YFP 367: Healing Together: Transforming Your Trauma to Triumph with Dr. Helen Sairany

Dr. Helen Sairany discusses the prevalence of burnout and trauma among pharmacists and the importance of addressing the root cause of trauma to lead to a path of healing.

Episode Summary

Discussing the intersections of trauma, resilience, and identity, Helen Sairany, a pharmacist and author, explores the impact of childhood trauma on workplace functioning. Dr. Sairany discusses the prevalence of burnout and trauma among pharmacists and the need to address the root causes to ensure the well-being of the profession. 

In this beautiful and powerful conversation, Dr. Sairany emphasizes the importance of recognizing the depth of human experience beyond labels and embracing coexistence, tracing back beliefs to their origins to overcome financial conflicts, and addressing the root causes of trauma to build healthier relationships.

About Today’s Guest

As a 7-year-old Kurdish child in Iraq, a country torn by war and conflict, Helen was spotted by a U.S. Marine deployed to her country with a grenade in her hand, who saved her life by exchanging the grenade for a bag of candy. He later escorted her family and her out of war to seek refuge in the U.S.

Because of her turbulent childhood, she was diagnosed with complex PTSD in 2013. Thus, she aspire to live in a world where the vast majority are trauma-informed, feel psychologically safe and valued for the work they put out, and return home fulfilled.

Since the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic began, Helen have been open about her dormant childhood trauma. She have been traveling worldwide to give talks on topics such as trauma-informed care, leadership, and the workforce. 

After having traveled to more than 100 countries worldwide, she developed an appreciation for the diverse mix of cultures, people, and traditions. 

Her interest in trauma stems from personal experiences of living through wars, navigating complex relationships, and continually learning what it means to be human.

Key Points from the Episode

• Healing trauma and its intersection with finances with pharmacist and author Dr. Helen Sairany. [0:00]
• Trauma, immigration, and healing with a focus on personal experiences and emotional reactions. [2:38]
• Pharmacist burnout and trauma due to workplace stress and lack of fulfillment. [8:21]
• Pharmacist burnout, trauma, and advocacy for trauma-informed care. [14:18]
• Trauma, inner child, and resilience with personal experiences and examples. [17:35]
• Identity, belonging, and career development for a pharmacist. [21:17]
• Labels, identity, and human experience. [26:03]
• Pharmacist boundaries, reimbursement, and provider status, with mentions of trauma and psychology of money. [30:38]
• Healing from childhood trauma and its impact on financial decisions. [34:33]
• Inner work, meditation, and trauma healing in the workplace. [40:57]

Episode Highlights

“I like to define trauma as an event that is too much, that is too fast, and that is too soon for your brain to comprehend. It gets stored in the body. And that’s why when you come across a trigger that is reminiscent of your past, it’s usually the gut that tells you something is not okay, because the gut is connected to the brainstem” – Dr. Helen Sairany [6:38]

“I’ve just been giving the same talk about what pharmacists in institutions are going through is equivalent to combat trauma. So if that is the case, if we are coming out of our workplace with combat-like trauma, does that mean our workplace is a combat zone?” – Dr. Helen Sairany [11:43]

“Every seven years, it’s a new you. Every seven years, every cell of your body goes through a complete rebirth.” – Dr. Helen Sairany [25:17]

“Labels separate us. And labels confuse us. And labels get us in trouble. Because the second you mess up and label, what do people do? They associate it with XYZ and they cancel you. So it is a concerning era in this country because of this whole concept of labels. And that’s probably why I have issues with labels. Because after all, why do I travel all around the world? Because I feel like we all have so much in common, and labels just never help with coexistence.” – Dr. Helen Sairany [30:09]

“The biggest boundary is that [pharmacist’s] have allowed our service to go by unrecognized. And this is not about provider status. You know, you ask a nurse, you ask a physician, they will tell you pharmacists are a provider. This is about a change in the regulatory language. This is about payment parity.” – Dr. Helen Sairany [31:57]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

• Website – https://helensairany.com/
• Certificate Training Program – https://helensairany.com/certificate-training/ 
• Trading Grenades for Candy by Dr. Helen Sairany
• The We You Don’t See by Dr. Helen Sairany
• The Myth of Normal by Gabor Mate
• Register for July 24th 12-1pm YFP/APhA Webinar: Retirement Income Planning: How Much is Enough and How to Pay Yourself In Retirement (With Live Nest Egg Calculation)
• YFP Disclaimer
• Subscribe to the YFP Newsletter
• Tim Ulbrich on LinkedIn
• YFP on Instagram
• YFP Facebook Group

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome pharmacist and two-time author Dr. Helen Sairany, to talk about how we can all heal together by transforming our trauma to triumph. During the interview we discussed how her personal experience with complex PTSD and trauma has influenced her advocacy work and trauma informed care how her travels to over 100 countries is influenced her understanding of human resilience. Her career transitions from working in Iraq as a new grad to association management to leading two state pharmacy associations and now running her own business, as well as the intersection of psychology and money and how our past traumas and belief systems play out in our spending behaviors. 

Tim Ulbrich  00:47

Before we jump into today’s episode, I invite you to learn more and register for our next YFP webinar, Retirement Income Planning: How Much is Enough and How to Pay Yourself in Retirement. Saving for retirement and ensuring there’s enough to retire comfortably is a good starting point. But it’s important to then consider how a monthly paycheck will be generated during retirement to replace your pharmacist income. During this free YFP webinar, co-founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker will walk through strategies to build a retirement paycheck, including doing a live nest egg calculation, discussing savings vehicle strategies for withdrawal tax integrations, and how to consider and evaluate Social Security benefits. Make sure to attend live for a chance to win an amazon gift card. If you can’t make it live. No problem, make sure to register and we’ll send you a copy of the replay afterwards. You can learn more and register at yourfinancia pharmacist.com/retirement. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/retirement. Alright, let’s jump into my interview with Dr. Helen Sairany. 

Tim Ulbrich  01:48

Hello, and welcome to the show.

Dr. Helen Sairany  01:50

Thank you so much for having me, Tim. I’m looking forward to having a discussion with you today. 

Tim Ulbrich  01:54

Me too. This has been awhile in the making. You and I have known each other for a while now at least a decade, I think. We crossed paths when you at the time you were working with American Pharmacists Association, we’ll talk more about your career journey as we get into the recording. And more recently, I feel like we’ve connected on our own healing journeys and some of the work that we’ve been doing individually. I have a ton of respect for the work that you have done, we’ll talk about the books that you’ve written on this important topic of trauma. And I think for our listeners, there’ll be a real treat and perhaps a different angle and topic than there used to as we dig into the finances normally, so thank you so much for taking time to join.

Dr. Helen Sairany  02:36

Thank you for having me.

Tim Ulbrich  02:37

I want to start with your first book, Trading Grenades for Candy, one that I enjoyed. I remember reading it on vacation, I was at the Fingerlakes with my family, I couldn’t put it down. True story. I already told Helen that; I’m not making it up for the show. And in that book, you share how as a seven year old Kurdish child in Iraq, you responded by a US Marine with a grenade in your hand who saved your life by exchanging the grenade for a bag of candy. And I want to start there if you could tell us more about this early experience and how growing up in a violent background, in a war torn country led to your own trauma, which would eventually become the basis for helping others along in their own journey. 

Dr. Helen Sairany  03:17

Yeah, so. And truth to be told, I don’t have a recollection of that story. Because my trauma was so big, and that I don’t remember. So my parents actually when I wrote my memoir, my parents told me how excited I was to rush home with that bag of candy. And I narrated the story to them then when I was seven, but I just don’t remember that it happened. But the book, it’s the title is Trading Grenades for Candy, but it’s more of a metaphor, how I gave up my life in an austere environment for the American dream and I and I’m sure you’ve kind of picked on this as I was narrating my story, how I was trying as a you know, younger woman, single, you know, professional with all these degrees trying to go back to the Middle East after all these years of living in the States and how I was resented because I was one of the very few lucky ones who had the opportunity to leave the Middle East while everybody else was stuck in the war zone. So Trading Grenades for candy is trading my life for the American dream more. But it did start with that exchange between me and the marine. And yes, it did lead to my service and helping frontline heroes. Is it the Marines? Is it the pharmacists? Is it doctors? I feel like we all have a bit of trauma of some sort. But the book if you look at the acknowledgement the book is dedicated to the unknown marine that saved my life. And I’m hoping that through this book, I’ll be able to find him one of these days. But it is it is a true story. It revolves around my life around immigration settlement, displacement discrimination and how I was resented at the end after returning to my roots.

Tim Ulbrich  05:03

Since we’re going to talk a lot about trauma, if you could define that for us, you know, I recently read per your recommendation, Dr. Gabor Mate’s book The Myth of Normal, fantastic read, we’ll link to that in the show notes. I think half my reading list by the way, right now I have a stack of books in my office, I think those are recommendations from from you. So that one, he talks in that book about little T trauma, big T trauma. And just the way he taught that, and really, I think helped me normalize in my own healing journey, what that word even means, and perhaps the misconceptions I had around trauma is important. But since we’re gonna talk so much about that, let’s define that for a moment. How do you define trauma?

Dr. Helen Sairany  05:43

So I don’t like to, I don’t like the whole concept of big T, little t, because, and because the human, the depth of human experience cannot be limited to a letter, okay? Your little T might be a big T, for me, my big T might be a little T, while the society try to impose this whole concept of we’re all created equal. But let’s face it, some of us are more equal than others. And by that, I mean some of us are more resilient than others. And if you look at the study that was done by JAMA, looking at the veterans who get deployed to combat, those 20% of veterans who come back to get clinically diagnosed with PTSD are the ones with pre existing traumatic childhood experiences. So that is probably why I have a little bit of a concern with the big T and the little T category for trauma. So what I like to define trauma as as it’s an event that is too much, that is too fast, and that is too soon for your brain to comprehend. And that’s why trauma is never about the brain challenges, while the mental health community likes to focus on mental health being as a separate brain being a separate compartment than the body. Trauma, because it’s too much too fast, too soon, it gets stored in the body, it gets stored in the body. And that’s why when when you come across a trigger that is reminiscent of your past, it’s usually the gut, that tells you something is not okay, because the gut is connected to the brainstem. And brainstem, or the reptilian brain is responsible for your survival. So again, traumas it’s about something that happened inside of you because of what happened to you. But it’s also about a disease that being stored in your body as a response to an event that was too much, too fast, too soon. 

Tim Ulbrich  07:31

One of the indicators I have found in my own journey is when I find myself having a disproportionate, not sure if this is a technical term, but a disproportionate emotional reaction to a situation where I can step back and look at it and say, Oh, wow, that was interesting. Like, this happened and I got really angry, right, or I became really sad, or I was really fearful or feelings of shame, or guilt, or whatever is the emotion. And when I see that, wow, that event doesn’t really correspond to the level of feeling that I was having. Just being aware of that I start to get curious about like, Oh, that’s interesting. What’s what’s going on there? Like, what is the trigger? You know, what’s the event? And I think for me, and I’d love for you to speak about this in your own journey with others. Just that openness to curiosity, without judgment feels to be a really important first step. 

Dr. Helen Sairany  08:21

I wished him and I’m so glad you brought this up. I wish as a profession, as in the whole healthcare healthcare field as a whole would take that curiousity approach, because it is no coincidence that one out of every two American is reporting either anxiety or depression. It is no coincidence that 60% of Americans are reporting at least one chronic disease. So now you can you can blame genetics all you want. But that is a hard case for me to roll with because genetics cannot alter at such a fast pace. So the typical North American provider reaction is well, what are we going to do? Well as a health care provider if the same patient and that’s what led to the whole famous Adverse Childhood Experiences Study by Drs. Anda and Felitti. They kept seeing patient with morbid obesity, one patient after the other and the same different patient would report the same exact adversity from childhood and that is what led to the birth of adverse childhood experiences study that perhaps obesity is not about the food, but it’s more a reaction and reaction to early adversity from childhood. So that’s the curiousity that I you and I are talking about. Let’s take a step back and figure out the how did we get here? Because the profession is not okay. Healthcare is not okay. I mean, I don’t like to focus just on pharmacists. I was recently on a sabbatical and I ran across a half a dozen nurses from the US and some of them were saying that they wake up to the beats of the sound of the IV unit from the ICU, and that is an iconic symptom of PTSD. So that curiosity, I think it’s overdue. And I think because of the scary statistics, I don’t think we are in a situation where we can have a reactionary response anymore. I think we have no choice but to take a step back and figure out how did we get here? What is an issue in the system that is causing so much disease and so much dysfunction among all of us?

Tim Ulbrich  10:21

And I’m curious as you speak to groups all across the country groups of pharmacists, groups of other other health care professionals, but for our audience, as we think of pharmacists that are listening, I’m not sure they would associate, you know, the word trauma with their experience in the healthcare system or their role. What ype of responses are you getting from pharmacists, what types of thoughts or feelings or reactions are coming up? And where’s that stemming from?

Dr. Helen Sairany  10:48

So I wrote an article for Pharmacy Times 2021, three years ago and I talked about we were still like in Omicron era. And I talked about how, what what pharmacists are going through is equivalent to what a combat veteran would go through. Okay, so pharmacists are experienced combat like trauma, excuse me, and the article just went viral. I wasn’t expecting for anybody to kind of associate combat trauma to burnout. I just randomly wrote the articles, you know, me, I’m passionate about trauma. And the article went viral. And so many pharmacists wrote me and they said, This is what I was feeling this whole time. But I just didn’t know how to categorize it. Do you know what I mean? And they thanked me for it. And as you’re aware, I’ve gone to 26, 27 states and I gave one keynote, and my keynote went viral. And I just been giving the same talk about how what institutions, or what pharmacists in institutions are going through is equivalent to combat trauma. So if that is the case, if that is the case, if we are coming out of our workplace with combat-like trauma, does that mean our workplace is a combat zone? And that is a question that I addressed the audience because individuals who go to combat veterans who go to combat they come back with PTSD. But if we are ending up with combat like trauma from our workplace, that means our workplace is not healthy, if that makes sense.

Tim Ulbrich  12:19

Yeah. And when you talked about the example of nurses you interacted with when you were on sabbatical and that one example of, you know, hearing the the beat of the IV, like what are their similar examples and trends or similarities you’re hearing among pharmacists? And Is it in community practice? Is it in hospital practice? Is it across the board, but what what are some of those experiences that pharmacists are having as a result of this traumatic workforce is traumatic experience. 

Dr. Helen Sairany  12:49

And I know you and I kind of talked about this, in our earlier conversations, it’s, I like, as much as I hate to, and I’m not trying to belittle workplaces. But I think the number one concern for pharmacists is the lack of fulfillment. The lack of fulfillment, I can only talk on my behalf. I went through pharmacy school, I got a doctoral degree. And for four years I’ve been I was told I’m a provider, I’m a provider. And I was taking all these amazing therapeutic courses, and I was so excited. And then as soon as I was out of pharmacy school, I got hit. And I was not a provider. And now we have a provider status bill, that I cannot get reimbursed for my services. And I cannot use 90% of the clinical therapeutics that I was, you know, I was taught. So now what do I deal with? And I’m not saying that I was misled, and I’m not going to say that I was lied to. But it is it is a shock. Going back to too much, too fast, too soon. Too much you are actually put. And that is what the examples I hear from pharmacists, they feel like after pharmacy school, they’re being put in a heavy traffic during rush hour. And they’re told to guide the traffic with no prior experience. Now, that is not traumatic. I don’t know what it is. It is too much. And they’re trying to kind of figure out and then the clock is ticking with the workload. So I would say this is the example that I’ve been hearing the lack of fulfillment and also the they’re not doing something that they were told they were.

Tim Ulbrich  14:17

I think that lack of fulfillment and the misaligned expectations. You know, I think for those that have been working for a period of time and have experienced any of that, there’s a there’s a mental exhaustion. We talked about burnout, we use different words for this. But over a long enough period of time, I think we can really underestimate the impact that it can have. And certainly, I think the human can be very resilient to short term stress, and that’s to be expected on some level regardless of workplace. But what I hear from pharmacists, is that misaligned expectations, yes, that lack of ability to do the work that they thought they were going to do to have the impact that they thought they were going to have obviously we talked about the financial will impact and, you know, feeling like they’re tied to that setting whether it’s a good fit or not because of their debt, because of other things. But you layer that on in the example, given of the feeling of like, you’re in the middle of rush hour traffic, and you’re expected to guide this traffic over a 12 hour shift, and another 12 hour shift and another 12 hour shift over many, many years. I mean, you can start to appreciate the level of impact that would be there. Helen, you have been open and sharing your own journey with complex PTSD that you were diagnosed with in 2013. And I’m curious to hear how that personal experience with trauma has influenced your advocacy and your work towards trauma informed care. 

Dr. Helen Sairany  15:43

I’ve had PTSD all my life, but I just didn’t know that it was PTSD. Just like how pharmacists were telling me in that article, like they knew was trauma, then it was too much, too fast, too soon, but they didn’t know how to kind of point fingers at it. So it wasn’t until I was back from overseas and the unfortunate encounter, because I was treating little girls with PTSD when I was part of Doctors Without Borders. And that is when my inner child started going out of control. And I would wake up sweating with nightmares. And so that’s when I realized that something was not okay. So I was diagnosed, but unfortunately, the diagnosis and the way it’s been handled, and I’ve been very critical about it. It’s, it’s, it turns into a victim to a label, if that makes sense. And I was I carried a lot of stigma, I carried a lot of shame, a lot of shame back in 2013. And I didn’t go public about my, my symptoms until COVID-19. And COVID-19, as much as I hate what happened, it was more of a like awakening for me that I need to because I wasn’t able to travel, you know, I’m a world traveler. So my travel got canceled, and we were all stuck at home. So that is when I realized that I could do something good about this. So I wrote my first book, Trading Grenades for Candy. Trading Grenades for Candy is what led people to ask for more because I don’t deep dive into the mental health aspect of my traumatic past. So I would say it was my memoir that led me to do all this great work. And as I started deep diving into trauma, Tim, I realized that it’s very relevant for what the healthcare is going through. It’s too much, it’s too fast, too soon. And I And I’m, I’m quick, like I started relating to what physicians are going through, what pharmacists are going through, what nurses are going through. It’s it’s not limited to war. 

Tim Ulbrich  17:35

And I think just that reframe, you know, the, the acceptance of that, and understanding the definition of trauma. And I know, we talked about whether little T and big T is appropriate, but I Speaking for myself, you know, often when I think back to my childhood, and and just the admiration, respect and love that I have for my parents and the experiences, you know, I kind of put a wall up to like, well, there was no trauma, I didn’t experience any of the big T. Right, the things that I think about I have the understanding by, but and so I think that that can sometimes cloud our understanding awareness of you know, if we can humble ourselves for a minute, even as I think about raising my own four boys, like they have experienced trauma, like in my household that has happened, not big T trauma, but there is, you know, traumatic experience that happened in any household that are going to have an impact on them as they think about long term.

Dr. Helen Sairany  18:25

 Exactly. 

Tim Ulbrich  18:26

You said inner child, I think that’s a term that I know has been important to me in my own journey, as I’ve worked with a men’s group and gone through some counseling as well. Can you define that for those that aren’t familiar with that term? 

Dr. Helen Sairany  18:40

Inner child is basically it’s the child that that gets suspended inside of you. And, for example, my mother was emotionally distance. So I didn’t grow up with Barbies, and toys and like a typical American child, right. Not because they didn’t want me to because we were in a war zone, right? When you’re about to be bombed, you know, like survival is the number one priority, but that child has healthy narcissistic needs. So we’re not talking about the narcissism such as the narcissistic boss or the ex. We’re talking about a child feeling like needing the unconditional love being inconvenient, regardless of how sleepy or how tired you are, they want to play, they want that attention. That is the healthy narcissistic need. But if you are distracted, or if you’re burnt out, or if you’re stressed, you’re not going to be able to give that child what the child needs. So what happens the child is gonna have a tough decision to make, am I gonna force my authenticity, my need from my parents for the attachment or am I gonna split from my authentic need? Chances are because they put you on a pedestal because my parents are never wrong. They are going to start what’s called splitting. They’re going to suspend that inner child need, the healthy narcissistic need, but whatever is not met, it gets suspended, which means they take their unmet needs to their adult life and their unmet needs becomes the boss’s need, it becomes the partner’s need, it becomes whatever. So kudos to those who kind of know that term, who know where this inner child need comes from, but a lot of people, and let’s they let their inner child bleed all over them, and they’re not aware of it. 

Tim Ulbrich  20:17

That’s a beautiful, succinct explanation. Thank you, I have a guy in my men’s group, Greg, who does a lot of this area of work and talks a lot about the inner child. And he does a beautiful job of naming little Greg, and the work that he has to do to spend time with little Greg and nurture little Greg and, you know, reinvigorate some of those experiences and things that were missing. And it’s just beautiful to watch, kind of that journey and understanding of the inner child, and the impact that I can have. You mentioned travel a couple times on the podcast, you’ve traveled over 100 countries, which is incredible. I feel like every time I see what you’re up to on LinkedIn, you’re in a new country, doing new and different things. How have these experiences, enriched your experience of human resilience, and even the work that you’re doing around trauma informed care?

Dr. Helen Sairany  21:10

You know, it’s, it’s, it shows how we humans have so much in common, my goodness, so much in common. And I grew up, and I know you’ve read my memoir, and I grew up struggling with belonging. I was always a refugee girl in the states who spoke with an accent with thick brows, curly hair, she’s different, right? And then, and I knew I knew it was different. I knew I didn’t belong in the States. I knew I was a foreigner. But the reality hits was when I decided to go back and serve with Doctors Without Borders. And when I got the resentment from my own people, they’re like, well, you’re the American wannabe. So I felt like I was the foreigner in the States. And now I was the American wannabe in my own mother country. So it became very difficult. And I was going through an identity crisis in my late 20s. And only then, my therapist was like, well says, Who that you have to decide between either or you’re just a world citizen, right? So I will say, my lack of belonging, whenever I feel that pain, that I don’t belong anywhere, I feel like I belong everywhere. And I’m not trying to be my angel here. But it really is true. Because this lack of fulfillment, it just made me want to belong everywhere. And I just love every time I am stressed, or I’m depressed, or I’m having difficulties, I, I just go implant somewhere and I come back completely refreshed. 

Tim Ulbrich  22:30

You know, when I think of your career journey, Helen, it’s an interesting non traditional out of my mature, that’s the best term. You’ve talked about your experience shortly after graduating Doctors Without Borders. You spent several years with American Pharmacists Association, doing some incredible work there where our paths crossed. You then would go on to lead a couple of state pharmacy associations. Now you’re doing the work that we’re talking to me here on this episode, and, and you know, dabbling into the world of entrepreneurship, and all the exciting things that are there. One of the things I see pharmacists really struggle with is the attachment to their identity as their role of being a pharmacist. And when different opportunities might open up that are, quote, non traditional. I remember feeling this when I came out of residency, and I quickly exited practice and was exploring different things that I could do, I had this little voice in the back of my head that was like, Well, Tim, didn’t you train for eight years, and take on all this debt and go through residency, like you’re a clinic, you should be a clinician, and I remember thinking like, I don’t really like clinical practice, like, it’s just not for me, and it took some time to really accept that, and really see where I can have an impact and aligned with my skills in other areas. And so my question for you is, you think about your journey, your identity, as a pharmacist, your role as a pharmacist? How have you worked through that? Has that been a challenge as you’ve gone through this own journey, and you’re now doing work, obviously, in trauma and helping other healthcare professionals?

Dr. Helen Sairany  24:02

So I knew I knew when I was a student intern, that I was more than what was allowed of me. And the disappointment started early on. And that I believe, that’s probably why I packed my stuff and I joined Doctors Without Borders. So the whole, you know, we talked about the whole concept. Well, I felt like maybe I was misled. Or maybe I was not being told, I think that I’ve really quickly enough not been in growing up in a traumatic environment, I tend to be a bit quicker than an average person. Because of the risk I was surrounded by, I had no choice but to be quick in connecting dots. So I would say I am I’m a bit faster than an average individual because of my unfortunate circumstances. So I was quick in picking up that if I take this path, I know Helen is not going to thrive. So so that’s probably why I decided to take you know, this non-traditional pathway. But I would never, ever associate my identity with my profession. And I know that’s not your typical response you hear. But I would like to emphasize one thing, Tim, and that is something I will say 99% of pharmacists don’t know. And it just came up yesterday, as I was talking to a mentor of mine. Every seven years, it’s a new you. Every seven years, every cell of your body goes through a completely rebirth. So that’s exactly what happened to me with APHA after seven years. That is when it hits because I felt like I was going up, up, up, and I was doing all these amazing things. And then I reached the status quo. And I talked to a lot of people, it’s usually the seventh year that hits them, because the body goes through a complete reform. So it’s not about feeling guilty. It’s not about abandoning the profession. This is how we’re built as a human, if that makes sense. Some people are more open to it, while other people because of the societal conditioning, the professional conditioning, they decide to just stay where they are just because this is something they feel like that they signed up for.

Tim Ulbrich  26:03

Yeah, that’s the piece I see a lot, Helen, what you just mentioned there, you know, the openness to it, or lack there of you know, I see this on the financial side, where there’s, you know, a very real sunk cost concept where I put x amount into our my, maybe my family helped, my parents help whoever into paying for this college degree. You know, I remember when I graduated 2008, the story was very strong saidand unsaid of like, you will be a doctor, you will practice at the top of your license, right, all the things that you shared early on. And I think there’s a real risk of the enmeshment that can happen between your individual identity, which is independent of your role as a pharmacist. But very quickly, I think when we when we take ourselves back to 18, 19, 20 year old Tim going through pharmacy school, like those things start to become enmeshed. But if we’re not careful, I think some of that may or may not separate back out and, and what I what I’ve run into is people that I can sense have the intuition, whether it’s seven years, eight years, 10 years, five years, whatever, but aren’t willing to pivot move or be open to what else may be out there within or outside of the profession for a variety of different reasons.

Dr. Helen Sairany  27:15

No I hear you, and that is the whole concept of the codependent society, which is something I’m sure you came across in my second book is enmeshment, right? Like I am, I will feel good if XYZ feels good about me. And it’s if you look at our academic system, and I know you’ve written about this as well, they turn our identity to a letter. And if the letter is F, I feel like a failure. If the letter is A I feel, but and I know the whole concept of Maria Montessori, she challenges the whole Western academic system, because it’s all about play. And this whole concept of ADHD which we can go on and on. And Dr. Gabor actually challenges is the child fighting ADHD or is the child fighting this dry, you know, classroom setting, because kids are meant to play. They’re meant to be be playful. And that’s what Dr. Maria Montessori focuses on. But you’re expecting the child to sit on their butt like this for eight hours, of course, they’re going to be diagnosed with ADHD. So it just it’s time for us to revisit some of these concepts and some of these associations, you know, but until then, people are going to continue associating themselves with these labels.

Tim Ulbrich  28:28

Yeah. And I think the labels, you know, as a parent of four young boys, right, that’s a concern that I have is, you know, how do those labels get imprinted early? Where did those stories come from? And, you know, my wife and I have been talking a lot recently, and one of our boys in particular, where we caught ourselves recently, yeah, recognizing that, hey, we’ve kind of told ourselves and each other a story about why he essentially did something. And he was trying out for a sport. And it was something we both looked at, we’re like, oh, we’re surprised, like he’s self initiated. And we’re glad we kind of gave him the space to do it. But we caught ourselves in the moment of like, wait a minute, like, why are we both saying we’re surprised by this, and then that led to a conversation of, hey, we’ve kind of both told ourselves the story of who he is and what he should be doing. While he’s very clearly trying to tell us, like, that’s not his story, you know, that’s not what he thinks. And so it’s just, it’s really interesting to watch and observe that and even to see my boys in their, their creative habitat environment is, you know, to be outside, to figure it out, to be creative, you know, to work through the messiness, and I think so much to be learned there, which we can’t necessarily measure and say that’s an A, B, or C. 

Dr. Helen Sairany 29:36

To add to that, to add to that, and that’s probably why I’ve been a little critical, I can say this because I’m a member of minority okay, so this has nothing to do with Tim, for disclosure. I’ve been little critical of the DEI because it just, I’m gonna keep emphasizing, is it trauma is a diversity is it equity, is it inclusion, whatever it is, it’s about the depth of human experience. The second you associated with label big T, little T, micro-aggression, macro-aggression, like all these labels going around. That’s when you confuse me. You confuse me. And labels separate us. And labels confuse us. And labels get us in trouble. Because the second you mess up and label what do people do they associate it with XYZ and they cancel you. So it is a concerning era in this country because of this whole concept of labels. And that’s probably why I have issues with labels, you know? Because after all, why do I travel all around the world? Because I feel like we all have so much in common, and labels just never help, if that makes sense with coexistence. 

Tim Ulbrich  30:37

Beautiful. That’s great. I want to talk for a moment about a topic we could do a whole separate episode on, which is boundaries and setting boundaries, something that I don’t think we as pharmacists are inherently comfortable with. I recognize I’m generalizing that when I say that I remember reading Dr. Henry clouds book on boundaries several years ago, it was just very eye opening of Whoa, like, I’m not very good at setting boundaries. And, you know, that could be boundaries with ourselves that could be boundaries your loved ones, boundaries with the co workers. But what are you seeing in terms of pharmacists lack thereof of boundaries? And why setting boundaries is so important?

Dr. Helen Sairany  31:15

I mean, I think so that’s something you could relate to Tim more than I do, it’s asking for reimbursement is the biggest, it’s the biggest boundary. Find me a provider, that’s going to do MTM for 40 minutes for free. I mean, that is that that has been our biggest, you know, I don’t want to call it an enemy, but it’s backlashing. It’s backlashing. And the expectation is, and I know you and I kind of talked about this expectation as well, if I don’t get reimbursed for my services, when a colleague of mine who has a specialty, a consulting service, that becomes an expectation that I shouldn’t pay, either. It’s more of like re-enacting or trauma, if that makes sense. So I would say the biggest boundary is basically we’ve allowed our service to go by and recognized. And this is not about provider status. You know, you ask a nurse, you ask a physician, they will tell you pharmacists are provider. This is about a change in the regulatory language. This is about payment parity. So I’d like to, you know, and I’ve challenged APHA, I’ve challenged Tom Milligan, myself, you know, provider status has put a lot of insecurity in all of us, because we all thought we were providers, and now there is a bill. So put insecurity in in us all, and there’s so no payment parodies, it’s the payment parody that we need. So going back to the whole boundary concept, I would say that’s the biggest in the profession, at least.

Tim Ulbrich 31:17

Yeah. And it goes back to unrecognized value goes back to that feeling like I was trained to do something more and have a bigger contribution, but I have limits. And I remember, you know, I graduate in 2008. And you know, when you think about what was supposed to be big news with 2006, Medicare Part D MTM? I remember the rollout of Medicaid, MTM inOhio 2009-2010. Huge, huge opportunity. I remember the early pushes for provider status. I know some that are listening are said Yeah, we talked about this back with pharmaceutical care, and I get it. But I feel like the closest we probably were and even then it felt like we’re dancing around. Like, are we tactically doing this the right way? And are we asking for too much? And, you know, do we need another pilot study to validate this? Yada yada yada? So it’s a really interesting take on on boundaries and even some trauma related to that within our own profession? And the cumulative head trash that has probably come from you know, you’re absolutely right. When we insert this language of, we need to achieve provider status, despite others already other health care professionals thinking of us in that way. It almost sets the expectation back on ourselves of oh, well, I’m not a provider yet. I need to advocate for that and fight for that. Yeah,

Dr. Helen Sairany 32:37

I mean, I have so many physician friends are like what are you talking about? You are a provider. Like try like Helen, you’re okay, you’re okay. 

Tim Ulbrich  34:00

You’re like, but we don’t get paid! I want to shift gears and talk about the psychology of money, I think related to the conversation, certainly one of interest from our audience you shared with me a couple weeks ago, I think you’re taking a course and some training through some some business coaching classes that you’re doing, but I do relate to the psychology of money, how fascinating it is for how our past traumas and belief systems play out in our spending habits in our financial behaviors. Tell us more about what you’re learning there. 

Dr. Helen Sairany 34:34

Time and time again I hear money is the number one stressor for couples, in-laws are the number one stressors for couples. Communication is the number one stressor for couples and the number three reasons for successful relationships. We’re all bad, right? It’s all symptoms. All that you hear is symptoms of childhood baggage. What baggage what belief system do you bring into the relationship? Okay, now for someone like me, I grew up grew up in an environment that was defined by scarcity, defined by scarcity and my, my family when I visit them, I’ve gotten out and about explored the world, I’ve kind of invested in myself. So I feel like I’ve kind of opened up a bit. But when I go back, I still see the scarcity, that money’s gonna run out that, you know, resources are gonna run out. And because that’s how we grew up, we grew up in an economic sanction. You know, we grew up in an economic sanction and what is not being addressed, just like the inner child, it, you bring it to your adult relationships, adult life. And it’s not the money that triggers conflict, it’s more that money is being as a symptom. It’s a symptom of a belief that you’ve inherited from them from the environment that your family exposed you to, they expose you to. So my thing my take is that, whatever it is, it’s time for you to reflect going back to the curiosity that you started the podcast with, what is making you feel that you don’t want to spend XYZ? And it’s always catching the triggers? Like what is the trigger coming from? Why are you feeling the way you’re feeling? And I feel like that has helped me because I journaled a lot and I write down and I tried to trace it back to the scarcity environment that I was exposed to. So money is a belief system. But the belief system, it’s rooted back to your childhood upbringing, I would say.

Tim Ulbrich  36:26

And this is a huge gap in the financial planning process. And a shout out to our team that I think really does a nice job of trying to dig a little bit deeper here, because any financial decision we’re we’re making, right, the X’s and O’s when it comes to investing, or debt management or whatever. All of those are important. But underneath it, there lies this story, a narrative of how we view money in our beliefs around some of the money. Psychologists call this the money scripts or the money classrooms that we grew up in. And you see this a lot with partners or spouses, where back to my earlier example of a disproportionate emotional reaction. Like, if you find yourself in that, and are able to get curious and reflect back of like, wow, my partner, my spouse just made a $10 purchase, $30, it doesn’t matter what the number was. And it really felt much, much bigger or evoked feelings of scarcity or anger, like what’s behind that. And the more curious you can get individually, and then collectively together, of course, for those that are in a relationship doing this together, you know, I think the more fruit you’re gonna see in the outcome of that, but it’s hard because if we’re if we’re not doing the work to really surface some of those things, we’re going to constantly butt up against those challenges. Often. I always say take yourself back to the kitchen table growing up like what what were those comments? Or lack thereof, potentially, as well.

Dr. Helen Sairany  37:47

And that is something that Dr. Gabor Mati talks about, like, yes, your partner spent $10 In my trigger you, but you carry the ammunition? Yes. Did the trigger warranted that ammunition that big bombs, right, and where is that coming from?

Tim Ulbrich  38:03

Yes.

Dr. Helen Sairany  38:03

Do you know what I mean? So it’s a fascinating concept he talks about in his book, but I will say everything is rooted to childhood believe in the scarcity that we all bring into any relationship. Is it work? Is it marriage? Is it whatever it is.

Tim Ulbrich  38:16

Yeah. For those that have kids under the house, there’s the double challenge of doing the work looking back to understand where your own beliefs come from. And then there’s their work realizing that you have a whole another generation, they’re developing money scripts, you know, based on, you know, whatever they’re experiencing as well. I want to talk about Helen for a minute, if you’re willing to share, what has your own healing journey looked like in terms of therapists that have been involved support groups, the inner work that you’re doing, the daily habits that you have employed that you have found to be most helpful?

Dr. Helen Sairany  38:49

So say, Helen is work in progress. Because there is no such thing as a healing for trauma. Trauma, PTSD was not added to DSM5 and I’m sure you know, this term T. PTSD was the very first promise to treating trauma and it wasn’t added to DSM5 until the 80s. So we still don’t know enough like, you know, my definition of trauma is going to disagree with Dr. Gabor Mate. Dr. Gabor Mate is going to disagree with Bessel Vander Kolk. Because we don’t know enough. We don’t know enough. Like we kind of understand how trauma works. We know there’s triggers involved. We know the inner child, we know the dysfunctionality. But I would say there is not a universal definition around the trauma. So going back to Helen, I would say I am definitely work in progress. There are days where I am good. And there are days where I am not so good. It all depends on the triggers that Helen comes across and what ammunition do I have, you know, that I carry within. There are days where the ammunition just gets out and people are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, your reaction was not warranted. And there are days where like Helen, just yes. So I would say I start off my day with no, it’s non negotiable. I started my day with meditation. Because the meditation, it doesn’t matter if you’re on a vacation, it doesn’t matter if you’re hanging out on a beach resort in Fiji, whatever your meditation, it carries on, it regulates your body’s alarm system, right. So I would highly recommend meditation for everybody first thing in the morning, because you are in an alpha state. Because if you do it middle of the day, it’s going to take 20 minutes for you to calm your brain because the waves kind of pick up right. But when you first wake up in the morning, the waves are like slowly picking up. And that is a golden opportunity for you to regulate that body’s alarm system. And as you’re aware, I’m a runner, so I run end of the day at sunsets, and I tried to read writing has been my go to. So I’m really glad I have a hobby that is been beneficial to people, but it’s equally healing for myself.

Tim Ulbrich  40:57

So I hear writing in there reading, exercising, meditation, and it sounds like you’ve got a daily rhythm.

Dr. Helen Sairany  41:03

And of course, I’m not telling advocating anybody to be vegetarian or plant based, but I’ve invested a lot in my diet. So fitness is a priority for me for sure.

Tim Ulbrich  41:16

Yeah, what I have found in in my own I’ve shared with you before, I think like the morning is sacred protected time. Partly, I think with the boys, you know, once eight o’clock hits, and the day is kind of off and running and by nature a morning person, but having the rhythms of walking and meditation and some breath work and some writing and reading really helps me set the definition for a day and I have struggled with meditation, I have found some breathwork to be more impactful. But but with both of those, I have found that even when I’m distracted in the moment, and I may not necessarily look at that 5, 10 or 15 minutes and say, Hey, I really feel like I got a lot of in that moment. It’s the trickle effect that happens throughout the day, where I find myself just getting more curious and asking questions or being aware of some of the emotional triggers or reactions that are coming up throughout the day, that I think that work really does help contribute to, you know, as the day the day goes on.

Dr. Helen Sairany  42:16

And just if I may one thing, Tim meditation can be very triggering for some people. Because it brings up a lot of thoughts, right? There are days where I’m just like, I’m just like a hot mess because of meditation. But again, that is called the grief work that you’ve never taken a chance. Our society celebrates instant gratification. Well, if this relationship did not work, the only way you can get over him is to find someone else, you know, but no, the only way to get over it is to do the grief work, you know. So meditation is it could be triggering for a pain work that you did not take a chance to grieve fit, if that makes sense. So I just want to kind of bring that up, because there are times where I’ve haven’t allowed myself to grieve a pain in my life and it surfaces during meditation because it’s you and yourself. And the most difficult relationship you could have is the one with yourself not with a significant other.

Tim Ulbrich  43:12

Which is I think really also speaks to the role of a therapist and making sure you’re you’re working with someone you know that’s qualified to help you work through that grief as well. Let’s wrap up by talking about your new certificate training program Healing Together, Transforming your Trauma to Triumph. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Tell us more about what this training program includes who it’s for and what you’re trying to accomplish through this.

Dr. Helen Sairany  43:38

So we kind of talked about what inner work is and how the and I like to call it the childhood baggage, which happens to be the title of my third book. That childhood baggage shows up in your relationship with money. We now know that. That childhood baggage shows up in your relationship with your significant other. And guess what? That childhood baggage bleeds all over you in the workplace. So the corporate likes to think about how well we’re back where we should function as if the human is going to shut off the emotion the second they walk into the office. I wish that was the case. I wish that was the case. But we’re all interconnected. We’re all interconnected. Just like our family. I’m sure you read the bones of family theory in my second book, how a family is interconnected like this, right?And for the family to proceed, everybody has to do their work. But the second one member comes out, the whole you know interconnected unit gets disrupted. Let’s say that is addicted to alcohol or gets in prison or they go through divorce whatever, there’s so many adversities in life. So if one member is not able to continue, the whole interconnected unit gets disrupted in which means someone else needs to pick up the role of the individual that got off of the system. Same exact concept with work system. Works system is no different than family system. But what does the corporate do the second an individual goes rogue. They treat that individual like a sacrificial lamb. Right? Cut the head off. And it’s only a matter of time for that problem to surface again and again and again. So we don’t like to think because thinking is hard. Excuse me, we like to judge. So this whole certificate training program, it’s about how the childhood baggage bleeds all over you. How many bosses are narcissist until you like we know what maybe I’m the common denominator here. How many jobs, how many x’s how many, I don’t know what. But this is not about work. This is not about bosses. This is about the inner work. Because people don’t quit jobs, people quit people. And we all bring our own traumas, we all bring our own baggage into the workplace that makes a workplace that is already bad, even worse. So it is about you know, looking at the workplace from a trauma lens and looking about how it is time for us to have a complete look at how people are functioning as if they’re in a dysfunctional family system.

Tim Ulbrich  46:12

It’s great work and we will link to it in the show notes. Your website, Helensairany.com. From there, you’ll find the certificate training program all what’s included in the modules as a part of that. Also, if you haven’t already read one of two as Helen mentioned, there’s a third on its way book but the first two books Trading Grenades for Candy and The We We Don’t See. Both are available on Amazon. You can also find more information on Helen’s website, which we’ll link to in the show notes. Helen, this has been fantastic. As always, I appreciate your input, your perspective, I have a lot of admiration from your work. You’ve certainly taught me a lot and I know that will be true of our community as well.

Dr. Helen Sairany  46:51

Thank you so much, Tim. Thank you for having me.

Tim Ulbrich  46:55

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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