning through those decisions and then being able to teach and influence others, like I think it’s worth it. Would I have done it differently? Yes. Do I regret it? No. So I appreciate so much, Nick, your passion for this topic. I appreciate you taking time to come on the show to discuss your journey and the article that you published in AJPE, “Student Pharmacists Personal Finance Perceptions, Projected Indebtedness upon Graduation, and Career Decision-Making.” So thank you so much, Nick.

Nick Hagemeier: Absolutely. Thanks, Tim. I really appreciate being here.

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