YFP 255: Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career with Ashlee Klevens Hayes and Chris Cozzolino

Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career with Ashlee Klevens Hayes and Chris Cozzolino

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomes back to the show Ashlee Klevens Hayes & Chris Cozzolino, two pharmacists and entrepreneurs. Together, they discuss the new book Ashlee and Chris have co-authored: ‘Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career: Real Life Advice from 50+ Pharmacy Leaders and Influencers.’

About Today’s Guests

Ashlee Klevens Hayes

Ashlee Klevens Hayes is a 3rd generation pharmacist who set out on a traditional pharmacy path that turned into so much more. She’s an initiator, a pharmacy entrepreneur, and career strategist. After graduating from The University of Southern California School of Pharmacy she completed a 2-year health system pharmacy administration residency at the University of Kentucky and then took on the position of Associate Director of Central Pharmacy Operations at UK. In 2017, she founded Rx Ashlee, a career development company that focuses on business development, branding, marketing, career pivots, and interview preparation for highly skilled professionals. Shortly after, she launched the Rx Buzz Podcast on the Pharmacy Podcast Network and started with the University of Southern California School of Pharmacy as a career strategist. 

Chris Cozzolino

Chris Cozzolino is a recent pharmacy graduate (Class of 2020) from the University of Iowa and the Co-Founder of Uptown Creation, a B2B Business Development and Consulting Firm. Prior to pharmacy school, Chris founded an Amazon Dropshipping store, which he still has to this day. During his time in pharmacy school, he Co-Founded Uptown Creation. Uptown Creation began as an Instagram Growth and Consulting company but has evolved into a more full-service Business Development Firm. Chris has a passion for business and hopes to merge this with his love for the pharmacy community.

Episode Summary

Many people who graduate from pharmacy school can feel overwhelmed when entering the sector for the first time. Pharmacists often feel that their training and expectations of the field do not match the real-world pharmacy setting. Imagine if you could speak to some of the top people in the industry for advice and guidance to help you on your journey to a successful career. This goal was the object of today’s guests, Ashlee Klevens Hayes and Chris Cozzolino’s new book Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career: Real Life Advice from 50+ Pharmacy Leaders and Influencers. Their new book offers readers a wealth of information that can only be gained from experience, comprising over 50 interviews with respected and successful pharmacists and industry influencers. In this episode, listeners will learn about Chris and Ashlee, why they decided to write a book on the subject, the importance of interpersonal skills to becoming a successful pharmacist, and common traits that limit peoples’ potential. Chris and Ashlee speak about the gaps in what pharmacy school does not prepare you for, typical expectations of the pharmacy world from new practitioners, and how to adjust and find success in the various seasons of your career as a pharmacist.

Key Points From This Episode

• Introduction and a brief background about today’s guests.
• The motivation behind Ashlee’s and Chris’s decision to write a book.
• What Chris’s and Ashlee’s overall goal of writing a book was.
• A brief discussion about the importance of networking to become successful.
• Examples of lessons learned while writing and interviewing people for the book.
• Importance of soft skills to becoming a successful pharmacist.
• How finding measures of success for different seasons of your career is important.
• Common traits Chris and Ashlee noticed hold back people from reaching their full potential.
• Where limiting thoughts come from for pharmacists.
• Strategies that Chris uses to ensure that he is enjoying his current career path.
• Where Chris learned how important enjoying the process is.
• Ashlee explains the importance of mindset and how you see opportunities.
• Chris tells us about his decision to self-publish as opposed to working with a publisher.
• What Ashlee has enjoyed the most from the book writing process.

Highlights

“The goal of the book is really to try to bring out those authentic tidbits that you might not be able to get out of somebody unless you’re speaking to them over dinner or casually and not in a professional setting.” — Chris Cozzolino, PharmD [0:08:46]

“We’re in this limbo, in this transition of going from a very traditional marketplace to a very nontraditional marketplace. That is very scary and intimidating to people who are used to doing one plus one equals always two.” — Ashlee Klevens Hayes, PharmD, MHA, CELDC [0:19:49]

“If you’re able to enjoy getting there just as much as that final destination, I think that’s what happiness is.” — Chris Cozzolino, PharmD [0:22:20]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

• Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career: Real Life Advice from 50+ Pharmacy Leaders and Influencers by Ashlee Klevens Hayes and Chris Cozzolino
• YFP Planning: Financial Planning for Pharmacists
• Schedule a free Discovery Call with YFP Planning
• Insuring Income: Get Quotes and Apply for Term Life and Disability Insurance
• YFP 095: Level Up Your Career: An Interview with RxAshlee
• YFP 228: Why This New Practitioner Decided to Start His Own Business
• Uptown Creation
• RxAshlee
• Influential Dad, Empowered Daughter by Ashlee Klevens Hayes
• Your Financial Pharmacist Disclaimer and Disclosures

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. What if I told you that you could interview 50 or more influential leaders within our profession? That would be incredible, right? Better yet, what if you could compile the key insights from those interviews for ongoing guidance and inspiration?

Doctors Ashlee Klevens Hayes and Chris Cozzolino have created that resource and Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career: Real Life Advice from 50+ Pharmacy Leaders and Influencers. These two leaders, innovators and entrepreneurs have demonstrated individually, how to own your PharmD, own your career. They have walked the walk, and while sharing their own insights and tips would produce a much needed resource, they decided instead to share the stage with some great minds in our profession.

[00:00:51] TU: Before we jump into the show and I talk with Ashlee and Chris about their book, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40 plus states. YFP Planning offers fee only high touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning, financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacies achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor and then we’ll jump into my interview with Ashlee and Chris.

This week’s podcast episode is brought to you by Insuring Income. Insuring Income is your source for all things term, life insurance and own occupation disability insurance. Insuring Income has a relationship with America’s top rated term life insurance and Disability Insurance Company, so pharmacists like you can easily find the best solutions for your personal situation. To better serve you. Insuring Income reviews all applicable carriers in the marketplace for your desired coverage, supports clients in all 50 states and make sure all of your questions get answered. 

To get quotes and apply for term life or disability insurance, see sample contract from disability carriers or learn more about these topics. Visit insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist. Again that’s insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:29] TU: Chris and Ashlee welcome.

[00:02:30] AKH: What’s up?

[00:02:32] CC: Excited to be here. 

[00:02:34] TU: Both of you have been in front of the YFP community before, Ashlee way back when on episode 95 of the YFP podcast, Chris more recently on episode 28, but I don’t want to assume that folks know all the great things that you’re working on and who you are. So Chris, let’s start with you. Tell us a little bit more about yourself, your background into pharmacy and the work that you’re currently doing. 

[00:02:57] CC: Yeah. My name’s Chris Cozzolino. I’m based in Iowa City, Iowa. I went to the University of Iowa for pharmacy school and graduated in 2020. I’m not currently practicing as a pharmacist, but while I was in pharmacy school in college, I was able to build a social media marketing business that does a lot of work with direct outreach and scheduling sales appointments for sales teams and business development reps. So that’s where my path is right now and really being in the thick of starting conversations with people, meeting people and doing things like this. 

[00:03:31] TU: Awesome –

[00:03:33] AKH: You can’t say that you’re not a practicing pharmacist. You are.

[00:03:39] CC: I mean, I’m licensed and everything, so I can go practice at any point of time, but yeah.

[00:03:43] TU: That’s what I always tell Chris, my family and friends when they ask me a pharmacy question. I say, “You need to go talk to your local pharmacy.” 

[00:03:51] AKH: Yes. Exactly. 

[00:03:53] TU: How about for you? Tell us more about your background and the work that you’re doing now.

[00:03:58] AKH: Sure. I graduated pharmacy school a long time ago now. Then I did, I went to USC, so University State of California then I went to University of Kentucky. I was the first admin resident there. I think, it’s Health System Pharmacy, HSP. I don’t know. We didn’t have the lingo when I was back in residency, so I did that for a couple of years. Then I stayed on as the Operations Director of Bureaucratic Services. Then I transitioned to working for a medical device, pharmaceutical, a blend of a medical device at pharmaceutical company where I got this entrepreneurial mindset of why people are in pharma and they’re not pharmacists. I was confused. I didn’t know that existed. I thought you had to be a clinician to be in healthcare.

I worked for that company as an internal consultant for a couple of years, and then they ended up selling to a large pharmaceutical company and my position was severed in that transition in that purchase. For the first time in my career, I had a six month old daughter. I was the breadwinner. We were moving from Kentucky back to California, and I lost my job. It was a terrible situation, but it was the first time that I had the opportunity to take a step back and ask myself, what did I want to do with my career? What does success mean to me? How can I support my family, but still be around and how can I bring all of my different skillsets into just a different career?

With the blend of my pharmacy background, my business background, my operations background, I started RX Ashlee six years ago as a career strategist, and since then I’ve helped over 5000 pharmacies and mostly pharmacists, I would say 75% pharmacies and 25% health care professionals really thrive in their careers. That entails one-on-one services, keynote speaking engagements, workshops, seminars, webinars, podcast like this and then stuff like the little books that we get to write every once in a while, that Chris and I partnered in. So that’s been my our recent most fun passion project.

[00:06:03] TU: Six years with RX. Ashlee, where’s time gone? That’s wild. Yeah.

[00:06:08] AKH: I know, I mean, the first year or two, was my side hustle. It was definitely more of a let’s dabble in this and see where it goes. Then stuff got real once things started picking up and people were happy and clients are happy and that was happy and my husband was happy, I was like, all right, let’s see where this goes. So now it’s been it’s been amazing and I’m super grateful.

[00:06:29] TU: Why not? I’m sure this both with you before and I wholeheartedly mean, I have a ton of respect for both of you in terms of the work that you’ve done professionally of what I know of you guys personally. I think the value that you’re bringing to the profession of pharmacy is really inspiring to me. I know it’s having an impact on others. So we’re talking here today. Got my copy right here of your book that you guys recently launched, which is Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career: Real Life Advice From 50+ Pharmacy Leaders and Influencers, when Chris and Ashlee get together to collaborate on a book, I’m going to read it. Others should read it. There’s some great advice in here.

My first question here, and Chris I’ll kick it off with you is, you both are busy running your own businesses. Obviously you’ve got personal commitments as well, so why write a book? What inspired and led you to ultimately take on the task of putting this resource together? 

[00:07:23] CC: Yeah. I think obviously Ashlee and I both like having our hands in pharmacy and Ashlee is a lot more on the forefront working with pharmacists on a daily basis, whereas I don’t get as much time to do that. Since I knew that I made it a goal of mine to make sure to stay active in the pharmacy community and be able to bring value from what my other passions are with business and entrepreneurship. There’s so many influencers in traditional entrepreneurship that spew the same messages that, if you’re in that ecosystem, you hear them over and over again, but if you’re not, you’ve probably never heard a lot of the even the clichés like, probably the most you’ve heard is your network is your network, which everybody here is it networking conferences. 

There’s so many other tidbits from the entrepreneurship world and those influencers that have made my life a lot better to being able to bridge that into pharmacy. I’ve realize that a lot of other people gain value from that. Then on a secondary note, really wanting to tap into the brains of other people and take advantage of my ability as an extrovert to connect with people, have conversations and know that you can’t really pick at somebody’s brain unless you are talking to them or have a more real connection with them. 

The goal of the book is really to try to bring out those authentic tidbits that you might not be able to get out of somebody unless you’re speaking to them over dinner or casually and not in a professional setting.

[00:08:59] TU: Yeah, that’s what I love about it. You can read it front to back if you want, and I think have a lot of takeaway, but also can sit on the desk and you can periodically have it as a source of inspiration. I hope, as I wrote as a challenge to folks in the forward to take advantage of the network that is inside of this book, right? Well, one of the things that and I know you guys have experienced this as well, when I talk with student pharmacists and even new practitioners and they’re talking boldly about ideas that they have, and they’re all energized, which is awesome. I said, “Hey, have you talked to so-and-so or have you thought about connecting with so-and-so?” There’s almost this fear that people are untouchable out there, that those are those people doing those things.

I’ve never run across a pharmacist that hasn’t been willing or another individual, especially if a connection can be made that isn’t willing to spend a few moments to share some wisdom advice, encouragement, and to connect you with someone else as well. I hope folks will take the advice that’s here, but also take it as an opportunity to connect with other individuals in the book.

[00:10:00] AKH: We just did that before the call, too. I mean, you guys, Tim, jumped on, said, “Hey, Chris, Ashlee is going to meet this person, you got to meet this person.” Then that is a trail of just amazing connections. You never know where it’s going to take you.

[00:10:13] TU: One of things I love about the way that you guys wrote this is that certainly the individuals that are here, it’s a diverse group of individuals, impressive titles and impressive accomplishments. I think what is most important is the insights into why they’ve been successful.

[00:10:29] AKH: Right.

[00:10:29] TU: I think that we can get hung up in a professional field that is highly credentialed of the number of letters we have after our name, and what titles we have. But what is it individually that has allowed those folks to be successful? As you guys distill the advice of these leaders, the 50+ individuals that are in this book. Chris, I’ll start with you. Did anything surprise you from the responses that came forward? 

[00:10:54] CC: Yeah. I think it surprised me, but it makes a lot of sense looking back in hindsight. The biggest thing probably being that so much of the advice is very human advice and not necessarily profession, specific, while there are going to be those professions specific tidbits. It’s much more of the stuff that you don’t get by being a pharmacist. I think as pharmacists, we all go through so much training and that’s your day-to-day and everything. You’re so in the thick of it that being able to hear advice that goes bigger and beyond, just pharmacy as a profession, but more life advice and just profession advice. It’s still relative to healthcare, but has a bigger impact. 

[00:11:40] TU: Yeah, there’s a vulnerability in the responses that I saw come through and into your comment earlier. That’s a lot of conversations over coffee to get that type of information that’s really here in one resource, but I was impressed with the vulnerability that came through and the responses and the humility that also came through and the responses. You can tell at least one of the themes I took away was a huge self-awareness among the individuals. So despite the success, despite the accomplishments, there’s great awareness into what has shaped them into the person and the leader that they are, but also what are the areas that they continue to improve upon to get better. I think that humility is really refreshing to read and to see as a team in the book. Ashlee, any significant takeaways for you?

[00:12:24] AKH: Well it’s interesting, because I train people on how to have humility and how to practice self-awareness every single day. When I saw the responses, I was like, “Yes, this is meat and potatoes that I’m trying to get into pharmacy practice.” It wasn’t necessarily surprising to me. It was more on par to what I believe in. It’s just nice that people are talking about it, because when I started blogging, when I started giving keynotes to pharmacists six or seven years ago, it was a very uncomfortable space, I think. People are, “Wow, you’re so brave. We’re talking about this.” It’s like, this is normal stuff. Why aren’t people talking about relationships, about marriages, about how to have a family, how to go through traumas in your life like divorce and still maintain a successful career?

When I started seeing these conversations pop up within some of the dialog and the conversations that we were having with the people who contributed to the book, I was like, “Thank you for just being open and honest and real.” Because I don’t think we – especially coming out of pharmacy school, I think you’re in this little bit of a bubble, not a little bit. You are in a bubble of what’s to be expected in the pharmacy world. Then you get into it and you’re like, “Wait a minute. No one told me about this stuff.”

Then I to say every level comes with a new double, so just because, I gave an example of just a recent grad, but ten years out, 20 years out, 30 years out, 40, 50 years out. Every season comes with a different challenge. A lot of the people that we brought into the book talked about the different seasons.

[00:14:02] TU: Yeah. Ashlee, every level comes with the new dev. I’m going to quote that for here. That’s a good one –

[00:14:07] AKH: I don’t know, if that’s me quote or I’ve learned it from somewhere else. So sorry, if someone else said it, but I just remember, I’ve been saying that a lot lately, because I’m in a different season of my life than I was ten years ago. I think no one told me to prepare for that. I think it’s really important for the readers or for people listening to understand to finding success at different, different seasons in your career is really important.

[00:14:29] TU: 100%. One of the things that really has hit me across the head over the last couple of years, but I would say has been a journey really over the last decade is I’m slowly realizing more and more that my mindset as I think about our business, what we’re working on and trying to transform the financial wellness of the pharmacist workforce. The greatest contribution that I can bring to our business to achieve the vision and the mission that we have is the mindset that I bring to see the potential of who we are and who we can become. 

There’s a whole lot and I’m covering that of what are the limitations that someone puts upon themselves, where did those come from? How do we advance through the next level or bust through the next ceiling? Why does that ceiling even exist in the first place? There’s just so much to uncover there, but those are things in pharmacy school you’re not even thinking about and you start to see whether people use mindset, those words or not. That to me came through loud and clear in this book was the development of it. I get to talk with pharmacists everyday. 

One of my greatest joys is when I get to talk with an individual that has a spark of an idea or has something creative they want to pursue. They just need a little push or a little bit of nudge, because they have a lot of self-doubts and fears and anxieties and a lot of things that it’s prevented them from moving forward with that idea and they need some challenging encouragement. So my question here related to that is, for many pharmacists to feel like, “Hey, I may not be the living to my full potential, I feel there’s something else that might be there. What did you take away as you compile this as one or two things that are often holding back pharmacies from really living to that full potential?

[00:16:11] CC: Yeah. I think the big one is fear of the unknown, just with the personality types that are in pharmacy and health care. We like structure. We like things that are known. It’s a little bit more difficult for us to push ourselves out of our comfort zones. I think for one, fear of losing a job or letting somebody down in your work, which from my experience, seeing other pharmacists, most pharmacists aren’t even close to the point of letting people down, but they’re still working vigorously to not let anybody down.

I think that so to take that a little bit further, the knowledge that you can always get another job, you can always take a year off and your life is going to be pretty much the same. That’s outside of having financial responsibilities. You need to be able to cover those financial responsibilities. But even if it’s you need to go part time to do some self-discovery, still make the money that you can support yourself, your family, your loved ones, but take the time to explore something else.

I don’t think anybody’s going to regret doing that if they’re able to have the conviction to take a leap of faith to do whatever that thing is or explore whatever that new area is. It doesn’t have to be outside of pharmacy, it could be just another roll in pharmacy or another area of pharmacy that is of interest to you. It’s never too late, which is such a cliche thing. I mean, it’s true.

[00:17:44] AKH: There’s a lot of people that talk about that in the book.

[00:17:46] TU: That fear of not letting other people down. I think you’re on to something there. Not to say thats unique to pharmacists, but I see that a lot inside of our profession like what is that? Where does that come from? Chris, I think your comment is spot on. It’s so far from that, right? But it can be paralyzing and it can be crippling when you’re operating each day with that fear. Not that I’m expecting you guys, but the crystal ball answer on this, but where does that come from? Why is that?

[00:18:15] AKH: Again, similar to what you said Tim, like this isn’t just a pharmacist thing that if I speak to pharmacists and I am a pharmacist and I’ve been around pharmacists, my best friends are pharmacists. I feel like I live, breathe and eat pharmacy, but I feel we think that we had to have it figured out. I feel like a lot of the people I work with have to know precisely what the next step is going to look like similar to what Chris said. I get the sense that we need a checklist, that we need one plus one always equals two. I mean, there’s no other way around it, right? There’s no gray. 

In this ecosystem, in this non-traditional career marketplace, this gig economy, this crazy 2022 world, it’s just not as black and white as it used to be. So, my God, I’m a third generation pharmacist. So when my grandfather graduated he opened up a pharmacy and he did well. Then my dad graduated and he opened a pharmacy, but then he also had all these other gigs going on, and he had a pension plan, and he didn’t have student loans. His first car was a Porsche, like life was not terrible for him.

My experience was completely different. I have student loans. I do not have a Porsche. One day I will. My career has been really windy and I’ve been out for ten, 11, 12 years. I’ve had multiple different roles and not, because of anything other than advancing my career, but also wanting to do different things. I have different passions. I have different experiences, I have different skillsets. I think what happened is we’re in this limbo, in this transition of going from a very traditional marketplace to a very non-traditional marketplace. That is very scary and intimidating to people who are used to doing one plus one equals always two. 

There’s no specific checklist, and that’s a lot of what the book talks about. That’s a lot of what I work on with my clients of, it takes time, but it actually pans out. It’s going to work out. So I think we’re just scared of that in limbo stage, if not knowing what looks like next.

[00:20:17] TU: Yeah. I was thinking about this a lot recently, Ashlee, and messy and non-linear, the words that keep coming in mind, and that is if we think back to our educational experience, it was clean and linear. 

[00:20:26] AKH: Totally. 

[00:20:29] TU: Messy and non-linear I think is where the magic happens. It can be painful like –

[00:20:34] AKH: Very painful.

[00:20:35] TU: It can be uncomfortable, but I think that’s where a lot of the self-discovery happens is in the messy and the non-linear. I think that when I read folks responses in the book that you can see that self-discovery, you can see that journey that the folks have been on. It wasn’t what they thought it was going to be at the beginning, typically.

[00:20:54] AKH: No.

[00:20:54] TU: Right.

[00:20:55] AKH: No, no way.

[00:20:55] TU: Which is exciting, I think. I want to give people a flavor of the book, and I’m going to do that by putting you guys on the hot seat with some your own responses. In the book, so each of you have a chapter in the book that you wrote similar to other of the 50+ plus leaders that responded. Chris, for the question where, what one piece of career advice would you give to your younger self? You said the following. “Enjoy the process. If you focus on enjoying the journey to your destination rather than fixating on the goal you will be happier. If you don’t want the process, you may not be on the right path.” Easier said than done, right? My question for you is, what strategies have you employed that you’re not just focused on the outcome that may or may not come into the future and it likely, if it does come, is going to be fleeting, but rather your focus on the day-to- day process and really having enjoyment in that. What strategies have you employed for that? 

[00:21:44] CC: I mean, for one, I’m lucky that I’m able to do the things that don’t feel work to me and that spark joy within me. Yeah, that mindset of it, is a little bit of Gary Vaynerchuk and that’s one of the examples of an entrepreneur that a lot of health care and pharmacy people probably haven’t heard of, but spews the same messages that are very relevant. But the concept of enjoying the process and being able to have gratitude for the day-to-day that you’re able to do and you can have lofty goals and have goals that you’re trying to hit. But if you’re able to enjoy getting there just as much as that final destination, I think that’s what happiness is. 

Finding a role, finding a position, finding a lifestyle that is conducive of that definitely takes a lot of trial and error. I don’t think anybody ever figures it out 100%, but trying to get closer to that and just doing the things that are enjoyable. I think again, going back to the ability to self-reflect and know what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are, but more so, what you enjoy doing and what you don’t enjoy doing and how that plays into your day-to-day and how you can structure it to do the things that you don’t enjoy doing. Maybe get those out of the way and then put more effort into the things you do enjoy.

[00:23:08] TU: As I hear you say that, there’s a lot of wisdom in that. I admire that as someone who’s pretty darn early on in their career, where does that wisdom come from? Is that experience? Is that mentorship? Where are you able to get some of that, in terms of enjoying the process? 

[00:23:27] CC: Yeah. I think I’ve always been one to take risks, which I’m lucky to have that affinity to taking risk, which has allowed me to do an entrepreneurial route and taste a bunch of different things to see what I like and inevitably find the things that I enjoy and don’t enjoy. My parents played a big part in it, encouraging me to try different things and being supportive of that. I think having that support system that’s going to be encouraging to you and a base of people that you’re able to bounce ideas off of and like you were saying earlier, Tim, to some extent was having people that you can bounce ideas off of and let them nudge you in the right direction. It’s probably going to be the direction you’re already headed, but there’s a lot to be said about just somebody giving you that affirmation that it’s okay to do this thing that you’re thinking about. It’s not going to burn down everything that you’ve worked for. 

[00:24:25] TU: It’s okay to go down the messy non-linear path, right? It’s okay. It’s okay. Great stuff. I appreciate that. Ashlee, one of the questions that you responded to and what advice would you share with the pharmacy friend who feel stuck in their current role and burntout? You gave several responses, but one of those responses, you said, “Burnout and feeling stuck are not the same thing. Burnout means you need a break, need tighter boundaries, and might need to refocus on your priorities. Feeling stuck is a feeling of a fixed mindset. Change the way you look at opportunities. It will change your life.” If Ashlee says it’s going to change your life, I’m going to listen. So what do you mean by the fixed mindset and what do you mean about changing the way you look at opportunities?

[00:25:08] AKH: Yeah. I like that answer. It’s been a while. I’ve had a whole pregnancy in between my answers and today. I like it. The fixed mindset versus, I can’t recall the stuff in my head, who talked about it. It was Stanford faculty professor who coined this many years ago, a psychiatrist. The fix-mindset versus the growth-mindset is the growth-mindset just loves feedback, loves to change, loves adapting, loves getting constructive support, loves improving. Whereas the fix-mindset is, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, change is rough. I don’t really want to know about other things. I want to just stay on this path. Someone just needs to tell me how to fix a few things, and then I’m going to do it, and then it’s going to be fixed. 

I get the sense that a lot of clients in the past have been down that fixed-mindset and only believe that they are capable of doing very limited things. It’s very challenging for me to convince them, that’s not my job to convince them, but I do try to encourage them with convincing them with data of, listen, you have so many opportunities in front of you, you have to actually believe that what’s capable for yourself. I can’t sit here and tell you what is capable despite the data, despite the facts, despite showing you percentages and just showing you other people’s LinkedIn profiles, other people’s CV’s, it doesn’t matter. You have to actually believe that there’s other opportunities for you. 

I think a lot of pharmacies get stuck in that, “No, I have a B or an RPH, and this is just what my life is going to be. I’m going to be counting pills forever.” I’ve never had that, so to some degree, I have a hard time connecting with those people too, because I’m like, “Wait, why do you think there’s so many opportunities here? Go here, go LinkedIn, go look at all these different people, all across the world doing really radical life changing things with the same accolades and the same degrees that we have.

[00:27:04] TU: Yeah. I think to that point, if one can’t visualize what could be and if one can’t affirm themselves in that role or that being possible for them, that’s going to come through and how you approach every day. If you do end up pursuing a career change or a job interview, or you’re going to pursue all of it with that fixed-mindset as you’re describing it.

[00:27:25] AKH: Don’t give me wrong. Self-doubt, it’s definitely, it’s still there. 

[00:27:29] TU: 100%.

[00:27:30] AKH: It’s okay to have somewhat limiting beliefs. It’s okay to have, I don’t like to say imposter syndrome, but it’s okay to not feel like you’re good enough. You have to commit to taking steps to get through that mindset. It’s for me it’s taken many, many, many years. I’m still working on it. There’s still things that freak me out that I’m like there’s no way I’m going to do that. There’s no way that people will do that with me either. I think if you have courage and if you have like Chris said, the right people around you and just a tad bit of strategy that I love teaching. I think that’s what matters the most.

[00:28:03] TU: I love it. Great, great stuff, you guys. Chris, for those that are listening that want to publish their own book, it’s something I hear a lot among pharmacists and other health care professionals as a goal that they have. Talk to us more about the process that you guys went through –

[00:28:19] AKH: Me just tagging him.

[00:28:20] TU: Why self-publish versus working with the publisher to tell us more about that journey. 

[00:28:25] CC: Yeah. Ashlee, was definitely my guide on this.

[00:28:31] AKH: No, it was just more like, “Chris. I need this. Chris need that.”

[00:28:34] CC: Since she had already gone through the process, she knew the buttons to press, technically to do the publishing. One takeaway is that the actual route of getting words once you have them into book form isn’t that difficult. The hardest part is obviously getting the words there in the first place. If something’s stopping you, because you don’t know how difficult it’s going to be to self-publish that is very achievable. Again, Ashlee did a lot of the legwork on that, but from what I’ve seen and the way that she’s spoken about it, I know that it’s very doable and it was quicker than what I had even expected after we got in the words on the paper. But that was the part of the process that was the most time consuming and then editing and refining and making it tell the narrative that you wanted to tell in the format that you want to do that in. 

Which I think goes into, why we wrote the book the way that we did. A big point that Ashlee and I both feel is that we’re stewards of the book since we have our passages, but then there’s also 50+ people that have their passages as well. It’s just as much their book as it is ours, which is for one of the reasons why we’re looking into making partnerships with organizations like AMCP to be able to donate any of the profits from the book to support student pharmacists and use this as not a vector that brings a ton to Ashlee and myself, but more of a way that it can be an evergreen novel and ever-evolving advice that is for the profession of pharmacy and that it’s as simple as that and not for anybody else.

[00:30:27] AKH: Yeah, and just to piggyback off that, Chris and I met four years ago on LinkedIn, I think, or some social media –

[00:30:33] CC: Yeah.

[00:30:34] AKH: We actually got to meet in person at AMCP. I was giving a keynote and Chris was a student. Tim, going back to your question of Chris, how have you become so wise and where does this come from? I plucked him out from the group and I could tell early on that he’s really smart, but also he’s a very, very good heart and really good intentions. Those are my favorite kind of people. So we’ve kept in touch over the years, and I’ve always begged Chris, to do some type of collaboration with me. I was like, “Let’s just do something we both love pharmacy and we both want to give back.”

Finally I told him, I was like, “Chris, I’m pregnant. It is done. We have to do it now or it’s never going to happen.” He promised me that we would do something before that in my pregnancy, and it’s coming, so we did it right in time. It was just the best project, Chris and then I couldn’t have asked for a better, more supportive partner to do this with. It’s been fun.

[00:31:32] TU: I love it, because I think that from my experiences while writing, when you find the right co-author and the right person in your jiving on the same page, it really is a rewarding experience. There’s accountability of course, it comes as a benefit. Ashlee, you’ve been through this before, you authored, Influential Dad, Empowered Daughter. We’ll be waiting for book number three.

[00:31:52] AKH: My goal is to write, once you get writing –

[00:31:55] TU: Fun.

[00:31:55] AKH: Well personally, my personal experience is once you get writing. I blogged for several years before this, so it’s not I’m a new writer-ish. Writing a book is totally different mindset, but once you get the bug, and once you see the impact, and once you see your contribution to the universe, and how people are writing to you from all over the world, and just how much you’ve touched them, how much you’ve challenged them, how much you’ve changed their perspective. Connections, the especial with this book, there’s a lot of people who are reading the book and then going out and connecting with all the different leaders and all different influencers, which is the goal of the book. 

It really just for me personally, it motivates me to keep going. So I’m in the process even though Chris and I just published our last book, I don’t know, a couple of weeks ago. I already have a new book in mind. I already – my goal is to write it off open which I’m really, let’s see if that happens. Hold me accountable, Chris. For me, it’s like a bug. It’s like how can I help more people and how can I share my niche and my expertise with more people? Because again, like Chris said, once you write one, you understand the technicalities.

Now going the other route, the publisher getting a book agent doing all that, I’ve never done, but it is on my bucket list, but self-publishing is honestly just it’s for me personally, it’s been really valuable just to get your word into the world.

[00:33:17] TU: I love that. I would encourage both of you, because I feel very strongly that when you’re writing or sharing in another medium in a way that’s having an impact on others, you have a responsibility to keep doing it, if it’s having an impact. So I look forward to continuing to follow both of you in the journey. For folks that want to pick up a copy of Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career: Real Life Advice from 50+ Pharmacy Leaders and Influencers, you can pick it up on Amazon. Chris, Ashlee, thank you both so much for not only putting this together, but also for coming on and having this discussion. I appreciate your time.

[00:33:52] AKH: Yeah. Tim, we didn’t really talk about your foreword. I mean, you wrote a great foreword, too, for us. When Chris and I started working on the book, I was like, “Tim has to be person.” Then you guys officially met and Chris and I were like, “Oh, yeah, Tim’s definitely – ” You have such a great voice in the profession and you’re such an advocate and I mean, you fit right in with all of these other interviewers that we’ve been doing, and we both just really admire your work and appreciate the opportunity to connect with you. Thanks for taking the time to write such a great foreword. It was powerful. Even if you just read the foreword, I thought, I was like, “Oh, my gosh, this is really good.” So it was good.

[00:34:25] TU: Well, thanks for the opportunity. I was humbled to be able to do it, so it’s fun to be a part of it. Again, read it when it all came together. Congratulations to you guys and thanks again for joining.

[00:34:35] AKH: Thank you.

[00:34:35] CC:  Thanks for having us. 

[OUTRO]

[00:34:36] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, let’s hear an important message from our sponsor, Insuring Income. If you are in the market to add own occupation disability insurance, term life insurance or both. Insuring Income would love to be a resource. Insuring Income has relationships with all of the high quality disability insurance and life insurance carriers you should be considering and can help you design coverage to best protect you and your family.

Head over to insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist or click on their link in the show notes to request quotes, ask a question or start down your own path of learning more about this necessary protection. 

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information to the podcasts and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. 

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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