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A Crash Course in 401k Planning (Part 2): An Intro to Stocks, Bonds, and Funds

Posted on by yfpadmin

A Crash Course in 401(k) Planning (Part 2): An Intro to Stocks, Bonds, and Funds

The following is a guest post from Dr. Jeffrey Keimer. Dr. Keimer is a 2011 graduate of Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences and pharmacy manager for a regional drugstore chain in Vermont. He and his wife Alex have been pursuing financial independence since 2016.

You got your diploma, passed your boards, and landed that job. You’ve gotten your first big paycheck. Maybe you bought something ridiculous with it. All in all though, you feel like you’re adulting pretty well at this point. So, one morning you decide to make a cup of coffee and do something truly adult: log in to your retirement plan for the first time.

At first, things go pretty well. You make a username. You make a password that makes you laugh a bit. Once you’re in, a dashboard says you have a little over a grand invested! Sweet! But you’re just a bit curious, what is it invested in? You scroll over to the link titled “Investment Options” and click it. The page loads.

confused britney spears GIF

Expense Ratios!? Large Cap!? Prospectus!? These aren’t real words!

But they are.

Even though being responsible for your own retirement seems like a daunting task (it is), understanding what you are investing your money in doesn’t have to be. In this post, part 2 of our series on 401k planning, we’re going to talk about the investment products you’re most likely to find in your retirement plan: mutual funds, index funds, target date funds and exchange traded funds. But before we can get into that, we need to talk about the types of financial assets (securities) they’re made of: stocks and bonds.

Stocks

Stocks (aka equities) are your opportunity to become a part owner of a business. By purchasing a portion of a business, known as a share, you have equity in that business, which entitles you to some of that business’s profits. Those profits come to you through an increase in the value of the share you purchased, known as capital gains, or through a direct distribution known as a dividend. Taken together, capital gains and dividends give you, the investor, a return on the money you invested in shares of the company.

For the most part, owning stocks is the main way most people grow wealth through investing in financial assets. Over long periods of time, the potential to grow your wealth by investing in the stock market far exceeds your potential to grow it in something like a bank savings account.

However, there is a trade off.

Unlike a savings account, where the balance will never go down, the value of your investment in a stock (your principal) can go down. Sometimes with a drastic decrease and for no good reason! Don’t believe me? Let’s talk about Snapchat.

From Bloomberg, 2/22/2018:

“In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3 Billion of SNAP’s Market Value”

That day, if you held shares of Snapchat (ticker symbol SNAP), they would’ve lost 6% of their value in a day from something as small as a tweet from a member of the Kardashian clan. That wasn’t even the worst single day drop for a stock that year! Facebook took the crown for 2018 (and history) with a 12% loss in a day which eroded almost $120 BILLION from their market value. For perspective, that’s almost the entire GDP of Ukraine lost in one day.

But what does all that mean? I thought stocks were supposed to be awesome. Well, over the long term, they can be. But over the short term, they carry substantial risk in the form of ups and downs to share price known as volatility. And, in the case of individual stocks, share prices can actually go to zero if the company goes out of business (cue Enron).

Bonds

Bonds belong to a group of assets known as fixed income. When you buy a bond, you’re not buying ownership but are instead buying debt. Bonds offer you the opportunity to collect interest from someone else, just like Navient gets from you.

In the world of bonds, money is made primarily from the interest you collect, known as yield. For a typical bond investor, this yield is meant to provide a steady source of income and predictable return on investment.

But again, there’s a trade off.

In general, when you take less risk by investing in bonds, there’s generally less opportunity for growth. Over long periods of time, the difference in growth can be monumental.

Bond investing does have its own risks, though, as they also experience volatility.

When interest rates change, bond prices change. This is because when you buy a bond at one interest rate and the interest rate changes the next day, you need to reprice your bond accordingly to make it marketable for sale to other investors. In short, when interest rates rise bond prices go down. And, when rates drop, bond prices go up.

Your bond can also lose value if the people you’re lending money to fail to pay up (they default) or there’s a perceived risk of them doing so. This will drive up the interest rate on the bond and lower the value of the bond you hold. With the exception of US Treasury bonds, this type of risk (credit risk), is said to apply to all bond investments.

Mutual Funds

So with all the risks associated with stocks and bonds, how do you stand a fair shot at making money over the long term? You work in a pharmacy, not a hedge fund. Thankfully, the financial services industry came up with a solution for the layperson a long time ago: the mutual fund.

With a mutual fund, you outsource the job of picking stocks and bonds to people that know what they are doing (or at least, say they know what they’re doing). These funds collect investor money and invest it according to a strategy that they lay out in a statement called a prospectus.

Aside from reducing risk by investing in multiple stocks or bonds (diversification), mutual funds can also make it much easier for you to choose what you want to invest in. Just like how learning drug classes instead of individual drugs made pharmacy school a lot easier, mutual funds make investing easier by breaking the wide world of stocks and bonds into categories called asset classes. For stocks, funds will typically focus on company size (market cap) and investment style (growth vs. value). And, for bonds, credit worthiness and term (length of bond repayment) are the main factors.

So by now we’ve established that mutual funds make investing easier by helping you with diversification and grouping securities into asset classes. So what’s the catch?

Well, there’s a big one: fees.

Since you’re outsourcing the legwork of investing to someone else, they need to get paid right?

But what’s a fair price?

Should you pay them upfront?

Over time?

What about when you cash out?

Well, depending on the fund, you might get hit all 3 ways. And, if you’re not careful, these fees can make a massive difference in your success as an investor. So what do they look like? For that, let’s look at a really bad fund which shall not be named (fake ticker symbol: FTNBN) and it’s snapshot from the site Morningstar.

Compared to most mutual funds out there, the fees on this fund are really high but, for the sake of argument, let’s say you want to invest $10k in this fund. If you were to give these people your money, you’d find yourself $575 poorer in an instant from their sales load. OK…but they are going to make me money in the long run and “beat the market”, right? Wrong!

If you put your money in this fund 20 years ago, not only did its managers fail to beat the market (measured by the S&P 500 index), but you actually lost money over this time period. How? Poor management probably played a role, but you can be sure the ongoing fees they were charging were the main culprit.

You see, that number called the expense ratio is the amount they take out of your investment every year for the privilege of having your money in the fund. If you were in this fund, you were paying a whopping $551/yr for every $10k you had invested with them. The fund managers don’t just get this money when the fund does well; they get it regardless.

You, the investor, just get bigger losses and smaller gains.

Imagine if this fund charged the 3rd type of fee, the redemption fee, where they actually charge you another percentage of whatever you take out. Ridiculous!

To be fair, this fund was one of the most egregious I could find. Many funds today do not charge sales loads or carry heavy expense ratios. But, chances are, they would if it weren’t for a man named Jack Bogle and a crazy idea he had back in the ‘70s.

Index Funds

Remember how I mentioned that fund above failed to beat the S&P 500 index? They’re not alone. It turns out the majority of funds that rely on professionals actively picking stocks don’t beat their benchmark indexes. This is as true today as it was back in the 1970s when Jack Bogle, the founder of Vanguard, decided to open the world’s first S&P 500 index fund.

The premise was simple. If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em.

Instead of relying on “active” stock picking, his fund would simply track the S&P by investing in every company within the index proportional to their size, a process called “passive management.” This did two things:

1. Gave investors a diverse basket of US stocks

2. Cut down on costs since he didn’t have to hire stock pickers

That last one was a game changer. The success of Bogle’s index fund set off an arms race in the fund industry to lower investor costs. So much so that today you can even invest in some of these funds for free. No load, no expense ratio, nothing. Free. Heck yes!

And it’s likely you have some of these funds in your retirement plan!

But wait, there’s more! Not only are they cheap, they make picking investments easier. When investing in index funds, or indexing as it’s called, all you are looking for is an index to track and a cheap fund to do it. Want to own every publicly traded company on the planet? There’s a fund for that. What if you want to target only real estate investment trusts (REITs)? Yeah, you can do that, too! What about bonds? Yes, there are indexes out there with funds you can buy, too. With index funds, it’s easy to make a portfolio that invests in the mix you want.

But, believe it or not, things can get even simpler.

Target Date Funds

Also known as lifecycle funds, target date funds are a lazy investor’s dream. Chances are, you might be invested in one of these already and not even know it. Many retirement plans have an auto enrollment that puts a percentage of your income into a target date fund as the default investment strategy.

Traditionally, as you get closer to retirement you want to shift your portfolio from more risky assets such as stocks into safer assets such as bonds. While this is a pretty straightforward process, many people are uncomfortable with making changes to their nest eggs themselves. So uncomfortable, in fact, that many people hire someone else to do this for them and pay them an ongoing fee. The mutual fund industry took note, and because they also liked money, worked on a solution they could keep in house.

Their bright idea? The target date fund (TDF).

Basically, a mutual fund company markets a number of funds with names looking like this:

As you can see, there’s a date in the name. All you have to do is pick a fund with a date that best matches when you plan to retire, give that fund money, and…go do something else. Maybe brew some beer. You’re done playing money manager.

How?

A TDF is designed to be an all-in-one, set it and forget it, type of product. Over time, the makeup of the fund (its asset allocation) will shift automatically into a mix that’s more appropriate for your expected retirement date using a formula called a “glide path.” To do this, a TDF is typically comprised of other mutual funds and the TDF’s glide path dictates the mix of those funds within the TDF.

But remember, the fund industry likes money. Since TDFs serve as a convenient wrapper for the mix of funds they contain, you may pay a premium for that convenience. So if you’re someone who hates the idea of having to change or rebalance your portfolio, or spending time on it in general and you just want to keep contributing, these can be a great option.

Exchange Traded Funds

Lastly, you may encounter the newest type of fund in your retirement plan, the exchange traded fund (ETF). An ETF is not all that different than a mutual fund. You get a diverse basket of stocks, you can track an index, and you get charged an expense ratio. But, they are very different in how they’re traded. With a mutual fund, if you want to buy or sell shares you put in an order and that order gets completed by the next day. With an ETF, you can buy or sell your shares instantly just like a stock.

Also, with most mutual funds you need to make an initial investment of a couple thousand dollars. With an ETF, you can invest for whatever the price of a single share costs. This can allow a beginning investor to make a portfolio of many funds without needing a lot of money.

There is one extra “fee” to be aware of though. When you trade a security, be it a stock, bond, or ETF, there’s a cost to facilitate that trade known as the bid-ask spread. In essence, there’s a higher price you can buy a security for and lower price you can sell it for. The difference between those two values, the spread, is the cost paid to the exchange that facilitates the trade. The more something is traded, the more liquid it is said to be, and the lower the spread will be. While not especially important for something you intend to hold long term, it adds a cost to buying and selling that you should keep in mind.

What’s Right for Me?

Now that you have a better understanding of what types of investments are lurking in your retirement plan, the question now is “which one(s) to choose?” Well, just like the decisions surrounding your contributions were very personal, these will also be.

And, there’s no one size fits all approach.

When building your portfolio, there are many factors to consider. Some of the main ones:

  • Retirement Plan
    • Do you plan to retire early or at a traditional age?
    • How much do you need to fund your retirement?
  • Risk Tolerance
    • How much risk you’re able to take
    • Usually related to your age and expected time to retirement
  • Risk Capacity
    • How much risk you need to take
    • Related to your current wealth, savings rate, retirement time frame, etc.
  • Investment Strategy
  • Who’s Managing It?

That last point is extremely important because statistically speaking, Americans are horrible at investing on their own.

Why?

Because much of your success as an investor is going to be driven by how you behave in different conditions. If you’ve ever heard the old adage “buy low and sell high” you may be surprised by how many people do the exact opposite. While there are many benefits to the DIY approach in managing your investments, it can sometimes help to have a professional help manage you. Aside from having the knowledge to build a portfolio that meets your needs, a financial planner can help you navigate the ups and downs of your investing career in a way that keeps you on track. If you feel like having that guidance, support and expert knowledge in helping you navigate your investments and portfolio, schedule a free discovery call with YFP Director of Business Development, Justin Woods, PharmD to see if YFP Planning is a good fit for you.

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YFP 107: What You Should Be Doing During the Grace Period

Posted on by yfpadmin


What You Should Be Doing During the Grace Period

Christina Slavonik, CFP® and YFP Team Member, joins Tim Baker to discuss the student loan grace period, why it’s not that gracious and what you should be doing during the grace period. They break down the differences between the grace period, forbearance and deferment and talk through scenarios you can consider when determining your student loan payoff strategy.

Summary

Christina Slavonik, CFP®, is back on the show to talk about how the grace period sometimes isn’t that gracious. The grace period on your federal student loans usually lasts 6 to 9 months and is the time between graduating from college and when you start making payments on your loans. This can be really helpful while you are looking for a job, but it should be looked at with caution. The problem is that interest accrued during this period is then transferred over to your principal balance, causing your balance to obviously increase as well as the interest on the loans. Behaviorally, a lot of people have a hard time avoiding lifestyle creep as they don’t have to make any student loan payments and then are hit with a surprise a few months later.

When the grace period is over, you automatically will be defaulted into a standard repayment plan. If your student loan debt is $160,000, a standard repayment plan will have you pay about $1,800 monthly. So what should you do during the grace period if you don’t want to fall into a standard repayment plan?

Christina suggests that establishing ground rules and assessing your job, situation and cash flow are the first steps. Then, you can formulate a repayment strategy. Tim and Christina talk through scenarios of a pharmacist seeking PSLF, non-PSLF forgiveness and an aggressive option. Christina reminds listeners to stick to a strategy once you understand them and pick one and to not get too comfortable during the grace period. Overall, Tim and Christina both iterate the importance of intentionality when determining a loan payoff strategy. They also discuss refinancing and consolidating your federal loans and the strategies and reasons for doing so.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Baker: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to Episode 107 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Christina, welcome back to the podcast. It’s been awhile since you’ve been on. How have you been?

Christina Slavonik: Doing great, yeah. Thanks so much.

Tim Baker: So a little update for the listeners out there, Christina, who I think came onto the team in March, she was actually out in Baltimore in YFP Planning headquarters, and we spent a week last week kind of just doing some training and just working together, side-by-side, which I think was fantastic. I feel like anytime we can get in person, not just on the YFP Planning side but just with the Tims and everything, it’s always a good, productive use of time. So yeah, how was your visit to Baltimore?

Christina Slavonik: It was wonderful. Yeah. Baltimore, I just love the history, of course. And you and Shea were very hospitable. And got to have some crabs, I’ve never had to open crabs before, so thank you to Paul Eichenberg and his wife Anne for being so patient. I think I was a fast learner, but yeah, it always helps to have a good tutor to help you with that.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so we pick crabs with Paul on one of the evenings Christina was here. And it was out on the water, it was beautiful, so yeah, big props to Paul and his wife Anne for hosting. That was fantastic. So Christina, we’re going to talk about the grace period. And for a lot of those out there, we talk about the grace period as something that maybe isn’t as gracious as one would think. And really, what we’re talking about is really that waiting period between graduation and when you actually start your loan payment. So for a lot of people, this is going to be, for their federal loans, it’s going to be six months. If you have Perkins loans out there, it could be up to nine months where you’re actually not on the hook for any of the payments that are out there. There are some exceptions out there that if you are in the military or something of that sort, you know, you can actually get a longer grace period. The problem is during this period of time, the interest that is basically building month after month, year over year, really, if you go out that far, is unforgiving. And it’s not so gracious. So I think for us today, what we want to talk about is, you know, along with some of the nuances of what grace is and kind of what are the differences between grace, deferment, and forbearance, is actually what you can do to mitigate some of that during that six-, nine-month time. So Christina, for you, when you think about grace versus deferment versus forbearance, can you tell the audience, basically break it down like what the difference is between those things? And how we should kind of go about the grace period?

Christina Slavonik: Sure. So yeah, just reiterating what you had just said, the grace period is the waiting period between your graduation and the actual start of loan repayment. So there’s also some other caveats. So if you’re going from full-time schooling to part-time schooling. And then if you withdraw from school, your grace period may also end. But the whole point of the grace period is just to give you some time to hopefully find that job and so that you have an income within that 6-9 months to start repaying back those loans. So yeah, looking at the difference, deferment allows you to completely stop making payments. So if you decide to return back to school, you can take advantage of that whereas forbearance, you stop the payment requirement altogether due to financial hardship. And there are different definitions of that and how that works.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and sometimes, if you’re going into a residency program, you can actually qualify for a deferment. And sometimes they categorize that as more schooling or forbearance because maybe the residency doesn’t pay you kind of anywhere close to what you would actually be able to pay off your loans with. So you know, it is important to understand the difference. But by and large, what we often say is that the grace period should be looked at with absolute caution. I feel like when we first started talking on this subject, Christina, and we would go and we would talk to residents or people that had just done residency or a fellowship or just even current residents and we would say, “Hey, how many of you deferred or put your, you know, loans into forbearance after the grace period?” And a lot of them opted into that just because just making ends meet with that residency salary was tough. The problem is — and we’ll talk about this a little bit more — is the fact of the matter is that you have this period of time to account for the period of time where life is adjusting. What we often see is that the lifestyle creep can kick in, we sometimes see that it’s just one of those things that are in the back of our mind that we know that this maybe six-figure monster is looming overhead, but we just don’t want to confront that quite yet. And typically, the longer that we kick the can down the road, the more painful it’s going to be. And it’s typically when we go from the grace period into repayment. So if you don’t do anything, that standard repayment plan is going to be your default plan. So again, the numbers per the averages is that if you have an average pharmacy loan debt of $160,000, the standard plan, which is over 10 years, it’s about an $1,800 per month payment. So if you don’t do anything, once you go from that grace period into the payment, whether it’s standard or one of the income-driven, all of the dollars that are in the interest column — you know, so you have your principal and your interest. And your interest has just been accumulating throughout school for those unsubsidized. And for the subsidized loans, they’re not. But once you basically have the act of going into repayment, all of those interest dollars migrate over to principal. So basically, it clears the ledger of interest, but then those dollars are now making interest and interest on top of interest, and that’s where it can get very predatory. So you know, one of the things that we’ll kind of talk about is what to do during the grace period and how to tackle that. But it’s super — you know, we talk about this time and time again, and you know, it’s kind of — we beat the drum on this is it’s all about intentionality. For some people, as they’re looking — and Christina, you and I can attest to this since working with so many residents —

Christina Slavonik: Definitely.

Tim Baker: And new grads, it’s like the job market is real. And sometimes, it doesn’t line up as quickly as you would want. So that’s where the grace period really can come into play. However, I think there are some ways that we can get into repayment easier and at a more preferential monthly payment that is actually doable, even on a resident’s salary. So in terms of some loopholes that we can talk about with regard to the grace period, what have you seen as kind of maybe the big loophole to kind of shift the default in terms of that six-month or that nine-month waiting period to get into repayment?

Christina Slavonik: The shift to think about — some people, the moment they get out, they’re like, oh, I want to pay down this debt, they want to consolidate. But just be careful to make sure you’re weighing all your options because even though you’re in grace period, once you do decide to consolidate or even refinance, that grace period will actually, you’ll lose it. So yeah, students who consolidate during the grace period will lose the remainder of that grace period. So that’s why, you know, we recommend that — say for instance, you’re about to enter repayment within 60 days or so. If you do decide to consolidate, just wait if you can to the end of that grace period so you’re kind of backing it up to that point so you don’t have to immediately be out of grace period and start having to pay it back that urgently.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so for some people, depending on what the strategy is — and we’ll kind of talk through some examples here — but for some people that they don’t want to lose the grace period because the income isn’t there to support that payment, something like a consolidation is ill advisable because you typically will lose that grace period. However, if you’re a pharmacist that you want to get into repayment as quickly as possible because you want to start the clock maybe on PSLF or you just want to get in the process of paying those loans down, consolidation is a great way to kind of cut through the grace period because for some people, they don’t need it. They have a job before they even graduate, and they basically can start the repayment process. So it just depends on where that’s at. Now, again, from a refinance perspective, anytime — so to just kind of recap of where we’re at with refinance, so consolidation is basically where we take one or more of our federal loans and we basically consolidate them down into one to two consolidation loans. And typically, the way this works is when you graduate, oftentimes, we’ll see pharmacists that have FELL loans, which are kind of like the old federal loans, they’ll have Stafford subsidized, Stafford unsubsidized, they might have a Perkins loan, they might have a private loan. So all the loans except for the private loan are eligible for the federal loan repayment, so that’s going to be your standard default and then one of the four income-driven ones, which is going to be IBR, ICR, revised Pay As You Earn and Pay As You Earn. However, especially for like the Perkins and the FELL loans, we often have to basically solve the square peg, round hole. So the FELL and the Perkins loans don’t fit into the income-driven ones. We basically have to consolidate those down to typically a consolidation subsidized and a consolidation unsubsidized to get into those income-driven plans. And what a lot of people do is they fail to do that. So in certain situations, we’ll have clients that are halfway through PSLF, it’ll be five years in, but they might have $30,000-40,000 of FELL loans that don’t qualify for forgiveness because they never consolidated those down. So my thought is you want to do this on the — basically from Jump Street. So if you just graduated and you’re unsure, timing your consolidation is important because if you do it like right now and you don’t have a job lined up, in 60 days, the payments are going to start, which might not necessarily be a bad thing. Or you wait until the end of the consolidation period. One thing to really focus on, Christina, is once you consolidate, any payments that you might have previously made — so that’s the example, the five-year, making payments for five years — that clock starts over. So that’s really important to really understand. So that’s a big roadblock is if you ask yourself, how many years have I been paying towards a forgiveness strategy before you consolidate? Because if you consolidate, then the time in that situation goes from five years to zero years, and that’s no bueno. So refinance, on the other example, is when you say, “Hey, thanks, federal system, it’s been great. But I’m going to take my income and my payment history and my credit, and I’m going to go out to say one of the YFP partners at Common Bond or SoFi or LendKey or Earnest and try to get a better rate since this is where I’m paying 6.5% with the federal government. I’m going to try to refi down and get a 5.5% rate at a term that fits me and my budget.” The big reminder there is once you go from private to federal, once we go from private to federal, we can’t go back. So that’s really important to remember as well. So that’s kind of a brief overview. So again, when we talk about the grace period loophole, what we’re really talking about is consolidation. And if we consolidate, then if you don’t want that six-month period, we can actually cut that by a third and get you into repayment basically in two months. So that’s kind of what we’re looking at. So Christina, when we talk about the grace period, what are the things that we do with clients, you know, maybe from a basic level when we talk about goals or budget — how would you start the conversation with regard to what do we do? What do we do during the grace period and really beyond that?

Christina Slavonik: Yeah, so basically, Tim, you just want to establish some ground rules. Obviously, what their job situation looks like and if they’re ready to just start looking at this. Because if they don’t do anything, at least they’ll have the standard plan that they’ll just default into. So we do get quite a few people that they’re finishing residency and about to start their job, and then they start kind of panicking. They’re like, well, what do we do with our student loans during this time? So I just try and reassure them, first and foremost, that hey, you don’t have to make a decision ASAP. But we have to get that conversation going. So firstly, you know, looking at their budget, seeing exactly where they’re at with their cash flow is the No. 1 thing and then formalizing a repayment plan from there. So you had already mentioned the RePAYE and the PAYE as well as the other IBR plans. Those are the typical ones that we see people falling into. And then if you can do it with PSLF, what that looks like. And then if you can’t qualify for PSLF or the Public Student Loan Forgiveness, what that also looks like. So of course, PSLF, you will pay the least amount as humanly possible, especially important to at least begin thinking about that from your P4 year to PGY1. And if you know you are going to be pursuing PSLF or have a job lined up with a nonprofit, consolidating to get into that repayment is so important because you want that clock to start ticking the moment you are starting to repay those loans.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so if we break that down. And we can kind of use a real-world example here. We had a client that actually is going from their PGY2 year into a nonprofit hospital position. So she was weighing a few different options, and she was looking at an option that paid her I think about $98,000 for the nonprofit hospital. And she had about $270,000 in debt, so to speak. And then she was also weighing a for-profit offer, which was about $125,000 in that area. And she actually decided to go with the nonprofit that paid her substantially less because as you said, you’re going to pay the least amount as humanly possible over the course of those 10 years. It’s not even a comparison. So for her, it’s really getting into the repayment as quickly as possible. Now, again, if you’re looking at like you mentioned, a P4 year going into a PGY1 or something like that, you want to start the clock on PSLF as soon as possible. So that’s typically where you want to get through the grace period, maybe you consolidate, start the payments in 60 days, and then really start the clock on that 120 payments hopefully over those 10 years. So those are all great points. So what if PSLF is not on the table? What if you say, “Hey, Tim, that’s great. I’m going to go work for a for-profit hospital or I’m going to go work in industry or something like that.” What’s a strategy that we would look at? And how would the grace period affect us in that mode in your estimation?

Christina Slavonik: There’s just really what you’re comfortable with. Non-PSLF, obviously, you can’t have RePAYE, but the thing is if there is any forgiveness, it’s going to non-PSLF forgiveness. So at the end of your payments, you will have to pay taxes back on whatever is forgiven. So knowing that in advance and being able to stock some extra money away at the end of that term is important because you don’t want to have a huge what we call a tax bomb on your tax return that final year when you do get everything paid off.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so if you’re transitioning from like a P4, like you said, Christina, into something that’s for-profit, typically something outside of PSLF forgiveness makes sense if you have a debt-to-income ratio higher than 2:1. So this is an example of, “Hey, Tim, I have $300,000 in debt. I’m offered $100,000 at my for-profit job. What do I do?” And this is typically where we would want to get you into one of the income-driven plans and get that started as quickly as possible. So again, in the grace period, it probably makes sense for you to do that. And then the idea is to one, lower your AGI just like you would in PSLF, get those payments down as low as possible. But in the non-PSLF strategy, what you really want to do is save for that tax bomb, as you mentioned, and make sure that there are dollars set aside for that so you’re not surprised by that.

Christina Slavonik: Yeah.

Tim Baker: And really, both of those cases, in the PSLF and the non-PSLF, if you can — again, given the budget and things that you mentioned, maybe having a little bit of cushion with the emergency fund — it’s really imperative in my estimation is to get into repayment as quickly so you can start the clock for forgiveness. The last one we should probably talk about is an aggressive option. So if you are of the mind of say like our Tim Church where he is in repayment, very aggressively — you know, in this scenario, the grace period might not even matter. Now, it could for some because if you’re a recent graduate and you’re waiting to get into repayment, sometimes when you refi, the refi companies want to see, they want to see proof of income, they want to see proof of payment, that you actually have a track record of doing so. So sometimes, doing nothing and just going through the grace period or at least consolidate them and maybe get into repayment more quickly might make sense. But from there, you know, you probably want to shop refi when you feel eligible, when you feel like you have a long enough track record and get that process going. You could also do nothing and stay in the standard plan after the grace period and just know that that interest will capitalize from the interest column into the principal column, which is not necessarily a fun thing. Any thoughts on that, Christina? In terms of what you see.

Christina Slavonik: Well, just be black or white. Don’t be anywhere in the middle.

Tim Baker: Yeah, exactly.

Christina Slavonik: You want to make a decision to do aggressive, do aggressive the whole way, just like Tim Church is a very good example, as well as many other clients and people we’ve had on the podcast. And those that listen on a regular basis have heard their stories. But yeah, just put all you have into it and head to the ground and get it done.

Tim Baker: But it’s one of those things, though, you know, it’s kind of our human nature where if I’m putting the least amount towards my loans, sometimes I may feel guilty, so maybe I get a tax refund or maybe I get a graduation gift, and I want to like put that towards my loans and get the process started. But if you’re seeking a forgiveness play, it’s like, uh uh. You want to fly that flag until you are forgiven. But human nature, we kind of revert to the mean. So that’s not necessarily the right thing to do. So important to, again, understand your strategy and stick to the strategy.

Christina Slavonik: Exactly.

Tim Baker: Yeah, at the end of the day, what we often like to say, this is more about intentionality. And I think what sometimes happens with the grace period is that we lose some of the intentionality because we get comfortable in kind of that transitionary space or we just kind of forget — we have clients that will say, “Oh yeah, the loans. Like now I have a bill for $1,800. What do I do?” We’re seeing more and more people become proactive and I think intentional, which I think it’s a great sign that maybe we’re moving the needle a bit. And people can speak through the different strategies and that type of thing. But the grace period I think, like you said, it’s not necessarily gracious from a math perspective but then also from a behavioral perspective just because of that half a year, so to speak, where you get comfortable without having to really worry about the loans. Me, that can be almost as problematic as the math. So I think to kind of reiterate, the grace period, it’s not necessarily gracious. It’s going to be different than the forbearance and the deferment options that are going to be out there for many, especially if you’re having problems finding a job in those maybe pharmacy-saturated markets or if you’re going into residency, you can easily opt into those types of things. But what our suggestion over this grace period is one, does it make sense to cut through that? And if it doesn’t, I think just having a plan going forward with the loans because it’s not hyperbole to say that the decision of what you do with the loans, especially out of the gate, can be hundreds of thousands of dollars one way or the other, especially with the average loan forgiveness programs we’re seeing.

Christina Slavonik: Yeah. Like a huge difference.

Tim Baker: Yeah. You know, and you’ve seen it, Christina, when we’re working with clients, it’s like when we put that on the decision table, for a lot of people, it’s really the first time that they’ve actually looked at the numbers and actually seen like, OK, if I go down this path, this is what I’m going to pay in total and this is kind of my monthly payment that I can expect. And that can be shocking for a lot of people, especially if they’ve been in this mindset going through pharmacy school of just kind of sticking your head down and worrying about getting through pharmacy school because that’s really hard in and of itself.The financial side has kind of been buried. And it’s funny, when we go to the APhA conference and I talk to students there, and I say, “Hey, what are you — what’s your thoughts about your student loans?” It’s like, “I don’t even think about my student loans.” It’s almost like they stick their head in the sand, and they don’t worry about them, which I think can be problematic in and of itself. But the grace period can be almost an extension of that because we’re kicking the can another half year down the road for us to actually come to grips with what we actually have to pay back and how do we use the tools out there?

Christina Slavonik: Exactly.

Tim Baker: So once again, Christina, thank you for coming on the YFP podcast to lend your voice to this discussion about the grace period and student loans, always great to have you represented here. And I think we covered a lot of ground. You know, I think we talked about the difference between the grace period, forbearance, and deferment. We talked about different strategies and the grace period loophole with regard to consolidation. And what we really want as a community is for you, the recent pharmacy graduate, to really be intentional with your student loans. Now, if you’re looking for additional resources, additional podcasts to listen to with regard to the student loans and as you’re transitioning, I want to point you to three different episodes: Episode 051, which is 8 Things to Do or Avoid to Evade Financial Purgatory After Graduation, and then 052, the one following it, is 5 Steps to Crush Your Student Loans. Great resources. And then finally, Episode 099 is Key Financial Moves for Pharmacy Graduates. I think this podcast, along with those other three, will really equip you on your journey to pay back your student debt. So thank you for listening to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. And looking forward to next time.

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YFP 106: How This Pharmacist Got His Financial House in Order

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How To Get Your Finances in Order as a Pharmacist

John Kohli, PharmD, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about his career journey, how he managed to rack up approximately $260,000 of debt despite graduating from pharmacy school with minimal student loan debt, what motivated him to get his financial house in order, and how he hustled to pay off most of this debt within a 2 year period.

About Today’s Guest

Originally from northeast Ohio, John Kohli currently lives in Phoenix, Arizona and works as a pharmacist in acute care and behavioral health. John graduated with a Doctor of Pharmacy degree in 2006 from Ohio Northern University. He moved to Arizona where he completed a pharmacy practice residency with emphasis in community pharmacy with Midwestern University College of Pharmacy Glendale. He has worked for independent pharmacies, larger retail pharmacies, and hospitals. His interests include bicycling, speaking German, and volunteering.

Summary

John Kohli has an incredible story to share that includes ups and downs financially and personally and a journey of discovering his true identity and how that impacted his finances. In this podcast, John speaks about how to get your finances in order as a pharmacist.

John, a 2006 graduate of Ohio Northern University, currently works as a PRN pharmacist at a psychiatric hospital. His pharmacist journey started his senior year of high school. He worked at a small independent pharmacy and the pharmacist there encouraged him to apply to Ohio Northern. John was able to graduate with only $60,000 to $70,000 of student loan debt. He received scholarships, worked during the summer full-time and also worked 10 to 20 hours a week during school to help reduce the amount of money he had to borrow. After graduation, he wanted to move to a place with warmer weather and landed a residency in Phoenix. He still lives in Phoenix today.

Although he graduated with minimal debt compared to other pharmacists, John began racking up a lot of debt quickly. After residency, he began earning his first pharmacist salary, thought money wouldn’t be an issue and bought a house in the summer of 2006. By the fall of 2007, the stock market crashed and the housing market in Phoenix was hit hard. He purchased his house for $233,000 with an interest only loan and adjustable rate mortgage. At this time, John was working part-time due to reducing his hours to handle the addiction he was struggling with. He realized he needed to get out of that mortgage and had to short sell his house for $72,000, which affected his credit. He accumulated credit card debt during this time, as well.

John refers to a period of his life as a spiritual financial breakdown. He liked his pharmacy career, but realized he put too much emphasis on his identify as a pharmacist. In recognizing his addiction, he had to acknowledge that there was something missing and that working as a pharmacist could allow him to have a life and find out what was missing, while not focusing on his work as the only goal.

After this process of discovery and reflection, John got serious about paying off the $260,000 of debt that he had accumulated post-graduation which included a second house mortgage, credit card debt, and student loan debt. He had been gradually paying on this debt, but got serious about paying it off between January 2017 to January 2019. To do this, he worked on budgeting to take control of his expenses and started saving 70-90% of his income. John built an emergency fund ($10,000 that grew to $50,000), contributed to retirement (not in a 401k, but in a Roth and stocks but then contributed to a 401k once he got a full-time job again), and rented and had a roommate. He purchased his second home once he was able to save 20% for it. When he got serious about paying off his debt, he got rid of his credit card and paid it off, paid off his student loans and then paid off his second mortgage. He picked up another job and worked a lot and also slashed his budget in some obscure ways, like not using air conditioning even in the hot Phoenix summer.

Now that John’s debt is paid off, he feels like he has options, feels serene, and can handle what comes at him spiritually, mentally and financially. Even though it was really hard and he doubted that he’d be able to pay everything off when he was in the trenches of it, he now sees how it was worth it. Although John isn’t planning on being as dramatic as he was when he was paying off his debt, he still saves 70% to 90% of his income and lives frugally. In the future, he wants to buy some sort of asset like real estate or a business.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. I’m excited to welcome John Kohli onto the show, a 2006 graduate of Ohio Northern University who has an incredible journey to share with our listeners that includes ups and downs financially and personally and a journey of discovering his true identity and how that has impacted his finances. John, welcome to the show!

John Kohli: Thanks, Tim. Glad to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: I appreciate your time. You know, here we are, Memorial Day weekend, 8 a.m. Eastern, 6 a.m. out in Arizona, so — actually 5 a.m., right? Out in Arizona?

John Kohli: Yeah, that’s correct. Yes. Bright and early.

Tim Ulbrich: Early morning, and I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me and share your story with our listeners. I think, as I mentioned, incredible journey that I know has been inspirational to me and I’m sure will be the same for our listeners. So let’s start with your education and training. Tell me a little bit about how you got into pharmacy and then your career path since graduating from Ohio Northern in 2006.

John Kohli: Well, absolutely. I was working in a pharmacy as a senior in high school, actually. A small, independently owned pharmacy in the small town where I grew up, and the pharmacist encouraged me to apply to her alma mater, which was and is Ohio Northern. And I decided this would be a great career choice. I packed my bags, moved to Ada, and spent the six years there. And after that was looking at maybe I should move to a warmer place in winter. And I really liked the Southwest, so I found a residency out in Phoenix and decided to pack up my Honda Accord and drive on over to Phoenix, do a residency, and plans were to stay for a little bit and see how things went. And here I am, almost — what? — now 13 years later.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

John Kohli: Still here.

Tim Ulbrich: So growing up in northeast Ohio, as I recall, correct?

John Kohli: That’s correct.

Tim Ulbrich: So no wonder. I grew up in Buffalo. So no wonder you wanted to move out to Arizona. I mean, you spent time in northeast Ohio, you spent time in Ada, Ohio, where the winds and the polar vortexes are readily there. So going out to the warmer weather certainly makes sense. So talk us through, you got to Arizona, you do residency with a compounding pharmacy at Midwestern University. Tell us then about the career path that leads up to your current role at the psychiatric hospital.

John Kohli: It’s interesting. I’m glad that I did the residency out here in Arizona because I didn’t know anybody but a friend of a friend from Ohio Northern, who was also a student at Midwestern. So I came out here blind in terms of any friends or connections other than my job and that one loose connection. And I ended up starting to be an assistant professor at Midwestern and also working still at that compounding pharmacy. And that is where my journey continued. And I met a lot of people through the state association, through residency. We had some residents groups. And then I ended up leaving the college and just working full-time at the compounding pharmacy, although this specific one was more in terms of HIV specializing. So we helped patients there at that clinic. So it was about at that time that I really had what I call my spiritual and financial breakdown. And my problems with addiction really came into play. And I had to take about a year to sort of take some time off from pharmacy and just work part-time. I worked in a grocery store setting in another small, compounding pharmacy for a year or two, then bounced into a clinical pharmacy position with the prisons for a very brief moment and then back into the grocery store. So at that time, it was figuring out, is this the right career for me? What do I want to do with my life? A lot of the financial realities were starting to hit there. So there was a lot of questions about what am I doing? And it was during that time that I landed the director position at a psych hospital. And from there, spent about 3-4 years in that position. Also got into a PRN position at an acute care-trauma hospital and really built those connections in that aspect of pharmacy. And that’s where I am today now.

refinance student loans

Tim Ulbrich: And so before we get into, you know, what you referenced as your spiritual/financial breakdown, knowing that’s such a big part of your story, I want to talk about your strategy and debt position coming out of pharmacy school because you really had a lower amount of student loan debt, significantly lower, than is the average. So I’ve talked before with our listeners, also went to Ohio Northern University, because of my lack of education and awareness and different factors, I came out with a little more than $200,000 of debt during my repayment journey. But you had a much lower amount, $60,000-70,000, which is about $100,000 less than the national average right now. So how were you able to graduate with the lower amount of debt than is the norm, especially coming out of a private institution?

John Kohli: You know, Ohio Northern blessed me with some scholarship. So I already came in with some academic scholarship and also, through — there was an organization in the nearby small town, and they also helped with a portion of my student loan, or student tuition, excuse me.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

John Kohli: And then I basically worked throughout my years at Ohio Northern. I worked during the summer full-time and worked during the school year 10-20 hours a week from really freshman year until I graduated. So — and I paid some of that tuition and tried to minimize the amount of loan debt I had to incur.

Tim Ulbrich: So minimizing the amount that you needed to borrow for cost of living and other things, scholarships, it sounds like from that, as well as the work experience. I’m just curious, Ada, as everybody knows — for those that don’t know, it’s literally in the middle of nowhere — so I get the summer work, you know, you probably went home to northeast Ohio. Where were you working like throughout the year? Like there’s one pharmacy I think within 10 miles.

John Kohli: Yes. Well, I had to drive the 10 or so miles to Lima, Ohio.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

John Kohli: And luckily, I met an alumnus in the Rite Aid corporation, and from — I’d done some college work as a senior in high school, and I was able to get my intern license the winter of my sophomore year.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

John Kohli: So actually in December of that year, I started interning at Rite Aid in Lima, Ohio, and would drive there on the weekends, sometimes during the week, but almost every weekend. Sometimes I wished that I could be hanging out and enjoying the weekends off, but there was a lot of times I had to go into work.

Tim Ulbrich: A lot of hustle. And we’re going to come back to that because that’s very much your journey of paying off debt was a lot of hard work and hustle. You’re giving me flashbacks, John. I remember sitting in the chapel at Ohio Northern in our Profession of Pharmacy POP course winter semester of the P2 year, applying for intern licenses. So I was back on campus recently talking with our students, and I was like, you know, we had POP, Profession of Pharmacy in the chapel. And they looked at me like I was crazy because now they have like these nice facilities and buildings and all that. So good times and memories. So you know, let’s talk about what happened. I mean, we’re going to talk in a minute about paying off $260,000 of debt, which was a variety of things, student loans, a mortgage, some credit card debt. But what happened from graduating in such a good financial position to really, in some sense, the wheels falling off and racking up a significant amount of debt after graduation? Where did that debt come from? And why was that the case?

John Kohli: Well, the biggest thing that happened was after I finished my residency and got that first real pharmacist salary, and I felt like I was rolling in dough. I mean, this is what I wanted — this is why I went to school for six years and an extra year. And I bought a house here in Phoenix in the summer of 2006. And if anybody can remember, yes, yes. You know exactly where I’m going with this.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

John Kohli: Is by 2007, the fall of 2007, the stock market crashed, and the housing market just tanked here in Phoenix. So I bought with an interest-only loan. I didn’t put any money down, and I bought at the top, tip-top of the market. And that was a significant — that was over $200,000 of debt right there in that property. And this was at the time when I had to start working part-time and wasn’t full-time employed. So it was OK when times were good. I could pay that mortgage. But as soon as something unexpected happened and I didn’t have that income and the market wasn’t great, I was in a bind. And that’s where I also racked up credit card debt and was just not able, you know, would have been able to pay the mortgage but also, it was a burden.

Tim Ulbrich: So it sounds like several factors came together that, you know, the part-time work since you’re not working full-time, you mentioned interest-only loan, no money down, and all of a sudden, the market takes a significant hit. And so you don’t have that full-time income. Obviously, you have some student loan debt. But that leads then, I’m assuming, to some credit card debt because of a lesser salary and the mortgage challenges that are going on. So give me the details on the home. I mean, obviously what I know of Arizona and the financial crisis with the mortgage bubble being popped is they were hit probably harder than anybody else. I mean, maybe a couple other markets, but what did that actually look like number-wise for you? And how did that impact the rest of your plan?

John Kohli: Oh yes. So I bought in 2006, $233,000 as an interest-only, adjustable rate mortgage after a 10-year arm I think is what it was. And ended up short selling that house in 2012 for about $72,000.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

John Kohli: So that is how bad it was here.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

John Kohli: And even after I sold, that definitely affected my credit and ability to purchase something else. So I was looking at trying to find something for cash, and you could find, in those 2012-2013, you could find condos here in Phoenix, you know, nice 2-bedroom, 2-bath condos for under $50,000. So I was looking to pay cash for something. But I kept getting under contract and losing it or there was bidding wars. And then the market just was out of my reach in terms of paying cash after that. And it was, you know — now, we’re back up to where we were prior to the crash or the recession or even higher than where we were.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, it’s really interesting just to hear you say, John, in such a short period of time, you went from graduation, feeling like you’re rolling in the door, six-figure income to all of a sudden, what was I would argue a very good position, only $60,000-70,000 of student loan debt quickly turns into a lot of debt because of the mortgage position, credit card debt, you mentioned the car loan, of course the student loan debt didn’t go away. I think there’s something to be learned for all of us there in terms especially when you’re looking at those big purchases like a home, here we are again, right, 2019, super hot market here in Columbus. I think it’s the No. 1 market in the country right now. And I think it’s easy to buy these homes, the doctor loans are readily available, nothing down, arms, all those types of things, interest-only options, and for some people, they may be able to get away with that. Maybe the market doesn’t crash next year, maybe it does, but really looking holistically at the rest of your financial plan to say, hey, if the market goes down 20% next year or 30% or 40%, what’s my game plan, right? As I look at the rest of the plan, and I think that gets into a bias where we tend to look at things through the lens of today.

John Kohli: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: Assuming they’re always going to stay the way that they are today.

John Kohli: Yeah, everything looks great.

Tim Ulbrich: Everything looks great.

John Kohli: Like you said, what happens if the market crashes? Or what happens if I lose my job? Or some other unexpected thing happens? What do we do?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, you never know. That’s exactly right. You never know what that may be. So I’m assuming — I want to come back to you mentioned previously having a spiritual/financial breakdown. And I have to assume all of this was going on at the same time when I just see the transition from where things started to where things ended up and then obviously, we’ll talk about the recovery of that on the back end. So tell me more about this spiritual/financial breakdown, as much as you’re willing to share about where that came from and then how that played a part in eventually you turning this ship around.

John Kohli: Yeah. You know, I just realized that I had really liked my career and I liked pharmacy, but I think I was just putting too much emphasis on the career, you know, the career being my identity. Like it wasn’t just I’m John, who is a pharmacist. It was, I’m John the pharmacist. And everything I did was based on this job and also in the fact that I also wanted to make money. And that was the end of the goal. That was really it was just in, you know, pursuing this goal of getting that degree or getting that salary. And once it happened, there really wasn’t anything — it wasn’t that fulfilling. It was, OK, now I’m done with it. And what do I do now? And I think that in really recognizing my addiction, I had to say, there’s something missing here. And I need to find out what that is. And I think, you know, pharmacy could allow me to have a life to find out what that is but not be the end and only goal.

Tim Ulbrich: So much wisdom there. And I hope our listeners hear that because I think that’s true for many pharmacists, addiction aside, is the identity that can come from career. Something I struggle with on a regular basis, and I think it’s something that just constantly I’m hoping to challenge others to say, hey, at the end of all this, what’s the point? Why does this matter? As you look back in 30 or 40 years, like, what is this really about? And I like what you said about career is certainly a big part of the overall picture, but I think if that becomes the sole identity, there’s going to be a lot of disappointment for lots of different reasons. So where did that discovery process for you come from? Was that a part of you working through the addiction? You mentioned a spiritual component there. Where did you really pivot and say, OK, if it’s not this is my true identity, this is what is my true identity. Where did you get the freedom to discover that?

John Kohli: It’s been from just spiritual work. You know, in looking at the things in my life that I’ve done, you know, my character assets, my character liabilities, basically forgiving myself for the mistakes I’ve made and then also recognizing that I can have choices, and I can choose what I want to do and my actions have consequences, either positive or negative. So it really got — basically, seeing everything crash down around me and recognizing that I’m still here, I’m OK, and I’ve got a responsibility to take care of these things, but now I can deliberately make choices to basically put myself into a better option in the future. And that that is my responsibility, and I can use that through my relationship with God, through other ways — not just through my job but through other things, you know, through my church, through community organizations and my hobbies and interests, that it needs to all come together.

Tim Ulbrich: So let me build on that. And one of the things I often think about — probably too much, to be honest with you — is that I often think and try to picture a scenario where I’m 75-80 years old if I’m lucky enough to have the opportunity to live that long, my kids are grown and they’re off, and my wife and I are reflecting back on life, and I try to think from those moments, from that moment, like as you look back, I try to think about what are the things that would need to happen that I would say, “Life well lived,” and I would have peace with that. And I often worry and am somewhat anxious that I’m going to look back at that and say, “Wow, I spent a whole lot of time doing a whole lot of things that didn’t really matter a whole lot in the scheme of this bigger picture.” So for you, John, as you think about that scenario, what are the things that you want to look back on when you’re 75-80 years old and say, “I’m so glad I did this or I spent my time doing this.” What are those things that are most important?

John Kohli: I think for me, it’s helping my family, you know, my parents. I want to make sure that they’re retirement and the rest of their life is taken care of. I want to help my brother and sister. And then I want to help friends and other people that are in addiction. I want to be able to show them that there’s a way out. And I think that, you know, as much as money is great and having great experiences, traveling and accomplishment, those are all great things, but I really think it’s that relationships with the people that you love and other just people in general are going to be the most important things that I look back on.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, one of the other things I just thought of, John, is that the data would show that there’s several people that are going to be listening to this podcast that may be struggling with some type of an addiction. Obviously, that can be in a variety of different things. And while there’s not necessarily data to show this, I would argue there’s many that are listening that are struggling with identity solely being tied up in career. If somebody is listening today and one of those two things resonates, what words of wisdom would you have for them?

John Kohli: Well, if it’s addiction, there’s many organizations to help with that. And you know, I would encourage looking into those types of areas. And if it’s identity, you’re really reflecting. And if you can take some time off, maybe, you know even if it’s a couple days, if you are blessed with being able to take a couple weeks, to just look at what do you want? And find out what do you want? I’ve always had a bucket list of things that I wanted to do, from — basically from college. It was 100 things. List 100 things that you want to accomplish before you die because you’ve got to start doing it now. And you know, maybe that’s one way to start, to say what are some important things that you want to get done? And writing them down, and then taking a couple to start. And see what you need to do to do those things because that’s what I’m realizing is that life is short. I am in my late 30s, but I feel that — I still have a lot of time, but it’s not an endless amount of time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I love your suggestion there of just taking time to stop and reflect, right? It’s just so easy when life gets so busy to run week to week, month to month, year to year. And as I’m sure you do, we’re still relatively, I guess, new graduates. I graduated in 2008. So 11 years ago, but I look back at that 11 years and I’m like, what the heck happened? Like that went extremely quick. And if you’re not intentional about it, it can fly by. And I think often, that can turn into a career without intention. So let’s talk about the practicalities of how you did it, how you paid off $260,000 of debt, which was a combination of student loans, a second house mortgage after the first experience you had, some credit card debt. And while this was of course over a period of time, I know that you did most of this between January 2017 and January 2019. So that’s a lot of money in a very short period of time. So talk us through how you did it, how you wrapped your arms around this incredible amount of debt, and what did this look like month by month for you to begin to knock this down and ultimately get it paid off?

John Kohli: Absolutely. It’s hard to think — when you say that number, I’m like, wow, was it really that much? But I guess it was. And really, it definitely felt when I was hustling the hardest, you know, I kept praying, I was like, “God, if this is the right thing for me to be doing,” — because I was spending so many hours at work that I was like, “If this isn’t, please stop it.” I was willing to do what it took and to be very intense in getting there. But at the same time, I kept asking and pausing to say, “If this isn’t right, show me the way to do it.” But I guess it must have been right because here I am. And so I short-sold that house. And I was working and saving money. I started budgeting after that short sale, and I started actually looking at my finances. I think that was the first and foremost thing was actually knowing where my money was going and being deliberate about it, writing it out. And that allowed me to save some money. I started with an emergency fund. I don’t remember exactly how much it was, but maybe $10,000? And then it basically grew up to about $50,000. And I was looking for a place to buy with that. But it never worked out, so I just kind of kept saving it, started saving for retirement in my own — I wasn’t in a 401k thing, so I just put some stuff in a Roth IRA and bought some stocks in a mutual fund. And then I did get the full-time job, so I did start contributing to a 401k. And then I just really kept up with budgeting, kept up with saving as much as I could, and I was saving a pretty significant percentage. I was renting, I had a roommate at certain times, so my expenses weren’t that high. But then I finally did decide to buy another property. And I put down 20%. But then I had this mortgage over my head. And that was — it stressed me out again because I felt, you know, maybe there was a little bit of PTSD from my previous experience that oh my gosh, what happens if something terrible happens? So I had that mortgage, I still had a little bit of student loan. But in 2017, January, I decided, you know what? I’m going to get intense, and I’m going to basically get rid of my credit cards — I had finally paid those off — get rid of the other student loan because I had the cash to pay for it, so I got rid of that student loan even though it was such a low interest, I’m thinking, man, I could make so much more money in the stock market, but you know what, I’m going to get rid of this debt. And then it was, I’m going to get rid of this mortgage because I don’t want to have any debt anymore. And there we go. So that’s where I picked up another job and basically just worked my tail off.

Tim Ulbrich: So no credit card debt, no student loan debt, no mortgage, no car payments. Put that into words for me. What does that feel like? I mean, what is that sense of relief and freedom that you get being in the position you’re in right now?

John Kohli: It just feels like I have options. You know, it’s the openness. I feel like — well one, I’m serene because I really do feel like I can handle whatever is thrown at me. Really, financially, I can handle whatever is thrown at me. I do feel even spiritually, I could handle whatever’s thrown at me. But here I am in this just — I feel very secure financially. And then from my kind of just a I guess mentally, I feel like I have so many options. So that is just for me, it just really does feel like freedom. It’s freedom to choose, freedom to take advantage of whatever opportunity comes up, and it just, it feels like it was worth it, even though at certain points of time during that process, I was doubting it or was unsure. But it definitely feels like it’s worth it now.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think freedom is the exact word that I think about when I hear your journey. I mean, whether it’s freedom to take a year off to pursue something that you want, whether it’s freedom to give in a radical way for something that you’re passionate about. Options, options, options, right? And that’s really where you are right now. And I think certainly, it’s an incredible journey to hear where you started, where you went, and now where you’ve taken that into the future. So now that your debt is paid off, what is the plan? What are you doing with all of this extra money each and every month? Have you slowed down the hustle and the grind and the cutting of expenses? Or have you kept that and are you reallocating that money in other directions?

John Kohli: OK, so I definitely got pretty dramatic in my cutting of expenses during that time. I spent last summer with no air conditioning in Arizona through the summer.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

John Kohli: It wasn’t that much, but you know, in terms of money saved, that was the commitment level that I was willing to do. I don’t know if I’m ready to do that this year. I think I could probably spend a couple hundred dollars on the electric bill this summer just to avoid that.

Tim Ulbrich: I think you could, yeah.

John Kohli: Yeah, just to avoid the extreme nature of that. But I still do save like 70%, sometimes up to like 90%, of my income now.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

John Kohli: And right now, I’m putting some away in like a retirement account, but most of it is going into just my savings because I — eventually, I want to — maybe it’s a business, maybe it’s a rental property, but some other income. I want to buy some sort of asset to, you know, in the future. I don’t know exactly what that is, but I know for me, it’s having the cash readily available when that option comes up is — to me, that’s important. And still saving for retirement and having investments in index funds, you know, that is still a priority, an area that I’m focusing on. But I still am definitely extreme in my frugality. I still bike to work. I rarely go out to eat because I like cooking, and I like making things for myself. But I think this year, I’m going to probably get air conditioning.

Tim Ulbrich: So you know, it’s interesting. As I hear you talk about the journey paying off the debt but as well as right now where you’re 70%, 80%, 90% of your income, obviously that tells me you have some system in place where you’re tracking and accounting for expenses. So I’m assuming some type of a monthly budget. Can you talk us through what that looks like for you and how you manage that? If you use any tools? I think that’s a practical way that we might have somebody listening who’s going to say, “I’ve got $200,000 in debt, and I just don’t know where to start. I don’t know what to do here.” So what does that look like for you on a month-to-month basis?

John Kohli: You know, I have a — in my Notes on my phone, I have a discretionary budget, just in my Notes. And I set aside a certain amount of money, and then whenever I spend it, I document it in my Notes section. And then at the end of the month, I tally all of that up and make sure that it works — what that dollar figure is works with what has been coming in in terms of my income. And because I work sporadically, you know, some paychecks are much higher than other paychecks. But I have an idea of what the income that’s coming in is going to be. So as long as I’m keeping an eye on whatever’s coming in and what’s going out, you know, at the end of the month, they reconcile. And I reconcile it. And I just always use cash if I can. I take a certain amount out of the bank, and that’s what I use to buy things at the grocery store or whatever else I spend. I don’t have credit cards, so if my bank account doesn’t have the money in it, it’s not going to get — I can’t buy it, essentially.

Tim Ulbrich: So that’s a great example, you know, there’s a lot of varieties of budgets. We talk about a zero-based budget a lot on this podcast and on the blog and on the website. But what I’m hearing you say here is you essentially allocate x dollars per month for the discretionary, nice to have, expenses, and you make sure you don’t overspend that, but everything else, you’re allocating towards savings goals or maybe it’s giving or other types of goals. But you’re trying to identify a certain percentage that you’re just not going to overspend and then knowing that —

John Kohli: Exactly.

Tim Ulbrich: OK, very cool. Yeah, I think that’s a good way of doing it. And I think the message there hopefully for our listeners is, you know, there’s not only one way to do budgeting. And I think finding a system and a process that works well for you to allow you to be on the path toward achieving your goals is really what is important. So John, I want to again thank you for coming on the show, for your willingness to share your story. I look forward to following your journey in terms of what you’re going to do going forward, the impact you’re going to have on the pharmacy community, the impact that you’re going to have on those that struggle with addiction or career identity, whether you’re going to eventually invest in a business or real estate, other things. I think the future is really, really bright. And I look forward to following that journey and hopefully collaborating with you on some level going forward. And I thank you again for your time in coming onto the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.
John Kohli: You’re welcome, Tim. It’s been a pleasure, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

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A Crash Course in 401k Planning (Part 1)

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A Crash Course in 401k Planning (Part 1)

The following is a guest post from Dr. Jeffrey Keimer. Dr. Keimer is a 2011 graduate of Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences and pharmacy manager for a regional drugstore chain in Vermont. He and his wife Alex have been pursuing financial independence since 2016.

If you’ve been following Your Financial Pharmacist for a while now, chances are you’ve been coming up with a game plan to deal with your debts and form a solid financial foundation. Is investing part of that financial foundation or plan?

Yes?

No?

Maybe?

While cleaning up your balance sheet or having some cash tucked away for a rainy day is great, that alone isn’t going to get you to financial freedom or prepare you for retirement. For that, your money needs to go out and hustle for you, meaning you need to invest it.

But how do you get started?

To help answer that question, we are going to give you a bit of an investing and 401k planning crash course with a focus on workplace retirement plans. Over the next few posts, it’s our hope that you learn a bit more about what they are, how they work, and how to manage them. With pensions becoming an endangered species (unless you’re a government employee), you can bet that you alone are responsible for your own retirement planning. The more informed you are, the better.

Alphabet Soup: The 401(k), 403(b), and TSP

So if you don’t get a pension, what DO you get as a retirement benefit from work? Well, depending on who you work for, you’ll likely have access to one of 3 different investment accounts that can help you save for retirement. Here’s who will have access to each:

While there are some key differences between the three in terms of legal structure and requirements, there isn’t much of a practical difference for most savers. The main draw with these plans is the special tax treatment you get to enjoy which is the same across the board.

You can contribute to these plans in one of two ways:

  • Traditional or Pre-tax Contributions

Money going in is tax deductible for the year you contribute, gets to grow tax free within the account, and withdrawals get taxed as income during retirement.

  • Roth or After-tax Contributions

Money going in gets taxed with the rest of your income that year, gets to grow tax free within the account, and is tax free when withdrawn in retirement.

This tax treatment presents two opportunities for savers:

  • The potential to profit off of the difference in your tax rate now vs. in retirement.

For example, if you plan on having a higher income in retirement than you have now, Roth contributions can make sense; and if the opposite is true, then Traditional contributions can make sense. In real life, this gets a little more complicated. Fortunately, there are some sophisticated calculators out there that can help guide your decision. Another strategy to consider is to simply split contributions between both as you don’t have to go all in on either.

  • Freedom from taxes on income and capital gains generated within the account.

That second point is probably going to be the most important for savers. If you were to invest money side by side in a brokerage (taxable) account and Roth 401(k) in identical investments, after a year you’d always have more in the Roth 401(k).

This is because when you sell an investment that has appreciated in value or that investment pays you income, you have to pay taxes on that profit unless it’s in a tax advantaged account such as a 401(k). Over time, the amount of money saved by not having to pay these taxes can be incredible!

One key consideration when choosing between Traditional and Roth 401(k) is your student loan strategy. If you are pursuing the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program or even Non-PSLF forgiveness, it usually makes more sense to make all of your contributions Traditional.

The reason is that those contributions will directly lower your Adjusted Gross Income which will subsequently decrease your student loan payments. This allows you to build wealth while simultaneously decreasing your payments. Pretty awesome, right?

For PSLF remember any balance remaining after 120 payments is forgiven tax-free! Therefore, to optimize your strategy you would want to pay the least amount of money over that time.

How to Participate

First of all, in order to take advantage of these wonderful investment vehicles, your employer needs to offer one. Most larger employers will, though some require that you work for a set amount of time before you can start investing.

Once you’re eligible, your employer may automatically enroll you in the plan and start taking payroll deductions from your paycheck to fund the account. I bolded the word “may” for a reason. Some people don’t look at their pay stubs and go years without knowing that they weren’t saving for retirement. It’s important to read up on how your employer handles this benefit and make sure you participate when you can.

If your plan does automatically enroll you, chances are it’ll start taking out a small percentage of your pay for retirement savings, such as 3%. What you need to decide at this point are two things:

1. Is the amount being taken out high or low enough for your current financial situation?

2. Should your contributions be Traditional (pre-tax), Roth (after-tax), or a mix?

Only you are going to be able to answer those questions. Know that with these types of plans, you can always make changes.

How Much Should I Contribute?

This is going to be a very personal decision and there are a number of factors in play. For example, how many working years do you have left? Are you struggling to just pay bills right now and make ends meet? What is your student loan strategy?

Investing is great, but a good case can be made to put it on pause if you’re drowning in credit card or other high interest debt. Oftentimes, it’s best to clean that mess up before putting money into your retirement plan. Plus, determining the amount you’ll contribute will depend on your financial goals and how fast you want to achieve them.

Employer Match

One of the ways employers attract employees and encourage retirement plan participation is by offering to make contributions into the account as part of the overall compensation package. For some workers, they are lucky enough to work for an employer that will simply do this regardless of participation. But for most people, these contributions will be a match to your own contributions. So what does that mean?

Let’s say you work for Company X and they offer the following retirement benefit:

Up to a 100% match on the first 5% of compensation

In this scenario, Company X would match dollar for dollar your contributions into the retirement plan up to 5% of your total salary. In a given year, if you made $100,000 and contributed 5% or $5,000 into the plan, Company X would also put in $5,000. Put in 4%, and they will put in 4%. Now, if you put in 6% or more of your pay, Company X would stop at the 5% mark since the benefit is only up to 5% of compensation.

This type of benefit presents a challenge to the conventional notion of paying off all debt first and then investing. With a match, you are able to realize a 100% gain risk free within the account as long as you contribute.

Because of this, it may be more profitable to contribute to a retirement account before paying off debt, including high interest debt. In general, unless you are struggling and can’t pay your bills, you should always contribute to a retirement account enough to get an employer match.

Now, if it makes sense, you can contribute above and beyond the employer match. Given all of the tax benefits these types of accounts have, you should strongly consider contributing above the match. However, there is a cap on how much you can contribute. As of 2020, the cap is $19,500 per year ($26,000 if you’re age 50+) for 401(k)s, 403(b)s, and TSPs.

One thing to keep in mind is that if you miss contributing to the match or making any contributions in general, you cannot go back in a subsequent year to “make up” for it. Only when you reach age 50 can you contribute beyond the maximum contributions.

Vesting

In order to keep employees, many companies employ a vesting schedule in which you get to take ownership of match contributions over time. If you leave a company before you’re said to be vested in employer contributions, you don’t get to take those contributions with you. To illustrate this, let’s look at the following vesting schedule for Company X:

30% after the 1st year of service

60% after 3rd year of service

100% after 5th year of service

With this type of schedule, you start getting partial ownership of employer contributions after you’ve been with the company for a year, but don’t get full ownership of those contributions until you’ve worked for them for 5 years. So in this case, if you left Company X after 4 years and the balance in your retirement account derived from employer contributions was $10,000, you’d only get to take $6,000 of that with you.

It’s important to note here that when an employer contributes to your account, those contributions go into a separate bucket from your own contributions. The percentage that you “vest” in only applies to the bucket containing the employer contributions. Your own contributions are always owned by you.

Also, some organizations have what’s known as a cliff vesting schedule. Rather than being partially vested after X years of service, this schedule will make you 100% vested after the required years of service have been met. Therefore, this is really an all or none situation. And because every employer is different, it’s extremely important for you to understand what type of schedule is used by yours.

The Downside to Retirement Plans

For all the good things these plans do to help you save for retirement, they come with strings attached. While not an exhaustive list, the big ones for you to be aware of are: plan fees, investment restrictions, early withdrawal penalties, and required minimum distributions.

1. Plan Fees

With the exception of the TSP, where all expenses are presented in the individual fund expenses, each plan will have additional administrative fees that are layered onto the fees charged by the individual investments themselves.

While there’s not much you can do about these while working for a company, they can impact the decision to keep money in a previous employer’s plan or transfer it (rollover) to a new employer’s plan. Plans are required to disclose these fees but don’t make it easy to find that disclosure. If you’re curious about a plan’s administrative fees, search the plan documents for a 404(a)(5) disclosure document.

2. Investment Restrictions

In general, unlike a brokerage account or individual retirement account (IRA), the retirement plans we’ve been talking about don’t let you invest in whatever you want. You’ll typically be restricted to whatever investment options the plan chooses to provide. This usually won’t prevent you from building a decent portfolio within the account, but you might be forced to use investment options that charge exorbitant fees compared to those you’d find elsewhere.

3. Early Withdrawal Penalties

Since these plans are designed to fund retirement, the IRS will hit you with a penalty if you decide to take money out early. How early? The ripe old age of 59 ½ (as of 2020). If you take a distribution or cash out one of these plans, you’re going to get taxed like crazy for the year you do it.

If the money you take out came from traditional contributions, that amount will get added to your taxable income AND you get the privilege of paying an extra 10% of the amount as a penalty!

If the money came from Roth contributions, you don’t pay tax on the contributions BUT you do get that same treatment as traditional contributions for any gains you may have which will get intermingled with your withdrawal of contributions.

4. Required Minimum Distributions (RMDs)

The IRS also doesn’t want people hoarding money and not paying taxes on it indefinitely. At some point, they want to start milking your retirement account for tax dollars. To do this, they subject money derived from Traditional contributions to RMDs once you hit age 72 (as of 2020). Once you reach that age, you must withdraw an amount equal to your account balance as of December 31st the previous year by a number determined by the IRS.

The IRS calls this number a life expectancy factor. In retirement, these RMDs can significantly increase your tax bill and impact the long term viability of your retirement savings. This is one area where Roth IRA contributions can really shine since they’re not subject to RMDs. (Note that RMDs are still required in a Roth 401(k))

Hopefully, you now have a better understanding of how these types of plans work and how to take advantage of this important workplace benefit. While there’s much more to these things in terms of what you can do with them and how to optimize them, you should be able to start thinking about how they’ll fit into your overall plan.

In our next post, we’re going to dive into the basics of investing and the typical options within retirement accounts, so stick tight!

If you are looking for some extra help your 401k or retirement planning, you can book a free call with the YFP financial planning team.

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YFP 105: How Jamie Leigh Tipton Started a Compounding Pharmacy

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Jamie Leigh Tipton on Starting a Compounding Pharmacy

Jamie Leigh Tipton, a new practitioner from North Carolina and owner of Tipton Compounding Pharmacy, shares her journey of starting her own business and the importance of building a strong financial foundation to be able to do so. Jamie Leigh’s mom, Janet, also joins the show to talk about her involvement in the family business, how she helped Jamie Leigh graduate debt free and why she has encouraged Jamie Leigh to start her own business.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Jamie Leigh Tipton completed her Doctorate in Pharmacy from Creighton University School of Pharmacy in May 2017 after studying pre-pharmacy at Western Carolina University. She has always had a passion for compounding and dreamed of bringing this unique practice to her hometown of Franklin, NC.

During her time in pharmacy school, Jamie Leigh spent time working with Professional Compounding Centers of America (PCCA). This PCCA education included compounding boot camps, advanced compounding techniques, and drug information research on how compounded medications affect each individual patient. Her research was published in one of PCCA’s Apothagrams which is distributed to compounding pharmacists throughout the country.

Jamie Leigh participated in educational and training rotations at various locations such as retail pharmacies, compounding pharmacies, hospitals and a local veterinarian practice. She also took part in the National Community Pharmacists Association (NCPA) student ownership workshop and was accepted to attend Live Oak Bank Pharmacy Ownership Student Summer Program.

While a pharmacy student, she was a member of the Rho Chi Honor Society and received many awards including the 2017 Merck Award for academic excellence. As the owner of Tipton Compounding Pharmacy, located in the beautiful mountains of Franklin, NC, Dr. Tipton’s dream has now become a reality.

Summary

Jamie Leigh Tipton grew up in Franklin, North Carolina and knew that was where she wanted to continue her life. She was accepted to an online pharmacy program and knew early on that she wanted to open her own pharmacy. Being enrolled in an online program allowed her to continue to network and connect with her community.

Jamie Leigh graduated from pharmacy school in 2017 at the age of 23. She was single with no children and had built a strong financial foundation. She knew that if she entered into a comfortable six figure pharmacy job, she would have a hard time leaving to start her own business. With a lot of support from her family, Jamie Leigh was able to graduate from pharmacy school debt free and open up Tipton Compounding Pharmacy shortly after graduation in her hometown.

Her family is committed to supporting Jamie Leigh and the business. Her mother and aunt work in the pharmacy, truly making it a small family business. Janet, Jamie Leigh’s mom, encouraged her to follow her dream and to find happiness in what she was doing. Janet and her husband helped Jamie Leigh pay for college through her high-end real estate career and their 529 college savings plan. Scholarships helped to fund Jamie Leigh’s last couple of years of school.

Jamie Leigh explains that the family members working at the pharmacy aren’t taking a salary yet and are investing back into the company. This will set back her personal retirement age, however they knew that going into the business and have planned to fund retirement accounts. One of the biggest pressures Jamie Leigh feels is the financial sacrifices her family has made to make this dream a reality. Jamie Leigh knows how much they have invested both financially and with their time.

Jamie Leigh shares that she did a lot of online research in the beginning stages of starting the business. She says that you have to be 100% passionate about the business you’re wanting to begin. If you are, you’ll be dedicated in doing research and learning more which are the best steps you can take to start your own business.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. I’m excited to welcome Jamie Leigh Tipton and her mom Janet to the show to talk about their journey opening up Tipton Compounding Pharmacy in Franklin, North Carolina. Before we jump into the interview, let me introduce Jamie Leigh. She completed her doctorate of pharmacy from Creighton University School of Pharmacy in May 2017 after studying pre-pharmacy at Western Carolina University. She’s always had a passion for compounding pharmacy and dreamed of bringing this unique practice to her hometown of Franklin, North Carolina. And she did just that, which we’ll talk about here during today’s show. During her time at pharmacy school, Jamie Leigh spent time working with Professional Compounding Centers of America, also known as PCCA. This education with PCCA included compounding boot camps, advanced compounding techniques, and drug information research on how compounding medications affect each individual patient. Her research was published in one PCCA’s apothagrams, which is distributed to compounding pharmacists throughout the country. Jamie Leigh participated in educational and training rotations at various locations, such as retail pharmacies, compounding pharmacies, hospitals, and a local vet practice. She also took part in the National Community Pharmacists Association Student Ownership Workshop and was accepted to attend Live Oak Bank Pharmacy Ownership Student Summer Program. While a pharmacy student, she was a member of the Ro Chi Honor Society and received many awards, including the 2017 Merc Award for Academic Excellence. As the owner of Tipton Compounding Pharmacy, located in the beautiful mountains of Franklin, North Carolina, Dr. Tipton’s dream has now become a reality. So Jamie Leigh and Janet, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.

Jamie Leigh Tipton: Thank you for having us.

Janet Tipton: Thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I am so excited to do this interview. And I want to give our listeners some quick backgound to how this episode came to be and why I am so energized and excited to finally be at the point of recording this. So several weeks ago, Jamie Leigh joined the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group, and in her responses to the questions we asked to join the group, she mentioned owning her own compounding-only pharmacy as a new graduate, so a graduate of 2017, as I mentioned in the bio. We have not yet featured an independent pharmacy owner on the podcast, and I thought it was unique that Jamie Leigh had taken the path that she did, owning her own pharmacy, right out of school. So I reached out to Jamie Leigh to schedule a time to talk via phone to learn more about her story, and when I called the pharmacy, Jamie Leigh’s mom, Janet, picked up the phone as Jamie Leigh was compounding a troche before the store opened. Janet and I had the opportunity to talk for a few minutes, and I quickly realized that this was a family business at its core, all hands on deck. I myself grew up in a small business family, and this got me excited, this got me fired up on so many levels, as I’m excited to be their story to the YFP community as I’m hopeful it will inspire some of you out there that have entrepreneurial dreams, that have the entrepreneurial itch, whether that be a side hustle or a full-time venture, to take one step to pursue that desire and passion. So Jamie Leigh, let’s start with your decision to pursue an online PharmD program at Creighton. So obviously, Franklin, North Carolina, is home, you pursued an online pharmacy degree program at Creighton, which I believe is one of the only if not the only one that’s out there in the country. So why did you make that decision to pursue your pharmacy degree online?

Jamie Leigh Tipton: I had done a lot of research with different pharmacy schools, and I knew that I always wanted to stay in Franklin. And I also knew that staying here would enable me to be able to network better. I always had dreams of owning my own pharmacy. At the time, I wasn’t sure what that would mean, at the time. But I always wanted that to be my end goal. And so when I was researching different ways to do cyber (?) pharmacy school, distance pharmacy school, whatever that meant, Creighton at the time was the only distance pharmacy school. And they were really good. I just kind of took a leap of faith there and applied and was able to interview and get in. And it is a great program. They’ve been doing it for over 20 years, so I felt comfortable that this wasn’t their first go-around with distance learning. And that really helped kind of set the path of being able to network here, setting up everything here to be able to not only do the pharmacy school but also do all the research I needed to hopefully set the path of opening my own eventually.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I love how strategic you were with the decision. I mean, we know that small business, especially in small communities in town, it’s all about that networking, the community, and being a part of that community. And making that decision to stay involved in the community and build that network while pursuing your pharmacy program, as you mentioned, a quality program that had been doing it. And I think that that speaks to the vision that you had in terms of getting the company started. So in your bio, as I had read earlier, you mentioned an interest in compounding pharmacy that you had early on, which I think is somewhat unique not only in business aspirations but also knowing a very specific area of practice of pharmacy that you wanted to do. Where did that interest in compounding pharmacy come from?

Jamie Leigh Tipton: When I was in pharmacy school, when I first started, I really didn’t understanding completely what it was, especially since there was not one in Franklin. So it wasn’t like growing up in a big city where you have a lot of different compounding pharmacies and knew what it meant. So when I started in school and learned a little bit more about it, I thought it was so interesting because I actually had a friend that would not, could not swallow a pill. And I always wondered if she got sick in any way, what would she do? And learning that through pharmacy school made me very interested in it, knowing that the children, animals of the world that can’t just swallow a pill, as easy as it sounds, would need help along the way. And that’s kind of where my passion more started, just learning about in pharmacy school all the different things that you could do. And then they also offered an extra course that you could take through PCCA, and that’s where I was able to fly to Houston and see and be able to do in the lab a bunch of different compounds, depending on the unique need. And that’s all kind of in pharmacy school where it started.

Tim Ulbrich: So let’s fast forward a little bit to 2017. You graduate with your PharmD, and at this point, you decide as a new graduate that you’re going to take on opening your own pharmacy from the ground up, building and all. And we’ll talk about that in a little bit. Why did you want to take that path rather than working for somebody else, having a stable, six-figure income? And was there one or two deciding factors that really pushed you in this direction to open your own business?

refinance student loans

Jamie Leigh Tipton: I always knew that some form of ownership was what I wanted to do. It was interesting because I was born and raised in Franklin. And when people would see me, they always would say, “Oh, I can’t wait until you graduate so that you can open a pharmacy.” It’s almost like the whole community kind of knew the plan, even probably before I did. So just being able to go through the process — on the fourth year of rotations, it was probably the most evident that I wanted to do that. And so with the whole family, it was a lot of discussions throughout all of the fourth year, getting prepared, because as soon as I graduated, we already had a lot of the building blocks in place to be able to do this. And it is a risk. I was 23? When I graduated and single with no kids. So the risk for me was different than probably other people graduating at different times of their life. But it, to me, was a risk worth taking. I felt like I’m not one that likes change very much, so if I would have gone immediately into a six-figure position at a community pharmacy or a chain, that I would get so comfortable and used to what I was doing that it would be really hard to leave afterwards and go and do such a big risk later on in my life. So for me, it was just one of those things, you start at the very beginning while you’re going and just don’t stop until you can make the dream happen.

Tim Ulbrich: I really appreciate what you said there about the difficulty of it being if you’re comfortable in that position, if you’re comfortable with a six-figure income, especially if you’re living up to that income, maybe there’s a home that’s involved, there’s other expenses, you know, pursuing that dream, not impossible, becomes a little bit more difficult versus jumping right out of the gate and being able to establish expenses and other things off of a lower income and salary, especially as you want to invest that money back into the business. So I’m going to ask you one more question about risk before I put your mom, Janet, on the hot seat because I think that, you know, as I heard about your story to begin with, it wasn’t like you were buying into an existing store that had a proven business model but rather, you were starting this from the ground up. So obviously, that means you most likely did a needs assessment, you did a business plan, you really evaluated what was out there. Did you ever weigh at one point, should I buy into an existing business versus start something from the ground up? Or did you know and have clarity that you wanted to start your own thing from Day 1?

Jamie Leigh Tipton: I talked to a lot of different pharmacists along the way and kind of what we gathered from them was either open your own business from the ground up here in this area or move away and open one eventually after getting some experience. Some different pharmacists were saying the city may be the place to go. We’re about two hours away from both Atlanta and Asheville, North Carolina, so that was one thing they were saying is maybe it would be best to try the city or maybe it’s best to get compounding experience for a few years first before you open it. And for me, wanting to stay here in Franklin, the options were a lot more limited because for me, I didn’t want to go to Atlanta and open up my own because I know for me, it was a community aspect of wanting to stay where I’ve been all my life. So really, as far as working somewhere, buying an existing one in Franklin, that wasn’t an option for us just because there was no compounding pharmacies in Franklin at the time. So to buy an existing one would have meant to move away, which at the time, I didn’t want to do. I wanted to stay in my hometown and grow it from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think the reason — in part, one of the reasons I asked that question I think is I’ve talked with others that are thinking about opening up their own pharmacy. I think sometimes, there’s comfort in going into an established business model. But that often comes with a higher price tag or a lower equity position or other things as you’re establishing that business. So really identifying if there’s a market, where there’s a need and a gap in that care, and obviously, you’ve identified. But the compounding-only aspect of your business I think certainly, that’s an opportunity worth pursuing. So Janet, first of all, thank you for joining us as well. And you know, when I went home after Jamie Leigh, you and I talked a few weeks ago, I was so jacked up because as a father of three boys and soon to be a fourth boy, very, very passionate about teaching my kids about entrepreneurship and encouraging them in their dreams around business. I was really struck in a good way about how supportive and encouraging that you’ve been to Jamie Leigh to pursue this entrepreneurial dream that she has. And I feel like many parents — and it may be a generational thing, and this is certainly a very broad statement — but many parents I think would encourage their child to take the “safe” and comfortable option, which would be in pharmacy the contract that has a six-figure salary. So tell me a little bit more about where that encouragement comes from and why you have been so encouraging to Jamie Leigh in this journey.

Janet Tipton: Well, I’m not going to lie, it would have been really easy to encourage her to use her doctorate degree and get a job as a pharmacist somewhere else and not have the headaches that come with owning a business. But on the other hand, it was weighing the options of the rewards of owning your own business and the benefits that come with that. I had been raised in that spirit. My father owned his own business. My grandfather owned his own business. So it was something that was familiar to me and that I was raised in. So encouraging her to follow her dream and do what would make her happy was our No. 1 goal.

Tim Ulbrich: And so as I understand it, a big part of this — and I’m going to ask Jamie Leigh more about this a little bit later about the financial position that allowed her to take on this opportunity — but as I understand it, you were able to help Jamie Leigh with paying for college so that she wasn’t graduating saddled with student loan debt as many pharmacists are right now, with the average being about $160,000 when they come out of pharmacy school I think really handcuffs — to refer to the golden handcuffs — really handcuffs what you’re able to do in terms of if you have high student loan debt, that might put you in a position where you have to depend on a six-figure income or a corporate position. So how did you practically manage to do that, to save up, to help her pay for college? And what are some strategies that our listeners might employ that are thinking about trying to do something similar for their own kids when they send them off to college, whether that be in the short-term or the long-term?

Janet Tipton: My background is in education. I got my Master’s in education and taught for several years. But then things changed, and my path changed to real estate. And I became a broker in real estate and worked in the high-end golf and lake community locally. By doing that, by pursuing real estate, honestly, that gave us the vehicle of being able to save and invest for Jamie Leigh’s education. And I funded and invested in a 529 college plan. And there were a lot of questions at that time as to how much to invest because you don’t know at the time you’re starting to set up a 529 plan where they’re going to attend college, if it’s going to be a four-year college, if it’s going to be an eight-year college, if she’s going to get a degree, you know, just with her Master’s or with her doctorate. So it’s kind of a guessing game to decide how much to invest to begin with. But I’ll have to be honest that the 529 plan really helped us be able to fund her college. It did not all of it because I guess at the time, I really wasn’t anticipating the doctorate, but her having academic scholarships helped fund the last couple of years of her education. So it was very important to us, all the pharmacists that are out there, they know how much it takes to get their degree and how much they work toward it. So we, my husband and I, always wanted to try to help with education and get that funded. So thankfully, because of the 529 plan, we were able to do that.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. So it sounds like a combination of 529 played a big part in that, scholarships, a piece of that, real estate investing, you know, that certainly played a portion of that as well. And so Jamie Leigh, my follow-up to that is, you know, how important was having a solid financial foundation? Here, specifically, no student loan debt and being able to take on the risk of starting your own business.

Jamie Leigh Tipton: It was critical. I would not have taken this risk had I had student debt. It would have been too much to bear with all of the weight and the stress of opening and running a business along with the stress that would be added of paying off student loans. It would be too much to have both.

Tim Ulbrich: And so in addition to the student loan debt, were there other aspects or things that you would recommend to those that are looking to start their own business around emergency funds or other things in terms of building that solid foundation that you can approach your business with confidence and be able to take on some of that risk?

Jamie Leigh Tipton: We knew starting out that no one would be taking a salary family-wise just so that everything we make could go back into the business. So I’ve always been a saver. Any Christmases, birthdays, graduations, I’ve saved all the money and tried to invest a lot of it. Just like I said, the unkown of knowing what I would do eventually but something around ownership, so I’ve always tried to save everything I’ve got gift-wise in order to invest some of it to have a little bit of the wiggle room while we get up and running, knowing that there wouldn’t be a salary for awhile and going from there.

Tim Ulbrich: So let me ask you about that for a minute because I think often, we can get enamored and caught up in the things that come along with starting your own business and it’s exciting. But there’s also the reality of things that are challening, like deciding to invest in the business and not necessarily taking a salary for a period of time. And so I’m guessing some of our listeners are thinking, how are you personally reconciling, you know, eventually at what point might you take a salary? And does this mean delayed retirement savings? Or are you counting on sort of the equity in your business as being an asset that you’re building over time? So how are you reconciling that component of when to take a salary versus putting that back in the business and potentially delaying retirement savings because of that?

Jamie Leigh Tipton: (inaudible) an estimate of how long we’re not going to take a salary versus starting to take a salary, so we have that planned out as far as a timeline. And it does kind of set back the retirement as well. But we’ve kind of planned for that too that eventually, getting into a Roth IRA and different pieces of retirement. I know a lot of pharmacists sometimes hit the high end of the Roth IRA and can’t invest, but as we’re growing, I hope to be able to take some of what I make and put it to that and keep investing in mutual funds as we grow. But yeah, we’ve always had kind of a timeline of at this certain point, we’ve got to start taking a salary. But it’s just as we can and are able to, we are trying to always take everything and put it back into the business.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think too, it’s important for our listeners to understand, you know, the value of equity and ownership in a business certainly has a monetary value. And I think from many different perspectives, which we won’t necessarily get into detail here, but can play a very significant part from building long-term wealth, tax advantages, eventually at some point, maybe a sale of a business, but as you’re putting some of that sweat equity in, there’s obviously value that’s being built through that equity as well. So Janet, one of the questions I wanted to ask you is I know when we talked a few weeks ago, you had mentioned as you built this pharmacy from the ground up with Jamie Leigh, very much being a family type of endeavor, the building, as I understand it, has the pharmacy that is in one part of it, but the other part is open to eventually be rented out I’m guessing as commercial real estate. Talk us through how you made that decision collectively to take on potentially more loans to build a bigger building but also have the long-term vision that some of this could be used for real estate investing.

Janet Tipton: I think my background as a broker in real estate has helped in that because obviously, anybody that’s in real estate knows that it’s location, location, location. So when I was thinking and hearing from Jamie Leigh that that’s what she was kind of wanting to do, I started looking around in our town for some land and trying to find a location that I thought would be good. And we were able to find the land that our pharmacy has been built on, and it’s, in my opinion, a great location that’s right on our main street, it’s adjacent to our local hospital. And so we were able to obtain the lot and plan the building. And yes, we have Plan A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H and so forth. But one of the things that the way that the lot lays, we were able to build not only the pharmacy on the top level, but the way the land lays, we were able to also include a lower level to our building. And we are finishing that off and going to rent that. As a matter of fact, it’s going to be finished at the end of this month. And we have most all of it rented. And so that will also help us to be able to bear the financial burden that comes with building a building. And then hopefully, if hopefully this business will go well, but even if not, I think this will be a great real estate investment for Jamie Leigh down the road to have a building, to have a location, to have the land, and to have the rental income.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I will say if our listeners need a visual, when you Google “Tipton Compounding Pharmacy,” a picture comes up of the building. And it is beautiful, so I love the design, I love the look and the feel of it. And I would also encourage our listeners to check out the website, which you also both have done a great job with, TiptonCompoundingPharmacy.com. I think the website looks great. It’s a great design and I think really nicely describes your services and the vision that you have for the company. So great work on that. Jamie Leigh, one of the things that stuck out with me when we talked a few weeks ago is that you said you would have been wondering, what if? your whole life if you didn’t pursue this dream. Tell me a little bit more about what you meant by that.

Jamie Leigh Tipton: The stress of owning a pharmacy is a certain beast. But going to bed every night with a really comfortable job but not necessarily a job that you have always dreamed of is even more of a mental taxation on you. I would have hated to wonder every day what if it would have worked? but be too afraid to try. One of my favorite shows is Shark Tank, and this week, Daymond John put on social media a quote that I thought was really relatable to this question. He said, “It’s scarier to watch your dreams slip from you than it is to know you tried to make them happen.” And he also said, “Who’s farther, the person that took a step forward and fell? Or the person that stood still and did nothing?” And I think both of those quotes were really good. He was responding to someone saying, “Should I open the dream business I’ve always wanted to do?” And I think that’s so true. I mean, there are good days, and there are bad days of owning your own. But if it’s truly what you’re passionate about and what you want to do, I think it’s worth it because the wondering every single day of what if? would just be such a heavy burden to have to bear.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I think with small business or any business in general, I think sometimes we talk so much about the monetary piece. But I know, for me personally, while the business aspect is critical — if you’re not generating revenue and a profit, it’s ultimately not a business, so that has to be there. But at the end of the day, the feelings of creativity and autonomy and being able to create vision and execute vision, that, to me, is just so incredibly rewarding. And I think that it’s something that people should keep in mind if they want to pursue something of their own. So let’s talk a little bit about, you know, the other side of owning your own business. As I mentioned earlier, it’s not always peachy along the way. And there certainly are struggles. So question for both of you — and we’ll start with Janet — you know, what are some of the struggles, maybe some of the sacrifices that have come from having a family business and jumping into this venture of starting this compounding pharmacy?

Janet Tipton: Well, my husband and I, we kind of lived our lives in reverse. We did a lot of traveling and went to places we wanted to go when we were younger. Both of us were, at the time, in education, so we had summers off. And we traveled there. So now that I’m in the retirement age, I really had no desire to go anywhere else. Kind of been there, done that. So there’s no point of pleasure trips in our future. We have given that out. So yes, there’s financial sacrifices, and there are many sleepless nights, but Jamie Leigh is our only child, and as parents, we wanted to do whatever we could to help her get started in this business. And so that’s what we’ve done. And you mentioned about this thing of family business, and that’s true. I am pretty much in the retirement age, my sister, my only sister, is also at retired. And so both of us work here, trying to help Jamie Leigh. So it just is at the right time in her life and our lives to try to pursue this dream of hers. And like I said, hopefully this will work. And if it doesn’t, then at least it’s a good investment, and we’ll go to the next plans if we need to. But we’re going to do everything we can to try to make this venture of hers happen.

Tim Ulbrich: So Jamie Leigh, what about for you? And I would also follow that up with, you know, one of the things I think I would be thinking about owning my own business, especially if I had my family involved, might be some of that pressure of having the family involved and wanting to have it be successful, especially if there’s been an investment in that. So talk us through that aspect and then just also globally, what are some of the struggles and challenges that you have had in terms of owning your own business?

Jamie Leigh Tipton: I would say (inaudible) that the whole family basically sacrificing all their time in retirement time, it is one of the probably the biggest struggles I have, just because I know how much they’ve sacrificed financially in time to try to make this work with me. I know that they say they did a lot of their traveling before I was born, so I hear wonderful stories about it, but at the end of the day, retirement’s also a time to where you can just sit and do nothing if you want to. So I know what all of their sacrificing just to make my dream come true. So it is a lot of pressure. It’s a lot — like she said — a lot of sleepless nights worrying about different things, feeling sometimes like the weight of all of this on your shoulders. But then having their support means everything. But it is kind of a back-and-forth. You basically eat, sleep and breathe the pharmacy. On the weekends, we sit and talk about it. On the weekdays, we come and work. And then at nights, we talk about it some more. And there’s really no extra time, at least at this stage, to have a life and vacations, really, not much of anything except just doing everything we can to talk and plan to just make this work.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. Thank you both for sharing there. And Jamie Leigh, my last question for you, as I know we have many listeners that might have entrepreneurial dreams, whether that’s their own business, a side hustle, but I think often are struggling with where do I start? And where do I draw inspiration from? Besides Shark Tank, which I also love, is there a podcast, a book, a blog, a TV show, or something that you’d recommend to our community that they may be able to draw inspiration from?

Jamie Leigh Tipton: I really just did a lot of online research. I’ve read different financial books and Dave Ramsey books, the “Rich Dad, Poor Dad,” just different things, financial bonds. I think really, above everything, the one thing I would say if you want to open a business, you have to have passion for it. It’s not for the faint of heart, so if you don’t have passion for what you’re doing, it won’t work. It just takes too much time and effort to not be completely dedicated and happy with what you’re doing. I don’t know that there’s a TV show or a book that will do anything more than what just pure passion can do. I had found a quote earlier that I liked that success isn’t made in a microwave, it’s made in the crockpot, and that’s so true. It’s not an overnight success. I know some different books, some TV shows, you get the wonderful overnight successes, but it takes time to grow and build a business. And it takes a lot of planning, many months were spent just talking for hours about the big picture but also short-term goals that it takes to get there. When I first started pharmacy school, one of our head advisors said that pharmacy school was like eating an elephant. You have to do it one bite at a time. And I think it’s the same way in opening a business. So ultimately, I think the main thing you have to have is passion for it. And then if you have the passion, then you’ll be dedicated enough to research different areas and depending on if it’s a pharmacy or if it’s a totally different business, there will be different podcasts, different shows and books that will meet that need of learning more information. But overall, you have to be dedicated to want to pursue this way.

Tim Ulbrich: That is great, great wisdom. So thank you for sharing. And I would encourage our listeners to check out TiptonCompoundingPharmacy.com. I also know and have seen Tipton Compounding Pharmacy on Instagram and Facebook group. And if any of our listeners are in the North Carolina area, around Franklin, North Carolina, I’d encourage you to check out the store and have a chance to talk with Jamie Leigh and Janet as well. So thank you both for coming on the show, for your time, for your willingness to share your journey. I know it has inspired me in a significant way, and I’m confident it’s going to do the same to our listeners. So thank you both very much.

Jamie Leigh Tipton: Thank you.

Janet Tipton: Thank you.

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YFP 104: Jason Long’s FIRE Journey

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Jason Long’s FIRE Journey

Jason Long joins Tim Ulbrich to share how he retired from his retail pharmacy job at the age of 38. Jason dives into what the FIRE methodology is and how he and his wife saved for retirement.

About Today’s Guest

Jason Long is a husband, former retail pharmacist, early retiree at age 38, self-made millionaire, distance runner, author of three books, and advocate of rational thought. He holds a Bachelor of Science cum laude in Chemistry from Middle Tennessee State University and a Doctorate in Pharmacy cum laude from Mercer University. Since retirement, he has volunteered as a tour guide at a natural history museum, a teacher for a non-profit ESL program, a marathon pacer at numerous charity events, and a voter registration assistant. He is the current state half-marathon champion and former state full-marathon champion. His interests include Japanese culture, classic cinema, classic music, astrophysics, running, cycling, swimming, traveling, reading, painting, and playing video games.

Summary

Jason Long retired from his retail pharmacy job at age 38. He was able to retire at such a young age by seeking out FIRE (financial independence, retire early). Jason shares that FIRE is a lifestyle choice that’s starting to spread to more people. This methodology is less interested in wealth accumulation and is more focused on leading a meaningful existence, in Jason’s opinion. Jason was able to save up enough money to where the revenue from his investments will provide enough income to live on, meaning he no longer has to work for money.

Jason shares the FIRE is based on the Trinity study which focused on sustainable withdrawal rates for retirement spending. If you have a million dollars, you can withdraw 3-4% a year, giving you an income of $30,000 to $40,000 a year. Jason says that you have a 95% chance to still have money left if you’re withdrawing this amount for 30 years. He and his wife have closer to a 3% withdrawal rate and he’s not worried about them running out of money.

In June 2017, Jason retired at age 38 after saving just over $1 million. He says that it’s still surreal that he’s been retired for two years as it hasn’t fully sunk in yet. Jason decided to pursue the FIRE route in 2005. He was in his last year of pharmacy school and had come to the realization that pharmacy wasn’t what he wanted to do in life. He became curious to know where he’d be in the future if he lived at the same standard of living as his parents did but earned a pharmacist’s salary. He used a spreadsheet to start calculating scenarios and found that if he was earning $105,000 but only spent $35,000 a year, around the age 39 or 40 a return on investment from his portfolio would exceed the cost of living. He didn’t realize that this was a methodology that others were using. In 2015 he found others who were also following this FIRE path.

To reach $1 million, which was in savings only and doesn’t include social security or home equity), Jason and his wife really stuck to only spending $30,000-35,000 a year. His starting salary as a pharmacist was $110,000. The first step they took was to buy a house, but not a mansion. Then, all their money after maxing out 401ks and IRAs, went into Vanguard accounts. They steered clear of getting caught up in big buckets that drive up expenses, like expensive homes and cars. Jason reminds listeners that houses depreciate in value and land appreciates and feels like viewing home ownership as an investment is a myth.

Jason explains that you have to shift your focus and remember that earning $30,000 a year gives you a better standard of living than 99% of people who have ever lived on this planet and to not compare yourself to others. He also shares that it’s necessary to invest beyond a 401k or IRA if you’re wanting to retire before age 59 ½ as there are federal limits to those accounts. Lastly, he shares that happiness doesn’t come from having material things, instead it comes from being financially secure, from having your life in order and being content with what you have.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Excited for this episode. I’ve been wanting to talk about the FIRE movement for some time, FIRE standing for Financial Independence Retire Early, and I’m glad to have the opportunity today to do that alongside of Jason Long, a pharmacist that retired at the age of 38. So Jason, welcome to the podcast.

Jason Long: Ah, thank you for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited to be here, and I have to start by telling our listeners, which I think is just an indicator of what FIRE is all about, when we were trying to schedule this interview, you know, I think I first started out by proposing several dates and times, and your response was something along the lines of, “Hey, I’m retired. I can do this whenever.” So here we are, and obviously, flexibility of time and freedom of time is one of the positive aspects of Financial Independence Retire Early, and we’ll talk about that. And when I heard about your story, it was published in the New York Times, and we will reference that and link to that in our show notes, and that story from the Times mentioning your retirement at the age of 38, leaving a job making roughly $150,000 a year, I thought, we have to have him on the show. And I think that there’s many pharmacists that will not only be interested in your story but may have similar aspirations and want to know why you did it and how you did it and certainly what could be the path for them to move into that in the future. So before we jump into the specifics of your story and how you achieved early retirement, let’s talk about what exactly is FIRE. I think many people may not be familiar with that concept. So Jason, give us a summary of what is Financial Independence Retire Early. What is this movement all about? And what defines someone achieving FIRE status?

Jason Long: Well, I don’t know it’s so much of a movement as it is just a lifestyle choice that’s starting to grow. I think people, my generation, younger, are becoming a little less interested in wealth accumulation and just living a meaningful existence. And the whole thing with being financially independent, retire early is that you have saved up enough money to where the revenue from your investments will provide enough income for you to live on. That can be a small amount or that can be a large amount. It’s just up to the individual. But yeah, it’s basically just not ever having to work for money. That doesn’t mean you can’t work or that you don’t have something going on on the side, but in my instance, I don’t really have anything going on. I’m just living off the income from the investments.

Tim Ulbrich: So we’ll come back later and talk about your withdrawal and how you’re functionally doing this, but just to build off of what you said, is there kind of a specific rule of thumb in terms of, you know, x amount is needed to be able to draw this much so that you can live off the savings? Knowing that that could be different from one person to another. But what typically is that definition in terms of what is needed to get to that point of achieving FIRE?

Jason Long: Sure. There’s some debate around that. But the generally agreed upon amount is based on something called the Trinity Study. It was done a few years ago to see what percentage you could withdraw on a year-to-year basis. And the way that works is — we’ll just use some round numbers for example. If you have $1 million, you can withdraw something like 3-4% per year, that would be $30,000-40,000. The Trinity Study said that if you withdrew 4% per year and adjusted upward for inflation, and you didn’t adjust that $40,000 amount based on market performance, that you would have a 95% chance over 30 years to still have money left. Turns out the original researchers have amended that to actually be 4.5% because expense ratios have dropped. The cost of managing your money has actually decreased over the years. A lot of people will do it themselves or they’ll use fiduciaries. But for a longer timespan, a lot of people are looking at 4%, maybe 3.5%. In our instance, we’re actually a little closer to 3%. So there’s no historical precedent for a 3% withdrawal rate.

Tim Ulbrich: So just again, for our listeners to get a step back, the idea being here that you’re building up some type of nest egg, for lack of a better word, you know, it could be $1 million, it could be $1.5, $2 million. And then some percentage, you know 3-4%, which obviously what we’re getting to is that what you’re going to be living on and what you need in that nest egg is largely driven off of your expenses and that percentage and of course trying to maintain that amount so you’re not having to dip into that over time. So let’s get into for you specifically, June 2017, the day you retired at the age of 38. You noted on your blog it was the day before you’re 20th anniversary from high school graduation. And at the time, you had savings of just over $1 million. So talk us through what you were feeling at this point in time. I mean, obviously you made the decision that you were going to retire. Were you anxious? Were you excited? All of the above? Talk us through that situation.

Jason Long: Well, honestly, it was a little anticlimactic. You reach a certain amount that you want to get to, and that’s a great day. But it’s not like you’ve reached the finish line, you know? There’s a few things you have to brush up on. And I don’t know, I guess it was kind of surreal to realize that, you know, I had just called and put in my work notice. And two weeks from then, I would work my final shift and then never have to go back to it. There was a sense of relief, I guess, that I’m not — you know, it’s been almost two years, and I don’t think it’s fully sunken in yet. But anxiety, no. Like I said, there’s no historical precedent for a 3% withdrawal rate to fail. Now, that doesn’t mean there’s not going to be unforeseen expenses or that there couldn’t be some future event that might bring catastrophe. I mean, there’s always a chance of an astroid strike or nuclear war or what have you. I mean, but all we have to go on is historical precedent. And we have even a slight buffer above that, I think maybe 3.2%. If you were to have retired in 1968, I think is the worst year you could have picked due to a flat market and large inflation. But you know, even now, we’ve moved up to $1.2, so it’s so far out of the realm of danger that I don’t ever give it any thought.

Tim Ulbrich: Right. Which I’m glad you brought that up, Jason, because I think often, people hear FIRE, and they think risk and without really digging into the math and what do the numbers say, and I appreciate your comments around kind of the historical perspective and 3%. And I would argue, as I think you would agree with me, I mean, people who are $200,000 in debt that have no savings, that are spending all of their income working for whomever, that that job could change tomorrow, go away, whatever. Obviously, there’s a risk position in that that has to be considered as well.
Jason Long: Another risk that a lot of people overlook is that you risk wasting your life working 30-40 years in a job that you really despise. I mean, so is the alternative of going broke early really that bad?

Tim Ulbrich: Well, and I’ll talk about this at the end, but I’m grateful to be in a position that I love what I do each and every day, and I know many pharmacists do. Some do not. And so I think if for somebody for whatever reason does not and there’s not another opportunity that’s available or for whatever reason the transition can’t happen or maybe somebody has found themselves in a career path that wasn’t necessarily a great fit, then I think the FIRE option and really digging into the math, as we’ll talk about here in a little bit, is certainly a viable option. But if nothing else, as I think about the Financial Independence, Retire Early, I’m passionate about independence period, whether or not there’s the retire early component of it. As I’ve talk about before on this show, having options and having flexibility is always a good thing. You never know what’s going to be thrown at you in terms of life events, and you never know what may change over the course of time, either related to your interests or the profession or other variables. And so when did you, Jason, when did you determine that you were going to pursue this route? And talk us through not only when that moment was or roughly that moment was — because obviously, there had to be a timeline of planning to go to a place to accomplish what you did — but also what motivated some of that decision to pursue early retirement.

Jason Long: I think it was 2005, I was in my last year of pharmacy school. And I had kind of come to the realization that it wasn’t exactly what I wanted to do in life. And you know, how I got to that point there is a different story altogether, but I was putting some spreadsheets around, and I was just kind of curious — I was like, if I lived at the same standard of living that my parents had, but I made the amount of money that a pharmacist does, where would I be at financially at age 40, 50, 60, 65? Just running the numbers just to see. And I think I had assumed — I don’t know what pharmacists were making. I think maybe $105,000-110,000 a year. And you know, we grew up working class. Just my dad worked, and my mom took care of the kids, but made about $35,000-40,000 a year. And then I assumed maybe like 3% interest, which was pretty safe at the time, just based on a CD or whatnot. And I plugged those numbers into the spreadsheet, and I noticed a strange thing kind of happened around age 40. I was 26, so somewhere around age 39-40, I noticed that the Return on Investment from the portfolio exceeded the actual cost of living at that point.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Jason Long: So I was like, this is strange. You could foresee, you could feasibly have the amount of money to live off of by not working. And being naive like I was at the time, I just kind of thought, well, hey, I’ve discovered something here. And I went all the way to probably 2015 never having encountered another person who had discovered this. And then I kind of did a Google search one day. I was like, well, yeah, that was kind of stupid of me. There were plenty of people. And you described it as a FIRE movement. So yeah, that was the day back in ‘05, I said, you know, I don’t think I really want to be a pharmacist. I was like, but you know, I’m three-quarters of the way across the street. I’m going to go ahead and cross it and put in 12 years, 13 years, 14 years, and try to make the best of it that I can. And then when that day comes, I can kind of transition over to something else if I want to do something else or if I just want to sit around and play video games and watch movies, I can do that too.

Tim Ulbrich: So I’m going to read something from your blog before we jump in and talk about the saving strategy and how you actually did it and how much you were saving because I think it resonated to me a little bit about your journey and put some life to kind of your passion and motivation. From the blog is, “It’s been said that retirement is merely a decision to stop trading time for money. Since I no longer need more of the latter to sustain my standard of living and since I do not enjoy, never have enjoyed, the primary method at my disposal to acquire the latter, I have decided that the former is of more value to me going in life.” So you mentioned, Jason, kind of your last year of pharmacy school, 2005, and then obviously you had a 12-year time period roughly to that point where you actually retired. And so we look at that point of retirement at the age of 38, you’ve got a little over $1 million, so that’s a fairly short runway to get to a net worth of $1 million or more. And to clarify for our listeners, we’re only talking here in terms of savings. So we’re not talking about home or other assets, and we’ll come back to that in the future. So we’re purely talking about savings that had been accrued over time. So how did you practically do it? For those that are listening, thinking, hey, maybe this is a path that I’m interested in in some shape or form, you know, what percentage of your income were you saving? And where did you put it? And how did you get to that point?

Jason Long: Sure. Like I said, I think I started out at about $110,000 a year and was spending $30,000 a year, not including the house payment I believe. It may have been $25,000 plus the house payment.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Jason Long: But my first step was to, of course, buy a house. And I say house, I don’t say mansion or McMansion, or something on a cul-de-sac near a golf course, you know. If you want those things, that’s great. But you really have to step back and ask yourself, is it going to make you happier? Is it worth trading perhaps 10 years of your life to have a nicer place, maybe even just to impress people that you don’t like? But you know, our answer was a 1,600-square foot house in a neighborhood in Ohio. And I think that house was $120,000 or $125,000. We paid that off in about two years, maybe. And after that, all the money went into — well, of course, at the time, we were doing the 401k, IRA, contributions. I think after that, it pretty much transitioned — well, after a few years, we had moved back to Tennessee and had gotten more land and we built another house here. But after all the house and real estate was paid off, which was maybe around 2010, all the money went into a Vanguard account. And there are a different number of companies you can use. I like Vanguard because they’re nonprofit, and they have low expense ratios. But yeah, you just basically open up an account and decide what you want to invest in. There’s, again, a lot of healthy debate about your asset allocation. But the main things that I look for are index funds. And that is basically just a — you can think of a mutual fund as being a collection of stocks. But an index fund is a collection of basically all stocks on an index, like an S&P or the Dow or the Nasdaq or whatever. Vanguard offers one called the ETSAX, or basically all U.S. stocks. So instead of trying to pick and choose or knowing or pretending that you know things about a company that you don’t, you can invest in the market as a whole. And there’s very little management that goes into that. Therefore, there’s very little expense that Vanguard charges you to manage that fund. I think it’s at least maybe .04% per year. But you open that up, and anything in excess of what you can contribute to your 401k and your IRA, we would put into that.

Tim Ulbrich: I love the approach of low expense. And you mentioned the advantage of those coming down historically. I mean, I personally have funds, .03%, .04%, .05%, .06%. And so you, I think from the blog I saw, you rep basically three major funds, roughly 60% in U.S. stock index fund, 20% in an international index fund, and 20% in a municipal bond index fund. So keeping it simple, keeping the expenses down. So am I correct, then, as I look back and hear you say making over $100,000 a year, obviously started at $110,000, that went up, your expenses roughly $30,000 a year. So you were saving north of 70% of income? Or were there other expenses not accounted for?

Jason Long: No, it was about 70% per year. I think it’s probably important — some people are going to be listening to this and pulling their hair out over $30,000 a year. That’s not probably feasible out on the Coast. If you’re in New York, LA, Silicon Valley, whatever, you’re listening to, you’re paying $30,000 a year probably in just rent. But the cost of living out in rural Tennessee is a lot lower. So yeah, I think I ended up — we started out maybe about $30,000. It may have moved up to about $36,000.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Jason Long: One of the things you have to watch out for is something called lifestyle inflation. You know, that’s where you’re starting to make more money, and then you start to get more tempted about buying things that maybe you want and don’t really need. So you’ve just got to make your choices there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I know you’re very well, obviously, versed in this. And our community is as well, but I talk a lot about cost of living, as you mentioned, West Coast, Northeast, other cities, other areas, obviously even within Ohio, cost of living varies significantly from one part to the next. But pharmacists’ salaries don’t adjust accordingly, in terms of at least accounting or offsetting that. I mean, maybe slightly. You know, for example, let’s say an average pharmacist’s salary in Ohio, let’s say is $110,000-115,000, maybe that’s $120,000 to $125,000 to $130,000 out in California, but that percentage bump is nowhere near obviously the cost of living difference from rural Ohio, rural Tennessee to the West Coast. And as we think about retirement and what you need and coming up with that calculation, determining that number, that expense number is really what’s driving that. So if you’re making $100,000 a year, and your expenses are $90,000 a year, that runway to retirement and what you need obviously is much, much longer. If you’re making $100,000 a year, and you determine that you can swing it either through strategically cutting expenses, cheaper on home, cheaper on car, strategically choosing where you live, obviously, there’s some sacrifice here in the equation, although we talked about what you’re weighing that against as a potential pro, but that is a much different nest egg that you need. And obviously, your situation of what you’re living off of I think highlights that perfectly. So I do want to highlight, Jason, to just build off of what you said, I mean, buying a relatively small home, affordable home, $120,000-125,000, paying that off quickly, you know, for me — and I’ve seen this in my own life but also in working with many other pharmacists — home and cars tend to be, you know, probably the two big buckets that can drive up expenses. Certainly many other things that go into lifestyle creep, but you know, if a home is 40-50% of your take-home pay, it’s going to be difficult to keep these expenses down. So for those listening that have not yet purchased a home, I think strategically looking at the home buying, especially if this concept is a priority, and keeping the cars down, really focusing on money going into assets and things that are growing and not depreciating value is really important.

Jason Long: Yeah. You know, a lot of people don’t realize, houses depreciate in value.

Tim Ulbrich: I agree.

Jason Long: There has been a lot of research on this. Land appreciates, houses depreciate. There’s been a myth that home owning is an investment. And it’s just not. At best, you can probably hope to break even.

Tim Ulbrich: Break even, yep.

Jason Long: And you know, that’s fine. You know, I’m not judging how other people live. But to get philosophical about it, people need to ask themselves, like I said, are they going to be happier having a large house? You know, George Carlin, comedian, once said — and I’ll clean this up a bit for the podcast.

Tim Ulbrich: Appreciate it. We don’t have the explicit rating, so I appreciate that.

Jason Long: He said, “People buy stuff they don’t need with money they don’t have to impress people they don’t like.” And when you realize that happiness doesn’t come from having things, happiness comes from outside. It’s from being financially secure, it’s from having your life in order, it’s from being content with what you have. When you realize that, and you realize that you’re probably not going to be that much happier in a $.5 million home versus a $100,000 home, you know, that opens up all sorts of possibilities for you. The house and the car, you know, if you’re the kind of person who wants people to look at you and think highly of you and envy you because you’re driving the $50,000 Lexus, that’s fine. I’m not going to judge how that person lives, but I guarantee that the person driving that car is not any happier for having that car than someone who’s driving a dependable $10,000 car.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Great stuff there. I think a lot for our listeners to take away and reflect on there as they think about their future plan and what matters most. And I would reference to our listeners, and we’ll link in the show notes, you know, Jason, I mentioned earlier, often — before we recorded — I mentioned often when I ask a group, “Hey, have you heard of FIRE?” typically, I don’t get a whole lot of hands raised. But when I say, “Hey, have you heard of Mr. Money Mustache?” people are like, “Yes, I have!” So I’m going to link to an article back from 2012, I know it’s a very popular article but really highlights the importance of looking at the math on this, and that article’s called the shockingly simple math behind early retirement. And you know, essentially what Jason’s highlighting with his own journey, what that article highlights is that saving a significant percentage of your income and keeping your expenses down really changes the projected timeline to retire. And so, for example, saving 50% of your income towards retirement can move that timeline of retirement from 50 years down to less than 20 years. So again, for you, when you talk about your journey and putting numbers into a spreadsheet, whether it’s looking at an article like this, I think it’s a matter of doing the math, looking at the expenses, and asking yourself some more of those philosophical questions that you had talked about.

Jason Long: Yeah, let me say one other thing. People who question whether or not they want to live on a $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 a year or whatever, it’s good to remember that $30,000 a year is higher, gives you a better standard of living than 99% of people who have ever lived on Earth. And if you find that I don’t think I could live that cheap, then that statistic should probably tell you, it might be a good idea to reevaluate your position in life.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, Jason, I’m so glad you said that. One of the point of comparisons I often use because I think it’s helpful for pharmacists to shift the point of reference away from peers because it’s not a helpful comparison.

Jason Long: Comparison is the thief of joy.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, yes. And often, I’ll talk with resident that, you know, residents’ salaries have actually come up, some in the mid-$40,000’s, low $50,000’s. And I hear things like, I can’t save anything, I can’t make any headway in my student loans. And I get it, cost of living is different, no judgment in terms of that. But if you shift the point of comparison to what you just mentioned or the median household income for a family of four in this country is in the low- to mid-$50,000’s. I think shifting that point of comparison can help put some of that into perspective. So one of the things I want to talk about, Jason, and you mentioned in your story, I read in your blog, is that you’re purely looking at the numbers based off of the investments that you’ve grown north of $1 million. And you’re obviously trying to draw that down — or not draw that down, I’m sorry — live off a percentage of the growth so that you’re not drawing from and letting that fall below $1 million. But you are not including any of your assets in terms of house or land or other assets, or you’re not banking on social security or inheritances, equity in the home, other types of things, correct? You’re purely just looking at the savings component?

Jason Long: Yeah, I would say equity on the home would be an absolute last resort, you know, absolute worst-case scenario, not even historical precedent but an unprecedented territory would you have to rely on house equity or social security or inheritance or anything like that. I fully expect those things to be there, but I’m just not going to rely on them.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. So in terms of the withdrawal plan, currently, you mentioned the numbers you’re working off of. So what does that practically look like month-by-month if you look at the percentage that you’re drawing from, trying to keep the portfolio above $1 million?

Jason Long: Yeah, so basically, just assume $1 million and assume $30,000 a year of living expenses. Quick, back-of-the-envelope math, that’s 3% a year. A lot of people may say, “Well, hold on. The average return on investment in the market historically, adjusted for inflation, is 7%.” And some people may say 10%. Dave Ramsey’s one of them who greatly overestimates what the market returns. But the reason you can’t withdraw 7% a year is something called sequence risk. And that is when is the bad year going to come?

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Jason Long: And these scenarios, these simulations, you can play out basically shows that if you get the bad years up front, it’s going to have a lot more impact than having the bad years toward the back.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Jason Long: So you have to put that extra buffer in. You can’t just assume that you’re going to get the steady 7% a year. You will run out of money if you do it that way. So yeah, we basically just withdraw out whatever we need to every month. In our case, we’re on about 3.5% withdrawal, minus whatever the side income might be coming in from a variety of different sources. But yeah, it’s just log on every month and see where you’re at and withdraw what you need to pay off the credit card and rebalance and go from there.

Tim Ulbrich: So Jason, I’m sure many pharmacists are thinking, hey, I’ve got an employer match in a 401k or should I be taking advantage of those types of retirement accounts that have tax advantages, 401k’s, 403b’s, Roth IRAs, and you mentioned earlier that you did a little bit of that. But obviously, you’re depending on assets that you can draw before the age of 59.5 without a penalty. So any words of wisdom or advice for people that are thinking about trying to achieve retirement status prior to the age of 59.5 where they would need funds? And how they might think about balancing where they’re putting their money?

Jason Long: Yeah, if you’re wanting to retire before traditional age, before 59.5, it’s going to be necessary to invest beyond 401k and IRA. There are federal limits to what you can contribute to those. So you’re going to have to invest in taxable accounts. And you put that into some investment firm like, like I mentioned, Vanguard. You put all your money into that after you’ve contributed to the 401k, IRA. And like you had said, you have to be mindful of the fact that it’s not easy to get your money before 59.5. There is a clause called 72T. Basically, if you convert your IRA over to an annuity and take a certain amount of withdrawals per year based on your expected living, you’re allowed to withdraw it without penalty. I don’t know exactly how it works. I don’t plan on having to dip into that. We have enough in our already taxed accounts to go until maybe 60, 61, 62. But yeah, you have to be mindful that there is a 10% withdrawal penalty on the 401k. And that’s on top of any taxes you’d have to pay because it does count as regular income. I’m probably not the best person to ask about all that. I’m, of course, not a financial advisor. You just have to be mindful that you’re going to have to pay penalties if you withdraw the wrong way. And that’s going to increase your cost of living.

refinance student loans

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think the takeaway there for our listeners is to be thinking about those logistics in advance and where you’re putting your money and some of the tax implications and things if this is a desire that they have to retire before traditional age. So Jason, one of the counterarguments to the FIRE movement is, you know, you’ve got 50+ years of living and satisfaction from work and social connections from work and fulfillment and won’t you get bored? You know, that type of a thing. Which I know is a very individualized situation and really depends on current fulfillment from work and hobbies and other types of things. So talk us through a little bit of that and what you’re currently doing with your time and hobbies and interests and things that you’re working on and exploring.

Jason Long: So basically, I guess it would be fair to say I do what I want. I have a ton of hobbies. I do volunteer work. I have picked up a lot more of the housework and errands and things like that since I’ve left. I’ve been able to spend more time with family. As far as like hobbies, you know, like anyone else, I read and watch movies, play video games. I build things. I exercise, I run, I cycle, swim, go to the gym, cook, kayak. I picked up some new things: golf, started collecting baseball cards again, which is something I haven’t done since I was a child. I volunteered. I’ve been a tour guide at Natural History Museum. I have taught English as a second language to adults here for a nonprofit. I volunteered in voter registration. I’ve done litter pickup. It’s just a lot of things to keep you busy. And if for some reason, you eventually run out of things, you can always go back to work, you know? There’s nothing saying you have to stay this way. But yeah, I’m pretty much on my own schedule. And I do what I want when I wake up.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think you probably answered this question for me in the list of things that you’ve been doing and even new things that you’ve picked up, but I have to ask the question, do you have any regrets looking back?

Jason Long: Zero.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. Awesome. So one of the questions I have is I’m guessing we have many of our listeners that are hearing your story and thinking maybe for the first time or second time, this might be a path they want to pursue or at least be on a path toward financial independence, whether or not they decide to retire early. However, many of our listeners, what we know is the average student loan debt, $160,000 a year, we have some salary compression that’s going on, 32 hours often is sort of the new 40. So for a graduate today coming out with $150,000-160,000 of debt, let’s say they’re making $100,000 a year, is FIRE an option for them? I mean, is that a path they can pursue? And if so, what advice would you have for somebody listening today that is looking at their debt load and looking at things and saying, I’m not even sure this is an option.

Jason Long: It’s always an option. It’s just depending on the circumstances, it may take you a little bit longer to get there than it did, say, 10-15 years ago. As far as the steps, you know, it’s going to vary on an individual basis. It’s going to be dependent upon what your student loan interest is. It’s going to depend on what your mortgage interest is. We — personally, I took the safe route, and I paid off the house first. The house mortgage was only 5% a year. Well, I could have put that money in the market instead and make, on average, 7% a year. So maybe that wasn’t the smartest choice, but it was probably the safest choice. If a person has student loans at, say, let’s say they have some at 7% and they have some at 4% and then they have a house at 6%, it makes sense to go ahead and pay off the 7% student loans first and then the 6% house and then the 4% student loans. Or you could maybe go the route of well, I’m just going to not worry about that. And I’m going to invest in the market first. And you know, maybe that works out for you. And maybe it doesn’t. The safest route is to just pay off your highest interest rate loans first. And work your way down from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and if I could build on what you said there, you know, since your number is pretty much on target, many of the students coming out today with their pharmacy loans, unsubsidized, 6-7%, but there are options out there that I think somebody could look into as a strategy to allow them to invest aggressively. So we’ve talked before on the podcast about loan forgiveness, which certainly comes with risks that need to be evaluated, although appropriately evaluating the risk and the benefit, but obviously being a strategy that could allow for freeing up additional moneys to invest and invest more aggressively at a younger age, looking at competitive refinancing rates that can lower your interest rate and incentivize investing. So really looking at the options that are available out there if this is a path that somebody wants to pursue. So Jason, let me end here by asking for your recommendation for something that helped you on your journey, learning more about FIRE and kind of strategies around pursuing this, whether that be a book, a blog, a podcast. Is there a resource you would recommend that was helpful for you?

Jason Long: I have a pretty unconventional one. It’s “Walden” by Henry David Thoreau. I’m sure a lot of people have read it in high school or whatever. But it’s basically just the accounts of one man going to live off in nature for a couple years and realizing, hey, I don’t need money to do this. I’m happy. And then he would have visitors come over and be like, well, why are you eating this? Why don’t you eat nicer things? And he’s like, well, you’re only eating nicer things to compensate for the stress that you’re experiencing in your daily life. I kind of like to think of that as maybe the original Financial Independence book. It’s probably not, but it is pretty influential on my mind mindset as far as not wanting things I don’t need, just being content with what you have. Because like I said, I didn’t even realize this was a movement, a so-called movement or a thing until about 2015. There’s a lot of good stuff out there. There’s — some of the people that got me started — or not got me started but kind of helped me along the way there toward the end was on Reddit. There’s a sub-Reddit on there called “Financial Independence” that people can basically share their stories, share their goals, ask questions, and it’s a helpful community. You know, there are maybe a few naysayers on there. You have to be mindful of the fact not everyone is fortunate enough to have a six-figure job, you know. A lot of people say, well, it’s all hard work and this and that. You know, I couldn’t disagree more. No. You did nothing to be born in this country. You did nothing to be born in this era. You did nothing to be born intelligent. You did nothing to be born with good, helpful parents. You know, it takes a lot of different things to be in this situation. But when you find yourself in this situation, yes, it does require hard work and discipline to be able to do it. But always be mindful of the fact that if this is a thing that you can even think about doing, there are a lot of factors that went into that that’s beyond your control. You got lucky. The rest of it, the hard work, that’s up to you. So don’t go preaching to other people about how you can do it. If you go on these forums, be mindful that there are people on there who may not have had the same opportunities as you did. So be careful about what you say because there are real people online, and they can be hurt by, you know, what you say on there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think, Jason, it’s a great reminder that there is not one right financial path or plan. And I think what I really appreciate you helping me and our listeners think about is some more of those philosophical questions about why are we doing what we’re doing? And really evaluating, self-reflecting on that and then for some listening, this may be the path. For others, maybe a version of this, maybe something different. But you know, I think for each of us to focus on our own and certainly find resources and support. But in no way do we have to judge the path that others are taking. So Jason, I appreciate the time that you’ve given here. I appreciate you sharing your story with our listeners. And I wish you the best going forward.

Jason Long: I enjoyed it. Thank you.

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YFP 103: Wholesaling Real Estate as a P3 Student

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Wholesaling Real Estate as a P3 Student

Montrell Taylor, a P3 student at Howard University, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about his experience in wholesaling real estate. Montrell shares why he chose real estate investing as a side hustle and how he balances being an entrepreneur with pharmacy school.

About Today’s Guest

Montrell Taylor is a third-year doctor of pharmacy candidate at Howard University College of Pharmacy. He currently serves as the Howard Chapter President of APhA-ASP and had the opportunity to serve as a Delegate at the 2018 APhA Regional and National Conference. He also interns at Walgreens Pharmacy and tutors first-year pharmacy students.

Montrell is a native of Memphis, TN and is a middle child. He holds a Bachelor of Science in Biochemistry from Middle Tennessee State University. A true entrepreneur, Montrell is the Co-Founder of Taylor Brother Investments, LLC, where he supports private investors with buying and selling of real estate.

Taylor Brother Investments is committed to providing solutions to any homeowner’s dilemma. Montrell has a passion for making neighborhoods healthy and productive, one home at a time. You can find him on social media or contact him via email.

Summary

Montrell Taylor is a rising P3 student at Howard University. He knew that he wanted to be a pharmacist when he was in high school from to his experiences with community pharmacists and having a pharmacist in his family. He graduated with a degree in Biochemistry and is currently in pharmacy school at Howard University.

After receiving his undergraduate degree, Montrell had some down time and wanted to make more money than he was earning at a temporary job. He and his brother knew that real estate creates the most millionaires each year. Montrell and his brother, Stanford, discovered wholesaling as a way to get into real estate investing with no money and without having to use your own credit. They studied and researched wholesaling and learned from Rico Smith, but didn’t pay anything for classes or training.

After extensive researching, Montrell and Stanford jumped into wholesaling as a way to make money and also find financial freedom. Montrell wanted to find something that brought in an income without having to depend on exchanging his time for it.

Wholesaling assigns a property from a seller to a buyer. The wholesaler makes money by acting as the middle person between the buyer and the seller. First, you have to find a property to wholesale. Montrell and Stanford drive around to find vacant homes, cold call and also post bandit signs encouraging people to call them if they are looking to sell their home. Once a home is found, it goes under contract as the seller assigns the property to the wholesaler. The wholesaler doesn’t put any money down, however the contract says that the wholesaler has equitable interest in the property. From there, the wholesaler connects with an investor or buyer for the home and transfers the contract to the buyer. When a deal closes, Montrell is paid an assignment fee which is the difference from what he got the contract for to what the buyer paid.

Montrell and Stanford have been in wholesaling for two years and closed 10 to 15 deals in 2018. This year, they have already closed 8 deals and are hoping that it’s a more successful year than last year. Montrell shares that you don’t make money right away from wholesaling. You have to learn a specific skill set to make money and have the right mindset to close deals.

Although Montrell is in pharmacy school, he’s able to balance his busy schedule. He says that we have more time than we think we do and stays focused by blocking out distractions, creating and sticking to a stick schedule and uses weekends to catch up on studying.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. As I’ve shared with this community before, we have lots of exciting goals and aspirations around real estate education and content for the YFP community here in 2019 and beyond. I’ve shared that Jess and I have a goal of buying our first rental property in 2019, and I’ve got the vibe that many pharmacists out there in the YFP community have similar aspirations or at least have a desire to learn more about real estate. Therefore, we want to bring you some more examples of pharmacists active in real estate investing that can help teach, encourage and motivate us, the YFP community, to learn more. On episodes 009 and 109, Carrie Carlton shares her journey of getting started with real estate and building out her portfolio, which has diversified her assets and provided her with an alternative income stream. That’s why I’m excited about this week’s episode and the chance to interview rising P3 student Montrell Taylor to talk about his journey in real estate investing through wholesaling. So for our listeners, for some quick background, I had the chance to meet Montrell out at the APhA annual meeting in Seattle, Washington, back in March 2019 through a mutual connection, Alex Barker. Many of you know Alex. He’s the creator of the Happy PharmD, a frequent guest on this show and author of the book “Indispensable.” After having a chance to talk with Montrell, I was blown away at his maturity, his professional demeanor, his entrepreneurial mindset, and his ability to understand the importance of diversifying your investments. You know that feeling when you meet someone, and you think, wow, they have the “it” factor: that drive, that mindset that will result in them doing great things? Montrell has that “it” factor, and I’m pumped to be able to share his journey with you, the YFP community. So Montrell, welcome to the show.

Montrell Taylor: Thank you for having me. Glad to be here, glad to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited for this. I genuinely meant what I said. You know, I think I even shared with my wife that evening, like when you have those interactions where you meet somebody, and you can just tell they have the fire within them, you have that factor. And your future is bright. So I’m excited to be here in person, in Baltimore, at YFP headquarters to do this interview. So one of the questions I don’t think I asked you when we met is how did you get connected with Alex Barker? What was that backstory?

Montrell Taylor: So with Alex Barker, I actually seen him on Instagram one day. And I was just kind of interested because I seen him actually on an ad. And a couple days later, I seen him again on LinkedIn. So me and him actually connected through LinkedIn, and we set up a phone call because I noticed that he also was an entrepreneur. So we just got to talking, and I mean, our conversation was just real easygoing. We both talked about how we both wanted to make sure we were able to succeed in our businesses. And he was just able to give me like a lot of great information about just being an entrepreneur. So I think just both of our mindsets kind of clicked once we had that first conversation. And then we were thinking, we should have some sort of meetup to talk to more investors at the APhA conference. So last year, I went to the first — I went to my first APhA conference.

Tim Ulbrich: That was Nashville, right?

Montrell Taylor: Nashville, correct. And my mind was just blown. I just seen so many opportunities and got the chance to network with so many different people. And I just knew that the next year, which was this year, I was excited to go back. And then when I seen that Alex was also going to the conference, me and him just connected like, you know what, let’s try to set up a meetup at the conference. So we did that, and that was actually the first time we ever met in person. So the same time I met him and you was literally the first we’ve ever met.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s all about networking, right?

Montrell Taylor: All about networking. It’s important because I always hear so much: Your network is your net worth. And I think pharmacy school has shown me how important that is because I’ve got a chance to meet so many people, just off of networking, you know? And people get so kind of scared about the idea of networking because it’s kind of like you’re trying to pick somebody’s brain to benefit from it in some way. But the only thing you’re doing is just building relationships. And that’s what business is all about.

Tim Ulbrich: I love it. So before we talk about your experiences with real estate and more specifically, with wholesaling, I want to talk about your journey into pharmacy and get a little bit more for about where your career as a pharmacist is going as you get ready to go into your P3 year. Obviously, I’m sure you have many questions still to answer about that. So why pharmacy? And why Howard? Talk us through that journey.

Montrell Taylor: OK, so why pharmacy? I’ve had that question a lot. Pharmacy is something that I wanted to do ever since I was in high school. Every time I seen a pharmacist, I just would have this perception of them of like they’re just smart, they’re personable, I can talk to them about my issues and things like that. So as I progressed through school and I started to learn about how the body works and I took chemistry and biology and stuff like that, I was amazed at the fact that how these small molecules and compounds, how they can change the composition of the body. So when I learned about that, it was interesting to me. And after I got my degree in biochemistry, that’s when I really had a great understanding of how the body works. But I wanted to increase my knowledge and just learn about why do people get sick? And how do these small pills create a small — like how do they create a difference in people’s daily functions and stuff like that? So that’s what really made me want to be a pharmacist. And I also have a family member who is a pharmacist. And then when I seen her progress through school and I just see the lifestyle that she’s living, it motivated me to be a pharmacist. And the reason I chose Howard was because first, I wanted to get out of Tennessee because even though I enjoyed growing up there, I kind of wanted to experience something new. So one day, I was just applying to different schools; I applied to a school in Georgia, and I applied to Howard. I only applied to two schools. So once I came to Howard for my interview, I was just amazed at talking to people, and they told me about how great the environment is and how great the learning experience was. I fell in love with the campus. And it was just funny because when I actually got accepted to Howard, I actually called my mom, and me and her just — we broke down and just started crying on the phone because I was just so excited to actually get a chance to explore Howard because I just heard so much about the school. And then the fact that I was able to actually — I’m able to actually be a student at one of the best schools in the nation is just, is great.

Tim Ulbrich: So shoutout to Howard.

Montrell Taylor: HU.

Tim Ulbrich: We had another guest from Howard before, but it’s awesome. And hopefully we’ll have some opportunities to work with Howard as well in the future. So biochemistry major.

Montrell Taylor: Biochemistry major.

Tim Ulbrich: Now you’re in pharmacy. And now we’re going to add on to that real estate. So help me make this connection of why side hustle with real estate? I mean, those things don’t often go together, right? What was the connection there.

Montrell Taylor: They don’t. So real estate makes the most millionaires each year. So after I graduated, which was in 2016, me and my brother, Stanford Taylor, are like — none of this would have been possible without my brother.

Tim Ulbrich: Where is he located?

Montrell Taylor: He is currently in Memphis, Tennessee. And he primarily works on our Memphis market.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Montrell Taylor: And once me and him graduated from college, we worked a job, and we had so much free time because I was waiting to interview for Howard and all these different schools, so I had a break. And we actually worked at a call center. And it was fine. We made decent money, but we wanted something more, right? So it was just something clicked in our heads one day, and we actually watched this video from a guy named Rico Smith. This is a guy who’s pretty famous in Memphis from wholesaling.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Montrell Taylor: And after watching his video, he just talked about how you have to have a certain mindset if you want to live the life you actually want to live. And we watched the video, and he is also the one who spoke about wholesaling. And then when we learned that this is a way that you can get involved in real estate without using any money or credit, then we really had no excuse not to at least try. So I just remember one day, me and my brother were just talking about getting started, and we were talking about like making a name for our company and stuff like that. And we both just agreed that if we wanted to be serious about actually starting in real estate, we had to just go ahead and just do it. So we just did it, and it’s took off ever since.

Tim Ulbrich: I love that story because I think what stand out to me there is that out of 100 people that may listen to a video like that or read a book on real estate or whatever, maybe one is actually active. Right? It’s the mindset, it’s being willing to take a little bit of calculated risk.

Montrell Taylor: Right. And then it’s just so funny because us as we as humans, like we put limits on ourselves subconsciously. Like let’s say, for example, if you wanted to start a business. Nobody’s going to tell you, you specifically can’t start a business. The only thing that’s stopping you is you.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Amen.

Montrell Taylor: That’s the only thing! And I think that one time, when I listened to you guys’ podcast, you guys made a great point when you said, you have to get out of the way of you. Like that makes so much sense because we get so caught up in what make it wrong and we don’t have the money or the time. We limit ourselves to so much that we can do. And it’s just crazy when we just have a completely different mindset, we can do — I feel like we all can do just great things.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great stuff. A lot of wisdom there. So what was the goal? When you jumped into wholesaling, you know, here you are, getting ready to apply for pharmacy school, obviously, some cash, of course, is the goal. But were you at the time thinking, hey, this could really lower my indebtedness? Or this could diversify my assets. I mean, what was the goal of jumping into real estate at that point in time?

Montrell Taylor: The goal was having freedom. Freedom and, of course, money because, you know, it’s great to have a job. It’s great to have a nice-paying job. That’s great. But the fact that you have to exchange time for money, that was the idea that I didn’t want to have to completely depend on. So it really was the freedom because we wanted to have a business where we could first of all, we could control it because we are the owners. So since we have the, you know, like the power to do whatever we please as far as our own business, we really wanted to have freedom and money.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Montrell Taylor: Because money isn’t everything. But you know, to do the things you want to do, it takes money because the country that we live in has very heavily relied on economics and cash flow. So the fact that wholesaling gives us the opportunity to have freedom and make money, it was the perfect combination.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think so many people say you’re not going to get happiness from money, right? And I think that that’s true. But I think where you can derive happiness is from the freedom and the choices. And we talk all the time on the show about having options, right? So whether that be you want to start your own business, maybe you want to stay home with the kids, you have a sick family member you want to care about, you want to really pursue some philanthropic efforts that are important. Doing those things and having the ability to do those stress-free are some of the things that provide happiness.

Montrell Taylor: Right. And then, I mean, it’s also jobs out there where you can actually have freedom and make money. So I’m not talking bad about any type of job, but I just know me and my brother personally, we wanted to have something for our own. Because my father, he also owns a business. He owns a cell phone store. Excuse me. So just being able to see him, like he could always when he wanted to, let’s say take off for one of my brother’s football games, he just doesn’t go to work. You know? So just small things like that and just being able to, you know, have that freedom.

Tim Ulbrich: So before I ask you and we get in the weeds on wholesaling, I have to know, like you and your brother must get along then, right? I mean, how does that work between the two of you?

Montrell Taylor: My brother is literally the exact same person as me. Like we act the same. Like my best friend, my road dog (?), everything. I also have a sister as well, and we’re the exact same. My sister is younger than us, and we wanted to build this business so we could take care of the entire family because my sister is, she’s the smartest one out of all three of us. She’s the smartest one, but I just know that me and my brother, we wanted to do the groundwork so that we can, so that we don’t have to call on our sister to do work for us.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, sure.

Montrell Taylor: So I mean, we act the exact same. We get along a lot. I mean, we’ve had a couple of arguments, but when me and him argue, it’s just funny because I don’t know if you’ve had this case, but sometimes, when you’re giving someone constructive feedback, specifically to another male, they kind of take it offensive, right? So when me and him are talking about different things as far as business goes, the fact that we’re brothers, it’s like, we can argue all day. But at the end of the day, we’re still going to be brothers. Like you’re not going to get rid of me. We’re going to be here forever. And actually, growing up, we used to get in trouble if we fought each other, right? So we just always had this strong bond, and we just always had the mindset that whatever happens, we’ll have each others’ backs.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think iron sharpens iron, right?

Montrell Taylor: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think when you get to that point where you’re comfortable with that feedback of each other, ultimately, the business is going to get better.

Montrell Taylor: Right, because it’s been so many times where I’ve got a great idea from him, and he has done the same for me. For example, I was just talking to him three days ago. And he was telling me how sometimes, he does Uber Eats. And once I get into wholesaling, something people do to find sellers is post bandit (?) signs. And these are like the signs you see around the neighborhood, like “We Buy Houses,” and stuff like that, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, yeah.

Montrell Taylor: So something that he said that just made so much sense to me, he was like, “Man, you can do Uber Eats for two reasons that will benefit. Well, really three reasons. First of all, you make money. Secondly, you find new places about the city,” because I’m not from here. I’m from Memphis.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, so you’re learning, right?

Montrell Taylor: I’m still learning, right. So I’m still learning the area and things like that. And then third and most importantly, and since we’re driving, like dropping off orders and stuff like that, it also gives you the opportunity to put out bandit (?) signs, right? So it’s like you’re making money by driving —

Tim Ulbrich: Double dipping.

Montrell Taylor: You’re double dipping!

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, it’s awesome.

Montrell Taylor: And you also are improving your own business because you’re attracting sellers by putting out these signs. So we always just feed off each other with great ideas.

Tim Ulbrich: One of the things I want to go back to real quick, you know, if Tim Baker were here, he would be preaching, “Find your why. Know your why. Have clarity around why you’re doing what you’re doing.” And I love what you said about first, financial freedom, but then also the mission around caring for family. I mean, it sounds like so much of that fuels what you’re doing. So I think this is just another great example for our listeners, as you’re looking a side hustle, whether it’s pharmacy-related or not, like what’s the point? What’s the goal? What are you trying to achieve? Because ultimately, that’s going to fuel you. And we’ll talk here in a little bit how you balance this with other things. But you know, it’s not like you have all the time in the world. So there’s sacrifice. But you have a why behind it that’s driving you —

Montrell Taylor: I do, I do.

Tim Ulbrich: Through that period. So that’s really cool.

Montrell Taylor: I do.

Tim Ulbrich: So talk to us about what is wholesaling? What does that term mean? And maybe give an example of something that you’ve done that will help our listeners understand that.

Montrell Taylor: OK, so wholesaling is a way to essentially make money in real estate without using any of your money or using any of your credit. So wholesaling is essentially, you are assigning a property from a seller to a buyer. So you play the middleman role.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Montrell Taylor: So let me kind of break it down a little bit more. So the first part of wholesaling is finding a property. And there is a number of ways to find properties. You can actually drive around the city. And if you are to see a property that looks vacant, you could try to get in contact with the owner and just see if they’re looking to sell it. Like I said, you can also post bandit signs. Bandit signs will be the most effective way to find sellers because people will contact you if they’re looking to sell. So that kind of saves you from having to go out and find sellers.

Tim Ulbrich: So people actually call those numbers on the corner.

Montrell Taylor: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: I see those all the time.

Montrell Taylor: Right. Like people see them and it’s kind of like, who’s going to call them? But a lot of people call those numbers on the bandit signs.

Tim Ulbrich: So in those two examples, you’re trying to identify properties that are not yet on market?

Montrell Taylor: Correct.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Montrell Taylor: Because we want off-market properties at a discounted price because let’s say if you were trying to buy a house, fix it, and put it back on the market, if the house is already at a market price, then you don’t have much room to buy it and put more money into it to fix it and put it back on the market, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Montrell Taylor: So the key is getting properties at a discounted price that is way below the market value. So after you get a property that — after you find a property, the next step is to, like I said, get in contact with the seller. So after you talk to a seller, you’re going to get this property under contract.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Montrell Taylor: Which is an assignment contract, which means that the seller is essentially assigning the property to you. So let’s say if I’m the wholesaler in this sense, and let’s say you’re trying to sell your home, you call me from a bandit sign. You say, ‘Hey, Montrell, I have a home in Baltimore, and I’m looking to get about $40,000 for it.’ What I’ll say is, ‘I don’t know if I can get you $40,000, but I can take a look at it and I can see, you know, if we can get close to that number.’

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Montrell Taylor: So I meet you in person, I see the home, and I say, ‘Well, Tim, I can get you about $32,000.’ And you say, ‘OK, fine. Great.’ So what I’m going to do is I’m going to get this property under contract with you for $32,000 because that’s all you want in order to be satisfied.

Tim Ulbrich: You’re not having to put any money down or anything at this point, right?

Montrell Taylor: No money down. But what this contract says is I have equitable interest in this property. So now I have the property under contract with you for $32,000. Now let’s say I go to Tim Baker. I know that he buys homes, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Yes. He likes to pay a lot for them. Margin’s going to be good here.

Montrell Taylor: OK, great. That would be great. So I will go to Tim Baker and say, ‘I have this property in Baltimore that you can buy it, you can fix it up, you can either put it back on the market, you can rent it out,’ but the main thing that Tim Baker wants to see is the ARV.

Tim Ulbrich: Right. So explain that for our listeners, the ARV.

Montrell Taylor: ARV is known as the After-Repair Value. What this is is after you buy the property and put it into basically brand new condition, like HGTV type condition, how much will this property sell for after the work is put into it?

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Montrell Taylor: So what most investors do when they are looking to purchase properties, there’s an equation that they use, which is called the 70% rule. And I’ll talk about that in a minute. So I go to Tim Baker, and I say, ‘I have this property for let’s say $40,000.’ You only want $32,000. Tim Baker says, ‘Well, I can give you $38,000.’ And I say, ‘Fine.’ Once we go to closing, you’re going to be there, I’m going to be there, Tim Baker’s going to be there, I’m going to assign this property from myself to Tim Baker.

Tim Ulbrich: So transfer, essentially, the property.

Montrell Taylor: Transfer it. And what I’m doing is I’m assigning the property to Tim Baker. So once we go to closing, I get paid an assignment fee. And that’s essentially a wholesale deal.

Tim Ulbrich: And then that fee would basically be you got it for $32,000, you sold it for $38,000, that $6,000 goes to you as the wholesaler.

Montrell Taylor: Correct. And I didn’t mention me putting down any money.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Montrell Taylor: I didn’t mention running a credit check or nothing like that. The only thing it is, it’s a skill set that has to be used in order to make money because like I said, you don’t need money to get started in real estate. You just have to motivation and really, just a work ethic.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. So I’m a huge fan of the Bigger Pockets podcast, and one of the things they always talk about in that show is the most difficult part of the equation is finding deals, finding deals, finding deals. So you as a wholesaler where you’re not putting money down, you’re basically taking that effort of finding the deal out of the equation.

Montrell Taylor: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: So that is me, as an investor, who hey, I don’t have the time, Montrell, I can’t get clear, I don’t have the scale, I can’t put out bandit signs, like I’m willing to pay that wholesaling fee because I as the investor, I still am running my numbers myself. So if I have to pay a wholesaler $4,000 but the numbers still work and I don’t have to find the deal, so be it.

Montrell Taylor: Right. Right, because your whole thing is OK, I’m going to pay this person $6,000. And I’m going to buy this property for — what did I say, $38,000?

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Montrell Taylor: $38,000. I can put maybe $10,000 into it, and I can either put it back on the market for about $56,000-60,000 —

Tim Ulbrich: Which would be the ARV.

Montrell Taylor: ARV, right. So my profit as an investor is like, what? $20,000, something like that? So I mean, as an investor, they love wholesalers because what we’re doing is we’re doing the dirty work for them, but they still get the setback (?), buy these properties, fix them up, they continue to make money. So everybody wins.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m so glad we’re starting here with this example of what you’re doing because I think for many pharmacists, there’s obviously different ways of going. There’s flipping, which we can talk about here for a minute. There’s buy-and-hold. But the main difference here with wholesaling being one mechanism involved in real estate investing is that time and effort and some sweat equity to get into this process is going to be more important. Obviously, if we have listeners out there saying, ‘Hey, I’d love to do real estate investing. I’ve got $100,000 in cash, and I don’t have a lot of time,’ wholesaling may not be the best move for them.

Montrell Taylor: Exactly.

Tim Ulbrich: But for many pharmacists out there, they’re like, ‘Hey, I’d love to diversify my revenue stream. I’m willing to put in the time and effort,’ maybe wholesaling is something to start with.

Montrell Taylor: Right, because the goal of wholesaling is to — in addition to make money, you’re also learning the housing market. And you’re learning how to become an investor because the fact that you’re working with so many different investors, you’re kind of seeing what the process if you wanted to buy and fix a house and flip it or if you wanted to buy it, put a tenant inside of it, if you wanted to buy it and Section 8, whatever it may be. Because the goal of wholesaling is to be able to eventually buy the properties yourself and, you know, fix and flip or fix and hold. That’s the primary goal of most wholesalers.

Tim Ulbrich: Which you’ll be able to do as you accrue enough cash through wholesaling deals, you could then get involved in properties that need more of your cash up front and other things.

Montrell Taylor: Right, so right now, we actually have two properties in Memphis that we have bought and we’re currently fixing. And we’re putting a tenant inside of them within the next month.

Tim Ulbrich: So more turnkey in that?

Montrell Taylor: Turnkey in a sense, but we have to put a little bit of work in it because turnkeys are properties that don’t need any work.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Montrell Taylor: Like they are ready to — someone can live in it today. But we had to put in floors and we had to knock down some walls. And that’s in Memphis. But in D.C., it’s a little different. And D.C., Maryland, Virginia, it’s a little different because the properties are ten times more expensive.

Tim Ulbrich: Correct. So you moved to the most expensive market, right?

Montrell Taylor: Right, right. And then it’s just — in D.C., it’s just so funny because the properties are much smaller for ten times the price. So it’s a little bit more tricky when you’re looking to buy and hold properties in D.C. versus buying and holding in Memphis. But.

Tim Ulbrich: So are you typically — you know, one of the things I’ve learned about wholesaling on Bigger Pockets and reading books, it sounds like often, wholesaling is selling to a flipper, although not always. But I’ve always wondered like, why doesn’t the flipper just build out a subteam that is out doing the work of finding deals and stuff? I mean, why is the wholesaling piece necessary in that process? Is it just something they want to focus on the flip and not focus on the deals?

Montrell Taylor: From the investor’s standpoint?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, from the investor’s standpoint.

Montrell Taylor: I mean, you really don’t get a lot of cases where investors can build a team of wholesalers because investors can also work with the realtors. You know, like people who actually have licenses. Because some people kind of look at wholesaling like well, this guy doesn’t have a license, so why should I trust him to sell my home? And stuff like that. So wholesaling is a little bit more risky than being a real estate agent. But the fact that you’re independent, that gives you more freedom. And I mean, there could be an investor who builds a team of wholesalers. That’s actually an option. But I haven’t met an investor who does this. Because there’s so many people who wholesale now, it’s like, why would I start a team when I could just go, just contact a wholesaler now and just buy properties whole? Investors don’t have much time. I think that’s the biggest reason why they don’t build teams of wholesalers because they are either buying this property and trying to fix this other property and stuff like that.

Tim Ulbrich: So are you predominantly in the Memphis market then? Or are you in other areas as well?

Montrell Taylor: Predominantly right now, I am in the Baltimore, PG County (?), and Maryland market, Virginia — me personally. Now, my brother, he is the one who is securing the Nashville and Memphis markets right now. So I mean, we work on deals in Memphis all the time. And back when I was in Memphis, like last summer, I was closing a lot of deals. So it just depends where I am at the time, until I’m able to start my own thing and get people to go out and look at properties for me and kind of like, you know, do the dirty work for me. That’s something that I’m in the process of doing now, but it just — it takes time. It takes time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. And obviously, once you get the process done yourself, you can begin to think about how to scale it and build out the system. I think we need you to come to Columbus, so there’s some good opportunities there.

refinance student loans

Montrell Taylor: I actually haven’t got a chance to check out the market in Columbus.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s pretty hot right now, actually. I just was reading an article the other day in the Columbus Dispatch, I think it was in the month of March, Columbus was the hottest real estate market in the country.

Montrell Taylor: Really?
Tim Ulbrich: Which is crazy — I mean, it’s a great city. Don’t get me wrong, I love it. But just geography and weather and other things, you wouldn’t necessarily think that. But it is a great city.

Montrell Taylor: How far is it from here?

Tim Ulbrich: 6 hours-ish from Baltimore. So yeah.

Montrell Taylor: That’s not too bad.

Tim Ulbrich: SO talk to me for a minute, you know, how long you’ve been doing this — I think you mentioned earlier about a couple years — how many deals have you actually worked through during this time?

Montrell Taylor: So I’ve been doing this for, like I said, about two years. And as far as how many deals I’ve done, well, I know last year, we’ve done about 10-15.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Montrell Taylor: And that was in a total year. So that’s about like — because it takes about 3-4 weeks to close a deal.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Montrell Taylor: And that’s if everything goes right with the paperwork and stuff like that. But this year alone, we’ve closed about eight, about eight so far. So this year has been going way better than last year. And we just hope to continue to build our business and build our brand. Right. Because the summertime is when we see the most action. I don’t know if that’s when people are ready to move and stuff like that, but I know for me, personally, that gives me more time because I’m not in classes.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Montrell Taylor: So I’m able to go out and see these properties and talk to sellers and actually put my feet on the ground to get out and close more deals. So it’s going to be a great summer.

Tim Ulbrich: So what would you say to the person that says, ‘Hey, Montrell, it’s 2019, the market’s red-hot, and it’s impossible to find good deals out there.’ Like what’s the response to that?

Montrell Taylor: I would say, people are buying and selling houses every day. Literally every day. So it kind of goes back to the way we limit ourselves. That just sounds like another limit that someone tries to put on themselves because people are wholesaling literally every day. Like I’m in Facebook groups and I follow people on Instagram, you just see so many people post checks that they make in wholesaling like literally every day, $20,000, $30,000, $50,000 checks off one deal. Right? So I would just say, you have to go ahead and get started. Because you can only do so much research, and you can only be so skeptical about doing something. But the most important step is to just get started.

Tim Ulbrich: So to that point, let’s get practical for there a moment. I think a lot of listeners are saying, ‘This is great. Montrell, he’s a rising P3. He’s after this. And I, as a listener, would like to do something similar or get involved in real estate.’ And I appreciate your recommendation of just starting. Is there something you would recommend, a podcast, a book, you know, what would be a next step that somebody could take?

Montrell Taylor: OK. I would recommend one guy that is very popular. Like I said, the guy who motivated me to start, a guy named Rico Smith. He is a very knowledgeable guy. Also, there’s a guy named Max Maxwell, who is very popular, and he teaches people how to wholesale all the time. But the most important step is to do research. Like I wouldn’t say just jump into wholesaling blindly because you do, like we did have to do our fair share of podcasts and YouTube videos and reading books and stuff like that. So I would say Max Maxwell, Rico Smith, there’s also a guy named Tony the Closer. There’s so many — like we have an advantage right now because technology — and we just talked about like technology is taking over. You can learn how to do anything online. You can learn a brand new language online. So wholesaling is something that you can learn by just doing your research, but most importantly, you have to get started. You have to get out there. It’s going to feel uncomfortable, you’re going to have people who — people are going to talk bad to you and you may get cursed out sometimes.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s a process, right?

Montrell Taylor: It’s a process. It’s a process. Like nothing happens overnight, but you just got to get started. You’ve got to be willing to take that chance because you have to keep your mind set on the bigger picture. Like think about what can happen — like don’t even think about what can happen if it goes wrong. Only put your mind on, OK, what if as soon as I call this person, it’s going to be a deal. I’m going to close a deal, I’m going to make this amount of money. Just always keep your mind set on the positive because the more you think about the negative, you’re going to just continue to limit yourself because we all have 24 hours in a day, right? So we all can do whatever we put our minds to. And then I feel like growing up, we always heard the statement that you can do whatever you put your mind to, like we always hear that. And it’s kind of like, eh, who are you to tell me that, right? But I wanted to be a pharmacist in high school. And in two years, I’m going to be a pharmacist. And that’s just a small example of I put my mind to being a pharmacist, and that’s what I’m going to do. Maybe I should have put my mindset on being a billionaire, I could have been a billionaire by now.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s in the works. In the works.

Montrell Taylor: Could have been a billionaire by now. But that just shows an example of literally, it’s all about your mindset.

Tim Ulbrich: I hope our listeners will go back and listen to that last two minutes because it is mindset, without question.

Montrell Taylor: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: And you are a great example of that. And I think that’s such a great message. And one of the things you said, which I really like, is that in 2019, we are in the age of you can learn anything that you want to learn.

Montrell Taylor: Anything.

Tim Ulbrich: Anything. We have it better than any generation that has come before us.

Montrell Taylor: It’s just like, we have to really think about how technology has advanced. Like think about what, like 10 years ago, where you had to basically — the Internet was connected to your phone. Right? It’s like now, we have Internet everywhere. And we don’t even think about how advanced technology has became, but like literally, you can do anything on the Internet. And there’s also classes you can take, and of course, they cost money, but from my personal experience, I’ve been able to succeed in wholesaling, and I haven’t paid for any class. I’ve just done my own research, I’ve YouTubed —

Tim Ulbrich: Podcast, books.

Montrell Taylor: Podcast, books.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Montrell Taylor: Bigger Pockets. And I had to get out there in the field and just — you’ve got to learn from failures. Some people are so scared of failing, they’re just like, OK, what if this goes right? What if you succeeded? Right? So it’s going back to just think about the good thing that can happen from this.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, one of my — without going too far on a tangent here — one of my greatest fear with my three boys is that they won’t learn how to fail. Because I think that as a parent, you just have a natural tendency to want to protect that. But there is such positive that can come from learning how to fail.

Montrell Taylor: I’ve learned so much.

Tim Ulbrich: And learning from that, and moving on, right?

Montrell Taylor: It’s just funny because I’ve learned so much from failing.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Montrell Taylor: Because when I first started, it took us a long time before we started actually making money. We didn’t just hop into the game and start closing deals left and right, left and right. We failed a lot of times. There was times where I personally almost had to go to court for a lady because you know how sometimes, people are not as honest as you want them to be in business.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure. Yeah.

Montrell Taylor: So once you actually start, you have to learn that even though you may not get any type of compensation from this deal, you still have to learn. And failing is the best teacher.

Tim Ulbrich: And if the path was so clear that there were never any problems, everybody would be doing it.

Montrell Taylor: Everybody would be doing it.

Tim Ulbrich: So I see, I envision maybe at some point, we’ll get Montrell’s Pharmacist’s Guide to Wholesaling. We can work on that in the future. But let me wrap up here by asking you, you know, I’m sure the students are wondering — if not others — like how do you balance this with the demands of pharmacy school? You know, you’re on rotations, you’re in coursework, you’re working on this you mentioned a little bit in the summers, but you also have a pharmacy internship as well. Like how are you practically balancing and managing these? And you did allude to, hey, everybody has 24 hours.

Montrell Taylor: Everybody.

Tim Ulbrich: But what works for you?

Montrell Taylor: What works for me is, I mean, so during school, it does get really tough. So what I do is I try to block out all of the distractions. Because we have more time than we think about. And that’s kind of weird that I say that because if you think about the time that you spend, let’s say you’re scrolling on Instagram for 10 minutes, let’s say you do that five times.

Tim Ulbrich: And then feeling like crap about yourself.

Montrell Taylor: Right. And that’s an hour, right? So the thing that kind of helps me balance out is just staying focused. So let’s say if I have to study for an exam, I’m going to go ahead and put in two hours to study, and I’m going to put in at least an hour of cold calling. Cold calling, which is calling numbers to ask sellers if they want to sell a home.

Tim Ulbrich: All the while, you’re learning how to deal with rejection.

Montrell Taylor: Exactly.

Tim Ulbrich: Right?

Montrell Taylor: Right, right. Yes. So like you never stop learning. Like I love to learn, like you’re always learning. So the key to being able to balance out all these different things is just staying focused and just make a schedule, stick to it, and just stay focused on what you have to do. Like don’t start studying and then go hop on Instagram for 30 minutes because you just wasted 30 minutes. Now you’re 30 minutes behind, which in turn, puts you more behind on things that you have to get done. So I just create a strict schedule, and I stick to it. And you have to also use your weekends to like catch up on things, like it has been times where I have been kind of behind in the class as far as studying. So I’ve had to pull all-nighters, right? So I mean, sometimes, you just have to make those sacrifices. Because if you want to actually live the life that you dream of living, you have to sacrifice for it.

Tim Ulbrich: Amen. And I’ll say this quietly — I guess semi-quietly, since we’re publishing this out to thousands of people — but I am an academic, so I’ll say it somewhat quietly. But what you’re learning while you’re cold-calling people in terms of not only rejection but also how to effectively sell and promote and communication skills, I mean, that far outweighs anything I’ll say you’re likely learning — you know, certainly you have to pass your courses, you have to move on, absolutely. I’m not saying you should not be doing that. But those skills that you’re going to take away from that and how tangible those are and the benefit they’re going to have for whatever path your career takes are so invaluable.

Montrell Taylor: Right. Right. And then when you’re cold-calling and people are actually giving you their rejection, it kind of teaches you how to just go with rejection in life. Because let’s say if you may apply for an internship, and you don’t get it, that’s a rejection. But you’ve just got to learn that life keeps going. And you have to just learn from, like I said, from your failures and just learn about — just look at your process and learn, and look at what didn’t go right and just learn from that and just build upon it. But I think the most important thing is to just never give up and never stop. Because if you stop, then you can’t make any sort of progress. But as long as you’re trying, it’s like, OK, this may work. Because you know they say you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that’s right.

Montrell Taylor: Right. So just staying consistent and staying focused.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and it’s the compound effect of not any one of those may feel really significant in the moment, but it’s the micro-changes and the things that are compounding over time that really have such a lifelong impact. So let me wrap up — this has been fantastic, and I thank you for your time.

Montrell Taylor: Thank you.
Tim Ulbrich: But I want to wrap up by — I have a quote from Jim Rohn that is, “Success is not to be pursued. It’s to be attracted by the person we become.” And that stuck out to me when I thought of who you are in the short time I’ve gotten to know you.

Montrell Taylor: That’s deep.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that just the energy you’ve given me and I think you’re going to give to our listeners speaks to who you are and I think the career you have ahead of you. So thank you for your time —

Montrell Taylor: I appreciate that.

Tim Ulbrich: For navigating traffic.

Montrell Taylor: Thank you for having me. I just think it’s so amazing how last year, I was just reading your book, “Seven Figure Pharmacist.” And now, a whole year later, I’m sitting here talking to you on your podcast, right? So it’s just — you never just know what God has planned for you. And I just want to thank you for giving me the chance to come on here and just give my story and just talk to people. I just want to make sure that people know that you can do anything if you just set your mind to it. And just stay focused, and stay consistent.

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YFP 102: An Interview with Dr. Suzanne Soliman: Founder of the Pharmacist Moms Group

Posted on by yfpadmin


An Interview with Dr. Suzanne Soliman: Founder of the Pharmacist Moms Group

Dr. Suzanne Soliman, Founder of Pharmacist Moms Group, joins Tim Ulbrich to dive deep into her motivativation for launching the group, resources the group offers, where this movement is heading and how she carves out time for her business.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Suzanne Soliman earned her PharmD from the University of Illinois at Chicago in 2004. She then completed a residency in primary care with an emphasis on education at Midwestern University Chicago College of Pharmacy and a teaching fellowship at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Medicine. Suzy worked as a clinical pharmacist, a medical science liaison and national field team educator prior to becoming an Assistant Dean of Academic Affairs at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Pharmacy. She most recently was an Associate Dean at Touro College of Pharmacy New York and an independent pharmacy owner.

Suzy has 75 publications and has presented at numerous national meetings. She is a Rufus A. Lyman award recipient which is granted for the best manuscript published in the American Journal of Pharmacy Education. Suzy has served as a medical expert on a number of pharmacy issues and has been a reviewer for Annals of Pharmacotherapy and Currents in Pharmacy Teaching and Learning. She has been quoted in “Crain”, “Chicago Business Magazine” and “Time Out Chicago”. Currently, she is the Chief Academic Officer for the Accreditation Council for Medical Affairs (ACMA). Her areas of interest are assessment and development of medical affairs professionals.

Summary

Dr. Suzanne Soliman began the Pharmacist Moms Group after feeling guilty for missing her son’s baseball game. When training to be a pharmacist, so many had said that it was a great career for moms because it had such a great schedule. Conversely, Suzy found that she was working late nights and weekends which caused her to miss her children’s events and games. After not being able to sleep one night because of the guilt, Suzy created the group on Facebook because she wanted to connect with other pharmacist moms who were experiencing what she was. Today, the group boasts over 25,000 members.

The Pharmacist Moms Group offers several resources to its’ members and focuses on creating a strong support network no matter what phase of life you are going through. The Pro Group Membership is now offered which includes resume review, expert talks, continuing education credits, and additional support. The group also offers discounts on two board certifications.

Suzy didn’t expect the growth that the group has seen and hasn’t put in any money to advertise. It has simply grown from the support that is offered to one another. There are 8 moderators and admins that are involved with the Facebook group. A Director of Research has been added to the leadership team to focus solely on research. Although she feels that there is never enough time in the day, Suzy finds time to work on this movement in the early morning or evening when her children are sleeping and answers emails whenever she’s in line waiting for something.

As far as personal finance is concerned, Suzy sees that the main financial challenges the group faces are regarding student loans and 529s. Suzy’s advice to anyone who is overwhelmed with student loan debt or is frustrated that they aren’t progressing in their financial plan in the way they want is to live within your means, be comfortable with unforeseen circumstances, and get or create a side hustle to bring in extra income.

Suzy is passionate and incredibly motivated to help propel woman in pharmacy in equality and to step into leadership positions.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Over the past year, as you know, we’ve been featuring several inspiring side hustle stories — shoutout to our team member Tim Church, who’s been leading that — as well as several entrepreneurial journeys. And we have another great one for you today. I’m excited to welcome Dr. Suzanne Soliman to talk about her career journey, her work in founding the Pharmacist Moms Group, and to discuss the financial challenges and questions that are top-of-mind for their 25,000+ members. So a little bit about Suzi before we jump into the interview today: Dr. Suzanne Soliman earned her PharmD from the University of Illinois at Chicago in 2004. She completed residency training in primary care with an emphasis on education at Midwestern University Chicago College of Pharmacy and a teaching fellowship at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Medicine. Suzi worked as a clinical pharmacist and medical science liaison and national field team educator prior to becoming an assistant dean of academic affairs at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Pharmacy. She most recently was an associate dean at Touro College of Pharmacy in New York and independent pharmacy owner. She has over 75 publications, has presented at numerous national meetings, she is a Rufus Lyman award recipient, which is granted for the best manuscript published in the American Journal of Pharmacy Education. She served as the medical expert on a number of pharmacy issues and has been a reviewers for the Annals of Pharmacotherapy and Currents in Pharmacy Teaching and Learning. She’s been quoted in Crane, Chicago Business Magazine and Timeout Chicago. Currently, she’s the Chief Academic Officer for the accreditation council for medical affairs. Her areas of interest are assessment and development of medical affairs professionals. Suzi, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast!

Suzanne Soliman: Thank you, Tim. Thanks for having me on the show.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, excited to have you. And now that we know a little bit more about your background, let’s talk about your work in building the Pharmacist Moms Group, which I have to say, you and I talked a couple years ago, so I’ve been able to watch this journey from afar, when you were just beginning, seeing it grow. There’s now more than 25,000 members, and I saw on your website, there’s over 2 million posts, comments and reactions on your Facebook page in 2018. So clearly, you have identified a need, a pain point, and area of interest where there’s others that are desiring for or have a problem that needs to be solved. So tell us a little bit about the Pharmacist Moms Group.

Suzanne Soliman: Sure. So thank you for the introduction and everything. But the Pharmacist Moms Group, it just kind of started. And I know I’ve talked about this before, but basically, my son, who had a baseball game and I couldn’t attend because I was working, and I felt really bad. You go into pharmacy a lot of times — I know a lot of my mom friends have said this — go in because you hear, oh, it’s a great profession to be a mom, you know? And then what I found was I was working late, I was missing games, I was working weekends, and I felt bad. I couldn’t sleep one night, so I decided to start this group. I went online and invited my friends and just said, you know, “I feel really bad. I feel this guilt, and I don’t know what to do.” And I felt that other pharmacists could relate. There were other moms groups that I was a part of, but I really felt that I wanted to talk to pharmacist moms because they went through similar type of rigorous education or residency or fellowship training. So for me, I felt that I really wanted to connect with other pharmacist moms. And what I found was that a lot of other women felt the same way that I did. And the group has just kind of grown from there. It’s really just been a support group, a group for each other to bounce questions off of each other, whether they’re personal questions, not pharmacy-related, or pharmacy-related. And so we’ve kind of just grown from there and you know, really learned from one another.

Tim Ulbrich: I think when you say “kind of grown,” I think you’re being humble, which I appreciate. But “exploded” might be a better word. But I think clearly, you’ve got great brand recognition with what you’re doing. And I love that it’s not just about growing a business, growing a brand, like you’re doing it out of obviously motivations of developing a community and support and resources for one another, something that you felt like you needed and obviously others, that has resonated with. So let me ask you this, so you mention on your website that the goal of the group is simple, the Pharmacist Moms Group, to create a supportive community full of cool resources for pharmacist moms. So what does that practically look like? If somebody were to come to your website or join the Facebook group or the community, what exactly does that look like in terms of the community and the resources that you offer?

Suzanne Soliman: You really hit the nail on the head because I think for me, I’ve always been passionate about women and pharmacy and that entire area. I mean, it just speaks to me. I love it, and I’m passionate about it, and so what I found was that what our group offers — and we’ve evolved. So you know, initially, it was just kind of questions. And then someone said, “You know what? I’m learning so much from this group, why don’t we earn Continuing Education for some of these posts?” So we’ve partnered with a CE company, and we’re now earning Continuing Education credits. We’re also a supportive network, so we’ve had pharmacists going through divorce, going through loss. We’ve tried to connect — when there was a pharmacist who was actually shot working in the pharmacy, we tried to raise money for her and her technician. We’ve really tried to support one another throughout our careers. There’s new moms on there, there’s mothers who are grandmothers now who are on there who’ve gone through a lot and can offer a lot of experience and knowledge to one another. And we offer a pro group now where you get a resume review included. We have a book club. Just mountains and mountains of different areas. And we’ve also started these little subgroups now because the group is so large. So we have an independent pharmacist moms group, so if you own your own independent or you’re thinking about it, and the hospital pharmacy group. So we’ve kind of started forming these smaller communities within this large community.

Tim Ulbrich: So for those that are listening that haven’t already checked out or aren’t aware of what you’re doing, head on over to PharmacistMomsGroup.com or certainly the Facebook group I think is a great point to jump in, lots of different areas. I know you’re active on Instagram and others as well. So I want to talk a little bit from a business perspective. You know, as you’ve experienced such a significant growth in a short period of time — and I can tell that you’ve evolved, you know, when you think back to your son’s baseball game and when this initial idea came to be, could you have envisioned what this looks like right now? I mean, did you see the vision and it was just a matter of time to build it? Or has this really evolved over time as you took one step and then you identified another need, another need and then another need.

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah, I think it’s more of the latter. So I did not expect this at all. I always tell everyone, I haven’t put in any money for advertising. This is really just a community that’s grown from the support that we offer one another and from being kind to each other and trying to help each other and really be there for one another. And it’s evolved. So like I had mentioned, when someone brought up the idea of the Continuing Education, we’re like, you know what, that’s a good idea. Let’s try to do that. Or if they brought up the subgroups, you know, I have a question, but I really want to group it or send it only to these pharmacists. So we’ve really evolved. And one of the things that was great that we identified from the group was that women were graduating for the past four decades at higher levels than male pharmacy students. So we’ve graduated more and more female students. But we didn’t really recognize where they’ve come. So we established the first Women Pharmacists Day last year, and it will continue this year. So again, it’s just been — I want to say evolving throughout this time. And it’s been great. It’s been a lot of fun, I’ve met a lot of great people. I’ve made a lot of new friends. And I am just so passionate about this area, and I think that it’s an area that we really need to provide support for. We need to remember that there are women who are working retail and at a retail chain store, and they might have babies at home, and they need to pump at work, and there’s no place to pump. We need to be their voice, we need to let everyone know about that.

Tim Ulbrich: What I’ve really enjoyed, Suzi, watching from afar — obviously, I’m not a pharmacist mom, so I’m not in the group — but watching the growth and the interest is that when I hear you talk about the community and supporting one another, I mean, at the end of the day, any great business is built off of providing great value. And you know, I think of Seth Godin, and he talks about the concept of tribe and building a community that is passionate about helping one another and moving a certain issue or advancing a certain topic forward, and I think that’s what you’ve done so well here. And I think you and I both would agree on this, at the end of the day, if you can find something you’re really, really passionate about, and it can empower and help other people and you can ultimately make a business of it, that’s a win-win all around. And I think that that’s what makes all of this so much fun. So talk to me a little bit about the business model. So we may have people out there listening to this podcast thinking about, hey, I’ve got this great idea, and maybe it involves community directly, maybe it doesn’t. But ultimately, even though you grow something, you’re investing time, you’re investing some resources, obviously probably time may be the most significant one, but at the end of the day, as you think about this in terms of a business for the future, what does the model of this look like for you in terms of either sponsorship for the pro group? So talk to us more about the business model of Pharmacist Moms Group.

Suzanne Soliman: I’m still unsure of the actual business model. I didn’t set out for it in that way, but ultimately, you’re right. It takes hours and hours of work, so the main thing is that we have moderators and admins, and I have a great group of pharmacists that I’ve met who are really involved. And right now, it’s about the time and energy that we’re putting into the group. So I think that there are so many of us now. There’s like eight of us, actually, and we actually have one woman who’s focused solely on the research aspect. So for me, it’s also about the research part of the group. As a former professor and administrator at two colleges — or three colleges of pharmacy, I understand the importance of data and having the data behind it. And with numbers where we hit 25,000 pharmacists, surveying them, understanding their needs, presenting this at national meetings, talking about what people out in the field are experiencing that those working in a different area might not realize that they’re experiencing. So I think for me, that’s been an area that we’re planning to focus on. So one of the moderators now in our group, that’s her area. She’s kind of the Director of Research. Her name is Eva Ferris-Colon (?), she’s going to be kind of the Director of Research for the Pharmacist Moms Group. And anyone who’s interested in studying or surveying us and finding out about different areas, so that’s definitely something that we’re planning. And for me, it’s really going to continue to evolve. I think that ultimately, my goal for this group is really to empower women pharmacists and help their careers, help them in their careers, help them propel their careers, help them answer questions so that they don’t feel alone. I know myself, sometimes you’re alone in a pharmacy. You might be working only with technicians. And when I say “alone,” like without peers at a similar level. So you might have techs that you’re working with, but you might not have another pharmacist to bounce a question off of or you might be working on a team in a hospital, but you might not have that pharmacist with you as well. So for me, that’s really where we’re going. Facebook asked us — now going back to the business question — so Facebook actually approached us and they asked us to start this subscription model. So we started the pro group, and it’s been great. Really, within that group, we’ve incorporated a lot of the Continuing Education, the resume review, different ideas, bringing experts like yourself to come and talk to the group, which has been great. And I think that’s where I see the business for the Pharmacist Moms Group going is that we’re kind of a one-stop shop where you can hear from these experts, you can have your support group, you can have your laughs, your jokes, and you can earn your CE and kind of do everything at one point. And if you need a resume review yearly, that’s included too. So that’s kind of where I see it going.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I really like what you’re doing with the pro membership concept. I think that’s a business model for others to think about is that you’ve got lots of resources and opportunity for people to engage and develop a community that could happen for free, but also, there’s a subset of people that want to engage at a different level. And I think again, you know, it’s an investment of time and resource and other things. And so I think your pro membership option allows that. And so, to put a plug in for that, if you go PharmacistMomsGroup.com, you’ll see information on there about the pro membership. It’s $59.99 per year, and it looks like there’s a coupon code, SAVE10 for $10 off your first year. And so as I understand it, Suzi, essentially then there’s a package of resources or additional benefits that people get in the pro membership that they may not necessarily otherwise get. So member-only CEs, monthly member-only live sessions, live trainings, you mentioned the resume review, exclusive discounts, and so I think that model is something to consider for others that are of value and different options for their business as well.

Suzanne Soliman: Yes. We actually recently just partnered with two — so we have two different board certifications that you can get a discount on too, so the board certification for MTM. If you’re a member of the pro group, you can get a discount on it. Board certification for medical affairs, if you’re a member of the pro group, you can get your application fee waived. So there’s different benefits as well. And then we partnered with Mama Jamas, and they’re a company —

Tim Ulbrich: I saw that.

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah, so they offer — they actually started out in Nordstrom, and they have this amazing clothing line, and so we get discounts for that. So there’s a bunch of different areas that we’re able to offer discounts for for pharmacist moms.

Tim Ulbrich: So let’s talk for a minute about personal finance as it relates to the Pharmacist Moms Group. And I know you and I, as you mentioned, have partnered on several education sessions, actually doing one this afternoon, which I am excited about for your pro group. And based on these sessions, the feedback that I’ve seen and seeing the mention of personal finance as a topic of interest on your website, you know, I presume this is a topic that’s frequently discussed among your community members. So what are some of the financial challenges that you see your community is facing?

Suzanne Soliman: So I think the No. 1 thing that I always see posted is really to do with student loans and paying them off or not paying them off. And there’s so many people who have — they do have the money to pay it off, and then they’re wondering if they should or if they should just wait. So that’s the first thing. And then the second thing is more my personal question that I would love to ask you — and I do see it posted from time-to-time, but it’s really related to 529s for children because for me, my husband and I have put in money for our children into them, but I always wonder if we’re wasting our money putting it into the 529 because what if our kids, for example, get a scholarship? Or what if another child decides they don’t want to go to college? And what happens to our money? So I guess I’m always hesitant when we do it. I understand the tax benefit, you know, but then I’m always nervous about well, what if in 10 or 15 years, this child is like — I don’t know, something happens that’s different than what we thought of.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s a great question, actually something my wife and I have talked a lot about. And let me just address that briefly because we really haven’t talked about 529s on the podcast a whole lot. So this is a good opportunity to do it. And actually, I think that was one of the questions submitted by your members that we’re going to address this afternoon in the Facebook Live as well. You know, the reason I struggle with 529s — and I will say my wife and I, so we have contributions for all three of our kids in there right now. I would say we’re kind of meddling in the middle. Like we really haven’t gone all-in and in part, for us, what I struggle with to the 529s is certainly a great tax advantaged savings vehicle, it essentially operates like a Roth IRA for college. So money you put in, it’s already been taxed, and it’s going to grow, grow tax-free. You can pull it out as long as you’re using it for educational benefits, which is pretty broad. I mean, it could be tuition, it can be board, it can be books. And one of the advantage, especially if you have multiple children, is the opportunity to transfer it within the family. And I believe within siblings, so like I could transfer it to my brother’s kids, for example, if for whatever reason, my kids weren’t going to use it. So let’s say my oldest son decides not to go to school for whatever reason or he gets a scholarship, but my other two do, I would have the option to transfer it. So there is that flexibility, which has the advantage. The thing I struggle with, Suzi, a little bit is what does the future of college education look like?

Suzanne Soliman: Yes, I know. Yeah, yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: I mean, right? So you know, I know you have your oldest is 15, is that right?

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah, so he is. So I guess that’s the thing. So some of the schools — I’m sure you’ve seen this — but in New York now, public education is free. And I don’t live in New York, but I’m wondering, you know, will that happen in other states? Will that happen in the state I live in? Especially my daughter, my youngest, my daughter is 5, and who knows what’s going to happen in 13 years with education? And then my 15-year-old is — he has a disability, so sometimes I wonder with him, he might not go to school. So then what happens to that money? So I wonder with all of that as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I mean, you’re thinking through it the exact same way my wife and I are. I mean, with I think kids that are closer to college, the system in three or four or five years may very much look like today, but what will it look like in 10 or 15 years? Will free college be normal? Will it keep going up at rates that far outpace inflation and now all of a sudden, we’re going to be up a creek because we didn’t save as much? And I think that’s why we are kind of meddling in a little bit of the middle. We’re contributing, but I’m hesitant to overcontribute. You know, part of my thought is that on some level, if somebody’s in a position where they have no student loan debt, maybe even a house is paid off or close, you know, other goals are on their way to being achieved, retirement, other things that there’s an opportunity to cash flow some of that or even look at alternative options for taking on lower interest rate debt they could pay off. The other thing is, while I would never favor this option, there’s an option to pull money from a Roth IRA for educational expenses that doesn’t get hit with a tax in terms of a penalty, that 10% penalty. So that’s another alternative option. So my wife and I are looking at a combination of since we don’t know what it’s going to look like, we don’t know scholarships, free, all that kind of stuff, maybe they don’t want to go to college, you know, we’re going to have a little bit there, but we’re also going to hopefully cash flow some of that along the way. The other thing, Suzi, I’ve seen — I don’t know if you see your community talking about this — is that I think a lot of pharmacists, especially if they’ve come out with let’s say $150,0000-200,000 of student loan debt, they tend to overcompensate for their situation at the expense of their own other financial goals. So for example, somebody may say, ‘I came out with $200,000 of debt. I absolutely never want my kids to experience any of that. Therefore, I’m going to pay 100% of it,’ but that’s at the expense of saving for retirement or making sure that we have a solid emergency fund, or they’re still carrying around high interest rate debt themselves, and they might be on one hand helping the future with their kids’ college, but on the other hand, overcompensating and hurting their own financial plan. So I think certainly for each person, it’s different. But I think that’s a word of caution I’d give to any of your audience members or our listeners at large is that I think there’s a tendency to overcompensate for what we experience personally and really to try to take a step back objectively and think about it in the context of other goals.

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.

Tim Ulbrich: So Suzi, we often talk with pharmacists, they could be moms, dads, singles, it really doesn’t matter, and hear that they’re overwhelmed with student loan debt, they’re frustrated that they’re not progressing as fast as they would like to be with their financial plan. Based on your own personal experience or what you’ve seen as success stories within your community, what advice would you have for the pharmacist moms out there or even the others at large in terms of those that are facing multiple competing financial priorities and how they can begin to tackle that? Or where should they start in terms of their financial plan?

Suzanne Soliman: So I think that for me, I’m still paying my student loans. But my student loan rate when I graduated — my interest rate is unbelievable. It’s under 2%.

Tim Ulbrich: Crazy.

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah, it’s crazy low. So I’m personally the person who’s waiting the full 30 years, given my rate. And I think that you have to be comfortable — if you are waiting, you have to be comfortable with some level of debt where some people I know, they have the 1%, and they’re just like, no way, I’m going to pay that off. I can’t handle having the 1%. But I’m like, but if you put your money somewhere else, you’re going to earn more than 1%. You know? So you have to feel comfortable with it. If you’re battling it, I mean, for me, I look at if something has a high interest rate, just pay that off first or something that’s smaller, you’d want to pay that off first too. But I think for me, what I’ve realized is that I think sometimes when you’re in pharmacy school, you’re like, I’m going to graduate, and I’m going to go make these big bucks, and once I graduate, I’m just going to be earning so much that I can pay everything off. But then life happens, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Suzanne Soliman: And you have to get a car, and you want a new car because now you’re Dr. Such-and-Such, and you might have done residency. And for myself, my friends were earning six figures, and I was earning $32,000. That was a big difference in salary. So I think that life happens, and different things happen, and it’s really about — I mean, for me, it was trying to live within your means for awhile and then realizing again, then you have children that might come along, might or might not, you know? And you have other expenses. I mean, I was just saying that actually on the phone with my mom today. I had fixed my one car, you know, one car got hit on the garage, and I had to go fix it. And then what happens, I was like, OK, fine, that happened. Then my boys were outside playing basketball, and of course, they break the side view mirror with the basketball. I’m like, I just think that my miscellaneous budget is going to be under this for this month, and then something happens. That’s how life is, so being comfortable with what comes at you and just that we have to all be comfortable with that. You don’t know what the unforeseen circumstances that might come your way. So I don’t know, for me, I don’t necessarily think you have to pay all of your student debt off immediately, but if you do, I’m sure that’s a really, really great feeling. But if there are other things that are more important and then the second thing is always having a side hustle or something else. I mean, when I was in residency, I was still working for one of the chains, you know, kind of as a floater. And then I always tried to do something else or tried to have a couple incomes or sources of income. So that’s always been very helpful for me, at least. It might not work for everyone, but for me, it’s helped.

Tim Ulbrich: I think so. And I think especially, you know, obviously it’s well documented what’s going on in the job market and in many parts of the country, 32 is the new 40 in terms of committed salary, and we’re even seeing some compression in that hourly rate for a pharmacist. But I think a side hustle — not only from the financial piece but also from the pursuit of something you’re passionate about. I mean, there’s something to be said for an area, whether it’s a creative outlet, whether it earns money, maybe a little bit, maybe a lot of bit, to be able to get energy from that I think is one of the often overlooked aspects of a side hustle. So Suzi, let me ask you for the dads that are out there listening to this episode, what advice would you have in terms of how they can best relate with and effectively work with their significant other when it comes to this topic of money? Probably one of the most common questions we get is, hey, I’m really trying to progress the financial plan, but I feel like me and my spouse aren’t on the same page. And we know that certainly is a topic that’s difficult to navigate. So any words of advice from either you personally or what you’ve heard in your community of how somebody may be able to effectively work together with the spouse or significant other?

Suzanne Soliman: You know, OK, I am no expert. But I think that in general, from what I know of either from myself or my friends or within my group community, typically, there’s one person who spends more, and there’s one person who doesn’t. So you know, there’s one person that’s a saver, and there’s one person that’s the spender. And I actually don’t really know many couples where they’re completely aligned. And I think that’s any relationship that you’re in. If you’re in a committed relationship, you just have to find balance between you because you’re never going to — whether it’s related to finance or anything else, you’re not going to find someone that matches your ideals perfectly. So going back to the dads out there, if your wife spent something extra on something, talking about it, but understanding that maybe she has a different level of comfortability. Or vice versa, maybe the dad is the spender, and the mom is the saver, and so understanding that the level of comfortability, having conversations about that I think are important, about levels of risk. I think risk is a big one. So I grew up in a family where risk wasn’t — it wasn’t as tolerated, maybe. So I grew up, my parents taught me, never have credit card debt. If you charge something on a credit card, you have to pay it off immediately. If you don’t have enough cash in the bank, you don’t use it and you don’t use it at all. So I think I was very risk-averse. So even certain things, it’s hard for me to stomach, like purchasing a house, I’m like, oh my gosh, that’s a really big amount of debt you’re going to take on. But then I realize that you know what, that’s just because of how I grew up and things that I was told. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that — some debt is good. And that’s where I began to become comfortable, like I had mentioned, with my student loan debt and saying, you know what — and that’s where I started to invest in the market and become familiar with the market, become familiar with mutual funds. I actually have taught my 7-year-old — he’s 7, and I’ve been teaching him how to check the market and different things.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome.

Suzanne Soliman: So it’s been fun with that. But yeah, I think when it comes to relationships, I think the finance part of it — yeah, you generally hear that’s what people disagree on. But I just think that you have to understand that most couples, whoever you’re with, you’re probably going to disagree with them on certain things. I mean, eventually, you’re going to come to an agreement, but if she really likes those shoes or if he really likes that new electronic, you’re both going to have to be OK with that, you know?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think to highlight what you said there too is also just being aware of that and appreciating what the other person is. I think that there’s no good or bad in a spender and a saver. I think each of them has benefits, and I think often when you have those different money personalities, I think that can be a powerful combination when you get to the point of appreciating it really challenging each other in both of those areas. And I think risk is a great one. You know, you take the idea that you have two people that are very conservative with their financial plan, that may have some significant upsides in some areas, but it also may put a ceiling in terms of what you’re able to really do and grow long-term with your wealth and achieving the other goals that you want to achieve.

Suzanne Soliman: Definitely. I think for me, like what changed my mind was initially, I was doing the savings and my father was saving everything, and he had plans to retire at 55 and he was investing in his 401k’s and would sometimes stay at a lower-end hotel because he wanted to just save. And then my dad got cancer, and he died, you know, quickly. So he never got to enjoy his money or experience it or see it, and what’s interesting is my mother-in-law also passed. She was a teacher, she had a pension, she had everything. She passed at 62 from a brain tumor. So I guess I saw loved ones who never got to get to retirement and enjoy, and that’s what also shifted me to begin to see that, you know what, sometimes, it’s OK to spend. It’s OK to splurge because we’re not sure if we’re going to get that day.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Yeah. And I want to give credit here — Tim Baker does a great job of this. He did with my wife, Jess, and I and others that we work as well, just asking those kind of questions and playing those scenarios out. I mean, if you were to really conservatively save for 40 years and then for whatever reason weren’t able to enjoy it, health, something unexpected, whatever be the case, I mean, what is the point of all of this to begin with? So really identifying that why, that purpose, and I think it’s about balance, right?

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s about not spending outside of your means all the time now, kind of the YOLO concept, but also it’s not about just squirreling away money for 40 years and then hoping you’re healthy enough to be able to enjoy it, so I like the concept Tim Ferriss’ 4-hour workweek, he talks about mini-retirements and this idea of really enjoying this time throughout your career. And I think you can still wisely save up for it and spend it, and I think you can accomplish a little bit of both of these along the way. So let me ask you a few questions in terms of thinking about your business, the direction going forward, and how you balance all of this in terms of full-time job and business. But first, let me start with, you know, we both know well that starting a business, it’s obviously exhilarating, but it’s also difficult. It can be a grind at times, you know, in terms of the time you’re spending, especially as you’re balancing family activities and other things. So what keeps you motivated as you continue to press forward with the Pharmacist Moms Group and that growing while you’re also managing your full-time job?

Suzanne Soliman: So for me, it’s really about my passion. So for Pharmacist Moms, it’s just what I want to do. It’s kind of what I’m really passionate about: women and pharmacy and making a difference and seeing changes and bringing things to fruition. For me, it’s what I wake up early about, and I can’t wait to look at different things related to pharmacists and women and read papers about it, and I get enjoyment from it. So I’m smiling here because this is — I don’t necessarily think of it as business. I really think of it as we’re a movement, you know, of women who are going to change pharmacy for the better to really help pharmacist women and propel our careers, to just do a lot. So you know, it’s just my passion. And I think when you’re passionate about something, it changes everything.

Tim Ulbrich: So how do you, Suzi, how do you practically carve out time. It’s a question we often get, hey, I’m really interested in starting a side hustle, but with family or job, I just don’t have energy, I don’t have time. What has worked for you in terms of being able to prioritize and cut out time in your schedule to work on the Pharmacist Moms Group?

refinance student loans

Suzanne Soliman: There’s never going to be enough time. Ever. For me, I wake up early. So you know, I try to wake up by like 5 o’clock in the morning, before my kids are awake, so I can get some work done during the quiet times. Or I’ll stay up late and get things done when my kids are sleeping. So for me, something’s got to give, right? So for me, it’s been my sleep. So I don’t necessarily do that. I never watch TV. I mean, I rarely if ever, ever, ever watch TV. And I know that’s not great, but I just don’t watch anything on the television except I hear what my children are watching Teen Nick or they’re watching Disney Junior, and I hear that going on in the background. So I know what they’re watching. But I don’t. So for me, it’s just making the time. So if I’m picking up my kids from school, a lot of times, I’m on my phone, checking my email while I’m waiting for them to come out. Or in the morning, when I’m waiting for my drink if I’m at Dunkin Donuts, I’m checking things. I’m sure — there is time somewhere. But something’s got to give. And so during my workouts, when I work out, I listen to podcasts so I’m learning and I’m learning new information at all times. For me, that’s what works. And I just think, again, there’s never going to be enough time. And constantly, if you ask my husband, that’s literally all I ever say is, “There’s not enough time in the day,” like, “I have so much to do,” so it’s really about prioritizing what needs to get done. And I think I said this to you earlier, like I’m really bad at checking my email. So if anyone emails me, I’m so sorry. Like sometimes it takes me a week to get back. And sometimes, I never get back. And it’s just because I look at it — text me if you really need to find me, text me or Facebook Messenger me. I’m a little bit more responsive on both of those, but it’s so hard to keep up. I get so much spam email too that it’s like, I just have — if you look at my inbox, I’m embarrassed to say this, but my inbox on my iPhone, I think it has over, yeah, 228,000 unread messages. So it’s crazy.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, what I like about that — I know I mentioned this to you as well before we recorded — is that, you know, I often feel that itch with email as well, but I try to sometimes take a step back. And if you think about vision of what you’re working on, your movement, or you think about legacy, which I’m going to ask you here about in a minute, you know, at the end of the day, those are the things that you’re going to remember and that are going to have an impact, right? So certainly, email is a necessary evil at times, but it is so easy to spend a day in email and actually do nothing to move the business forward or move the movement forward. So I think that for those that are out there — and this is true with a website, you know, somebody’s trying to start a business and they’re focusing on business cards or website design or all these things, it’s easy to get sucked up into these details that may not actually help you progress and move things forward. So legacy — let me ask you about legacy. And I asked this to Blair Thielemier when I interviewed her on Episode 089 and Ashlee Klevens-Hayes on Episode 095, and it’s one of my favorite questions because I like to hear what people are thinking about in terms of legacy. And I think at the end of the day, this is really one of the things that matters when we think about why are you doing all of this to begin with. And you’ve answered this a little bit, but I’d like to hear a little bit more on this as well. So when you think about the work that you’re doing with the Pharmacist Moms Group today, obviously, what you’re doing is going to be left behind for others to build upon or for others to consume. And for your kids, ultimately, to admire and say, “Yes, that was my mom who did that.” So as you think about what you’re doing with the Pharmacist Moms Group and we fast forward 30, 40, 50 years, what do you want the legacy to be with that work?

Suzanne Soliman: For me, I think that we’ve really helped propel women in pharmacy to really show equality, I want to say, that there’s certain areas that I think that we still need to work on, whether it’s women in leadership positions within pharmacy or some areas of salary as well, especially in academic centers, females are paid still less than males. My goal is to raise my children to be good people that would make — I’d feel like that’s the most important thing on a personal level is that my children grow up and that they’re honest and kind human beings and that they care about others. That’s the ultimate legacy or I think the ultimate way to raise my children. For the group, it’s really just to support women in pharmacy to hopefully one day say that we were able to change the percentage of U.S. college of pharmacy deans, 25% right now that are women, to 50%. I think that is one of the major goals. Or independent pharmacy owners, that more of them are women, that more management, more leadership, that one day we’ll have a retail chain pharmacy CEO that is a female. I think that all of those areas are definitely important for me. They speak to me, they speak to my group, having better maternity benefits for a lot of these women that might have to go back to work right away, that they don’t have a second income to rely on, and they are the breadwinner, and they have to go back, but they’re facing issues with raising their children and working. And I think there are so many things. I think that ultimately, what I would like to create is a group of women that care about one another, that support one another, that bring each other up, you know, that we all really will support one another no matter what. I’m really big on that, on being loyal to one another and helping each other.

Tim Ulbrich: And you’re definitely doing that. So that is awesome, and I appreciate you sharing some of that. And I would encourage for those listening that are thinking about starting a side hustle, starting a movement, starting a business, whatever you want to call it, taking some time to reflect on that question of, what is the purpose of all of this? And if we fast forward 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 years, what is the legacy that you hope to leave in that journey? Because I think that as you get into the details and you get into the weeds and you’re trying to balance schedules and you’re getting up at 5 a.m. and you’re maybe sacrificing time with family at times, really keeping that front and center of the purpose of what you’re trying to do is incredible. And Suzi, one of the things that I’m excited about is we have this kind of movement and pharmacy entrepreneurship that’s going on. I think about the work that you’re doing, I think about the work that Ashlee Klevens-Hayes and Blair Thielemier, Tony Guerra, Alex Barker, I mean, the list keeps going on and on, but thinking about there are certainly as we think about the kids that all of us have, they’re observers of what’s happening. And my kids are young enough, they may not necessarily articulate it, but it’s going to be fun to see what that next generation is going to do as they certainly are going through this time of being a part of it, either indirectly or directly. Last question I have for you is on your website, you had mentioned one of your favorite quotes is “Live life as if everything is rigged in your favor.” Tell me more.

Suzanne Soliman: So that’s from Rumi. So I’m a big believer in everything that might happen, you have to find the good in it. So there have been things that have happened in my life, even decisions or choices that I have made that might not have been the best decisions or might not have been — or choices or things that have happened that have been very difficult. And I think, though, you’re faced with a choice at that point. And you can either feel bad about it — and I did, and I have felt bad — but I think really when you think about it and you think that maybe this happened for a reason, you know, whether it’s — it could be anyone about losing a job, losing a parent, losing someone close to you. It could be going through a divorce, it could be, you know, just different areas, struggling with anxiety, struggling with depression, struggling with substance abuse. It could be any area. But remembering that whatever you might struggle with — it could be struggling with finances, you know, that maybe this happened to you for in your favor. I mean, it could be moving away to a different area and losing your network of friends and contacts and having to start all over and realizing that, you know, God or the universe or whatever you want to call it, placed you in that position for a reason. And you’re in that position for a reason, and now, it’s really to challenge yourself to find out why you’re in that place and learn from it and grow from it. And I think that that’s the beauty of that quote and how I like to live my life, that no matter what happens, there’s got to be some reason why I’m going through that at that moment.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Thank you. So before we wrap up, is there a specific book or podcast or blog or something that you’re reading or listening to that you would recommend to our listeners?

Suzanne Soliman: So I always recommend this book. I’ve listened to it multiple, multiple times. It changed my life. It is called “The Universe Has Your Back” by Gabby Bernstein. I’m not sure how many people are into these kind of books, but it’s one of the most amazing books, and it helped me when I was struggling at certain points in my life. And I have listened to this book. I actually listen to books more than read them because I just don’t have the time to read anymore. So I listened to it multiple times, so I would recommend that to everyone. And I listen to “Super Soul Sunday” by Oprah all the time, so I’m a big Oprah fan. And anything with Oprah, I love listening to and I’m very inspired by and I find it very inspirational.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for coming on the show, sharing the work that you’re doing at the Pharmacist Moms Group. Truly, it has been an inspiration to watch. I continue to look for ways that we can partner and continue to see that group grow and thrive and just congratulations on the awesome work that you’ve done on achieving that mission and vision that you had. So where should our listeners go to learn more about you and the work that you’re doing with Pharmacist Moms Group?

Suzanne Soliman: Sure. They can go right to the website. They can go to www.PharmacistMomsGroup.com, and they can find out more. Or if they want to reach me, they can send an email — like I said, they can try to send an email through that page as well or find me on Facebook or on my Instagram or even Twitter, that I sometimes use as well. So.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So maybe social media instead of email, right? That’s what we learned.

Suzanne Soliman: Yeah, definitely. That’s probably better, yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Thank you again. And for our listeners, if you’ve liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please leave us a review and rate us in iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts each and every week. We’re grateful for your support of the work that we’re doing. And if you haven’t yet, check out YourFinancialPharmacist.com, we’ve got lots of free resources, guides, calculators, tools and checklists to help you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. Have a great rest of your week.

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How to be Fashionable on a Budget

Posted on by yfpadmin

How to be Fashionable on a Budget

The following is a guest post from Dr. Jessica Louie, PharmD, APh, BCCCP, CEO of Clarify Simplify Align and Petite Style Script, Burnout Coach, and Certified KonMari Consultant.

I have nothing to wear… I thought this nearly every day as I stood at my closet door looking at a full closet of clothing. We’ve all been there, right? But, why? When we have a full closet and full dresser of clothes, why can’t we put together an outfit that sparks joy?

This was me 5 years ago. I had accumulated all of these clothes with no intention. The new trend. The new dress for each event. The new handbag everyone was talking about. The new piece of jewelry to accessorize an outfit. I was literally wasting money on clothing I didn’t love. And, I was suffering from decision fatigue – too many options (aka too many pieces of clothing) to make one outfit.

My closet was just one of many areas of my life that was becoming too cluttered. Too stressful. Too chaotic.

It was time to take back control of my life AND my wardrobe. How did I do it? And stick to a budget while purchasing quality items?

I bought less. I applied the KonMari Method to my clothing AND my life.

And you can do it, too! I’ve put together a bonus resource at the end of this post that will give you a complete wardrobe for each season or a year-round guide that you can copy!

I now have a capsule wardrobe for each season. I broke my shopaholic addiction. Are you ready to break yours?

How did I do it? The C.U.R.A.T.E. system. C.U.R.A.T.E. is the same strategy and system I apply to resetting and preventing burnout and setting goals! It’s a useful tool for so many aspects of my life. Hopefully, you’ll also find it useful!

STEP 1: Clarify

STEP 2: Unpack

STEP 3: Reduce & Simplify

STEP 4: Align

STEP 5: Take Action

STEP 6: Evaluate & Enjoy

how to look fashionable on a budget, how to be fashionable without breaking the bank, how to look fashionable on a limited budget

Step 1:

Clarify your why and purpose. Set the vision for how you would like to feel in your clothing. Would you like to feel confident? Comfortable? Professional?

Step 2:

Unpack what you have. Take out all the clothing you currently own. Yes, ALL of it! From every area of your home. Figure out what you own by separating clothing into subcategories.

Step 3:

Reduce and simplify what you have unpacked. Make it easy. How?

1. Pick up each clothing item in your hand and ask yourself 3 questions: Does this spark joy? (also known as Does it speak to my heart? or Do I love it?), Does it fit?, Do I wear it?

2. If yes, keep it with confidence.

3. If no, thank it for what it taught you and let it go with gratitude.

Step 4:

Align your why and purpose from Step 1 with your wardrobe. What is missing from your wardrobe to create the feeling you are after? Write down what pieces you would like to purchase intentionally to complete your wardrobe.

Consider creating a capsule wardrobe – a list of essential clothing items that do not go out of style and that you can wear 7 days a week. You may need a work list and a casual list depending on your work environment and uniform requirements.

Step 5:

Take action to create your capsule wardrobe. Think Quality > Quantity. Intentionally put together a plan to purchase missing items to complete your wardrobe. Take time to find items that truly spark joy, fit, are classic styles and aligned with your vision for an ideal wardrobe.

It may sound counter-intuitive to invest in quality items but purchasing a $100 pair of dress pants once over 5 years is less expensive than purchasing one $25 pair of dress pants every year over 5 years because they wore out, faded, ripped or went out of style.

Another option is to borrow or rent clothing you are unsure about before purchasing it for yourself. For example, I can rent a special occasion dress for a wedding or celebration instead of purchasing one that I’ll wear once or twice. I have also borrowed handbags before deciding if I’ll purchase one myself based on usability, shoulder strain and durability.

I also shop secondhand for high-quality clothing that are new with tags or nearly new from stores like ThredUP by investing in quality items at a lower price point.

Stores I Recommend:

  • ThredUP, TheRealReal or MaterialWorld for high-quality secondhand
  • Banana Republic for men or women
  • Nordstrom for men or women
  • Express for men
  • FIGS scrubs for scrubs and athleisure wear for men or women
  • Costco for men or women

Step 6:

Enjoy and evaluate your outfits! How are you feeling in your clothing?

When you are eyeing an expensive clothing piece, take time to pause, don’t purchase it for at least 7 days, then come back and re-evaluate if this item will add value to your life and your wardrobe.

Too many times I was caught up in purchasing because it was on sale. A sale still costs money. So, take time to pause. Go back to your Alignment stage and check if you were already looking for this item. If you wouldn’t purchase it at full price, you shouldn’t purchase it on sale.

Shop intentionally my friends! Simplify your wardrobe. Lead with confidence. Curate a life you love!

Need more help? Here is a FREE guide!

Download a Seasonal Capsule Wardrobe for your 5-weeks of outfit ideas and step-by-step guide today.

To get this FREE bonus resource, visit Petite Style Script Style Help.

Dr. Jessica Louie, PharmD, APh, BCCCP is CEO of Clarify Simplify Align and Petite Style Script, Burnout Coach, and Certified KonMari Consultant who helps women gain clarity of their purpose, simplify and declutter their home, wardrobes and minds, and align their work into their lives with simple processes to avoid overwhelm, lead with confidence and curate lives they love. Jessica offers Declutter Coaching and Burnout Coaching in-person or virtually to transform people’s lives.

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YFP 101: How to Get Started with Podcasting

Posted on by yfpadmin

How to Get Started with Podcasting

Dr. Hillary Blackburn joins Tim Church on this week’s episode to talk about her unique pharmacy career at Dispensary of Hope, her side hustles, and how she started the Talk to Your Pharmacist Podcast.

Summary

Dr. Hillary Blackburn is a clinical pharmacist, Director of Pharmaceutical Services at Dispensary of Hope, creator and host of the Talk to Your Pharmacist podcast and the Founder and CEO of the Natural Products Resource Center (NPRC). She joins the YFP podcast to speak about her unique pharmacy career and side hustles.

Hillary grew up in Mississippi and graduated from the University of Mississippi. She always thought she would end up in medical school, but after being on clinical rotations she saw how broad of a career pharmacists can have.

Hillary has worked in several capacities as a pharmacist but loves the role she holds as the Director of Pharmaceutical Services at Dispensary of Hope. Dispensary of Hope is a charitable medication distributor that distributes medication to uninsured people in 31 states and over 160 pharmacies and clinics. Her day-to-day schedule at work varies, but you can find her attending meetings, answering emails, planning, and presenting on current pharmacy trends often. She explains that her job is a blend of managed care, management, public health and mission.

After being in Nashville for a year and meeting her husband, who is also very entrepreneurial, Hillary got that entrepreneurial itch, too. She loves to listen to and read content about pharmacy and pharmacy trends and decided to start the Talk to Your Pharmacist Podcast in Spring 2017. She sought guidance in her network and worked with two people in Nashville to learn how to start a podcast. Now, Hillary does everything from start to finish, including identifying a guest, researching the guest and topic, scheduling, recording, and editing. She has since been able to monetize the podcast through sponsorships from companies that have organically found her. She was first approached for sponsorship after releasing 40 episodes in Talk to Your Pharmacist Podcast’s first year. Hillary only supports and suggests brands that she’s tried and believes in.

Hillary is also the founder and CEO of the Natural Products Resource Center (NPRC). Additionally, she also has created Residency Bootcamp evergreen webinars which provide on-demand training to coach people through the residency process. Hillary also moonlights for a retail pharmacy chain. Her extra money is going to a lot of saving, travel, and planning for a family.

Hillary really enjoys her job at Dispensary of Hope and doesn’t find it to be stressful. She’s able to find time to balance her side hustles with her life by prioritizing her health and being driven by passion.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Church: Hillary, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show and for being part of this side hustle edition.

Hillary Blackburn: Awesome, thanks, Tim. It’s an honor to be a guest.

Tim Church: Yeah, we’re reciprocating, right? Since you gave me the opportunity last year. That was really cool to be a part of your show.

Hillary Blackburn: Absolutely. Yeah, I love getting to share with other pharmacy leaders and even getting to meet them in person. Tim Ulbrich was just down in Nashville a few weeks ago and had the pleasure of getting to connect with him as well. So always fun to do some collaborations.

Tim Church: Yeah, when we met last year in Nashville at the APhA annual meeting, it was pretty easy to tell that you’re somebody who’s not only passionate about our profession but also entrepreneurship. So it’s always fun to get a chance to talk with you.

Hillary Blackburn: Yeah, yes. It’s fun to be with other like-minded pharmacists for sure.

Tim Church: So can you talk a little bit about your career path as a pharmacist?

Hillary Blackburn: Sure. So I’m Hillary Blackburn, currently director of pharmaceutical services at Dispensary of Hope, the creator and host of the Talk to Your Pharmacist podcast and the founder and CEO of the Natural Products Resource Center. So clinically trained and have been practicing for the past eight years in a variety of settings. So my career has taken a few, you know, unexpected paths but ultimately, have led me to where I am today. So you know, after attending pharmacy school at the University of Mississippi, I definitely selected rotations to get a very broad experience in clinical rotations but even served as an intern during two summers with the Health Resources and Services Administration’s Office of Pharmacy Affairs in Washington, D.C. Even attended APhA Summer Leadership Institute during one of those summers, which was an excellent experience if any students get the chance to go. And some of you may know that HRSA, or the Office of Pharmacy Affairs oversees the 340b program, which is a program to support the hospitals and clinics across the country who are serving the safety net population. And this was a really unique opportunity because I was able to explore more of that public health standpoint and how to operationalize a national program. And growing up in the Mississippi delta, I was very familiar with some of the lower income population and just had a passion to give back and serve in that way. So after graduating from pharmacy school, I completed my PGY1 residency at the University of Mississippi Medical Center and continued on with that clinical care of being in the ER and ICU, rounding with the internal medicine teams, even having experiences in the ambulatory setting. And you know, after residency, I moved to Nashville and thought I was going to continue on in that path with hospital and really clinical pharmacy but realized that I wanted to change that a little bit and actually worked in the independent pharmacy setting for a family friend and then spent some time working for a health plan, learned all about the prior authorization process, you know, refined my formulary management development skills, and then worked at a specialty mail-order pharmacy. So all of those different experiences really have kind of culminated into where I am now, which is full-time at the Dispensary of Hope, which is a charitable medication distributor, for those of you who aren’t familiar. So since 2012, Dispensary of Hope, which is based in Nashville, has assembled a collaborative of most of the largest drug manufacturers in the pharmaceutical space and most of the largest health systems that are serving the uninsured. And so what we do is we partner with these pharmaceutical companies who donate medicine to us as a wholesale distributor, and then we distribute it to clinics, FUHCs, charitable pharmacies and hospital outpatient pharmacies across the country, serving over 160 pharmacies and clinics in about 31 states now.

Tim Church: Wow.

Hillary Blackburn: So it’s really grown a lot, and this was a role that didn’t exist before I started in this position. And so I’ve been able to really create this as my own, you know, unique role and have really expanded those responsibilities. So not only am I still maintaining our formulary, which I started doing as a volunteer when I had some of my other roles, but now I’m consulting with pharmacy leaders across the country, sharing expertise on affordable medication access, helping with any strategy development for implementing programs to address gaps in pharmaceutical care, lead our research and create tools for successful program implementation and help maintain partnerships with some of our external partners such as colleges of pharmacy. So it definitely keeps me busy, but I still have some time and some passions for some other projects.

Tim Church: So what’s your day-to-day look like at the Dispensary of Hope?

Hillary Blackburn: Yeah, well, it varies, which I thoroughly enjoy. So because we’re also a distributor, we do not see patients, which I do miss that aspect of pharmacy practice. There’s definitely a value of being able to see that direct impact on a patient’s life that you’re helping and improving. But day-to-day, it varies anywhere from, you know, attending meetings with the rest of our team. We do not have any other pharmacists on staff. I do have pharmacy students that are on rotation with me. So we’re really bringing that clinical expertise to the organization. And so you know, sometimes I’ll be doing a lot of emails and having to maintain that professional persona and thinking about strategic things like that, planning presentations. I’ll be going over to South Carolina to talk with the South Carolina SHP or ASHP division, talking about healthcare is getting disrupted, is pharmacy ready? So excited to be traveling and giving some presentations about current pharmacy trends, which is a lot of what I do with my podcast, Talk to Your Pharmacist. So it definitely varies, but I usually have a pretty full plate, which keeps me busy. And I enjoy having students to share that kind of mixture of a little bit of managed care management, public health and mission.

Tim Church: That is just really interesting just because obviously, it’s not the most traditional type of pharmacy position. But what I find very fascinating is just the role that you’re playing and how far the reach is. You mentioned 31 states, multiple facilities that you’re helping facilitate the distribution. I just think that’s amazing.

Hillary Blackburn: It is. And you know, being able to visit the pharmacists and pharmacy technicians that are actually doing the work and taking care of patients is probably my favorite part of my role is when I get the opportunity to go out in the field and learn from them too because then I’m able to bring it back and put together resources and share those best practices across our network of pharmacies and clinics.

Tim Church: That’s really cool. Well Hillary, in our profession, there is a lot of negativity with pharmacists’ job satisfaction, just the role in general. What do you like about being a pharmacist and about your job in general?

Hillary Blackburn: That’s a great question. And you know, I’ll tell you what. When I was planning to go to college, I thought I was going into med school. You know, my parents actually encouraged me to apply to Ole Miss’ early entry pharmacy program. And you know, all along, I kind of thought that I was still going to go to med school. But it wasn’t really until my fourth year of pharmacy, getting to do all of the awesome rotations and see the great diversity that pharmacists have opportunities for, and I mean, it’s just blown up even since I was in school. But that was really the exciting — where my passion just really kind of took off about all of the different opportunities: pharmacists being in the pharmaceutical industry or playing integral roles all throughout the hospital setting and then, you know, now we’re really seeing pharmacists heavily embedded in physician practices and finally being recognized with some provider status designations in certain states. So I think we’re going to start to see that happen in different states, you know, as we’re moving from fee-for-service to value-based care, it’s going to be so important for pharmacists to demonstrate the value that we bring to the healthcare team. So I think that’s something that we all need to keep in mind.
Tim Church: Yeah, I definitely agree. So you’re doing amazing things at the Dispensary of Hope and reaching a lot of people. But at what point did you say, ‘You know what, I have this entrepreneurial itch, and I really want to start a business or just do something in addition to my full-time job?’

Hillary Blackburn: Yeah. You know, I have always been a multi — or I guess just very disciplined about time management. Growing up, I played just about every sport. Being from a small town was great in that I had a lot of opportunities, so I’ve always been really regimented with my schedule. And so staying busy is something that I enjoy. And so after pharmacy school and then residency and then being in Nashville, after I’d been in Nashville for about a year or two, and then met my husband, who’s very entrepreneurial, Nashville is just such a great place for entrepreneurism and innovation in healthcare. And you know, starting this podcast was something that, you know, I had been listening to podcasts about entrepreneurship, I loved “Entrepreneur on Fire,” “How I Built This,” “TED Talks,” there’s “Masters of Scale” is one by Reed Hoffman, the founder of LinkedIn. I had been listening to all of these and thought, wow, I’d love to be able to consume content about pharmacy and all of the different trends and things going on there, so much is happening, and it’s hard to keep up with everything. And so that’s really in the spring of 2017 was kind of when I had this vision, and I’m such a doer, you know, once I get something in my head, I’m like, OK, I’ve got to do it. And so you know, it was created really for pharmacists and student pharmacists and others who want to hear from industry leaders about their leadership stories and perspectives on healthcare topics. And it’s just been kind of a fun passion that has turned into, you know, a revenue source. So it’s always great whenever you can fund your passions. So it’s been a really fun journey.

Tim Church: Definitely. So what are the ways you’re monetizing it right now?

Hillary Blackburn: Yeah, so you know, I really had no expectations on the podcast. I thought, you know, I’m just going to start doing it, and see where it goes. You know, of course some goals would have been like, oh, I’d love to get a sponsor or do affiliate marketing or maybe doing a podcast will lead me to get some paid speaking or consulting engagements, which is really I put it all under the umbrella of the Pharmacy Advisory Group, so I could do advising for companies and things like that. But actually, the way that I’ve monetizing it is some of these companies have just organically come to me. So you know, I’ve just stuck with it, with I think I’ve produced — let’s see — over 40 episodes in the first year. So I was almost releasing one a week, which I have been doing that now because I have a sponsorship commitment. But after doing it almost a year, I was approached by Theraworks Relief, which is an over-the-counter muscle cramp reliever, you know, and have been working with them for since August of 2018. And I don’t support any — or I’m not going to sponsor any products that I don’t fully support and believe in. And so after learning about the company, getting a sample of it, you know, I mean, I went through all of that. And I can honestly say that I use it and have got family members who use it. So for me, I don’t necessarily get a lot of cramps as typically, you might when you get older, have some electrolyte things, Restless Leg, things like that. But from like workouts and things, I guess I tend to use it for that. But I’ve got family members using it. And then secondly, another company, Rx Destroyer, is the newest sponsor that we are partnering with. And it’s a really neat company as well. And they’re a chemical drug destruction solution. So basically, it inactivates medications using activated charcoal. They’ve got, you know, a unique mechanism there. But it’s a drug disposal solution for individuals, you know, we’ve got kind of the opioid crisis right now and people don’t want to have all of these unwanted meds at home. So they can get that product at Walgreens or for businesses. So long-term care facilities, the other facilities who have to be responsible for destruction of medications. They can use this Rx Destroyer, and it helps protect our water supply, they’re compliant, so it’s been really fun that those two companies have been able to essentially seek me out and have been — I’ve really enjoyed being able to work with them and, you know, share about their great products with the pharmacy community.

Tim Church: Yeah. And I think that’s really cool, like when you fully believe in products or services, it’s pretty easy to promote those. And that’s similar to what we do on this podcast as well. But making sure that you vet those companies and services that basically, you’re going to trust them yourselves or with your family members, promoting them or encouraging them to use those. So I think that’s one thing that’s really key because unfortunately, there can be a dark side. I know a number of podcasts or just webistes, and they’ll basically promote anything, you know, just based on the traffic that it gets, so I think that’s a really cool process in the way that you took that approach.
Hillary Blackburn: Yeah, I definitely don’t want to promote anything that I don’t fully believe in, so.

Tim Church: So talk about some of the struggles, the challenges, just getting a podcast up and running because — now, I can’t take credit because the other Tims were the ones that really got this one going from the ground floor — but obviously, there’s a lot involved. So talk a little bit about the beginning stages, what was tough for you? What were some of the challenges?

Hillary Blackburn: Oh, there was a lot of tough things because it’s just like anything when you haven’t done it before, you’re like, well, how do I take the next step? So I was really lucky in getting to connect with two other guys here in Nashville who were really generous about sharing their stories. Matt Bodnar has a really successful podcast called “The Science of Success,” and he’s basically outsourced his entire production, which is certainly something that I would love to do. He can basically come in, read the guest bio and everything’s pretty much done. He’s just the personality and can kind of handle all that. Now, someone else was sharing a little bit about, you know, Zincaster. Tim, you and I, we both are using that as our program to be able to do the recordings. But there are plenty of other recordings, and so this friend, David Schiffrin (?), who works with Health Further, which is a health, I guess, they were solely doing conferences, but they’re doing a little bit of a transition, but all about the future of health and bringing different stakeholders together. He shared how he was doing their podcast, and you know, actually showed me Zincast. Seeing it, I’m very visual, getting to see how it worked, how you do the recording, it’s saved in DropBox, you’ve got to find a host for that, a host site to host your podcast. And so right now, I’m still doing start-to-finish everything from identifying the guests, which for me, that’s the easiest part is I feel like I’ve got a great network of people. I’ve been really fortunate to — I’m pretty extroverted, I guess you could say, for a pharmacist. And I enjoy meeting people and staying up-to-date on news, so that’s the fun part is getting to talk to and identify guests. But you know, you’ve got to do the scheduling and then —

Tim Church: And the editing.

Hillary Blackburn: And the editing and the recording. I use GarageBand for my editing. And so none of these things were things that I knew beforehand. Luckily for me, I thought, yeah, my husband’s really techy, I’ll just go to him to do it. He said, “No, no, no. This is your project. You need to learn.” So there is a true value in YouTube videos. So you know, a lot of YouTube videos, learning how to do some of the editing, you know, you just have to stick with it. And the first episode that you do or the first thing that you do in your — maybe you’re going to do video, whatever you do — it’s not going to be perfect. And I know a lot times, pharmacists are perfectionists. But you just have to get Version 1 out there. So once you get Version 1 out there, then you can kind of start refining and get in the groove. And once you’ve done one, so you know, the whole like “see one, do one, teach one,” once you’ve done it, then you are kind of on your way.

Tim Church: Wow. It’s impressive that you’re doing it all, and we’ve had some help recently after I think Episode 050 just because it is very time-consuming. That’s what I was going to ask you is what’s a typical amount of time for you to take an episode from completely fresh start all the way to finished product?

Hillary Blackburn: Well, I would say in total, the time to connect with the guest, prep, get my questions, do the interview, do the editing – I do have a template that I have for editing, so that helps – and then uploading it and revising on SoundCloud, I would say is probably about 2 hours. I’ve kind of got it nailed down now.

Tim Church: Yeah, it sounds like it. Because I remember I think one episode, I had to edit. And it took me I think at least 2 hours to just do the editing because the tracks were off between the guest and the host or something like that. And I just like, I thought to myself, like this is terrible because I just didn’t know the best ways, how to be efficient on that. But I think like you said, you can definitely cut down the time on a lot of the tasks. But even just getting it up to iTunes, up to that point, just the tasks of actually putting it live, there’s a lot of things involved. And then there’s a whole other animal of actually promoting it. One of the things that you do is really cool is you – I don’t know if you’re using the same tool as we are, we use I think it’s WayForm or Wave or something like that? But how you’re showing the different clips or the audio clips with guests, it’s a really cool way that you’re putting out your podcast when you release those.

Hillary Blackburn: Yes, and that’s something that I learned from someone else. So another pharmacist, Meghan Nicole (?) who’s with the Lazy Millennial, I saw her do it and interviewed her as a guest and I’m like, ‘Meghan, how do you that?’ And so as long as we’re sharing information, you know, just helping others out. So I think that’s really important.

Tim Church: Well, I think you’ve done a great job, and I’ve listened to a number of the episodes, and it’s really cool the variety of guests that you bring on, the topics that you discuss and obviously, it’s doing well and it’s successful because I think you’re up to – what? Episode 074? 075 right now?

Hillary Blackburn: Yes. Yeah.

Tim Church: Yeah. That’s incredible. I mean, I’ve heard stats that so many podcasts, they stop producing after just a small number of episodes. So I think that’s cool that you’ve kept it up and persevered because I know there’s some weeks, depending on how involved you are, where it can be tough to manage everything else you have going on and make it be successful.

Hillary Blackburn: Totally. But you know, batching some of the work, as we were talking about earlier, is helpful. And you know, sometimes at a point, you do have to do some outsourcing like getting an intern to help or a student pharmacist helping me grow my Instagram business, that was definitely with a little bit of help from one of the pharmacy students here in Nashville, she’s been awesome, Christy Fritch (?), she’s over at Belmont. And I think she’s now doing APhA’s student Instagram account, so she’s one of the people behind that now. So she’s been awesome. So yeah, you’ve just got to be able to kind of know what you can do and when you need to bring in other people and make it most effective in that way.

Tim Church: So besides the podcast, I know you’re doing a couple other things for side income. Can you talk a little about those?

Hillary Blackburn: I’ve also done a couple of things, I have a passion for students and love doing precepting but realized that residencies are becoming so competitive, so I hosted two webinars before the residency interview process really got started and charged a little bit for that. But, you know, a reasonable amount for a student. But then put all of that content together into an on-demand, online course on – and that’s available at ResidencyBootcamp.teachable.com. And so that’ll be available next year and the next year. So it’s really evergreen content and at an affordable price. So next year, when students are ready to look at interviews and things, but it’s really applicable for any interview process too. So you know, a lot of those things are transferable. The final thing that I do, and it’s helpful to stay in touch with what’s happening in the retail setting is I’ll still do some moonlighting for a retail pharmacy chain. And it helps to keep me up-to-date on what’s happening in that space. But it’s always helpful to have a little extra fun money for shopping or different things.

Tim Church: Is that where most of the additional income is coming – is that where it’s going?

Hillary Blackburn: Well, so we actually are really fortunate because we do a lot of saving. So we live off of my income solely. So you know, a lot of times, people are living on two incomes and then you add another person, and then you take away an income, and then you’re like, whoa, we’re used to this extravagant lifestyle. So you know, we’ve been really diligent about trying to live off of one income since we’ve been married. But we still love to travel. I mean, we’ve taken amazing trips to Greece, Cuba, we went to Thailand for our honeymoon. We’re always doing some kind of adventure trip, whether it’s even to family vacations to Whistler, Breckenridge, but we enjoy to travel. And you know, doing fun things around Nashville. But we also have a good balance, so having that budget of getting used to living on one income has been really helpful as we’re getting ready for the next phase of life and planning for family and all that kind of thing.

Tim Church: So how do you manage all of these things that you’re doing with your full-time job and personal life? Because I hear from a lot of pharmacists who say, you know, “I’m just trying to make it at my full-time job and keep sanity at home,” with their significant other or their family. What seems to work best for you?

Hillary Blackburn: Well, I really enjoy my job. And so I don’t have a lot of stress from that. But when I am home, you know, I really try to make sure that that part of my life is healthy too. So getting 8 hours of sleep, drinking – you’re supposed to drink your body weight divided by two, like that many ounces – so like drinking enough water, exercising. I’m a big fitness person and love to do triathlons and things in the summer. You know, we don’t watch a lot of TV. So I don’t come home and turn on the TV. Oftentimes, I’m not even turning that on. I’m working on – I’ll make dinner, make sure I’ve had a workout in and have some quality time with my husband and you know, maybe I’m preparing for Bible study or something. But sometimes, it just depends. You have different seasons of life, and sometimes I do feel really busy, like last year, there were definitely seasons – you know, 2018 was a pretty big year for our family, but I think that you’ve got to be able to prioritize and make sure you’re taking care of yourself.

Tim Church: I definitely agree. And I think you hit it there where there’s seasons where you’re going to be really shifted in one direction. And I kind of believe in that mentality. There was a book called “The One Thing” by Gary Keller and Jay Papasan. And they kind of demystified and debunked the myth of work-life balance in that if you try to be balanced in everything, what ends up happening is you basically just become mediocre at all of those things. And sometimes, to really achieve the next level of success that you’re going to be shifting in that direction temporarily. And then obviously, you have to come back in order to maintain relationships and other aspects of your life. But it sounds like that’s sort of the way that, the rhythm for the way things have gone for you.

Hillary Blackburn: I would say so, yeah.

Tim Church: So what advice, Hillary, would you give to other pharmacists and even students out there who have an interest in becoming an entrepreneur?

Hillary Blackburn: You know, I would say stick with it. So you’re maybe not going to find the ultimate success within the first week or six months or a year. It’s going to take awhile, so stick with it and keep working hard, put in that work ethic. Stay hungry. So you know, I think that that term is kind of often used at the Entrepreneur Center in Nashville. You want to stay hungry and keep looking for things. I think if you follow some of the great entrepreneurs who are out there doing some awesome things like Tony Robbins and Gary Vaynerchuk and some of the other ones who you’ve got to follow people that you want to be like. So if there are pharmacy leaders that, you know, maybe you want to own your own business. Well, look at who in pharmacy is doing that. You guys have interviewed a lot of entrepreneurs. Start following some of those guests. What do they do? But ultimately, I think that as long as you’re providing value, that’s key. I think something that I’ve really focused on a lot over the past two years is not only personal and professional development, so reading books, so that lifelong learning is just so important.

Tim Church: Yeah, I was going to ask you, which ones would you recommend that have had a big impact on your life?

Hillary Blackburn: Well, I think one of the biggest ones was “Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,” and the sad thing is that I got this book as a resident and felt like I didn’t have time to read it. And then now in my current role at Dispensary of Hope, we read it – or I read that and then as an organization, we read it. And that was just kind of had so many Aha! Moments. But I now use Audible, which helps to consume more of that content, kind of like what I enjoy with the podcasts, being able to listen to it when you’re in the car, traveling, being efficient. Maybe you’re at a workout, trying to get your workout in and read a book. Some of the other great ones that I’ve read about kind of business or entrepreneurship have been “Good to Great,” “EntreLeadership” by Dave Ramsey, “Outliers: The Story of Success” by Malcolm Gladwell. And then right now, I just finished “Crush It” by Gary Vaynerchuk. And so you know, there’s probably so many more – actually Tim Ulbrich recommended reading when I connected with him the one on – oh! “Never Split the Difference.” So that’s kind of been –

Tim Church: Oh yeah, about negotiation.

Hillary Blackburn: Yes. Yeah. And you know, these are just some of these are like life skills. And so how do you handle conflict resolution? And even like learning more about change management. I think John Cotter is the one that has a couple books out on that. You’ve got to be able to lead, and so any type of books on leadership, I think those are all going to be really helpful.

Tim Church: Well Hillary, it’s been a pleasure having you on the show. And really appreciate you sharing your story and all the things that you’re up to. What is the best way for someone to reach out or learn more about what you do?

Hillary Blackburn: Absolutely, I love getting to connect with other people. So first, the website is www.pharmacyadvisory.com, and there are show notes for any of the podcast episodes there and a sign-up for our email list. So when we do newsletters and things, you can find us there. I have a Facebook page and Instagram account as Talk to Your Pharmacist. And you can find me on Twitter and LinkedIn as Hillary Blackburn.

Tim Church: Great. Thank you so much, Hillary.

Hillary Blackburn: Awesome. Thanks, Tim! It was so fun to get to talk with you. Thanks for having me as a guest.

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