YFP Planning Case Study #2: Planning for Retirement, Saving for Kids’ College, and Paying Off Debt
On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, YFP Co-Founder & Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP® is joined by YFP Planning Lead Planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA®, and Robert Lopez, CFP® to walk you through a financial planning case study on planning for retirement, saving for kids’ college, and paying off debt.
About Today’s Guests
Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA®
Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA® is a Lead Planner at YFP Planning. She enjoys time with her husband and two sons, riding her bike, running, and keeping after her pup ‘Fred Rogers.’ Kelly loves to cheer on her favorite team, plan travel, and ironically loves great food but does not enjoy cooking at all. She volunteers in her community as part of the Chambersburg Rotary. Kelly believes that there are no quick fixes to financial confidence, and no guarantees on investment returns, but there is value in seeking trusted advice to get where you want to go. Kelly’s mission is to help clients go confidently toward their happy place.
Robert Lopez, CFP®
Robert Lopez, CFP®, is a Lead Planner at YFP Planning. Along with his team members, Kimberly Bolton, CFP®, and Savannah Nichols, he helps YFP Planning clients on their financial journey to live their best lives. To go along with his CFP® designation, Robert has a B.S. in Finance and an M.S. in Family Financial Planning. Prior to his career in financial planning, Robert worked as an Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician in the United States Air Force. Although no longer on active duty, he still participates as a member of the Air Force Reserves. When not working, Robert enjoys being outdoors, playing co-ed volleyball and kickball, catching a game of ultimate frisbee, or hiking with his wife Shirley, young son Spencer, and their dogs, Meeko and Willow.
Episode Summary
What are your retirement goals, and do your investments align with your vision of the future? Welcome to another episode of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. YFP Co-Founder & Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP® is joined by YFP Planning Lead Planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA®, and Robert Lopez, CFP®, to walk you through a financial planning case study on planning for retirement, saving for kids’ college, and paying off debt. This is our second case study, and this time we hone in on the lives of a fictitious couple, Fiona and Rob Anderson. We examine their financial portfolios, from salaries and debt to their investment accounts and insurance policies. Listeners will learn about Rob and Fiona’s retirement goals and whether they have invested in the right ways to achieve them. The problem of conflicting goals rises to the surface, and Kelly and Robert share how you can manage to prioritize your children’s college education with your own retirement plan. Kelly and Robert touch on innovative ways to spend less on college while giving us invaluable advice on making your investments work for you. Delaying your retirement and waiting to claim your Social Security are helpful methods in ensuring cash flow during retirement. Finally, we get a glimpse at what paying a mortgage during retirement is like, and whether there is reason to panic.
Key Points From This Episode
- Getting to know Fiona and Rob Anderson.
- The home, work, and financial portfolios of our case study couple.
- Fiona and Rob’s investment accounts and insurance policies.
- Diving into tax concerns.
- Your children’s education versus building your retirement fund – conflicting goals.
- How to prioritize conflicting goals.
- Some innovative ways to lower the costs of college/university.
- How to use 401Ks, RSUs, and other investment accounts wisely, for investing in your goals.
- Delaying retirement and waiting to claim Social Security.
- A closer look at whether their particular investment accounts work for their specific goals.
- Unpacking the target date fund and traditional IRA.
- What to consider when paying a mortgage in retirement.
- Your age concerning your debt, and if there is reason to panic.
Highlights
“You can take out loans for school, but you can’t take out loans for your own retirement. So make sure you take care of yourself first.” —Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:08:20]
“It’s really like golden handcuffs. It’s a way for a company to make sure that you’re not going to want to leave, ‘Hey, here’s this money, but you have to stay here to get it.’” — Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:18:25]
“Taking those dollars that you feel are being wasted and putting them towards something that you actually feel pain over, is huge.” — Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:21:00]
“Things happen unexpectedly. So, having your documents in place is important, and it makes it a lot simpler and less chaotic.” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA® [0:24:20]
“The emotional variable, I can’t calculate for.” —Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:32:12]
“‘Money is power.’ But money is not power. Options are power. Having the option to do different things, and having the ability to make different plans is powerful.” — Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:35:02]
“The best plan is one that works. As long as it works for them, then they made the right choice.” — Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:35:16]
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode
- YFP Planning: Financial Planning for Pharmacists
- Schedule a free Discovery Call with YFP Planning
- Insuring Income: Get Quotes and Apply for Term Life and Disability Insurance
- YFP Planning Case Study #2 Summary Sheet
- Your Financial Pharmacist Disclaimer and Disclosures
Episode Transcript
[INTRODUCTION]
[00:00:00] TB: You’re listening to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, a show all about inspiring you, the pharmacy professional, on your path towards achieving financial freedom. Hi, I’m Tim Baker, and we’re back with the Case Studies, this time with the Andersons. I sit down with YFP Planning’s Lead Planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner and Robert Lopez, to walk through this fictitious family and their financial plan.
Although the Anderson’s are not an actual couple we work with, they are really a composite of clients that we do work with in reality. The first part of the discussion, we lay the groundwork of the Anderson’s jobs and salary situations, where they live. We walk through their net worth and point out important elements of their financial situation. We also talk about their goals and what they’re trying to achieve.
We then talk back and forth about their financial situation. One of the big focuses being on education versus retirement planning and how to best use their investments going forward. This is a bit of the behind the scenes look at what goes on at YFP Planning. I hope you enjoy this episode, but first, let’s hear from our sponsor and we’ll jump into the show.
[SPONSOR MESSAGE]
[00:00:58] ANNOUNCER: This week’s podcast episode is brought to you by Insuring Income. Insuring Income is your source for all things term-life insurance and own-occupation disability Insurance. Insuring Income has a relationship with America’s top rated term Life Insurance and Disability Insurance Company. So pharmacists like you can easily find the best solutions for your personal situation. To better serve you, Insuring Income reviews all applicable carriers in the marketplace for your desired coverage, supports clients in all 50 states and makes sure all of your questions get answered.
To get quotes and apply for term life or disability insurance, see sample contracts from disability carriers or learn more about these topics. Visit insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist. Again that’s insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist.
[EPISODE]
[00:01:50] TB: What’s up, everybody? Welcome back to YFP Planning, case study number two. The last time, if we remember our first case study, which I thought was smooth, looked at the Joneses. This time, we’re looking at YFP Planning case study number two, the Anderson’s. The Anderson’s that are a little bit different stage of life, but I’m excited to jump in with my colleagues Robert Lopez and Kelly Reddy-Heffner. Guys ,what’s going on? How are things going where you’re at?
[00:02:15] KRH: Good.
[00:02:16] RL: Yeah. It’s 105 today, so—
[00:02:19] TB: 105 in Phoenix. Kelly, you are, I’m sure, all in on this case study, not imagining sitting on the beach next week.
[00:02:26] KRH: That’s right. I am totally all in. Not distracted at all, but excited to talk through people in mid-stage.
[00:02:34] TB: Awesome. All good. So, Robert, same as last time. Why don’t you set up and, for those listening on the podcast, we are releasing these on video, so you should be able to see us talk through our one page overview of the Anderson’s. Robert is going to set us up in terms of salaries and things like that. Kelly is going to get into goals and debt, and then I’ll take us home, and then we’ll open it up for discussion and go from there. So, Robert, why don’t you take us away?
[00:02:58] RL: Yeah. So, today we’re working with Fiona and Roy Anderson. Fiona is Field Medical Director. She’s 46 years old, making $155,000 a year. Roy is a Pharmacy Manager, 48 years old, making 135. They’re married, filing jointly. They have two sons, Michael and Paul, aged 16 and 14 respectively. They live in Jersey City, New Jersey. Their gross income works out to about $290,000 a year, which breaks down to around $24,000 monthly. Their net, or what they actually receive in their bank accounts, is about $12,000 a month. Their fixed expenses are $6,300, variable expenses of $2,200, and then about $3,300 of monthly savings. They live and own a three bedroom, a single family house. They purchased in 2008, which they got for $420,000 using a conventional 20 percent down at a 6 percent interest rate. Then, in 2015, they’re able to refinance to a 4 percent, 30 year fixed mortgage.
[00:03:56] KRH: Then they have a few goals that they want to accomplish while we’re working together, hypothetically. They want to pay for the four years of undergrad for Michael and Paul. They are making 529 contributions, which they recently increased. They have a pretty robust amount in the account baseline. They want to know if they’ll have enough to accomplish that. Concurrently, they want to try to retire in the next ten to 15 years. One thing to consider is, with the home that they currently own, they want to downsize and move to Florida. Then they are concerned about some of the debt that they still have, as well. So, that debt is listed out as a home equity line of credit that has a 5 percent interest rate.
They remodeled their kitchen and are paying $1,000 a month on that. They still have car loans. They pay a total of 750 interest rates between 3.5 and 4.25 when the two car notes. They still have their own student loans, which is always an interesting intersection with paying your own children’s college tuition as well. They refinance to a ten year private loan, 4.25 percent five years ago. Then, of course, they have the mortgage. So it’s a 30 year fixed 4 percent interest rate after that refi. They’re seven years in and they’re paying 2,500 a month.
[00:05:21] TB: Then, from the wealth building side, they have some cash in the bank, $20 grand in checking, $50 grand in savings, but in terms of their investments they’re looking at 401K, so they both currently have 401K that they’re contributing 4 percent each, plus a 4 percent employer match, so basically 8 percent in total. They’re both invested in the 2035 target date funds. Fiona has an old 401K, a small one at $15,000 that she hasn’t really looked at. They do have a 529 account that they’re increased their contributions lately to $1,0LL, so $500 for each son, so $12,000 a year to get to that goal. Unfortunately, they don’t get an income tax deduction, because in New Jersey if you make more than $200,000 it’s off the table.
They do have a taxable account which is basically Fiona’s RSU, so stock units as part of her compensation, which we see in a lot of Industry Pharmacists. We’ll get that as part of their comp. She has $125,000 that it’s currently sitting in there, all in the company stock, and then they have a joint savings account that they’re putting a hundred bucks a month in, to consider the rainy day.
Michael graduation trip, when you graduate high school, and then a traditional IRA that they’re funding for Fiona in a balanced fund. That is basically their investment accounts. Roy also has a Roth IRA that has about $36,000 in it that he’s not contributing to. It’s sitting there presently.
From a wealth protection, so this is typically where we talk about insurance, in a state, they each have a 20 year term, $1 million policy that they purchased five years ago, plus a little bit of group life insurance that basically matches their salaries, $150,000, $135,000 respectively. They both have short term and long term disability which has a benefit of 60 percent. That’s going occupation for two years, then any act after that. Roy carries his own professional liability policy. Then, they have a will that was done when Michael was born, so basically 15, 16 years ago. A living will or trust, power of attorney that needs to be updated.
From a tax perspective, they currently use an accountant, but they’re not sure they’re maximizing their deductions. They recognize that New Jersey state income tax and property taxes are killing them, which is why a lot of people from New Jersey moved to Florida. It’s not as bad. They typically owe taxes every year, so they’re basically reached in their pocket for that. One of the big tax concerns they have is that with Fiona’s RSUs, they’re worried about capital gains on that and not really sure what to use that for.
Some other things are conflicted about how much to put towards college versus their own retirement. Can they retire in 15 years? In retirement, they’re really looking to up their travel game a little bit more. So I guess, I’ll pose the question to the group here when you guys look at the Anderson’s, Fiona and Roy, what are some major things that stick out to you when you’re approaching them in terms of their financial plan?
[00:08:08] RL: Yeah. The first two goals that they have are conflicting here. So they want to pay for education for the boys, but they also want to make sure they’re setting themselves up for retirement. One of the phrases that you’ll hear a lot through financial conversations is, “You can take out loans for school, but you can’t take out loans for your own retirement. So make sure you take care of yourself first.” I think they’ve done a really good job with that so far. They’ve saved a lot in their 401K. They’ve set aside money for the boys at the same time, but now it’s really deciding on how to be important about that and how to be decisive.
The 4 percent that they’re doing into their retirement accounts, plus 4 percent of a match is good, but not where we’d like to be. Ideally, we want to meet at least 10 percent, and I think there are going to be some ways that we can get them to that point. I think that their savings in their 529, right now, is aggressive at $1,000 a month. That’s a pretty big chunk of their cash flow. I think that that’s actually going to be enough, depending on some scenarios we may discuss. But really deciding is the order that they gave it to us, to correct order that they have. Is the boy’s education more important than their own retirement? Are they willing to accept the opportunity cost or the change that would require? They may need to work longer to send the boys to college, and really flushing that out.
[00:09:14] TB: I think one of the things that is interesting about this case, because we hear it for a lot of new practitioners, is the age old question of, should I pay down my debt, i.e., my student loans or should I get going on my retirement, my investments? There’s that push and pull that I don’t think really ever goes away, because there’s just different things that are always competing against that berm investment game. So when you look at this, how would you walk them through or walk them down the path of getting down to the granular bits and pieces of the retirement versus the education? Is that something that you would look to model out? Is it really asking more clarifying questions with regard to their goals? Walk me through your thought process there.
[00:10:03] KRH: Sure. I agree with Robert that those are conflicting. So, talking through what’s important when individuals have their own student loan debt, they really do tend to lean towards creating scenarios where that doesn’t exist for their own children. We do a high level nest egg that popping some numbers in, based on this case study, they probably wouldn’t be able to retire in ten years, based on these numbers. So, Robert is correct about that, too. More contribution would be better. As far as the education, we can model out and take a look. Certain schools are going to be more cost effective. There are other things that students can do. Good grades. Robert gives a great talk on collect exams, which I love. My own children have listened to some of the conversation.
There are ways to make college funding more affordable and have those conversations. The kids are at an age at, especially at 16, really to start the conversation about what’s affordable, what makes the most sense, and the parents, setting some boundaries on what they’re comfortable with to not sacrifice their own retirement goals. Yeah, a combination of modeling would definitely answer some of the questions about that expected cost in the future, how much they’re going to be able to cover. What the shortfall is. Then I think Robert’s right too, about finding a better balance with the goals and how to prioritize them.
[00:11:40] TB: Robert, can you give us the cliff notes on the CLEP thing? Because I think that’s actually pretty powerful, if you’re a pharmacist that’s listening and then you have kids that are high school age looking at colleges. This is something that I think [inaudible 00:11:50].
[00:11:54] RL: Yeah, Tim. One of the big things that we like to talk about with clients is not necessarily just saving for college, but also ways to save on college and education expenses. There are a ton of ways to do that, whether it’s planning to go to a community college for the first couple of years or it’s maybe just ignoring traditional education and going to our trade schools. But one of the ways I like to do it is just getting credits out of the way, and everyone understands dual enrollment credits and everyone talks about AP courses, where they can test out of college classes, but a CLEP, a C-L-E-P is run by the College Board. It’s the same people that create the SAT.
What it is? Is it’s a test where you can sit down. Take a one-time test where it costs about 90 bucks on a bunch of general education classes. If they pass that course, then they get to skip it in college, they get automatic credits that will be accepted at the majority of universities. Now, every university in college has their own rubric that they request, and they say, “Hey, you have to get at least 65 on this class for it to count. They only accept these five classes. 65 different CLEPs, that different college will accept.
If you’re a math major and you don’t want to take English classes, take these two tests while you’re in high school, when you just learn English and never have to take it in college. Or if you’re an English major who doesn’t want to take mathematics, when you take a mathematics and high school that’s practicing for the test, you take a CLEP, you pass it, you never have to take it in college again. It’s a great way to either get a head start on college or get through the classes that are going to slow you down, and allow you due to the coursework that actually excites you and makes you want to go to college, rather than slogging through the first two years of Gen Ed before you can get to the stuff that you care about.
[00:13:20] TB: Yeah, I think it’s now really important to highlight all the tools that are available for students and parents to make a good decision. I feel like, if I get in the time machine and go back to when I was looking at schools, I didn’t have any. And I think because—I would have done very foolish things back in the day. I think that if there are things that we can do, whether scholarships or things like Test NL, going to put the price tag a little bit more affordable. I think probably one of the things that I would want to model out and what’s interesting about the Anderson’s is that they have a goal in place.
A lot of people, especially, I think if they have young kids, will ask, “What’s the goal for sending your kids to college?” It’s like, “I don’t know.” That’s what we talk about the one third rule, which we’ve talked about at length, where you can pay—basically the idea is that what you’re putting in 529 is one source of the tuition, and then another source would be when your child is 17 or 18 going into college, you’re basically paying that out of your paychecks, you’re sending a check to the college. Then the last third would be the scholarships and the student loans. Last but not least. We use that as a default, that there’s no idea what they want to do. With Fiona and Roy, the idea is put them through four years of undergrad.
Kelly, we know that not all schools are created equal, right? Whether they go to somewhere like Rutgers, which is in the state in New Jersey or somewhere like The University of Miami, which is a private school out of state in Florida, how do you advise parents to talk to their kids or just approach this with their kids, in terms of sensible decisions with regard—I know it’s hard at 17, 18 year old to go about approaching that question.
[00:15:07] KRH: Well, definitely when we started that conversation, it was talking about what our budget was, what we were going to be able to contribute. Then, looking when we would look up schools, understanding what the tuition is. There’s a number that pops up a lot on schools or websites. That’s an average cost, unfortunately, depending on your income and for many of our clients. That income is not going to reflect what that average cost is. So the average cost assumes 100 percent paid for, in some scenarios, all the way up to paying the full price tag. It’s really good to understand what your cost is likely to be, and at this income level for Fiona and Roy, it’s probably not a whole lot of financial aid.
I would assume no financial aid based on need. I do recommend having an understanding of what your cost might be. What schools are going to give those scholarships? There are certain schools that only give financial based need aid. There are schools that give grants for being a tuba player, the football player, great academics. So knowing your skills, what your talents are in a range. I would agree, we mentioned, Rutgers, a state school is going to be different than Princeton. What does that look like between the two? But I think people also discount private schools, and just seeing some of those schools have pretty nice endowment and a little better package. I would say I’d look at a nice handful.
We sometimes see kids are applying to 30 schools. You’re busting your budget, just on application fees. So, pick a few that makes sense. Have a few you can compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges and be like—you’re really looking for the best package and the best fit that’s financially viable for you and the student borrower, who’s going to take on any debt that you all can’t pay for if the savings is at capacity.
[00:17:14] TB: Yeah, I agree. I think one of the wildcards in this whole situation is we look at the taxable account. So, I don’t think I broke down what they have in their 401K. But Fiona has a 425 plus another 15 in an old 401K, Roy has 459. Then they have 365 and a Roth IRA and 195 – Ira. I think the wild card Robert, in this whole scenario in terms of the planning is what to do with the RSUs. These are a weird, because it’s compensation that comes in the form of stock that can grow over time. I’m a big proponent of like, “Okay, let’s tie this to something.” So, is this something that is for retirement? Is this something that they could apply towards the debt, towards the education? What’s your thought with regard to—how would you approach it? How to utilize that for the goals that the Andersons have?
[00:18:08] RL: Yeah. So restricted stock units, for those who aren’t aware, are a form of compensation when a company gives you stock, but you have to invest into it, right? Generally it comes in with the grant where it says, “Hey, you’re going to get this many shares.” Then, you’ll get a portion of it every year or quarter or month depending on the policy. It’s really like golden handcuffs. It’s a way for a company to make sure that you’re not going to want to leave. “Hey, here’s this money, but you have to stay here to get it.” Yeah, you may want to leave, but you have some invested RSU grants that you’re not going to be able to get if you leave right now. So you should probably just stay with us.
One of the things that I like to make sure clients understand is that these RSUs are just income, right? It’s taxed as income when you get it and you need to treat it as such. Although it looks like this big shiny object that we have to save and grow forever, it is just income and we can use it as such. So when we look at them, their big goals are, “Hey, I want to pay for college. Hey, I want to make sure we retire. Hey, I want to have less debt.” We want to help them, again, rack and stack those goals where sure, if we need that money for college, then it’s there, right? But if we can find out a plan for college, “Okay, cool. Let’s check that off, the boys understand what we have for them. The boys are going to come up with their own plan and it’s going to be financially settled.”
Okay, retirement. How can we use this money toward retirement? We could reorganize our cash flow, when we’re actually cashing out. Some of these are issues which would allow us to put more away in our retirement buckets. That’s a great way to use it. Another way is to solve that fourth goal. These are issues again. It’s just a taxable investment account. We have an unknown what the capital gains are, so we’re not sure, in this scenario, exactly how much of that is the grant itself and how much that is gained.
There will be some tax complications of this plan, but the $125,000 could, in reality, pay off all of their debt other than the mortgage. We can pay off the HELOC, which is $43,000 at 5 percent. We could pay off the cars at 3.5 and 4.5 percent. We could pay off the student loans at 4.5 percent. Then all they would have left is the mortgage that would free up $2,300 in cash flow on a monthly basis—
[00:20:04] TB: It is huge.
[00:20:05] RL: That’s huge, that’s a huge amount of money, okay. That could then turn around and immediately go towards extra savings, extra travel budget for that graduation trip they want to take in two years, extra 401K contributions. Right now, they’re doing 4 percent plus a 4 percent match. We could easily get that to ten or 12 percent without changing their life at all, only by reallocating those RSU dollars that are just sitting in a holding to this thing. We also know that she’s getting more RSUs, so this isn’t the end of her getting company stock. She’s going to get those refreshed, which is what happens when you get a new grant all the time. So as long as she’s still working, those grants are going to keep coming. We just want to make sure we’re using them appropriately.
They’re just sitting there, maybe they’re growing, they’re doing phenomenally, maybe they’re going down. We got to check the company trajectory, but using that to solve an immediate goal, like get out of debt and save for retirement would be a huge lift on somebody’s spirit. Having done that with clients in the past, taking those dollars that you feel are being wasted and putting them to something that you actually feel pain over, is huge.
[00:21:05] TB: Yeah. I think one of the things that I would want to unpack. I love all of the different avenues to go, potential pot of money, the RSUs, which is, like you said, another form of compensation. I think the other thing that I would really want to impact with the two of them is to retire in the next ten, 15 years. Is it closer to ten? Is it closer to 15? One of the things that’s going through my RICP coursework that I just thought was astounding was delaying retirement by three to six months is the equivalent of saving 1 percent more for the course of your 30 year career.
Another way to look at is delaying retirement by one month is the equivalent of saving 1 percent more for the final ten years before retirement. One of the big things that I think people get wrong in retirement is when to claim Social Security. Obviously, if you can delay that, you have an income stream for life that follows inflation that’s super valuable. So, are there ways to potentially increase that retirement paycheck? Now, they could look us and we know that this is true, guys. In pharmacies, I only got ten more years left. I’m burning out, I’m not good. Maybe there is the ability to work part time or things like that.
I think to Robert, to your point, being able to model out and move those pieces around to say, “We could use this pot of money and clear all that debt that frees up that cash” is a beautiful thing. But they could also say, “We feel bullish on the company that we want to let it ride and we won’t have the certainty there of cashing out and retiring those debts. Maybe we’ll let it ride for greater upside, but we know that there’s risk there as well.” Super fascinating. The nice thing about this is there are pieces to move here and there’s different scenarios to run. I guess, one question I would have with regard to the protection of the plan. Kelly, what are some things where their insurance related or a state plan and related that you see has some areas of exposure for them?
[00:22:59] KRH: I mean, in general, the insurance looks pretty good. The term 20 years, they just purchased it five years ago. So they’re going to get the kids through college. I know we had talked about this the last time. What amounts make sense of the disability policies? The amount looks reasonable with the 60 percent of income replaced. I would say the own-occupation for two years is a little bit of a question mark or sometimes we see the policies follow an income amount. So is it the income amount? Or is it that owning your own or any occupation? That’s probably something, I’d look at a little further, because we know just with the actuarial data that that can be a bigger problem than [inaudible 00:23:42]. But things look reasonable.
I would say, I would get the estate planning documents updated. So I would get the will double checked and updated, some other things probably have changed, as well over the last six years. I am a fan of having advanced medical directives in place, in terms of retirement. I think one of the statistics in our slide deck is that things happen sooner than we think they might happen at times. On the positive side, if you have an opportunity to retire, great. But sometimes health events, issues, things happen unexpectedly. So having your documents in place is important, and it makes it a lot simpler and less chaotic, especially at this phase. The kids aren’t really old enough to be making decisions, so you do still need to have things in place for sure.
[00:24:38] TB: Yeah. I think obviously that’s one of the often overlooked parts of the financial plan. Unless you’re military, where they force you to do wills and things like that, that’s where you typically see it more frequently. But just making sure that that’s buttoned up and there’s a plan in place for that. I think the other thing that I would probably circle back on. Robert, I would love to hear your thoughts on, is just the overall allocation. Do you think l balance funds—I see that we’re funding the traditional IRA, which see— were in 2035 target date funds, which are in that time frame. Ten to 15 years is still a pretty long time to go, so I’d want to dig deeper into that in terms of what they’re actually invested in.
We know, as we talked over at length in the past, that the allocation console of a lot of things, because if you’re looking at ten years, 20 years-time, typically the stock market, will take care of you. So, how would you look at their investments, particularly with the traditional IRA and maybe some of the allocations that you’re seeing?
[00:25:35] KRH: Yeah. One of the things on the traditional IRA that we need to double check on is, how are these dollars even going in there? Based on the fact that she has a 401K and they make so much money, shouldn’t be qualified for deductible contributions. So we want to make sure that these contributions have been going in undeductable, that they’re not trying to take a deduction on it. Beyond that, having them in a balanced fund doesn’t sound bad.
Most people in the world will believe that balanced means 50/50, but in the finance world it means 60/40, because why would we make sense? So a 60/40 fund on that account isn’t terrible for their age range, but it’s probably a little conservative. To go along with that, the target date 2035 funds, which are just mutual funds aged for a use at 2035, so they decrease in risk over time. Those are probably about the same right now, so about 60/40 at this point in time. I think that that should be probably extended. If they’re going to stay at a target date fund which is not necessarily a bad thing, I’d probably want to extend it closer to that 2045 timeframe to line up more with a normalized retirement.
You don’t actually aim for the year you’re planning to retire. It’s more so you aim for 65 and then that stretches out over your lifetime. It’ll never go to 0 percent investments. It’ll always have something in the market, because if we’re going to live to 100, we can’t just put it all into cash the day we retire. We need to have some risk in there. I think they still need to have a little bit more risk going on. So we want to look at what options they have, what the fees are, what the expenses are, how complex we can make it, but at the very minimum, I’d to maybe take that up to about 80/20 from a risk perspective. We obviously talk to them and make sure that they’re comfortable with that amount, but with their current time horizon, I think that that would still work.
[00:27:10] TB: Yeah, I think it’s asking a clarifying question and maybe digging into – because I think, even all target date funds in this, they aren’t created the same. There’s different allocations that are associated, depending on the year. I think the other thing that I would probably want to look at, just to make sure, is that you could have a balanced fund for the 529, which might be good for Michael’s accounts, but maybe not for Paul’s. Maybe it is Paul’s 14, so he has a couple more years, maybe just looking at that.
As Michael is going to college, we’re not overexposed in equities and we see a crash and then not as much dollars are there. One question, and then we wrap this up, guys. I think one question that I would ask related to the mortgage. They’re 46 and 48, respectively. Based on their refi that happened after what was that? That was in 2015, so we’ll say seven years ago, they had 23 years left on the mortgage.
Kelly, you recently relocated, so maybe get your take on this. Your thoughts on you—whenever says like, we have too much debt. I think Robert did an excellent job of outlining the path, or basically, we can redeploy some of the assets to basically wipe all the debt out, except for the mortgage. My question is this. If I’m mid to late 40s, or 50s, and I have a mortgage that’s going to take me well beyond retirement age, should I be freaking out about that, or what’s your thought? How do you talk clients off the bar to that part?
Because of debt, obviously, this is something that can be a detriment to your retirement paycheck in the future. Walk me through what you guys think in terms of that. It’s like, now I’m 46, I’m 48, we have 23 years left in the mortgage, or that [inaudible 00:28:54].
[00:28:56] KRH: Oh, my gosh. I love this question, because I think it really could be all over the place. I think, well, I feel like, there could be a point-counterpoint, point-counterpoint about this. It is interesting. Off the top of my head, when we do the nest egg, we’re like, okay, the wage replacement ratio, 70 percent of what you’re living on now, because you’re debt-free, you’re not paying into retirement. They’ve said that they want to move. It will be interesting to see if you are downsizing and you’re going to sell the house. Anyhow, that current mortgage debt is not going to be as big of an issue.
I would say, if they’re not moving, ideally, you’d probably like to see it paid off, but it really does come down to cash flow. When we run modeling and looking at retirement and potential for success to reach a very pleasant age of 95, or a 100 and still have resources, it really always comes down to cash flow and budget. What you’re living on per year has a big impact on that. Is the mortgage affordable to make the plan work? It really does depend. It would go in the modeling and scenarios and again, comfort.
I guess, I would lean towards wanting the debt paid off if I wasn’t moving before retirement. Then, we just have that conversation in my house and my spouse is like, “I could live with pain for a couple years, and then we sell it, and we become expats on a Caribbean island.”
It depends, but I do think it does a little bit. Wherever they go with it, Robert, I will love to hear what you add in, too. Before I turn it over to Robert, I would say, too, the other thing about wealth protection, at this stage, this is often when our parents are having stuff going on, too, if their parents are still alive and they have a relationship with some understanding about that. That relationship, hope and expectation is definitely a key part of protection. I’m often surprised at what an overwhelming time that can be. The kids are in college, but the parents have some type of health issue, and that can be stressful as well.
[00:31:20] TB: Which is important to bring up, because it’s not necessarily that Fiona or Roy’s parents would be our clients, but their parents situation can affect the financial plan of our clients. It’s good to get in front of that before—have those hard conversations about who is doing what or providing care, or if they have policies that not left the—cover down on that. Yeah, that’s a huge important point. How about you, Robert, in terms of the debt? 23 years left. I’m in my mid to late 40s. Should I be freaking out about that, or is it depends?
[00:31:51] RL: Specifically for the mortgage, I think, to Kelly’s point there, that two of them in our own household have different vibes on that. That’s one of the key things when we’re talking about this with clients is, mathematically, I can tell you the right answer. Mathematically, it’s interest rate arbitrage. We’re paying 4 percent of the mortgage. We can get 8.50 percent, 80-20 portfolio. We should just put it in the retirement accounts. The emotional variable, I can’t calculate for.
If someone has a money script that tells them that they have to have no mortgage when they retire, because they saw their parents or their grandparents have issues in their life because they had a mortgage tying them down, then that’s something we have to attack. If they’re going to downsize, doesn’t necessarily mean that their mortgage is going to go down. In Florida, are they going to leave a single-family home in New Jersey and move to a very swanky condo, 50s plus condo in Florida where they’re playing shuffleboard with movie stars? Maybe they’re going to be paying more even with less space. Those are some things to work out.
Having that conversation of 4 percent interest rate, although it may have sounded extremely large a year and a half ago, or even six months ago, is really a good rate historically. It’s not going to be the end of the world. It’s a securitized debt, so it’s tied to their house. I would be more worried about the other loans.
[00:33:05] TB: I was going to say the same thing. Probably, even the student loans that have probably just been kicked down the road a bit, I would almost—and this is probably an emotional thing, because I’m sure the—well, we said that the student loans are four and a quarter. Then not much more. I think, and this is more an emotional thing, this is a bias of mine, I’m like, “Let’s retire those loans before we start sending Michael to school,” would be my thought.
It’s a great point is, what is the plan in the future? It’s that arbitrage. Do we emotionally make that extra payment on a 4 percent mortgage, which historically over a 30-year mortgage reduces that by seven years, if you pay that extra payment, or do you put that extra payment more towards the retirement, get a better rate of return over the long-term and secure that?
I don’t know. That’s also another thing that, as Kelly mentioned, in her household, it’s different. It’s different in our household, too. I don’t think it really even registers with, where I’m I in my mind want to have the mortgage paid off as I retire, which in my mind is 70, but I could lose my marbles before that and have to retire sooner. That could be a thing. That’s another thing that people sometimes discount, is that you’re not always in control of when you actually retire, either because of career stuff, or health stuff.
Yeah. I think these are fascinating questions that we’re talking about this on a vacuum, but really go back and ask Fiona, ask Roy, the fake clients that we’re talking about, some clarifying questions about the debt, about the investments, the education and with the retirement picture, I think would be really important to then proceed with the plan.
Again, as we always say, it’s not about necessarily the plan. It’s about planning, because we know the next time we talk, there’s going to be a wrench in the system that’s going to potentially have a zig and zag as we get further along the plan. Guys, anything else to add?
[00:34:52] KRH: No.
[00:34:51] RL: No. I think they’re in a great spot. I think that Fiona and Roy have done a really good job of setting themselves up for success. People always like to say, and I use this phrase all the time, “Money is power.” But money is not power. Options are power. Having the option to do different things, and having the ability to make different plans is powerful. They have put themselves in a place where they have a lot of options going forward, and they can choose what they believe is the best path. The best plan is one that works. As long as it works for them, then they made the right choice.
[00:35:19] TB: Totally agree.
[00:35:20] KRH: If they use the RSUs to buy an RV, we’ll see.
[00:35:24] TB: Don’t do it. Don’t do it. I was talking to the team last night, on our happy hour, that I said $800 RV. It’s actually $1,100. Yeah, they’re a money pit All right. Robert, Kelly, thanks again for talking about the Andersons on our case study here. Looking forward to doing the next one here, in the next couple of months. Yeah, we’ll do it again soon.
[00:35:45] RL: Toodles.
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