YFP 399: From Pre-Approval to Closing: Understanding the Mortgage Process (and Common Mistakes to Avoid)

Tim Ulbrich, YFP Co-Founder is joined by mortgage loan officer Tony Umholtz to discuss the mortgage process. They break down key steps, from getting pre-approved to closing, highlighting important considerations and common mistakes to avoid when buying a home.

This episode is brought to you by First Horizon.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Tim Ulbrich, YFP Co-Founder and CEO is joined by Tony Umholtz, a mortgage loan officer with First Horizon Bank as they break down one of the biggest financial commitments you’ll ever make—buying a home.

Taking out a mortgage is a massive financial decision, one that can impact your life for decades. From getting pre-approved to signing those final papers at closing, there’s a lot to consider—and a lot of mistakes to avoid.

Tim and Tony walk listeners through the mortgage process step by step. They  cover what you need to know before getting pre-approved, how the bank sets your max loan amount, and how to avoid common pitfalls throughout the process.

About Today’s Guest

Tony Umholtz is the Senior VP of Mortgage Banking at First Horizon. He graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants, and the New England Patriots.

Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay, and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine, and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Key Points from the Episode

• [00:00] Welcome and Market Overview
• [00:58] Current Market Conditions and Predictions
• [01:20] Impact of Inflation and Unemployment on Interest Rates
• [02:23] Regional Market Fragmentation
• [03:15] Affordability Challenges for First-Time Homebuyers
• [04:03] Understanding Your Budget and Financial Plan
• [05:17] Lender’s Perspective on Affordability
• [06:46] Debt-to-Income Ratio Explained
• [09:27] Student Loans and Mortgage Affordability
• [14:06] Importance of Credit Scores in Mortgage Lending
• [19:29] Pre-Approval vs. Pre-Qualification
• [23:41] Common Mistakes in the Lending Process
• [28:18] Understanding Self-Employed Income for Loans
• [30:31] Importance of Early Communication with Lenders
• [32:05] Navigating Loan Options and Interest Rates
• [39:55] The Pharmacist Home Loan Product
• [43:21] Behind the Scenes: From Contract to Closing
• [55:09] Final Thoughts and Resources for Homebuyers

Episode Highlights

“ We need to stop bemoaning the interest rates of 2020, 2021. Those days are gone. If those days come back, there’s going to be an opportunity to refinance, but we’ve got this new reality in front of us.” – Tim Ulbrich [3:04]

“ Banks and lenders have to show that the borrower has the ability to repay, and there’s certain documentation that’s required as a result of that.” – Tony Umholtz [05:41]

“ People don’t always realize that too. If one spouse or co borrower has lower credit scores that can influence the loan pricing.” – Tony Umholtz [09:12]

“ Credit is critical to to all of the lending world. Income is super critical too, because you have to show the ability to repay. But a lot of programs now have minimum credit scores. So if you don’t meet that threshold, you’re not qualified.” – Tony Umholtz [14:33]

“ It’s really one of the safest times that I’ve ever seen as far as lending goes to, to buy because the regulatory environment is very consumer friendly.” – Tony Umholtz [38:50]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

• YFP Mortgage Calculator
• YFP Episode 212: Common Credit Blunders to Avoid When Buying a Home
• YFP Episode 380: Understanding and Improving Your Credit
• YFP Article: 5 Easy Steps to Get a Home Loan…Even If You Don’t Have 20% Down
• First Horizon
• YFP YouTube Channel
• YFP Book a Discovery Call
• YFP Disclaimer
• Subscribe to the YFP Newsletter
• Tim Ulbrich on LinkedIn
• YFP on Instagram
• YFP Facebook Group
• Tony Umholtz on LinkedIn

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, welcome back to the show.

Tony Umholtz: Tim, thanks for having me. Good to see you.

Tim Ulbrich: Good to see you as well. And as always excited to have you on as our mortgage lending expert to bring great information to our community and audience. And we’re going to talk about the A to Z of the mortgage process, uh, all the way from pre approval to closing. But before we do that, as I always do, I want to ask.

I can get your take on what the heck is going on in the market. Where are we at? And what might 2025 bring? It feels like we’ve had this conversation a few times of, Hey, rates, rates are stubborn, supply is limited. Demand is high. What, what do you see out there in the market and what’s ahead for the year?

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, all good [00:01:00] questions, Tim. It’s definitely interesting times. Um, you know, a lot going on, different markets can vary a little bit, you know, across the country clearly, but we are seeing more inventory. So that’s the good news for buyers. There’s more inventory of existing homes on the market than there’s been in some time.

So the inventory levels are increasing. I would say that one concern, you know, obviously is inflation. Inflation is It has yet to be completely beaten in the fed’s eyes, right? So I think I think we’re going to see inflation ease down probably in the coming months because Year over year inflation it reports will factor in some lower months You know april may june of last year into the annual figures and I think you’re going to see That inflation rate come down also got to watch the unemployment rate too.

Cause the unemployment rate is near all time lows, but I think that could tick up a little higher. [00:02:00] And if that does even just fractionally, that can help with interest rates. So I do think there’s a chance rates could be a little bit better in the next six months. But I wouldn’t bet on like a really seeing anything like the 2021 or 2020, but overall, the economy is pretty healthy.

There’s just risks to watch. And I think rate wise, it’s inflation. And, um, you know, but then there’s some areas that have been hit, you know, obviously, L. A. with the fires, right, Florida with the hurricanes, housing markets. Are affected by that. And, you know, we see I’m based in Florida and we can see like this fragmented market where certain areas that weren’t affected by flooding have, you know, all time highs in prices were issues along the coast are, you know, some of those homes have been hit pretty hard and the values are down, probably an opportunity in the long run, but it’s just there is some fragmentation to the housing market.

But overall, I would say, um, you know, [00:03:00] inventory levels being higher is going to help buyers.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s good to hear. And I, I think we need to stop bemoaning the, uh, interest rates of 2020, 2021 and those days are gone. Right. And, you know, we, we’ve got a new reality, you know, maybe they come down slightly. If, if those days come back, there’s going to be an opportunity obviously to refinance, but we, we’ve got this new reality in front of us and Tony, what I’m hearing from a lot of pharmacists, homebuyers, especially first time homebuyers is.

You know, salaries have remained relatively flat. You know, some have seen a substantial increase. Student loan debt is still a thing very much for a lot of our audience. But the home prices and the appreciation that’s happened alongside of the interest rates that have gone up, it’s really changed the affordability question, you know, for a lot of Pharmacists, especially first time homebuyers, and for many, I think it’s changed that expectation of what might be within budget, and I want to start there as we talk about the A to Z of the process from pre approval to closing, because I [00:04:00] think first and foremost, we have to know our budget.

We have to understand that what are we able to afford and our own financial plan, and I’ll get your take in a moment here on kind of how the bank makes this determination, but it’s really up to you as the individual to determine what that is. Mortgage payment with principal interest taxes and insurance referred to as as pity works with your income, your expenses, your various goals.

Keyword being your right. Everyone’s situation is different and any mortgage calculator. And we’ve got a YFP mortgage calculator that we can link to in the show notes as well. Any mortgage calculator will ask you for inputs on what’s the target loan amount, what’s the down payment, what’s the interest rate, what’s the term, what’s the taxes, and and the insurance aspects of the buy as well.

And all of those things we have to factor into as we’re looking at how does this home purchase, how does this decision factor into the [00:05:00] broader financial plan. So Tony, I’m going to stop with my rant on, you know, how people need to be thinking about their individual purchase and how it fits into the broader context of their plan and their goals and get your take on how the lender determines what the buyer can afford.

Because early on in this process is going to come a pre approval, but before we get that pre approval, we have to understand how the bank thinks about the lending decision and what ultimately a home buyer can afford. Hmm.

Tony Umholtz: Right. That’s right. So all lenders are required to prove it’s called the ATR rule. The ability to repay pretty simple, but it’s. Banks and lenders have to show that the borrower has the ability to repay, and there’s certain documentation that’s required as a result of that. So that’s why lenders will ask for your pay stubs, tax returns if you’re self employed, bank statements, asset statements, uh, work history.

They’re required by law [00:06:00] to prove, you know, per that rule, right, the ability to repay the loan. So, I would say that, you know, you hit it on, you, you hit it right on there, Tim. I mean, you want to prove. First of all, backtrack before you go to a lender, get your own budget together. Like what can I afford? What really can I afford?

Cause the lender might be able to approve me for more than I’m willing to pay. Right. That does happen. You might have a travel budget. You might have, um, a savings goal.

Tim Ulbrich: Right. Right.

Tony Umholtz: And, and you, you come in and you say, well, wait a minute, I can qualify for the 800, 000 home, but I don’t, I don’t want that. Right.

It’s because my budget doesn’t allow that. So I think having your budget is important. I think the other thing. Us as lenders are going to look at your, your debt to income ratio. So that’s the buzzword here, debt to income ratio. So as a lender, we assess you based upon how much income to debts that [00:07:00] you have per month.

So let’s just say your income is 10, 000. Okay. That’s your gross income. And lenders always use gross income. If you’re W2, we use your gross, not your net. So that’s been a question over the years that I’ve received. And we use your gross income and let’s say your liabilities before the mortgage. Our 4, 000 a month before you get a mortgage.

Well, typically we’re not going to lend you more than a 43 percent debt to income ratio. So already right there, if you’re making, you’re paying 4, 000 a month in debt, let’s say it’s student loans. You have a couple of cars, it’s 4, 000 a month. There’s not a lot there to buy a home.

Tim Ulbrich: Mm hmm.

Tony Umholtz: that’s how lenders look at it.

It’s based upon the debt to income ratio. And that’s a simple way to illustrate it is if your gross income is 10, 000, Your liabilities are 4, 000 a month where you’re at a 40 percent debt to income ratio. Most programs are 43%. There are a few that will go up to 49 percent debt to income ratio, but [00:08:00] that’s generally where you’re going to be.

So, and that includes the new mortgage. So that’s how lenders look at you, look at you as a borrower. We have a ratio to your income to your liabilities, and that’s how we prove the ability to repay the loan.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tony, when a lender’s looking at that ability to repay the loan, the ATR rule that you mentioned, the debt to income ratio, um, inclusive of course of what that new payment will be. Is that principal and interest only? That they’re, they’re factoring in

Tony Umholtz: It’s P I T I,

Tim Ulbrich: P I T I.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, it’s P I T I. So taxes and insurance matter as well. So it’s that whole, that’s entire collective amount. Um, so that’s, that’s how we review it. And again, it’s, and it’s all borrowers on the loan too. So if you have, um, a spouse that’s on the loan with you, obviously we use your spouse’s income as well.

So it would be collective income, you know, or if you have a co borrower, uh, it’d be collective income. So that’s how, it’s one way. Folks are able to qualify for more, [00:09:00] um,

Tim Ulbrich: too, right?

Tony Umholtz: debt as well. That’s right. That’s right. But, um, you got to remember that too. It’s true. Uh, it is collective debt and it’s collective credit scores.

People don’t always realize that too. If one spouse or co borrower has lower credit scores that can influence the loan pricing. Um, so that’s something to keep in mind too. Even if the other borrower, the main primary borrower has better credit.

Tim Ulbrich: have a question about credit that I want to come back to here in a moment, but I want to first tackle what I’m guessing many of our listeners are thinking as they hear you talk about the ability to repay rule and the debt to income ratio, which is my student loans, right? You know, we certainly do have people that may have some credit card debt.

Some car debt, um, other debt that may, may be hanging around as well. But student loans tends to be the grill in the room when we think of many pharmacists, especially first time homebuyers. Uh, we might have some listening that are thinking about a homebuyer that’s not the first time and maybe the student loans are [00:10:00] gone.

And certainly that would free up some things on the debt to income ratio. But if we think of a traditional pharmacy graduate coming out with 170, in student loans, Depending on their loan repayment plan, that can be a sizable monthly payment. So if you put that debt on a standard 10 year repayment, you’re talking about 1, 900 to 2, 000 a month.

On the other hand, you might have somebody that, you know, is looking at an income driven repayment plan and they’re, they’re really optimizing the calculation and they’ve got that down substantially, 700 a month. Wow, that can have a big impact. Tony on how that gets factored in. So given all the uncertainty right now about student loans and what’s happening and people that are on, uh, pauses because of the uncertainty with the save plan, how are lenders thinking about.

Student loans. Are they applying a generic calculation or are they getting to the level of detail of, Hey, this person’s on a standard repayment. This person’s on an income [00:11:00] driven repayment.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, it’s a great question, Tim. So I, so a couple of things, uh, the, the first thing is most clients that come to us are already kind of ahead of the game. They have one of those two options. I find the income based repayment plan is what we like to see, right? That’s what normally is what I see. Um, because.

The, the, the payment is then gives them the ability to borrow more and buy a home, um, or pay rent or whatever it might be. Um, so normally we see that income based repayment and that’s what we encourage everyone to go to if we can. Um, there is a factor though for those that aren’t quite set up. There is a factor that we have on some of our programs that takes a factor of the loans.

So like, for example. One of our products is at half percent of the balances per month. So for, if you had a, um, a hundred, a hundred thousand dollar loan, that would be a 500 a month payment, right? [00:12:00] Where Fannie Freddie are typically 1 percent month

Tim Ulbrich: got it.

Tony Umholtz: conventional loans or FHA. So there’s some products out there that can give you a little bit more flexibility.

Um, which is, is needed a lot of times in with your clients, uh, in, you know, the audience. But, um, I find that the income based, I would encourage everyone if they can, if they have that option, the income based repayment is going to give you the most flexibility and allow you to have the, you know, kind of the best approach to, to, uh, financing a big purchase like a home.

Um, because if you have that 10 year, you know, like you said, 1, 900 a month versus maybe 500 a month really locks you in. You know, it doesn’t give you a lot of capacity to borrow.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, it’s interesting. There’s a lot of strategy here. And, you know, I’m thinking about more of the work that our planning team does where not Anyone decisions in a style. This is a great example where if you’ve got student loans that you’re paying off And you’re thinking about buying a home [00:13:00] You can’t look at those as independent variables and and of course there’s many other parts of the plan as well But knowing the debt to income ratio is based on gross income I’m specifically thinking about our folks that work in the non profit Sector that might be pursuing something like a public service loan forgiveness strategy that are on an income driven repayment plan and are optimizing that plan Not advice, but just kind of talking about how the calculations work and they’re optimizing that plan.

By really making contributions to, you know, traditional 401k’s or traditional 403b’s that might be making HSA contributions, other types of things where they’re reducing what that monthly payment will be, um, through the calculations of the income driven repayment plan, all the while making their debt to income ratio, you know, more favorable.

And of course, having you. More loans that would be forgiven and ideally forgiven tax free. So just a great example where, Hey, if I’ve got student loans and I’m going down this pathway, this strategy, and I’m also thinking about buying a home, we got to bring these two discussions [00:14:00] together and figure out how the different Uh, pieces of the puzzle ultimately work, work together.

So credit, I want to come back to my credit question, Tony, what role does a credit score play in getting a mortgage? I think the obvious being of course, better credit is, is going to be more, more favorable lending terms, but for our listeners that especially are going through this for the first time, like how much does credit matter when it comes to not only getting approved, but getting the best products at the best rate.

Tony Umholtz: right? Well credit is critical to to all of the lending world uh Obviously income is is super critical too because you have to show the ability to repay But a lot of programs now tim they have minimum credit scores. So if you don’t meet that threshold, you’re not qualified so, um Uh, and like us as an institution, as a bank, we have a minimum credit score, uh, depending on the products, you know, [00:15:00] some are lower than others, uh, but, but credit scores matter to rates as well, right?

Big, it’s a big influence on rates. So if you have, you know, a, a lower credit and that can dictate what product I’m going to recommend too, right? So if the, your credit score is a little bit lower, let’s say you have a, a six 20 credit score. And you come to me with less money down and I can maybe get you Qualified for conventional or FHA Well, I may say FHA in that in that situation because the rate may be better based on your credit score So everybody’s a little different everyone’s situations different but credit scores are very important and i’ll just mention a couple quick things um I’ll just add this in to him.

I just a couple things just for my years of doing this Uh 22 and a half years of this industry Is Mistakes. And I brought this up in the past, maybe a couple of years ago, but I’ll just reiterate it. And one thing where most people get caught up is I [00:16:00] find a lot of my clients are concerned about inquiries, right?

Oh, my credit’s run. I’ll have an inquiry. And inquiries are the least amount impactful on your credit. You don’t want a whole bunch of them. And you definitely don’t want a bunch from multiple creditors, you know, getting credit cards and things like that. But where I see the biggest mistakes is credit card usage.

So if you have a 5, 000. Visa credit card and you go and you buy something for 4, 500 and it’s not being paid down that hits your credit much worse than an inquiry. And the other thing I see is. Buying furniture, buying TVs, when they give you no interest for a year, it’s a great deal. And I even did it on one of my first homes when I was in my mid, my mid twenties.

And I’ll never forget my credit score and down 60 points because I had multiple maxed out credit cards for this no interest for a year. So that’s just a couple of things that, you know, younger buyers and any buyer can look at, but you want to make sure all your [00:17:00] payments are on time. And the credit score is very, very important.

And one other thing I’ll mention as well is monitoring services. The monitoring services do not always tell you exactly or specifically what your actual credit score is that, that a creditor like us is going to see. Okay. They’re going to give you trends. Like I have some people tell me, Oh yeah, my, my, my score is eight 60.

Well, they don’t even go that high. Okay. So, and then you’ll run the credit report and it’s seven 70. And it’s just because it’s still great credit score, but the tracking services are not the

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. Mm-hmm

Tony Umholtz: what we’re looking at. So I try to encourage people to, to that. It’s great that you subscribe to that. It does give you overall trend, but that is not exactly what a creditor score is going to be.

Tim Ulbrich: So you’re talking about like a Credit Karma or some service out? Right.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah. Yeah. I think some of the credit card companies discover all they, they offer these services that track your credit and [00:18:00] people will even scan these to me and say, Hey, this is where I’m at. And, and, and it gives me a good trend, but that’s not what your scores are, you know? So, and then there’s three, there’s three scores that lenders look at as well.

Okay. So that’s another thing I want everyone to know is. There’s Experian, Equifax, and TransUnion. Those are the three large, you know, basically repositories of credit information. And when lenders, mortgage companies run your credit, we use the median score. The median score, so your mid score.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think your, your discussion of credit is just such a good reminder here in the home buying process, but as an overall part of the financial plan, I, I feel like credit, kind of like tax, right? It has a thread that runs across everything. Um. And we’ve talked at length, not only you and I, but we’ve also done some other episodes on understanding credit scores, you know, why it’s important to check your credit report, uh, understanding the components and make up of the credit score.

You were talking about utilization there just a few [00:19:00] moments ago, the more you know about credit, the more you can start to understand. And especially thinking about our listeners, Tony, that maybe they’re saying, Hey, I’m going to buy. A year out, two years out, or I’m not even thinking about it now. What a great time to really solidify your, your credit so that when you get to that point in decision of buying, you know, you’re, you’re ready to go and, and you’ve ultimately, uh, made your credit the best that it can be.

So such an important topic, all of this, Tony leads up to the pre approval. So as we wrap up this first section, we’re talking about pre approval budget. You know, the, the bank’s going to ask us to submit a bunch of information that’s going to help them determine what is that. Ability, right, that they have to be able to lend a certain amount of money and through the submission of information in terms of pay stubs, pay stubs and work history, we’re obviously doing a credit, uh, pull and check as well.

They’re going to then hopefully issue what would be a pre approval. So remind us of that pre approval. [00:20:00] Why is that pre approval so important and how that differentiates from pre qualifications, which I’m seeing more and more out there as well.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, another good question. So a pre qualification is not validated data by a lender, right? So it’s basically, um, a lot of online Services and pages have this where you can pretty much or verbally supply your information. So if you were to call and say, you know, Tony, I make 100, 000 a year. I have 2 debts, 2 car payments at 500 a month.

And, um, that’s it. Right. And then you would send out, nothing’s validated, right? Credit score might not be run. I haven’t seen your, your pay stubs. Haven’t seen your W2s. Haven’t seen your credit. Like I mentioned. So it’s verbal data. Right. And, and that’s why. Those letters generally don’t carry much weight in the real estate community.

So if you go to a realtor and say, I want to [00:21:00] make an offer, or I want to work with you to find a home, a lot of times they’ll say, well, do you have a pre approval and if you answer, no, I have a prequalification, they. They’re not going to put much weight in that. So the prequalification is fine just for basic knowledge.

I think if you’re just trying to think ahead of time, you’re a few months away from your, you know, really getting into the home buying process. It’s fine to do that. Like I give verbals to people all the time. They’ll call me, especially past clients to say, do you just kind of thinking about this? And does this make sense? But we’re not going to give them anything in writing like that. It’s more just a conversation, but when you’re ready to go look at homes and walk into open houses, a lot of times they’re going to want that letter. So that pre approval letter carries a lot more weight because we’ve ran credit. We’ve seen your income, um, whether it’s W 2s or pay stubs, we’ve seen your liabilities.

So then we can say, okay, in writing. This client is approved for this 700, 000 [00:22:00] mortgage. And a lot of times the listing agent will want that before you even go into the house, you know, just depends on the, the area and the situation, but a lot more weight is given to that preapproval letter. And those are generally good for 90 to 120 days.

Um, so you got some length before you have to update them, but, uh, yes, it’s a big difference. It’s, it’s validated versus unvalidated would be a good way to say it.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, the way I think about it, Tony is, you know, that letter, that pre approval letter becomes the key, if you will, that you can really go out, work with a realtor and put in an offer, uh, and feel, feel good about the process moving forward. And I’m glad you mentioned the timeline, 90 to 120 days, because I think that’s one thing that first time home buyers, especially might not be thinking about is how long does that last?

And Ideally, you start this process because it’s going to take time, right? To gather all of your documents. And, uh, I’m thinking about the [00:23:00] last time, Tony, that even went through this with you guys, like you’ve got an online portal helps you kind of walk through each of the individual steps you can’t submit, right?

Until you, you have all the check boxes of the individual, uh, items uploaded and it could just take time to gather. those documents and make sure you have all the right information. And we all know from experience how quickly we can go from, hey I think I want to buy a home, to we want to put an offer. So If it’s within the realm of, hey, I think we might start to be serious about looking, I think moving that pre approval process forward, knowing that you’ve got a 90 to 120 day ish timeline, uh, can be a really smart thing to do for people that are in that, that search phase.

Tony, I want to tap into more of your experience, uh, to, to get your insight on some of the common mistakes that you see. Out there that are, that are made throughout the lending process. And then we’ll continue on talking about some of the different loan options, uh, as well as wrapping up with the closing side of things.

We talked about a big one [00:24:00] already, which was the credit mistakes. And, uh, I love your example of, Hey, if you go finance a thousand dollar piece of furniture and you max out that line, that’s a problem. And people might not be thinking about that. So beyond credit mistakes that people can avoid, what are some of the other big mistakes that you see out there that.

Uh, home buyers are, are making in the process that they could be on the lookout for, and, and ideally avoid.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, I mean, again, in this kind of going over my career and mistakes that I’ve seen and, you know, it’s one of the One of the biggest things I feel like nowadays people are much more informed than they were when I started my career 20 plus years ago. I mean, there’s more people are more informed. I think where I see some mistakes now are this type of property you’re buying.

And what I mean by that is some clients are buying condominiums and they don’t always know the challenges that come along with that [00:25:00] condominium. Yeah. You may not have to mow the grass or take care of the shrubs or whatever it might be, but HOAs, special assessments. Especially in certain states like, you know, for example, Florida, we had the surfside incident.

There’s been a lot of regulatory challenges that have been placed on on condos and made them much more difficult to finance, much more expensive. And I’m not saying don’t buy condos. I don’t want, I mean, they’re especially in some states. They’re the best option available. Um, like if you’re in a more urban setting, sometimes that’s all that’s available.

It’s affordable, but I think doing your due diligence on the building itself is very important. And I’ve seen some people making mistakes recently in that regard. So if you decide you want to buy a condominium, just, you know, a lot of that’s property specific, right? Um, I think it’s also just, you know, making sure you understand the insurance.

Uh, what comes along with your coverages? Um, you know, uh, some of the insurance companies [00:26:00] now are doing roof schedules instead of an entire roof replacement and look, probably not a lot of worry about that in Ohio. But if you’re on the coast in Texas or in Florida and you have a storm, it damages your roof.

We’re seeing some problems with that here right now. Um, so just understanding the coverages you have. But again, it’s very specific to where you are in, in, in the country, you know, um, I, I think the other thing is, is, uh, floating the market sometimes. I mean, people come to me, what I mean by that is once you get a contract on a home, you’re eligible to lock your rating.

And I, I’ve mentioned this, I’ve always been a bit of a finance nerd. So I’m watching the markets. I’m watching bonds. I’m doing all these things. And I try to give my clients the best. Feedback. I can, and I pass it along to my team. We meet and talk about this daily. Um, but it’s volatile, right? It’s a volatile market and, and rates go up and [00:27:00] down. I have had some people, and I tend to be people who are feel like they’re more informed on the markets. Typically not medical professionals. It’s more like people in the business world that I’ve had. And I’ll kind of say my recommendation is lock. Well, I think I’m going to float it. And of course the rates go up a half point and things like that.

And look, I’m not saying I’m always right. I’m not clearly, I wouldn’t be here. I’d be trading on some Island if I knew everything and had a crystal ball. But I think sometimes taking too much risk is a problem. I kind of like a bird in hand. If you’ve gotten a gain, the rates have come down a little bit since you’ve gone under contract.

You might want to lock that gain in. It’s always been my experience, you know, take, take it off the table. Unless you really see a downtrend. We saw that during COVID, we could all identify it, but normally like in this environment, you get a gain, you should take it. Um, you know, the, the other thing is just not understanding the type of income you have, and most of your audience, Tim is [00:28:00] W2’d for the most

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, most part. Mm

Tony Umholtz: but, but not everyone, some have 1099 income.

A lot of physicians are doing locums, right? They, they’ll come to us and they, they, they had some fragmentation in their income because they, they, they worked here for six months and lenders don’t treat all income the same. And you have to understand that. I had a gentleman in my office just before this call, past client of mine, and he took a lot of losses on his business, uh, the last few years.

And he had to do it because of some competition abroad. But the problem is the end of the day, we’ve got to use what he reported to the IRS. So you always got to remember lenders have to use what you, they, what they, what you reported to the IRS. And, you know, people will say, well, I actually made more than that, but there’s ways we can add back certain expenses, like especially non cash expenses, like amortization, depreciation, some things like that can be added back into your [00:29:00] overall income if you’re self employed.

But that’s another mistake I see, Tim. Again, not as relevant with all of your audience, but some, maybe someone out there is when you’re self employed, it’s important to understand how you’re getting paid and what you’re getting paid. Are you an S corp or your 1099 LLC? These things are important when you apply for a loan.

So there’s a little more complexity there, but I think it’s important. That’s the mistakes I see is they’re all, they’re almost, I’ve had, I mean, I literally have one person under contract right now who we’re going to have to scramble to figure out how to qualify. And they never came to us first.

Tim Ulbrich: Mm.

Tony Umholtz: and it’s, it’s pretty substantial contract on a home, like a dream home, but that should have been planned ahead of time and let us look, review everything before it comes to this.

So I know it’s long winded. I’m just trying to think of some current things I’m seeing right now in this environment. In the past, there was different risks. Now it’s just really property specific, your [00:30:00] income. I think the other thing would be how far away you are from your job is important to, uh, it’s gotta be reasonable.

Right. You can’t be buying a home to, you know, 200 miles away from where your daily commute is. I’ve had a few people do that. I’m scratching my head. I’m like, well, a primary home may not be a primary home, maybe a secondary home, you know? So I think those are the things, just make sure you have your plans accurately spelled out to the lender at application.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned the self employed income because you’re, you’re right. There’s not a large percentage of pharmacists. There are certainly some listening out there that need to be thinking about that well in advance. And, um, I think communication is, is what I’d recommend they’re just early communication with the lender.

So you understand how they would view the calculation and what information is, is needed and might take a little bit more work to get all that information and make sure you understand. Certainly a decent amount of number of people in our audience that might have a [00:31:00] spouse or a significant other partner that owns a business.

I just had a conversation earlier today where. A pharmacist is a ED clinical pharmacist, but their, their spouse owns a construction company. Um, so maybe their income is pretty stable and, and all W 2, but there might be, uh, some self employed income in there that needs to be, needs to be factored in for sure.

Tony Umholtz: Thing that, that a lender can do is if we see, and I’ve had this happen numerous times, even within your, your community, Tim is when we have pharmacists and their spouse or their partner has a business and it’s losing money. And we, we identify that and we say, well, this actually hurts your qualifications.

We can tell you that ahead of time, you know, and say, help with the guidance of. Well, you might be grossing 2000 a month cash in your pocket from that business, but you’re showing it you’re losing 500 a

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Tony Umholtz: Right? So that’s important to that’s a mistake I run into as well. So,

Tim Ulbrich: on your [00:32:00] tax return? What’s on your tax return? Yeah. Um. I want to talk about loan options and a little bit about interest rates as we work our way through the process. So we started with the pre approval, the budget. We talked about some of the common pitfalls that happen along the way as well, and certainly getting to the right quote, right loan option is an important determination.

And we’ve talked at length on previous episodes about the different. Loan options. So I don’t feel the need that we have to go through every single one of those again. And the more you and I’ve talked, Tony, the more I’m convinced that it’s, it’s less about the borrower coming and saying, Hey, this is the option that I want.

And this is the rate, you know, that I’m looking for. And it’s really about. finding that good lender relationship where that person can understand your situation and ultimately apply and recommend what is the best loan option for your personal situation, right? Because you’ve given me many examples before where someone comes to you and [00:33:00] says, Hey, I really want to apply for the pharmacist home loan.

And maybe that’s a slam dunk, but maybe they’d be a better fit because of what’s going on with rates or credit scores or other things with an FHA product. And so Talk to us about that relationship a little bit and, and, and why it’s, it’s important for the lender and the lendee ultimately to come to that determination of what, what is the best loan option for their personal situation?

Oh, geez.

Tony Umholtz: environment is. Probably one of the most critical I’ve ever seen of, cause there’s been so much change in the secondary market to where there’s opportunities where like it during COVID, I mean, there was products that like I wouldn’t deviate from, you know, you know, everyone I could get into one product because the rates were so good in that one area I tried to, but now things have changed where the secondary market, there’s opportunities that, that arise.

So. Based on credit score, debt to income ratio, [00:34:00] there’s a lot of reasons why we try to make sure we find the best product. It’s not always the pharmacist’s product. A lot of times it is, but there are times, scenarios, where there’s programs that make more sense based on that individual’s debt to income ratio, just what we covered today, credit score, that matters.

Pricing can be much better with, for example, FHA. when your credit score might be a little lower. The FHA pricing has gone through times where it’s just incredibly good, even though there’s some PMI. So I really try to make sure we’re matching that best product. And then there’s some geographical programs, depending on where a home buyer is looking that, um, You know, we’ve used to that are that are kind of unique to that area based on a load of moderate, moderate income, even, you know, depending on the track you’re buying in census track.

There’s all sorts of different programs out there and I try not to limit or be short sighted. [00:35:00] Um, so, uh, we try to look at what the best opportunity is at a given time. And, and I have done that throughout my career, no matter where, you know, whatever the timing was. Um, I’ll never forget. I’ll tell one quick story just you guys might be too young for this, but it’s, but if you ever saw that movie, the big short, you’ll remember this.

But during 2004, five and six, 2004 and five, primarily Lehman brothers had this great program. I did a lot of a paper lending. I never did the, like the subprime lending back then. And I was young, but I was the second top producer at my mortgage, the mortgage company I worked for in the country. And I worked really hard.

It was 12 hour days. I loved it. I had one part time assistant, but different times, but Lehman brothers had this great product where with a second mortgage, we could do 65 percent LTVs and get the best pricing I’d ever seen a bit, but they were using it for non [00:36:00] doc, they actually had this stated income product, which I didn’t do a lot of, but this particular program had just the best rates.

Well, I ended up being invited to this call where they were telling me how, Oh, you, you know, we really like this, what you’re doing. And basically we’ll buy like a hundred percent loans with no income verification and all this stuff. So it was, it was crazy times and sure enough, a few years

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tony Umholtz: everything blew up.

But my point is this, we found that the best pricing was through that product and we utilized it. Right. So, and it helped a lot of, of our clients and I. Nowadays, there’s nothing like that out there. It’s basically pretty vanilla. You have, you know, um, you know, several different options, but we always try to find it the best option for that individual, but, um, I’ll never forget being on that call and having that pit in my stomach being like 27 years old, thinking it doesn’t sound right, you know, it, this doesn’t sound right.

And then a few years later, it all went

Tim Ulbrich: Here’s why it didn’t sound right. Yeah. [00:37:00] Yeah. I think there’s just a lot to think about here that can be so overwhelming for a first time homebuyer if they’re just Google searching, right? It’s, you know, they’re looking at, uh, different rates, fixed rates, uh, variable rates, adjustable rate, mortgage products are out there.

They’re looking at different terms that are out there. They’re looking about options that have points or don’t have points or reading about different loan types. And, you know, should I do a 30, a 20, a 15, and how much is it going to take for a down payment? And to me, this is where some of the internet searching, and I learned this the hard way one time where.

You know, you’re excited about buying a home, you put in your information, and all of a sudden the phone starts ringing 24 7, right? And, the problem with that is, it’s not only is it annoying, but it’s narrowing you down a pathway too early that may or may not even be the pathway that you want to be on.

And I always go back to, Can there, can there be a lender relationship and can you [00:38:00] pick up the phone and call someone, have a conversation about your situation? Hey, I’m looking in this area. This is about what we’re thinking, you know, budget wise. And then based on the products, based on all those factors coming together, what is the best product, you know, that that’s available in that moment for their situation and for the rates that are available.

So I’m going to keep beating that drum Tony, because I think it’s so important that. Someone might go in and we’ll talk here in just a minute about the pharmacist home loan product. And, and, you know, hopefully that’s a good fit. Um, but for some people that might go into that and say, Hey. That is a good option, but maybe there’s a better option, you know, that’s, that’s available as well.

Let’s talk about the pharma Go ahead.

Tony Umholtz: Oh, you’re exactly right. Cause you know, credit scores, the mark, the market, all of that applies. And we always want to evaluate what’s best at this current time. And one other thing I’ll mention too, is it’s really one of the safest times that I’ve ever seen as far as lending goes to, to buy because the regulatory environment [00:39:00] is very consumer friendly.

Um, there’s, there’s not a lot of, I mean, the, the rules are in place to, to prevent defaults. Right. And it is overwhelming to some degree, but also there’s no more prepayment penalties. There used to be prepayment penalties on lots of these loan products 20

Tim Ulbrich: to believe. Hard to

Tony Umholtz: Yeah. I mean, it was like everything had you to watch your prepay period and all this, that’s all gone.

I mean, so if rates start dipping, which. It could happen. Um, if we see inflation continue to fall, you’re, you could refinance in six months, eight months, whenever it made sense financially. Right. I mean, so it’s a very liquid time as long as you qualify. I think it’s, there’s a lot of, um, you know, from a financing side, it’s probably never been safer.

It’s, you just have to go in. Understanding that, you know, owning a property is not renting, right? You own it and you’ve got to take care of it. It’s your asset.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. When we talk about the different products, let’s finish this section by talking about the Pharmacist home loan [00:40:00] product, as I suspect many are interested. We’ve mentioned it a few times now. Tell us about The ins and outs in terms of why that product is unique. Minimum credit scores, maximum loan amounts.

So our listeners can get a feel of whether or not that may be an option, uh, that they want to look into. Um,

Tony Umholtz: is 700, but there is some pricing adjustments if you’re under seven 40. So that’s why one of the things we do, we will look at some conventional products. If your credit score is 701, for example, right? Cause, cause that, that it’s more sensitive rate wise when you get under 740.

So that’s the minimum of 700. Um, as far as like the down payments, down payments are 3 percent down if you’re a first time buyer. Okay. So only 3 percent down, no PMI. If you’ve owned before, it’s 5 percent down. Okay. 5 percent down again, no PMI. The maximum loan amount typically matches [00:41:00] the conventional loan limits for that area.

So most areas right now are about 806, 550. There are some higher cost areas, you know, that are, that are higher than that. Certain counties, especially around Washington, DC, California, um, higher cost areas, New York, uh, but for the most part around that 806, 550 is the loan amount max. So lesser down payment, still pretty high loan amount.

You know, it’s pretty viable. Um, no prepayment penalties, like I mentioned, there aren’t really a lot of reserve requirements either, so you don’t have to have a lot of, you know, of, uh, cash in the bank, so to speak, uh, in reserves. And then the seller is able to pay some of the closing costs as well, uh, which is helpful sometimes, you know, especially as there’s more inventory guys, sellers will be more willing to negotiate.

That is one of the benefits of inventory. So the more inventory grows, the more opportunity there is for buyers, they get a little bit [00:42:00] more leverage than they used to have. So, um, the ability to have closing costs paid by the seller, something that could be negotiated in, and this program allows that as well.

Tim Ulbrich: and available in the lower 48. One of the reasons that we’ve, we’ve

Tony Umholtz: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: on, you know, you’ll find, you’ll find some regional products or state specific products, but, uh, any pharmacist listening that that’s a living in the lower 48, this is an option and we’ll link to this in the show notes. But if you go to yourfinancepharmacist.

com forward slash home dash loan. You’ll find all the information Tony just mentioned as well. Some other resources, uh, for, for those that are looking to purchase a home. Tony, I’m glad you mentioned the reserves as well, because when I think back to my journey of being a first time home buyer, or for that matter, even buying our second home, that’s a place where a lot of people can get stuck, right?

Which is, Hey, we’re, we’re working hard to come up with a down payment. Um, and now we got to have a certain amount that’s in reserves as well. And liquidity we know is just a difficult thing for a lot of [00:43:00] pharmacists that are in the first five or 10 years of their career. Um, just given that there’s other demands on, on income, they’re paying off student loan debt, they’re working towards other goals.

So that minimal reserve requirement can be an important aspect that I think we probably don’t talk enough about, uh, when, when you and I talk about the pharmacist home loan product. So thank you for the reminder on that one there. Let’s wrap up by talking about what really happens behind the scenes from hey, I’ve got my pre approval, I go out, I find the home, I’m working with the realtor, I make an offer, we’re under contract, walk us through what’s happening behind the scenes from I’m under contract, yeah.

Ultimately to closing, because I think this is, it feels probably for a lot of people, like a black box of all these things that are happening. You guys, I know are working really hard. People want to close on time. They want the process to move forward without bumps. Spoiler alert. It’s probably going to have some bumps along the way.

That’s just part of the process that, that happens, but [00:44:00] what happens behind the scene from, Hey, we’ve got an offer. We’re under contract all the way to we’re signing out of documents and we’re getting the keys.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah. Great questions, right? There’s a lot that goes on behind the scenes and everyone’s situations different. You know, it’s it’s really amazing how many different things can happen. But, um, so, so once you go to contract, once you’ve gotten your pre approval, you’ve gone to contract on a home. Yes, have, you know, part of the battle’s done, but there’s still a lot more left before you close.

And so most contracts have a timeline, right? Of let’s say it’s a 30 day contract. Okay. There’s typically a commitment letter deadline. So that’s when your financing contingency is, is up, so to speak. So what that means is like any earnest money you gave, let’s say you gave 5, 000 to secure the contract contract.

That money is basically non refundable if you get denied for [00:45:00] financing after the commitment letter deadline. So it’s very important you have a lender that can meet that deadline to minimize that risk. So that’s the first thing we look at, like, when is that deadline? When’s the appraisal contingency? And we work on those contingency basis.

I’m very fortunate here, and I’ve worked at two other lenders in my career. I’ve been at this bank now for over, a little over seven years now, I think. Yeah, over a little over seven and we have probably one of the best operational systems I’ve been a part of and And basically having my own team, it’s made it a lot easier for me.

And the reason I’m going to mention this is I’m going to speak to a couple of different systems of how lenders work, because I’ve worked at different systems and I’ve seen it firsthand. So the black box, so to speak, is once you go to contract, you send all your financials into the lender, everything starts, right?

Normally that loan originator will send the file to the [00:46:00] processor, the processor on my team. Um, I have two or three that work for my group will then submit the loan to the underwriter. Okay. And we have a fast track policy as well. So a lot of our products, we can have a loan commitment. If we have a full file within like 48 hours of receipt, it happens very, very fast.

And that’s one of our advantages is it is the speed that we can get that proof approval and meeting those criteria. And then from there, the appraisals ordered as well, generally takes a week or two to get that appraisal back, I find most areas a week or two, and that’ll meet that, you know, as long as that appraises, okay, then that meets the requirement.

Right. And the appraisals were reviewed to. So going back processor submits to underwriter, you get the approval. Okay. So the loan’s been approved, formally approved. There’s [00:47:00] generally conditions with that loan. So you’re going to have conditions that have to be collected from the borrower to get the final approval.

During that time, the appraisals ordered, right? Um, typically all your inspections are done with your real real estate agent, uh, ahead of time, you know, before you get this far during that time, but this is all being worked on the same time. So conditions, a lot of times it’s just how quick do they come back from the borrower generally takes a borrower.

A week or so, you know, to get it back to you, right? It’s not something that they’re going to just shoot right back to you. Some people do, but some people just take their time. Especially if our underwriting approval happened quickly, we’ll get those, those documents back. We’ll resubmit it for. you know, to get the final or formal, you know, to clear up any conditions right before closing.

And sometimes there’s more back and forth, depending on if those conditions didn’t quite fit the, the requirements. Okay. Appraisal comes back, appraisals [00:48:00] reviewed typically a week or so prior to closing. Our closer will work with the title agent or the closing attorney to get the correct paperwork for closing and the correct.

Uh, documents prepared, so they start doing it ahead of time to meet the new requirement. I say new, but several years ago, TRID became a requirement where a borrower had to acknowledge the closing statement at least three business days prior to closing. So that’s why you have to sign off on a primary home at least three days prior to closing.

And review all of review, all the, um, financials, and then you can close, you know, three business days later. So that, that is done at least a week ahead of time with the settlement agent. So meantime, most transactions go pretty smooth where, you know, there’s some complexity underwriting when you’re self employed, but [00:49:00] most clients have W2s pay steps comes in, we get it underwritten quickly and the appraisals ordered and. We work to the final loan approval closer, gets the paperwork out, then the client goes, signs on. The closing day loan is

Tim Ulbrich: Mm

Tony Umholtz: so that’s behind the scenes black box. Now there was a, there’s a, there can be some moving parts. So I worked at a larger bank prior to coming here, and there was some years I was their top producer in the country even.

And they were big. They’re very big. I’m not gonna name ’em, but they’re, they’re a bigger bank. And we used to have operations that I could somewhat control, meaning my processor, right, and my underwriter, I had a group that knew me, knew me, our system, my team, they basically centralized that,

Tim Ulbrich: Mm.

Tony Umholtz: where I lost complete control.

And it would, it would truly be, I wouldn’t know what’s going on, right? So I couldn’t update my clients. And

Tim Ulbrich: All the while they’re asking questions and yeah.

Tony Umholtz: And unfortunately, a lot of [00:50:00] banks work that way, even to this day, especially the larger ones, because it can be, they’re not as nimble to manage smaller teams like we are. So that is one thing you see out there is there’s still some of that out there where it’s call center driven.

It’s centralized. It’s hard to move quickly. It’s hard to communicate. And that’s where some of these problems can arise. And that’s why I do think it’s important to have that communication because things happen, there is things that happen, like even in the appraisal process, we had an appraiser couldn’t find comparables, they’re coming back to our team.

Those are the things that happen. They just are out of our, all of our control. There’s things with job movement. Um, people take new jobs and, you know, I’m dealing with one right now where The, the employment agreement got kicked back a few months, which that could, they still want to close early. And it’s, you know, there’s always complexity, right?

You just want to try to get answers quickly and communicate [00:51:00] quickly, but there’s a lot that goes on behind the scenes. There’s, I mean, I don’t know how much more depth you want, but I mean, there’s flood certifications that are run, right? During the process, we track, we track any inquiries on your credit to make sure you’re not borrowing other

Tim Ulbrich: Not, not a good time to be,

Tony Umholtz: Yeah. Lenders do that. We have to do that. So we track people to make sure that’s why I say don’t buy stuff while you’re going through the process, but you’re being tracked during process, making sure your credit’s not being utilized. Um, there, there’s a lot of things. There’s a survey that’s ordered.

Typically the title company will do that. But you’re getting a survey on the home, you have to get homeowner’s insurance. Um, but the lender is working through a lot of little details. We’re doing, we do fraud guard. There’s different things we do to, to ensure that there’s no fraud with any of the parties involved, uh, seller, title company, all of that.

A lot of things are screened now that they weren’t in the past, you know? So. There’s a lot that goes on, um, but [00:52:00] if you have a system, it can be done quickly. You know, if you have it, if you get the materials, I will say one more thing for the audience. The better you are at responding to the lender with the items they need quicker, the quicker the process and smoother it’ll go for you.

So whoever lender, no matter what lender you use. You choose to use if you respond quickly and you’re proactive and you get them what they need when they request it The process will go much much better for you

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I’m going to give a shout out to our audience there because I would contend that most pharmacists, maybe not all, but most pharmacists are pretty responsive and communicative in the process. And probably, not probably, I know why that for many people having that relationship would be so important for all the reasons that you mentioned.

Right. And there’s really two things that I heard there, one, you know, a team that is not Decentralized, you know, in terms of, or I guess centralized in the way that you described it, where you don’t [00:53:00] have access to them and, and kind of that black, black box becomes what we were talking about. Um, so having that access to a team where you can get that information quickly back to the client.

And then again, just that personal relationship, I think matters a lot. Call me old school, but it’s what I say on the business side all the time. We work in a local credit union here where. Whether it’s related to, you know, some of our checking accounts or a line of credit or whatever is the question, I know I can call Meredith if I have a question and maybe Meredith won’t always be the direct person that answers my question, but she can help me get in contact with whoever is and, you know, when someone knows that, hey, I can talk with Tony or I can talk with Cindy or I can talk with Aaron, like, and there’s a real person who understands my story.

Scenario all the more important when we’re talking about a highly emotional, large purchase with lots of moving pieces and parts in a very short period of time. Right. That’s a recipe for stress and I, and I think having the right people in your corner and having access to them and having good communication back [00:54:00] and forth can make this go as, as smooth as it, as it hopefully will, knowing that there might be some bumps along the way as well.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah Absolutely. I think you know, one of the things about this industry is There’s so many little details, right? Even like, how can I bump my credit score up 20 points? You know, having that ability to talk through that it’s, it’s complex. It’s not something, you know, I remember thinking one time, well, maybe AI will, we’ll take, take away our, a lot of our business.

Well, it’s funny, the AI things I sit in on, listen to, it’s all just making our business more efficient. There’s just too much complexities. Everyone’s so different. You can’t standardize it. Everyone’s got a different situation. So, um, the personal approach, I think is always going to be needed. There’s a lot of complexity in lending, a lot of things that you can’t just put in a box, but, um, there’s a system behind it.

And I do think from what, I think there’s so many more protections now. [00:55:00] For the, for the end user and the client than there ever has been. It’s really a, even though it is an intimidating process, it’s as safe as it’s ever been.

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, this is great stuff. And we covered a lot from pre approval to closing. And we have a great resource that I’ve referenced once. I’ll reference it again. We’ll link to in our show notes called five easy, five easy steps to get a home loan. Even if you don’t have 20 percent down, you can find that by going to yourfinancialpharmacist.

com forward slash home dash loan. It’s a great resource for homebuyers. In there, you’ll find some more information about the pharmacist home loan offering, recapping much of what Tony described on the show as well. And again, we’ll link to that in the show notes. So Tony, as always, really appreciate your perspective.

And thanks for taking time to come on the show.

Tony Umholtz: Thanks, Tim. Always good. Good hanging out with you, man. Thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: Appreciate it. Take care. 

 

[END]

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