YFP 277: How This Pharmacist Teaches Financial Principles As a Preceptor and Parent

Dr. Frank McCabe discusses his career in pharmacy and how he teaches financial principles as a preceptor and parent. 

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Frank M. McCabe is currently a Pharmacist Consultant with over 37 years experience in the Healthcare industry. He received his undergraduate degrees from Orange County Community College-SUNY Orange (Business Administration) and MCPHS University-Boston (BS Pharm) and his graduate degrees, Masters in Business Administration (Management) from the West Point Military Academy Program (USMA) of Long Island University-CW Post Campus and Doctor of Pharmacy degree from MCPHS University-Boston. Dr. McCabe is a Board Certified Pharmacotherapy Specialist (BCPS). He has served as a preceptor to pharmacy students and pharmacy practice residents. Most of Dr. McCabe’s pharmacy professional experience was in Hospital Pharmacy, including leading one of Nations leading healthcare institutions (St. Joseph’s Health of NJ) acute care hospitals during the Covid-19 pandemic (St. Joseph’s Wayne Medical Center, Wayne, NJ). Dr. McCabe also has had experience in Community practice and Pharmaceutical Industry (Medication Safety and Pharmaceutical Sales Management/Data Management). Dr. McCabe is also a Certified NJ Consultant Pharmacist, which is recognized Nationally by the VA. He has extensive engagement in Professional Societies, including when practicing in New York State as Secretary for the Mid-Hudson Chapter of the NYS Council of Health System Pharmacists and over 10 years as Treasurer for the North Chapter of the New Jersey Society of Health System Pharmacists. Dr. McCabe was also a frequently requested speaker on Nutrition and Vitamins for Corporations and Community organizations in the North New Jersey area.

Episode Summary

This week, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by Frank McCabe, PharmD, BCPS, MBA. Frank is a pharmacist consultant with over 37 years of experience in the pharmacy industry. This week, Dr. McCabe discusses his career in pharmacy, how he caught FIRE early in his career, strategies he employed to allow his children to attend out-of-state schools with very little debt, and how he incorporated personal finance education into his rotational experiences for student pharmacists as a preceptor. 

Frank’s advice to younger pharmacists includes being active in professional societies for continuing education, networking, and helping the future generation of pharmacists. He also encourages younger pharmacists to look for opportunities and training, as he did, so that when opportunities in the pharmacy field present themselves, they may take advantage. He shares a reminder to take care of your mental and physical health while seeking opportunities to make additional income. Being conservative with spending and living frugally while paying off student loan debt can be balanced with putting money into your retirement accounts as well. For pharmacists in the latter part of their careers, Frank explains his view of the current time of financial challenges and high volatility during this period of his retirement. The episode closes with Frank’s strategies for educating student pharmacists and his children on financial principles. His methods include building an understanding of the value of hard work balanced with finding and enjoying your life’s passions.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

• YFP Planning: Financial Planning for Pharmacists
• Schedule a free Discovery Call with YFP Planning
• Seven Figure Pharmacist by Tim Church, PharmD and Tim Ulbrich, PharmD
• Bankrate
• Email Your Financial Pharmacist:  [email protected]
• Your Financial Pharmacist Disclaimer and Disclosures

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:01] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I had the pleasure of interviewing Frank McCabe, a pharmacist consultant living in Pittsburgh, with more than 35 years of experience as a pharmacist spanning institutional practice, pharmacy administration, and pharmaceutical industry. 

During the show, we discuss how he caught fire with personal finance early on in his career. Some of the strategies that he employed to allow his now adult children to attend out of state schools nearly debt-free. And why and how he incorporates personal finance education into rotation experiences for student pharmacists. 

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does and working one on one with more than 250 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fi only high-touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about working one on one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. 

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Frank McCabe. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:27] LB: Frank, welcome to the show.

[00:01:29] FM: Thank you, Tim. Glad to be here. And hopefully we can help the next generation and admire what you’ve done with your financial pharmacist and being an entrepreneur. And it’s really much needed in our profession.

[00:01:42] TU: I really appreciate that. And I’ve been looking forward to this conversation. And just some background of how we got here, as you had reached out to me about purchasing a copy of the book Seven Figure Pharmacist because of a student that you were precepting and wanting to pay it forward. And that initiated a conversation. And we went back and forth with a few emails. 

And I quickly realized that you had a passion for, as you mentioned, training up the next generation, paying it forward, teaching some of the principles that have been so important to you in your own personal journey and your own career journey as well. And so, that’s what we’re going to be talking about here today. We’ll talk a little bit about your personal career journey in pharmacy. We’ll talk a little bit about your family journey and how you taught your children about money or still teaching children about money. 

[00:02:26] FM: Absolutely. 

[00:02:27] TU: And the work that you’ve done precepting students and thoughts that you have on teaching personal finance as a part of some of those experiential rotations. Let’s start, Frank, with your own personal journey and pharmacy. Where did you go to school? When did you graduate? And what drew you into the profession?

[00:02:43] FM: Oh, gosh. Tim, it’s a long journey. 37 faithful years ago. And actually, over 40. I was in the top 25% of my graduating class in high school. And in New York State, in Orange County. Applied to Albany College of Pharmacy. Didn’t get in. Oh, no. But I really admired my family pharmacist, Stanley Moroknek, who own Thrift Drugs in Monroe, New York. So, okay, I did what was convenient and easy to do. But it worked out real well. 

I went to SUNY Orange, the State University in New York, community college. Got a two-year degree in business. And you’ll see how that ties in later on. Completed my associate’s degree. Applied to Massachusetts College of Pharmacy, which is now MCPHS University, Northeastern College of Pharmacy. 

And what was unique about going to a SUNY school, I was guaranteed a spot in a four-year school. I got accepted at SUNY Buffalo for business. But really wanted to pharmacy. So I went off to MCPHS University. And so, I did my undergrad degree there, my Bachelor of Science in Pharmacy. Graduated in December of 1983 and came out into practice. Eventually, I did go on and earn an MBA and also a my PharmD.

[00:03:53] TU: Tell us maybe the cliff note version, 1983 to 2022. Tell us about your career journey, the different areas of the profession that you’ve been in and leading up to the work that you’ve done most recently.

[00:04:07] FM: Yeah, thank you, Tim. I work for CVS when I first graduated school. It was 13-hour days. No lunch. No dinner. No break. Because you were part of management. I graduated 160 pounds. After a year, I was 130 pounds. I said, “I can’t keep this up. I’ll waste away to nothing.” 

I took an opportunity to work for the New York State Office of Mental Health at a large inpatient psychiatric center. It had 1,000 patients when I started there. And that’s where I cut my hospital chops. Like, institutional pharmacy jobs. 

I realized that working there was very good for the patients. Worked with a great group of people. Pharmacists are just smart people and just great people to collaborate with. But also, had a yearning and a desire to do other things in pharmacy and to be a director and assistant director in New York State OMH, often mental health, you would have to have an advanced degree. 

At that time, the Continental Health Care Systems, we’re switching to pharmacy automation. Back then there was no computers, no clinical. It was all typing everything out. Going back years and years. And we visited one of the booths at the New York State Council of Health System Pharmacists. And I should weave in there, Tim. Still to this day, for most of my career, I’ve been active in professional societies. And that’s one way I do give back. And I really implore the younger generation to become involved, whether it’d be a community practice, or institutional practice society. Because you meet a lot of good people and you also have opportunities for continuing education and also to help the younger generation. 

It was through that meeting that I went back and realized I really needed to get an MBA. We were very fortunate at West Point, the New York State Military Academy, Long Island University. Had a program there for 30 years. It was half civilian, half military. Did 60 credits in 18 months while working full-time.

[00:06:05] TU: Wow! Wow!

[00:06:07] FM: And that gave me the opportunity, and my X as well. And I went into pharmaceutical sales, and rose through there. Became a district sales manager. But the industry changed after 2000. The regulatory climate changed. The political climate changed. 

But one thing that sales was very good for, and I think I say to the younger generation, everybody should do a stint in sales. You’re selling a product, but you’re also selling yourself, Tim. You need to articulate your ideas and things. 

And I’ll tie that in for when I was at St. Joseph’s Health, St. Joseph’s Health in northern New Jersey. And I was at St. Joseph’s University Medical Center for six years. It is the fifth busiest emergency room in the entire nation with over 170,000 ER visits a year. Clinically, it was great. Interacting with residents, the pharmacy residents, the clinical pharmacist. But you really need to be able to have opportunities. 

And along my career, besides continuing education, having an MBA, going back for my PharmD, you don’t know what doors are going to be open to you. And there was a management shake-up at St. Joseph’s, and I had the opportunity to become the manager, the pharmacist in charge, at our small facility, St. Joseph Wayne Medical Center. But nobody had figured this out, Tim. I have an MBA. I’m good with numbers. Most pharmacists are excellent with numbers. Nurses are not so good with numbers. But boy, they’re so good at other things and just have such admiration and appreciation for what they do.

But because of that MBA and that additional education, it paid off that many years later. I got my MBA in December of 1991. But here we are in 2018 and my career and realized that St. Joseph’s Health, between both facilities, we had $2.1 million in expired drugs. Not unusual. Probably on the higher side. But the only way you’re going to get a handle on that, Tim, is through automation. 

But also, I was responsible for – neither facility had other pharmacy upgraded in 40 years. We didn’t have any clean rooms. Hey, where are we going to get the money for this? And better yet, we need clean rooms. We need carousels. 

I saw Omnicell’s IVX. I don’t know if – Are you familiar with IVX at all, Tim? 

[00:08:35] TU: I’m not. No. 

[00:08:36] FM: In terms of sterile compounding. It’s a modular device that’ll go in the hood. It has a scale on it. It has a printer. It has a camera. And there’s a cloud library of the specific gravities of the active ingredients and the inactive ingredients. You’re checking that process. While the technicians are compounding, you’re capturing that for regulatory and legal purposes going forward. 

I went out – in fact, we came out here to cranberry, Pennsylvania, to Omnicell’s headquarters for their automation, and realized, “Hey, we can do this.” I was with my boss, Mike Cairoli, who’s now a VP at St. Joseph’s Health, and got a two and a half million-dollar contract signed. They don’t guarantee it anymore. But we also had guarantees of two and a half million dollars in savings over five years. 

I was able to go to the C suite at St. Joseph’s Health. And they’re second biggest provider of charity care in the state of New Jersey and very poor, but to get these contracts signed. And it’s because of my passion. And I tried to inculcate in my staff, whether it’d be the pharmacists or the technicians. And it was true, Tim. On a given day, a patient upstairs could be a colleague, could be a family member, be a friend. It’s our obligation and to practice at our highest level as pharmacist. But to do that, you need technology. I had the opportunity to do that. And also, appeared before the New Jersey Board of Pharmacy twice to educate the board on technology. 

And for reasons, and we wanted to be closer to family here in the Pittsburgh area, we relocated here. But St. Joseph’s Health, last March, the New Jersey Board of Pharmacy requires that a pharmacist be in the cleanroom or the compounding area when the technicians are compounding. But because of my background in sales, my MBA, always been trying to get educated, just not in our profession, but also outside our profession, St. Joseph’s Health was the first institution in the state of New Jersey to get approval and have a pilot once they’re up and running with their cleanrooms and Omnicell’s IVX to have the pharmacists remotely located outside still having line of sight with the technicians compounding, but not having to be in there. 

And the rationale for that, human beings, a simple matter of our head, Tim, you kick off 50,000 flakes of skin and bacteria. More people are introduced to that clean space, the risk of breaking that sterile compounding area. And also, if you had a pharmacist in there, as I talked to Linda Weitzel, the board president Anthony Rubinaccio, the Executive Director of Board of Pharmacy and other members of the board, that you could have 15 technicians compounding. But one pharmacist? How is that safe? 

If you look at that career progression, I would implore the younger generation. It’s tiring. You’re working. You get family. You have children. But always look for those opportunities to latch on to education, whether it’d be a formal education through advanced education, or certificate programs. Because you don’t know down the road where those opportunities are going to happen. And if you have the skill set and that education and training, when that door opens, you can step through it.

[00:12:04] TU: That’s really great, Frank. And it’s really cool to see the thread. One of the things you mentioned, which resonates with me a lot, is the importance of some of the sales principles that you learned, obviously, through the work that you did in the pharmaceutical industry. But as you mentioned, it’s not just about selling the product. It’s about selling yourself and some of the confidence that comes through that process. But I can see where that sales background comes to be when you’re in front of the C suite at St. Joseph and making a pitch. When you’re in front of the board of pharmacy, the New Jersey board, those are sales principles. You’re not, per se, selling a product. But you’re really bringing yourself forward and obviously making a pitch for what you want to do. Really cool to hear and see the thread throughout the journey that you mentioned. 

I want to shift a little bit and talk about some of your own personal financial journey, but also how you’ve been able to instill these principles not only within your own family, but also with students and others that you’ve precepted. And something that really stood out to me in our email exchange was how you instilled the financial knowledge in your children. And before we jump into that, I’m curious how and why did you get interested in personal finance? Was there a moment? Was it through the MBA training? Was it something that you’ve always had an interest in that you’ve always self-taught yourself? Where does your passion and interest around personal finance come from?

[00:13:21] FM: Good question, Tim. And you and I spoke about that a little bit before the recording. It really has to go back to my mom. She passed away just this past April. I miss her every day. On 93 years of age. But she was a bookkeeper, Tim. And a different generation. But her high school education at Walton High School in the Bronx really put her in good stead for lifelong earning ability. 

She reveled in telling us, children and grandchildren, the story of looking for – back in the old days, there was ads in newspapers. It was an ad for a Ford dealership. And back then, they only wanted a man. But she went and said I have the skills. And she got the job. 

I learned that a young age that from mom, genetically, but how to manage your checkbook. How to manage finances. But also, kind of like you, you were saying your mom and dad put up envelopes on the refrigerator. We didn’t have that sophistication. 

I’m the youngest of four. I have three older sisters. The other one is deceased. But we always have the ability to earn extra money. I would clean mom and dad’s car. Hey, if I need extra cash, you can go vacuum and clean their cars, clean the windows. And then we used to – maybe about a mile away, we grew up in a mountaintop in Orange County, New York, there was a convenience store at the bottom of the hill. But we would go buy candy and then resell it at a candy stand. I learned about the multiplier effect of money. 

And then I worked in food service for seven years, Tim, on the New York State Thruway while I was going to community college. And you name it, I did it. I was a cashier. And then I worked in the office on the weekends when I was doing my community college studies. You learn that early. 

And then off to MCPHS University, and mom and dad was very helpful. But I kind of ran out of spending money halfway through the year. We were at Emmanuel College, which was an all-girls Catholic college at the time, MCP, leased a dorm from them. I went off down the block to McDonald’s by Fenway Park and work to get some spending money. 

[00:15:36] TU: Yeah. I love it. 

[00:15:38] FM: Just had that drive and that initiative. But also, making sure I kept up academically as well. I think your question, it comes from genetics. It comes from a good mentor. And then also, the rewards of working and having goals. I’ve really admired our family pharmacist, Stanley Moroknek. I was an otitis media sufferer growing up. And he was just fantastic. I had a goal. And I needed the money. It’s, “Okay, I got to do the academics.” But it needs some spending money because I want to go to Fanueil Hall, or I want to go see a concert. That’s what I did, Tim.

[00:16:16] TU: We talked a little bit about before we recorded today that there’s some challenging times for new practitioners that are out there making this transition from a student pharmacist to the first decade of their career. The student loan debt is well known. We’ve talked about it extensively on the show. The numbers are somewhat mind boggling. North of $170,000 on average of student loan debt.

[00:16:39] FM: Oh, easy. 

[00:16:40] TU: Many, may be higher, private education, longer pathways of education. We’ve seen somewhat of a flattening and stagnation of wages. We’re in a high inflationary period. Pharmacists, certainly still, relatively speaking, make a good income. But many folks may have a ceiling on that income. My question for you, as we think about the next generation of pharmacists and those that are listening, is there a piece of advice or two, Frank, that you would share now looking back 37 plus years of your career? Things that you learned along the way or words of wisdom that you wish you would have had early on that could be helpful to those that are in the front half of their career?

[00:17:19] FM: You have to look at self-help, Tim, in terms of your mental health and your physical health. You’ve got to take care of yourself first. But I think what is put me in good stead over the years is taking the opportunities for overtime. And also, the skill set. Though, here I am a hospital pharmacist, and then a hospital pharmacy manager. But there’s a small chain of independent pharmacies in North New Jersey. And I would add – I get a phone call during the day, “Hey, Frank, can you work tonight.” I would ask the younger generation, besides working 40 or 45 hours a week, whatever your primary job is. And if you have that debt, is to pick up additional shifts elsewhere. 

I know as a hiring manager at St. Joseph’s Health and a short stint here at Allegheny Health Networks, it’s very difficult to find qualified, competent hospital pharmacists. If somebody’s working in community practice, pick up a hospital shift or two as a per diem pharmacist. And that’s one way you can make a transition to hospital pharmacy. 

But what was nice about hospital pharmacy, I work shift work. And at St. Joseph’s, they were a little unique. My shifts were 6:30 to 3:00. I always had my – 90% of my evening is free. I could pick up if somebody called me and they needed coverage on one of the stores that night. 

And funny enough, at St. Joseph’s Health, Monday nights were the biggest nights for call outs. 99% of time, I’d pick up extra shifts. And also, besides earning money, Tim, I’ve always driven my vehicles in excess of 100,000 miles. Even here I am today mostly retired, I am driving a Subaru that’s got 175,000 miles. Can we afford to go buy another car? Sure. But it’s the principle that matter. I don’t need that new flashy thing. 

But also, it’s also putting money into the 401k, and making sure, at a minimum, you’re getting that match. So many institutions or corporations, you don’t have a traditional pension plan. St. Joseph’s Health, they had what was called the church plan. There were lawsuits. But come next year, I’ll be getting a small pension from them. They had switched to a 403b. As soon as they switched with that, they had grandfathered the pension plan. But I started putting money into that 403b. 

And even despite the downturn in 2008, Tim, I did nothing. I let it ride. Because I believe in the stock market historically. Part of the conversation you and I talked about was it’s not what you earn. It’s also what you save. Try and live frugally. 

And also, another way that I do that, another passion of mine, and that may be for a little bit of another segment of our discussion today, Tim, I had the opportunity at St. Joseph’s Health to present and lecture to corporations and community groups over 30 times on supplements and nutrition. Where that ties in terms of your own personal health and well-being, I would bring my own food to work. 

Not only wasn’t that frugal and savings, but it was always available to me. I didn’t have to go to the cafeteria. I made sure that what I was getting was healthy. I never understood about hospital institutional cafeterias selling deep fried chicken and French fries. But they do.

[00:20:46] TU: They do. Well, and I think the frugality message there I think is really important. Maybe a word that my generation doesn’t love necessarily. But I think, frugality, it’s important to remember. It’s not just about the dollars and what we do with those dollars. Certainly, that’s very important, whether we’re paying down debt, or investing, or saving for the future. But it’s also about the momentum and the mindset. 

Here you are nearing retirement. You’ve had a successful career. And you share that, after this interview, you’re going to be working on your Subaru, which is 170,000 miles plus. So, you can keep that thing going and not have to buy another car. And could you? As you mentioned, yes, you could. But it’s that mindset and that momentum that transcends any one financial decision, right? I always say it’s not just about the used car. It’s about the mindset with a used car, which then transcends your ability to save, your momentum to save, and the ability to move towards other financial goals. 

One question I’d have for you, Frank, especially for pharmacists listening that are maybe in the latter part of their career, here we are in a very challenging, volatile time period of the market. You mentioned, you’re mostly retired, how are you viewing this time period? You’ve done all this work to accrue your assets leading up to retirement. And here we are in a very challenging time period. But you’ve always had this long-term view of investing. Just take us inside Frank’s brain in the moment as someone who’s nearing retirement and how you’re viewing this high volatility period as you’re approaching a time where you may need to draw upon those funds.

[00:22:21] FM: One point that is unique in my situation, Tim, that helps me a lot, my wife, Marge, is a retired public school business administrator for the state of New Jersey. And she continues to work. In fact, she’s doing CE today. But I have her health benefits. That affords some flexibility. 

Do I get worried about the market? Yes. But I lived through the downturn in 2008. I have my 401k monies, my 403 monies, in lifestyle funds. As you go through time, they’re morphing more towards bonds. I’ve seen the growth in my retirement funds from 10, 15 years ago. And also, because I was in pharmaceutical sales, and I worked for GlaxoSmithKline, when I left their employ, I left my 401k monies there, because they pay – It’s a much bigger corporation. Lot more monies. 

At some point, I will have to consolidate this. But a lot of the fees they’ve paid to manage those funds. That has allowed my money to grow. I think that the days of staying with an employer for 30 or 40 years is rare. I think for the younger pharmacist is, okay, don’t panic. Leave the money. And then at some point – it’s a little bit of a hassle sometimes to tie that money together to roll it over. But you don’t want to take that out. 

If you need money –I can. And I looked before I started with Allegheny General Hospital last year, within 14, 10 miles of my house, I think there’s 14 independent pharmacies, Tim? And you’re looking at, from my knowledge, the first pharmacist in the history of the state of Pennsylvania, because of my perseverance and persistence to get his immunization licensed by reciprocity. They’ve never done that before. I would say to the younger generation, believe in yourself. Follow through. But it takes a lot of work. 

I sent 30 pages of documentation to the board here in a pandemic. Okay, I didn’t get my education training for immunization. It was back in 2013. No, it’s not two years ago, like the board requires. But I’ve been immunizing up until then. I think tying in financially, and that long view outlook is that persistence and perseverance. Believing yourself. Taking care of yourself. Eating right. Getting exercise.

[00:24:53] TU: Yep. And letting the time value of money do its thing, right? You live through a couple of steps. And one thing I was sharing recently with some folks is I graduated in ’08. And for folks that have graduated somewhere around that time period, or since then, this is really the first test of that long-term view and philosophy that we talk about. 

And it’s one thing to say it. It’s another thing to live it, especially for folks that have maybe been saving for 12, 13 years. You look at your portfolio, it could be down 20%, 25%, 30%. But to hear from folks such as yourselves that have lived through these dips. And we know the history. If we look at the market since the Great Depression, this is not unique. It’s happened before. The reasons are different. But this is not unique. And this is why we’ve got to have that long-term view of investing and make sure that we’re keeping that long-term view in mind.

[00:25:43] FM: I agree. I agree. And one thing we left out of there, and maybe that’s another segment, is also real estate.

[00:25:49] TU: Mm-hmm. Tell me more. Is that been a part of your journey?

[00:25:52] FM: It has been. Yeah, I’ve not been a real estate investor in the sense of some people could do it if you have the stomach for it. It’s just not my personality. But some people do get investment properties and rent out. But I’ve been a homeowner since 1986. And this is probably my fifth home. I don’t own the other homes. But the market long-term has been good. Because the current structure, it’s a little bit different especially living – Well, we lived in – Pennsylvania can be higher in taxes, but New Jersey certainly was one of the highest in the nation. And that limit would solve taxes. But getting that home equity over the years, and sweat equity. 

For me, Tim, growing up in high school, I took power mechanics and woodworking. And I worked with my hands. And I find that relaxing. But now, gosh, the younger generation, don’t forget YouTube. You can learn how to hang a drape. You can learn how to do a minor Plumbing Repair, do those kinds of things. I would also suggest that the younger generation, when they can afford it, is to get into their own home. 

And I kind of laugh, but I don’t want to laugh. Mortgage rates are at 5%, right? 

[00:27:08] TU: That’s right. 

[00:27:09] FM: But historically, my first home was like 13%. 

[00:27:11] TU: Yeah. Perspective, right? 

[00:27:13] FM: And our current home, Tim, we have a mortgage. We don’t need it. But it’s a 2.375%. We’re using somebody else’s money. You think of that time value of money, as you talked about, and how you deploy those assets, how you deploy your savings, how you deploy your long-term goals.

[00:27:34] TU: Frank, let me put myself in the shoes of a student on rotation with you, and you’re teaching me all these things, time value of money, and home appreciation, and equity in the home, and all the things long-term. And I hear all that. And I’m like, “Frank, that’s great. But I’ve got $200,000 in student loan debt. Homes are at crazy prices right now. Pharmacist income is relatively flat.” If we get tangible for a moment, it really comes down to we need to live off of less than we make so that we can create the cash flow to be able to allocate money towards these longer-term goals. 

And so, what does that look like? I’m a new graduate. I’m a transitioning graduate. What are the principles that I’m putting in place that allow me to live that discipline lifestyle so I can live off of less than I make and I can ultimately try to really save and invest the difference?

[00:28:24] FM: Tim, I don’t think it’s dissimilar to high school education today. Nevermind college graduates and pharmacist graduates. They fill our heads with so much clinical knowledge, and it’s great, and it’s a value to the patients that we serve. But I don’t think the schools are doing a good job in terms of what is this tuition mean. 

And when you’re going through, try and be frugal student. But now here, you graduate, and you said the average is $170,000 in debt? Well, how the heck am I going to get out of this debt? Well, you got to have a job. You get your primary job. 

Also, do a time value analysis. You can go to bankrate.com. You can use Excel. And I’ve done that with my students that, “Okay, here’s your debt. What do you think the current interest rate is going to be? What’s your minimum payment going to be?” Nevermind how do I get rid of this debt? 

And the students that I talked with, the schools have not done a good job of providing them with resources and information. They’re smart enough. Heck, hell, yeah. Yeah. We’re two percenters, Tim. Do you know what I mean by two percenters?

[00:29:29] TU: In terms of the 2% that are applying? Or what are you referring to?

[00:29:33] FM: No. Only about 2% of the US population has doctoral level degrees. 

[00:29:38] TU: Oh, okay. 

[00:29:39] FM: It’s probably evenly split between professional degrees like MD, PharmD, and PhDs. Let’s face it. You get through pharmacy school, they’re smart people. But they’ve just not gotten a sense. It’s like, “Oh my gosh.” And I think what I’ve done, and I think any graduating pharmacist can do, once you get that job, is hopefully you’re eligible for overtime. If not, you pick up extra shifts. Find another job. Maybe it’s outside of your passion or what you’re doing. But there’s usually – because there’s no benefits involved. 

I know probably – I’m 99% sure, Tim. I go and throw my CV around within 10 miles of here, and somebody’s looking [inaudible 00:30:25]. I’ll pick it up. 

[00:30:28] TU: Yup, absolutely. 

[00:30:28] FM: Yeah. I wouldn’t say, “Okay, I got this debt. What’s my minimum payment? What’s my maximum payment?” Because that’s going to impede their ability to get a mortgage, to buy a car. Got to pay for benefits out of your paycheck, for health insurance. But also, if there’s a retirement plan, you want to make sure you maximize that. Because the time value of money, you graduate ’24, ‘25. And you’re going to retire. Let’s say they raise social security to 68. Oh, boy! The value of compounding that. And you could do that through easily on bankrate.com. If I put 50 bucks a paycheck, times 52 weeks, and do that over 30 or 40 years. But you need to – Yeah, I can do vancomycin dosing. But nobody’s taught me how to do this.

[00:31:20] TU: Yeah. No. It’s so true. And I think there’s a gap. We’ve been fortunate to partner with over 40 colleges and to do some personal finance education. Often, those are one-off sessions. But for several of them, we’ve seen individuals at the dean level that have really bought into, “Hey, we need to be doing this and doing this longitudinally for our students.” 

And what I love hearing preceptors like yourself doing this, it needs to continue from the didactic curriculum to the experiential curriculum. And obviously, my hope is even post-graduation associations and others will pick up some of the education as well. And then we need to pass it on and pass it back, so that when we’re precepting students, we’re able to help them in their own journey. 

And step number one is often just that awareness. You give the example of student loan debt and the calculator. And before we can put a plan into action, we have to know what we’re working with. And so, $170,000, as I’ve said on the show before through my own journey, that feels like Monopoly money. But when you look at it as a monthly payment, and what does this actually mean? Okay, this starts to become real. Now we can put a plan in place. 

And we first have to accept that, yes, pharmacists might make a good six figure income, but you’re not taking home six figures, right? And this is simple math. We all know this. But students may not be thinking about that. Or what is the actual take home amount? And coming down a little bit off of the high of that, and then looking at what’s that going to mean in terms of bills, mortgages, student loan expenses. And really starting to work that budget so we can make sure we’re achieving those longer-term goals.

[00:32:54] FM: And I think, Tim, sometimes you look at that big figure of 170,000, you throw up your arm. 

[00:32:59] TU: That’s right. Yup. 

[00:33:01] FM: But so often, you got to slice that pie. Here’s the pie for food. Here’s the pie for the rent. Here’s the pie from a student loan. Okay, I can do this on my salary. But I don’t want to be paying this off for – I want to get a house. I want to go on vacation. How am I going to accelerate this? And I think the way to do it is you have no choice. I think you’ve really got to pick up an additional job. And that’s okay, because it’s a sprint. You get through that. Get that loan paid off. And then you can start doing what you really want to be doing.

[00:33:37] TU: Frank, one of the things you shared with me is that your daughter became debt-free at the age of 28. Your son, very small amount of debt. He’s an engineer for Tesla. And so, for me, as a father of four young boys running YFP, teaching them about personal finance is a really important topic. And I’ve tried a few different things with my kids. And it’s been interesting to see some of the behaviors and habits that they’re picking up on. As you look at now, parenting adult children, I would guess this journey never ends, right? In terms of teaching and – 

[00:34:08] FM: Tim, it never ends. Parental love. And I just talked to my children last night, and it’s just you think and worry about them, and frighten them every day.

[00:34:19] TU: Yeah. What worked for you? As you look back on that journey, and teaching your kids about money, what were some of the strategies that you employed, or even things that you’re currently employing? For folks that are listening that maybe have younger children or perhaps will have children into the future, what are some of the strategies? What are some of the tips when it comes to teaching kids about money?

[00:34:40] FM: I think it starts off with, Tim, that my ex and I are both pharmacist and believe in higher education. And also, believe that idle hands are the devil’s hands. And there’s a cost associated with that. But we always kept our kids busy, even if we’re both working parents. It might be after care, during the school year, going to parochial school, and during the summer, going to enrichment camps. But that also tied in. 

My daughter, she played town rec ball, high school basketball, AAU basketball. And she went on to the University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth for sculpture and graphic design. And she played division three basketball. And that was her passion. As parents, we didn’t expect her to get a part-time job. 

But my son had the good fortune, from Montclair, New Jersey to get accepted. We lived in Cedar Grove, New Jersey. But by taking the train, the path into New York City every day, he got accepted into Xavier high school in Manhattan. And that’s a Jesuit school, all boys. But also, by getting accepted, he also got the Sons of St. Patrick’s scholarship. And that required him to work. 

He worked at a mom and pop local gardening store all four years. Of course, I was beneficiary, because I got the shrubs for half price. I did some of my own landscaping. You know, sweat equity. Both children, they learned to work hard and be passionate through different avenues. 

I’m wrestling my daughter being academically, getting scholarships, but also working hard. She was never a star player, but she really enjoyed it. And living in New Jersey at the time, both kids went to state schools out of state. You’re paying out of state tuition. We just buckled down. I picked up extra shifts so I didn’t have to eat pork and beans. But we, me and my ex, paid a majority of their education. 

But you were talking – And this is not that long ago, Tim. It was $30,000 a year tuition, room and board. They both have cars. You’re talking $50,000 a year each. Marissa graduated with, I think, about $8,000 in loans. And she has paid those. And then Matthew had about 17,000. That was it, from Purdue University. And he’s down to 5000. And he’s in no rush, because there’s been no need.

It’s teaching your children the value of money younger, of hard work. Also, following your passions. Marissa is probably lifelong – She’s had some injuries. But she goes to the gym. I was a skier. My son took to snowboarding like a fish to water. And also, mountain biking. It’s not just teaching your kids the value of money and hard work, Tim. But it’s also introducing them to sports activities they can do lifelong and be healthy. Because not only just physically healthy, but mentally healthy. Both of my children, yeah, when I talk with them, they go to the gym, they do hiking. Matthew just loves being out in Reno, Nevada, because he’s an hour and a half from the Sierra Nevadas. And buys the epic pass and whatever passes, and every time he can when he’s not at work.

[00:38:10] TU: Tough life, huh? Tough life out there. Yeah. I love, really, the message of work. I think so often, for good reasons, we talk about strategies, like, 529 accounts, and saving, and scholarships, and cash flowing it, and all of those have value. But one of my hopes with my boys is, sure, we’d love to help where we can financially, whether that’s 529 accounts, whether that’s guiding them to scholarships, whether that’s cash flowing it. The expense so they’re not burdened with the debt. But also, there’s a lifelong lesson that comes from that hard work component, right? And that is something that transcends any type of transfer of here’s $10,000, from a 529 account. That’s great. But the lifelong lesson of the hard work that can come from that is going to have a much, much bigger return on investment. I think that’s a great reminder. And I’m grateful that you shared that.

Frank, my last question for you is I suspect we have many pharmacists listening that have students on rotation with them, residence on rotation with them, and perhaps have thought before, “How can I incorporate this topic of personal finance into the rotation? Into the learning experience?” 

And I’ve actually had a handful of people email me over the past couple years that are doing some cool things around this topic. And so, my question is, for you, that others might be able to adopt or build upon, what have you done, practically speaking, with students around the topic of personal finance that others might be able to apply in their own situation?

[00:39:41] FM: What I’ve done – and I just did it with Jordan. As you know, I bought a gift. And we’ve got to get together. I’ve been so busy. But I did reach out to him. I do have your book. And within the next couple of weeks, him and I will get together. But one of the first things we did, I have no – Hey, when are you going to graduate? Depends what year they’re in. How much money do you have in loans? And what does that mean? Here’s that dollar figure. What are your plans for paying that back? How are you going to pay it back? 

You introduce them to tools, whether through Excel or bankrate.com. And make a realistic, concrete example of what their payment is going to be when they graduate? And what jobs are available to them? And also, suggest, and try, and push, and prod, and share with them what I’ve done and what’s been successful for me. 

And my mom, at a young age, she – They said, “Well, how are you going to be successful in college?” Well, I like nice things, Tim. Nice things doesn’t necessarily mean new, shiny things. But it means the ability – my days off, I want to go skiing. I want to go mountain biking. It’s putting concrete things to that student and saying, “How are you going to get there and follow your personal passions, as well as your professional passions?” But also, because it’s become so competitive, Tim, I also encourage the students to become board certified.

[00:41:10] TU: Yeah, another credential that can help there. And I love the angle of the passions, right? Because one of things we often talk about is that a good financial plan – Yes, we need to be taking care of our future self. Yes, we need to be planning for retirement. But we also have to make sure we’re living a rich life today, right? Throughout. There has to be this balance between the two. 

And I think that connects and makes the topic come alive, especially as we’re talking about working with students, that when I talk about 401k accounts, 403b accounts, Roth IRAs, HSAs, insurance policies, those are tomorrow things in their mind. 

[00:41:45] TU: That’s Greek. That’s Greek. 

[00:41:46] TU: Right. Exactly. Yeah, it’s overwhelming. It’s confusing. But what’s right in front of them are student loans. I’m thinking about buying a home. There’re these things that I haven’t done for the last six or eight years when I’ve been in school that I’ve enjoyed that were hobbies or passions that I haven’t done that don’t want to do again. And so, being able to really lean into those areas that they can resonate with, that they can hook on to, I think can really help make the financial plan come alive. 

And then from there, take those jumping points, right? To talk about time value of money. To talk about Roth IRAs, and 401k’s and HSAs. But we’ve got to often meet the learner where they are, and then take them on the journey towards the future as well. 

[00:42:24] FM: Yeah, absolutely, Tim. Yeah, because they’re going to be with you for many weeks on rotation, for 8 weeks. You don’t need to bludgeon them over the head day one. But just bring that into the conversation.

[00:42:36] TU: Yeah. Well, it’s great. And one of the ideas we’ve had for a while that has just hit the backburner, among other things, is coming up with a preceptor toolkit of sorts around this topic. I’ve taught a personal finance course at a couple universities that we can use as a jumping point. But if there’s any preceptors out there listening that would like to join me and put something together that we could perhaps share with others, I suspect that we all have different resources or tools that would be helpful, shoot us an email, [email protected]. And we’d love to get a small group together to talk about this further. 

Frank, thanks so much for taking time to come on the show to share your journey, the wisdom with the next generation of pharmacists. Really appreciate it. And your mindset towards paying it forward. Thank you so much.

[00:43:18] FM: Tim, thank you so much for having me. And I’m looking so forward to some people, pharmacists, viewing this and latching on to an idea. And your good hard work that you’re doing is just much needed in the profession. Hats off to you.

[00:43:32] TU: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. 

[OUTRO]

[00:43:34] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

Current Student Loan Refinance Offers

Advertising Disclosure

Recent Posts

[pt_view id=”f651872qnv”]