On Episode 60 of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, Tim Ulbrich, Founder of Your Financial Pharmacist, interviews Brianne Porter, a new practitioner and faculty member at The Ohio State University College of Pharmacy, all about her journey of going into more than $220,000 of student loan debt, the plan she has put together to pay off this debt and the lessons she has learned along the way.
About Today’s Guest
Brianne Porter, PharmD, MS is Assistant Professor of Pharmacy Practice at The Ohio State University College of Pharmacy. She is primarily responsible for co-coordinating and teaching in Integrated Pharmacotherapy 1 and 2. Her research interests include community practice advancement and the scholarship of teaching and learning. In addition to her position with the college, she moonlights with a local independent pharmacy to bring those skills and experiences to the classroom. Brianne is actively engaged in APhA, serving as the Chair of the NPN Education Standing Committee, AACP, and OPA. She is passionate about community pharmacy practice and about getting students excited about and prepared for upcoming changes in community pharmacy practice.
Mentioned on the Show
- YFP Student Loan Course
- YFP Facebook Group
- Seven Figure Pharmacist by Tim Ulbrich, PharmD and Tim Church, PharmD
Episode Transcript
Tim Ulbrich: So Brianne, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me.
Brianne Porter: Thanks for having me, Tim.
Tim Ulbrich: So excited for this recording, and I’m pumped up about your journey, and as I mentioned to you before we jumped onto the recording, we’ve done several debt-free episodes, but I think what I’m really excited about is your willingness to share your story as you’re really in the thick, in the weeds of this journey of paying off student loan debt. And you and I had a chance to meet all the way back — I think it was actually at AACP we met for the first time. Is that correct?
Brianne Porter: Yeah. It’s been a couple years.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. So at the time, you were just starting your fellowship — and we’ll talk a little bit more about your career journey and so forth — but your fellowship at Ohio State along with your Master’s degree. And at the time, I didn’t know anything about your financial journey. So I’ve learned more along the way, I know you’ve attended a couple presentations we’ve done, we’ve talked a little bit about student loan repayment strategies and options, and what I know from your story is that you obviously had a moment of conviction, an “Aha!” moment where you said, ‘There’s got to be a better way to do this.’ And I don’t know where that “Aha!” moment came from, but I’m excited to learn that on the recording and this episode today. So before we jump in to the details of your story, I first want to say thank you for your willingness to come on the show, for your willingness to be vulnerable with our listeners, and I’m confident that your story is going to inspire action from others in the community. So in advance, thank you for that.
Brianne Porter: Sure.
Tim Ulbrich: OK, so let’s jump all the way back — if I have my facts correct — all the way back, you graduated from pharmacy school at The Ohio State University in 2014. And it’s my understanding at that point, you had no student loan debt prior to starting pharmacy school. So you graduated in 2014, but prior to starting pharmacy school, you had no student loan debt. Is that correct?
Brianne Porter: Yeah, that’s correct.
Tim Ulbrich: So how did you manage to get through undergrad debt-free? Tell us a little bit about that story.
Brianne Porter: Yeah, so I was really fortunate. I actually went to undergrad at Ohio University in Athens. And I was really fortunate to get a scholarship that not only paid full tuition for four years, but it also covered my living expenses, I got a stipend in the summer to do some experiences, go travel and do some different things, and so really, when I was an undergraduate, during my undergraduate studies, all I really had to worry about was spending money. I had a job, and I made money, and I had spending money. But really, I didn’t have to think about what college cost or anything like that. I was really living a pretty good life at that point. I was very fortunate.
Tim Ulbrich: So you’re crushing it through undergrad, you’ve got scholarships, you have no student loan debt, so I guess one of the upsides of this story is it could be worse, right, if you had undergraduate student loan debt that was accumulating. So fast forward then, you graduate with your PharmD in 2014, tell us a little bit about your total debt load at the point of graduation. And then take us through your decision, your journey, in the postgraduate training and fellowship and ultimately why you decided to defer your loans through that period.
Brianne Porter: Sure. So I feel like this is the reason I reached out to you, Tim, is because as I’m looking back on this time and thinking about decisions I was making, I’m thinking, oh my gosh, how many people probably are making those same decisions. Like, please, let me help stop you from doing this. But yeah, basically, whenever I started pharmacy school, I’m going to go back even a little further because I think this part’s kind of important for the students listening. But when I started pharmacy school, because I had that experience in undergrad, I don’t think that I was very intentional. And I know we’ve talked about intentionality before, but I was not intentional at all about thinking about how much money I needed. I’d had four years paid for, and I think because I didn’t have any responsibility for my undergraduate education that I wasn’t really thinking about what it actually cost to go to college. And I had the same mindset that everyone has, which is that I’m going to graduate, I’m going to be making $100,000+ a year, I’ll be able to pay those off in no time, it’s no big deal. So every semester, whenever I did my applications for the student loans, I would just get like an offer. Like, ‘You’ve been offered this much. Accept all, or enter a different amount.’ And I think that if one slight change would have just been instead of offering me the max amount, they would have just had a blank and said, ‘How much do you need?’ I probably would have been more intentional, right? But you know, being a student and being fairly irresponsible at the time, I basically just rationalized in my own mind, well, I know what tuition is, and I know that I need to cover living expenses, and this is the first time I’ve lived alone. I live in a city, I’ve always lived in small towns, so instead of really thinking through or trying to estimate those costs, I just thought, you know what, I’m going to need it. Pharmacy school’s going to be stressful enough as it is, I’m just going to take the max amount. I’ll be able to pay it back, no problem. So I went through that, and even through school, I mean, I worked all through school. And I, again, used that money for maybe joining organizations or spending money or whatever else I needed. I mean, I had a car break down at one point. So like, it was kind of like an emergency fund, so to speak, as a student. And I think that even throughout those four years, it never really dawned on me like what this payment would look like whenever it came in, even that $160,000, which is what I graduated with. But even thinking about that total number, it never dawned on me like, how much money is that actually going to be out of my paycheck? And how hard would I work for that paycheck, you know? I felt very comfortable with that, oddly enough. But I had $160,000 of debt, and I was very comfortable with that.
Tim Ulbrich: Mmhmm.
Brianne Porter: But then I decided very last minute, I made a rash decision to apply for residency. And I was very lucky I matched, but at that point, I hadn’t really thought through the financial aspect of that. So when I was finishing pharmacy school, I had already accepted a job with Target, and I was going to be making about $120,000 at the time a year. And so even with that $160,000, I was like, well, I’m going to make $120,000. I’ll pay it off in a few years, no problem. Which is a funny joke now. But then whenever I matched for residency, I thought, oh my gosh, I’m going to be making like a third of what I was going to be making, what I was planning to make, so now I’m going to have more expenses with travel to conferences and different things. What am I going to do? And just a side note — I think it’s kind of funny how as a resident, we think we’re so poor. I think because we compare to what the pharmacists make, but if you think about it, people raise their families on significantly less than what we make as a resident. So I wish that I would have that moment of realization back then to know that, yes, you can very easily live on this much money. And yes, you can very easily make payments on your loans with this much money. But again, I think I was really good at talking myself into deferring or talking myself into I need more money because I just didn’t have that appreciation for my undergrad. So fast forward three years, I completed a PGY1 and then a two-year fellowship and a Master’s. And luckily, the Master’s was included in the fellowship, so I really did only have one degree to pay for, which is kind of sad that I landed at $224,000 with just one degree out of three that I have. But regardless, I finished my postgraduate training in 2017 and then suddenly, I got the final statement of $224,000. And that was a little more sobering, I think. That was a lot of money.
Tim Ulbrich: And I think that speaks to, you know, a few things that really stand out to me that I hope current students pick up on. I think your initial description of the process in which you borrow money — it’s very easy, almost like it begs you to take all that you need, right? And for cost of living and other things. And I think really taking a step back and saying, to your point, if this were a blank slate, and I really did my budget and did the math, what would I actually need and how can I minimize as much as possible what I’m borrowing because at the end of the day, an unsubsidized loan — as obviously you have experienced firsthand — an unsubsidized loan, that interest is accruing all the while that you’re in school. And so the other big takeaway for me is if there’s current residents, new practitioners listening — and I know certainly you’re not alone in this, Brianne — is deferment is real in terms of the impact it can have. And for you, obviously that went from $160,000 to $224,000 because of three years of deferment. And one of the things I always encourage resident or new graduates to think about is that even if you’re unsure about exactly how things are going to shake out, if you opt in to an income-driven repayment plan, because of how they’re calculating your monthly payment looking back at the previous year tax return, you’re going to have a very, very low — likely have a very, very low monthly payment. And so better than deferring, you can go into active repayment, and then obviously, you can start to pay it from there and get ahead of the interest over time. So thank you for sharing that. So you started with $160,000 from your pharmacy degree, you end up with $224,000. And I think my follow-up question to that is, as a new practitioner with life coming at you in many different angles and priorities, things that you want to do and accomplish, how does $224,000 of student loan debt, how does that practically hinder you as a new graduate? What impact has that had on you?
Brianne Porter: Yeah. It has been — I’m not going to lie to you. It’s been pretty awful, actually. And not to say that I don’t have a lot of good things in life, I definitely have much to be grateful for. But I had no idea how much this was going to really impact not just how I felt but other people in my life, how it was going to impact the decisions that I got to make, the things I got to do with my free time. So you know, for example, because of some other poor decisions, I also had some credit card debt, and so my credit score isn’t fantastic. And then I got married, and we wanted to buy a house. And we were able to buy the house. My husband, luckily, he had his undergraduate paid for as well and went straight into a job and was saving for several years. So he was very financially stable, actually, which was very lucky for me. So we were able to get a house, but it’s like, now we have the house, we have things that happen with the house, you have to repair an AC unit or a furnace or whatever the case may be. Or you have to get new windows, and these things come up. And because of my student loan debt and my monthly payment, we’re so strapped that it’s like, we can barely pay the bills that we have. We have a little to go into our emergency fund for those sort of things with the house or other things that might come up. But we do not go on vacations, we do not spend a lot of money on anything expensive. I mean, I can’t tell you the last time I went shopping for fun. I mean, I guess probably if you’re financially responsible, you’re really not just going shopping without a budget anyway, but I just have felt very strapped, quite the opposite of what I thought in pharmacy school and residency, to be honest. And it’s a real bummer.
Tim Ulbrich: And I think what you’re describing is what Jess and I felt, what I hear from so many other graduates is this feeling of, you know, I had one thing in mind of what this income would provide in terms of, you know, the feelings of that income. And then all of a sudden, it’s like, wow, I really feel like I’m living paycheck-to-paycheck despite this income. How is this happening? And obviously, as we’ve talked about many times before on this podcast, big student loan payments, other big purchases, a home, other priorities, quickly will evaporate the income that you have in any given month. So what I really want to find out from you is I know in our conversations before — which by the way, I’m very much looking forward to becoming a coworker of yours soon at The Ohio State University — so I’m pumped up to be working with you, but I know as we’ve talked before in different venues and settings is that I can tell you have an energy and a passion and a motivation to get after this whole topic of personal finance. And obviously, through you journey, I think it’s fair to say that you kind of wandered into this and really maybe didn’t always have that passion, energy or motivation. So what was the “Aha!” moment for you where you said, “There has got to be a different way of doing it.” Was it seeing that balance of $224,000? Or was it a combination of factors and things that came together?
Brianne Porter: Yeah, that’s a great question. So there’s a lot of things to address in your question here. I think the big “Aha!” moment, honestly, was not the balance. It still hadn’t hit me because really, if you’ve never had much money in life, that balance still doesn’t really mean anything to you. $224,000 I’m like, OK, well that’s six digits. What does that really mean? OK, I’ll tell you what it means. It means when you make a little over $100,000 a year, and you get your paycheck and taxes and everything else come out, your health insurance, all the things that you don’t account for when you think about that $100,000 income. My student loan payment was one-third of my take-home pay, which is significant, I think.
Tim Ulbrich: Yes. For sure.
Brianne Porter: And what my lender did, which was kind of sneaky, is they kind of started throwing the loans back one at a time. So my first payment was like a couple hundred dollars and then a little more and then a little more. But then my final payment came in, like the final amount that it was going to add up to, the first time was $2,300. Now, that’s a lot of money. You know? So it really hurt to pay that out on the beginning of the month and be like, wow, I just lost $2,300 this month.
Tim Ulbrich: That’s when it gets real, right? When you see that number, and you’re like, OK, here’s my paycheck after taxes, here’s what’s going toward student loans, here’s the house payment. And like you said earlier, what’s left after that? I mean, I think that’s the moment where it goes from almost feeling like Monopoly money to, ‘Holy crap, this is real. And I’ve got to do something about this.’ So one of the things I know is that you’ve been a really active member of the Facebook group, the YFP Facebook group — which for those that are not on there listening, please jump over and join the conversation. There’s so much support and encouragement and helping one another, it’s been really fantastic to be a part of. But it makes me want to ask the question, like for you, what role has community played in terms of people being around you and helping you on this journey? Whether it’s your spouse, peers, coworkers, family or friends. Talk a little bit about community aspect and accountability for you on this journey.
Brianne Porter: Yeah, I think that’s a good question. To be honest with you, when this all first started to unravel or kind of maybe unfold is a better word — when it started to unfold in front of me and I really realized the impact of the decisions that I had made, I was really embarrassed because it’s like, here I am, a pharmacist, I’ve got a Master’s degree, I mean, on paper, I look like I should be very intelligent, right? So how did I make these decisions? And how did I justify them in my head? So I think that I was really embarrassed that I wasn’t more intentional up front and that I really didn’t take that responsibility to just learn more about finances. I mean, totally honest here, I still don’t know a lot about financial things, which is why I purchased your book because I wanted to learn more about that. And so that’s really what kind of, you know, drew me in, but I was really embarrassed by that. Like I didn’t talk about it to anyone, and I didn’t talk about my debt, I didn’t talk about the choices that I had made. And I certainly didn’t want to ask other people because I didn’t want to then feel obligated to share, so I felt like I was really — especially when I started getting that payment every month, that bill and making that payment, I was really feeling very isolated and kind of trapped and just feeling almost like I couldn’t breathe. You know, I really felt like I was struggling to figure out how to manage with it and how to make decisions and what to do with it. And I think that the community that really helps me the most really is the Facebook group, the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group, which is why I’m so active on it. And I think that the thing that is so nice is to just get on there and see that I wasn’t the only person who made these decisions, and I’m not the only person who doesn’t know what certain things are when it comes to financial things, I guess, you know, financial terms. I don’t have any background in business. I never had to take any classes like that in any of my training, and I never opted to, so I really don’t know anything about it. And that group just made me feel like I wasn’t alone. And then I think it gave me the confidence to start talking about things a little bit more openly, so that was really powerful for me, actually, that group.
Tim Ulbrich: And so I want to follow up with that and talk a little bit about how you got to the decision of what your game plan is with your student loans. You know, we’ve talked a lot about on this podcast when we’ve done speaking events, there’s so much to be said for getting it right when it comes to having the optimal loan repayment strategy. And knowing you work for technically a PSLF-qualified employer, I know you and I have talked a little bit about refinance, you have all your federal options. So just walk us through briefly, what was your process or strategy to come up with your game plan when it came with why, for you, this was the option that you were going to go forward with in terms of paying back your student loans.
Brianne Porter: I appreciate you asking that question because it was actually, as I’m sure you know from some of our conversations, a journey that I really struggled with a lot, even once I started to get educated and really understand what the different options meant because that’s the first thing, right? When you’re a student and you’re doing the exit loan counseling, for any students listening, that is not good enough on its own. You have to learn more about what’s going on because I went through that counseling, and I still really didn’t understand what all of my loans were and what the payback plan for those were and what compounded interest is. Like I really didn’t understand any of that stuff. But once I became educated, again, through the Your Financial Pharmacist community and the book “The Seven Figure Pharmacist” and really understanding what those options were, sitting them down side-by-side, I still really struggled. And I’ll tell you why. So I owe $224,000, and as you mentioned, I work for an institution that would qualify for Public Service Loan Forgiveness. So yeah, sure, it probably makes a lot of sense to the average person to just say, well, you’re going to pay a lot less if you do Public Service Loan Forgiveness, so why wouldn’t you do an income-based repayment plan and go for that? But I am very risk-averse, actually, so to me this idea that that could go away at any time and I would have all of these small payments that I made that are really compounding interest as I went was very unnerving. Like it was keeping me up at night thinking about, can I really do this? Could I make this leap? So for the first year out of training, my first year as faculty at Ohio State, I actually opted into the 10-year standard repayment. And I did not refinance, which was another mistake that I’ve made. I’ve made every mistake you can possibly make. Yeah, I did not refinance. And for that first year, I was making those $2,300 a month payment. And the reason that I did that was the uncertainty of PSLF but then also, I’m the kind of person that I just like to attack something and get rid of it as soon as I can. And so I really just wanted to be done with this. I wanted to try to get this done in 10 years or less and know that I paid it all, I don’t owe anyone anything, and I’ve moved on. But kind of what we were talking about earlier, how that really impacted me, we were — my husband and I just felt very, we felt very trapped. We felt like we couldn’t do anything that was fun, we created a budget, and we were living by the budget. And that was really great, we paid off credit card debt, we paid off all kinds of other debt outside of this, actually. But we still felt like, wow, this is really strapping and is really suffocating in a lot of ways. And it just feels like we’re not really going anywhere, right? Because especially at the beginning, you’re kind of not really going anywhere. So at that point I realized I needed to either refinance or just go bite the bullet and go with PSLF and hopefully everything works out and the program continues or I’m grandfathered in or whatever the case may be if things were to change. And when we looked at refinancing, we found that even with the lowest possible rate that we could get, down around 4%, with my husband co-signing and everything, it was still only a matter of $300 or $400 difference a month. And so for us, that didn’t feel like enough to justify to continue on that repayment plan. So ultimately, I decided to opt into the income-based repayment plan. I get my first bill tomorrow, and I’m really excited to see that it’s over $1,500 difference. So you know, we want to look into investing and building our emergency fund more and things like that as well, but we are excited to have a little extra in there to be able to do something fun, you know, when we get the time or when the opportunity arises, very first world problems I’m talking about here.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, but I think your story is such an important one that matches up with so much of what we preach here on this podcast and even in the YFP student loan course is that there is no one right solution that we can blanket cover everyone and say, ‘This is the best option,’ right? You said something like, you know, these could keep me up at night. And for somebody else, that may be a very different scenario. Or maybe the math looks better on a refinance. And maybe somebody isn’t as interested in investing or maybe they’re not as conservative. So all the factors come together, and I’m so glad to hear you’ve thoughtfully walked through those and obviously worked with your significant other to do those, to say, OK, collectively for us, this is the plan going forward. And that may be very different for somebody else, and certainly that’s OK. And I want to go there then, since you mentioned even before and also through that last segment there, you know, your significant other obviously has become a very important part. You guys are in this together, you’re doing it together. He came in with no debt, right? You mentioned that earlier.
Brianne Porter: Right.
Tim Ulbrich: So I think I would love to hear from you, just what you’ve learned through that experience where maybe for others that are listening, one person’s coming in with a ton of debt or all the debt, somebody else has no debt. And just some of the feelings that you’ve had around that and how collectively, you’ve come together to work it out and say, OK, yep, we came in at different starting points, but we are a team, and we’re trying to do this together. So talk us through that.
Brianne Porter: So we — obviously, he came in, like you said, with no debt. And I came in with a lot of debt, so that was our first point of kind of not really being on the same page. But then we were also raised very differently financially. And so we approached finances in general very differently. So I think I talked a little bit earlier about how I was embarrassed about my debt and how I got there. And so to be honest with you, I was not up-front with him at first. It took me years of dating to really come clean about what I owed in student loan debt. And because we weren’t married, because we weren’t paying on it, I wasn’t paying on it at the time, he really, he didn’t know. And poor guy, I waited until we were engaged to drop that bomb on him. So he was in a situation, you know, he’s like, wow, what am I going to do now?
Tim Ulbrich: He’s not out now, right?
Brianne Porter: Yeah, but he’s a good sport. So he has — you know, and I said we’re very different in how we approach finances. I’m much more the — nowadays, at least — I’m much more the let’s count every penny, let’s keep track of every penny, let’s budget every penny. You know, I want to know where all my money is going now. And I’m very intentional. I learned my lesson, but I’m very intentional now. Maybe I was too intentional. But he is a lot more laid back and he is of the mindset that it all works out. So he’s on the opposite end of the spectrum. But because of that, he was very relaxed when I shared with him my student loan debt. And he said, you know, we learn lessons. That’s what life is about. But what are we going to do moving forward? And I think that was the biggest thing is just coming clean about it and then really sitting down and coming up with a plan versus his motto, he’s very laissez faire about things, and he’s very comfortable being like, we’ll fix it out. But at that point, we both agreed, we need a plan. This is very significant. We need to plan moving forward.
Tim Ulbrich: Well and just kudos to him to embrace that and say, “Hey, this is what it is. And it’s now our problem collectively, and we’ve got to figure this out together to have a plan.” And I think that’s great advice for those that are listening that may be struggling through or maybe even people that are in that dating phase. And you know, I think my advice would be the earlier, the better. You know you can get some of these topics on the table. And I know for Jess and I, personal finance wasn’t something we talked about before we got married. And all of a sudden, you’re thrown into it, and you’re dealing with it. Now you’re coming up with the questions of should we merge our accounts and how do we budget together? What goals are we trying to achieve? You know, all of these factors come together and so obviously, the earlier the conversations, the better. So two questions I have left for you are a little bit lighter questions, but I think part of your journey here is to share with others to hopefully help them along their journey as well. So pharmacist peers that are listening or students that are still in school, what are a couple pieces of advice you would have for them in terms of, you know, how they can prevent maybe some of the mistakes that you made along the way.
Brianne Porter: For pharmacists, I guess I would say those of you who are in my shoes right now, you’re now practicing, you’re making a little bit more than a resident or a student would make, it’s just don’t be afraid to jump in. I know I’ve been at a lot of your presentations and on your webinars, Tim, and you talk about this a lot. Like the first thing is be real and look at your numbers and just get down with that. And so I think that’s, you know — I heard you say that, but I think that when you’re always thinking about what do I have and you haven’t really wrestled with the numbers yet, you haven’t been plain with yourself about what’s actually there, that looming concern about what might be there or what that looks like is sometimes twice as bad as what’s actually there. So I would say just take a look, be really honest (gap), think about what motivates you. I know you’ve also talked about motivation quite a bit. And I think that’s really what it comes down to. Like you said, there’s no right answer for anyone. But if you avoid and you don’t confront this problem, like no matter who you are or what motivates you, that for sure is not going to be a successful thing. I can tell you from experience, it’s not successful. I guess for the residents, I would say dont’ defer. Like you mentioned earlier, Tim, even that income-based — you’re a resident, your income-based payment is going to be next to nothing. There’s literally no reason not to make those payments. So I definitely would not defer during residency. And then for the students, my best piece of advice is if you’re being offered the maximum amount or fill-in-the-blank, just put your hand over the maximum amount and pretend like it’s not being offered to you and actually calculate what you need, even if you’re just making approximations and you want to just slightly overask to meet, that’s fine. But if you just automatically select, you know, taking out the max amount, you’re always going to use that. No matter what, you’re going to put that money to use, and you’re going to owe it at the end. And you, trust me when I say you cannot appreciate how much money that is right now when you’re a student. You just cannot.
Tim Ulbrich: Great wisdom there. I wish I would have heard all three of those things through my phases as a new practitioner, as a resident and as a student. So you alluded to earlier that, you know, I think for you maybe this topic is one that you haven’t necessarily had as much education previously on and maybe one that doesn’t come as naturally. But obviously, you’re committed to learning more about the topic in terms of your own professional development. So what works for you in terms of learning more about this topic? Is it books? Is it podcasts? Is it webinars? What is the strategy that you have to develop yourself in this area?
Brianne Porter: Well, obviously, Your Financial Pharmacist teaches me a lot.
Tim Ulbrich: That’s a good one, yes.
Brianne Porter: But in all seriousness, I do tend to really utilize the resources of the Your Financial Pharmacist community as my primary source. If you think about how you approach Pub Med searching — I’m going to go nerdy here for a second — but I always, you know, when you find a good article, and then you look at the other references that that article has referred to or referenced. I kind of approach this the same way. I have found this resource to be extremely valuable for me. The book has been very eye-opening as far as really putting things into perspective and being at the level for someone who doesn’t have a lot of background knowledge on the topic, that I can actually understand what’s going on. And then a lot of things that I hear on here or read in a book, kind of resourcing out from there. I think podcasts are really helpful for me because I can listen while I drive and then that’s where I do a lot of thinking versus the book where it’s easy to kind of passively read and not take it all in. But I definitely find this community to be extremely valuable and a great resource. And like I said, you can then find other resources from Your Financial Pharmacist. But it’s been my main source.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, thank you for the shout-out. And I think my encouragement to the audience would be, if it is YFP, great. I’m glad to hear that. If it’s not, find whatever resource is going to keep you motivated on this topic and keep you learning. It’s a lifelong journey of learning and making mistakes, and learning and growing and making mistakes, and learning and growing, and you repeat that cycle over and over again. So if it’s YFP, if it’s something else, making a commitment to develop yourself in this area of personal finance. So Brianne, I want to again just thank you for your vulnerability, your willingness to share your story with our listeners. And I know this topic can feel so overwhelming and weighty at times. And I think it’s easy to avoid the pain, as you mentioned, wish it all weren’t there, turn the other way. And what I love about your story is you are choosing differently. You’re choosing to embrace the pain, you’re choosing to dig in, make a commitment to turn the ship around and invest in yourself in the future. So what an incredible, and I’m hopeful we can have you back on the show to share your debt-free journey and to talk about what life is going to look like once you have all of those loans paid off. So thank you again for coming on the show.
Brianne Porter: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me, Tim.
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