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Month: May 2019

YFP 102: An Interview with Dr. Suzanne Soliman: Founder of the Pharmacist Moms Group

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An Interview with Dr. Suzanne Soliman: Founder of the Pharmacist Moms Group

Dr. Suzanne Soliman, Founder of Pharmacist Moms Group, joins Tim Ulbrich to dive deep into her motivativation for launching the group, resources the group offers, where this movement is heading and how she carves out time for her business.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Suzanne Soliman earned her PharmD from the University of Illinois at Chicago in 2004. She then completed a residency in primary care with an emphasis on education at Midwestern University Chicago College of Pharmacy and a teaching fellowship at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Medicine. Suzy worked as a clinical pharmacist, a medical science liaison and national field team educator prior to becoming an Assistant Dean of Academic Affairs at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Pharmacy. She most recently was an Associate Dean at Touro College of Pharmacy New York and an independent pharmacy owner.

Suzy has 75 publications and has presented at numerous national meetings. She is a Rufus A. Lyman award recipient which is granted for the best manuscript published in the American Journal of Pharmacy Education. Suzy has served as a medical expert on a number of pharmacy issues and has been a reviewer for Annals of Pharmacotherapy and Currents in Pharmacy Teaching and Learning. She has been quoted in “Crain”, “Chicago Business Magazine” and “Time Out Chicago”. Currently, she is the Chief Academic Officer for the Accreditation Council for Medical Affairs (ACMA). Her areas of interest are assessment and development of medical affairs professionals.

Summary

Dr. Suzanne Soliman began the Pharmacist Moms Group after feeling guilty for missing her son’s baseball game. When training to be a pharmacist, so many had said that it was a great career for moms because it had such a great schedule. Conversely, Suzy found that she was working late nights and weekends which caused her to miss her children’s events and games. After not being able to sleep one night because of the guilt, Suzy created the group on Facebook because she wanted to connect with other pharmacist moms who were experiencing what she was. Today, the group boasts over 25,000 members.

The Pharmacist Moms Group offers several resources to its’ members and focuses on creating a strong support network no matter what phase of life you are going through. The Pro Group Membership is now offered which includes resume review, expert talks, continuing education credits, and additional support. The group also offers discounts on two board certifications.

Suzy didn’t expect the growth that the group has seen and hasn’t put in any money to advertise. It has simply grown from the support that is offered to one another. There are 8 moderators and admins that are involved with the Facebook group. A Director of Research has been added to the leadership team to focus solely on research. Although she feels that there is never enough time in the day, Suzy finds time to work on this movement in the early morning or evening when her children are sleeping and answers emails whenever she’s in line waiting for something.

As far as personal finance is concerned, Suzy sees that the main financial challenges the group faces are regarding student loans and 529s. Suzy’s advice to anyone who is overwhelmed with student loan debt or is frustrated that they aren’t progressing in their financial plan in the way they want is to live within your means, be comfortable with unforeseen circumstances, and get or create a side hustle to bring in extra income.

Suzy is passionate and incredibly motivated to help propel woman in pharmacy in equality and to step into leadership positions.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Over the past year, as you know, we’ve been featuring several inspiring side hustle stories — shoutout to our team member Tim Church, who’s been leading that — as well as several entrepreneurial journeys. And we have another great one for you today. I’m excited to welcome Dr. Suzanne Soliman to talk about her career journey, her work in founding the Pharmacist Moms Group, and to discuss the financial challenges and questions that are top-of-mind for their 25,000+ members. So a little bit about Suzi before we jump into the interview today: Dr. Suzanne Soliman earned her PharmD from the University of Illinois at Chicago in 2004. She completed residency training in primary care with an emphasis on education at Midwestern University Chicago College of Pharmacy and a teaching fellowship at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Medicine. Suzi worked as a clinical pharmacist and medical science liaison and national field team educator prior to becoming an assistant dean of academic affairs at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Pharmacy. She most recently was an associate dean at Touro College of Pharmacy in New York and independent pharmacy owner. She has over 75 publications, has presented at numerous national meetings, she is a Rufus Lyman award recipient, which is granted for the best manuscript published in the American Journal of Pharmacy Education. She served as the medical expert on a number of pharmacy issues and has been a reviewers for the Annals of Pharmacotherapy and Currents in Pharmacy Teaching and Learning. She’s been quoted in Crane, Chicago Business Magazine and Timeout Chicago. Currently, she’s the Chief Academic Officer for the accreditation council for medical affairs. Her areas of interest are assessment and development of medical affairs professionals. Suzi, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast!

Suzanne Soliman: Thank you, Tim. Thanks for having me on the show.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, excited to have you. And now that we know a little bit more about your background, let’s talk about your work in building the Pharmacist Moms Group, which I have to say, you and I talked a couple years ago, so I’ve been able to watch this journey from afar, when you were just beginning, seeing it grow. There’s now more than 25,000 members, and I saw on your website, there’s over 2 million posts, comments and reactions on your Facebook page in 2018. So clearly, you have identified a need, a pain point, and area of interest where there’s others that are desiring for or have a problem that needs to be solved. So tell us a little bit about the Pharmacist Moms Group.

Suzanne Soliman: Sure. So thank you for the introduction and everything. But the Pharmacist Moms Group, it just kind of started. And I know I’ve talked about this before, but basically, my son, who had a baseball game and I couldn’t attend because I was working, and I felt really bad. You go into pharmacy a lot of times — I know a lot of my mom friends have said this — go in because you hear, oh, it’s a great profession to be a mom, you know? And then what I found was I was working late, I was missing games, I was working weekends, and I felt bad. I couldn’t sleep one night, so I decided to start this group. I went online and invited my friends and just said, you know, “I feel really bad. I feel this guilt, and I don’t know what to do.” And I felt that other pharmacists could relate. There were other moms groups that I was a part of, but I really felt that I wanted to talk to pharmacist moms because they went through similar type of rigorous education or residency or fellowship training. So for me, I felt that I really wanted to connect with other pharmacist moms. And what I found was that a lot of other women felt the same way that I did. And the group has just kind of grown from there. It’s really just been a support group, a group for each other to bounce questions off of each other, whether they’re personal questions, not pharmacy-related, or pharmacy-related. And so we’ve kind of just grown from there and you know, really learned from one another.

Tim Ulbrich: I think when you say “kind of grown,” I think you’re being humble, which I appreciate. But “exploded” might be a better word. But I think clearly, you’ve got great brand recognition with what you’re doing. And I love that it’s not just about growing a business, growing a brand, like you’re doing it out of obviously motivations of developing a community and support and resources for one another, something that you felt like you needed and obviously others, that has resonated with. So let me ask you this, so you mention on your website that the goal of the group is simple, the Pharmacist Moms Group, to create a supportive community full of cool resources for pharmacist moms. So what does that practically look like? If somebody were to come to your website or join the Facebook group or the community, what exactly does that look like in terms of the community and the resources that you offer?

Suzanne Soliman: You really hit the nail on the head because I think for me, I’ve always been passionate about women and pharmacy and that entire area. I mean, it just speaks to me. I love it, and I’m passionate about it, and so what I found was that what our group offers — and we’ve evolved. So you know, initially, it was just kind of questions. And then someone said, “You know what? I’m learning so much from this group, why don’t we earn Continuing Education for some of these posts?” So we’ve partnered with a CE company, and we’re now earning Continuing Education credits. We’re also a supportive network, so we’ve had pharmacists going through divorce, going through loss. We’ve tried to connect — when there was a pharmacist who was actually shot working in the pharmacy, we tried to raise money for her and her technician. We’ve really tried to support one another throughout our careers. There’s new moms on there, there’s mothers who are grandmothers now who are on there who’ve gone through a lot and can offer a lot of experience and knowledge to one another. And we offer a pro group now where you get a resume review included. We have a book club. Just mountains and mountains of different areas. And we’ve also started these little subgroups now because the group is so large. So we have an independent pharmacist moms group, so if you own your own independent or you’re thinking about it, and the hospital pharmacy group. So we’ve kind of started forming these smaller communities within this large community.

Tim Ulbrich: So for those that are listening that haven’t already checked out or aren’t aware of what you’re doing, head on over to PharmacistMomsGroup.com or certainly the Facebook group I think is a great point to jump in, lots of different areas. I know you’re active on Instagram and others as well. So I want to talk a little bit from a business perspective. You know, as you’ve experienced such a significant growth in a short period of time — and I can tell that you’ve evolved, you know, when you think back to your son’s baseball game and when this initial idea came to be, could you have envisioned what this looks like right now? I mean, did you see the vision and it was just a matter of time to build it? Or has this really evolved over time as you took one step and then you identified another need, another need and then another need.

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah, I think it’s more of the latter. So I did not expect this at all. I always tell everyone, I haven’t put in any money for advertising. This is really just a community that’s grown from the support that we offer one another and from being kind to each other and trying to help each other and really be there for one another. And it’s evolved. So like I had mentioned, when someone brought up the idea of the Continuing Education, we’re like, you know what, that’s a good idea. Let’s try to do that. Or if they brought up the subgroups, you know, I have a question, but I really want to group it or send it only to these pharmacists. So we’ve really evolved. And one of the things that was great that we identified from the group was that women were graduating for the past four decades at higher levels than male pharmacy students. So we’ve graduated more and more female students. But we didn’t really recognize where they’ve come. So we established the first Women Pharmacists Day last year, and it will continue this year. So again, it’s just been — I want to say evolving throughout this time. And it’s been great. It’s been a lot of fun, I’ve met a lot of great people. I’ve made a lot of new friends. And I am just so passionate about this area, and I think that it’s an area that we really need to provide support for. We need to remember that there are women who are working retail and at a retail chain store, and they might have babies at home, and they need to pump at work, and there’s no place to pump. We need to be their voice, we need to let everyone know about that.

Tim Ulbrich: What I’ve really enjoyed, Suzi, watching from afar — obviously, I’m not a pharmacist mom, so I’m not in the group — but watching the growth and the interest is that when I hear you talk about the community and supporting one another, I mean, at the end of the day, any great business is built off of providing great value. And you know, I think of Seth Godin, and he talks about the concept of tribe and building a community that is passionate about helping one another and moving a certain issue or advancing a certain topic forward, and I think that’s what you’ve done so well here. And I think you and I both would agree on this, at the end of the day, if you can find something you’re really, really passionate about, and it can empower and help other people and you can ultimately make a business of it, that’s a win-win all around. And I think that that’s what makes all of this so much fun. So talk to me a little bit about the business model. So we may have people out there listening to this podcast thinking about, hey, I’ve got this great idea, and maybe it involves community directly, maybe it doesn’t. But ultimately, even though you grow something, you’re investing time, you’re investing some resources, obviously probably time may be the most significant one, but at the end of the day, as you think about this in terms of a business for the future, what does the model of this look like for you in terms of either sponsorship for the pro group? So talk to us more about the business model of Pharmacist Moms Group.

Suzanne Soliman: I’m still unsure of the actual business model. I didn’t set out for it in that way, but ultimately, you’re right. It takes hours and hours of work, so the main thing is that we have moderators and admins, and I have a great group of pharmacists that I’ve met who are really involved. And right now, it’s about the time and energy that we’re putting into the group. So I think that there are so many of us now. There’s like eight of us, actually, and we actually have one woman who’s focused solely on the research aspect. So for me, it’s also about the research part of the group. As a former professor and administrator at two colleges — or three colleges of pharmacy, I understand the importance of data and having the data behind it. And with numbers where we hit 25,000 pharmacists, surveying them, understanding their needs, presenting this at national meetings, talking about what people out in the field are experiencing that those working in a different area might not realize that they’re experiencing. So I think for me, that’s been an area that we’re planning to focus on. So one of the moderators now in our group, that’s her area. She’s kind of the Director of Research. Her name is Eva Ferris-Colon (?), she’s going to be kind of the Director of Research for the Pharmacist Moms Group. And anyone who’s interested in studying or surveying us and finding out about different areas, so that’s definitely something that we’re planning. And for me, it’s really going to continue to evolve. I think that ultimately, my goal for this group is really to empower women pharmacists and help their careers, help them in their careers, help them propel their careers, help them answer questions so that they don’t feel alone. I know myself, sometimes you’re alone in a pharmacy. You might be working only with technicians. And when I say “alone,” like without peers at a similar level. So you might have techs that you’re working with, but you might not have another pharmacist to bounce a question off of or you might be working on a team in a hospital, but you might not have that pharmacist with you as well. So for me, that’s really where we’re going. Facebook asked us — now going back to the business question — so Facebook actually approached us and they asked us to start this subscription model. So we started the pro group, and it’s been great. Really, within that group, we’ve incorporated a lot of the Continuing Education, the resume review, different ideas, bringing experts like yourself to come and talk to the group, which has been great. And I think that’s where I see the business for the Pharmacist Moms Group going is that we’re kind of a one-stop shop where you can hear from these experts, you can have your support group, you can have your laughs, your jokes, and you can earn your CE and kind of do everything at one point. And if you need a resume review yearly, that’s included too. So that’s kind of where I see it going.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I really like what you’re doing with the pro membership concept. I think that’s a business model for others to think about is that you’ve got lots of resources and opportunity for people to engage and develop a community that could happen for free, but also, there’s a subset of people that want to engage at a different level. And I think again, you know, it’s an investment of time and resource and other things. And so I think your pro membership option allows that. And so, to put a plug in for that, if you go PharmacistMomsGroup.com, you’ll see information on there about the pro membership. It’s $59.99 per year, and it looks like there’s a coupon code, SAVE10 for $10 off your first year. And so as I understand it, Suzi, essentially then there’s a package of resources or additional benefits that people get in the pro membership that they may not necessarily otherwise get. So member-only CEs, monthly member-only live sessions, live trainings, you mentioned the resume review, exclusive discounts, and so I think that model is something to consider for others that are of value and different options for their business as well.

Suzanne Soliman: Yes. We actually recently just partnered with two — so we have two different board certifications that you can get a discount on too, so the board certification for MTM. If you’re a member of the pro group, you can get a discount on it. Board certification for medical affairs, if you’re a member of the pro group, you can get your application fee waived. So there’s different benefits as well. And then we partnered with Mama Jamas, and they’re a company —

Tim Ulbrich: I saw that.

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah, so they offer — they actually started out in Nordstrom, and they have this amazing clothing line, and so we get discounts for that. So there’s a bunch of different areas that we’re able to offer discounts for for pharmacist moms.

Tim Ulbrich: So let’s talk for a minute about personal finance as it relates to the Pharmacist Moms Group. And I know you and I, as you mentioned, have partnered on several education sessions, actually doing one this afternoon, which I am excited about for your pro group. And based on these sessions, the feedback that I’ve seen and seeing the mention of personal finance as a topic of interest on your website, you know, I presume this is a topic that’s frequently discussed among your community members. So what are some of the financial challenges that you see your community is facing?

Suzanne Soliman: So I think the No. 1 thing that I always see posted is really to do with student loans and paying them off or not paying them off. And there’s so many people who have — they do have the money to pay it off, and then they’re wondering if they should or if they should just wait. So that’s the first thing. And then the second thing is more my personal question that I would love to ask you — and I do see it posted from time-to-time, but it’s really related to 529s for children because for me, my husband and I have put in money for our children into them, but I always wonder if we’re wasting our money putting it into the 529 because what if our kids, for example, get a scholarship? Or what if another child decides they don’t want to go to college? And what happens to our money? So I guess I’m always hesitant when we do it. I understand the tax benefit, you know, but then I’m always nervous about well, what if in 10 or 15 years, this child is like — I don’t know, something happens that’s different than what we thought of.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s a great question, actually something my wife and I have talked a lot about. And let me just address that briefly because we really haven’t talked about 529s on the podcast a whole lot. So this is a good opportunity to do it. And actually, I think that was one of the questions submitted by your members that we’re going to address this afternoon in the Facebook Live as well. You know, the reason I struggle with 529s — and I will say my wife and I, so we have contributions for all three of our kids in there right now. I would say we’re kind of meddling in the middle. Like we really haven’t gone all-in and in part, for us, what I struggle with to the 529s is certainly a great tax advantaged savings vehicle, it essentially operates like a Roth IRA for college. So money you put in, it’s already been taxed, and it’s going to grow, grow tax-free. You can pull it out as long as you’re using it for educational benefits, which is pretty broad. I mean, it could be tuition, it can be board, it can be books. And one of the advantage, especially if you have multiple children, is the opportunity to transfer it within the family. And I believe within siblings, so like I could transfer it to my brother’s kids, for example, if for whatever reason, my kids weren’t going to use it. So let’s say my oldest son decides not to go to school for whatever reason or he gets a scholarship, but my other two do, I would have the option to transfer it. So there is that flexibility, which has the advantage. The thing I struggle with, Suzi, a little bit is what does the future of college education look like?

Suzanne Soliman: Yes, I know. Yeah, yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: I mean, right? So you know, I know you have your oldest is 15, is that right?

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah, so he is. So I guess that’s the thing. So some of the schools — I’m sure you’ve seen this — but in New York now, public education is free. And I don’t live in New York, but I’m wondering, you know, will that happen in other states? Will that happen in the state I live in? Especially my daughter, my youngest, my daughter is 5, and who knows what’s going to happen in 13 years with education? And then my 15-year-old is — he has a disability, so sometimes I wonder with him, he might not go to school. So then what happens to that money? So I wonder with all of that as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I mean, you’re thinking through it the exact same way my wife and I are. I mean, with I think kids that are closer to college, the system in three or four or five years may very much look like today, but what will it look like in 10 or 15 years? Will free college be normal? Will it keep going up at rates that far outpace inflation and now all of a sudden, we’re going to be up a creek because we didn’t save as much? And I think that’s why we are kind of meddling in a little bit of the middle. We’re contributing, but I’m hesitant to overcontribute. You know, part of my thought is that on some level, if somebody’s in a position where they have no student loan debt, maybe even a house is paid off or close, you know, other goals are on their way to being achieved, retirement, other things that there’s an opportunity to cash flow some of that or even look at alternative options for taking on lower interest rate debt they could pay off. The other thing is, while I would never favor this option, there’s an option to pull money from a Roth IRA for educational expenses that doesn’t get hit with a tax in terms of a penalty, that 10% penalty. So that’s another alternative option. So my wife and I are looking at a combination of since we don’t know what it’s going to look like, we don’t know scholarships, free, all that kind of stuff, maybe they don’t want to go to college, you know, we’re going to have a little bit there, but we’re also going to hopefully cash flow some of that along the way. The other thing, Suzi, I’ve seen — I don’t know if you see your community talking about this — is that I think a lot of pharmacists, especially if they’ve come out with let’s say $150,0000-200,000 of student loan debt, they tend to overcompensate for their situation at the expense of their own other financial goals. So for example, somebody may say, ‘I came out with $200,000 of debt. I absolutely never want my kids to experience any of that. Therefore, I’m going to pay 100% of it,’ but that’s at the expense of saving for retirement or making sure that we have a solid emergency fund, or they’re still carrying around high interest rate debt themselves, and they might be on one hand helping the future with their kids’ college, but on the other hand, overcompensating and hurting their own financial plan. So I think certainly for each person, it’s different. But I think that’s a word of caution I’d give to any of your audience members or our listeners at large is that I think there’s a tendency to overcompensate for what we experience personally and really to try to take a step back objectively and think about it in the context of other goals.

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.

Tim Ulbrich: So Suzi, we often talk with pharmacists, they could be moms, dads, singles, it really doesn’t matter, and hear that they’re overwhelmed with student loan debt, they’re frustrated that they’re not progressing as fast as they would like to be with their financial plan. Based on your own personal experience or what you’ve seen as success stories within your community, what advice would you have for the pharmacist moms out there or even the others at large in terms of those that are facing multiple competing financial priorities and how they can begin to tackle that? Or where should they start in terms of their financial plan?

Suzanne Soliman: So I think that for me, I’m still paying my student loans. But my student loan rate when I graduated — my interest rate is unbelievable. It’s under 2%.

Tim Ulbrich: Crazy.

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah, it’s crazy low. So I’m personally the person who’s waiting the full 30 years, given my rate. And I think that you have to be comfortable — if you are waiting, you have to be comfortable with some level of debt where some people I know, they have the 1%, and they’re just like, no way, I’m going to pay that off. I can’t handle having the 1%. But I’m like, but if you put your money somewhere else, you’re going to earn more than 1%. You know? So you have to feel comfortable with it. If you’re battling it, I mean, for me, I look at if something has a high interest rate, just pay that off first or something that’s smaller, you’d want to pay that off first too. But I think for me, what I’ve realized is that I think sometimes when you’re in pharmacy school, you’re like, I’m going to graduate, and I’m going to go make these big bucks, and once I graduate, I’m just going to be earning so much that I can pay everything off. But then life happens, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Suzanne Soliman: And you have to get a car, and you want a new car because now you’re Dr. Such-and-Such, and you might have done residency. And for myself, my friends were earning six figures, and I was earning $32,000. That was a big difference in salary. So I think that life happens, and different things happen, and it’s really about — I mean, for me, it was trying to live within your means for awhile and then realizing again, then you have children that might come along, might or might not, you know? And you have other expenses. I mean, I was just saying that actually on the phone with my mom today. I had fixed my one car, you know, one car got hit on the garage, and I had to go fix it. And then what happens, I was like, OK, fine, that happened. Then my boys were outside playing basketball, and of course, they break the side view mirror with the basketball. I’m like, I just think that my miscellaneous budget is going to be under this for this month, and then something happens. That’s how life is, so being comfortable with what comes at you and just that we have to all be comfortable with that. You don’t know what the unforeseen circumstances that might come your way. So I don’t know, for me, I don’t necessarily think you have to pay all of your student debt off immediately, but if you do, I’m sure that’s a really, really great feeling. But if there are other things that are more important and then the second thing is always having a side hustle or something else. I mean, when I was in residency, I was still working for one of the chains, you know, kind of as a floater. And then I always tried to do something else or tried to have a couple incomes or sources of income. So that’s always been very helpful for me, at least. It might not work for everyone, but for me, it’s helped.

Tim Ulbrich: I think so. And I think especially, you know, obviously it’s well documented what’s going on in the job market and in many parts of the country, 32 is the new 40 in terms of committed salary, and we’re even seeing some compression in that hourly rate for a pharmacist. But I think a side hustle — not only from the financial piece but also from the pursuit of something you’re passionate about. I mean, there’s something to be said for an area, whether it’s a creative outlet, whether it earns money, maybe a little bit, maybe a lot of bit, to be able to get energy from that I think is one of the often overlooked aspects of a side hustle. So Suzi, let me ask you for the dads that are out there listening to this episode, what advice would you have in terms of how they can best relate with and effectively work with their significant other when it comes to this topic of money? Probably one of the most common questions we get is, hey, I’m really trying to progress the financial plan, but I feel like me and my spouse aren’t on the same page. And we know that certainly is a topic that’s difficult to navigate. So any words of advice from either you personally or what you’ve heard in your community of how somebody may be able to effectively work together with the spouse or significant other?

Suzanne Soliman: You know, OK, I am no expert. But I think that in general, from what I know of either from myself or my friends or within my group community, typically, there’s one person who spends more, and there’s one person who doesn’t. So you know, there’s one person that’s a saver, and there’s one person that’s the spender. And I actually don’t really know many couples where they’re completely aligned. And I think that’s any relationship that you’re in. If you’re in a committed relationship, you just have to find balance between you because you’re never going to — whether it’s related to finance or anything else, you’re not going to find someone that matches your ideals perfectly. So going back to the dads out there, if your wife spent something extra on something, talking about it, but understanding that maybe she has a different level of comfortability. Or vice versa, maybe the dad is the spender, and the mom is the saver, and so understanding that the level of comfortability, having conversations about that I think are important, about levels of risk. I think risk is a big one. So I grew up in a family where risk wasn’t — it wasn’t as tolerated, maybe. So I grew up, my parents taught me, never have credit card debt. If you charge something on a credit card, you have to pay it off immediately. If you don’t have enough cash in the bank, you don’t use it and you don’t use it at all. So I think I was very risk-averse. So even certain things, it’s hard for me to stomach, like purchasing a house, I’m like, oh my gosh, that’s a really big amount of debt you’re going to take on. But then I realize that you know what, that’s just because of how I grew up and things that I was told. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that — some debt is good. And that’s where I began to become comfortable, like I had mentioned, with my student loan debt and saying, you know what — and that’s where I started to invest in the market and become familiar with the market, become familiar with mutual funds. I actually have taught my 7-year-old — he’s 7, and I’ve been teaching him how to check the market and different things.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome.

Suzanne Soliman: So it’s been fun with that. But yeah, I think when it comes to relationships, I think the finance part of it — yeah, you generally hear that’s what people disagree on. But I just think that you have to understand that most couples, whoever you’re with, you’re probably going to disagree with them on certain things. I mean, eventually, you’re going to come to an agreement, but if she really likes those shoes or if he really likes that new electronic, you’re both going to have to be OK with that, you know?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think to highlight what you said there too is also just being aware of that and appreciating what the other person is. I think that there’s no good or bad in a spender and a saver. I think each of them has benefits, and I think often when you have those different money personalities, I think that can be a powerful combination when you get to the point of appreciating it really challenging each other in both of those areas. And I think risk is a great one. You know, you take the idea that you have two people that are very conservative with their financial plan, that may have some significant upsides in some areas, but it also may put a ceiling in terms of what you’re able to really do and grow long-term with your wealth and achieving the other goals that you want to achieve.

Suzanne Soliman: Definitely. I think for me, like what changed my mind was initially, I was doing the savings and my father was saving everything, and he had plans to retire at 55 and he was investing in his 401k’s and would sometimes stay at a lower-end hotel because he wanted to just save. And then my dad got cancer, and he died, you know, quickly. So he never got to enjoy his money or experience it or see it, and what’s interesting is my mother-in-law also passed. She was a teacher, she had a pension, she had everything. She passed at 62 from a brain tumor. So I guess I saw loved ones who never got to get to retirement and enjoy, and that’s what also shifted me to begin to see that, you know what, sometimes, it’s OK to spend. It’s OK to splurge because we’re not sure if we’re going to get that day.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Yeah. And I want to give credit here — Tim Baker does a great job of this. He did with my wife, Jess, and I and others that we work as well, just asking those kind of questions and playing those scenarios out. I mean, if you were to really conservatively save for 40 years and then for whatever reason weren’t able to enjoy it, health, something unexpected, whatever be the case, I mean, what is the point of all of this to begin with? So really identifying that why, that purpose, and I think it’s about balance, right?

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s about not spending outside of your means all the time now, kind of the YOLO concept, but also it’s not about just squirreling away money for 40 years and then hoping you’re healthy enough to be able to enjoy it, so I like the concept Tim Ferriss’ 4-hour workweek, he talks about mini-retirements and this idea of really enjoying this time throughout your career. And I think you can still wisely save up for it and spend it, and I think you can accomplish a little bit of both of these along the way. So let me ask you a few questions in terms of thinking about your business, the direction going forward, and how you balance all of this in terms of full-time job and business. But first, let me start with, you know, we both know well that starting a business, it’s obviously exhilarating, but it’s also difficult. It can be a grind at times, you know, in terms of the time you’re spending, especially as you’re balancing family activities and other things. So what keeps you motivated as you continue to press forward with the Pharmacist Moms Group and that growing while you’re also managing your full-time job?

Suzanne Soliman: So for me, it’s really about my passion. So for Pharmacist Moms, it’s just what I want to do. It’s kind of what I’m really passionate about: women and pharmacy and making a difference and seeing changes and bringing things to fruition. For me, it’s what I wake up early about, and I can’t wait to look at different things related to pharmacists and women and read papers about it, and I get enjoyment from it. So I’m smiling here because this is — I don’t necessarily think of it as business. I really think of it as we’re a movement, you know, of women who are going to change pharmacy for the better to really help pharmacist women and propel our careers, to just do a lot. So you know, it’s just my passion. And I think when you’re passionate about something, it changes everything.

Tim Ulbrich: So how do you, Suzi, how do you practically carve out time. It’s a question we often get, hey, I’m really interested in starting a side hustle, but with family or job, I just don’t have energy, I don’t have time. What has worked for you in terms of being able to prioritize and cut out time in your schedule to work on the Pharmacist Moms Group?

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Suzanne Soliman: There’s never going to be enough time. Ever. For me, I wake up early. So you know, I try to wake up by like 5 o’clock in the morning, before my kids are awake, so I can get some work done during the quiet times. Or I’ll stay up late and get things done when my kids are sleeping. So for me, something’s got to give, right? So for me, it’s been my sleep. So I don’t necessarily do that. I never watch TV. I mean, I rarely if ever, ever, ever watch TV. And I know that’s not great, but I just don’t watch anything on the television except I hear what my children are watching Teen Nick or they’re watching Disney Junior, and I hear that going on in the background. So I know what they’re watching. But I don’t. So for me, it’s just making the time. So if I’m picking up my kids from school, a lot of times, I’m on my phone, checking my email while I’m waiting for them to come out. Or in the morning, when I’m waiting for my drink if I’m at Dunkin Donuts, I’m checking things. I’m sure — there is time somewhere. But something’s got to give. And so during my workouts, when I work out, I listen to podcasts so I’m learning and I’m learning new information at all times. For me, that’s what works. And I just think, again, there’s never going to be enough time. And constantly, if you ask my husband, that’s literally all I ever say is, “There’s not enough time in the day,” like, “I have so much to do,” so it’s really about prioritizing what needs to get done. And I think I said this to you earlier, like I’m really bad at checking my email. So if anyone emails me, I’m so sorry. Like sometimes it takes me a week to get back. And sometimes, I never get back. And it’s just because I look at it — text me if you really need to find me, text me or Facebook Messenger me. I’m a little bit more responsive on both of those, but it’s so hard to keep up. I get so much spam email too that it’s like, I just have — if you look at my inbox, I’m embarrassed to say this, but my inbox on my iPhone, I think it has over, yeah, 228,000 unread messages. So it’s crazy.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, what I like about that — I know I mentioned this to you as well before we recorded — is that, you know, I often feel that itch with email as well, but I try to sometimes take a step back. And if you think about vision of what you’re working on, your movement, or you think about legacy, which I’m going to ask you here about in a minute, you know, at the end of the day, those are the things that you’re going to remember and that are going to have an impact, right? So certainly, email is a necessary evil at times, but it is so easy to spend a day in email and actually do nothing to move the business forward or move the movement forward. So I think that for those that are out there — and this is true with a website, you know, somebody’s trying to start a business and they’re focusing on business cards or website design or all these things, it’s easy to get sucked up into these details that may not actually help you progress and move things forward. So legacy — let me ask you about legacy. And I asked this to Blair Thielemier when I interviewed her on Episode 089 and Ashlee Klevens-Hayes on Episode 095, and it’s one of my favorite questions because I like to hear what people are thinking about in terms of legacy. And I think at the end of the day, this is really one of the things that matters when we think about why are you doing all of this to begin with. And you’ve answered this a little bit, but I’d like to hear a little bit more on this as well. So when you think about the work that you’re doing with the Pharmacist Moms Group today, obviously, what you’re doing is going to be left behind for others to build upon or for others to consume. And for your kids, ultimately, to admire and say, “Yes, that was my mom who did that.” So as you think about what you’re doing with the Pharmacist Moms Group and we fast forward 30, 40, 50 years, what do you want the legacy to be with that work?

Suzanne Soliman: For me, I think that we’ve really helped propel women in pharmacy to really show equality, I want to say, that there’s certain areas that I think that we still need to work on, whether it’s women in leadership positions within pharmacy or some areas of salary as well, especially in academic centers, females are paid still less than males. My goal is to raise my children to be good people that would make — I’d feel like that’s the most important thing on a personal level is that my children grow up and that they’re honest and kind human beings and that they care about others. That’s the ultimate legacy or I think the ultimate way to raise my children. For the group, it’s really just to support women in pharmacy to hopefully one day say that we were able to change the percentage of U.S. college of pharmacy deans, 25% right now that are women, to 50%. I think that is one of the major goals. Or independent pharmacy owners, that more of them are women, that more management, more leadership, that one day we’ll have a retail chain pharmacy CEO that is a female. I think that all of those areas are definitely important for me. They speak to me, they speak to my group, having better maternity benefits for a lot of these women that might have to go back to work right away, that they don’t have a second income to rely on, and they are the breadwinner, and they have to go back, but they’re facing issues with raising their children and working. And I think there are so many things. I think that ultimately, what I would like to create is a group of women that care about one another, that support one another, that bring each other up, you know, that we all really will support one another no matter what. I’m really big on that, on being loyal to one another and helping each other.

Tim Ulbrich: And you’re definitely doing that. So that is awesome, and I appreciate you sharing some of that. And I would encourage for those listening that are thinking about starting a side hustle, starting a movement, starting a business, whatever you want to call it, taking some time to reflect on that question of, what is the purpose of all of this? And if we fast forward 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 years, what is the legacy that you hope to leave in that journey? Because I think that as you get into the details and you get into the weeds and you’re trying to balance schedules and you’re getting up at 5 a.m. and you’re maybe sacrificing time with family at times, really keeping that front and center of the purpose of what you’re trying to do is incredible. And Suzi, one of the things that I’m excited about is we have this kind of movement and pharmacy entrepreneurship that’s going on. I think about the work that you’re doing, I think about the work that Ashlee Klevens-Hayes and Blair Thielemier, Tony Guerra, Alex Barker, I mean, the list keeps going on and on, but thinking about there are certainly as we think about the kids that all of us have, they’re observers of what’s happening. And my kids are young enough, they may not necessarily articulate it, but it’s going to be fun to see what that next generation is going to do as they certainly are going through this time of being a part of it, either indirectly or directly. Last question I have for you is on your website, you had mentioned one of your favorite quotes is “Live life as if everything is rigged in your favor.” Tell me more.

Suzanne Soliman: So that’s from Rumi. So I’m a big believer in everything that might happen, you have to find the good in it. So there have been things that have happened in my life, even decisions or choices that I have made that might not have been the best decisions or might not have been — or choices or things that have happened that have been very difficult. And I think, though, you’re faced with a choice at that point. And you can either feel bad about it — and I did, and I have felt bad — but I think really when you think about it and you think that maybe this happened for a reason, you know, whether it’s — it could be anyone about losing a job, losing a parent, losing someone close to you. It could be going through a divorce, it could be, you know, just different areas, struggling with anxiety, struggling with depression, struggling with substance abuse. It could be any area. But remembering that whatever you might struggle with — it could be struggling with finances, you know, that maybe this happened to you for in your favor. I mean, it could be moving away to a different area and losing your network of friends and contacts and having to start all over and realizing that, you know, God or the universe or whatever you want to call it, placed you in that position for a reason. And you’re in that position for a reason, and now, it’s really to challenge yourself to find out why you’re in that place and learn from it and grow from it. And I think that that’s the beauty of that quote and how I like to live my life, that no matter what happens, there’s got to be some reason why I’m going through that at that moment.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Thank you. So before we wrap up, is there a specific book or podcast or blog or something that you’re reading or listening to that you would recommend to our listeners?

Suzanne Soliman: So I always recommend this book. I’ve listened to it multiple, multiple times. It changed my life. It is called “The Universe Has Your Back” by Gabby Bernstein. I’m not sure how many people are into these kind of books, but it’s one of the most amazing books, and it helped me when I was struggling at certain points in my life. And I have listened to this book. I actually listen to books more than read them because I just don’t have the time to read anymore. So I listened to it multiple times, so I would recommend that to everyone. And I listen to “Super Soul Sunday” by Oprah all the time, so I’m a big Oprah fan. And anything with Oprah, I love listening to and I’m very inspired by and I find it very inspirational.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for coming on the show, sharing the work that you’re doing at the Pharmacist Moms Group. Truly, it has been an inspiration to watch. I continue to look for ways that we can partner and continue to see that group grow and thrive and just congratulations on the awesome work that you’ve done on achieving that mission and vision that you had. So where should our listeners go to learn more about you and the work that you’re doing with Pharmacist Moms Group?

Suzanne Soliman: Sure. They can go right to the website. They can go to www.PharmacistMomsGroup.com, and they can find out more. Or if they want to reach me, they can send an email — like I said, they can try to send an email through that page as well or find me on Facebook or on my Instagram or even Twitter, that I sometimes use as well. So.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So maybe social media instead of email, right? That’s what we learned.

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah, definitely. That’s probably better, yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Thank you again. And for our listeners, if you’ve liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please leave us a review and rate us in iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts each and every week. We’re grateful for your support of the work that we’re doing. And if you haven’t yet, check out YourFinancialPharmacist.com, we’ve got lots of free resources, guides, calculators, tools and checklists to help you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. Have a great rest of your week.

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How to be Fashionable on a Budget

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How to be Fashionable on a Budget

The following is a guest post from Dr. Jessica Louie, PharmD, APh, BCCCP, CEO of Clarify Simplify Align and Petite Style Script, Burnout Coach, and Certified KonMari Consultant.

I have nothing to wear… I thought this nearly every day as I stood at my closet door looking at a full closet of clothing. We’ve all been there, right? But, why? When we have a full closet and full dresser of clothes, why can’t we put together an outfit that sparks joy?

This was me 5 years ago. I had accumulated all of these clothes with no intention. The new trend. The new dress for each event. The new handbag everyone was talking about. The new piece of jewelry to accessorize an outfit. I was literally wasting money on clothing I didn’t love. And, I was suffering from decision fatigue – too many options (aka too many pieces of clothing) to make one outfit.

My closet was just one of many areas of my life that was becoming too cluttered. Too stressful. Too chaotic.

It was time to take back control of my life AND my wardrobe. How did I do it? And stick to a budget while purchasing quality items?

I bought less. I applied the KonMari Method to my clothing AND my life.

And you can do it, too! I’ve put together a bonus resource at the end of this post that will give you a complete wardrobe for each season or a year-round guide that you can copy!

I now have a capsule wardrobe for each season. I broke my shopaholic addiction. Are you ready to break yours?

How did I do it? The C.U.R.A.T.E. system. C.U.R.A.T.E. is the same strategy and system I apply to resetting and preventing burnout and setting goals! It’s a useful tool for so many aspects of my life. Hopefully, you’ll also find it useful!

STEP 1: Clarify

STEP 2: Unpack

STEP 3: Reduce & Simplify

STEP 4: Align

STEP 5: Take Action

STEP 6: Evaluate & Enjoy

how to look fashionable on a budget, how to be fashionable without breaking the bank, how to look fashionable on a limited budget

Step 1:

Clarify your why and purpose. Set the vision for how you would like to feel in your clothing. Would you like to feel confident? Comfortable? Professional?

Step 2:

Unpack what you have. Take out all the clothing you currently own. Yes, ALL of it! From every area of your home. Figure out what you own by separating clothing into subcategories.

Step 3:

Reduce and simplify what you have unpacked. Make it easy. How?

1. Pick up each clothing item in your hand and ask yourself 3 questions: Does this spark joy? (also known as Does it speak to my heart? or Do I love it?), Does it fit?, Do I wear it?

2. If yes, keep it with confidence.

3. If no, thank it for what it taught you and let it go with gratitude.

Step 4:

Align your why and purpose from Step 1 with your wardrobe. What is missing from your wardrobe to create the feeling you are after? Write down what pieces you would like to purchase intentionally to complete your wardrobe.

Consider creating a capsule wardrobe – a list of essential clothing items that do not go out of style and that you can wear 7 days a week. You may need a work list and a casual list depending on your work environment and uniform requirements.

Step 5:

Take action to create your capsule wardrobe. Think Quality > Quantity. Intentionally put together a plan to purchase missing items to complete your wardrobe. Take time to find items that truly spark joy, fit, are classic styles and aligned with your vision for an ideal wardrobe.

It may sound counter-intuitive to invest in quality items but purchasing a $100 pair of dress pants once over 5 years is less expensive than purchasing one $25 pair of dress pants every year over 5 years because they wore out, faded, ripped or went out of style.

Another option is to borrow or rent clothing you are unsure about before purchasing it for yourself. For example, I can rent a special occasion dress for a wedding or celebration instead of purchasing one that I’ll wear once or twice. I have also borrowed handbags before deciding if I’ll purchase one myself based on usability, shoulder strain and durability.

I also shop secondhand for high-quality clothing that are new with tags or nearly new from stores like ThredUP by investing in quality items at a lower price point.

Stores I Recommend:

  • ThredUP, TheRealReal or MaterialWorld for high-quality secondhand
  • Banana Republic for men or women
  • Nordstrom for men or women
  • Express for men
  • FIGS scrubs for scrubs and athleisure wear for men or women
  • Costco for men or women

Step 6:

Enjoy and evaluate your outfits! How are you feeling in your clothing?

When you are eyeing an expensive clothing piece, take time to pause, don’t purchase it for at least 7 days, then come back and re-evaluate if this item will add value to your life and your wardrobe.

Too many times I was caught up in purchasing because it was on sale. A sale still costs money. So, take time to pause. Go back to your Alignment stage and check if you were already looking for this item. If you wouldn’t purchase it at full price, you shouldn’t purchase it on sale.

Shop intentionally my friends! Simplify your wardrobe. Lead with confidence. Curate a life you love!

Need more help? Here is a FREE guide!

Download a Seasonal Capsule Wardrobe for your 5-weeks of outfit ideas and step-by-step guide today.

To get this FREE bonus resource, visit Petite Style Script Style Help.

Dr. Jessica Louie, PharmD, APh, BCCCP is CEO of Clarify Simplify Align and Petite Style Script, Burnout Coach, and Certified KonMari Consultant who helps women gain clarity of their purpose, simplify and declutter their home, wardrobes and minds, and align their work into their lives with simple processes to avoid overwhelm, lead with confidence and curate lives they love. Jessica offers Declutter Coaching and Burnout Coaching in-person or virtually to transform people’s lives.

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YFP 101: How to Get Started with Podcasting

Posted on by yfpadmin

How to Get Started with Podcasting

Dr. Hillary Blackburn joins Tim Church on this week’s episode to talk about her unique pharmacy career at Dispensary of Hope, her side hustles, and how she started the Talk to Your Pharmacist Podcast.

Summary

Dr. Hillary Blackburn is a clinical pharmacist, Director of Pharmaceutical Services at Dispensary of Hope, creator and host of the Talk to Your Pharmacist podcast and the Founder and CEO of the Natural Products Resource Center (NPRC). She joins the YFP podcast to speak about her unique pharmacy career and side hustles.

Hillary grew up in Mississippi and graduated from the University of Mississippi. She always thought she would end up in medical school, but after being on clinical rotations she saw how broad of a career pharmacists can have.

Hillary has worked in several capacities as a pharmacist but loves the role she holds as the Director of Pharmaceutical Services at Dispensary of Hope. Dispensary of Hope is a charitable medication distributor that distributes medication to uninsured people in 31 states and over 160 pharmacies and clinics. Her day-to-day schedule at work varies, but you can find her attending meetings, answering emails, planning, and presenting on current pharmacy trends often. She explains that her job is a blend of managed care, management, public health and mission.

After being in Nashville for a year and meeting her husband, who is also very entrepreneurial, Hillary got that entrepreneurial itch, too. She loves to listen to and read content about pharmacy and pharmacy trends and decided to start the Talk to Your Pharmacist Podcast in Spring 2017. She sought guidance in her network and worked with two people in Nashville to learn how to start a podcast. Now, Hillary does everything from start to finish, including identifying a guest, researching the guest and topic, scheduling, recording, and editing. She has since been able to monetize the podcast through sponsorships from companies that have organically found her. She was first approached for sponsorship after releasing 40 episodes in Talk to Your Pharmacist Podcast’s first year. Hillary only supports and suggests brands that she’s tried and believes in.

Hillary is also the founder and CEO of the Natural Products Resource Center (NPRC). Additionally, she also has created Residency Bootcamp evergreen webinars which provide on-demand training to coach people through the residency process. Hillary also moonlights for a retail pharmacy chain. Her extra money is going to a lot of saving, travel, and planning for a family.

Hillary really enjoys her job at Dispensary of Hope and doesn’t find it to be stressful. She’s able to find time to balance her side hustles with her life by prioritizing her health and being driven by passion.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Church: Hillary, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show and for being part of this side hustle edition.

Hillary Blackburn: Awesome, thanks, Tim. It’s an honor to be a guest.

Tim Church: Yeah, we’re reciprocating, right? Since you gave me the opportunity last year. That was really cool to be a part of your show.

Hillary Blackburn: Absolutely. Yeah, I love getting to share with other pharmacy leaders and even getting to meet them in person. Tim Ulbrich was just down in Nashville a few weeks ago and had the pleasure of getting to connect with him as well. So always fun to do some collaborations.

Tim Church: Yeah, when we met last year in Nashville at the APhA annual meeting, it was pretty easy to tell that you’re somebody who’s not only passionate about our profession but also entrepreneurship. So it’s always fun to get a chance to talk with you.

Hillary Blackburn: Yeah, yes. It’s fun to be with other like-minded pharmacists for sure.

Tim Church: So can you talk a little bit about your career path as a pharmacist?

Hillary Blackburn: Sure. So I’m Hillary Blackburn, currently director of pharmaceutical services at Dispensary of Hope, the creator and host of the Talk to Your Pharmacist podcast and the founder and CEO of the Natural Products Resource Center. So clinically trained and have been practicing for the past eight years in a variety of settings. So my career has taken a few, you know, unexpected paths but ultimately, have led me to where I am today. So you know, after attending pharmacy school at the University of Mississippi, I definitely selected rotations to get a very broad experience in clinical rotations but even served as an intern during two summers with the Health Resources and Services Administration’s Office of Pharmacy Affairs in Washington, D.C. Even attended APhA Summer Leadership Institute during one of those summers, which was an excellent experience if any students get the chance to go. And some of you may know that HRSA, or the Office of Pharmacy Affairs oversees the 340b program, which is a program to support the hospitals and clinics across the country who are serving the safety net population. And this was a really unique opportunity because I was able to explore more of that public health standpoint and how to operationalize a national program. And growing up in the Mississippi delta, I was very familiar with some of the lower income population and just had a passion to give back and serve in that way. So after graduating from pharmacy school, I completed my PGY1 residency at the University of Mississippi Medical Center and continued on with that clinical care of being in the ER and ICU, rounding with the internal medicine teams, even having experiences in the ambulatory setting. And you know, after residency, I moved to Nashville and thought I was going to continue on in that path with hospital and really clinical pharmacy but realized that I wanted to change that a little bit and actually worked in the independent pharmacy setting for a family friend and then spent some time working for a health plan, learned all about the prior authorization process, you know, refined my formulary management development skills, and then worked at a specialty mail-order pharmacy. So all of those different experiences really have kind of culminated into where I am now, which is full-time at the Dispensary of Hope, which is a charitable medication distributor, for those of you who aren’t familiar. So since 2012, Dispensary of Hope, which is based in Nashville, has assembled a collaborative of most of the largest drug manufacturers in the pharmaceutical space and most of the largest health systems that are serving the uninsured. And so what we do is we partner with these pharmaceutical companies who donate medicine to us as a wholesale distributor, and then we distribute it to clinics, FUHCs, charitable pharmacies and hospital outpatient pharmacies across the country, serving over 160 pharmacies and clinics in about 31 states now.

Tim Church: Wow.

Hillary Blackburn: So it’s really grown a lot, and this was a role that didn’t exist before I started in this position. And so I’ve been able to really create this as my own, you know, unique role and have really expanded those responsibilities. So not only am I still maintaining our formulary, which I started doing as a volunteer when I had some of my other roles, but now I’m consulting with pharmacy leaders across the country, sharing expertise on affordable medication access, helping with any strategy development for implementing programs to address gaps in pharmaceutical care, lead our research and create tools for successful program implementation and help maintain partnerships with some of our external partners such as colleges of pharmacy. So it definitely keeps me busy, but I still have some time and some passions for some other projects.

Tim Church: So what’s your day-to-day look like at the Dispensary of Hope?

Hillary Blackburn: Yeah, well, it varies, which I thoroughly enjoy. So because we’re also a distributor, we do not see patients, which I do miss that aspect of pharmacy practice. There’s definitely a value of being able to see that direct impact on a patient’s life that you’re helping and improving. But day-to-day, it varies anywhere from, you know, attending meetings with the rest of our team. We do not have any other pharmacists on staff. I do have pharmacy students that are on rotation with me. So we’re really bringing that clinical expertise to the organization. And so you know, sometimes I’ll be doing a lot of emails and having to maintain that professional persona and thinking about strategic things like that, planning presentations. I’ll be going over to South Carolina to talk with the South Carolina SHP or ASHP division, talking about healthcare is getting disrupted, is pharmacy ready? So excited to be traveling and giving some presentations about current pharmacy trends, which is a lot of what I do with my podcast, Talk to Your Pharmacist. So it definitely varies, but I usually have a pretty full plate, which keeps me busy. And I enjoy having students to share that kind of mixture of a little bit of managed care management, public health and mission.

Tim Church: That is just really interesting just because obviously, it’s not the most traditional type of pharmacy position. But what I find very fascinating is just the role that you’re playing and how far the reach is. You mentioned 31 states, multiple facilities that you’re helping facilitate the distribution. I just think that’s amazing.

Hillary Blackburn: It is. And you know, being able to visit the pharmacists and pharmacy technicians that are actually doing the work and taking care of patients is probably my favorite part of my role is when I get the opportunity to go out in the field and learn from them too because then I’m able to bring it back and put together resources and share those best practices across our network of pharmacies and clinics.

Tim Church: That’s really cool. Well Hillary, in our profession, there is a lot of negativity with pharmacists’ job satisfaction, just the role in general. What do you like about being a pharmacist and about your job in general?

Hillary Blackburn: That’s a great question. And you know, I’ll tell you what. When I was planning to go to college, I thought I was going into med school. You know, my parents actually encouraged me to apply to Ole Miss’ early entry pharmacy program. And you know, all along, I kind of thought that I was still going to go to med school. But it wasn’t really until my fourth year of pharmacy, getting to do all of the awesome rotations and see the great diversity that pharmacists have opportunities for, and I mean, it’s just blown up even since I was in school. But that was really the exciting — where my passion just really kind of took off about all of the different opportunities: pharmacists being in the pharmaceutical industry or playing integral roles all throughout the hospital setting and then, you know, now we’re really seeing pharmacists heavily embedded in physician practices and finally being recognized with some provider status designations in certain states. So I think we’re going to start to see that happen in different states, you know, as we’re moving from fee-for-service to value-based care, it’s going to be so important for pharmacists to demonstrate the value that we bring to the healthcare team. So I think that’s something that we all need to keep in mind.
Tim Church: Yeah, I definitely agree. So you’re doing amazing things at the Dispensary of Hope and reaching a lot of people. But at what point did you say, ‘You know what, I have this entrepreneurial itch, and I really want to start a business or just do something in addition to my full-time job?’

Hillary Blackburn: Yeah. You know, I have always been a multi — or I guess just very disciplined about time management. Growing up, I played just about every sport. Being from a small town was great in that I had a lot of opportunities, so I’ve always been really regimented with my schedule. And so staying busy is something that I enjoy. And so after pharmacy school and then residency and then being in Nashville, after I’d been in Nashville for about a year or two, and then met my husband, who’s very entrepreneurial, Nashville is just such a great place for entrepreneurism and innovation in healthcare. And you know, starting this podcast was something that, you know, I had been listening to podcasts about entrepreneurship, I loved “Entrepreneur on Fire,” “How I Built This,” “TED Talks,” there’s “Masters of Scale” is one by Reed Hoffman, the founder of LinkedIn. I had been listening to all of these and thought, wow, I’d love to be able to consume content about pharmacy and all of the different trends and things going on there, so much is happening, and it’s hard to keep up with everything. And so that’s really in the spring of 2017 was kind of when I had this vision, and I’m such a doer, you know, once I get something in my head, I’m like, OK, I’ve got to do it. And so you know, it was created really for pharmacists and student pharmacists and others who want to hear from industry leaders about their leadership stories and perspectives on healthcare topics. And it’s just been kind of a fun passion that has turned into, you know, a revenue source. So it’s always great whenever you can fund your passions. So it’s been a really fun journey.

Tim Church: Definitely. So what are the ways you’re monetizing it right now?

Hillary Blackburn: Yeah, so you know, I really had no expectations on the podcast. I thought, you know, I’m just going to start doing it, and see where it goes. You know, of course some goals would have been like, oh, I’d love to get a sponsor or do affiliate marketing or maybe doing a podcast will lead me to get some paid speaking or consulting engagements, which is really I put it all under the umbrella of the Pharmacy Advisory Group, so I could do advising for companies and things like that. But actually, the way that I’ve monetizing it is some of these companies have just organically come to me. So you know, I’ve just stuck with it, with I think I’ve produced — let’s see — over 40 episodes in the first year. So I was almost releasing one a week, which I have been doing that now because I have a sponsorship commitment. But after doing it almost a year, I was approached by Theraworks Relief, which is an over-the-counter muscle cramp reliever, you know, and have been working with them for since August of 2018. And I don’t support any — or I’m not going to sponsor any products that I don’t fully support and believe in. And so after learning about the company, getting a sample of it, you know, I mean, I went through all of that. And I can honestly say that I use it and have got family members who use it. So for me, I don’t necessarily get a lot of cramps as typically, you might when you get older, have some electrolyte things, Restless Leg, things like that. But from like workouts and things, I guess I tend to use it for that. But I’ve got family members using it. And then secondly, another company, Rx Destroyer, is the newest sponsor that we are partnering with. And it’s a really neat company as well. And they’re a chemical drug destruction solution. So basically, it inactivates medications using activated charcoal. They’ve got, you know, a unique mechanism there. But it’s a drug disposal solution for individuals, you know, we’ve got kind of the opioid crisis right now and people don’t want to have all of these unwanted meds at home. So they can get that product at Walgreens or for businesses. So long-term care facilities, the other facilities who have to be responsible for destruction of medications. They can use this Rx Destroyer, and it helps protect our water supply, they’re compliant, so it’s been really fun that those two companies have been able to essentially seek me out and have been — I’ve really enjoyed being able to work with them and, you know, share about their great products with the pharmacy community.

Tim Church: Yeah. And I think that’s really cool, like when you fully believe in products or services, it’s pretty easy to promote those. And that’s similar to what we do on this podcast as well. But making sure that you vet those companies and services that basically, you’re going to trust them yourselves or with your family members, promoting them or encouraging them to use those. So I think that’s one thing that’s really key because unfortunately, there can be a dark side. I know a number of podcasts or just webistes, and they’ll basically promote anything, you know, just based on the traffic that it gets, so I think that’s a really cool process in the way that you took that approach.
Hillary Blackburn: Yeah, I definitely don’t want to promote anything that I don’t fully believe in, so.

Tim Church: So talk about some of the struggles, the challenges, just getting a podcast up and running because — now, I can’t take credit because the other Tims were the ones that really got this one going from the ground floor — but obviously, there’s a lot involved. So talk a little bit about the beginning stages, what was tough for you? What were some of the challenges?

Hillary Blackburn: Oh, there was a lot of tough things because it’s just like anything when you haven’t done it before, you’re like, well, how do I take the next step? So I was really lucky in getting to connect with two other guys here in Nashville who were really generous about sharing their stories. Matt Bodnar has a really successful podcast called “The Science of Success,” and he’s basically outsourced his entire production, which is certainly something that I would love to do. He can basically come in, read the guest bio and everything’s pretty much done. He’s just the personality and can kind of handle all that. Now, someone else was sharing a little bit about, you know, Zincaster. Tim, you and I, we both are using that as our program to be able to do the recordings. But there are plenty of other recordings, and so this friend, David Schiffrin (?), who works with Health Further, which is a health, I guess, they were solely doing conferences, but they’re doing a little bit of a transition, but all about the future of health and bringing different stakeholders together. He shared how he was doing their podcast, and you know, actually showed me Zincast. Seeing it, I’m very visual, getting to see how it worked, how you do the recording, it’s saved in DropBox, you’ve got to find a host for that, a host site to host your podcast. And so right now, I’m still doing start-to-finish everything from identifying the guests, which for me, that’s the easiest part is I feel like I’ve got a great network of people. I’ve been really fortunate to — I’m pretty extroverted, I guess you could say, for a pharmacist. And I enjoy meeting people and staying up-to-date on news, so that’s the fun part is getting to talk to and identify guests. But you know, you’ve got to do the scheduling and then —

Tim Church: And the editing.

Hillary Blackburn: And the editing and the recording. I use GarageBand for my editing. And so none of these things were things that I knew beforehand. Luckily for me, I thought, yeah, my husband’s really techy, I’ll just go to him to do it. He said, “No, no, no. This is your project. You need to learn.” So there is a true value in YouTube videos. So you know, a lot of YouTube videos, learning how to do some of the editing, you know, you just have to stick with it. And the first episode that you do or the first thing that you do in your — maybe you’re going to do video, whatever you do — it’s not going to be perfect. And I know a lot times, pharmacists are perfectionists. But you just have to get Version 1 out there. So once you get Version 1 out there, then you can kind of start refining and get in the groove. And once you’ve done one, so you know, the whole like “see one, do one, teach one,” once you’ve done it, then you are kind of on your way.

Tim Church: Wow. It’s impressive that you’re doing it all, and we’ve had some help recently after I think Episode 050 just because it is very time-consuming. That’s what I was going to ask you is what’s a typical amount of time for you to take an episode from completely fresh start all the way to finished product?

Hillary Blackburn: Well, I would say in total, the time to connect with the guest, prep, get my questions, do the interview, do the editing – I do have a template that I have for editing, so that helps – and then uploading it and revising on SoundCloud, I would say is probably about 2 hours. I’ve kind of got it nailed down now.

Tim Church: Yeah, it sounds like it. Because I remember I think one episode, I had to edit. And it took me I think at least 2 hours to just do the editing because the tracks were off between the guest and the host or something like that. And I just like, I thought to myself, like this is terrible because I just didn’t know the best ways, how to be efficient on that. But I think like you said, you can definitely cut down the time on a lot of the tasks. But even just getting it up to iTunes, up to that point, just the tasks of actually putting it live, there’s a lot of things involved. And then there’s a whole other animal of actually promoting it. One of the things that you do is really cool is you – I don’t know if you’re using the same tool as we are, we use I think it’s WayForm or Wave or something like that? But how you’re showing the different clips or the audio clips with guests, it’s a really cool way that you’re putting out your podcast when you release those.

Hillary Blackburn: Yes, and that’s something that I learned from someone else. So another pharmacist, Meghan Nicole (?) who’s with the Lazy Millennial, I saw her do it and interviewed her as a guest and I’m like, ‘Meghan, how do you that?’ And so as long as we’re sharing information, you know, just helping others out. So I think that’s really important.

Tim Church: Well, I think you’ve done a great job, and I’ve listened to a number of the episodes, and it’s really cool the variety of guests that you bring on, the topics that you discuss and obviously, it’s doing well and it’s successful because I think you’re up to – what? Episode 074? 075 right now?

Hillary Blackburn: Yes. Yeah.

Tim Church: Yeah. That’s incredible. I mean, I’ve heard stats that so many podcasts, they stop producing after just a small number of episodes. So I think that’s cool that you’ve kept it up and persevered because I know there’s some weeks, depending on how involved you are, where it can be tough to manage everything else you have going on and make it be successful.

Hillary Blackburn: Totally. But you know, batching some of the work, as we were talking about earlier, is helpful. And you know, sometimes at a point, you do have to do some outsourcing like getting an intern to help or a student pharmacist helping me grow my Instagram business, that was definitely with a little bit of help from one of the pharmacy students here in Nashville, she’s been awesome, Christy Fritch (?), she’s over at Belmont. And I think she’s now doing APhA’s student Instagram account, so she’s one of the people behind that now. So she’s been awesome. So yeah, you’ve just got to be able to kind of know what you can do and when you need to bring in other people and make it most effective in that way.

Tim Church: So besides the podcast, I know you’re doing a couple other things for side income. Can you talk a little about those?

Hillary Blackburn: I’ve also done a couple of things, I have a passion for students and love doing precepting but realized that residencies are becoming so competitive, so I hosted two webinars before the residency interview process really got started and charged a little bit for that. But, you know, a reasonable amount for a student. But then put all of that content together into an on-demand, online course on – and that’s available at ResidencyBootcamp.teachable.com. And so that’ll be available next year and the next year. So it’s really evergreen content and at an affordable price. So next year, when students are ready to look at interviews and things, but it’s really applicable for any interview process too. So you know, a lot of those things are transferable. The final thing that I do, and it’s helpful to stay in touch with what’s happening in the retail setting is I’ll still do some moonlighting for a retail pharmacy chain. And it helps to keep me up-to-date on what’s happening in that space. But it’s always helpful to have a little extra fun money for shopping or different things.

Tim Church: Is that where most of the additional income is coming – is that where it’s going?

Hillary Blackburn: Well, so we actually are really fortunate because we do a lot of saving. So we live off of my income solely. So you know, a lot of times, people are living on two incomes and then you add another person, and then you take away an income, and then you’re like, whoa, we’re used to this extravagant lifestyle. So you know, we’ve been really diligent about trying to live off of one income since we’ve been married. But we still love to travel. I mean, we’ve taken amazing trips to Greece, Cuba, we went to Thailand for our honeymoon. We’re always doing some kind of adventure trip, whether it’s even to family vacations to Whistler, Breckenridge, but we enjoy to travel. And you know, doing fun things around Nashville. But we also have a good balance, so having that budget of getting used to living on one income has been really helpful as we’re getting ready for the next phase of life and planning for family and all that kind of thing.

Tim Church: So how do you manage all of these things that you’re doing with your full-time job and personal life? Because I hear from a lot of pharmacists who say, you know, “I’m just trying to make it at my full-time job and keep sanity at home,” with their significant other or their family. What seems to work best for you?

Hillary Blackburn: Well, I really enjoy my job. And so I don’t have a lot of stress from that. But when I am home, you know, I really try to make sure that that part of my life is healthy too. So getting 8 hours of sleep, drinking – you’re supposed to drink your body weight divided by two, like that many ounces – so like drinking enough water, exercising. I’m a big fitness person and love to do triathlons and things in the summer. You know, we don’t watch a lot of TV. So I don’t come home and turn on the TV. Oftentimes, I’m not even turning that on. I’m working on – I’ll make dinner, make sure I’ve had a workout in and have some quality time with my husband and you know, maybe I’m preparing for Bible study or something. But sometimes, it just depends. You have different seasons of life, and sometimes I do feel really busy, like last year, there were definitely seasons – you know, 2018 was a pretty big year for our family, but I think that you’ve got to be able to prioritize and make sure you’re taking care of yourself.

Tim Church: I definitely agree. And I think you hit it there where there’s seasons where you’re going to be really shifted in one direction. And I kind of believe in that mentality. There was a book called “The One Thing” by Gary Keller and Jay Papasan. And they kind of demystified and debunked the myth of work-life balance in that if you try to be balanced in everything, what ends up happening is you basically just become mediocre at all of those things. And sometimes, to really achieve the next level of success that you’re going to be shifting in that direction temporarily. And then obviously, you have to come back in order to maintain relationships and other aspects of your life. But it sounds like that’s sort of the way that, the rhythm for the way things have gone for you.

Hillary Blackburn: I would say so, yeah.

Tim Church: So what advice, Hillary, would you give to other pharmacists and even students out there who have an interest in becoming an entrepreneur?

Hillary Blackburn: You know, I would say stick with it. So you’re maybe not going to find the ultimate success within the first week or six months or a year. It’s going to take awhile, so stick with it and keep working hard, put in that work ethic. Stay hungry. So you know, I think that that term is kind of often used at the Entrepreneur Center in Nashville. You want to stay hungry and keep looking for things. I think if you follow some of the great entrepreneurs who are out there doing some awesome things like Tony Robbins and Gary Vaynerchuk and some of the other ones who you’ve got to follow people that you want to be like. So if there are pharmacy leaders that, you know, maybe you want to own your own business. Well, look at who in pharmacy is doing that. You guys have interviewed a lot of entrepreneurs. Start following some of those guests. What do they do? But ultimately, I think that as long as you’re providing value, that’s key. I think something that I’ve really focused on a lot over the past two years is not only personal and professional development, so reading books, so that lifelong learning is just so important.

Tim Church: Yeah, I was going to ask you, which ones would you recommend that have had a big impact on your life?

Hillary Blackburn: Well, I think one of the biggest ones was “Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,” and the sad thing is that I got this book as a resident and felt like I didn’t have time to read it. And then now in my current role at Dispensary of Hope, we read it – or I read that and then as an organization, we read it. And that was just kind of had so many Aha! Moments. But I now use Audible, which helps to consume more of that content, kind of like what I enjoy with the podcasts, being able to listen to it when you’re in the car, traveling, being efficient. Maybe you’re at a workout, trying to get your workout in and read a book. Some of the other great ones that I’ve read about kind of business or entrepreneurship have been “Good to Great,” “EntreLeadership” by Dave Ramsey, “Outliers: The Story of Success” by Malcolm Gladwell. And then right now, I just finished “Crush It” by Gary Vaynerchuk. And so you know, there’s probably so many more – actually Tim Ulbrich recommended reading when I connected with him the one on – oh! “Never Split the Difference.” So that’s kind of been –

Tim Church: Oh yeah, about negotiation.

Hillary Blackburn: Yes. Yeah. And you know, these are just some of these are like life skills. And so how do you handle conflict resolution? And even like learning more about change management. I think John Cotter is the one that has a couple books out on that. You’ve got to be able to lead, and so any type of books on leadership, I think those are all going to be really helpful.

Tim Church: Well Hillary, it’s been a pleasure having you on the show. And really appreciate you sharing your story and all the things that you’re up to. What is the best way for someone to reach out or learn more about what you do?

Hillary Blackburn: Absolutely, I love getting to connect with other people. So first, the website is www.pharmacyadvisory.com, and there are show notes for any of the podcast episodes there and a sign-up for our email list. So when we do newsletters and things, you can find us there. I have a Facebook page and Instagram account as Talk to Your Pharmacist. And you can find me on Twitter and LinkedIn as Hillary Blackburn.

Tim Church: Great. Thank you so much, Hillary.

Hillary Blackburn: Awesome. Thanks, Tim! It was so fun to get to talk with you. Thanks for having me as a guest.

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Celebrating 100 Episodes of the YFP Podcast!

Posted on by yfpadmin

Celebrating 100 Episodes of the YFP Podcast!

Tim, Tim and Tim celebrate 100 episodes of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast by reminiscing about their favorites, talking about the future of the podcast, and hearing updates from several guests and pharmacy entrepreneurs that were previous guests on the podcast.

Summary

YFP celebrates 100 episodes! Tim, Tim and Tim talk about their podcast journey so far, what’s to come in the next 100 episodes, and hear updates from guests and other pharmacy entrepreneurs.

The Tims agree that it has been incredible to witness the growth of the YFP community and extend their gratitude to all of the listeners. They find it inspiring to see how people are impacted and empowered by the content on the YFP podcast.

After discussing their favorite episodes, several previous guests come back on the show to share updates on their financial journey and they way the YFP podcast has impacted their lives. We hear from Nick Ornella, Jill and Sylvain Paslier, Derek Schwartz, Blake Johnson, Alex Barker, Blair Thielemier, Adam Martin, Ashlee Klevens Hayes, and Nate Hedrick.

The conversation shifts to why the YFP team continues to publish podcast episodes and what the next 100 episodes will consist of. Tim Baker shares that they are just scratching the surface and have so much more content and stories to uncover. Tim Church says that what motivates him to continue is when he hears stories of the transformation of people from the YFP brand. Tim Ulbrich is excited to continue moving the issue of personal finance and how it affects so many aspects of one’s life. Although the team at YFP are working hard to share the impact of personal finance, the collective community of pharmacists that have formed are where the big changes and movement will be seen.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode, Episode 100 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Excited to be here in-person with Tim Church and Tim Baker. I don’t think there’s any other way we could have done this than being in person in Episode 100. We’re going to have fun with this episode. We’re going to reminisce a little bit on the journey, we’re going to talk a little bit about what the community means to us. We’re going to talk through some of our favorite episodes, and then we’ve got some special guests coming back on to the podcast, giving us an update and talk about what Your Financial Pharmacist has meant to them in their own journey as well. And then we’re going to finish off this episode talking about what do we see as the future of Your Financial Pharmacist? And what are the hopes and dreams that we have going forward? Now, before we get in and get a little bit sentimental on, you know, what this journey has meant for us, I want to first express I think as I was reflecting over the last few weeks, awaiting Episode 100, I was trying to think of what is one word or one feeling that comes to mind when I think about Episode 100. For me, it was a feeling of gratitude, of gratitude to the Your Financial Pharmacist community that really, without this community and without the support of empowering and helping one another and being so encouraging to one another, none of this is possible. And I think as we think back to starting this journey of the podcast back in summer 2017, it was all about creating a platform that inspired and empowered people to take on the steps that they needed to take towards their journey of financial freedom, whatever that might look like in their own financial plan. And to see some of that beginning to happen, to see the community empowered and helping one another is an incredibly powerful feeling and I think one that is more rewarding for us than certainly anything else. So Tim and Tim, as you kind of think on this journey, here we are at Episode 100, what are some of the feelings that come to mind, Tim Baker? It’s been a fun ride.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s really been unbelievable to me. And I think the podcast has really been a great conduit to really push forward I think our vision of what YFP, what we want YFP to be and I think what YFP is really doing for a community of like-minded pharmacists. And you know, I think when we met via Twitter and we were kind of looking at those messages back and forth — maybe we’ll post those on the show notes, you know just kind of the screenshots, which are fairly funny.

Tim Ulbrich: For someday when everybody’s like, what is Twitter?

Tim Baker: What is Twitter, yeah. You know, I guess I never would have thought that like this would have been a thing. So I think that I can’t really express the feeling that I get when we get feedback, either about the podcast or just us speaking, going around and speaking with different pharmacy schools and communities. And it’s just – I said it, it just jacks me up. It gets me fired up, you know, because other people are getting fired up about a topic that can be fairly dry and boring. But I think that that’s what this thing, YFP, is really – and it’s like when we started the podcast, it was me and you. And we’re like, what’s a podcast?

Tim Ulbrich: And will anybody listen?

Tim Baker: And will anybody listen? And I think the answer to that is yes. And you know, it’s kind of figuring that out and like now, it’s kind of taken on a thing of its own. And we’ve had so many great contributions and so many great stories and voices. Like, I’m a fan of the show. And lots of times these days, I’m not part of the show. But I listen and I get inspired by the community. And you know, that’s kind of been in the – it’s kind of poured over to this Facebook group and some of these other avenues that we see interaction and engagement. So if we would have – we’re at Episode 100, so we started the podcast two years ago, essentially, like I never would have thought it would have been this. I thought, you know, I thought we would have a few episodes. I think the average podcast is like eight episodes long or something like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Seven or eight is what I’ve heard.

Tim Baker: And we’re at 100. And I think it’s a credit to you, Tim Ulbrich and really Church, I think being all three of us kind of putting out great content, in my opinion, and seeing that engagement level rise and that needle move is what we talk about.

Tim Church: Yeah, first off, kudos to you guys because I had nothing to do with the podcast in the very beginning. And just taking it from idea and vision and actually making it happen, I mean, I think it’s unbelievable. I mean, when you look back, even the quality and the organization that you guys had to make this happen has been unbelievable. And to watch that grow over time has been really cool. And the opportunity to jump in on some episodes and then now kind of getting to interview some of the guests on the side hustle edition, it’s been really fun to be a part of that. But one of the things that really fires me up too is just seeing how this has been able to get the word out that this topic of personal finance is so important. But it’s not just about, you know, getting your finances in order and growing your net worth but just that feeling of relief, peace, the passion, and of being on that journey and feeling like you can do anything beyond just getting your finances in order. So I think it’s really cool to see that. And I think the pod has just been a great way to get the message out, to get people involved, and it’s resulted in a lot of great relationships over these two years, you know, with pharmacists in the community, with even non-pharmacists, with schools of pharmacies, organizations. So I think it’s just been a fun ride.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think that empowerment piece is so important. I mean, I’m thinking back to Tim Baker, when were at APhA in Seattle just a couple months ago, and people coming up to the booth and talking about the podcast. And you know, I think while it’s fun that people recognize the podcast, you know, that’s rewarding for a lot of the work. What gets me more excited is when somebody says with such enthusiasm, “Hey, I listened to this episode and now, my spouse and I or I did this or one step closer,” and they start to light up with energy that they feel like their finally in control of their financial plan. And it may be a baby step, it may be multiple steps, but that sense of empowerment as I think about the vision of where we were a few years ago, that’s what it’s all about. And it’s not about us, it’s about people feeling like that they are in a sense, in control of their finances and that peace of mind that comes with it. And I think that as I reflect, you know, Tim Church, when you talk about kind of not being involved as much in the podcast on the front end, like the work you’ve done with the side hustle series and as we really look back at the journey of 100 episodes, the front 50 really being focused on a lot more content and topics and we’ve shifted and done a little bit more on featuring more stories and side hustles and entrepreneurial types of journeys, we’re going to do a little bit of both going forward, but I think the evolution of the show over time has been a lot of fun. So let’s on that note, talk about favorite episodes because I think it’s fun to reflect back. And I think I have about 95 out of 100 of them memorized in terms of which episode. But I don’t think we could mapped out all the content that we’ve done. It’s been fun as we’ve had people reach out and say, “Hey, I’ve got a cool story.” And it kind of takes on a life of its own over time. So Tim Church, favorite episode? And maybe a runner-up.

Tim Church: So this is very tough. There’s a ton of them. And none of the ones that were my favorite are with me in them. So I’ll throw that out there. But Episode 057, the Power of Automating your Financial Plan, which is one that you did solo, Tim Ulbrich, which was awesome because I did one episode solo, and it’s really hard.

Tim Baker: It’s hard. It’s really hard.

Tim Church: It’s really hard to talk, but you did such a good job. And when I think about that topic, I think it’s so important to not only make it as a convenience factor, but really, that’s one of the most powerful ways to grow your net worth over time and getting that in play. And I think there’s a lot of cool technology out there that you can make it happen. But that, to me, was really powerful. And then my runner-up was Episode 073, How to Determine the Priority of Investing, which –

Tim Ulbrich: The buckets.

Tim Church: Yeah, which I nicknamed “Baker’s Buckets” because we talk about kind of the order in which you put in your tax-favored retirement plan. So that was a cool episode too.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Tim Baker, what about you? Favorite and a runner-up.

Tim Baker: Yeah. I think my favorite, the one that sticks out to me, I really liked the episode with Adam and Brittany Patterson.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, so good.

Tim Baker: Where, you know, I think Adam was the first episode in Episode 031 where he was just walking us through the journey of paying off $211,000 in 26 months. It’s unbelievable to me that to be able to achieve something like that in that short a time frame is just something that, you know, causes me to really pause and really think about that feat. And it’s impressive to me. And I think we had both of them back on Episode 059 to kind of talk through life after debt and really, the world’s their oyster. And obviously, I know Adam and Brittany. They’re actually clients of YFP Planning. And they’re just fantastic people and great to just learn more about what drives them and really help them to kind of take their journey to the next level. So I think those would be my 1A and 1B. I think my runner-up to that one, I really liked the episodes that Alex Barker, I think we had him on a couple times.

Tim Ulbrich: Three, right, now?

Tim Church: He holds the record.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: He’s one of those individuals that, like I think when he talks, I listen. I think he has a very conversational way to kind of get his point across and his story, and to be honest — I think I’ve told him this in the past is that when I was, you know, thinking about launching Script Financial, now YFP Planning, I needed an education. I needed to really understand more about the clients for which I was to serve, and at the time, I didn’t have a lot of pharmacy clients. But I really wanted to plug into that world and see what makes pharmacists tick, what are they really looking for? And in Alex’s podcast was actually one of the ones that I reviewed and listened to. And I really like it. And the fact that we had him on our podcast so many times, and he’s a big supporter of our brand and we of his, you know, I think what he’s trying to do with Happy PharmD is just commendable. And I think I really enjoy having him on the podcast.

Tim Ulbrich: Great recommendation — sneaking in three, by the way, with the 1A, 1B. We’re going to let it slide.

Tim Baker: Yeah, you know, I’ve got to have some more.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, I would add — certainly I agree with everything you said about Alex. I think he’s a thought leader, I think he stimulates great conversation, great discussion, which we need in our profession. You know, the Pattersons, what’s so cool when I think about the journey that they’ve had, they are now out there doing education.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, they were at their state association right now in Alabama. So I think back to the compounding empowerment, like they had such a transformation. Now they’re sharing that journey to help others along that way. And that is awesome. I mean, that fires me up.

Tim Baker: It’s inspiring, yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s the exponential factor in terms of allowing the message to get out there and really having a true impact and change. You know, for me, I think that — this was really, really hard. I think about a lot of these episodes, and one of the things I’ve never talked about on the show before is I think selfishly, by doing so many of these interviews, being able to talk to these people is just an amazing benefit. It’s so inspiring and there’s stories that stay with me. They make me better as a person, as a father, as a business owner. And as I had to really think about which one of these, what rises to the top for me is Episode 060 with my colleague at the Ohio State University is Breanne Porter. And she talks so much about her lessons learned through accruing $224,000 of student loan debt. But I think why that episode stands out to me is her transparency and her honesty of what she didn’t know and what she now knows and how she feels throughout that journey. And I think that while we have featured so many debt-free stories along the way, what I really like about that is she’s not yet to the point of being debt-free. And she’s in the grind, she’s in the weeds, she’s working through it. And I think that’s going to resonate and will resonate with so many people as well. The other one that stands out to me, which I’m excited we’re going to have her back on the show in Episode 109 is we had Carrie Carlton on Episode 009. And she talked about her journey beginning to build a real estate empire. And spoiler alert: That empire has expanded. But real estate’s a passion of mine going forward and I think will be a great asset for many pharmacists to consider. And that opened up for me just a whole new area to think about of how she’s really leveraging her skill set in a very different way from pharmacy but is diversifying her income and building up assets in other ways. So those are our favorite episodes from the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. We’d love to hear from you about what you thought your favorite episodes were and of course, content ideas you have for us going forward, always welcome it. [email protected]. At this point, we’re going to bring back some of the guests that we’ve had on the show before, some of our favorite episodes and stories. We’re going to ask them, we have asked them to give a quick update of their story, where they’re at. And so let’s hear from those guests right now.

Nick Ornella: Hello, this is Nick Ornella from Episode 079 of the YFP podcast. Since being on the show in December, my wife and I submitted the final payment on her student loans, so over $37,000 paid off in a little over 10 months. We took a two-week trip to Spain and Morocco to celebrate and also to celebrate our 1-year wedding anniversary. And after that little spending splurge, we started saving again, this time hopefully to start a family here in the near future. I’m still working full-time as a pharmacy manager at Walgreens, and I’ve been working hard on my blog, the Young Professional’s Guide to a year off. And as YFP celebrates its 100th episode, YFP had an impact on my own journey because Tim Ulbrich was there for me way back in 2016 when I decided to take a year-long sabbatical from my pharmacy career to travel. I found the YFP website and blog and reached out to Tim, and he was there to give me advice and encouragement. He was a big reason why I decided to hit pause on my career and to pursue my dream of traveling for a year. And that year ended up being just an incredible experience and one of the best years of my life. So I’m forever grateful for Tim and YFP for the help and inspiration that he gave me. And I think the work that YFP is doing is important because it helps young pharmacists get out of debt, become financially independent so they can live more intentional lives and not be controlled by debt obligations. You know, it allows people to take bigger risks like starting a new business or becoming an entrepreneur or doing something crazy like I did and quitting their job for a year to pursue a lifelong dream. So a big congrats to Tim and the YFP team on 100 episodes. Please keep up the good work!

Jill Paslier: Hey, it’s Jill and Sylvain Paslier from Episode 050. We wanted to give you a little update on what we are up to now. We’re still budgeting every month, and it feels really great to be saving money instead of sending so much back to the bank for loan payments. Our current spending plan has a little more room for fun stuff like traveling and enjoying our hobbies like playing music. I’m also trying to be a resource for the local college of pharmacy to help encourage financial literacy education for the students. I’m also facilitating Financial Peace University, which is a Dave Ramsey course, at our local church.

Sylvain Paslier: Being in control of our finances and becoming debt-free has given me peace of mind to actually leave my 9-5 job and launch my own business. And I think it’s working well because I could focus on the work instead of worry about the money. I even started my own podcast.

Jill Paslier: I think YFP is a great resource, especially for students and new pharmacists as we are learning how to manage our own personal finances. Many of us make the transition from making very little money to making significantly more, and I think it’s important to make this adjustment wisely so that we have a purpose and a plan for our money. I also really love the online YFP community, such as on Facebook. We can ask questions and have peer support as we continue to learn about managing our money together.

Sylvain Paslier: While there are plenty of resources out there on wealth management and personal finance, finding a specific community of people that you can relate to makes for meaningful connections and increased motivation and progress, which is great about the YFP community.

Jill Paslier: Thanks for listening. Bye!

Derek Schwartz: Hi, this is Derek Schwartz from Episode 014 of the YFP podcast. My podcast aired in September of 2017, when I was still on my journey to becoming debt-free. And my journey started in late 2014, when I made my first student loan payment, and I had over $180,000 in student loan debt to tackle. 40 months later, in early 2018, I made my last student loan payment ever. I paid off $180,000 in debt in 40 months, and looking back on it, it was such an incredible time to not do things with money because I sacrificed every dollar that I could to go into student loans. Every penny I could pinch would go back into it. And that’s the secret. That’s what you’ve got to do. I tell people, if you’re really serious about paying off your debt as soon as you can, you have to budget and squeeze out every dollar and cent you can to go back onto the student loans. Trust me, it’s worth it being on this side. Since I’ve been debt-free, I’ve been able to save money for an emergency fund, I’ve increased contributions to my retirement accounts, and this summer, I’m looking to purchase my first home. All of that couldn’t have been accomplished without paying off my student loans first. And one of the reasons I’m really excited about the YFP community is it’s a group of other pharmacists that are looking for the same goal. They’re looking for financial stability. They want to get their student loans paid off. They want to save money for retirement so they can have some. And it’s such a great community that brings in all the questions, you can get all the answers there, and it’s been amazing to have been a part of it since Episode 014 of my podcast. Happy 100 episodes of the YFP podcast! And I look forward to the next 100. Thanks, everyone.

Blake Johnson: Hey, guys, this is Blake Johnson from Episode 082 of the YFP podcast. Just a quick update on where me and my wife are. We just finished up rehabbing our eighth rental property with our business partners. And that was exciting for us because in April, that marked one year of being in business, and we were able to close, rehab and rent out our eighth property. So we’ve made good strides here in our first year, and we hope to continue to do that in the following years. However, at this time, our market is getting flooded with investors, so we’re planning on slowing down the purchasing a bit and make sure we invest wisely and purchase at the right price. Outside of that, we continue to invest in our Vanguard funds, specifically, our BTSAX mutual fund and also invest and max out my wife’s 401k. This summer, we’re going to enjoy a little trip, bigger than usual. We’re going to go over to Europe and spend a week in Paris and Prague. We both like looking at architecture and just kind of soaking in the environment and culture over there. So we’re going to enjoy that. That’s just a quick recap on where we’re at. But I just want to congratulate the guys over at YFP for celebrating its 100th episode coming in. These guys are making a huge difference, and the reason why is as pharmacists, we just don’t receive, in most schools, financial matters. We spend so much time learning about clinical decisions and learning about all of the different chemistry and pharmacology of drugs, but we never have any education on finances. And that’s a problem because we’re in a profession where it’s great, we come out making six figures, but we have no education on how to invest that wisely. And the guys at YFP are making sure that we know how to do that. When we graduate, we can take two roads. We can go on one road and just spend it all and never invest it and when we retire, have no money. Or we can take another road where we learn to live on less than we make and invest it wisely. And the guys at YFP are laying out a great road map on how to do that. They’re teaching people how to invest it wisely, how to protect ourself with insurances and make sure you know who to talk to if you don’t understand the stock market and how to invest your money. So guys, congratulations on your 100th episode, and I hope down the road as we look back 20 years from this that we see pharmacists that are retiring with lots of savings and lots of money saved up. That way, they can continue to give of their time and also of their money, just like we give in our profession now. Congratulations, guys, and I hope to see more good from you.

Tim Ulbrich: So thank you to those guests that came back on the show, took time to give us an update on your story. We appreciate your contribution, obviously, to the podcast and the community. And at this point, we’re going to hear from some of the pharmacy entrepreneurs out there that have been just incredible collaborators and partners for us over at Your Financial Pharmacist and in large part, have allowed us to be successful in the work that we’ve been doing.

Alex Barker: Hey, this is Alex Barker, the Happy PharmD founder, where we help pharmacists create fulfilling careers and lives. I had the privilege of being on Episode 007, 038 and 092. 100 episodes! Congratulations, YFP team, all of you Tims. Few podcasters reach this milestone, so this is great. But what should be celebrated more is their mission because the more pharmacists who pursue financial freedom, the more impact our profession can make. Because I believe what stops most from pursuing a dream, a goal, a great ambition, something risky, is the excuse of not having enough money. But financial freedom makes that excuse go away. And in turn, it frees up pharmacists to pursue greater and bigger things. Look, I was able to pay off $200,000 in debt. And that has financially freed my family to live our dream. And this summer, we’re actually celebrating by going around the country in a road trip. This is something that we would never be able to do if we were financially burdened. And it may seem like a long way for you to go. But trust me, we thought the same thing when we first started this journey. You can do it. Financial freedom is possible. Cheers to the YFP team and all you financial freedom-seekers.

Blair Thielemeier: Hi, this is Blair Thielemeier, founder of Pharmapreneur Academy and author of “How to Build a Pharmacy Consulting Business.” I was a guest on Episodes 039 and 089 of the YFP podcast. And as they’re celebrating their 100th episode, I was reflecting on the difference that YFP is making in pharmacists’ lives in helping them create a solid financial foundation on which they can build a business. So we all know that the job market is somewhat shaky these days. Being able to build a side hustle in pharmacy consulting is literally changing pharmacists’ lives. And having a solid financial foundation just gives you the ability to take more risks in your career and do something you truly love. So I just wanted to say thank you to all the Tims for creating this amazing podcast and doing this work in helping pharmacists change their financial lives.

Adam Martin: Hello, this is Adam Martin, founder of the Fit Pharmacist, speaker and author of both “Rx You: The Pharmacist’s Survival Guide to Managing Stress and Fitting in Fitness,” and “Scripting Your Success: How to Jumpstart Your Career,” as well as host of the Fit Pharmacist healthcare podcast. I was a guest on Episode 091 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, and as Your Financial Pharmacist celebrates its 100th episode, I want to congratulate the Tim team on this monumental achievement. Seriously, job well done, guys. I believe that Your Financial Pharmacist is making a difference in our profession because as pharmacists, we are trained to perform root cause analysis to medication error review. This translates to finances perfectly, as stated in their book, “Seven Figure Pharmacist,” as root cause analysis unveils that financial problems, regardless of the specific situation, stem from the five behavioral biases that impact financial decisions: overconfidence, hyperbolic discounting, loss aversion, status quo and herd mentality. In the book, Tim and Tim share their experience with all of the pharmacists and students they have helped to overcome financial burdens through their work. Overall, they help us to overcome the most common financial pharmacy pitfalls, keeping us away from financial fitness through the work that they do. Congratulations, guys, on all you have given through investing in our profession. Wishing you great success on the interest you have compounded throughout the years. With gratitude, Adam.

Ashlee: What’s up, listeners? Ashlee here from RxAshlee. I was on Episode 095, just a couple weeks ago, with Tim Ulbrich. And I had so much fun. And when I found out that you guys are celebrating your 100th episode, I was like, oh my gosh, I have to congratulate you. I know what an accomplishment that feels like. I understand the hard work, the blood, sweat and tears that go into building a podcast, building a platform, creating such an awesome, valuable show for the pharmacy profession. I believe the work that YFP is doing is critical because of the need that we are going through in pharmacy. So many of us are graduating with student loans. So many of us are graduating with all of these questions of how do I invest in myself? How do I prepare for my future? And all three of the Tims are really meeting us there. They’re giving us what we need and that support, tips, advice on how to strategize and making sure that we can live our best lives inside the profession and, most importantly, outside. So thanks again to all the Tims, to all the YFP community, you guys are really the future of this profession. And I love, love, love supporting you. Thanks again, and congratulations! I am always going to be one of your No. 1 fans.

Nate Hedrick: Hi, this is Nate Hedrick, founder of the Real Estate RPH and frequent guest of the YFP podcast. Just wanted to take a second to congratulate Your Financial Pharmacist on their 100th episode. I really feel like YFP’s making a difference in the pharmacy world. They’re providing some much-needed financial education. Especially as someone who graduated pharmacy school with literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loan, it’s been really nice having them as a resource as I work toward paying off that loan and ultimately, trying to achieve financial freedom. Looking forward to partnering with you guys even more in the future, and I’m excited to see what you have in store for the next 100 episodes. Congratulations, guys!

Tim Ulbrich: So to those pharmacy entrepreneurs, thank you so much for taking the time to provide your input and know that we, the collective Tims, have so much respect for the work that you’re doing. You’re an inspiration to us each and every day, each and every week, and it’s certainly fun to be a part of this community of pharmacy entrepreneurships that are, I think collectively helping one another and hopefully paving the ways for others that want to go into this area as well. So I want to end this episode in us having some conversation about why do we keep going? So as we think about episodes 101 through 200, you know, what’s the point? What’s the purpose? What’s the content? And why do we continue to go on this journey? And so Tim Baker, as we think about the future and where we’re heading and the mission of YFP and really, I think that we believe we’re just kind of getting started on this journey, what’s the future look like? Why do we keep going from here on?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you know, I think sometimes it’s hard with the day-to-day, you get so busy with what you’re doing and obviously working with clients and things like that it’s sometimes hard to slow down and reflect, which is a little bit — I don’t want to say it’s hypocritical, but what I try to do is force clients to do that on their journey and with their financial plan and really take stock of where we’ve been and where we’re going. But you know, there’s a few times recently — obviously with this episode that you think about just where the heck we were a couple years ago and I think where we’re at. But I think more recently, you know, when we were at the APhA conference in Seattle, we had a booth there, and I wish Tim Church was there with us because he would have ran through a wall after that experience because he would have just been so fired up about I think the buzz that we saw there. And literally, I don’t even know how long we stood there just meeting different people that walked by our booth. But it could have been two or three, four hours, I have no idea. It felt like two minutes because you just talk to people — and I think one of the things that’s really crazy about the podcast is that you feel — people speak to you as if they know you. And maybe they do because they’ve heard us so much on the podcast. And you know, I don’t take that lightly. And I think for me, it’s just like you said, seeing people fired up about a topic that they maybe weren’t fired up about it two years ago. And I think about all of the content that we have out there with the podcast and the guides and the blog posts and things like that, but I really think that we’re only scratching the surface. I think that there’s so many things that we have yet to uncover, and I think the scope of what we’ve talked about it broad, but I think even doing a deeper dive or even expanding our scope and our discussion. And I think wanting to be thought leaders, you know, in and around the profession of pharmacy I think is important to us and really, ask those good questions. So I just get really, like I said, I get really fired up about thinking about where we still I think need to venture and go. And like I said, it’s been a great ride. Like I kind of reflect on my own personal journey, and I think about how grateful and how lucky, really, I am to have come across you guys, you know, Tim and Tim. And I think without you guys, like none of this is really possible. And I think like when we start to go down the path of saying, hey, we’re doing this podcast and we’re doing financial planning and the book and all this stuff, and I think the mindset from Day 1 is can we row this ship in the same direction, this boat in the same direction and one Tim looking out for the benefit and the interests of the other Tim has just been, it’s been an honor, really. Not to sound cheesy, but I know I’m exactly where I need to be because none of this feels like work to me. It feels like I am perfectly positioned to be doing what I’m doing because I enjoy working with pharmacists as a financial planner as much as I enjoy trying to figure out the business and where we’re going to go with YFP and, really, the direction that’s still ahead of us. So thank you guys. That’s my thought.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Church, what gets you jacked up about the next 100 episodes?

Tim Church: Yeah, it’s been a really fun ride. And I think that the one thing that really gets me fired up — and you guys kind of mentioned that already — is just the transformation. There’s been a number of people that have said as a result of interacting with our brand, whether it’s the podcast or some other form, that a change has happened for the better and that they’re in a better position than they were before they heard of us, before they listened to some piece of content, before a story was told. And so I think there’s a lot more people out there that need to hear some of these stories to get inspired and motivated because I think it can have just an incredible amount of change and movement across everybody in the profession. I think one of the other things that really fires me up is when schools and organizations reach out to us to come in and really be able to cater to a larger group. And I think that’s really a cool thing when we’re able to make a bigger impact in that way. So I think those things are really interesting and motivating to me to kind of keep things going.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I think one of the things we’ve talked a lot about this weekend together is while certainly we are running a business, I think what gets us more excited is actually moving the needle on this issue. So as we all know that personal finance is such a thread of every part of your life that if your financial house isn’t in order, it impact lots of things. It impacts marriages, it impacts relationships, it impacts your quality of life, your satisfaction at work. And I think really moving the needle with helping on these transformations and helping people put their financial house in order is really what we want to hopefully continue to do and look back and say, ‘That was a really fun journey in doing it.’ And one of the things I think we’re super passionate about is this education around personal finance and financial literacy needs to be in every college of pharmacy across the country. And we’ve begun to pave that road, but we have some exciting plans hopefully to continue that into the future, but making sure that every graduate is coming out with some basic skill level and understanding of what they need to do as it relates to their financial plan. And I should say that the only way we’re going to move the needle on this issue is not through the three of us running as fast as we can. The way we move the needle on this issue of personal finance and everything that comes with it is through the collective community of thousands and thousands of pharmacists saying, we care about this topic and we want to do this a different way than maybe it’s been done before. And that’s what it’s about. It’s about empowering the community to collectively move this issue forward. And we’re not going to do it as the three of us. It needs to be this group as a whole. And so I want to also thank — you know, I think just to echo Tim Baker’s comments — I mean, without the three of us, I think the collective power of what we each bring, you know, this wouldn’t be where we’re at. So I think us working together and running the same direction is where we need to go with the community alongside of us. I think we also would be remiss if we didn’t thank Shea, Andrea and Jess for — this takes a lot of time. I think we’ve been spending three or four hours this afternoon putting together a couple episodes, and that means sacrifice, it means time away from family. And that’s not easy. And I think for them, allowing us to pursue our dream and our passions, you know, I think it goes without saying that we love you guys and certainly appreciate what you do. And Caitlyn and the entire team at YFP, Caitlyn, Paul, Frankie, Tom…

Tim Baker: Christina.

Tim Ulbrich: Christina, I mean, as we think ahead to the future, hopefully more on the team as well. We’re so grateful for your buy-in to the vision, your commitment to what we’re trying to do. And again, it’s about the team, and the team is really I think moving everything in the same direction. So let me wrap up by saying to the YFP community, we thank you. We’re grateful for your continued support of the work that we’re doing. We’re excited to be here at Episode 100, but I think we’re more excited about what lies ahead for the next 100 and beyond.

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The FIRE Prescription: How to Retire Early as a Pharmacist

Posted on by yfpadmin

The FIRE Prescription: How to Retire Early as a Pharmacist

The following is a guest post from Dr. Jeffrey Keimer. Dr. Keimer is a 2011 graduate of Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences and pharmacy manager for a regional drugstore chain in Vermont. He and his wife Alex have been pursuing financial independence since 2016.

If you’ve started going down the internet’s personal finance rabbit hole, you’ve no doubt crossed paths with the FIRE movement. FIRE (financial independence, retire early) is a concept that’s been gaining a lot of traction lately. What was once considered a fringe topic, mostly covered by blogs such as Mr. Money Mustache or Early Retirement Extreme, has morphed into a widespread movement with mainstream coverage. Some are even calling it “the ultimate life hack.”

But what is it and why should it matter to us, pharmacists?

What is FIRE?

FIRE is based around the concept that it is possible to retire early (ie. before 65) by living off the income generated passively through investments. This is not a new concept. All throughout history, people have done this. You might think of this crowd as the 1%. So why all the buzz now?

Because it turns out, you don’t have to be a 1%’er to make it happen. Say what?!

How?

Because one of the core tenants of the FIRE movement is that the amount of money you need for retirement is purely a function of your expenses and NOT your income. You can control your expenses.

Should You Join the FIRE Movement?

But what about us? As pharmacists, we’ve sunk a lot of time and effort into getting where we are. So much so, that when people ask you what you do, you don’t respond with “Well, I work for company _____ in the _____ department,” you respond with “I’m a pharmacist.” What we do is embedded in our identities. So, you may ask yourself, why should I get into the FIRE movement? Surely, this whole retire early business is something only a cubicle worker who files TPS reports all day would dream about right?

Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe you feel burned out or you’ve just become disillusioned with our profession. That’s what one pharmacist, Jason Long of Tennessee, felt and decided FIRE was the way to go. In a NY Times article covering the FIRE movement, Jason cited burnout and job dissatisfaction as the primary reasons why he adopted a FIRE mindset and called it quits early.

He’s not alone in his feelings about the profession either. According to a recent article in Drug Topics, job satisfaction in pharmacy overall isn’t great with 29% of respondents to their survey indicating that they’d be looking for a new job in the next 12 months. Reasons cited: increased work volume and less help to do it. Factor in a more saturated job market, lower compensation packages, and the potential for Amazon to disrupt the whole industry with its Pillpack acquisition and there are plenty of reasons for a pharmacist to feel like their profession is on the ropes.

But maybe that’s not you. Maybe you love your job and love being a pharmacist. What then? Well, FIRE has something to offer you, too. In a word: options. Personally, I love being a pharmacist (I even work retail if you can believe it). Financial independence without the retire early angle can give you the flexibility to get more from your career. Mid-career residency? Part-time by choice? Want to start a business? In short, there’s a lot of power in not needing a paycheck.

How to Retire Early as a Pharmacist

Now that I’ve talked it up, it’s time to get down to brass tacks and layout a roadmap for FIRE. There are a few important concepts to understand, but before we get into that, I think it’s important to highlight some of the things that FIRE isn’t:

  1. A get rich quick scheme
  2. Some guru’s course
  3. A set formula
  4. Easy

That last one is the big one. FIRE is not something to go for on a whim or halfheartedly. It will not happen overnight. It will involve sacrifice and, probably, a fundamental change in your relationship to money. You need to have a good reason for pursuing FIRE if you’re going to be successful. In short, you’re going to need one heck of a WHY.

Got it? Great.

So how does it work? Like I said before, there are a few concepts that form the basis of the FIRE movement and here’s a good order to introduce them:

  1. Safe Withdrawal Rates and the “4% Rule”
  2. Reducing Expenses and Increasing Savings Rate
  3. Investing
  4. Drawdown

Safe Withdrawal Rates and the “4% Rule”

As mentioned before, FIRE philosophy focuses on expenses being the main variable in determining how much you need to retire. But the question remains: how much do I need? Luckily, the academics have provided that answer with what’s called a “Safe Withdrawal Rate” or SWR.

So what’s that? First, the long answer.

SWR refers to the rate (expressed as a percentage) that a retiree can realistically take out of their retirement portfolio, adjust for inflation every year, and never run out of money. Based on academic research, notably the Trinity study, this number has been said to be 4% when applied to a portfolio consisting of 50% stocks and 50% bonds. In that study, the authors looked at different mixes of stocks and bonds over different 30 year stretches from 1925-1995 to determine the probability of portfolio failure (ie. running out of money) when different withdrawal rates were applied. In all those scenarios, it was determined that a person who took out 4% of the portfolio and then adjusted their subsequent withdrawals for inflation going forward had a 0% chance of running out of money at the end of the 30-year period. From this, we get what’s known as the “4% rule.”

In short, if you divide your yearly expenses by 0.04 (or multiply by 25!) you come up with a portfolio balance (your FIRE number) that can provide a stream of income to cover your expenses for at least 30 years, if not indefinitely. Now, this is somewhat of an oversimplification, which is why 4% being a “rule” needs to be taken more as a guideline, but you get the gist. In today’s environment, SWRs might be lower, but for now, you can estimate your FIRE number like this.

Yearly Expenses*25 = FIRE Number

For perspective, that means $1,000,000 can provide you with a $40,000/yr (plus inflation) forever.

Reducing Expenses

Since how much you spend is what determines how much you need to save, cutting expenses really accelerates the whole process. Frugality is your friend. Just think, if you’re spending $100/month on cable and decide to cut the cord, that’s an extra $30,000 you DON’T need to save. What about a car lease payment? Or a McMansion? Then we’re talking in the hundreds of thousands to MILLIONS less.

Note too, that by cutting expenses, you also free up money to save. The rate that you save (taken as a percentage of income) is what really determines how long it will take for you to reach financial independence. To illustrate this point, we’ll use an early retirement calculator.

  • Assume Bob is a 24-year-old new practitioner making $120,000/year gross with no prior savings and a 5% rate of return on investments.
  • If after taxes and expenses, Bob can save $18,000 per year (15%), he will hit financial independence in about 43 years at the age of 67. This is pretty standard retirement savings advice, by the way.
  • However, if Bob can jack up his savings rate to 30%, he can now retire in 28 years at the age of 52.
  • And, if Bob goes all-in on FIRE and gets that rate up to 50%, he can retire in a little under 17 years. Just after he turns 40. Bob wins.

See, math can be fun!

But cutting expenses isn’t just about choosing to go without cable or driving a more sensible car, it’s also about getting out of debt. Debts are expenses just like any other and should be dealt with as part of your FIRE plan.

Unfortunately, this is the stage of the FIRE journey that involves the most pain. In a way, it’s like committing to losing weight. Your budget is your diet and you’re only going to get the results you want by sticking to it. Thankfully, maintaining a budget is easier than ever thanks to apps such as YNAB and Mint.

Speaking of debt, even if you’re not fully sold on FIRE, getting out of debt is transformative and something everyone should strive for. I don’t agree with Dave Ramsey on much, but he is right when he says, “the borrower is a slave to the lender.” Debt such as student loans, car loans, credit cards, etc., chains you to work in a way that’s just unhealthy. You can have the greatest job ever, but if you need your whole paycheck to service your debts, your relationship with your work is going to suffer and you’ll probably start resenting it.

That said, there’s one important caveat to getting out of debt that pharmacists should keep in mind. Bringing the full-on beans and rice diet intensity to your student loans may not be the best course of action if you can qualify for loan forgiveness. With FIRE, optimization is key. You may find it more profitable in the long run to forgo paying off your student loans outright if you qualify for some of these programs. Check out this YFP podcast episode on how to optimize forgiveness.

Another way to reduce your expenses could be refinancing your student loans or mortgage. Lowering your monthly payment on your mortgage or student loans will likely save you a lot of money each month. With these additional savings, you could put even more toward knocking out your debt! While student loan refinancing isn’t for everyone especially if you’re pursuing PSLF or non-PSLF loan forgiveness, you could earn up to $800 in a cash bonus from a reputable company YFP has partnered with!

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Investing

The umbrella of “investing” covers a wide range of topics but in this article, I’m only going to briefly touch on the two major types of investments most pharmacists will encounter on their journey to FIRE: paper assets and real estate.

Paper assets are those such as stocks and bonds that you can invest in using 401(k)s, 403(b)s, 457s, IRAs, and brokerage accounts. These are the types of assets that generate truly passive returns and, with a properly diversified portfolio, can make FIRE possible. That said, there’s no one way to go about investing in these.

Within the FIRE community, index investing strategies (aka. indexing), such as those advocated by JL Collins, are quite popular. Central to indexing is the focus on low-cost index mutual funds. What are those? Without getting too much into the weeds, they’re mutual funds that give investors a diverse basket of stocks or bonds (sometimes all of them) at little or no cost. In general, these strategies call for a gradual decline in the proportion of stocks (high risk, higher return) to bonds (low risk, lower return) over time. And, while this isn’t different from the conventional approach to investing, the emphasis on using funds with low costs can make the whole process more efficient. Is indexing the best way to go about FIRE? Maybe, maybe not. However, it is one of the most accessible and can get you started.

Beyond stocks and bonds, many FIRE devotees choose to invest in real estate. In addition to acting as an asset that isn’t correlated with either the stock or bond markets, real estate investing can provide a level of passive income that can decrease the amount of money you need to save in paper assets. While not necessary to FIRE, many investors find real estate to be a worthwhile pursuit and can accelerate your path.

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Drawdown

Finally, after amassing your war chest, you need a way to get at it. Since the primary vehicle most people use is a retirement account, how do you get the money out before regular retirement age? Fortunately, the FIRE community’s good at finding loopholes. Between Roth IRA laddering, 72(t) distributions, or simply taking the money out at a lower tax rate and paying the penalty, there are ways to jailbreak your money in a way that makes sense.

How to Join the FIRE Movement

So how do you get started? First and foremost, make a commitment to taking control of your finances and making them a priority. Second, get your spouse or significant other on board (super important!). Third, take action in a way that makes sense for you. Lastly, join others in the FIRE movement by connecting with groups online. FIRE isn’t just a movement but a community.

So, if this all sounds good, I invite you to take charge and change your life.

Welcome to FIRE!

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YFP 099: Key Financial Moves for Pharmacy Graduates

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Key Financial Moves to Make as a Pharmacy Graduate

Tim, Tim and Tim discuss several key financial moves to make as a pharmacy graduate.

Summary

Tim, Tim and Tim are live for another episode of the YFP podcast. On this episode, they discuss several moves every pharmacy graduate should make as they are transitioning into new practitioner life (based off the blog post: https://yourfinancialpharmacist.com/20-financial-moves-every-pharmacy-graduate-should-make/ ).

Two important first moves pharmacy graduates should make is having an emergency fund and eliminating credit card debt. Tim Baker explains that you should eliminate credit card debt as it’s the most predatory with high interest rates and doesn’t allow you to build wealth on your own. Creating an emergency fund gives you a cash reserve so that you don’t get into more credit card debt. He suggests having a 3 to 6 month emergency fund.

Long-term disability insurance is an important move to make because you never know what is going to happen. Disability insurance provides you with income in the event of an illness or an accident causing you to not be able to work.

Determining a student loan strategy is always a decision that new graduates are faced with. However, the answer depends on many factors including how you feel about the loans, what type of loans you have and whether you are going to work for a qualifying employer (PSLF), among others. Tim Baker reminds listeners to be intentional and to find a professional that understands loans to help guide your decision making.

Another important move to make is to begin investing in your company’s 401k, 403b or TSP retirement fund by at least contributing to the match. As mentioned many times before, an employer match provides essentially free money that you are unable to go back in time to get. Tim Church also shares that lowering your AGI by contributing to a retirement fund could lower your student loan payments, thus allowing you to simultaneously build wealth.

Considering a side hustle is important during this time as so much is changing in the job market. Many pharmacists are experiencing pay cuts as full-time hours are changing from 40 hours to 30 hours/week. A side hustle utilizes your skills to bring in other income, whether it is through pharmacy work or another passion you have.

Lastly, the Tims discuss the importance of avoiding lifestyle creep.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode, Episode 099 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. One episode away from Episode 100. We’re going to talk about financial moves we think every pharmacy graduate and every new practitioner and even others should be making when it comes to their own financial plan. Now, we’re going to talk about a handful of things that come from a great blog post that Tim Church wrote, “20 Financial Moves that Every Pharmacy Graduate Should Make,” and that entire list of 20 and that blog post is available over at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/20. Again, that’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/20. So when I pulled up this blog post, Tim Church, there’s a lot here. I mean, how long did this one take you to write?

Tim Church: That one took awhile because you guys had some input on that as well and we kind of went back and forth and tried to hit all the key moves that we wanted people to know about.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And you know, as I think about back to graduating from pharmacy school — I’m sure you feel the same way — this would have been a list of, wow, I wish I would have known these things at graduation, right? So that’s the goal. I think a lot of lessons that we’ve learned along the way, lessons we’ve heard from the community, wanting to help out graduates and new practitioners as they’re making this critical, important transition into new practitioner life. So Tim Baker, the first two that I want to talk about are what you referred to in Episode 026 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, which are around emergency fund and eliminating credit card debt, which you call “baby stepping” into your financial plan.

Tim Baker: That’s right.

Tim Ulbrich: So talk me through why those are so important in terms of getting started with a financial plan.

Tim Baker: Yeah, I think those are really the two things that I look at when I look at someone’s financial situation is what do we have in cash reserves and what’s the consumer debt look like? You know, typically from a consumer debt perspective, the debt’s going to be the most predatory. You know, paying high interest credit card for balances that you’re carrying, you’re never really going to transition to the ability to build wealth on your own. We talk about the eighth wonder of the world is compound interest. You’ve got to make that work for yourself, not for a credit card company. So that’s probably, you know, from the get-go, what’s that picture look like? And almost everything else stops — almost — maybe everything. I’m thinking of like an employer match, but almost everything else stops if that’s a thing because it’s just, like I said, it can be tough to get out of. The second, basically once we get out of that predicament, the second thing is having some cash reserves a la an emergency fund so we don’t get back into the credit card debt. There’s a stat out there that says 40% of Americans can’t cover a $400 emergency. That’s super scary. So for that percentage of Americans, what is their emergency fund? It’s the Mastercard. It’s the Visa. It’s the American Express. And then we kind of just repeat the cycle. You know, I have clients that they have a ton of credit card debt, and then they consolidate down into a personal debt, they wipe the slate, and then they clear it eventually, and then they do it again. And hopefully, now that they’re working with me, we’re going to break that cycle. So the emergency fund really allows you to do three things. First, it gives you peace of mind. Knowing that you have cash money in the bank allows you to sleep better at night. The second thing it does is it really allows you to avoid that predatory credit card debt. You know, like we said, most people will reach for the Mastercard, the Visa, to get out of those emergency situations. And then finally what it does is it allows you to get your money working in the investment world and keep it working without having to basically withdraw that in the event an emergency happens.

Tim Church: So Tim, where do you recommend your clients keep their emergency fund? And how much do you recommend that they have?

Tim Baker: That’s a great question. So you know, typically what we say is you want to have 3-6 months of non-discretionary monthly expenses, which is just a really a fancy word to say expenses that are going to go out the door regardless if you work or not. So those are going to be things like your rent or your mortgage, groceries, utility bills, your loan payments. So if you’re a single income earner, and you have $5,000 of those expenses after you add them all up, then you’d take $5,000 times 6 months, and it’s a $30,000 emergency fund. If you’re a dual income earner, you typically are allowed or should, recommended to have closer to 3 months. So it would be in that situation, $15,000. And the idea is that, you know, a dual income earner, you’re not putting your proverbial income eggs in one basket. Typically, both spouses or both partners are not going to lose their job at the same time. So that’s basically how you calculate it. Now, where to put it is a great question as well. So you want, typically you want something that is liquid that you can get to it at a known price, which is cash is best. Maybe not too easy to get to, something that bears some interest, but that’s not typically the point of the account. So when I started advising clients on emergency fund, I looked at a lot of different routes, a lot of different banks, actually. Ally, Synchrony Bank, Capital One, to name a few. I really like Ally; that’s what I use. I typically recommend that. It’s just easy to use, easy interface, app is clean, website is clean and easy to use. And it gets 2.2%, which I like. So that’s typically the high-yield savings account that we’ll look at for the emergency fund.

Tim Ulbrich: So as we think about the graduate coming out today, May 2019, they’re facing $150,000-200,000 of student loan debt, overwhelmed, likely, with that and what it means, lots of other competing priorities. And now they’re hearing 3-6 months worth of expenses and all of a sudden, they might look at their budget and figure out this is $10,000-30,000, and they say, “Thanks, Tim, Tim and Tim, but here’s the reality of what I’m working with.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: So the question is, where do I even get started with this? And what’s the baby step I can take to begin this process?

Tim Baker: I think you want to phase, you have like a phase plan. So as an example, if I’m looking at $10,000 worth of credit card debt, which I see all the time for a P4 or resident, I really don’t have anything cash at all, I sit down with a client and say, “OK, let’s build a baseline emergency fund.” So maybe it’s $2,500. Maybe it’s $5,000. Maybe it’s $10,000 of, in that case, a $25,000 or $30,000 emergency fund. So I think building a baseline emergency fund, a target that we can get to that once we achieve, then we can kind of look at the credit card debt and be gazelle-like, if you want to say, laser-focused, and really plow through the credit card debt. Now, and the reason that we do that is because, you know, obviously in an ideal world, we’d like to snap our fingers and all of a sudden, we have cash reserves for credit card debt. But the reality is is that that’s not going to happen overnight. So typically, my recommendation is to take bite-sized pieces, get to a baseline emergency fund that you feel comfortable with, and once we achieve that, then go to Phase 2, which is turn off the emergency fund contribution, apply that completely to the credit cards, hustle, side hustle, listen to Tim Church in that regard, and really start making moves towards that. And then once that phase is over, let’s get back into the emergency fund and get that going.

Tim Ulbrich: So we talked about several important things around emergency fund, 3-6 months of expenses, we talked about you want it liquid, you want it when you need it for an emergency, get it out of your checking account so that you can hold some of that temptation of pulling from it from your day-to-day expenses. One of the things we didn’t mention is just the power of actually naming it an emergency fund.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think we often talk with pharmacists — which I’m sure you see this with clients — where they say, “Hey, I’ve got this lump savings account,” and in their mind, they have five or six things they’re saving for. But really, the power of calling it an emergency fund, which is really true with any other goal.

Tim Baker: Yeah, I mean, it’s so true because the psychology says that you’re less likely to steal from your emergency fund if you call it an emergency fund if it’s not for an emergency. It’s just like we talk about with a travel fund, it’s great to have a travel fund, but if you can actually call it where you’re planning to go next, you know, Disneyworld, Iceland, wherever that is, you’re less likely to steal from Minnie and Mickey Mouse because it’s named “Disneyworld” if I want to go buy something that I’m not necessarily, that that fund is not necessarily for. So I think it’s important to do that. You know, we kind of do the mental accounting. I see a lot of clients that have cash in an account, and it will be $20,000, and I’ll say, “What’s that for?” And they’re like, “Well, I think it’s an emergency fund. I don’t know.” So my thing is clearly delineate what it’s for. And if there’s a travel fund mixed in with the emergency fund, break it out, you know, separate those funds.

Tim Ulbrich: So first two moves that we’re talking about here are eliminating credit card debt, coming up with a plan, and establishing an emergency fund. Again, we’re pulling from the “20 Financial Moves that Every Pharmacy Graduate Should Make” over at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/20. Next one, Tim Church, is get long-term disability insurance. So you know, I think this one is tough. Nobody likes to think about a situation where hey, for whatever reason, I’m no longer able to work as a pharmacist because of a car accident, chronic illness, whatever. And certainly, this isn’t as exciting as paying down debt or building wealth, right? Nobody likes to send in insurance premiums. So why should pharmacists, even young pharmacists and graduates, be thinking about having disability income protection in place?

Tim Church: I was one of those people for awhile that felt that, you know, nothing was going to happen to me. I’m young, I’m healthy.

Tim Baker: Invincible.

Tim Church: Not much is going to happen. But the reality is when I learned a couple pharmacists that I knew that I was working with, they were unable to work, at least temporarily, because of autoimmune diseases, accidents that they had in their cars. I mean, the reality is stuff happens. When you look back, how much time, energy, focus, money, did you put in to become a pharmacist and be able to practice, be able to make an income? So when you look at that, all that was put in to get there, I mean, don’t you think it’s a good idea to protect that? And that is really where long-term disability comes into play. And long-term disability insurance, it’s really income insurance. And what it does is it provides you with money in the event that you’re not able to work because of illness or accident.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I think a lot of people, they forget that one part is most disabilities occur because of an illness, not because of an accident. And you know, like I always tell pharmacists is like, you’re not going to like it. You’re not going to like paying premiums for a disability policy because quite frankly, they can be expensive.

Tim Church: Yeah, a lot of times, even more expensive than life insurance that you’re trying to —

Tim Baker: Yeah. But the fact is that you’re more likely to be disabled than to have a premature death. You’re more likely to have way more expenses when you’re disabled versus a premature death because alive, you probably have medical issues that you have to deal with, so this is doubly important because it’s one of those things where you always think it’s going to happen to somebody else. And the fact of the matter is, you’re right at the precipice of your career and really, your earning potential, and you want to protect that. Becoming a PharmD is — I don’t know firsthand — but I understand it’s very difficult. And you spend a lot of blood, sweat and tears to get to where you’re at. So you want to protect that ability to earn.

Tim Church: Yeah, and I think one of the questions that often comes up is well, my employer provides it. So I don’t really need to worry about it or need to get that. And you know, that may be the case, and I think there are some situations where you may have enough coverage and you may be protected, but I think a couple things that you want to consider is that even if you do have something through your own employer, the couple things you want to consider is No. 1, is it portable? Because the days of working for the same employer for your whole entire life, that may not necessarily be the case now. So if you move and change jobs, you know, is your new employer No. 1 going to offer it? But what if your health status changes and you need to get coverage on your own? So a lot can change. And the second thing is just because your employer provides it, it may not be exactly what you need. So one of the things when I was working part-time for a hospital, I was checking out what was offered based on my fellow employees who were working there, and what we found was that they only offered own occupation coverage for two years. So own occupation is one of those riders or add-ons, sometimes baked into the policy, that you really want to be aware of. But essentially, what that is is if you can’t work as a pharmacist, you’re going to get a percentage of your pay every month as a benefit. Whereas other policies and other coverage, they’re having any occupation, which means if you can do any kind of meaningful work, you’re not going to get that monthly benefit. So that sometimes is a little bit even more expensive as well but something you want to keep in mind.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and unfortunately, navigating the selection of a disability insurance policy isn’t always super easy, just the way these products are sold and the options, the riders you mentioned, the time periods, the elimination periods, and so we’ve got some great resources that we would point you to. Episode 045, we talked about how to determine your disability insurance needs. And then also, if you go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, at the top, you’ll see an option that is “Protect Your Income.” We’ve got some great information about life and disability, which connects you with our partner for both of these, which is PolicyGenius. And I just recently went through this process of purchasing additional disability insurance as well as life insurance, very easy, very transparent, a great process to follow. So make sure to check out those resources if this is something that you need. Alright, Tim Baker, we’re going to take on the, probably the No. 1 question we get from new graduates is, what the heck should I do with my student loans? I’ve got $200,000 of student loan debt, I’ve got all these options available to me. Unfortunately, it’s incredibly confusing, forgiveness and non-forgiveness, federal and private. You know, as you talk with clients and specifically those that are just coming out of pharmacy school, where do you start in terms of this question of determining a student loan payoff strategy?

Tim Baker: Yeah, it can be a monster. You know, it can be a monster topic, a monster thing to kind of wrap your arms around. And you know, a lot of times, I’ll have a pharmacist that will talk to me, and they’ll say, “Hey, this is my situation. What should I do?” And I’m like, “It depends.” You know, it depends. And like I said, I always say that’s the worst answer ever, but it truly does. And there’s so many ways to kind of tackle the student debt. And part of it — the question I would ask first is like, how do you feel about the loans? And you know, it’s probably a question that you know the answer to, but you probably haven’t asked yourself. So you know, if you’re feeling like, meh, the loans are there and I’ll pay them off when I pay them off and it’s kind of like, I view it as like a mortgage debt that I’m just going to pay off over time, and I’m cool with that, versus I can’t sleep at night, it’s a weight on my chest, I get anxiety about this. And these are all like real-world answers that I’ve gotten to that question. That’s going to affect the ultimate strategy, the strategy that you ultimately pick in the end in terms of how to attack the loans. So I think having an inventory, an emotional inventory, of the loans is I think a good first step. But then transitioning to an actual, physical inventory. And I’ll tell you what, like I think back when I first started advising pharmacists on the student debt. And I’d say like, “What do you have?” And they’re like, “I don’t know.” You know? And there was no awareness or there was less awareness than I think that I see more pharmacists that kind of walk in my door — virtual door, I guess — but I think that having a physical inventory of what you have, who you owe, when that starts, is important as well. And then from there, I think you start selecting a strategy that fits your needs and kind of what you want to do, whether it’s a forgiveness strategy, a refinance, like be aggressive with it, which might coincide with refinance. There’s a lot of ways to kind of go about this. I think one of the things that I would be cautious about is really twofold. One, you want to be intentional. You don’t want to get out of school and meander and be like, oh, like I’ll figure it out later because later happens, and you’re still in the same amount of debt that you started with. The second thing is that if you’re working with a professional, if you have six figures worth of debt, and you’re working with a professional that doesn’t understand loans, find a professional that understands loans. There’s so many — so going on another rant — there’s so many young professionals that I talk with, and they say, “Yeah, I’m working with an advisor at Blah, Blah, Blah, and the advice is that the loans will figure themselves out.” And I want to like fall on the floor because literally weekly, we show pharmacists that the path that they’re on could potentially cost them six figures in difference. And I think it’s like, I’m incredulous. I’m incredulous.

Tim Church: Yeah, I mean, I think you make a good point. And I’ll attest to that personally because I was one of those people that made a huge mistake, you know, not pursuing the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program cost me over $100,000. Now, you know, the benefit is that my loans are paid off now, and I can tell other people about it. But you make such a great point that — and I don’t think we can emphasize this enough — is you really have to lay out all of the options that are available to you. And you have to kind of complement those emotions behind the loans with also the math, right? You have to couple those two together to figure out, OK, what is the best plan going to be? And then I think even kind of taking it a step further is when you look at the average student loan debt that a pharmacist has, we’re talking $160,000, which could be a lot more if you go to a private school, is if you’re able to get forgiveness through the Public Service Loan program, then go for it. I mean, the math really makes sense there. And that could actually have a lot to do with the job that you choose or that you ultimately go from your first one.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think this really is the time that we have to emphasize further what Tim Baker just said is it’s about intentionality of choosing an option and a plan. You know, I spoke with a group of probably about 120 students last week, and when we get to this topic, I think what they want often is a slide that I know I wanted as a student, which is the “here’s the best option.” And the reality is when it comes down to these variables like how do you feel about it? What’s the rest of your personal situation? You know, do you work for a qualifying employer or not? You know, what are the interest rates? What’s the goals? What are you trying to achieve? Are you a nontraditional student? All of these factors go into choosing the one best repayment strategy for you as an individual. And that might be different than your classmates and others that are out there. And so I think what we’re really advocating here, especially to those that are coming up on graduation, you’re going to enter the grace period, which is really everything but gracious when we think about interest continuing to accrue during that time period. But using this time so that when that notice comes to you that says, “Hey, by the way, here’s your payment, Johnny,” that you’ve already come and decided upon a plan that is best for your situation. And I think that this concept of intentionality goes well beyond just student loans but empowering yourself and putting yourself in a position that I have done the work, I’ve done the research, and I know that this one option is best for me. And now, you’re on the trajectory to get those paid off or whatever the plan might be around forgiveness as well. I can also speak, Tim Church, as I think about the forgiveness and costing, I think you and I did the calculation the same weekend we were together, but also PSLF-eligible, and as I tell many people, for me, wandering into the standard 10-year repayment plan, keeping my loans at 6.8% was probably the worst thing I could have done. You know, refinancing certainly would have been a better option than what I did, Public Service Loan Forgiveness would have been as well. Alright, so finding a student loan repayment strategy, and credit here to Tim Church, I can’t even count how many resources we have on the website around student loans. We have multiple podcast episodes, we talked about PSLF, we talked about the recent news with PSLF. And if you go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/ultimate, Tim Church wrote the blog post of all blog posts on how do you evaluate the strategy of choosing the best loan repayment option. We’ve got a quick-start guide on student loans, we’ve got calculators.

 

refinance student loans

Tim Baker: We’ve got a quiz.

Tim Ulbrich: Got a quiz. So head on over to the website, YourFinancialPharmacist.com, where you can get started today. Alright, next one we have here as we continue to work through financial moves that every pharmacy graduate should be making is begin the process of investing in your company’s 401k, 403b, or TSP. So Tim Baker, talk us through briefly, if we’re thinking of a new graduate coming out, they start to work for an employer, find out that they have this retirement option, maybe they have a match, maybe they don’t, they’re probably asking themselves the question of, what do I do with this? Where do I begin? And how do I evaluate the balance against debt, emergency fund, and all these other things?

Tim Baker: Yeah, and sometimes, you don’t have to do anything. You know, President Obama was in office when they really started to put forth an auto-enroll feature. So a lot of the psychology behind that was we’re more likely to participate in something if we don’t have to opt into it. It’s more, given the option to opt out, it really pushes participation rates up. So for a lot of retirement plans, you know, you start with a job, and eureka! You’re starting to contribute after maybe a certain period of time, and you’re beginning to see a balance into a 401k, a TSP, a 403b, which is a great thing. And sometimes, you don’t even have to pick the funds yourself. It’s just a target date fund. So what I would say to this is absolutely, if you have access to a 401k or any type of retirement plan, get with your HR department and try to learn as much as you can about them. Sometimes, you’re not going to need to do anything, but the big question that I would ask is, what is the match? And that should be something that you probably should be evaluating as you’re looking at employers. So what is the match? And 9.5 out of 10 times, you should be at least contributing to the match. I don’t care if every other part of your financial house is on fire, most of the time, it’s free money, we talk about it. You want to be contributing up to the match. Now, if you do have, if you’re in a lot of trouble with credit card debt, and it’s almost too much to get out of, that might be a situation where you don’t do that. But at least contribute until you get the match, and then in terms of looking at the funds, that’s less important. It’s time in the market, not necessarily time in the market or picking the individual funds. That’s kind of next-level stuff that I do with clients. But you know, you’re going to want something that’s low-cost in terms of expense. You know, it might be out of the scope of this particular episode, but I would definitely look for things like index funds and that type of thing to really buy the market rather than try to beat the market.

Tim Church: Yeah, and I think Dave Ramsey probably would fundamentally disagree with what we’re saying right now because —

Tim Ulbrich: Is he listening, do you think?

Tim Baker: Maybe.

Tim Church: Because we’re basically saying that most people should be in the match, regardless of your student loan debt. I think one of the caveats is that if you look at the amount of student loans that the typical graduate’s going to have, it’s not going to be a quick fix in one year, two years. I mean, we’re talking this could be a decade-long, maybe a little bit longer or could be a little bit faster, depending on the track you’re on. But the big thing is you can’t go backwards in time and get the match and make up for those years that it was available to you. So I think that’s really big. And then the other point that I would make is depending on what student loan repayment strategy you go in, that if you’re in PSLF and you’re all-in or you’re even doing the non-PSLF forgiveness, you may actually be going way in on your 401k, your 403b, because by doing that, you can actually lower your adjusted gross income, which ultimately will lower your income-driven repayments that you have to make and so you can basically be simultaneously be building some incredible wealth while you’re paying off your student loans.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so that’s kind of like, the next step in terms of an inventory of your loans, selecting a strategy and optimizing that strategy. Really, that’s what we’re talking about here is getting the most out of the strategy and from the forgiveness perspective, the more that you can into those pre-tax buckets that lower your overall adjusted gross income, the better. You’re paying your future self, but then you’re AGI, which lowers your payment and maximizes your forgiveness.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think what we’ve often seen with new graduates, new practitioners, is that evaluating what your options are inside of your retirement plan, you know, we talk about on the podcast about fees and asset allocation and calculating your next egg, and all that can quickly become very overwhelming, but I think your point is such a good one to emphasize. Again, get it started, take the match, begin to build that time for compound interest to work, certainly make an investment to learn more about this. And I’d point here too, we spent a lot of time really detailing — I think it was chapters 12, 13 and 14 of “Seven Figure Pharmacist” — all about investing. We tried to write it in a very fundamental, basic way of understanding the strategy, but just beginning that education, whether it’s “Seven Figure,” the podcast or some other resource, making that commitment to long-term knowledge. And I think investing is one piece. But not letting that component of, hey, I don’t have all the knowledge, be a barrier to start in the first place. OK, the last one I want to talk about before we wrap up here, since we have the king of side hustles here, Tim Church, is for new graduates to be thinking about considering a side hustle. And Tim, you’ve done an awesome job with the podcast, the side hustle series. We’ll link in the show notes to an article, “14 Practical Ways to Make Extra Money as a Pharmacist in 2019.” But why should a pharmacy graduate today be thinking about a side hustle?

Tim Church: It’s a great question. And I think in 2019, a lot of things are changing with pharmacy, in terms of the job market. A lot of pharmacists are experiencing pay cuts because, you know, what’s considered full-time may be cut down to 30-some hours. And so I think that’s one of the things that is why people are getting more excited about this topic, but I think it’s really risky in no matter what job that you have, to really rely on one income source. And I’m not saying that every single person needs to go out and have eight jobs. But I think it’s important to look at other ways to diversify how you’re getting that income. We have a great blog post on there called “14 Practical Ways to Make Extra Money in 2019,” so if you go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com and you click on “Make More Money,” there’s some suggestions there. But a lot of them are pharmacist-related, so really taking the skills and the knowledge that you already have and kind of utilizing that to look for other ways to bring value and eventually bring income. But I think also, one of the things that I would have you consider is really looking at do you have other skills even outside of pharmacy that you can monetize?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I think one of the things that doesn’t get talked about enough with a side hustle is just an opportunity, you know, some of the things could be creative outlets, they could be things that you’re passionate about, and some certainly make more money than others. But you know, what is that worth? And what is that value of having that opportunity to create and to be innovative and to think of some entrepreneurial opportunities? So I would agree, and we won’t get on the career soapbox right now, we’ll save that for a later date. But I think that in 2019, I’m not sure — and at least as long as we’ve been in the profession, you know, for 10-15 years — I’m not sure there’s a better time to be taking some entrepreneurial risk than there is right now. You look at some salary compression, you look at a healthcare market that’s very complex, when you put any of those two together, that means it’s ripe for innovation and entrepreneurship. And so I think we’ve been in a period where pharmacists have been very comfortable in their salary, and I think that often diminishes the need to feel like they need to take some risk, but I think we’re seeing that changing. And while that may be a difficult period, I think there’s some excitement to be had there as well. So again, make sure to head on over to the website, YourFinancialPharmacist.com. As Tim mentioned, we’ve got a section on that about “Make More Money.” We’ve got the side hustle series on the podcast. And the last thing we would mention here is in avoiding lifestyle creep. And we talked about it in Episode 098 of the podcast, but I think it’s just fundamentally important for every graduate, new practitioner and I think in general to be thinking about it. What can you be doing to avoid lifestyle creep? And when we talk about retirement savings and contributions, at the end of the day, your expenses is really what drives much of that. So what can you be doing to live off less than you make and be balancing the things we talked about on that last episode of taking care of your future self but also enjoying some things today?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I think one of the things to highlight here is, you know, there’s probably a lot of people out there that are listening that are saying, “OK, Tim and Tim and Tim, you want me to have a huge emergency fund, and you want me to pay off my credit card debt, and you want me to buy disability insurance. There’s a long laundry list of things that you’re saying I need to do. How am I supposed to do that?” And you know, I think the thing that I enjoy about working with students and residents who are in that transition process is guess what? Like you’re a resident, you’re making $40,000, you’re probably going to be making quite a bit more in the coming months when you kind of transition away from residency. Or if you’re a P4, and you’re going to work for a community pharmacist or whatever that looks like, you’re going to be making more than you’re going to make as a student. So let’s imagine a world where you’re not making $110,000 or $120,000. You’re making $70,000. You’re making $80,000. And these goals and these things that we want to check off become a lot more workable, a lot more manageable. And that really requires some doing. It requires some — what we essentially are doing is stepping into the income. And we’re paying ourself first in the emergency fund, checking off the block with the disability. We’re building that into the budget because what often happens is that we go and we say, man, I’m going to get that large new apartment, I’m going to drive the Beamer, I’m going to do all those things. And then it’s like, oh, I need an emergency fund. Oh, I need to pay $120 a month for my disability policy? And it’s so much harder to go back. So if we can step into it — and this is like, remember when we were talking to USC this time last year, whatever it was, I was like imploring, I was like, this is for you P4s, you know, this is a perfect time to really put a plan together and be intentional and step into the income because it’s so much harder to go backward in that spending behavior.

Tim Church: Yeah, and I think it’s a great opportunity to basically let people know about your services and what you’re doing because I think one of the things that you do really well is you take all of these things and you help break it down for people in a way that’s easy to digest because I think it can be really overwhelming. I mean, I know when I was graduating and trying to figure this out, I didn’t figure it out at first. I made a ton of mistakes, and then it cost me, you know, doing that. So I think if you’re somebody who feels like just overwhelmed with all these different moves that we’re recommending that you make, I think you should definitely reach out to Tim Baker and book a call. See if you guys are a good fit. Not everybody is going to be a good fit, and not everybody needs that extra attention. But if you’re somebody who feels that way or just interested in learning more, I think it’s a great opportunity to do that. And if you want to book a free call, you can do that YFPPlanning.com.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So we’ve covered I think six or so of the 20 financial moves that you talk about in that blog post. Again, we’ll link to that in the show notes. It’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/20. So if you’re a regular listener, maybe you’re not a graduating student, maybe you’re not a new practitioner or a year or two out, do us a favor, share this with somebody that maybe you have somebody, a student on rotation, maybe you know a student, an intern that you work with, but you know, one of the most common things we hear is hey, I wish I would have known these things sooner. And that’s exactly what this list of 20 is all about. So as always, we appreciate you, the YFP community. Thank you so much for taking time to listen. If you like what you heard on this week’s episode of the podcast, please head on over to iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts each and every week, leave us a review. We’d love to have a rating as well. And certainly we hope you will join us on next week’s episode, Episode 100 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.

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Debt Free Story Q&A with Jeff and Alex Keimer

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Debt Free Story Q&A

Jeff and Alex Keimer share their debt free story in this special Q&A format.

Jeff received his PharmD from Albany College of Pharmacy in 2011 and moved to Vermont to pursue a career in retail pharmacy. There, he met Alex, his future wife, who graduated from Cornell with a Master’s in Food Science in 2012. Jeff racked up about $150,000 in student loans and also purchased many items after graduating on his credit card, including the down payment for a brand new Subaru WRX. Alex managed to pay for grad school and accumulated only $50,000 in debt. The couple shares their journey of paying off their student loans, car loan and credit card balance while working toward financial independence.

Jeff, tell us a bit about your background and education and how much you accumulated in debt upon graduating with your PharmD.

I’m originally from the town of Guilderland, NY (a suburb of Albany) and got my PharmD from Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences in 2011. In terms of career, my path has always centered around retail pharmacy. I’ve worked in a retail pharmacy ever since I was in high school and love it. No joke.

During school, I didn’t think about my loans. I knew they were there, but like many of my classmates at the time, I never thought they’d cause a problem since I was “guaranteed” to make the big bucks after graduation. Understand that this was a time where P3’s were getting 5 figure sign on bonuses, so most pharmacy students weren’t worrying about their loans.

All in all, I came out of school with a little over $150,000, which I believe it or not, thought was low. I distinctly remember someone in my class said they were in the $300k club, so I felt like I got out cheap.

Alex, what about you? What type of education do you have and how much debt did you accumulate while in school?

I have a Bachelor’s in Food Science from the University of Delaware and Master’s in Food Science from Cornell. A small portion of my undergrad was paid for by a scholarship and the majority of it was paid for by my parents. I paid for grad school myself and accumulated around $50,000 of debt from it.

Jeff, what was your parents’ or family influence on your money habits?

Growing up, both of my parents started their own businesses and worked from home so they could be there for my sister and I when we got home from school. We were taught a respect for how money was earned but not much was said about how it was managed. When money was tight, I remember my dad saying that we were going on the “austerity budget” and when money was good, we bought things and went on vacation. But, that’s really about it.

Alex, what about you?

I remember both of my parents working a lot. My mother was an accountant and my father was an administrator for a community college in Long Island City. We were always buying things on sale and using coupons. When I would ask my mom why we couldn’t have fancy clothes or why we couldn’t buy a boat like my best friend’s parents, she would say that we save our money so that we can go on vacation. She always stressed the value of experiences over material things. To be fair, we did travel a lot. While most of my friends were having Sweet 16s, my family and I were going to Hawaii. We travelled to California, Europe, and the Dominican Republic, just to name a few.

My mother would always talk about how important it was to save money. She would tell me that you never know what is going to happen in life, so it is important to have a healthy savings. When we were younger, she helped us set up CD’s and savings accounts and we would watch our money grow. This rubbed off on my because when I was in college, I remember her sending me money in the mail with a note saying “use this for something FUN, do not put this in the bank.” She knew that all of the extra cash I had was going in the bank and I was sacrificing time out with my friends.

Jeff, you mentioned to us before that you spent your money on a lot of nonsense as a new practitioner.

Where to start? Well, first I had to deck out my new apartment so I spent several thousand on new furniture. OK, that sounds mildly sensible. How about another grand on a new 3D TV? Another couple thousand on some new firearms? Or, my personal favorite, >$5,000 in a year spent on craft beer? All of it on a credit card that had been carrying a balance since I graduated. Just for good measure, I also bought a brand new Subaru WRX in 2013 that cost around $32k which I financed for the next 5 years. Oh, and lest I forget, I also put the $2,500 down payment for that car on that same credit card since I didn’t actually have any money.

I may not have been great at saving money, but I was a savant when it came to building negative net worth.

With all this debt getting piled on, you would’ve hoped I had a plan to get rid of it. But I didn’t. Even though I was starting to feel the pinch from my student loans, I didn’t have much motivation to get rid of them. I just assumed that they were there and I would have them kicking around for the full 15 years of my payment plan. The credit card was more egregious anyway. But, I managed to give myself a false sense of security about that. I figured that if I was paying more than the minimum on it every month, I was good. Never mind the fact that the balance was growing.

debt free story

Alex, when you and Jeff started to get into a more serious relationship and talked deeper about your financial burdens, what were your feelings about his indebtedness?

I have never held a balance on my credit card and I have never paid a cent of credit card interest. When Jeff told me what kind of balance he was carrying on his credit card, I think the look on my face made it clear that we would not be combining our finances until he got serious about getting rid of that enormous debt. At this point I wasn’t really interested in helping Jeff out. I was pretty much like, “You get your house in order and let me know when you’re good.” It definitely didn’t take him as long as I thought it was going to. Turns out when you have a 6-figure salary and aren’t buying a ton of crap, it’s pretty easy to pay down your debts.

When did you start getting serious about paying this debt off?

I can’t remember the exact time I decided it was time to clean up my act, but I do remember it was as Alex and I were starting to take our relationship to the next level. We were starting to plan a life together and I while I knew she loved me despite my faults, I didn’t want her to have to live with all of them. And, like Alex said before, she really wanted me to get my house in order.

My debts at the time were three-fold: credit card, car loan, and student loans. Since we both knew the credit card represented both the highest interest rate and a monument to my stupidity, I decided that needed to go first. And, I needed to do that on my own.

Jeff, how did you decide that creating a budget was what was needed to pay down your debt?

Just like it’s common sense that getting on a diet and exercise plan is what you need to do to lose weight, I’ve always known that I needed a budget to control my finances. But like many people with wanting to diet or exercise, I chose not to do it since I thought it would be hard. The idea of having to plan out all my spending ahead of time and restricting myself to what I’d planned for just never sounded appealing.

But, I had to do it. At first, I decided to make a traditional type of budget. I made categories and used the Mint app to help me track my spending. This worked to a degree, but I still couldn’t see myself adhering to this type of budget long term. It just felt so foreign to me.

What I was used to was living paycheck to paycheck. So I decided one day to try and make a budget that took that lifestyle and would make it work for me instead of against me. Like all great ideas, I think it came to me in the bathroom. Instead of figuring out how much I have leftover at the end of every month to throw at the debt, why don’t I just send money there first and give myself a smaller paycheck to live off? In the end, I created a budget that’s sometimes referred to as a “reverse” or “pay yourself first” style of budget.

In the months that followed, I was able to get rid of the credit card debt and use the same budget to start saving money for an engagement ring. With Alex’s help (she started packing me lunches) and forgoing the things that I knew were nonsense, adhering to my new budget was relatively painless.

You mentioned to us before that in the marriage process, you and Alex read The 5 Love Languages by Gary Chapman.

Yes, before we got married, the priest we worked with had us read it as part of a premarital course. We ended up reading it to each other rather than on our own which I think was a great way to do it. What we learned was that we shared a lot of common ground when it came to what our love languages are. Quality time, for one, topped both of our lists, and gift-giving was at the bottom. Looking back, I think this realization was what set the stage for the next chapter in our financial journey.

You mentioned that you are pursuing financial independence (FI).

Yes! Shortly after we got married in late 2016, I stumbled on the blog Mr. Money Mustache while doing some internet research on investing. The name sounded ridiculous so I had to check it out. What I found there was pure gold. In that blog, Pete Adeney (aka Mr. Money Mustache), describes how a combination of frugality, hard work, and unconventional retirement planning allowed him to “retire” at the ripe old age of 30 and that early retirement is something anyone living in this country has a shot at. This was my introduction to the financial independence/retire early (FIRE) movement.

While I love being a pharmacist, I love being able to spend more time with Alex. What I read in his blog and others was that making more of that time was entirely possible through financial independence. So for me, I was sold. If this was a way for us to get more out of the finite amount of time we have on this planet, then that’s what I wanted to do.

I plugged our numbers into some of the calculators online and found that if we were able to start maxing out our retirement accounts and tweak our budget a bit, we had a decent shot at financial independence in the next 15 years. Needless to say, Alex was skeptical at first. I clearly remember her saying in a thick Long Island accent, “You don’t know this man on the internet,” and that this all sounded a little far-fetched. But, to her credit, she said that if I wanted to give it a try she would support me.

So I got to work adjusting our budget and adapting it to a higher retirement contribution rate. Thanks to the tax deduction, it wasn’t that hard. Once that was in place, I set our debts in the cross-hairs.

How did you pay off the rest of your non-mortgage debt? What was the total you paid off and how long did it take you to pay it off?

When we decided to get out of debt, we had 3 different debts: my car, the student loans, and a loan we took out to finance a solar array we put on the house. In order to tackle them, I thought it best to go after the highest interest debts first. But before that, let me tell you what went down on November 28th, 2016.

I had been reading Mr. Money Mustache now for a few months and had been coming around to his way of thinking, particularly around cars. The dude hates them but realizes they have a place. That said, the supercharged rally car I was using as a daily driver on paved roads didn’t fit with the overall FIRE mindset I was getting into. It had to go.

So, the morning of November 28th, I got up and started looking online at replacements that were more sensible, but still had a stick shift (not giving that up). I texted Alex that morning telling her that I found a Toyota Corolla for sale across the state that looked like a good deal and wanted to check it out. She said OK and I drove over to the dealership. While there, I did a test drive, negotiated a trade, and signed over my WRX for the Corolla. I got rid of the car debt in a day and felt awesome. Did I forget to talk to Alex before getting a new car? Absolutely. I learned some things about marriage that day.

So with the car debt gone, we decided to go after the student loans. Alex’s loans at this point were a little under $7,000 total, so we used the money saved from our budget over the past year to kill those in one shot. Now, it was time to fight the good fight and get rid of my loans. Using our budget we put money toward the debt with every paycheck.

Over the next 19 months, we got rid of the student debt totaling $105,560.86. Most of it came from those incremental payments with every paycheck. Also, a little over $10k came from cashing out a variable universal life insurance policy that I took out in 2012. Finally, since our budget has us saving money simultaneously, I was able to take money that we had been saving for a new car for Alex to finish them off in June 2018. We bought the car though, so there’s more debt.

After the student loans, our other debts didn’t seem so big. The solar loan only had around $11k and the car loan started out at around $20k. Whatever, they needed to go. So for the rest of the year, we focused on those two debts, clearing them out finally on 12/22/18.

Overall, from the day I sold the car our payoff looked like this:

In the end, with interest payments (not reflected above), the total amount paid toward debt was $138,017.37 from November 28, 2016, to December 22, 2018.

Amazingly, we didn’t really feel deprived throughout the whole process. We still went out to eat and still went on vacations. Even though we were putting a huge amount toward debt, we didn’t feel it much since we did everything we could to optimize our expenses. Not having my car payment and replacing the life insurance policy were huge (~$800/month), but so were little things like getting rid of cable (~$75/month), sharing streaming services with family, and preparing meals ahead of time. We also tried our hand out at travel hacking which has been quite lucrative.

Now that you are debt-free, how do you feel?

When people say that getting rid of debt is like having a giant weight lifted, they’re not kidding. Getting rid of our debts, particularly the student loans, has been incredible. It’s even me more joy at work knowing that I’m not chained to my paycheck and has given us the ability to be more flexible in our career paths.

As far as near-future financial goals are concerned, we would like to get rid of the PMI on our mortgage this year, continue to maximize contributions to our retirement accounts, and possibly buy a rental property. In the end, we’re going for financial independence, so keeping our savings rate high is what we plan to do for the long haul.

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YFP 098: Lifestyle Creep: The #1 Threat to Growing Your Net Worth

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Lifestyle Creep: The #1 Threat to Growing Your Net Worth

Tim Baker, Tim Church and Tim Ulbrich talk through avoiding lifestyle creep, a simple but powerful philosophy for achieving wealth.

Summary

Tim Baker, Tim Church and Tim Ulbrich are in-person due to a quarterly YFP retreat for the recording of this episode. They talk about how to avoid lifestyle creep, something many new practitioners face.

Tim Church begins the episode by sharing an anecdote of a coworker, Serena. Serena was a residency trained pharmacist who had a great career, as well as a side job, and made $140,000 a year. She drove a Mercedes Benz, had a nice house, went on the best vacations, and ate at nice restaurants. It appeared like Serena had everything together financially, but she expressed to Tim Church that she was going into foreclosure on her home. When her hours were cut from her second job, she couldn’t pay all of her bills.

Tim Baker dives into becoming balance sheet affluent instead of income affluent. Income affluent means that your salary or income is good, but the money that comes in goes right back out. He explains that many pharmacists have the notion that because they will be making 6 figures, they don’t have anything to worry about in regards to their debt. However, a shift to being balance sheet affluent must occur, meaning growing your assets and net worth.

Tim Ulbrich explains that there are two reasons pharmacists feel like they are living paycheck to paycheck, despite making a great income. Lifestyle creep is a main reason and is caused by present bias and comparison to others. Present bias, as Tim Church explains, refers to the tendency to favor what is happening today or tomorrow versus several years from now. Tim Baker sees present bias affecting clients as it’s hard to picture yourself 10, 20 or 30 years older, but stresses the importance of placing yourself on a success timeline to envision what success looks like to you in the future. To combate present bias, things like automation can be effective.

The other factor affecting lifestyle creep is comparison to others. Tim Ulbrich explains that this can be subtle, but it’s impactful. Some items or experiences will temporarily bring you happiness, but it’s important to look at what a wealthy life is to you and work toward that without trying to be or emulate what you see others purchasing or doing.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, episode 098. We’re two episodes away from episode 100. We’ve got some exciting things planned, which is going to be a lot of fun. But here we are, live in Columbus, Ohio, at the Ulbrich household. We’re going to talk about avoiding lifestyle creep, what we think is the #1 barrier to new pharmacy graduates achieving long-term financial wealth. So what’s it like? Here we are, Columbus, Ohio, live in person.

Tim Baker: Yeah, checking out the new digs since you moved to Ohio State. So last time, we were in Rootstown, Ohio.

Tim Church: Wait. Correction. It’s The Ohio State.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh boy.

Tim Baker: Sorry. I am a Buckeye fan, so I should know better. Yeah, I mean, lots going on. I feel like every time, every time we get together, and we get together — what? Quarterly? There’s just so much to talk about, so much to do. Just a lot of juice and buzz around I think kind of where the brand is headed and yeah, I always get so jacked up about meeting with you guys.

Tim Ulbrich: I think it’s going to be a fun episode. And we’ve got a great one coming for you next week as well. We’re going to talk about financial moves that we think every new pharmacy graduate should be making. Great time of year, obviously, graduation right around the corner. But here, we’re going to talk about this idea of avoiding lifestyle creep. But also, we have to mention, this is the first time we’re doing some video on the podcast as well. So while we haven’t yet done so, make sure to check our brand new YouTube. I don’t know if we even have a subscriber yet, but we’re going to build that up over time.

Tim Church: I don’t think we have any.

Tim Ulbrich: So you’ll be seeing more video from us, that’s a Tim Church goal in 2019. And so here we are, in person, live in video. I kind of feel like an old man a little bit, not going to lie. I think it’s — Joe Rogan and Elon Musk are smoking weed on their podcasts. And we’re drinking coffee like old men.

Tim Church: From a Dr. Juice mug.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, from a Dr. Juice mug. Yes.

Tim Baker: Mine has brown in it. Brown coffee. Not brown liquor.

Tim Ulbrich: Alright, so Tim Church, let’s start about just this concept of barriers to a net worth mindset. And as we think about avoiding lifestyle creep, and I think in the book “Seven Figure Pharmacist,” you had a really neat story that really highlighted and I think sets a tone for this topic, and that was about a pharmacist named Serena. So tell us a little bit more about Serena and some of the background and into the concept of lifestyle creep.

Tim Church: Sure. So when we talked in the book about Serena, she was a pharmacist in her 30s, and she was doing extremely well in her career. She was residency-trained, had an amazing job, and she even had a side job working at another pharmacy. So she was making a lot of money. She was making about $140,000 a year, and that was even a couple years ago, which was way beyond what the median pharmacist’s salary was. So if you look at kind of her lifestyle and what she had going on, she drove a really nice car. I think she had a Mercedes Benz. She had a nice house, and she always dressed well, went on the best vacations, went out to nice restaurants. So on the outside, it really looked like she had everything together with her financial picture. But the reality was is that one day, she knew I was working with some personal finance and working with YFP, and she asked to talk to me about her personal situation. And basically what she expressed to me was that she was going to go in foreclosure with her home. And I just let that sink in for a minute. I just thought, wow. She’s making $140,000 a year. She’s a pharmacist, so obviously she’s very intelligent, knows a lot about pharmacy. But she didn’t really know that much about personal finance. And she was in a situation when her second job hours were cut, she was no longer able to make all of the payments that she had. She not only had a mortgage, but she had student loans, she had credit cards, she had her car payment. So she had all these payments going on, and then basically once that job was gone, she wasn’t able to make those.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim Baker, when I hear that story of Serena, I think of “The Millionaire Next Door” and “The Next Millionaire Next Door,” you know, in their most recent book, really outlines this concept of being income affluent versus balance sheet affluent. And when I hear Serena’s story, which is true I think for many pharmacists — no judgment, something that I struggled with as well — but making a good income but is that income actually converting into long-term financial success? So tell us a little bit about that concept of income affluence relative to balance sheet affluence.

Tim Baker: Yeah. So I mean, I guess the first thing when I hear a story like that is that I look at Serena’s case, and even though she’s in a tough situation, I respect the fact that for a very intimate subject like finance, that you’re willing to lay the cards on the table and be vulnerable. In a position like a pharmacist or someone who is very highly educated, sometimes, it’s really hard to like say, “I don’t really know what I’m doing,” or “Maybe the people or ideas that I’ve surrounded myself with aren’t necessarily the right way to go about it.” So one of the things that I really try to impress upon clients is really shifting that mindset from income statement affluent to balance sheet affluent. So essentially, you know, in the case of Serena, the income statement affluent, that would describe her, someone who the top line revenue is coming in. $140,000, we understand that that’s well above the average household income in the United States. But nothing’s sticking. It’s all a sieve. You know, the money that comes in goes right out. So — and I think part of the problem that we see from the issues that we see is that pharmacists buy into that. It’s like, hey, my worries are going to be all gone when I start making that income, and I have nothing to worry about. And I think one of the things that we are trying to key in on is the well, not so fast — if I use my Lee Corso impression — not so fast with that. So I think it’s shifting the mindset to balance sheet affluent where, you know, money comes in. Income is the lifeblood of the financial plan. But what actually sticks is growing those assets and minimizing those liabilities and growing that net worth over time so the balance sheet grows over time instead of money coming right in and right out. So I think having that mindset — and I’ve seen clients that make $140,000, $240,000, and be very much income statement affluent where it goes in and it goes right out, and I’ve seen clients that make $40,000 or $50,000 and be wealthier relative to that comparison because they just get the fact that hey, I’m going to pay myself first. I’m not going to take on consumer debt, which is very predatory. I’m going to be intentional about my student debt. So I think it’s a mindset that we’ll probably talk about FOMO and YOLO a little bit later. It’s so hard to, you know, not compare yourself to others and think that that’s normal. And you know, “The Millionaire Next Door,” when he studies millionaires, the millionaires aren’t the people you would think are millionaires. A lot of that consumerism, it’s really facade. It’s a house of cards, Tim Church. So you know, it’s important to be aware of that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, this hits home for me. As I think back to the journey Jess and I took is 2012 was really the pivot year for us. I graduated in 2008, did a residency in 2009. 2012, as I look back on that journey, had earned about $500,000 of income, but I had a net worth of -$225,000. I mean, it’s just a classic example of income’s coming in the door, but it’s not being converted.

Tim Baker: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: And we talk about this all the time on the podcast, when we’re doing presentations, a pharmacist’s income is an incredible tool. But that tool has to be put to work towards paying down your debts, growing your long-term savings, building income protection plan, and certainly lifestyle creep and what we’re talking about here today I think plays so much into that.

Tim Church: And I think what we are talking about is it’s going to be normal coming out of pharmacy school for most people to have a negative net worth. I mean, that’s, unfortunately, the reality for most people when they start out. But I think what’s more important is looking at that and looking at the change over time. You know, how much year to year is that net worth growing, trying to get to the balance sheet affluence?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that’s one of the things I like when we talk about the financial plan with you, Tim Baker, is net worth is top of mind all the time, right? So I know when Jess and I log onto the platform that you use, front and center, net worth, what’s growing over time? And I think that that’s a great indicator of your overall financial health.

Tim Baker: When we were tooling around Columbus today, I kind of went on a big rant, so there’s Tim Ulbrich in the driver’s seat, Tim Church in the passenger seat, and Tim Baker in the back like a little kid ranting. I’m like, “Why don’t more financial planners look at net worth? Like why isn’t that a thing?” And I think it’s because the industry is so focused on product and investments and things like that that it’s — I don’t get it. It was kind of a rant that I was going on. I don’t understand why that isn’t more of a measurement that financial planners use to help clients show progress and really value. I don’t know — to me, again, income is — our jam at YFP Planning is really how can we help you, the client, grow and protect income, which is the lifeblood of the financial plan, and grow and protect net worth, which is what sticks, while keeping your goals in mind? And to me, like anything outside of that, like I don’t get. Investments and insurance, it’s important, but it’s part of what feeds into all that. So yeah. Rant over.

Tim Ulbrich: That was a rant. And you know, normally I have three kids ranting in the back of my minivan. And today, it was Tim Baker ranting in the back of the car.

Tim Baker: Yeah, sorry about that.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim Church, let’s talk about Parkinson’s law because I think that’s so much of this concept of lifestyle creep is Parkinson’s law. So what is that? And how does that play into pharmacists and ultimately, this concept here?

Tim Church: So this is a well known principal, and it’s been applied to many different areas. But initially, this was expressed as essentially, the work will expand for the amount that you have available. In other words, however long you have to get a task or something done, that’s how long it’s going to take. And I think probably many pharmacists and students out there can relate to that based on when you have an exam or when you have an assignment or a project due that sometimes, people will procrastinate. That’s just human behavior to normally do that. But the reality is that concept and that principal has been applied to many other areas. It’s been applied to eating and even whatever is on your plate or whatever you have in front of you, that’s what you’re going to eat.

Tim Baker: Small plates versus big plates.

Tim Church: Yeah. I think there was actually a study in I think it’s the book “Switch” by Dan and Chip Heath, and they talked about, they were doing an experiment about people going to the movie theater. And they wanted to see what their behavior was based on how much popcorn they gave them. And what they found was they gave people old popcorn, fresh popcorn and it didn’t even matter. It mattered how much they actually put in the size of the bucket in terms of how much they had to eat. But I think that concept really is exactly what we’re talking about here is that lifestyle creep is that tendency to spend whatever you make and even go above and beyond that. And I think that’s where we see a lot of famous people out there that they’re even in really high amounts of debt, despite making millions or even billions.

Tim Baker: Expenses rise to the level of your income. Right? So and I think we see this in lottery winners too is a lot of people will say, “Oh, I wish I made — my worries would be over if I could make 25% more.” But the science says that you’re going to spend 25% more. We see it even with tax refunds. Some people spend that even before it comes in the door. So you know, and this is why when we go through the foundation of the financial plan, it’s like, this is why budgeting is so important because we have kind of limits. We have a plan. It’s not intentional. I know that we’re talking about the podcast and coming up on episode 100, Parkinson’s Law was real for me to get the podcast edited early on. If I knew that we had a Thursday deadline, and I was running around with my hair on fire with clients and things like that, I would take all that time, sometimes more if you go back. Now we have Caitlyn, who’s awesome and keeps us on deadline.

Tim Ulbrich: Rockstar.

Tim Baker: But yeah, it’s a real thing. It’s absolutely a real thing.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think this really speaks to probably one of the most common things that we hear is “I feel like I’m living paycheck to paycheck, despite making a great income.” And you know, that’s getting pressed even further right now as we see some salary compression happening, the job market shifting a little bit, and so obviously lifestyle creep I think is more relevant than ever to pharmacists today and to pharmacy graduates today. So we’re hoping to capture those that are getting ready to graduate here in the next month, those that are still out even transitioning, never too late, but trying to do everything you can to lower those expenses and prevent that creep. So really, two big reasons why lifestyle creep occurs: present bias and the comparison to others. Let’s talk first about present bias. What is that concept? And how does that relate to lifestyle creep?

Tim Church: So present bias is really the tendency to favor what is happening today versus what is happening tomorrow or several years down the road. There’s a concept that’s also been described as hyperbolic discounting where we discount things that are going to happen in the future or that we anticipate that are going to happen. So it sort of makes sense that we want to enjoy ourselves today, whether that be with clothes, with purchases, with going out to eat. That’s the reality of kind of what’s happening there.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim Baker, from the financial planning perspective, the concept of present bias, I mean, how do you see this play into reality each and every day while you’re working on a client with the financial plan? And what are some of the strategies that you use in helping them combat some of the aspects?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you know, it’s so hard for us to really empathize with or really even picture our 30-year-older self. Right? So it’s hard for us to kind of get into that mindset. So one of the things when we talk about goals is really to lay out like what’s the path? What’s the success timeline, we call it? So Tim Church, you’re my client, I say, “Hey, Tim Church. What I want you to do is let’s get into my imaginary time machine.” So we get into the Delorean and we hit the dial for April 2021. We get out of the Delorean, you’re two year older, you’re two years wiser. What does success look like? And you know, we do that for five years, we do that for 10 years. And it’s hard. And at first, when I would do this practice, it’s like pulling teeth almost. It’s just hard for us. And the further out we get, the more it’s like that image of ourselves fades. I can envision myself at — let’s see, I’m 36 — I can envision myself at 38. Can I envision myself at 41? Maybe. At 46? No. But that’s kind of the exercise that I started to do is I would start to put you in that age. So I would say, you know, now you’re 10 years older and 10 years wiser. And at 46, these are all the things that kind of come into my mind that I want to achieve. So I kind of backwards plan it, and I try to transport you into that time and place. But it’s hard. It’s hard. And the further out it is, the more that we discount it. And I feel like what I say is, again, we’re trying to help grow and protect income, grow and protect net worth, while keeping your goals in mind. And if we don’t feel the push and pull between taking care of yourself today and your 30-year-older self, we’re probably doing something wrong. So it can’t just be about pedal to the metal, spend, spend, spend today, and we’ll just worry about it later on.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Tim Baker: But it also can’t be stick your head and achieve a $10 million net worth for a purpose without enjoying your boys growing up or whatever that is. So it’s threading that needle, and how do you do that?

Tim Church: Well, that’s what I was going to ask you. So when you’re walking through this exercise with your clients, you know, obviously this is one of the biggest points that comes up with how you manage your money, right? Because these decisions, these micro-decisions that are being made are having a compound effect over time. So when you’re assessing clients’ situations, how do you ensure that both of those things are happening simultaneously?

Tim Baker: I think at the end of the day, it’s just asking good questions and getting the (bleep) out of the way. In reality, I joke around about that. But I think that’s what it is and really have the client or clients kind of have a period of self-discovery. And sometimes it’s not like a “Eureka!” moment. It’s a process. It’s a conversation. It’s, “Hey, we kind of left it at this. Did you guys mull it around? Where are we at with it? What’s the update?” And I think having a forum, an open forum for partners or really one-on-one to be able to talk through those issues becomes, it lays out a path for you. But it’s not like — it’s the same thing as like, should I invest? Or should I pay down debt? It depends. It’s kind of the same thing. And it’s a process. And you know, it’s not going to be a binary, this is what you should do.

Tim Church: Right. And I think that that’s one of the key concepts is that a lot of these things in terms of whatever the financial position one is currently in at the moment could be a culmination of habits that have manifested over time.

Tim Baker: Right. Compound effect.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Tim Church: So it’s not just the individual decisions that come up. I mean, somebody could be used to spending x amount on restaurants, on clothes and things like that, month after month after month, and that’s just kind of the normal. And I’m sure that that’s probably sometimes hard to discuss with clients that you have to really take a hard look at that budget and what percentage of that is going towards your net worth?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think this is a good time too to talk about what can you do to be combating present bias, right? What can you be doing in your plan each and every month to actually take some steps forward if this is something that you’re struggling with? And I think for me, this comes to the concept of automation a little bit in your financial plan.

Tim Baker: Yeah, get out of your own way.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, get out of your own way. And when I think about — there’s just a natural human behavior that if you go out and spend money, name the thing you like to enjoy, it’s a rush, right? I mean, I love buying books. I love shopping. I love doing lots of things. And that is things that you get positive feelings. That is a natural human behavior. Me stashing away an amount of money for 40 years in the future in my 401k, like dopamine surge does not happen, right? It’s just not as exciting. I mean, there’s maybe a few people that are listening —

Tim Baker: But isn’t that the one example, though, where it’s fairly automated for everyone? Especially with auto-enroll these days. Because that’s what I was just thinking when you brought that up is when you talked about automation, for most people, when they start a job these days and they have a 401k, their employer is going to automatically enroll them into a 401k. So you are completely on the sideline. You really don’t have to do anything. You don’t even have to pick the investment. You’re probably going to be defaulted into a target fund. So the fact that you’re kind of sitting on the sidelines, but then you wake up in five years, and there’s $100,000 there or whatever it is, like that’s kind of what we’re talking about. But to do it even more deeply in your financial plan with regard to other types of savings. That’s what it is. I mean, that’s a perfect example of getting out of your own way. You know, it’s so true with a lot of parts of the financial plan, sometimes, the more you tinker, the more that you screw it up.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think this is — we talked about this in Episode 057, so for those that want to go back and listen.

Tim Church: How do you remember these episodes?

Tim Ulbrich: I don’t know, I spent a little bit of time memorizing them.

Tim Baker: I don’t.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, episode 057 on automation and we have a blog post on it as well. But for those of you that want to think about how to automate the plan and what that could look like, and we talk about sinking funds and buckets, but I think the essence of it is get out of your way. Set the plan, be intentional, and get out of the way.

Tim Church: Yeah, you have to protect yourself from yourself.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Tim Baker: Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: So present bias, No. 1. The second thing is this concept of comparing to others. So not a new concept, comparing yourself with neighbors, keeping up with the Joneses, you name it. Obviously, I think for pharmacists, that’s a very real thing. So Tim Baker, talk to me about that. Is that something you see with clients? This comparison to other pharmacists or peers and this need to keep up financially in whatever way?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I think so. You know, it might not be as overt of like, hey, my buddy just got this car. I want one too. But I think it’s always there. I mean, comparison is the enemy of content. So I think any time that you’re not doing you, and you’re worried about what everyone else is doing — I sound like my dad — you’re going to run into some problems. Because there’s always going to be someone out there that’s more athletic than you, taller than you, smarter than you. And I think if you get caught up in that, you know, you’re never going to be satisfied. And it’s so true with money as well. And the problem is in a world where we’re so connected with social media and we’re running our highlights on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram, it’s a problem because we want to — there’s the Fear of Missing Out and You Only Live Once and all those concepts which you want to make sure that you’re living an enriched life, but you want to make sure you’re living your wealthy life, which sounds cliche, but maybe for some people, traveling the world is not a thing that they really aspire to. Or maybe someone doesn’t want to retire at age 50 or whatever it is or buy a luxury car. But sometimes, we get caught up in what everyone’s doing, and our own values, our own beliefs depend on — what is the saying? Like you’re the average of the five people that are closest to you. And you know, they obviously are going to affect your exercise habits, your eating habits, your spending habits. And I think those are just things to be hyper-aware of because the reality is, again, to go back to it, the people that from a financial perspective, that are typically the wealthiest and most content are socially indifferent to those things. And it’s one of the things that, you know, as a wealth-building factor for “Millionaire Next Door” is they can — I’m going to say it again — they could give a (bleep) what you’re driving, where you’re going, that type of thing. And they’re focused on their own financial plan and their own vision of what a wealthy life is, and that’s it.

Tim Church: And I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that sometimes when we play that out and we have that comparison to others and what they’re doing, is that we think to ourselves that if we are able to do some of these things that other people are doing, to buy these purchases, to go on these vacations, that that’s automatically going to increase happiness level. And I think that’s the biggest misnomer that comes along with it. Now, of course, some of those things will, and it may be a temporary boost in happiness, but it may not be exactly what you were looking for.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I think the other thing to is I see is pharmacists or young couples will come to me, and I’ll say, oftentimes when the pharmacist speaks with me, they share that they’re overwhelmed with student debt or some other type of debt. And they’re like, yeah, that’s me. And they start to like tiptoe into how much they actually owe. And I’m like, “Hit me with it. I’ve seen it all. So just tell me.” And you know, it might be like between the two of them, they might have $400,000 in debt. And when I — so I’m taking notes, and I write it down, and I think they’re waiting for a reaction. And I’m not going to give it to them. But what I say to them after we kind of go through the conversation about the debt and how they feel about it is, I say, “In a way, it’s all relative.” Because I have some clients that come on, and they have $800,000 in debt. I have some that come on that have $0, and they actually have a positive net worth. And I think that goes into this is like, if you’re comparing yourself to others — and you know, not everyone is in the same place financially. But we want to put ourselves there, and I think it’s just really, in my opinion, it’s really sitting down and asking yourself, what truly is a wealthy life? Not what your parents think, not what your neighbor thinks. Like what do you think is a wealthy life? And work towards that. Be intentional about that. And you know, it’s something that we tell Olivia, like why did you do this at school? And she’s like, “Well, it’s because everyone else was doing it.” And I’m like, “No, bro. Like come on.”

Tim Ulbrich: That’s not a good reason.

Tim Baker: Yeah. That’s not a thing. So she’s 4, we’re working on it. But it’s a lifelong struggle. Like I do the same thing.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. Absolutely.

Tim Baker: Small business owner, like I want to make sure the business is growing and have the things that owning your business affords, but it’s also like when you go down that path, you’re like, I’ve got to stop. Because it’s not productive.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, and I think it can be so subtle, and I think the impact of it happening can be subconscious. And you know, like what you said, just a reminder of we tend to follow the behaviors and patterns of those that we’re closest with, you know, your inner circle. And really taking a step back to say, is that true for you? And are you aware of that and what’s happening? So really evaluating the impact of your neighborhood and evaluating the impact of your coworkers and your friends. And changing the point of comparison. I was talking with the students last week at Ohio State, and I think often in the pharmacy profession, it’s very easy to play the pharmacist-to-pharmacist peer comparison game. And you see this so much with residency. You know, “Hey, I’m making $45,000 in residency. And my friend I sat next to for three years in therapeutics is making $120,000. Life sucks, so I’m just going to keep riding my loans out, and I’ll work on it in five years and kind of woe is me.” But I think if you take a step back, you know, the median household income in the United States for a family of four is about $55,000 a year. So if you’re a resident, single, making $45,000, and you change that point of perspective, how does that alter how you begin to think about your financial plan each and every week? So finding people that can come around you to encourage you with that, that will be on that journey with you to hold you accountable to live the wealthy life, plan for the future but also have fun today, and maybe that means a financial coach and a planner that can help you along in that journey as well. But I think the point is certainly real.

Tim Baker: And I think that’s where we hopefully think that YFP fits. You know, we talk about empowering a community, surrounding yourself with like-minded people. That’s what we want this community to be is that, you know, kind of example of like, hey, there’s other people like me that are struggling with a question about their finances or just the direction in general. And I think that’s healthy conversation, that’s productive conversation, and I think being open — and really, I think one of the things you said is how do you combat it? It’s almost like challenge everything. When we talk with clients that have more or less a spending problem and their credit card, challenge every assumption. We live in a society that’s like, well, I need this. I need that. And like do you? Do you really need it? So challenge it from the bottom up. Obviously, we need clothing and housing and food and all that kind of stuff, but I think approaching it from a very basic level and then working from there is a good way to approach it.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think hearing you talk about community is a great reminder of just what we’re trying to do is empower and build a community that is helping one another. And to be honest, without getting too sentimental, we’re going to talk about this in Episode 100, but that is what is most rewarding for us is seeing that community thrive and help one another. So if you’re not yet a part of the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group, please join us. We’d love to have you in the community. And we certainly think you have something to offer to our community. But we hope that that group is there for you as well. Before we wrap up, just a reminder, if you like what you heard on this week’s episode or you’ve been following the podcast for some time, please head on over to iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts each and every week and leave us a review. We’d love to get your feedback and a comment as well. And again, next week, we’re going to come back and talk about financial moves that we think the pharmacy graduate should be making and things to be looking out for, and then we’ll be following that up with episode 100. Have a great rest of your week.

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